THE I NSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
INTERVIEW WITH: Lila Cockrell
DATE: 15 July 1994
PLACE: Mrs. Cockrell's Office, San Antonio Museum
of Art, 200 W.Jones, San Antonio TX 78215
INTERVIEWER: Sterlin Holmesly
TAPE I
[INFORMATION IN BRACKETS SHOWS EDITS MADE BY MRS. COCKRELL]
H: Interview with Lila Cockrell, former mayor of San
Antonio, in her office at the Museum of Art in San Antonio,
July 15, 1994 . This is Sterlin Holmesly.
If you would go ahead and introduce yourself.
C: My name is Lila Cockrell . I [lived] was in San Antonio
as a very young Child, but, then, when my father [Robert Bruce
Banks] died when I was just one and a half, my mother [Velma
Tompkins Banks] moved away, and I did not return [to this
city) until 1956, when my husband, Sid Cockrell, Jr., accepted
the position of Executive Director of the Bexar County Medical
Society. And we moved with our two young girls [from Dallas]
and established our home in San Antonio.
H: And, as I mentioned to you, the focuses of this are the
changes in San Antonio - economic, political, and social. So,
if you could, compare the San Antonio you came to in 1956 to
San Antonio 1994. And then we'll get into some specifics .. .
C: Right.
H: . .. of your special knowledge.
COCKRELL @
C: Well, in 1956 when my husband and I moved, I was first
aware of [San Antonio as] a very attractive city. I
[especially ) loved the river. The one ... I think one of my
first memories is [was] having a lunch on the river [with my
uncle, C. Stanley Banks) and thinking that this is [a)
beautiful and romantic [city). And then I had [our] two young
daughters, Carol and Cathy, who were in [Woodlawn) Elementary
School, and so I became involved with P.T.A. and activities of
that kind, and church activities [at Grace Presbyterian
Church] . So, my first reactions [impressions] were of a
pleasant city and our neighborhood where we lived - we had
located in the Jefferson neighborhood, and we enjoyed that
neighborhood. And just .. . we were enjoying the city. [Soon]
I became involved with the League of Women Voters, and then,
through the League, learned quite a bit more about the city,
about the structure of government and [also] about the
problems of the city.
H: What was the structure of government in the early '50's -
the city government?
C: well, it had, by then, adopted [The structure was) the
council/manager form of government. It had been adopted in
1951. And in ... at that time, the Good Government League was
getting underway [organized]. I think the Good Government
League came into existence in about 1955 or '56. [GGL's first
slate of City Council candidates was elected in 1955.]
H: It was essentially a reform movement.
C: Yes. The old GGL carne in as a reform movement and ... to
COCKRELL 3
C: try to have a very clean/ honest/ honorable city
government (with] a business-like approach to managing (the]
affairs of the city.
H: And it was under the GGL auspices that you first became
a member of the City Council. Is that correct?
C: Yes. I had served two terms as president of the San
Antonio League of Women Voters. (And I had also served a term
as president of the Horace Mann PTA/ and (had] been generally
active in the community. And in about January or February of
1963/ I had (rece ived] a call/ one day/ from Mayor (Walter W.]
McAllister . And he said that some people would like (made an
appointment for a delegation] to come out and talk to me.
When they (the group] came out/ they arrived in two cars/ and
about (four or] five gentlemen got out of each car and all
headed for my door. And I felt (realized] they must be on a
mission [business] involved with the city government. And/ of
course, [as it turned out] their mission was to ask me to be
the first woman candidate to run on the GGL ticket for City
Council.
H: What sort of questions did they ask you?
C: They really did not ask me many questions. They just
talked about city government and about/ I guess/ why they had
felt that I could make a contribution. I asked them just one
question, and that was, "If I agree to be a candidate/ will
you ever be coming to me at a future time to try and tell me
how I am supposed (expected] to vote/ or is my vote going to
COCKRELL 4
C: be my own?" And they pledged that they would never in
any way try to tell me how I was expected to vote, but [they
said) that the invited candidates [GGL selected candidates)
whom they felt would, in fact, exercise good judgement. Quite
obviously, it would be then, at some point, a prerogative [the
GGL would have the prerogative) not to continue supporting
that [a) candidate indefinitely, but that they ... they [the
delegation] came in the expectation that I would do a good
job, and [once elected) I would be on my own, so far as my
vote.
H: And did they stick with that pledge? Did you ever ..•
C: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I told [advised) them at
that time that I would have to talk it [the offer) over with
my husband and family and would let them know. And after Sid
and I talked it over, why, we decided that [I should) it would
be OK to go ahead, and so I did.
H: So you were elected in ... was it May of '63?
C: It was then [the election was) in April of '63 ...
H: April.
C: ... because the ... the council [City Council) took office
May the first in those particular days [at that time).
H: And how was it, as a member of city Council then? Was it
a full time job? Or did it work the way it was supposed to,
which is the Council is a board of directors and the manager
and staff really ran day to day?
C: Well, the Council really served more as a board of
COCKRELL 5
C: directors in those particular times [that time frame] .
I recall our City Council meetings were, really, not too long,
maybe a couple of hours. And we occasionally had a citizen to
be heard. It was usually, say, from the Chamber of Commerce
[or other civic group] discussing some city issue. There was
not a lot of controversy. We had our [informal "B"] sessions
- they used to call them the 'bat roost sessions' - and I
think we ... we woul d have a bowl of chili in the basement in
the conference room, and talk about what [issues were] was
coming up in the future, and make plans for [decide] when
things [the issues] would be on the formal Council agenda.
And it [the meetings were generally] was not very
controversial.
opinion.
