THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: Paul Forchheimer and Ernest Speck
DATE: May 9, 1988
PLACE: Alpine , Texas
INTERVIE~vERS: Bill and Precious Gregg
BG: Well, we're start ing the t ape , now, with Mr. Ferch­heimer
and he will be the first one to speak.
F: Thank you very much. Don't say Mr. Forchheimer. That
was my father. (laughter)
BG: Quote , "not in this hall," and that's Precious.
F: Okay. Going back to the early days, about 1922 and
1923, when my folks first came here, the time we moved out
here, and at that time my two sisters, my mother and father,
of course , and I was 6 years old at the time and ready for
the first grade. And, I don't know if I was ready or not,
but it was time for it - the age.
And, so, at that time we had a very neat situation, in
west Texas at least, and probably most towns because of Sul
Ross University at that time; Sul Ross State Teacher's
College. They had one building and it is now the
administration building. Of course, then it housed every
thing. And included in the set-up was a practice school, a
school for practice teachers, since it was a normal college
and we went up there, some of us who were fortunate. I
don't remember how it was selected. Maybe 20 kids in the
FORCHHEIMER 2
F: first grade, 2nd grade and 3rd grade went to school at
the University. And it had a lot of wonderful advantages
because of small classes, of course. And we had a lady by
the name of Miss Clemma Billingsley who taught a great many
first graders and got us all started. I started to say if
not by our shoulders, by the seat of our pantsl In those
days, as you all well know, she was a strict disciplinarian,
so we got off to a good start.
And in those days we had recess. I guess it was recess
everywhere, but I had never been to recess before, because I
was in kindergarten but we moved out here from New York and
it was all new and s~ange. And we had recess about 10:30 in
the morning. It was also a break for the college students.
So there was a rocky field, I guess you'd call it, in back
of the college which was pretty well cleared off and we
would play soccer and sometimes the grade school kids would
win it and sometimes the college kids would win it. But we
had an awful good time and I think it helped integrate us
into the real world. Finding out that at that time there
were grown-ups who were college people and it was a lot of
fun. It's one of the big advantages in going into grade
school in a small community.
My father, of course, this was in 1922, 1923, was a
merchant. And it was a pretty good culture shock, you'd
normally expect, to come from New York to Alpine, Texas.
And he was a very friendly, very out-going type individual
and he caught on real well. And he developed over the years
FORCHHEIMER
F: a very good business, primarily with ranchers and
railroad workers and college students, whatever we had.
3
That was really before the days of tourism. So my
father soon developed a fantastic hat business. And the
reason he developed such a good business, he had a keen mind
and as you probably may, or may not know, hats in t hose days
were very, very important. Everybody wore a hat - straw, or
felt. Primarily then it was mostly felt hats. So somebody
would come in and buy a hat. Maybe six months, maybe a
year, maybe a few years later thay'd come in and say,
everybody's name whose is Forchheimer, or everybody called
him Louis, so the man would come in and say, "I need a
hat."
And my father would say, "Yeah, you wear a seven a nd an
eighth, don't you?" And everybody would be amazed, "How can
this fellow, selling as many hats as he does remember my
size?"
Well, I soon learned how he did it. There are really
three sizes that 90 percent of the people wear- 7, 7 1/8
and 7 l/4, that takes care of 90. There are a few 6 7/8, a
few 6 3/4 and then 7 3/8, 7 1/2 and 7 5/8. And almost
anybody who wears a big hat wears a long oval because his
head is this way, kind of melon shaped almost. So people
thought, "here's a man who really knows his business. He
can just look at my head and remember what size hat I wear."
So that was one of his •••
PG: ••• the real personal touch.
FORCHHEIMER 4
F: The real personal touch and of course there's no
substitute. Unfortunately there's not enough of that left
anymore. And in those days it was ? before you opened your
store, 7 o'clock in the morning, because that's when people
got up and went out to the ranch to work and a lot of people
didn't get back 'til 6:30 or 7:00. So a 12 hour day was not
unusual at all. And Saturdays, of course, was from 7:00 in
the morning 'til 9:00 or maybe 10:00 at night.
So nobody at the time thought they were put upon. This
was just the way business was transacted. And my father was
originally from Germany. And he had inculcated in him the
work ethic. And when he first came to this country, I think
he was 18 years old , he ended up in New York and he went to
work in Patterson, New Jersey, as bobbin boy, in t he silk
mills. And they made the princely salary of $1.50 a week.
So, as the story goes, it cost him a dollar a week for room
and board and 50 cents went to learn Engl ish - English
lessons.
So he had a very good command of the language, but even
at that time, having spoken German for 18 years, he still
had a pretty good accent. He couldn't say "value," he 'd say
"walue." He couldn't say "volume ," he'd say "wolume ." But
instead of - it was a quaintness that many of the old-timers
in Texas had. Whatever part of Europe they came from they
retained a little of the twang. And, of course, that's one
of the things that made him interesting to an awful lot of
people .
FORCHHEIMER 5
F: In the Institute of Texan Cultures when they first
started with Hemisfair, I believe it was, one of the great
introductions to the World's Fair then was the movie that
they showed, and the name of it is, "My name is Pablo." And
then it went on and it introduced various people from
Czechoslovakia, from Germany, from whatever and Pablo, of
course, was the Mexican origin. And I never have forgotten
that because ...
BG: It was a good show.
F: It was a good show, and it made an awful lot of people
realize the diversity of really, the Texas cultures. And it
was one of those things that's the great, great thing about
Texas, or about the rest of the world. But in Texas it
didn't make any difference where you came from very much,
except that you were a good person and that's what counted.
And this tradition happily, I think, still remains;
certainly in west Texas.
In those days, and I'm sure in a lot of small towns,
there was no public transportation. So it didn't make any
difference what part of town you lived in, you walked to
school in the morning. You went home for lunch, walked back
from lunch and as quickly as possible so that you could play
ball before school took over again.
