INTERVIEW WITH: Jonell Daniels
DATE: October 4, 1986
PLACE: An apartment on Essex, #515
INTERVIEWER: Esther MacMillan
M: Jonell Daniels, you have an interesting story to tell that I'm very
anxious to get on tape and I would like to start with you and then move
back into the generations of your family . Where were you born and when?
D: Brackettville, Texas, September 1, 1920.
M: 1920 . You're just a child! (Laughter) Who were your mother and
father?
D: Della Lee. She was a Perryman, Della Perryman .
M: She married • . •
D: She married Henry Lee, George H. Lee . But he was not a Seminole; my
Dad wasn't .
M: What was he? Was he straight bla ck?
D: Yes, he was black • . •
M: But your mother was a Seminol e?
D: Part .
M: Part . Half and half. And they were living in Brackettville?
D: Yes . As I said, the great grandmother was the full-blood and then
they intermarried, the blacks .
M: I see what you mean . Well then, how come . • . have you any idea why
your mother and father were living in Brackettville?
D: They were born and lived there.
M: They were? That was their home place .
D: Uh huh .
M: That 's interesting to me . I have an interview with a woman from
DANIELS
2.
M: Brackettville whose name was Fritter and in here (newspaper clipping)
it tells about your grandfather saving the life of a Fritter. It must be
the same family and they worked on their ranch .
0: Could have been .
M: When you were born, were you born near Fort Clark? On the base or . . . ?
D: No . In the town. Brackettville is here and Fort Clark is up here .
M: And you were born right in the town of Brackettville . And you grew
up in Brackettville?
0: Yes.
M: Stayed right there . Did you marry in Brackettville?
0: Yes. I've been married three times . • . my first marriage was in Brackett­vi
11 e.
M: Did you have children?
0: No .
M: How did you get to San Antonio?
0: That ' s. a long story . My mother and father moved down here . After I
marri.ed and separated , then I came down here .
M: How old were you then? Just a young woman?
0: Yeah . I guess in the 20s, 30s , something like that .
M: Now, your mother was . • .
0: Della Perryman Lee .
M: Let me remember again . She was a Seminole , he was black . O.K. Now,
when you were growi ng up, di d they tal k a lot about your grandfather, h.i s
famous deeds and things like that? Did you hear a lot about your grand­parents,
when you were growing up?
0: Not really . I didn ' t know my grandfather . He had passed ,
M: Had he?
,
DANIELS 3.
D: But I knew my grandmother. I was quite young when she passed. Early
teens, I guess .
M: But did she talk about the early days to you when you were a little
kid?
D: Oh yes. Let's see, it's been so long ago and my memory is not too
good. They were living on this reservation, out from Fort Clark, just in
a wilderness ,
M: There was a reservation out there?
D: Yeah . Off from Fort Clark .
M: I di dn' t know that.
D: They called it Camp Texas. I have a picture . . . it showed the type of
houses they lived in . They would put like slats together and fill them with
rocks , Then they would mix this lime and ashes or whatever, plastered , and
it was very warm, so· they say.
M: And it gets cold out there . How come they were living on the reserva­tion?
Do you know?
D: Well, wasn't that many blacks living in Brackettville at that time .
You see a lot of them had lived in Mexico, Old Mexico . A lot of them
living down there now .
M: Are there?
D: The descendants. The older people are all gone. And most of the
younger people have moved to Brackettville now. From Mexico .
M: From Mexico. There is a thing in this article about your grandfather
that mentions • . • it does mention here, "the Seminole reservation south­west
of Brackettville . " And then somewhere it says that they didn't get
any land for all of what they did but they had dual citizenship to go back
and forth between Mexico and the United States without visas or something
1 ike that.
DANIELS
M: Is the res.ervation still there?
D: Yes.
M: Are there people still living there?
4.
D: Oh, no. There's nothing there anymore . Some years ago, the people
would go down there to pick pecans. They have beautiful pecan trees .
M: On what was. the reservation?
D: Yes . That's how a lot of people made their money during the summer.
I've picked some by the bucketful . I've seen 'em pick gunny sacks full of
pecans.
M: So there were trees out there .
0: They're still there . I don't know if you'd call it a river or a creek
or what, runs through there.
M: Must have been pretty .