There were [of course] some differences of
H: What were the issues twenty ... or thirty years ago?
C: Well, one of the issues was water. [Laughter]
H: That sounds familiar.
C: Doesn't that sound familiar? Yes, I ... you know, I
believe as long as I've been in San Antonio that water has
been a ... an issue that was on the list of issues that needed
to be resolved. But other than that, when I came on in '63,
the city was just then really gearing up, looking ahead to
HemisFair '68. And it [HemisFair '68] was five years in the
future, but there were a lot of [many] things that the city
government, itself, had to do. We had to try to get a bond
issue passed to build a convention center . And I look
COCKRELL 6
C: back and think of the cost at that time of the San
Antonio Convention Center. We had passed a 30 million dollar
bond issue, and it was just amazing how many things were in
that bond issue [including the Convention Center] and the fact
that the entire [Convention Center] complex [was] could be
built, I think, for about 12 or 13 million dollars at that
time. And ...
H: My gosh, that would be one building now.
C: Yes. That's right. So, it was a very fine project.
There were issues that were looming, however, that were
controversia l. I [remember] knovl there was ... there were
discussions about public housing, for example, [which were]
that was controversial. There were discussions and ... as we
[progressed] went into the mid and later '60s, there were
discussions about whether it would or would not be advisable
for us [San Antonio] to try to be one of the model cities in
[President ] Lyndon Johnson's Model cities Program. I was
pushing very heavily for it [us to submit an application], and
we did get the necessary votes on the Council to [apply] be a
part of that program. I recall Congressman Henry B. Gonzalez
had come down and held a Saturday [morning] meeting in his
office at the Federal Building - the old Post Office Building
- and explained to us [to explain to local officials] that
this was an opportunity that was coming [going to be
"availab le" 1, and I really felt that C: considering all of the
problems , in terms of needs and infrastructure and other
COCKRELL 7
C: problems - particularly on the near west side of the city
- that we ought to take advantage of any program that would
help us in addressing these issues. And so, we did get that
passed [support of a City Council majority), and with
Congressman Gonzalez's help, we were [San Antonio was) one of
the first five cities that was named to be a "Model city" .
H: And did that make any significant changes on the near
west side or on downtown?
C: I think ... 1 think [I believer that ) i t made many changes,
not all of which are visible in terms of bricks and mortar.
I think in terms of projects, some of the most significant
contributions were in the major drainage projects - of [such
as) the Alazan /Apache Creeks that had formerly [frequently)
caused a great deal of [major ) flooding. There were [other)
major flood i mprovement [projects as we ll .) ... improvements
made. There were some school improvements, there were some
areas that got better infrastructure [with improved streets
and sidewalks). But I think probably more significant even
than any of those [physical improvements'was the fact that the
Model cities progr am had a component in i t [which) called [for
the creation of ) the citizens Policy Participation Committee,
where the citizens in these [the Model city) neighborhoods
voted to elect representatives to a policy committee, to
C: have a voi ce in what was taking place in their
neighborhoods, to begin [this began) a process where they [the
citizens) were p art of the planning process, and not just
COCKRELL
C: being "planned for".
8
And I think that this was a
forerunner, really, of the later development of the COPS
organization [which increased local citizen participation).
H: That was from the bottom up, rather than the ...
C: From the bottom up, that's correct. Because, I'm sure,
with all good intentions, there were planners at city Hall
who, you know, would ... would develop all these plans but they
[these plans) might not always have been reflective of what
would really work the best for people in the neighborhoods.
H: How many terms were you a member of City council before
you became mayor?
C: We ll, I was elected first in '63, re-elected in '65, '67,
and '69. And in '69 I was Mayor Pro-tem . I resigned in
about 1970, because I was nearing the end of my term, and at
that point my mother had [invited me) given me an invitation
to make [to accompany her on) a very special trip with her to
go to Europe. And so [As) I knew it was about time for me to
be stepping off anyway, so I went ahead and quit [resigned)
just a little bit early. I then assumed that that was going
to be the end [conclusion) of my political career, and took a
job. I had been so busy on the Council that I didn't want to
just become a housewife again C: [return to being a
housew ife/ civic volunteer) without outside [professional)
responsibilities, so I took a position at the San Antonio
State Chest Hospital, as the Coordinator of Volunteer
Services, and enjoyed it very, very much. Got [I became) well
COCKRELL
C: acquainted with some [many]
south side of the city, and I ...
9
of the civic clubs on the
[It was] my job was to get
donations and various kinds of services for the patients, many
of whom were indigent [economically disadvantaged] - not all,
but many of whom were - who were patients there at the Chest
Hospital. So, that went on [I was active in that position)
for a couple of years, and then I was very surprised to be
approached again in about the fall of '60 ... of '72 [by the GGL
and], when I was asked to consider becoming a candidate,
again, for city Council. And I thought about it and really
had a little bit of [some] mixed feelings as to whether I
should consider [running again] going back, but they kept
saying, "Well," you know, "We feel [However, the GGL
representatives indicated that] people [were saying) that they
would like to have you [me] come back, and you are [and that
I was really] needed", and all those good things . So I said,
"Yes." And I was elected [again] as a councilwoman in '63.
Now, tha t was the beginning, though, of change.
H: Let's see, that was '73?
C: '7 3. Excuse me, '73. That was the [year) time when
Charles Becker was elected mayor.
H: Urn hum.