And we were singularly fortunate I believe, because
later on when they built the 2nd building, which was the
Library Building, they incorporated the high school. So we
were extremely fortunate that we had the top floor of the 3
FORCHHEIHER 6
F: story building which was the Library. The middle floor
at that time was not occupied so the Alpine High School used
it. So we had the advantage of the tremendous library
compared to what a local library would be. We had good
labs, and it was just a wonderful experience. The - there
again the advantages of living in a small town and being
completely free to come and go as you pleased , you knew
everybody in town.
everybody's dog by
do.
Everybody knew you. I n fact, you knew
name. And it was just a super thing to
Of course, at that time the Southern Pacific had two
very, very good trains that are even known to this day. The
Sunset Limited and the Argonaut , both of t hem from San
Francisco to New Orleans. And the high point of the day was
to go down to the depot about 3:30 in t he afternoon and o ne
train carne in from the west at 3:30 and the other came in at
3:20, crossed here. So it was something - the idol of all
young men, to these young boys, was to be a passenger
engineer someday. And it was a lot of fun and the e ng ineers
were eventually the idols of the children .
In those days, it was remarkable and most people
enjoyed despite the fact that we were as isolated then as we
are now. Living in Alpine had terrific cultural advantages
because of the university and we got to see a touring group
of an opera every once in awhile , various concerts and
things of that nature.
PG: Would they stop at Uvalde and come on-swing over here?
FORCHHEI~fER 7
F: Probably. They 'd go to Uvalde, Alpine and maybe El
Paso. And it was a treat . Of course, we'd have good
lectures. And nobody felt intellectually deprived because
there was enough to do to keep you busy. And at that time
we had the beginnings of a good little local library which
is still here . It flourished, it still flourishes. It
started in a little house by the side of the creek and
expanded 3 times. But later it began to outgrow itself.
And certain well-meaning people thought: Well, we ought to
have a real public library. So somebody from Austin , by
that time they had developed a State Library, came out and
wanted to really build a first class library - "first class"
in parenthesis. Quotation marks, I should say.
And the town rejected it and the reason they did, and
the original library is still there , is now encompassing 3
homes - it was so informal - various homes that the kids
from 5 years up felt at home. It was family style and still
is. And if you all get a chance, I'd like for you to look
at it , because this had an awfu l lot to do with the
upbringing of a lot of kids. You felt just as much at home
in the library - no polished desks, you know, no good
furniture ...
PG: Just comfortable.
F: Comfortable, and people donated books and people
donated book shelves. So you felt at home.
PG: And you were a part of it.
F: That 's right. And nobody had to teach you to be quiet
FORCHHEIMER 8
F: because you knew you were quiet in there. And because
it encompassed maybe 8 or 12 rooms in the 3 houses put
together, you could go off in a nook and read and that is
just one of the things that made it a wonderful way to grow
up.
In those days, the big social and, I guess it was a
social, it wasn't cultural exactly. A big social, I'm sure
it was true of a lot of west Texas towns, Pecos still has
it, was the 4th of July Rodeo.
And that was the highpoint with a big parade,
horseback. And the cowboys would come in, and the kids were
thrilled beyond anything you could think of. Ranchers would
bring in extra horses and the kids would ride them in the
parades. And that was a wonderful event. And by the same
token, I wouldn't say every Saturday night, but maybe
Saturday night once a month, there was a town dance up in
the old court house on the 3rd floor, I think it was 3
floors - on the top floor. They had it in the big court
room. They took out all the chairs and brought them out
PG: That gives them a different atmosphere, doesn't it?
F: Yeah. And they had a couple of fiddlers and everybody,
from the kids on up, went and it was an awful lot of fun.
And in those days - this sounds like an old, old man
talking -maybe it is, people didn't really have to be
entertained. They entertained themselves. And there's a
lot of advantages of growing up as a cowboy - as a country
FORCHHEIMER 9
F: boy. I remember the time when the big coronation in
England, this must have been in the early thirties, who was
?
PG: Queen Elizabeth and King George?
F: Queen Elizabeth, yeah, they had a coronation. And
would you believe there were, I'd say between Alpine and
Marfa and Fort Davis, maybe 6 or 8 couples attended the
coronation. So despite the fact that we were isolated, it
didn't mean that people weren't interested in traveling,
even then. And when they'd have a special presentation of a
road show on Broadway, no less in El Paso, it's amazing the
number of people who'd take their car and go to El Paso.
Because we were so far away from that type of thing, we made
it a point - our parents made it a point that we would see
whatever there was to see. And we did.
PG: And stay in touch with the cultural world.
F: That's right. And my folks, having come from New York,
still subscribed to the New York Times which is still a
wonderful paper and even then - I mean that name
particularly. We read the book reviews, we read about the
plays, we read about whatever was going on in New York and
the magazine section particularly.
As I remember, we got the paper on a Wednesday or
Thursday, which was probably faster than we would get it
today, because that was in the days, when mail as you
remember, was sorted on the train. And the service was
remarkably good.
FORCHHEIMER 10
F: The - later on, maybe, I guess I was an adult, and I
had left after my first year at Sul Ross and went to the
University of Texas, after I got out of the University, I
stayed in Austin and worked for a radio station, KNOW, and
then the war came and I went to war and then came back. And
my wife and I had met at the University and married during
the war and when we came back, I was in the advertising
business in San Antonio.
And my father was not particularly well and we thought,
"Well, we'd better go out to Alpine and help him out with
the store." Which we did. This was about 1952. So about
1954, or 1955, Dr. Katherine Boyd, who was the head of the
drama department at Sul Ross, had the idea of community
theater - a theater in the round. So half of us were in the
business and sciences and various fields and ready for
anything and we had a good smattering of people from the
University. So she formed the Theater in the Round. And we
put, if I do say so myself, some fantastic ••. as you know,
a good director can find talent that nobody knew existed.
And that was the forerunner and it kept growing and growing
and growing and because it was in the round, it required no
staging, you might say, and it grew to the point where it is
now the Summit Theater and they have a long seson, about 3
months,at the special arena - not an arena - an amphitheater
that was built for it. And this more or less in the
tradition of the culture that started then and has increased
over the years.
