THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
INTERVIEW WITH: Irene Batts Campbell
DATE: October 20, l993
PLACE: Marshall, Texas
INTERVIEWERS: Cheri Wolfe
W: It's October 20, l993 and I'm talking with Mrs. Irene Batts Campbell, at her home on Port Caddo Road in Marshall, Texas. And we're going to be talking about her memories of life along Caddo Lake, and about growing up here in Marshall. Where were you born, Mrs. Campbell?
C: I was born very near Caddo Lake, about 2 miles from the Lake shore.
W: Huh, like near Uncertain, or...?
C: Would be Uncertain. It was--well it was Leigh, Texas at that time. It's Leigh community. L-E-I-G-H, Leigh, Texas.
W: When was that?
C: I was born in l908.
W: What did your parents do? What did your father do for a living?
C: Farmers. They were farmers.
W: And your mother was a housewife?
C: Housewife and farmer. She plowed and worked in the field like, just like everybody else. And she did her housework, too.
W: That's a lot of work.
C: Yeah. 2
W: Did you come from a big family?
C: No. My mother had a large family, but the children didn't live. They died at birth. But 3 lived. I have a sister, and my brother passed a few years back. The three of us lived and my mother and father.
W: Did you have grandparents there in the area?
C: His mother and step-father lived not far away from our house. Ledbetters.
W: So your mother was a Ledbetter?
C: My mother was a Ruffin. My father's step-father was a Ledbetter.
W: aah. Okay.
C: And his brother, Huddie, was a Ledbetter, see? He came-- he was older than his brother.
W: Did your father fish on the Lake, or ...?
C: Oh, yes. He fished on the Lake. He'd go down - he'd do what he called "gigging". It was a 2-pronged - looked like a rake, long handle with 2 forks on it. But it had a point so it would catch the fish when it hits. And he went "gigging" and he would bring back tubs full.
W: Of what?
C: Of buffalo.
W: During the day, or at night, did he gig?
C: Well, I think he gigged at night, or early part of the night. I think it was night. Because he would go away and 3
come back and we didn't hardly know, you know. When he left or when he came back. I think it was mostly night.
W: Did he go with anybody?
C: Sometimes. Sometimes he'd go alone.
W: Did you ever get to go?
C: No, I never went fishing with the gigging. I never went gigging. Now we went fishing. But I never went gigging.
W: Was that something that girls didn't do, or...?
C: The girls didn't gig, no.
W: How about fishing, then?
C: Oh, yes. We went fishing. We had fish days and we had picnics, where we'd take basket lunches and eat on the Lake shore. And that's when we would go musseling. Sometimes.
W: Did you always go to a certain part of the Lake?
C: Yes. Same part of the Lake. Swanson's Landing was a known--it was a place I can remember now. Swanson's Landing.
W: Tell me about fishing down there. What kind of pole did you have?
C: We had just a cane. Sometimes you'd find swamps, and you have a cane brake. They call it a cane brake because that's where the cane grew. And you'd get this cane. It's hollow in the center. And you make the pole to fish with by--with this long stalk. It was very hard. It would not break, it would bend but it wouldn't break.4
W: So you'd tie the fishing line and the hook. And what would you use for bait?
C: Earthworms. We'd dig in the ground and get an earthworm out. And we'd fish with that.
W: And you mostly caught buffalo?
C: No, we would not. We would fish for buffalo. They had a special kind of bait for buffalo. I think it was a meat, kind of pork, but I'm not sure. It's something they made up that the buffalo liked. And they would fish with it.
W: What would you catch with earthworms? Fishing worms?
C: Brim, and carpie, catfish, what's this other - bass.
W: Did you eat it right there?
C: Sometimes we would cook on the Lake and eat. And most of the time we'd bring it back home and cook it at home.
W: Did you rely on fishing a lot for your food?
C: Oh, that was a delicacy. We didn't - that wasn't for food. That was just for sometime, you know, refreshing. So, you'd like, "Oh, I'd like a mess of fish." We'd call it a mess of fish. And he'd go fishing. And come back with the fish, and we'd clean it and my mother would cook it.
W: Who cleaned it?
C: We did and my mother would cook it.
W: Is that - who cleaned it?
C: We did.
W: The kids?5
C: The kids, oh yeah.
W: Was that a kid's job?
C: We learned how to do it without cutting our hands.
Yeah. That was a kid's job.
W: Did your father fish with nets?
C: Sometimes. He'd set the net. Now, a net is a set hook. He'd put it out there and go away and leave it a day or two. Come back and it would be full. Sometimes it'd be full, sometimes wouldn't.
W: Did he make the nets, or where did he get them?
C: I don't know where he got the nets. Now, way back there they might have made them because they were creative and they knew how to make what they needed. And they probably made some nets.
W: Do you know what kind of net it was?
C: No, just a net. Anything that would catch fish. The holes-porous, it had to be porous material but the holes would have to be small enough so the fish wouldn't get out. Because once he gets in there he's trying to find a way out. W: Did he use the nets very often?
C: Always. Always. Now he would go fishing with the hook but he sometimes needed a net to catch the fish. He'd pull it up so far and then he'd put the net down there and scoop them up. And this net had a handle. But they knew how to make the handle. They knew how to make what they needed. 6
W: Did your father sell fish?
C: I don't know if he did or not. I - he was not a fish - it was not a part of his daily occupation. He didn't sell fish as a - he wasn't known as a fish peddlar, but he might have sold some that he - because he had so much. Way back there, though, they didn't sell much. They'd give it away, you know. If you had more than - if you had more than you need, you'd share it with someone else.
W: Bet you had some good fish frys, didn't you?
C: Oh, yes. we had good fish frys. And my Uncle Huddie would play the music when we had the fish frys.
W: Tell me about going musseling.
C: Oh, musseling was an all-day affair. We'd leave early in the morning and carry our food, and we just got in the water and waded and picked up the mussels.
W: Just reached down or....?