C: And the Good Government League had come to a point where
the ... the young folks, younger people who had started the GGL
back in the mid-50's and who came in as the reformed movement,
had [grown older and] perhaps [had] become more complacent -
COCKRELL 10
C: I don't know - having been in charge of city Hall [in
power in terms of city council elections] all that time. I
felt, personally, that ... that [some of the GGL leaders] they
were beginning to be out of touch with the fact that so many
sectors of our community, who had previously felt under­represented,
were wanting to have more and more of a voice.
And at any rate, in that particular campaign, five GGL members
were elected and four others were elected, including Charles
Becker. The GGL had put their designated mayoral candidate up
against Charles Becker, and that was a very ugly campaign,
quite frankly.
H: Was that Sam Gatti?
C: No. John Gatti had ...
H: John Gatti, rather.
C: John had been mayor from '71 to '73, but he was, I think,
moving to [taking a position in] Houston.
H: Oh.
C: No. It [the Mayoral Candidate] was Roy Barrera, Sr. And
after that [election] campaign [which], Charles Becker won,
and he won as a Council member, and then there was confusion
because of the GGL candidate for mayor who had C: bee n
defeated. I know that [at the organizational meeting of the
Council ] I nominated Dr. Jose San Martin as a someone who had
run with me [on the GGL ticket] and whom I nominated for
mayor. But Charles Becker was elected by a [5-4] majority.
H: That was . .. .......... of the Council majority.
COCKRELL 11
C: Yes . Now then, that was the last time that the mayor was
elected by the Council, because in the fall of '74, there was
an amendment passed to the City Charter for direct election of
the mayor by the [vot ers] people. And [the amendment provided
that ] the mayor would then run for the last place - Place 9 -
on the ballot and be directly designated as the mayor. And
then the Good Government League, again, was [fading] waning at
that point. There were three camps of members in the Good
Government League , really surrounding the candidacies, or
potential candidacies, of three different persons to be their
[the GGL] candidate for mayor [John steen, Sr., Dr . Jose San
Martin, and me] . And as it turned out, the majority chose to
support me . And so I was designated as the candidate for
mayor on the Good Government League ticket in '75. However,
just three of us from that ticket were elected, because the
Good Government League had begun to slip strongly .. .
H:
C:
Had run .. . pretty well run its course.
... i n its r eally holding the reins. The other two
persons who were e lected were Henry Cisneros and, I believe,
Phil pyndus was the other one.
H: Urn hum.
C: And then there were six members elected of [from] what
was called the "Indepe ndent Team". And I r ecall at that time
there wa s some speculation that I was going to be mayor in
name only, and that the real power would reside in the six.
And ... but 1 ... 1 approached that challenge from the point of
COCKRELL 12
c: view that each of us had been elected by the voters and
that each of us had a responsibility to work together and to
try to do the [our) best for our city. And while the so­called
party lines were manifested right in the beginning,
before very long we were finding that we could work on issues
[regardless of previous) in different alignments ...
H: Urn hum.
C: ... and it wasn't too long before I felt that the group
was working very well together, and the old so-called party
lines were disappearing. And, in fact, the Good Government
League a t that point simply went out of business. And so from
then on, everyone, who ran, ran just as an independent.
H: That was ' 75 ...
C: Yes.
H: ... and single member districts?
C: Then in ... in January of '77, another major change was
approved by voters. That was the move for single member
districts. Actually, that was approved in about January,
because it ... I think there was a special election [was held)
on that charter change. And under the ... it really came about
through a challenge by the Department of Justice. The city of
San Antonio had proceded with a number of annexations, and
these annexations were being challenged by the Department of
Justice under the voters' ...
H: Voters ' ... Voters' Voting Rights.
C: ... Voting Rights Act. Yes. And so at that time, we had
COCKRELL 13
c: to stop and review what the options were. One option was
just to go into an extended, lengthy [legal] battle as some of
the [other ] cities had done. I know the city of Richmond had
an incumbent council that had been in for about, oh, 3 or 4 or
5 years, and [was] just continuing a [protracted] legal battle
with the Department of Justice. I did not feel that was very
product i ve. I felt that we ought to move on, and so the
proposition was placed to the voters of endorsing a single
member district plan. There was discussion of what type of
plan, and it was agreed that we would put a 10-1 plan to the
vote. And it was passed. It passed fairly narrowly, but it
was passed and approved, and we were able to move on with the
[May] e lection and proceed under the new rules.
H: And that has been in effect for 17 years now. How has
single member districts changed city government?
c: Well, it's changed a great deal. I think in many ways,
though, as we have become a larger city, it was something that
was abs olutely needed. And everything that you do has some
good points and, obviously, has some weak points. But I felt
that at the very least it offered a much more direct
opportunity to see that citizens in every part of the city
have a [more direct] voice in city government.
Now, by having the 10 districts out there, the Council
campaigns were confined to just one district. Under the at­large
plan, obviously, a person has to be able to get a
majority vote throughout the whole city ...
COCKRELL 14
H: Um hum.
C: ... and it takes much more organization, it takes more
money, it takes more everything to be able to run that kind of
a campaign, whereas a person running a district campaign has
just one tenth of the job to do. And therefore it
offered ... it opened up opportunity for persons to become
candidates to represent the district without, perhaps, the
total backing of some of the larger groups or power structures
in the city.
H: I recall one of the arguments against single members that
it would ... San Antonio would become a ward heeler, like
Chicago, and Council would lose the ... sight of the over-all
problems of the city, and each member just focus on his
district or her district in getting re-elected.
C: Um hum.
H: Do you think that's happened to any degree?