FORCHHEIMER 11
F: And one of the great things of being in a small town
with a good University is, I would say, at any given time,
the dramatic productions at the University. Probably half
of them are University students and, if need-be, people
from the town, almost invariably, even down into high school
and junior high and grade school, like The King and I, where
it uses children, and things like that.
And these are very, very pleasant memories because we
didn't, when you participate in something you - as you
become a part of it. So that was a wonderful experience.
And year after year after year, as long as I can remember,
we've had productions that were so far above our
capabilities that they were wonderful .•.
PG: Do you have people who sing in choirs ••• ?
F: We do that. We have a wonderful symphony orchestra;
the University and townspeople and if necessary, we import
some specialists from other places and even El Paso.
PG: So .•• ?
F: That's right. Or if the ? section isn't big enough,
you bring in one from somewhere.
PG We've got a friend in our church choir and he's the
head bass - the principal bass for the San Antonio Symphony
and he and Bill are tenors and I'm a soprano, fading a
little bit, but still enjoying the music. But it ties us in
with the symphony, doing that, too. But we've been going to
since we got there in 1951.
F: Well, I used to live in San Antonio after the war. I
FORCHHEIMER 12
F: was in the advertising business and we worked for the
symphony. Dr. Max Ritter was the conductor at that time.
And a wonderful guy. San Antonio developed a wonderful,
wonderful symphony. I'm sure it's still tops.
PG: Well, it's doing pretty well. It's had its struggles
with management.
F: Well, what symphony hasn't?
PG: That's true. How do you get your funding? By local
F: Part from the University and we have in the community
an organization called the Committee of a Hundred. It
started with, I don't know how many people are in it now,
that either contribute a certain amount of money each year
and if you don't have money, you contribute a bake - you
contribute something for a bake sale, or every once in
awhile they have a- I wouldn't call it a rummage sale­there's
a nicer word for it.
PG:
F: A bidding on antiques and ..•
PG: Oh, silent auction.
F: Yeah. And people would contribute and they would
become members of the Committee of a Hundred.
BG: Things that are "too good to be threw."
F: Exactly. Exactly. So one thing is unique. I like to
think it's unique. Several years ago my mother, who has
since passed on, was 65 or 66 and she'd got her degree from
Sul Ross. Her education had been interrupted when she got
FORCHHEIMER 13
F: married and started having children and after the
children were grown she went back to school ~ore or less to
do the things she liked to do. She liked to ? and read.
She liked history and one day one of her professors
came to her and says, "Matilda, do you know that if you take
2 or 3 courses you have enough hours for a degreee." So,
even at her age, she had no difficulty in taking PE as a
college course. And she got her degree. And, of course,
the people - the family was intensely proud. So this was a
number of years ago when Dr. Willenthall was Pres i dent of
the University. So she , like a great many people at that
time, graduated in the summer session. And I'd say 50
percent of the graduating class then were people getting
advanced degrees, largely school teachers who went summer
after summer after summer until they got their mas ters. As
well as the bachelor program and what-not.
So I'd say half of the class were Latins who had been
teaching all over and were good teachers and interested
enough to go to work and get their advance degree. So the -
we'd gone out to lunch in honor of the occasion and we were
in the big auditorium and at the commencement address and
Dr. Wellenthall, bless his heart, had invited as the guest
speaker a member of the Board of Regents who had recently
been appointed . I'm not sure but his name was Sm i th, I
believe it was a fellow by the name of Smith.
So, a s I said we'd been t o lunch and got there a little
late, so we were sitting in the rear of the auditorium,
FORCHHEI~1ER 14
F: probably the last row. So this fellow Smith gets
introduced and he gets up and he says, "I've had a long talk
while I've been here with Dr. Willenthall and I want to tell
you that I like his attitude." He said, "We shouldn't waste
our time on research and we shouldn't waste our time on
things that don't matter. " He says, "We have to get down
to basics ." And he kept rambling and it was a Red Neck
speech if you ever heard one in your life. Exactly the
antithesis that you'd expect from a University or college.
So he kept rambling and he said, "One thing we ought to have
is America for Americans. Them that don't belong, they
should go home or get out." And there is an audience of 50
percent ethnics. He kept ranting in that way. And when I
first heard it I thought, "I can't believe what I'm
hearing." So I got up and walked mid-way down and found a
seat and when he was doing it. He rambled like that and
rambled like that. And everybody in the graduating was so
furious you could just feel the anger seething. But it
finally came to an end. Normally after graduation cermonies,
the dean and president and all that, congratulate the
speaker, but nobody said a word. The dean says , "We will
now adjourn to the Student Union Building and will have a
reception . "
And people had tears in their eyes they were so mad at
what this fellow had said. So we went over to the Student
Union Building for the reception. And poor Regent Smith was
standing there. Normally you go up and shake his hand but
he was just as •••
FORCHHEIMER
PG:
F:
Ignored?
Ignored.
15
People just couldn't bring about- couldn't
be hypercritical. So at that time, a friend of mine who had
been a professor here and has since gone to Baylor Dr. ?
He says, "Paul I want to tell you . This is the most
marvelous community I've ever seen." I said, "v7hat do you
mean by that?" He said , "Despite the fact that this man was
making everybody angry and contrary to what we know and
believe, not one single person got up. They gave the man
the courtesy of hearing him out." He said, "This is a
wonderful, wonderful community."
I'd never looked at it that way before. But he was
right! Where ever is a community now, and no matter how you
disagree with an individual, you give him the courtesy of
hearing him out without any rabble rousing ••.
PG: Rudeness.
F: So I think that paints a pretty good picture of the
feeling in our community and it's been that way as long as I
can remember.
PG: Where did your Dad get his hats from? Did they come
from New York?