C: Reached down with my hand - put my hand down there and be sure you don't get a mussel with his mouth open, with his --he's in a shell, you know. And they open those shells and eat. But you get your finger in there and you'd get caught.
W: Did that ever happen?
C: Yes, it would happen and it'd hurt. Someone would have to come and get him off.
W: How did you get him off?
C: Well, my father would know how to open his shell and get7
your hand come out.
W: Did you find pearls?
C: I never did find a valuable pearl. We found little pearls but they were not of value. None of us ever found any that was of value. If we did, we didn't send it away and get anything for it. But people did. They'd come down to Caddo Lake pearl hunting, you know. Just hunting pearls. And I guess some of them found some that they made money on, but we didn't.
W: Were you looking--trying to gather the mussels for food then, or were you looking for pearls?
C: Looking for pearls.
W: Did you eat the mussels?
C: No. No, we never ate the mussels. And I didn't know then that people ate them. Just lately that I heard they eat the mussels. I thought they was throw-away. (laughter)
W: You know mussels have that pretty shell, don't they when you open them up?
C: Yes. It looks just like an oyster.
W: Did you make anything out of those?
C: Nothing.
W: You'd throw them away?
C: Threw them away. It would be nice if I had kept a shell, at least. It'd be valuable now. But you know when things are happening you don't realize in years to come it 8
will be so valuable. To hold on to some of it.
W: Where did you go musseling?
C: Well, points on Caddo Lake and I don't know what they are now. Now we have a place called Big Lake--Big Lake Camp, and we have Swanson's Landing. Now you can tell that was a name when the early Americans came down the Lake on boats. And they had a special landing. And that was Swanson's Landing. That was a main picnic place--Swanson's Landing. And Big Lake Camp was another one. And that's named because the Lake gets very large in that area. When this camp was set there, they named it Big Lake Camp. Let me see now--what they have one that's called, something -Elbow. I can't think of it. But they have different points on the Lake with names. And they were named because when the transportation was used--the Caddo Lake was used for transportation. They had those landings. And then that used to be a famous lake for travel and high society. Yeah. We have a house between Marshall and Jefferson. Tall; it stands straight and tall. That was a waystation for travel from--to Jefferson and other points. And it's interesting to see how tall it is, and it hasn't turned or not fallen down, or anything. It's not even deteriorating. It's just in good shape. Someone lives there . I don't know who would live there but I--if there are such things as ghosts, they would be in that house. (Laughter)9
W: Why do you think so?
C: Oh, so many people were killed there, you know.
W: In the house?
C: Yes. It was like a hotel. It was, yeah, like a motel. A motel where people spent the night and lived there and drank and....
W: How did they get killed?
C: Someone shot him. He was fighting and...like they do in places.
W: Do you think there are any gunmen?
C: Ghosts? I think so.
W: Have you heard any stories about it?
C: Well, I heard some, but I don't know how authentic they are. It might have been true, and it might not. I can't think of the lady's name. It's a story about a lady and her boyfriend and his girlfriend. But I can't think of it right now.
In that house.
W: Are there a lot of ghost stories around this area?
C: Well, I think so if you find the people who knew them. I don't remember them, but I've heard a lot of ghost stories.
W: Did you spend a lot of time on the Lake when you were growing up?
C: On the Lake? We lived on the Lake, about 2 miles from 10
the Lake shore and we went down there frequently. But I didn't live--you wouldn't say on the Lake. Any closer than 2 miles away.
W: Was that any problem? Did people, you know, not want you trespassing on their land, or....?
C: No, way back there you didn't bother about trespassing. You just walked where you want to go and do what you want to do, as long as you don't interfer with the person's life, you know, his homelife or whatever. But we weren't too careful about the neighbors - people who come through or pass by. If we could help, we would. You didn't even close your doors then. If we felt like it we'd just lie down on the front porch and go to sleep, spend the night. If we felt like it. We weren't afraid. Nobody would bother you.
W: Did you'all have a boat?
C: Yes, my father had a boat.
W: What kind was it?
C: Well, it was a row boat. You had to have a paddle and you have to row it yourself. It wasn't a motorboat.
W: Was it wooden?
C: It was wooden.
W: Did he make it?
C: No, he didn't make it. He was a carpenter but he didn't make boats.
W: Do you know who did?11
C: Yes, there was a man who's name was -um! I can't think of his name. He died a few months back.
W: Wyatt Moore?
C: Wyatt Moore.
W: Made your father's boat?
C: He made boats. I don't know whether he made my father's boat or not, because he wasn't a very old man then. I didn't even know him when I was a child. But he knew my family, and I met him in later years. He made boats. He made all kinds of boats. Boy, boats were his skill - in making boats.
W: Were there any black men who made boats?
C: I think so. But I don't know them by name.
W: Do you know where any of them lived, or...?
C: Near the Lake down there. Near the Lake, uh-huh.
W: At certain points?
C: I don't know. I don't know if they - they were not known boat makers like Wyatt Moore was. So, I don't know where they lived. They could be anywhere, could be anybody that lived down there decided he'd make a boat, and he did.
W: Did you go out in the Lake a lot...?
C: Oh, yes. I learned to row the boat, and we went out frequently.
W: Fishing?
C: Fishing. Uh-hum.12
W: Tell me about the Probition days on the Lake.
C: Well, I don't know much about the probition days because I don't know much about drinking and that kind of life. My father, as I told you, was a minister. My mother was a Christian and we didn't know very much about alcohol and drinks, and those things. We just - you lived near it and you knew it was going on, but you weren't a part of it. Children weren't.
W: I've heard there were a lot of tragedies, probably, along the ? Weren't there?
C: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. That's when the gun was the law. You - if anybody needed correcting you might shoot them, you know, just get shot. And it wasn't law and order like we have today.
W: Was that in the thirties, or later?
C: I guess in the thirties, or earlier, because I was born in l908. And just think about ten years later, l8 - oh, I don't know. Well, you see I didn't live there to be a teenager. My mother died and we were scattered, three children and we lived here, there and around. Anybody who would take us. We'd live there awhile and then somebody else ? We just kind of drifted. Until we got old enough to become settled. My sister married, I got married, and my brother joined the--I don't know what he did. He was a - armed forces. He wasn't - it was - Fort Quachuca is where 13
he went for - when he joined. Um! I can't say it, what is it? He didn't join the Army, he didn't join the Navy but there's..?