C: I think we have avoided some of the worst examples of
that. When I became mayor again in '77, I was faced with a
City council that was almost all brand new. We had 7 brand
new members, and only 4 of us were hold-over members. And
with 7 brand new members and considering the fact that,
probably, each had been elected from his or her district with
a mandate of "go down there and bring fresh blood, fresh
ideas, new ideas to City Council, get it all straightened
out", that meant that we had a lot of energy, for one thing,
but a lot of energy challenging anything that might be
COCKRELL 15
C: regarded as the status quo. And so, ideas that had been
previously tried and rejected, had to be tried again.
The ... the advice that was given to us by city staff members,
in many cases, was suspect [regarded with suspicion] by some
of these new members. It was not an easy two years. But I
think during those two years we had a learning experience
going on. The new Council members were learning a lot more
about city government than they were aware of before, but also
those of us who were the returnees, the incumbent members who
came back, were learning more about the point of view and the
concerns of the new persons who were representing these
districts, and I think before the term was over, we were able
to make i t work. We had some ... some trends that appeared to
be developing that I thought were unhealthy, and we were able
to get past those .
H: What trends were those?
C: The trends were the flexing, almost, of muscles around
the thought that now the Council was a Council where the
majority were minority members ...
H: Um hum.
C: ... and wh ere there was what appeared to be some effort to
divide up votes along ethnic lines or geographical lines, and
I felt that we needed to get around that. We needed to be
looking at issues that ... where you could see how each
distr ict 's needs were met but also how we could [needed to]
all work together on the needs of the whole city. And I think
COCKRELL 16
C: by the end of the term we had more or less gotten past
that ... that particular problem.
H: Urn hum. And you served as mayor from ...
C: I served as mayor until 1981.
H: six years then.
C: six years during that time. And I think by the time that
we came to the end of that period, we had seen great growth in
the abi lity of all the Council members now under- standing the
system, [in) being a part of the system, under- standing how
you work with the different neighborhoods, the different
sectors of the city. I thought it was all very healthy. I
know there was some concern in the business community -
particularly in the earlier part of this period - that the
Council was very argumentative, things were being discussed,
the Council meetings were lasting so [too) long, but I felt
that it was a healthy thing to have all of these C: issues
laid on the table and looked at very openly, because in the
past many of them had been problems that were seething just
below the surface, and I felt it was healthier to have the
opportunity to have them [the issues) laid on the table and to
see how far we could get in solving some of the problems.
H: Contrast your, say, your first term on City Council when
you said it was essentially a Board of Directors who took care
of business in, basically, a day or less to 1981 when you left
office . How much time were you devoting to city business?
C: Well, the ... the first thing that I have to [should) say
COCKRELL 17
C: is that, obviously, there is a great deal of difference
between being a Council member and being mayor ...
H: True .
C: .. . and so that was part of it. But I think all the
Council members were working much, much longer hours and
giving a great deal more time. I think this trend, however,
is not peculiar to San Antonio. From what I have seen, since
I participated a great deal in meetings of the National League
of cities or the U. S. Conference of Mayors, Texas Municipal
League ... I think some of the things that happened in San
Antonio also are indicative of things that were happening in
other cities and that, probably, in most cities in the country
now the job of Council member, even under Council-Manager
government, is ... has changed greatly C: from the original
concept of how it was supposed to work in the text book idea
of what Council-Manager government was. But I think people
now ... I think today people are demanding, first of all, more
access to city government, more access to their Council, and,
you know, it just seems that it has evol ved into a situation
where the position, really, is past the point where it's
really a part-time position.
H: And citizens to be heard takes a lot longer than 10
minutes now, or 15 minutes.
C: That's right. That's right. Sometimes we didn't even
have citizens to be heard in the past.
H: All right. Then you left office as mayor in '81 ...
COCKRELL 18
C: In '81.
H: ... and then ...
C: And then Henry Cisneros was mayor for 8 years.
H: And in '89 ...
C: And in '89, he decided not to run for re-election. I, as
a matter of fact, [I] was in his office on a different matter
and when he had sort of leaked the word [announced] to the
media that he was not going to run. And the media, the people
[reporters] were waiting outside his office to ask him [for
further comment . ] a little bit more about it, and so he turned
to me and he said, "Are you going to run, Lila?" And I said,
"Well, a few people have mentioned it to me."
might take ... might take a look at it." C:
And I said, "I
And we went out
and they ... he made his statement and then they asked me, "Are
you going to run?" And I said, "Well, I'm going to take a
look at it ." And ... and from that, I did. And I became ...
[Yes, I chose to run again.]
H: You decided to. And then Henry Cisneros had some second
thoughts. Tell me what happened there. How did you feel when
they ... he wanted to take it all back and run, after all?
C: Well, you know, Henry is a very, very talented public
official and political person. I think he just loves it. And
all through that fall , you know, when I would see him take
particularly active roles, I would think to myself, that
really doesn 't look like someone who is ready to step out, but
maybe he just wants to keep up the momentum to the end of his
COCKRELL 19
C: term. And several times, I sort of repeated the question
to him, before I went too deep into it [invested totally in
the effort to run for mayor). You know, [I asked if he was
still} are you sure this is what [he planned) you want to do?
And I was told very definitely, yes, he had made up his mind
that that was what he was going to do. And then, of course,
in January , there was the Alamodome campaign.
H: Urn hum.
C: And Henry just put himself into that totally. I think in
the beginning, it looked as if it was going to be almost
impossible to pass. And ... but he just went out, he worked
morning, noon and night. It was his crusade to get the
Alamodome passed. And when he got through with it and won, it
was just a great high for him. I can certainly understand
that. 1 could certainly understand that some of his close
friends and associates would say, "Oh, why don I t you go on and
run for mayor?" And 1 could see this little movement
developing, but Henry still had not mentioned it to me. And
by then, 1 had put in many hours of work ...