D: That's where they got their water . And they did a lot of fishing,
too .
M: Really? If I'm thinking right, that area is fairly near Del Rio,
isn't it?
D: No. No .
M: What am I thinking of?
D: Brackettville is near Del Rio, about 30 miles, but this, what I'm
talking about is about maybe four miles from Brackettville. It's just down
below our cemetery.
M: And the cemetery is still there.
D: Yes.
M: You're taking care of it?
D: Yes.
M: Let's get back to . •. your parents had moved to San Antonio and what
did they do here? What did your father do for a living?
DANIELS 5.
D: My dad, let ' s see, what did he do? He worked at Fort Sam doing some­thing
.
M: Did your mother work?
0: Yes . Did you know Mrs . Sol West?
M: I know the name but I didn ' t know her, no .
0: Lived on Huisache Street .
M: Sol West . That ' s. an old, old family , isn ' t H?
0: Kitty West, all that . • . they're all related .
M: She worked for them. And you came back here .
Now yo ur grandfather , . • we have this wonderful article. This will go
into the archives when we finish this for researchers, people, to use .
This is an article called OLD TIMERS from the Uvalde Leader News , written
the end of November, 1975, telling about John July . If he was your grand­father,
whose father was he , your mother's or your father's?
0: This man? He's not related to me .
M: Oh, he i s.n' t . He's a famous person in your group . I thought maybe he
was your grandfather.
0: No . His uncle was married to a cousin of mine .
M: So he's what we call shirt tail relative! This John July who has this
article written about him . Did they talk about him in your family . . .
0: Oh, yes . I knew him .
M: Oh, you knew him?
0: Yes .
M: Did he come from Florida when the Semi nol es moved from Florida?
0: He was born here . His parents probably did .
M: But he was born in Texas. Was he born out i.n Brackettvi 11 e?
D: I'm sure he was. On the reservation .
M; He was a Seminole now .
DANIELS
D:
M:
0:
M:
D:
Yes .
Was he part Indian and part black?
Yes .
Have you any idea how he got the name July?
Have no idea .
6.
M: Names interest me and I always wonder how people got their names.
July .
0:
M:
Interesting . Johh July .
I've met some people here named August.
Have you really? I have a whole book about names of towns in the
United States . "Names on the Land," it's called and it's the most interest­ing
book . You and I have just simple English names . Nothing very interest­ing
about our names. (Laughter) July is interesting to me.
I want to talk about John July . It says here in the story he was
born on May 5, 1887, on the Seminole reservation southwest of Brackett­ville
. His parents were Army Scout Billy July and Dolly Ward . Did you
know them?
D: Yes .
M: And they were there on the reservation . Both his grandfathers were
scouts--that would be back another generation . If his grandfather ... both
of his grandfathers on his mother's and father's sides, that means they
also were living on the reservation .
D: Oh, yes.
M: I didn't realize it went back that far. I wonder if we can find out
when that group left Florida?
D: I woul dn' t know that.
M: I wonder why they 1 eft Flori da?
D: I don't know that . Read this ; read that little part. (Clipping)
M: "The Seminoles , or Seminole Negroes need some historical explanation."
DANIELS 7.
M: They sure do! Nobody knows this. story. That's why I wanted to get
you on tape . "Reverence for their disti nguished ancestors ... much of the
history has been ignored or lost with time . But the facts and stories
which remain attest to probably the most unusual dedication to freedom
by a smal l group of people under the most difficult circumstances. The
Seminole Negroes were originally East Coast slaves who could not stand
the oppression and escaped into Florida," By East Coast, they mean the
East Coast of the United States apparently. New England and down in the
southern states like Carolina, Virginia . "where they found equal treat­ment
and a haven under such Seminole leaders as Osceola."
0: Ha ve you heard of him?
M: Sure. There' s a town or county named after him in Flori da . "Later,
under circumstances hardly complimentary to various Army official s, the
Seminole Negroes accompanied their Indian benefactors to Oklahoma terri­tory.
Following the Cherokee on 'the trail of tears' reservation life was,
again, oppressive and the quest for f reedom led both Seminoles and Negroes,
now considered Indians by the American government, according to records,
to Mexico . "
0: Yes, that's what I was saying . They migrated to Mexico.
M: Where they'd get better treatment .