F: They came from John B. Stetson up in Philadelphia ,
Pennsylvania. Stetson at that time was the big name . And
like most merchants of his day , most stores, you have a
little bit of everything . It wasn't exactly a general store
but anything anybody needed we had. And it was a very , very
rewarding, particularly for a kid, there was no question of
FORCHHEIMER 16
F: any idleness. When school was out , from the 3rd grade
on, you went on t o the store and you carried out •••
PG: Your part.
F: Yeah. You emptied the trash, swept the floor, you went
to the post office, and when your farmer friends, whose
fathers weren't in bus iness, if they worked on a ranch, it
didn't make any difference, there were chores to be done .
And you didn't fee l put upon because that was the natural
thing to do.
BG: Say you didn't know any better.
F: That is a good way to express it.
PG: Well, when did you actually get to sell something? I
imagine that was a big moment.
F: Well , that was a big moment, but I can best express it
by - after my father died and we had moved out here, he died
shortly after we had moved here, my son who was, I guess
about six, kept pestering us - he wanted to sell. So finally
at Christmastime before anybody knew what was happening , my
son would stand there and the minute a customer would come
in he'd go like that, you know. And particicularly if it
was a friend. And he'd say, a friend of his by the name of
Frosty Walker kids and David says, "Can I help you?" Frosty
said, "Yeah, David," he says, "I want a present for my Dad."
So David, who had heard all the other salespeople, says,
"Well, what about a billfold." "Naw, he 's got a billfold."
Well, what about a shirt?" "Well, he's got a s hirt." And
Frosty says, "You know, I think he can use a tie." And David
says, (claps his hands) "Yeah, that's a good idea." He
FORCHHEIHER 17
F: says, "What size?" (laughter)
So it was fun - I'm sure I must have gone through the
same things. I mean when I was a kid. I must have been 9
or 10, a lady came in an~everybody else was busy so I
approached her. And I says, "Can I help you, Mrs.
So-and-So?" And she said, "Yeah, I want a bra." So I
turned all shades. And this lady who is not above speaking
her mind, called over to my dad. She says, "Louis, why
don't you have somebody who isn't embarrassed when you ask
for a dog?" And these are part of the things that make
growing up and working an awful lot of fun.
PG: There are always some outspoken people, aren't there?
F: And in those times bra just wasn't a word that wasn't
in - it was a lady's word.
At that time we had some wonderful experiences. Young
people growing up. Down at Terlingua at that time we had
probably one of the largest quicksilver mines in the world
and about once a month the wagons would come up with the
quicksilver in 100 pound flasks. I think the flasks
actually weighed 65 pounds and there was 35 pounds of
quicksilver in them. And they came up by mule train.
And they parked in the area right by the railroad and
unloaded there into box cars where they had racks built in
them. And it was a fascinating sight to see. It took 7
days to come up from Terlingua and they would load up with
gasoline and whatever they needed to make the long trip
back. And that went on for, I guess, until '28 or '29
FORCHHEit-1ER 18
F: because mules and wagons were cheaper than trucks.
And it was, at that time they had a cavalry post in Ft.
Russell over in Marfa. And every once in awhile the
soldiers would go out on bivouac, come through Alpine on
their way and we'd go out at night and see them camp and see
their horses and what-not. In retrospect, we were growing
up in an area where a lot of things were happening. And it
was really wonderful to be a part of it. How much time do
you want?
BG: All the time you'll give us, sir.
I've got another side to this.
Earlier you said something about not failing to tell us
some interesting stories about your dad. Did you hit those?
F: Well, like the hat incident, and my father was now
considered old-fashioned. He looked at things very, very
simply. There were 2 classes of people. Those who worked
and those who didn't work. If you worked, you were extended
credit, he'd lend you money, he'd do anything he could. If
you didn't work, nothing. And after being i n business, I
guess, 35 years maybe, when he died and having extended a
lot of credit to an awful lot of people, I think his credit
law suits were probably $150.00. So he was a pretty good
judge of character.
And, one of the things, I think, that was extremely
interesting he was from Germany as I said, And in Germany
PG: What part of Germany?
FORCHHEIMER 19
PG: Wha t part of Germany?
F: From Bavaria, southern part of Germany , a little town
called Fortheirn. Where all the Forchheimers came from, on
the Rhine River.
And he was brought up as I guess most Germans were at
that time, that Herr Doctor ? who was a professor was highly
respected. So my father, when he first carne out here, if he
didn't know anybody, he'd say, "Hi, professor." Or some­times,
"Hi, doctor." It was a compliment. ' Course they
didn't take it as such because they didn't know the
background.
But one morning, and I say early in the morning , one
morning a fellow in khakis spent the night at the hotel and
my father was open early in the morning and this man came
i n. My Dad looked up and he needed to cash a check. My
father , of course, had never seen him before. So he says ,
"Hi professor." The fellow looked at him and they got to
talking and the man explained that he would like t o cash a
check. He was the superintendent for Big Bend National
Park. So, not having seen him before, my father still didn 't
know who he was but that was enough introduction, you might
say , to warrant cashing a check.
So my father cashed a check for him and he thanked him.
My father says, "Nothing to it , Doc." Well , that was Ross
Maxwell, first superintendent of Big Bend National Park
who ' d come out , not to open it, but to start it you might
say. And he was mightly impressed. Here was a man he had
FORCHHEIMER
F: never seen before . But he called him doctor and of
course, he was Dr. Maxwell- but professors •••
PG: What date was that?
20
F: This was about 1938 - 39 because , maybe a little
earlier than that , because the Park wasn 't r eally dedicated
until 1943 or 1944. So Ross never knew that my father
called everybody either doctor or p rofessor and he was very ,
very much impressed that this merchant in a small town,
especially, knew who he was.
And Ross told me that story and said how much he was
impressed and however never said anything . But I knew my
father had inadvertently called him the 2 titles that he
would respond to.
Another thi ng that was typical of its time . Of course
cattle business was the big thing a nd ranchers always talked
about business with my father. And how much they were go i ng
to get for their catt le , you know , and this type of thing.