H: You were an announced candidate and had raised funds?
C: 1 was ... 1 was an announced candidate; 1 had raised funds.
Several other candidates potential candidates had
withdrawn, based on my candidacy ...
H: Urn hum.
C: ... and it was within, you know, a couple of months or so
of when the election would be held. And it was right in
COCKRELL 20
C: January before the filing deadline, and so I was asked by
the media, "Are you going to withdraw if Henry runs ... decides
to run again?" And I said, "No. I will stand my ground,
because I have now, you know - based on his assurance that he
was not going to be a candidate - I have now invested six
months in preparation, people have made [contributions and
given support) to me, and, you know, however it comes out, I'm
going to stay in the race . And then Henry, after thinking it
over, made an announcement that he felt that it was a matter
of honor not to become a candidate.
H: We ll, and also some of your backers who had been his
backers, stayed with you, as I recall. They didn't waver .
C: Um hum. They did. I think it was just matter that
they ... by then they had all asked Henry, you know, if he was
planning to run, and he had told them all what he had told me
- that he was not going to run. And so they had given me
their [support and stood by that support.)
END OF TAPE I - 60 Minutes
TAPE II
H: Second interview with former San Antonio Mayor Lila
Cockrell, J une 22, 1994, in her office at the San Antonio
Museum of Art. This is Sterlin Holmsley.
OK, Ma yor Cockrell, there have been a lot of changes in
San Antonio. One of them is energy. It's not now like it was
in the ' 60s. This is San Antonio energy production.
C: That's right. In fact, one of the most turbulent periods
COCKRELL 21
C: of San Antonio's history occurred during the '70s when we
saw the rapid escalation of utility costs. In 1973, when I
returned to the city Council as a Councilwoman and Charles
Becker was Mayor, we were experiencing rapid rises in the cost
charged to us by our natural gas supplier, which was the
Lovaca Gathering Company under the Coastal States umbrella.
H: And this was in spite of a contract.
C: This was in spite of a contract. And what had happened
was that the gas prices [at the wellhead) just were escalating
everywhere and, apparently, Lovaca was just unable to deliver
under their contract. So, the citizens were very upset,
natural ly . Their utility costs which had always been very
modest, very low, were suddenly sky-rocketing. The City
council was certainly upset, because we were being besieged
with angry citizens. The city Public Service Board was trying
to weigh its alternatives. One of the things that it chose to
do is to diversify from reliance on just natural gas to two
different initiatives - one of which was to participate, along
with Houston, Austin and others, in the projected building of
the South Texas Nuclear Project; another intiative was to
build some coal-fired generating plants. And each of those,
as it turned out eventually had problems in cost escalations
as wel l . To go back to the Coastal States/Lovaca issue,
during that '73 to '75 period, I became increasingly
frustrat ed, because these escalations were continuing, and it
just seemed to me that both the city and C: city Public
COCKRELL 22
C: Service should be more aggressive in filing a law suit,
if necessary , against Lavaca and Coastal States.
H: As I recall, the price of natural gas went from something
like 30 cents per thousand cubic feet to more than $2.00 or ...
c: Originally , it was like 23 cents at the wellhead ...
H: Yeah.
C: .. . and then i t s tarted escalating very rapidly, and at
one point it got as high as about $4.00 .
H: Um hum.
C: Which was a tremendous escalation. But I was very upset
that we were not fil i ng a law suit, and apparently
aggressively seeking some damages or redress of this problem.
Another one of the council members who was also very vocal was
Dr. Jose San Martin, and we were both actively pressing for a
lawsuit to be filed . Mayor Becker appeared not to feel that
that was the best policy. So there was a definite policy
differe nce in that respect. The lawsuit was finally filed.
And then , in 1975, I became Mayor and vowed that we would
continue that lawsuit until s uch time as either it was pursued
at [in] the courts or, in the alter native, if a settlement was
offered where we could get as much through the settlement
process as we could logically [reasonably] expect in the
courts , that I would be wi ll i ng, under those terms, to
recommend a settl ement. There were many passes made at us, I
wou l d say , during that period of proposed ideas or proposed
settlements and . .. a ll of which I felt fell way short of what
COCKRELL 23
C: we should be getting. After a number of those suits were
reviewed ... or rather a number of those settlements had been
reviewed and declined, we finally got to the point where, I
think, the Coastal states/Lovaca people realized that we were
not going to be pacified easily, and came in with an offer
which our attorneys felt, really, would equal anything we
could hope to get in the courts. And at that point, we
decided that rather than continue in very lengthy litigation,
we would go ahead and recommend the acceptance of that
settlement offer. Of course, there were some citizens who
didn't f eel happy about that because they had, you know, ideas
of [simply ) wanting to continue with the lawsuit.
H: Some people wanted to shut down Oscar Wyatt and Coastal
States and take all the assets and everything else .
C: That's right. It became almost a personal vendetta with
some. But I felt we had to keep our heads, and in spite of
the damage that had been inflicted, I thought we had to seek
what was an attainable result and the very best result that we
could achieve. And I felt that we reached that point, and
finally recommended that we settle.
H: And what was in the settlement?
C: We ll, it was a
[including) some cash,
different times [over
very involved settlement, included
it was cash that was paid out at
a period of years). It included
interest certain interest in gas holdings at different
points. It was just a very involved settlement.
COCKRELL 24
H: It resulted in Volero ...
C: Yes.
H: .. . being created within San Antonio.