0: Run away from sla very .
M: "After years of warfare, the Seminole Negroes were excellent horsemen
and marksmen together familiar with Indian ways and languages and noted
for their courage . The Mexican government used them extensively to control
the renegade Indians of northern Mexico . "
0: They fought the Indians over there.
M: What Indian group on the border has jus t been given land in the
DANIELS
8.
M: United States? O<i ckapoos] It's not the Semi no 1 es, 1'm tryi ng to
remember what is. the name of that group? They've been living in northern
Mexico (near Piedras Negras); anyway, they've now been given the legal
right to live in the United States, and given land.
0: It seems that I read that that Mr . McCormick that writes in the paper,
seems like he wrote something about that. I can't think of the name,
either .
M: It will come to me . "In the l870s the United States was losing the
war against those same lawless elements until U.S. Army Colonel McKenzie
discovered the value of the Seminole Negro scouts. Never numbering more
than 100 at any time in the Army . By now, America had also recognized
the right of all men to be free after the Civil War . " So this was after
1876 . "An unprecedented record of ga 11 antry was made by thi s sma 11 band.
General John Bullis • . • " (my mother, when she was young, knew a relative.
And one time when I was working, when I was a young person, the president
of the big company was named Bullis . ) " .• . and famous Phil Sheridan credited
these scouts with civilizing west Texas ."
"It was a sma 11 group of men and these generals and others carefully
noted the difference and great value of these scouts. Not to be confused
with the Buffalo soldiers . Four of them were to be among the first to win
the nation's highest honor for heroic action, the Congressional Medal of
Honor .•. yet neither our national or Texas history books have acknowledged
the contribution of these men to our national heritage."
That's interesting and that's one reason I wanted to get it on tape.
D: Did you read the back of it?
M: No . Here is a picture of a marker for Pompeii Factor and he won the
Congressional Medal of Honor. She's writing about the Seminole cemetery,
DANIELS 9.
M: "unique and historical" as the Indian scouts are buried here. Descen­dants
and families of these scouts . The Negro Seminole scouts cemetery was
begun in September, 1872, on the Fort Clark reservation. (In) 1881 the
Indian scouts fought their last Indian battle following the raid on the Rio
Grande . At that time the cemetery was under the supervision of Deacon Tony
Wilson who left us many years ago. Uncle Tony also l eft us with a constant
sense of pride, to be proud of our ancestors and their accomplishments . "
Now you mentioned a Perryman . "After the passing away of Uncle Tony,
Mr. Warren Perryman • ••
D: He was related to my mother.
M: Because your mother was a Perryman. "We respectfully called him
Uncle Warren. And he was buried in Uncle Warren was responsible
for helping city officials for obtaining, about 1940, headstones that now
mark the graves of over 100 scouts buried here ."
D: More than a hundred , I'm sure.
M: "His principles and ideals of our proud heritage will not forget the
graves of these scouts, honor and cherish them .
Around 1965 the restoration and preservation of the cemetery began .
The local historical society and Chamber of Commerce, etc • . •. donated their
time • . • etc . The grandson of Pompeii Perryman , Carlton Perryman, reorganized
the association in 1967. The organization is now registered with the State
of Texas ... sole purpose is to preserve and maintain . Membership in the
association includes almost every member of Brackettville's negro popula­tion.
Most of whom can trace their ancestry to one of the courageous scouts .
The old scouts are gone. Maybe from on high, they still watch over us ."
Let's go back and talk a little bit about John July.
D; I can't tell you any more than what's on there.
DANIELS 10,
M: Now John July, in addition to being a scout • . • there's a good deal
about him in this article being a cowboy , And he worked on a lot of
ranches . Do you know anything about that?
D: I knew about that but I wouldn't know the people that he worked for.
M: It mentions several ranches out in west Texas which I'm not familiar
with but that name Fritter , Fritter ranch, lit up my head because I remember
that interview we have in the file with a Fritter ,
D: The Fritters lived in Brackettville.
M: They're still there .
D: Some of them. Some have passed on ,
M: I didn't do those interviews but one of the men did it for me, went
out to Brackettville and interviewed three different people out there . The
name Fritter stays in my mimd . It was a woman .
D: A woman that they interviewed?