So an elderl y man , Mr. J.V. Jackson of the Pioneers who
donated the 4-square box - where would the col lege -
athletic department, which is stil l called Jackson Field ,
because Mr. Jackson donated the l and and Mr . Jackson donated
the land across the street where the school is now used to
be the high school.
So old man J . V. Jackson was gett ing on. He was up in
his 80s. So it was cattle shipping time, cattle sel ling
time, and he was in the store and my father says, "Well , Mr.
J.V. ," he says , "how much did you get for your cows?"
FORCHHEIMER
F: So Mr. J.V. says, "I got .•• "whatever it was a
poundage.
21
So my father says, "Well, that's not a bad price." He
says, "You know at that price I'd a bought 'em myself." So
Mr. Jackson misunderstood what my father said. So the next
morning about 8:00 o'clock, in back of the store, of course ,
it was all vacant land then , delivered, I think, about 50
head of cattle. So, to make a long story short , my father
returned them in very short order.
But another thing that was lots of fun for a kid
growing up, all my school mates and most of my friends were
ranch kids. So at round-up time, at a time everything was
shipped by rail - either the Santa Fe or the Southern
Pacific. And whenever the cattle drives began, they'd drive
them up from wherever the ranch was. The town kids were
always invited to go out to the stock pens, help load the
cows which was - in those days you got a coffee can and
filled it full - half full of rocks and this was the noise
you - you got behind driving the cows up and they responded.
So you always got a feed with the chuckwagon. And that was
an awful lot of fun.
BG: Looking at your things on the wall - when did you go to
Japan?
F: We went to Japan in 1975 and after - well 1974, or
1975. In 1976, we sold the store. My kids weren't
interested in it and it was fun while it lasted and we
thought enough was enough. So I got interested in the travel
FORCHHEIMER 22
F: business and we got into the travel agency in '76. And
it was a wonderful, wonderful, - has been a wonderful
experience becausee it's cash business . You don't have to
worry about carrying accounts. And the most important thing
of all, no inventory which was getting to be a bugaboo. And
now
PG: ••• it's just unbelievable.
F: It really is. The way costs have escalated you're
getting to the point, for example, one year when we took
i nventory in January, I think our stock of blue jeans alone,
just Levis, was between 15 and 20 thousand dollars. And I
started getting scared. But that's a small portion of it.
And I thought - and that's when things really began to
escalate. We carried an enormous inventory. And I thought
now's as good a time as any to get out. So it was a
pleasure to get into the travel business. And before then
we had travelled quite a bit and after we got in the travel
~(~
business , naturally that's one of the quirks of the business
is you travel an awful lot because •••
PG: You're testing out.
F: You're testing and if you haven't been there you don't
sell it.
PG: That's true, because there ' s lots of things - well, and
you don't sell it well because knowing how they 're received
when they get there •.• We lived in England for 2 years and
FORCHHEIMER 23
F: Oh, how lucky.
PG: And in Japan for 2 years ...
BG: From England to Japan
2 years each place.
F: Wonderful! What were you doing there?
BG: Navy.
F: Super! What else?
PG: He's a retired Navy Commander, so .••
BG: We came to San Antonio my last tour of Navy duty. I
went there as skipper of the Naval Printing Center. She's a
native Texan and all that military medical and so forth and
the kids were just getting into school, we decided to stay
here. It was a happy choice.
F: San Antonio is a wonderful, wonderful town.
PG: Well, we got to take our children with us to England
and Japan and they don't- the youngest who were just 1 1/2
and 3 1/2 when we left England, doesn't remember that too
much, but some of the things come back to them off and on.
But from Japan on we got back in '59 or '60 •..
BG: '58, summer of '58 •••
PG: And they had really had 2 marvelous, broadening
experiences. And we took them out in the countryside and
drove around and even in Japan we were stationed on the
Island of Kyushu, the lowest one on the golf course, the
cows w~re feeding on the grass.
~
BG: The wonderful thing about that was, we got to visit
Japanese and they came to visit us because it wasn't •..
FORCHHEIMER 24
BG: Tokyo, New York City, it was. But we were down in the
country.
? put you in the rocking chair?
F: Well, that was more or less, .~.when we sold the
retail store all the merchants on Holland Avenue were nice
enough to commemorate the •••
BG: That's their signatures, of course, down there?
F: Well, you know better than anybody how rewarding it is
to travel.
PG: Oh, goodness, yes.
F: And ••. my wife and I were singularly fortunate to be
able to go to China on probably the 2nd or 3rd language ?
school, they just opened it up.
And, of course, it was so unique at that time, that you
walk out of a restaurant, or walk out of your hotel and as
one member of our group - it was primarily of travel
agencies, expressed it, says, "Now I know how a Hollywood
celebrity feels." Because the minute you stopped you ' d be
surrounded and they would look up, maybe six inches and they
all tried to
PG: Express themselves.
F: Express themselves and you used just what English they
knew. And it was a wonderful, wonderful .••
PG: ? schooling here and with the German background, did
they teach both German and Spanish , or just Latin?
F: No, they spoke, they taught - Latin was available but I
opted for Spanish. Of course, I've always been glad that I
FORCHHEIMER 25
F: did because then you used it. The help in the house
were Spanish, the customers in the store spoke Spanish so it
didn't take long to become fluent because you used it every
day .
PG: Yes, that's true. When you apply it, it makes a
difference.
F: It sure does.
BG: How about the gavel? I see a gavel over there.
F: Oh, I was president a couple of times for the Chamber
of Commerce.
BG: I don't see any Masonic emblems on your wall.
F: Well, they're not on the wall because I haven't been
home, but I was ••• enjoyed that. I don't participate •••
I'm what they call now, and you will recognize it, is an
"eating Mason." When they have a dinner or something like
that, I make it.
BG: Fork and knife.
F: And, I've been I guess 30 - 35 years now I've been a
Rotararian and that's a very rewarding ..•
BG: What night do the Masons meet here?
F: I know there's a lodge in Alpine. I hate to tell you,
I don't know. They have certain stated meetings, as you
know, and then they call them.