CW: Marines?
IC: He didn't join the Marines.
CW: ?
IC: Air Forces?
CW: He didn't join the Air Force.
CW: Coast Guard?
IC: Didn't join the Coast Guard. (laughter)
CW: I don't know what's left.
IC: Well, it was one branch of the armed forces. The area where they use horses.
CW: Cavalry?
IC: Cavalry. That's what he did. And was stationed at Fort Quachuca. Then he went off from there to other points. CW: When you went musseling, you would reach down and dive into those, and then would you open it, or did someone else open it?
IC: Well, if I could open it, I would. If I couldn't, some were stronger than others. But if I could open it, I'd open it and find a pearly if I could. We were looking for pearls. No pearl, we'd throw him down.
CW: Would you get all of them, or just the big ones?
IC: We got all we could - well, now, there was a certain 14
size you get. You wouldn't get the small ones. I think, because they had to be a certain size to have grown a pearl. CW: Were there certain places on the Lake that were better to hunt than others?
IC: That's right. Uh-hum. We'd get a mussel bed just like fishing. You'd get a mussel bed and that's where you would dig. You'd search. If you didn't find any there, you'd move on and try to find another one.
CW: Did people have their own bed, or could anybody come and look?
IC: Well, now, it's just like fishing. You'd go and find a, what you call a fish...
CW: Fishing hole?
IC: No, in the Lake there you'd have fish in a certain spot. Fish....well, could call it a bed. They just gather there, the fish.....Fish
CW: Net?
IC: No.
CW: School?
IC: School! Uh-huh. You'd find a school of fish and a person would be impolite to come and fish there. But sometimes they would. Uh-huh. They would either scatter the fish, make them run away, or they would monopolize the catch. They'd get in and catch and catch.
CW: And the same thing worked with musseling?15
IC: Same thing worked with musseling.
CW: If you found a...
IC: A bed.
CW: A bed, you wouldn't tell anybody.
IC: Well, you might maybe tell them but he knew better than to break in. He would be quite impolite.
CW: Was there any way to mark it, to say "This is mine". Did you put a sign up?
IC: No. No, you wouldn't put a sign up. 'Cause you'd dig - you'd search there as long as you want to, then you'd move away and anybody - it's free for anyone.
CW: If you're not looking there anymore.
IC: That's right.
CW: Well, you must be telling everybody where you're looking so they'd keep - make sure they know so that...
IC: If I'm sitting there and searching and finding mussels, they would know this is where I am.
CW: Sounds like a good place to have a fight to me.
IC: (Laughter) If someone would come in. You'd find people drinking on the Lake and they may be ornery enough to walk in. Think you're finding something, they'll want to share it.
CW: Did that ever happen?
IC: I don't think so, not with us.
CW: Did you do anything to take care of the bed to make 16
sure that the mussels would stay there and multiply?
IC: No, we just walked away when we finished. And hopefully we'd go back to that point. We knew where it was and we'd go back to that point if we thought we were lucky there.
CW: Wasn't there a Japanese man who found a lot of pearls?
IC: Yes there was. I don't know him specifically but different people found pearls inside ?
CW: Do you remember any other families hunting?
IC: No. No.
CW: Or ?
IC: No, I don't. Well, all the neighbors. We'd have the Cooks, the Davidson's, the Patterson's, Jamison's, and I don't know someone I'm not thinking about, but everyone on the Lake, that lived on the shore, went musseling in time - in season. You'd have seasons for everything - mussel seasons.
CW: Did your father do any hunting on the Lake?
IC: Oh, yes. Yeah, when the .... duck season, he would always get the ducks. And that's all I remember he would get was ducks and squirrels ? dog feed and one of the squirrels - that was a time when there wasn't any squirrel season though. He got squirrels when he got ready. But in later we had to go by sesons.
CW: Did he hunt a lot?17
IC: Uh-huh, a lot. He might get up and say, "I feel like I'd like to have a squirrel", and he'd just out there and get a squirrel.
CW: Did you go with him?
IC: I never went hunting with my father. Unless he needed me to make the squirrel come on this side of the limb. You know, they may like go over here and you can't see them. Sometimes he'd call me to come and stand there, and make the squirrel come on this side.
CW: Just like ?
IC: Yeah, just walk around over there. He'd get out of your way. He'd think you were looking for him, so he would go out on the other side of the limb and then my father could shoot him.
CW: ? was that something that they'd ? go hunting?
IC: No. It wasn't a practice. If he wanted me to help with this squirrel, make him come over, that would be near the house and he would just want me to stand out there.
CW: Did you eat a lot of turtles and frogs?
IC: I never could eat the turtle. We never ate the frogs. But my father would - my mother cooked the turtle, my grandmother cooked - they said they had - the turtle had all of the parts of meat on earth. They had chicken and steak, and you know, the different parts. And they talked about how good it was, but I didn't want the turtle. Just the 18
idea of eating the turtle was more than I could stand.
CW: Did you'all catch turtles and mark on their shell and let them loose again?
IC: No. We never marked on the back. We caught a lot of them.
CW: Did you go out on the Lake just to row around to explore, or...?
IC: Went for fishing only. Now, in later years we went - a group of us would go out rowing and wading and just swimming and just for fun. But that didn't happen often.
CW: Could you swim?
IC: No, I never learned to swim.
CW: Huh! Spent that much time in...
IC: On the Lake and didn't learn to swim. My father, my mother and my grandparents were afraid of the water and wouldn't let you go. So we didn't learn to swim.
CW: Did you hear any ghost stories out on the Lake?
IC: (Laughter) No, I didn't. Well, yes, I did hear some, but I couldn't tell you. I don't remember them, you know.
CW: Must be all kinds of stories about people drowning, or boats sinking, or....