C: Yes. But, now, one of the points that I had insisted on
- and, as I recall, Tom Berg was then Chairman of the Board of
City Public Service, that he was very interested in, as well -
was that as part of this settlement that we "capture" the new
company, which was the old Loavaca, but [which was) spun off,
and we structured [into) as a new company. And that was
Valero Energy. And, really, that was probably one of the best
things we got out of the settlement in the long term, although
in the beginning we might have thought of it as just kind of
an extra [ in the deal) adjunct. But Volero Energy has been a
very strong civic- [minded corporation) company, and has been
not only a contributor, economically, to the jobs [and
payroll ) that it has had available here [in San Antonio) and
the business it has done, but also being [has been) a major
contributor to cultural and other groups, philanthropic
[organizations) contributions here in the community. At any
rate, [let ' s) we then can take a look at the other issues
invol ved in energy. The alternative sources that we got
involved with were the South Texas Nuclear Project and coal.
Now, I might just start with coal. In terms of coal, there
had been a contract entered into for the coal to be obtained
at the Cordero Mine in Gillette, Wyoming, and the coal was
very
COCKRELL
C: moderately priced and that
25
contract proved very
satisfactory. There was a verbal quote from Burlington
Northern Railroad, as to the price it would charge for hauling
that coal. But by the time that the coal contracts had all
been solidified, Burlington Northern's quote became kind of a
rolling situation, where just every few months or within a
year, certainly, it would be going back to the [BUrlington
Northern would return to] ICC requesting one kind of rate
increase or another. And so from ... from an original quote it
[the price for hauling our coal] escalated rapidly until it
just, really ... we were up there just every other month,
practically, trying to influence the ICC ...
H: And Burlington Northern became the new Oscar Wyatt for
San Antonio.
C: That's absolutely true. And [our team would go to
Washington D.C. to try to stop the increases, and as] we would
leave town, then Burlington Northern and others [railroads]
would send in about 30 railroad lobbyists, and they would
follow around every place we had been to call, and so it was
a continuing fight. Our presence was felt, though, because we
received recognition in some national magazines [Fortune,
etc.] for the fight we were waging. And we worked through
some organi zations such as the National League of cities,
congress of Mayors, and others, addressing the problems of
"captive shippers", just as we were, and asking that solutions
be found to address their needs. We finally entered into a
COCKRELL 26
C: lawsuit with Burlington Northern, and I'm very pleased to
report that as a result of that lawsuit, we ended up with a
$111,000,000 judgement that was paid out over some years, but
that was a rebate to the citizens of San Antonio for alleged
overcharges that ... that had been brought forth in that
litigation.
H: And as I remember, Representative Tom Loeffler got some
legislation through that put an end to that roller coaster.
C: Yes. He was very, very hel pful in ... in helping to get
that situation stabilized. But I think our big fight really
paid off ...
H: Right.
C: .. . because we ... we were able to halt those major
increases . One other thing that has happened since then, that
happened after that, was being able to get permission for
another company - another rail company - to come in with a
spur line that went into Gillette, Wyoming, into the Cordero
Mine, so that there would be an alternative means of shipping
the coa lout. union Pacific now heads the consortium that
brings in our coal under a contract that is much more
favorable to the rate payers in San Antonio than was that
other contract.
Then we come to the South Texas Nuclear Project, which is
a whole additional set of problems and circumstances ...
H: And more than one vi llain.
C: Oh, it's hard to know where the villains are in that one,
COCKRELL 27
C: frankly. The original projection had been something, I
guess, about one billion. It finally became about a five
point five billion dollar project before the construction was
over. I think it was a problem, first of all, because the
[lead) people in the consortium had never built a nuclear
plant before. Brown [& Root) construction, which was hired to
do the constructing part of it, had never built a nuclear
plant before, and the lead firm in the consortium was Houston
Lighting and Power, and obviously they had never been
involved in this type of activity either, so people [the
project was) started, I think, with less than a complete set
of information and facts regarding what was [really) involved
in such a major project.
At any rate, we bought in with a 28 percent share, and in
this particular type of an energy source, the capital cost is
a very large one, but the "carrot" in the process is that the
fuel cost is relatively much lower than any other source of
energy. So you know that you're going to be spending a lot up
front, with the capital costs, and then you hope to make
savings once it is online, with the operational costs. Just
for an example, at that particular time when we were moving
with this project, although people were very upset about the
escalation with the construction cost, which frankly, everyone
was, we were also, though, facing up to the fact that our
natural gas bill was running at the rate of about 250 million
a year. And so, it didn't take too long to see how that could
COCKRELL 28
C: add up, long-term, against the cost of the nuclear
project. At any rate, the project went through many problems.
It was finally completed [and licensed]. Since it has been
completed there have been times when it has operated well and
then there have been times when it has been shut down for what
has seemed like very lengthy periods which were attributed to
lack of proper care and maintenance by the lead operator. And
those issues are still under discussion and litigation and
probably will take quite a while to get settled.
At any rate, those are our major sources of energy -
natural gas, coal and nuclear.
H: Can CPS still burn oil? Can't they switch over?
C: Yes. I think there is a capability for oil. I don't
know that it has been utilized. I have been away from CPS now
since 91. And during this period, I might add, that I served
as an ex-officio member of the CPS Board - during the time I
was Mayor, namely from '75 to '81 and then from '89 to '91.
But also, after I left the Council in '81, I was appointed as
a ... an appointed Trustee to the CPS Board by the city Council,
and then in the middle or the latter part of that period, [I]
became the first woman elected Chairman of that Board. And it
was a very interesting experience. I think we have a very
fine professional staff at City Public Service, and I think
that they're to be commended, because in spite of the problems
we have had, when compared to other utilities, our rates have
been moderate. Things have been professionally managed and,
COCKRELL 29
C: I think , bode well for the future.