BG: Oh, I know. I'm secretary of my lodge now; past
Master.
F: Then you know. It's been a number of 566 is a good
lodge and it's been around for a long, long time.
FORCHHEIMER 26
BG: They have an annual deal out here and I've been meaning
every year since - we get t he advertisement - "We got to go
out this year."
F: It's in May every year. And it's a super duper event.
The Masons , of course , do all the cooking and people come
from far and near.
BG: Maybe next year.
F: We hope so.
PG: When did the Rotary start here?
F: It must have been, I'd say, about 1920 .
END OF TAPE I, SIDE 1, 45 MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
BG: ••. when they built the dam at Del Rio and folks didn 't
want to lose all those pictographs, so they - Sul Ross here ,
decided to go down and do an expedition survey and now we
hear more about it from Mr. Forchheimer.
PG: Who was the person who
F: The person who had the idea, and followed through on
it, was Miriam Lorance, who at that time was head of the Art
Department at Sul Ross. So she took a group of graduate
students and they were doing rubbings and t hey came to one
cave that went back quite far and they saw some
hieroglyphics or pictographs that they couldn't identify
with the rest of the things they were finding. And it
disturbed them because they didn't know at all what it was.
So they took rubbings. And at that time Antioch College in
Ohio had one of the best departments on Antiquities, I
guess, in the country.
FORCHHEIMER 27
F: So they sent it there to see if they could translate
it. And it turned out they could. These hieroglyphics were
written at the time of the Roman Empire and translated it
said, "We are a group of Roman soldiers." Nobody up until
then had ever dreamed that anybody but Indians had ever
traversed this area.
The Roman soldiers had landed, probably in the Gulf
area, maybe Brownsville, wherever the ships took them, and
walked up the Rio Grande. And they walked and they walked
and they walked and finally in the cave was written, "We are
Roman soldiers and we know not why we were selected for this
to die in the desert when our families know nothing about
where we are •.• " Of course
PG: Poignant.
F: Yeah. And they had just about given up because
whatever they thought existed here, it was harsh, rugged
country. And here we are destined to die in this God
forsaken country. And gave the equivalent of whatever date
it was. And this was the first inkling that anybody knew
that the Romans had penetrated this part of the United
States. In fact, up until then I don't think they even knew
that there were any Romans in the United States.
BG: No. First I've heard of it.
F: Yes. So Dr. Lorance is still around. She is very, very
smart and can tell you something about that.
Some of the things they have discovered in Big Bend
National Park- one of them you may have heard of. It's in
FORCHHEIMER 2B
F: the Museum of Natural History in New York, but it was
discovered in the Park; pterodactyl. A pterodactyl was an
enormous bird about the size of a dragon and, I forget what
the wingspan was, but they could tell from the pieces they
took up. Dr. Juan, I think it was, named ? was on the dig
with a group of University o f Texas people when they
discovered this thing. And it was just so - there again in
the field of archeology - people had no idea - they knew
there was such a thing as a pterodactyl, but nothing had
ever been discovred to indicate that they roamed in this
part of the country. So these are the things that were
unearthed.
PG: Where was the rubbing area that •• ?
F: The rubbing was on the Rio Grande River upstream
several miles from the present dam site, probably between
Dryden and Del Rio. And these are the things that make you
realize that in these rugged mountains there is an awful lot
of history that is still being be •.•
PG: Can be searched.
F: Can be searched and whatnot. And I read in the El Paso
paper not too long ago they are considereing the much
discussed atomic waste site - nuclear waste site on the
Sierra Blanca. So a party went out there to test the ground
in order to see if the earth wsa permeative , to be safe to
dispose of nuclear waste without contaminating the water,
and whatnot.
And there again they came along caves that they never
FORCHHEIMER
F: knew existed. And they have a very, very rich
archeological find there.
PG: Oh, how wonderful.
29
F: Dr. Charles Kelly is one of the, probably foremost,
Indian history man. He lives in Fort Davis, used to teach
at Sul Ross. So there 1 s an awful lot of that that goes on.
There are a lot of firsts, at least to us, I guess to
the whole scientific world, because having given, you might
say a cursory examination of the area, people say, "Well,
there isn 1 t anything else." And of course there is. And
people still are unearthing things . The - south of Marathon
on the way to the Park on Highway 285, I don 1 t know if
you 1 ve been that route or not, after you leave Marathon
about 5 miles, you see series of ridges where it looks like
a huge glacier - you can just see what happened.
BG : Like a ? it is?
F: Yeah. Smoothed right down there and you can - it 1 s
right out in the open. It 1 s that obvious. For that reason,
every summer for years and years, and still continues,
graduate students from the leading geology departments in
the big universities have a camp. A lot of them come to the
University here and operate out of here .
And you drive down there. And once you get an inkling
of what they 1 re looking at, this area is fantastic. They
study and study and when they get here, it 1 s virtually an
open book. You can see exactly the faults unfold, you know,
you can trace all the way back. And this is the type of
FORCHHEIMER 30
F: thing that the region is unique and it's been the bane
of oil geologists because nothing is - it's all convoluted.
And the Permian appears three or four sections higher than
you find it anywhere else. So it is an intensely interesting
area geologically speaking.
The volcanoes we had, tore the land up - the earth up,
so much that it's an interesting parallel between the old
cones and the volcanic sediment on one hand and then the
limestone formation meant it was at the bottom of the sea on
another.
So the area has an awful lot going for it. And much of
the land around Alpine and Fort Davis and Marfa for that
matter, is extremely rich. They call it "red rock" country.
And in the red rock country you find the most desireable
ranches. Red rock, of course, is from the lava and, which
is -over the centuries decomposed and it's very, very rich
in minerals. And therefore the grass that comes from that
country is strong.
BG: All you need is some water.
F: All you need is some water, that's right. So .••
PG: Well, with the water - the lack of water is the one
that preserves what was in the caves.
F: Precisely.
PG: It didn't get too much moisture.