IC: Well, there'd be stories-- they'd be true stories too. Because quite a few of our neighbors drowned in the Lake. They were out there fishing and the storm - a storm will come up when you're on the water, you don't know it's that 19
close. And not only that, but night will creep up on you, on the water. And before you know it, it's.......
END OF TAPE l, Side 2, 45 minutes.
Tape 1, Side 2
W: O.K. You were saying that you and a friend went out on a ...
C: Fishing. And we had the best luck that day! Every time you put your hook in the water a fish would get it. And you'd take him off and bait up and put it back out there and just as fast as you could bait your hook and throw it in the lake, a fish would get it. And it was getting to be night. I said when I catch this one, we've got to go. And we caught that one and by the time we got our things together and got ready to go, you know, it was dark. And the boat had a hole in it--no, it didn't have a hole in it, but there were stumps in the lake. On our way back, we hit that stump and the water was just coming up in the lake like a water hose. Just peerin' in. I put a pillow over the hole; I got out. The Lord will have it so ... we were near, I don't know what it was. It must have been a mountain in the lake. You know, a high hill. I put my foot out and I could touch the land. I got up, I lifted the boat up over the stump that's sticking up in the boat and moved it out, put a pillow on that boat and my friend who was sitting, was 20
fishing with me--just the two of us--two ladies sat on the pillow. (Laughter) We could've hit another stump, but we didn't. The Lord brought us in. Now, you know, that seems like a fairy tale, but that's true. And we came in and the boat master, the man who let us have the boat, was standing out there wondering "Where in the world were you?" "Where were you? Why did you stay so late?" And we told him why we stayed so late. It was dark when we got back. Boy, that was a narrow escape, wasn't it?
W: Mmm hmm, it sure was with you not being able to swim.
C: No, we couldn't swim and I don't think she could swim. And we couldn't wade all the way because there wasn't high places just like that. The Lord just put that hill there for me to stand on and move that boat and lift that up.
W: Did you lose your fish?
C: It frightens me when I think of it. No, we had a fish boat, fish net, we had a fish box. They put the boxes in the boat so when you catch a fish you just drop him in the box and when you finish fishing, you get your little net, hand net, and get them out of there--fish box, and put them in your whatever you're carrying.
W: That didn't scare you?
C: Yeah, it makes me...it gives me chills when I think of it now.
W: But did you go back out on the water again?21
C: Oh, yes, I went back. (Laughter) Yes, I went back.
W: Why do you think your parents and grandparents were afraid of the water?
C: So many people got drowned. Many people, just from regular currents. You just might hear of a drowning most any time. Cause they weren't afraid of the water and they were'nt careless like I was. We went fishing and we fished too late. Well, you see, that was carelessness; stupidity too. (Laughter) We shouldn't have stayed out that late.
W: You didn't take lights out with you, or did people fish at night?
C: Oh, yeah, they have lights for the ones that fish at night. Some people go fishing only at night. They say they have better luck at night.
W: Couldn't see any stumps, though.
C: No, you can't see the stumps and it's dangerous. Sometimes the stumps are low. It takes daylight to know where they are.
W: Did you ever see any alligators out there?
C: No, but they were out there. Yeah, the alligators were out there.
W: Just now you said that when you got back the boat master was wondering where his boat was. What's a boat master?
C: Well, they have the boats there, just like a fish market; it's just like a grocery store. It's a place to get22
your boat if you want to go fishing.
W: To rent it.
C: To rent it, uh huh.
W: When was this, when you almost ...
C: (Laughter) It wasn't too long ago. It was since I'd been grown; since I was married. We went to Marshall, fishing, on Caddo Lake...and almost died on that lake. I can't remember when that was, it must have been about 1980's, sometime in the '80s.
W: Not too long ago...
C: Not too long ago.
W: Did you ever get lost out there?
C: No, but you can get lost. Yeah, you can get turned around. Nothing ever looks the same...
W: So the moon shinning you really weren't associated with.
C: Moon shine, no, no.
W: Did you know anybody who kind of ran a ferry or took people around the lake or guided them?
C: Yeah, this Wyatt Moore was a guide. He spent his whole life as a guide on Caddo Lake.
W: You know, there must have been a lot of black guides, too. I mean, you...
C: Oh, yeah, yes there was a lot of black guides too. I don't remember them. Uh, Sam Thompson was one of the guides just through the years. Another was Cook, Cooks, C-O-O-K-S.23
I don't remember his first name. They are all gone.
W: Did any women work as guides?
C: I don't remember one who worked as guides.
W: When your father went duck hunting did he make decoys?
C: Did he make what? Decoys?
W: Decoys?
C: Yes, he did. He had decoys. He had--yes, he used the decoys to get the ducks.
W: Hmm. How did he make them?
C: Well, he made them out of...I don't know what kind of wood 'cause it had to be light. I can't remember what it was. And then he painted it. It looked just like a duck. I don't know what kind of wood that was but, like I said, it had to be light wood, very light.
W: Poplar? Was that light wood?
C: I guess so.
W: Do you have any of those decoys?
C: No, I don't have one. Don't have a one.
W: How did you feel about having to move away from the lake after your mother died?
C: Well, I never felt a part of the lake--but to move away from home was quite alright because my mother is dead and my father is gone--he's a minister--and he's gone, and we just went with anybody who would take us and we were happy to go. We didn't find any ties to the lake.24
W: Did you get baptized in the lake?
C: No.
W: Did your father ever baptize anybody down there?
C: Not in the lake. He baptized tributaries from the lake 'cause the church wasn't far from the lake and the water ran from these small bodies back into the lake. When the lake was high it'd run out and then it would go on back. But, I don't know what I want say about the... That's the only way we would be baptized on the lake water.
W: Like the backwater.
C: Near the backwater.
W: Did you have like socials and church picnics and stuff down by the water?
C: Yeah. We went to the lake. There was Swanson's Landing and there's Swanson's Landing again. They always use
Swanson's Landing for their church picnics and community picnics on the 19th of June, and whatever we would have a picnic for, we'd go to Caddo Lake for Swanson's Landing.