H: And at a time like this in the intense July heat of San
Antonio, CPS can del iver the kilowatts to businesses and
homes .. .
C: That's right.
H: ... and even have surplus electricity to lend to Mexico or
other grids f r om time to time.
C: Yes . I think we have only had one brown-out in our
history, which came to a very embarrassing situation for me,
personally , because the brown-out occurred in the period when
I was Mayor - in that earlier period - and it came in the
middle of a Texas Munic ipal League meeting in San Antonio when
we were holding sessions at our Convention Center, and the
lights went out. I think it was in the evening and Rosemary
Clooney was the invited entertainer .. .
H: Yeah. That was a Sunday night.
C: Yes, I bel i eve so. And I r emember, the next day I think
I was presented with a kerosene lantern by my friend [Carole
McClelland], the Mayor of Austin, as a "friendly" neighborhood
job [neighborly gesture]. [Laughte r ]
H: I remember that was a Sunday, because my wife and I got
back to town just in time for the brown-out . ..
C: . . . for t he brown-out, oh ...
H: ... but we'd been out of town and got back Sunday evening.
C: Well , t h at was kind of [the result of] a series of
unforeseen circumstances, but that's the only time, I think,
COCKRELL 30
C: that we have ever had a brown-out.
H: What other aspects of city government would you like to
talk about that we haven't covered?
C: Well, in addition to the electric and gas situation, we
talked briefly about the water situation, but it's, of course,
coming up for another vote. And I obviously can see that it's
highly controversial again. I had hoped that with the re­worked
plan that it might come through with broader support.
And until we get the vote [is] counted, it will be, you know,
up for grabs, [we will just have to wait] to see how that vote
goes.
H: As we discussed last time, the city has missed
opportunities to develop alternate water .. .
C: Right.
H: ... and I think that hurts the city to pull the cord for
the fish and wildlife and endangered species and whatever ...
C: No. Right now I'm just looking at what will happen if
this i s turned down, if ... if the persons who are opposed to it
[the Applewhite Reservoir] are successful in defeating it, I
don't know where ... where we will be, frankly. I think the
federal government is just ready to lay down very stringent
requirements. And, you know, you [the city] can sue or you
can do what ever you want to, but it's still going to be a
very ... very difficult situation that the city will find itself
in. And I just ... I don't understand, myself, how the
opponents, you know, can't understand, can't really face up to
COCKRELL 31
c: that part of the issue.
H: That puzzles me. They seem to want to ignore that and
just focus on the word, "Applewhite" ...
c: Um hum.
H: ... which is, to some people, a bad word, but they don't
realize that we have about 70 federal agencies that could come
down and change or relieve or whatever .. .
C: Um hum, um hum ...
H: ... as a result of the court orders.
c: Um hum. That's right .
H: And it's a ... as the newspaper said editorially, it's a
very serious thing ...
C: Um hum. Yes.
H: And we're just beginning to see what could be done.
But ...
C: Um hum. Well, it was a fairly close vote the last time.
r think that the ... r had thought that probably the fact that
the last Applewhite election was held in the midst of a
mayoral election that was contested, might have [did] put
additional pressure on that issue.
H: Um hum.
C: Because some candidates were running just primarily out
of an anti-Applewhite stance. And r had hoped that perhaps
this time when it was not associated with a City Council
election, that the ability to just judge the issues, very
objectively, might ... might be possible. But there's still a
COCKRELL 32
C: lot of emotion and heat in this campaign.
H: Is ... that [there's another] aspect that you've been
involved in and [where] change [has occurred], and that's the
museums in San Antonio. The witte Museum and the Museum of
Art, I gather, have had an amiable divorce or separation.
C: Urn hum. Yes, I think it is working out well for both
museums .
H: And the witte will be primarily a natural history type?
C: Yes. And Texana and regional history. And we [at this
nuseum] have a very fine program. I think it's a great asset
for the city. And the San Antonio Museum of Art is really the
only comprehensive art museum in South Texas. Now, the McNay,
for example, in our community is a wonderful museum, but it
does not go over the full range of the world's cultures as
this museum tries to do. We have a range from ancient art -
the Roman, Greek, Egyptian, others. We have Asian art, we
have American and European paintings, furniture. We have
sculpture; we have, certainly, a huge collection of Latin
American art and will be soon - hopefully in the next year or
so - be ready to break ground on the Latin American Art
Center. We really have a very fine educational program. So
this is a museum that is trying to bring the best of the
world's cultures to San Antonio and to share with our own
citizens and with the visitors who come to our city.
H: And your role, as I understand it, is development of
H: funding and also marketing.
COCKRELL 33
c: Yes. We combined two departments - the Departments of
Marketing and Public Relations, and the Department of
Development, to make this department. And we feel that our
role is to, first of all, help people understand what the
museum is, what an asset it is to the city, the full range of
its offerings, to invite more people to become members, to
become involved, to have an extension through educational
outreach. And then, through these efforts, also, to attract
funding and ... not only for the on-going general programs - the
general budget - but also for our new Latin American capital
Campaign and development.
R: Well, 1 ... 1 hope that this museum reaches the point of
the public participation and excitement that I've seen in
... Forest Park in st. Louis and at Boston Museum of Arts ..•
c: Yes. Dm hum.
R: ... both of which just swarm with people .. .
c: Yes.
R: ... a ll the t i me.
c: Well, we ... we have had a great influx of visitors for
certain exhibitions ...
R: .,. Dm hum.
c: It's not there all the time ...