F: Yeah. And they discovered working on a dig, oh, maybe
15 miles north of here, between here and Fort Davis off the
road maybe 10 miles, and it seems to have been - the people
FORCHHEIMER 31
F: who do Indian work have been amazed. This part of the
country, they always assumed that you found an Indian
campsite and you could tell it from the metates, you know
where they ground their corn?
PG: Yes. corn.
F: And they discovered an area out here, off on a ranch
that they found literally hundreds and hundreds of them,
plus scorched earth over a big area, maybe acres which
indicates that contrary to what people one time thought of
the Indians of this area, they weren't necessarily small
groups. This indicates there might have been five or six
thousand at one. Which has always been associated with
Arizona and New Mexico. Nobody ever found anything like
that in this area.
So lots of people, of course here, like many places,
their hobby is arrowhead hunting, you know, and things like
that. But so far as an area that has a lot of appeal for
anybody who's interested in almost anything and of course, I
think the prime achievement of this area is the McDonald
Observatory and of course, that's wonderful for the local
people and its a thrill to go up to the place where they
first used the laser and when they sighted on Mars and could
calculate on the - and the laser, actually, as we know it
today, was developed up at Fort Davis.
So this area, when you scratch a little, you find some
very, very interesting things. And it's, you can do that­it's
one of the great things about Texas, no matter where
FORCHHEIMER
F: you go, you discover things that you had no inkling
were there.
PG: And they're interesting.
F: Invariably.
32
BG: We went to Fredericksburg. We discovered the Mormons
were there one year after the Germans got in.
F: I never heard that before.
BG: And the Germans benefitted the Mormons because they
set up the sawmill.
PG: And the grist mill. Until 2 floods wiped them out.
But they were enough to help the settlers coming up. They
built the log cabins.
F: I don't know if you've had the opportunity to read
"Texas" and if you haven't read, it's not too late, read it.
Some of it's pretty hard going but there are some things in
there. I thought I knew a little about Texas history but I
didn't realize the enormity of the contribution that the
Catholic Church made. You know, in setting up the missions
and wherever they went they built a c hurch and then
colonized it and ••.
PG: Willing or unwillingly. ( laughter)
F : That was true . The whole area is rife with - and of
course that's another advantage of having Sul Ross here is
we - because there's a constant stream of studies when we're
in ••· We are i n the middle of what we call the Chihuahuan
Desert and the CDR! which is affiliated with the University
in that. The Chihuahuan Desert Research Institute.
FORCHHEIMER 33
F: Yes. they have a building up on the campus and then
near Fort Davis they have an arboretum.
PG: Well, we saw one of Ernie's ex-students. She showed us
her research area. And talked to us about plans they have
to go ahead now, grape growing. And she's got her vines set
up there and to step by step to move them to bigger places.
F: Well, they're doing a fabulous job finding out what
they can do with the desert area , plants that will grow and
things like that. A lot of people at one time considered it
a wasteland, you might say, it's actually very rich and many
minerals and . . .
PG: Well, they're saving a lot of things that are - I'm a
member of the board of the San Antonio Botantical Gardens
F: Well, you're famil iar with it.
PG: Saying they are working with rescuing some of the
plants and they've done a nice job of saving and propagating
so it's been fun to be a guide there, too.
F: You bet . Well, you're familiar with probably the work
that Dr. Barton Warnock is doing.
PG: Yes. In fact, I've got his book from our library to
help me with some of the plants that ..•
F: In fact, he is the distingued in many respects - o ne of
the few that has a plant that he discovered , named after
himself.
PG: Well, we were hoping to go up there, too. I ' m afraid -
do you have any idea what time they close?
FORCHHEIMER
F: I have no idea. Probably before five.
BG: It's too late to go up there today then.
PG: How far is it?
F: It's about 20 miles. Something like that.
VOICE: How much longer are you going to be in the area?
34
BG: We leave tomorrow so it was a very short visit for us.
But we were just hoping - I wanted to ask - Esther wanted me
to check on the lechuguilla and the sotol and find out
something about the Chihuahuan Desert.
F: Well, you know we had a pioneer industrialist here by
the name of Jim Kasner and he was convinced - he is the man
incidentally who developed the native industry here which
was enormous at one time and it's still big. He developed
the candelilla wax thing. He had it sent over , he bought
the wax from Mexico, had it refined here in Alpine and it
was a very, very high quality. Most of it went to 2 places,
S.E. Johnson, the wax people, bought it and Wrigley used it.
It's a component of chewing gum.
And Mr. Kasner was a great - a great scientific man and
he discovered early on that lechuguilla, when it was
decorticated, which is a very tough plant and you have to
skin it to get at the core, was very, very rich in
ingredients in cortisone. The - all of it at that time came
from Mexico and now our mountains here are just literally
covered with lechuguilla.
The only disadvantage, labor is high here and in Mexico
it's cheap . So he worked for years developing machines that
FORCHHEIMER 35
F: would shred the lechuguilla but he never found - never
could develop a machine that could compete with the natural
fiber and toughness in lechuguilla.
The real reason why lechuguilla is so extremely
valuable in fine furniture and in some automobiles.
Lechuguilla is used in bed springs for natural fluffiness.
Lechuguilla, so far as I know, is the only fiber - natural
fiber - that invariably springs back. In other words, you
make a cushion out of the hemp from lechuguilla and no
matter how many times you sit on it, it always comes back.
And unfortunately he died before he could completely
research it. But he discovered, before his time, he
discovered that you could take sage and extract oil from it
- mineral oil. And it was an excellent , excellent cure for
arthritis.
PG: Well, I've heard that they made a tea with it and used
it as medicinal helper.
F: So when they say it's a desert it's - people envision
sand dunes. It's actually rich in ~any , many respects. And
they are developing. We have now a herd of 350 elk that do
very, very well here. And they have moved in big horn sheep
to see how they do. So far they're doing very, very well.
PG: Are these on ranches? Or part of the University?
F: Well, state game preserves have some of them. And they
are constantly finding that things can adapt to this part of
the country.