W: Tell me about the Juneteenth celebration.
C: Oh, boy, that was a great day. Everybody, who was somebody, was there having fun. But we never had a shooting, you know, you don't get shot. You just have fun eating ice cream...make your own...you make everything you need. We didn't buy anything. You make the barbecue, you make the ice cream...well, you had to buy the soda pop and 25
this kind you hit to open it. Yeah.
W: What did you do beside eat? I mean, that's pretty good ...
C: That's true. (Laughter) Well, we played games and we played "Here We Go 'Round the Mulberry Bush". And my uncle Huddie has a lot of the games that we played in a little book. Maybe I should go find it.
W: Oh, I know which one you mean. But you know what I heard from Mrs. Beaurard was that he wrote "Goodnight, Irene" for you.
C: He did, yes. We were living there on Caddo Lake and I was a baby...my mother and them they told me this because I had to be a baby. And he told my mother, big sister - he called her big sister - that's his sister-in-law, "I'm hungry. Fix us something to eat!" He and Stalling Meyers came by. Now, Mr. Meyers told me this, that "I was with him when we went by there and your mother told him if he'd keep the baby she'd make supper, something to eat. So, while we were keeping the baby, he was strumming, strumming, strumming so he strummed up on "Irene," and "Goodnight, Irene." "..........
W: You know, when I heard that, I thought about that verse, you know, "Sometime I get a great notion, I'm gonna jump into the river and drown?"
C: Now, the one thing he...what he did was, he developed 26
the melody, but he made it his song later.
W: Oh, so the chorus, the "Goodnight, Irene" he sang to you and then he added the verses later?
C: Yeah.
W: I see. So, I always wondered if that was about Caddo Lake when he was singing to you and jumped into the river and drowned?
C: Sometime, uh huh, it might have been.
W: Sometimes I get a great notion or get a great notion...
C: ...jump into the river and drown. Now, it might have been Caddo Lake...
W: Or it might not. I guess...
C: Or might not. He just finding a rhyme. What...at his ... that late in his life was an association that helped him find the rhyme he needed at that time.
W: Tell me about "sooky jumps."
C: Well, that's when they go out and have fun, uh, Saturday night...we don't call them "sooky jumps" now, but they did. It's just a dance, a barn dance.
W: Was there a special kind of dance they did?
C: No, I don't think so.
W: Like a cake walk, or...did you grow up dancing?
C: Two step. No, my father was a minister and we didn't dance. But my uncle Huddie did; he did all the dances. And that sooky jump is a name that he gave, that writers gave to27
his activity. Because I didn't know anything about sooky jump until I read it in the book.
W: Do you remember him playing the fiddle?
C: Oh, yes.
W: What kind of stuff did he play?
C: About the same thing that he played on the guitar.
W: Hmm. Can you give me an example?
C: I'm trying to think of what I've heard him play on the fiddle. Something about a man and his dog...what is it? I don't think I can remember. Hmm. It don't come to me.
W: But it was the same kind of music, whether he played it on the fiddle or the guitar?
C: Well, the fiddle was (makes fiddling noise) that kind of music. The guitar is strumming and picking. He picked the guitar more than he strummed. Strum, you just hang your fingers across. But picking, he just picked different strings, like you do the piano, hit a note.
W: Are you a musician?
C: No. No, I just know how people do it, but I can't do it.
W: Have you lived here in Marshall all your life?
C: I lived here all my life, living at home. But I've traveled a little bit. When my husband was in the service I went to New York and we stayed there four years.
W: Were you here during the Civil Rights movement, in the 28
'50s and '60s?
C: Yes, I was.
W: Can you tell me about it?
C: Oh, that was a terrible time. We had...I don't know why I can't think of things now. We had a five and ten cent store downtown...
W: Woolworth's?
C: Woolworth's. And now ... and Negroes would go in Woolworth's to sit down and eat, you know, to be served, and they wouldn't serve you. Then they'd have to sit in. People from Wiley College and people...Bishop was here then ... from the different schools, students would just go and sit in. And just sit there to be served. And the people, the proprietors wouldn't serve them. It was an awful time.
W: Were you involved in any of that?
C: No. No, we went on our way. We didn't take part in it.
W: Did you think they should be doing it?
C: Yes, I, well, yes, I would have gone if I had felt like I should be doing it. I feel that - now, I feel that they should have do it. But to become a part of fighting and contention, I don't like that. To be a part of confusion, fighting, anger. Seems like there should be a better way.
W: Were ministers involved...?
C: Oh, ministers were involved, yeah.
W: What did they do?29
C: They would advise, that's about the main thing that they did, was to advise. Our pastor didn't become personally involved, but he gave advice and they would have meetings and make decisions on questions.
W: Did he preach about it in church?
C: They would make references. They didn't preach about it in church, but he would make references to the situation.
W: So everybody knew what he was talking about.
C: Oh, yeah. He did it in such a way that it was understood. 'Cause we all knew the conditions of what's going on.
W: What was your minister's name?
C: Reverend Ames Ozzie Penn was our minister part of the time, and Reverend C.S. Booker was a minister. And another in Houston, he's in Houston now, he still lives in Houston, and I think he's the only minister that's still living. Reverend, uh, and I'm not gonna think of his name.
W: When you said they advised, what did you mean?
C: Well, you have to make decisions about doing whatever is wise to do. Just like going down to Woolworth's for a meal. And they would advise them to just don't go because you get in trouble and the best way to not be burned is just stay away from fire. There's fire out there. That kind of advice.
W: Did they advise that like during the sermon or did you 30
go and talk to...
C: During the sermon, so that everyone who's interested could get it. And there were conferences and meetings whenever necessary.
W: You mean to decide what to do about what was...
C: Yes, uh huh.
W: Do you remember anything that your congregation decided that they needed to do, as a group?
C: No. My congregation didn't go as a group to any meeting in segregatio - in this effort.