R: But you don 't have the steady flow .. .
c: That 's correct . And so, a lot of it is just getting
people to understand what is here, in the first place, and to
c: become a part of it. The museum is rather young as
COCKRELL
c: museums go . It's really just 13 years old.
34
It was
opened in 1981 and, as most of us know, it is located in an
old building that once housed the Lone star Brewery . And so
it represents a very wonderful adaptive re-use of a building
that was both artistically, architecturally and historically
important. And we feel that it really is a good asset for the
city to have this museum.
H: Are you all reaching out to the tourists and ... and
convention visitors?
c: Yes; we are . In fact, this fall we are going to have some
events to which we will invite the people who serve as sort of
the local host industry for inbound conventions .. .
H: Um hum.
c: ... so that we can be added to their lists of ... of events
to which their conventions are booked. That kind of thing.
H: Um hum.
c: And so, I just foresee a wonderful future for the museum.
You know, people overlook the real economic importance to the
city of cultural assets. During the "Splendors" exhibit, for
example, we had just a tremendous influx of visitors.
H: Um hum.
c: It was over 200,000 coming into the museum.
H: That was "Splendors of Mexico"?
c: "Splendors of Mexico", that's correct. And the economic
impact from the spending of all those visitors - it c: was
c: estimated that each one spent an average of over six
COCKRELL 35
C: dollars , and so that was a very large economic impact to
the city ...
H: Um hum.
C: ... of that influx.
H: Each one spent six dollars?
C: Over six dollars ... excuse me.
H: More than that.
C: No. I'm sorry . I've got that information. It must have
been $600.
There were 260,000 v isitors who came for "Splendors of
Mexico", a nd they spent an average of $626 apiece. Those were
the visitors who traveled mor e than 100 miles . And so, it
r ea lly added up t o a ver y whopping amount for the city. The
State of Texas collected $2,399,000 in hotel/motel tax, and
$2,622,000 in sales tax, for a total of $5,210,857, sub­s
tantially more than the total 1991 T.C.A. appropriation for
all arts and cultural organizations in Texas . And then the
city of San Antonio collected $2, 799 ,148 in hotel/motel taxes,
and that was more than the total 1991 allocation to the
Department of Art s and Cultural Affairs. And the city and VIA
also collected $419,613, each, in sales taxes. so, it
suggests ... the preliminary look sugge sts that over one half of
the visitor s came t o San Antonio for the primary purpose of
seeing "Splendors". And we also mentioned that ... in those
figures that I just quoted, there were no C: m u 1 tip 1 i e r
C: factors . Those were actual dollars spent.
COCKRELL 36
H: Um hum.
C: And when we think of tourists dollars, we know that
multiplier factors can be applied as those dollars turn over
in the community .
H: That's not just ... Three t imes, I think .. .
C: Yes, there are various multipliers there.
H: Well, what will happen to the support the city had given
to the former San Antonio Museum Association, which covered
both the witte and the Museum of Art?
C: Yes.
funding
Well, for about the last 3 or 4 years, the level of
has been in the neighborhood of $700,000, split
between the t wo museums. And so, we just assume that each one
has received about $350,000 in support. And it appears that
that might be the direction they're heading again this year.
The Museum of Art, however, did apply for a larger
appropriation this year. We are just not the same museum that
we were, even three years ago, or certainly not five years
ago. The museum has grown substantially in collections, in
separate staff, and we really feel that we need to ask for a
l arger city appropriation. I might point out that I think,
initially, the Museum of Art got about a million dollars.
H: Um hum.
C: Or there was about a million dollars appropriated. So
then that figure ... the Museum Association - that would have
C: been about $500,000, each. And then, when we had that
C: budget crunch, back in the late 80's, when everything was
COCKRELL 37
c: cut in the city budget, it went down to about $600,000.
But then, I think an intermediate step had been around
$800,000. So, it's back up now to close to $700,000 for the
two museums at about $350,000 each. But, obviously, I can't
speak for the Witte, as to their needs, but I would say that
looking ahead for next year's budget, we really need to have
that city funding increased, if at all possible. We'll be
trying for that through the budget process.
H: And the budget process ... isn't it starting a little late
this year?
C: It is. Well, we're ... we're now ... tomorrow they will be
having the arts and cultural affairs meeting on the arts and
education and some other parts of it. And then the major
visual arts and other grants will be heard the following
Saturday.
H: Um. OK.
What else would you like to talk about, as long as we ... ?
C: Oh, I think that covers quite a bit. There are just so
many interesting aspects. I guess one of the things I might
talk about is the fact that, as mayor, I've had some very
interesting opportunities to meet public figures from around
the world. For example, I have met and been hostess to two
presidents of Mex ico. In the earlier period, in '76,
C: President Echeveria came to San Antonio. And then in
1991, President Sal inas came, at our invitation. And then,
C: also, in 1991, we had the Queen of England and her
COCKRELL 38
C: spouse. Earlier we had had Prince Charles. I had
invited the King and Queen of spain, and they were not able to
accept at the time that I had invited them. But then they
were able to accept an invitation [later] from Mayor Cisneros
to come, and I was fortunate to be included in the guest list
at that time and got to meet them. We've had many,
C: visitors at the level of ambassadors. We've
many
had
presidents; we ' ve had many different delegations from other
countries coming through San Antonio. It's been a very
interesting time and experience. I also had the opportunity
to make some travels that were interesting, as a result of
being a representative of the city. The National League of
cities ...
END OF TAPE II - 60 Minutes
[INFORMATION IN BRACKETS INDICATES EDITS MADE BY
MRS. COCKRELL. ]