PG: But they haven't brought the camels back . (laughter)
FORCHHEIMER 36
F: That was a noble experiment.
PG: I was going to say that it seems it should have fit in
and where did they go finally?
BG: I never heard. Why did it fold?
F: The ground - camels are made for sand and the ground
here, of course, is primarily rock and it cut the pad of the
camels to pieces. They went so far as to try to make shoes
for them. But that didn't work either.
PG: They probably weren't surefooted enough with the shoes
on.
F: Probably not . You know the camel is a big, ungainly
animal, if there ever was one.
PG: Yes. I have been unfortunately close enough to them.
We saw them at Kew Gardens at the zoo and the children got
up on one of them. And wobbled around that hump.
BG: Spit in your eye at the drop of a hat.
F: As you say, they're pretty ornery, too.
Of course, the donkey has reigned supreme around here
for years. Its native habitat and for that reasoni lots of
mules. And there was an interesting article that caught
everybody's attention out here. Afghan rebels successfully
fought against the Russians with the aid of Missouri mules.
Missouri mules, not their own. A very superior breed. Was
bred for that, you know.
PG: Do you have any appointments this afternoon?
F: No, no.
PG: We don't want to take up time if you have.
FORCHHEIMER 37
F:
ES:
That's the fun part when things just keep corning up.
That's fine with us.
PG: What other plants - the creosote bush, are they doing
... ?
F: Creosote bush, oh, man are they? A rancher who got his
master's at Sul Ross in botany discoverd a way to- I don't
know the real process, but it can be done under fairly
primitive conditions, and leeched out the harshness and what
was left was good cattle feed. He would take the residue,
the stalk you might say, and mix it with molasses and that
way it became palatable and gave bulk to a feeding program.
His name is David Adams and he still lives in Marathon.
PG: How old is he?
F: He must be 55.
ES: Did he attempt to try to make any use of the creosote
part - the oil part, or just throw that away?
F: I don't know, to tell you the truth.
ES: I understood there were efforts, war efforts, trying to
get oil, creosote, from it, but there just wasn't enough of
it to make it profitable. And in World War I, they had a
big plant for guajillo, making synthetic rubber, not
synthetic rubber - actually rubber from the rubber plant.
So these things all run their course until •••
The southern part of the country is extemely rich in
florspar and it was a big industry, employed a lot of
people, a lot of trucks, and was sold to Dow Chemical
Company; Dow and Dupont. And all of a sudden Red China
FORCHHEIMER 38
F: can ship it to a steel mill , let's say at, say ,
Sparrows Point, Maryland, from China , cheaper than they can
mine it and put it on railroad cars from here .
ES: A couple of years ago florists in Israel could raise
flowers, roses, and ship them to florists in the States
cheaper than the florists here could grow them.
F: Exactly.
Several years ago I was in Frankfurt and it was on a
Sunday morning and we were there with an Austrian airlines
group taking us to Austria; group of travel agents. So on
Sunday morning he took us to a downtown open market and it
was absolutely amazing. There were oranges from Israel,
fresh fruit and fresh flowers from every p lace you've ever
heard of - Sicily, Italy, Australia , Morrocco and we
expressed wonderment why all these things were here. Well ,
he pointed out, he says, "This is the era of air
transportation." And in the western world, in Europe ,
Frankfurt is the main terminus for the airlines so you load
it in the bel l y of the 747 one night and it's in Frankfurt
the next morning. And there's no ••• I'm trying to give you
the exact, you're probably familiar with it. No place in
the United States is more than 12 hours from any place in
the world and that .•• For example , we were in Hong Kong
once , when I was still in the retail business, and I saw a
store in Hong Kong with an awful lot of Levis at the same
price that we were selling them for in Alpine , Texas.
And at that time it was very difficult - you couldn't
FORCHHEIMER 39
F: get enough. Ours were made in San Francisco and
shipped to a shipping dock in Amarillo and then we got them.
This was normally about a 6 to 8 day tri p by truck. So I
saw this merchant in Hong Kong. I says, "Where do your
Levis come from?" He says, "San Francisco." I said, "How
long does it take to get here?" He says, "We get them within
24 hours from when we order them." I says, "How's that
possible?" They load his order on a pallet and strap
plastic around it and then strap it with steel, I guess.
And put it in the belly of the 747 and he has it next day.
So this is an indication of Well, you know last year
Cadillac starting making an automobile - the bodies are made
in Italy. Their new - whatever their new luxury sportcar
is. And they're made in Italy and put in the belly of the
747 and shipped over here. And so the 747 is really part of
the production line of the Cadillac.
And the incredible things that transportation has made
possible is just
PG:
can
F:
You talking about Levis, (Bill, stop the recording so I
ask) What happened to .•. ?
gold rush and somebody asked him [ Levi ?] to make
them a pair of pants that would stand up, so he got a piece
of canvas and fashioned the first pair of Levis. Everybody
liked them so much that there was a demand. And he never
stopped.
PG: Did he market his own
F: Yes. Levi Straus, put the leather •••
FORCHHEIMER 40
PG: Oh, the pocket
F: And, of course, they were and still are the 501 which
is the original. It's probably the least destructible
garment in the world.
PG: And, boy, for ranching and working in tough cactus
stuff there's just not better protection on your legs. And
riding a horse, too. I'v tried to ride the horse with
shorts and that
F: Yes, that's damn foolery.
PG: Yes. Your're right. I found out very quickly.
Well, we will thank you for being as conversna t as you
are, and knowledgeable , too. This has been interesting.
F: It's been a lot of fun.
BG: What did we forget to ask him that you need to ask him
now?
PG: Sales and merchandising, and •••
ES: I think they've covered the waterfront.
F: Levi Straus and
PG: And things here in thi s area. He was telling us about
the pictographs and the art teacher who went down to get
rubbings.
F: You remember before they got a ll these rubbings -
before the lake would cover them up and they discovered some
BG: Well , the Italians were really roamings, we found that
out. (romans? pun?)
END OF TAPE I, SIDE 2, ABOUT 25 MINUTES .