W: So, I think I understand what you're saying. Like it's stuff that's happening downtown and these questions were coming up and maybe during the Sunday service your minister would talk about fire and getting burned, and so that was his advice to the congregation, and they could do what they wanted to do.
C: Yeah, that's right. Make up your own mind as to whether you want to participate, or go actively as an activist.
W: So there wasn't a sense of God being on your side because it was right? That you should be able to eat at Woolworth's, or you know, that Blacks should be able to?
C: Well, that was the general consensus. We knew that was right, but we can't always have our rights. We don't have, we still don't.
W: Were you afraid of what would happen if you did?31
C: I don't think anybody was afraid. I don't think they were afraid, but they wanted to keep down as much of the confusion as possible and not let it get out of hand. I guess that was the way it was--they kept it from getting out of hand in Marshall. I don't know, something did it, and someone had to be thoughtful enough to keep it down, as much as it was kept down, because it could have been just an open riot. And then many people would have gotten killed.
W: So you think there are people in both black and white communities working to keep it down?
C: That's right, I think it was.
W: You know, that's always interested me because you read about stuff that was going on in Alabama and Mississippi, and killings, and I wondered...I mean, there's a big black population here. I wondered why the same thing didn't happen here.
C: Well, there was a reason--they could work together a little better here than there and the Negro was even more submissive, I think, to let the white man have his way.
W: Was that good or bad, or...
C: I don't know, I don't know; I just don't know, because it seems that in those areas where the Negro stepped forward and fought and demanded more, were getting more. We're just drifing along with the tides; we're having confusion, but we have little of anything else. We don't have much of 32
nothing.
W: Then, or now?
C: Now. We...I don't know what I was gonna say.
W: Do you think it's time to take action again? Do you think that will happen?
C: I don't know; I don't think so. I don't think--I don't know. It doesn't seem like it's imminent; we seem to be quiet and satisfied with our status.
W: What did you think about that big demonstration when they got the fire hoses out?
C: Oh, well, that was terrible; that was terrible. I don't think they had to do it like that. We can take fire hoses to squell a ... Well, that wouldn't have happened here, I don't think. I don't think that would have happened here.
W: What?
C: The people spraying you with fire hoses.
W: It did happen here.
C: It did? How?
W: Once, downtown.
C: Hmm. And I was here, too, I guess. Well, I don't know.
W: Do you think very much has changed since those days? I mean, in terms of, you know, the way blacks and whites live here in Marshall?
C: Yes and no. It has changed somewhat, but not enough, I don't think. But it's changed to the point that we have a 33
mayor, a black mayor, and he's saying what he wants to say. I don't know whether he's doing what he wants to do or not, but he's doing a good job. And we're making progress, but it's mighty slow. Where we are not making progress is financial status. That's locked up and it will not be unlocked, it seems; it's just that we don't move very fast there. We have some teachers, a few teachers who are making good salaries, I think. I don't know it, how much, but they seem to be... We, we still--the black man is still on the bottom of the financial level. We haven't moved from there. I'm doing this for...you asked me do you think we have improved. I don't think there's much improvement here.
W: What do you think we can do?
C: I don't know. I don't know because the change has to come all the way from the government, from the setup of affairs. And I don't know how it could be done because we don't have a part there. We have to take what's handed down to us.
W: What about the NAACP? Do you know all the stuff they were trying to do, or were you involved in any of it?
C: I'm not involved in any of it; I belonged to the NAACP, but like I said--I don't know if I said it, but where there's confusion, I don't like to be involved in confusion where we have to fight for...well, you need to fight for what you know you deserve, but I don't feel like fighting. 34
You know, it's just a bad feeling, an ugly feeling and you don't feel like--you don't want to go around feeling like that. I guess I'm not progressing and will not be a person who will make progress, but I don't feel like a fighter.
TAPE 2, Side 1
W: So, you think it's you personally, though, that isn't a fighter. You don't think...
C: Oh, I think I would like--Charles (Charlotte?) Amley is a fighter. She know what to say and how to say it. And what to do and how to do it. But I'm just not - we're different people altogether.
W: Sounds like you admire her a little bit.
C: Oh, yes I do. Yes, I do. She and her other people, with her personality and way of doing things, are the ones who can get credit for any progress the Negro will make.
W: Do you think her being a woman has anything to do with it? The reason that she's successful? Would that help her or hurt her? Does it matter?
C: I don't think it matters. I think - I don't know, I don't know whether a woman or man could say and get by with what they're saying as well as she does, or not. I don't know.
W: Do you think most people in Marshall--well, in the civil rights days, did people sort of keep living together, like35
the blacks live in this neighborhood, the whites live in that neighborhood, or did they start, you know, mixing up...?
C: Integrating. They just started integrating lately. We haven't lived in white neighborhoods like we are now. When you drive through, you don't know whether this is a white community or black. But there was a time when it was definitely all white or all black. But now it isn't.
W: How could you tell when you were driving through whether ...
C: Well, you see a man, a black man come out of the house and go sit on the porch like he's at home, you know he's at home. Right now that's the way you do it. That's the only way you know. 'Cause it's in a white community, a white settlement.
W: But that's the reason, like in the late '80s or--when did that start happening?
C: Well, I'll tell you what. I didn't realize it was happening as much as it is until maybe a week or two ago. It's getting more and more like that.
W: What happened a week or two ago?
C: I was driving--the kid next door asked me to bring her home, or come and get her, and I decided I'd come back home another way, another street, and I found so many blacks living in white communities. Yeah. And the white people 36
have moved. I don't know where they went, but they're not there. Blacks living in the house where ...
W: Do you think it's an all-black community now, or is it mixed.
C: It's mixed.
W: Why do you think it took so long for that to happen?
C: I don't know. It might be--I don't know, I really don't. But it has happened. We have very few all-white communities.
W: What about in church. Do you, do blacks and whites worship together?
C: No. We might have one or two blacks in a white church, but not more than one or two. And I don't know which one that is. Most of them are all black or all white.
W: Why do you think that is?
C: Custom. I think it's custom. You feel like you want to worship God, you want to be free to worship God, and you don't want to be cramped. Well with my people, I can just worship. If I go to First Baptist - we worship there sometimes - I'm all--well, I'm not afraid, I don't feel inferior or anything, but I don't feel the same as I feel at Bethesda, my church. I felt like I'm a visitor.
W: It's the same God, though.
C: It's the same God, it is. And that's what makes it endurable. Because you're meeting God there, and we're 37
worshipping Him. But I'd rather do it at my church.
W: When have you gone to the First Baptist; on special days?
C: Yeah, special days. About a year ago. Well, it got to the point where we worship together twice each year: once at First Baptist and once at Bethesda. They would come over to Bethesda and we would worship and then we'd eat, we'd have food. And we would socialize. It was nice. Now the reason we did this is because Bethesda grew out of First Baptist Church when we were slaves.
W: Really?
C: Yeah. We went to First Baptist Church; they would let us come in and listen to their service and I heard two or three ways that they would let us have service after their service had closed, we could have service. And someone said that we would--they gave us a section of the church where we could just listen to the service. And then someone else said that after they dismissed, we would have our church in First Baptist. But all in all, they held us by the hand until we could stand on our feet.
W: Did they help you get the Bethesda?
C: Yes, uh huh, yes, they did. Uh, I'm trying to think of his name...I wasn't this bad 'til my husband passed--I was bad enough. I can't think of anything. One special man--Reverend, hmm, Massey, William Massey was a minister and he 38
helped him establish a church for blacks. And, hmm, I can't say his name now.
W: This was after the Civil War?
C: It was after the Civil War.
W: And you still feel a tie to that church, to the First Baptist or to those white people?
C: We feel friendly toward them as Christian brothers and sisters.
W: But special things since they are--that church helped yours established once?
C: Yeah, we feel--what you mean "special?"
W: Well, you're not going to another white church and worshipping with them...
C: No, no, no, no. Them only, uh hmm. Because they helped us get started and we feel that we owe them--we want to worship with them sometimes. And it was decided that--what's his name? Pastor of First Baptist? Hmm, I can't even think of his name. But anyhow, he's very friendly. This is my bad day...
W: Oh, I think you're doing fine.
C: (Laughing) Can't think of it.
W: Tell me about the different social clubs you're in here in town.
C: Social clubs I'm in? I'm not in any social clubs. I belonged to retired teachers--what time is it? I've got to 39
be back at 1:00.
W: Twelve.
C: Uh, Texas Retired Teacher's Association and then I did belong to a Twentieth Century Art Club. We made art pieces. That tall thing up there, that vase, I made that. That's a piece of ceramics I made, and I painted a set of dishes, handpainted, and painted different things like that.
W: Do blacks and whites ever get together in the same clubs, or do they socialize very much?
C: Unless it's a federal, unless it's dealing with the government or city management, you know, a committee like that. Now, Ms. Brourard is connected with those organizations. Legal--League of Women Voters, and she's connected with the library. She has Outreach for different sections of the city. But I don't. I never did. When I got through teaching, I just went home and that's as much as I did.
W: It seems like not much has changed. When people socialize they usually socialize with people of their own color; when they go to church, they go to church with people of their color.
C: That's right, that's right.
W: Do you think that's good?
C: Well, it's good if you--I think it's good to socialize with different groups. I think we should. My husband 40
retired from a telephone company and he was a--and I'm not going to be able to say it--he has a--hmm, but anyhow, when he was with the telephone company--Pioneers--Pioneers of America. And I met with those ladies and they were very nice and I enjoyed it, but it's not the same as you're own group. They were very nice to me, but you feel like they're trying to do that just for me, and you don't want to be special, you know. You want to be--I have another feeling...
W: So you think they're treating you a certain way because you're black and you think they're being nice to you.
C: Yeah, because I'm black and because I'm Irene; I'm Doc's wife and they just want to be specially nice.
W: Has Juneteenth changed very much in your lifetime?
C: Oh, yes. It's almost gone.
W: What happened?
C: We lost interest in our day of freedom. We are so free that we can't look back to see slavery. Well, many of the people living who are living today didn't realize what they didn't live through--the slavery days and the years that came after Emancipation. And it's so far a move from their life until it just doesn't exist anymore.
W: Do you think it should?
C: I don't know. I think we should have a feeling of thanksgiving that we are free and that we should do what we 41
can to make the freedom more real.
W: When did it start dying out, do you think? When did people stop celebrating Juneteenth?
C: Well, it moved so little, it's just like time. Because time moves you away from a certain point and we just moved from slavery to slavery days; we just moved out. And with the movement there was lives. People who experienced it, died. And I've never experienced slavery, so I don't know what it's all about. I'm so far removed from it until I'm not even interested in it.
W: Did you ever hear of any KKK activity around here?
C: Yes, it was around here, but I don't know; I wasn't close enough to it to know just exactly what happened. But, my church was involved with something like that. It was before my time, it was when I was quite a child, I think, and I don't remember much about it.
W: So not since you've been an adult, you haven't heard anything.
C: No, no.
W: Do you think in terms of Civil Rights that maybe more happened in the city than happened here?
C: In what city?
W: Oh, Dallas or Houston or...
C: I think so. Yes, more happened in the cities than it did in Marshall.42
W: How come?
C: I don't know. It might be because of the population; it might be the type of people who are in the cities. I don't know, but it sure didn't happen here like it did in the cities.
W: How do you think that people in the cities are different than people here in Marshall or in East Texas?
C: Well, we don't have as many different personalities, I guess I can say personalities. There's just all kinds of people in cities, from all areas of the world for that matter. And you don't know, and that makes a difference.
W: Why do you think it does?
C: Because of the mixture; because different likes and dislikes. Experiences, individual experiences.
W: But does that make them more willing to try new things, or...
C: Yeah, might be. Yes, I think so. He doesn't know anybody here, he will do it and he will get by with it and keep going, you know.
W: Well, that's true. You can't do anything in Marshall without everybody knowing about it.
C: No, if you belong here, we know you. (Laughter)
W: I guess most of the people would be afraid to lose their job or think that they might...
C: Oh, that's one reason.43
W: Do you think that was true in the '60s, '50s?
C: Oh, yes, yes.
W: Did it ever happen?
C: I don't know, I don't know of any that happened. You mean a person will lose his job because of belonging to a certain group of society?
W: Or saying things outloud about the race relations around here or how things should be or?
C: I don't remember, if they did I didn't know it.
W: Were you teaching in the 60's?
C: Yes, I did. I taught from 19--I was teaching in the 60's.
W: So you went through integration?
C: Yeah.
W: Tell me about that.
C: Well, I did, it wasn't all that bad for me because during the integration I was, oh yes, it was bad. I moved from--I was an elementary supervisor, coordinator they called me. And I moved from there to reading specialist.
W: In a white school?
C: An older...
W: In an already integrated school?
C: In an integrated school. And I moved from there to--I've forgotten the name of this program I was connected with, it was teaching slow learners, the teaching--44
W: Remedial?
C: Remedial. They're children who were not learning for special reasons. They were mentally...
W: Like special education.
C: It wasn't special, it was an ... special education. And mine was correct, remedial. And that hasn't been so long ago I don't know why I can't think of it.
W: Why did you say that it was bad, or it was hard on you?
C: Because I was removed from the regular stream of education to remedial, you know, just picking up on those things. And I moved from ... home. I retired, I had 43 years, so I had--earlier years was an enjoyable experience. And I enjoyed all I did, I enjoyed all of my work. The last work was all pleasant.
W: Do you think integration has been a good thing for black kids?
C: No. It hasn't been good for blacks because they don't seem to be succeeding as they did before. I don't know why, but students don't seem to be interested in learning. Oh, I should just say no and let it go like that. (Laughs)
W: Well, I'm interested in why, if that's all students or it's more often the case of blacks, or...
C: I think it's not good for blacks, period. I don't think that educational program is helping the black students as much as it did when the black teacher was his teacher. I 45
just don't.
W: Maybe the way teachers just don't care as much.
C: I don't know; I believe they care; I don't know what it is. Because if they didn't care, they wouldn't keep their job, I guess.
W: Well, they need a paycheck.
C: (Laughs) What I mean is they couldn't stay on the job. I would put it that way, if they didn't care at all. But I don't know; I just don't understand the system anymore. I'd love to talk intelligently about it, but I don't feel that-- Now, these children, because I had two thirteen, one thirteen and one fifteen, I believe in junior high and high school. And I said, "Oh, what happened today at school?" "Nothing." I said, "Nothing at all?" "Uh, nothing happened." Well, I asked a stupid question, I guess I asked what happened at school. (Laughter) Well, something did happen, but they said nothing happened.
W: What about the way the schools were integrated here? It took a long time.
C: Yes, it did. Well, that's the best way, gradually. Because, you know, if I had to take castor oil for medication, (laughs) I can't just dive in and take it, I got to get set. Well, that was a poor example, I think, but...
W: Oh, no.
C: Nobody--I think slowly is the best way.46
W: Do you think the white people wanted it?
C: No. I don't they didn't want it. And we wanted it, but we shouldn't have it. I think the--that's my thinking, I don't know.
W: Well, that's what I'm interested in.
C: It seems like to me, a good teacher, a good black teacher would be better with the black students. They'd be interested. If, now all this is if...
W: What happened to black businesses during the Civil Rights days here in Marshall?
C: They died. We used to have a barber shop and cafes downtown, on Wellington. My father was a barber and he had a barber shop down there. And we had another minister, Reverend Houston, Harrison Houston, had a cafe and barber shop on Wellington. Now, Wellington is--it goes west of Marshall Drive In... Bank One Drive In, and that's right downtown. There's no more business. We have some more business gathered on the outskirts, just all around. But we don't have any downtown.
W: So Wellington used to be kind of the center for black businesses?
C: It sure was.
W: So what happened? How did it die, or why did it die? I think growth, city growth is the main reason that they died. They took those streets out. Now, we have a bus stop, a 47
cab stop on Wellington down the street, right across--where is it? Just before you get to the drive-in, Marshall Drive-In. One block left and across the street, there's one or two doors there for black business, there's cab drivers. That's what's left of black business downtown. Now, Mr.--our mayor, what's his name?
W: I don't know.
C: He died. His wife is still in government. Oh, me. I can't think--Burmingham, Mr. Burmingham's store is in that area where black business used to be and Texas Cab, Texas Station and Burmingham are in the same building, I think. That's the only one downtown.
W: Did segregation or did the Civil Rights days have anything to do with the black businesses drying up?
C: I don't know. I don't know because those businesses just died; they just moved them out. The stores, the place, everything is gone. And either nothing is there, or no building is there, but it's all on Wellington, you know, in that same area.
W: When did they die?
C: It died soon after integration. Just gradually died.
W: Do you think the customers went to white stores? Or do you think lots of other stores opened up, so when you said maybe it was growth that caused it.
C: I don't know what. They just all of a sudden just moved48
out and I don't know why.
W: Hmm. Who would know about that, do you think?
C: I don't know who would know about that. Mrs. Burmingham might know.
W: And what was your father's name?
C: Alonzo Batts. B-A-T-T-S. Batts.
W: And he had the barber shop there?
C: Yes. On Wellington. Harrison Houston had a barber shop on Wellington. Now, he closed his shop because he finished college and they moved when we went to pastor a church somewhere and that's why he moved, of course, because he was a pastor.
W: Do you go back out to Caddo Lake?
C: Do I? Well, I did when my husband lived. We always went back and fished. We go down there sometimes, some retired teachers and I go down there and eat fish, but that's all. We don't go back fishing.
W: Well, I can't think of anything else. You've been fun to talk to. Can you think of anything we should add or that I left out?
C: No, uh uh. I don't think I think I'm the same because I think I have just rambled along through it poorly.
W: Oh, I don't think so at all.
(Mrs. Campbell laughs, interview ends.)