M: Yeah. In Brackettville . I guess he did that interview maybe two or
three years ago. It says here that John July became a well-known cowboy
and trained horses and trained his own. He says he worked for years for
40 cents a day .. • and then later he got 50 and then it went up to 66 cents.
D: That's terrible. Hard to believe.
M: With prices today, it sure is . But, of course, things were cheap then
and I suppose as a cowboy, I suppose you got your food and lodging; you
didn't have to pay for that .
D: Slept out under the trees most of the time.
M: Did they? I've got interviews with cowboys out in west Texas and it
seems to me that I remember that the cowboyS' big thing was their cowboy
boots .
D: They had to ha ve them .
DANIELS 11 .
M: I know they paid for those themselves so out of that 50 cents a day
they had to buy their boots . I don't suppose their boots cost more than
$5 . 00 in those days .
D: Probably.
M: Here it is . "When John was working on the Fritter ranch, he was
credited with having saved Dan Fritter's life ."
D: Dan?
M: Dan Fritter.
D: Dan Fritter had a brother named John Fritter and he was the judge there
in Brackettville for a long time . The Fritters had a lot . • . they were rich
people • . • they had a lot of rent houses that they rented to the blacks; any­body
that wanted them, if they had the money.
M: Well, it seems that this Fritter got into trouble, a bull attacked
him. And John July came up and got him off his horse and put him in a tree.
D: The man?
M: Mr. Fri.tter in a tree . Then the other cowboys finally got the bull . ..
D: • . • penned up . • .
M: Yeah . And then John July went back and got Fritter out of the tree.
(Laughter) That's a cute story .
D: Yeah. It is .
M: It said that John's grandfather had saved Lt . Bullis' life before
Bullis became a general. Even though he was a Seminole scout, apparently
his chief occupation was cowboy . That's the way he earned his living.
Did they ever talk in the family about him? What kind of a person
he was? Did they like to talk about the old days?
D: Oh, yes . He just died recently .. . I don't know how many years ago.
I didn't discuss anything with him so I really don't know.
M: You didn't talk with him ever? He never told you the story?
DANIELS 12 ,
D: Oh, no . I was around him all the time .
M: Did people have high respect for him; was he a highly respected per­son
for all he had done?
D: Yes.
M: The life he had led?
D: Oh, yes ,
M: He never wrote anything down, I suppose .
D: I'm sure he didn't .
M: Wouldn't that be great if he'd kept a diary!
D: They didn't know to do that . And most of them didn't have very much
schooling anyway.
M: I suppose not. But this was after the Civil War so they had a little
bit of improvement. "John and Lottie July" . • . are they any relation to you?
D: That's his wife. Lottie ,
M: That's right . You knew her?
D: Oh, yes ,
M: That's again a shirt tail relation .
D: Uh huh.
M: He talks about. , . "John's paternal grandparents were Sampson and Mary
JUly.
D: I didn't know them.
M: Did you know any of their eight sons? They had nine kids.
D: I only knew John.
M: Ei ght boys. You knew thei r son, John ,
D: Yes .
M: Eight boys and one girl .
D: I remember her, too .
DANIELS
M: She was a Wilson .
0: She married a Wilson .
M: When this was written, she was still teaching school .
0: No, not that Wilson .
M: It says thei r daughter was Rebecca.
0: No, you're not reading it right.
13.
M: John's paternal grandparents were Sam$son and Mary July. Their eight
sons were etc . , etc. Their daughter was Rebecca. Rebecca's daughter,
"Miss Charles Wilson" . • . it couldn't have been Miss Charles.
0: Yes, it's Miss Charles Wilson.
M: Was her name Charles?
D: Yes .
M: " ... is a school teacher in the Brackettvi lle school system. "
D: That's the one that wrote this . She's not married. She's an old maid.
M: Why do they say Mrs .?
0: ! don't know. It's a mis-print . Wait a minute, let me go back up
here. Hi s grandparent • . • ! see, was Sampson, and they had eight sons . One
of the sons, this man Bi lly, that was John's daddy. That 's not John's
children. That's his father . • .
M: John ' s paternal grandparents. And Billy . • .
D: • . • was John's father . This Rebecca Wilson is Miss Charles, is her
daughter .
M: And her name was Charles? Her first name was Charles.
D: Charles Emily Wilson . She's an old maid; she never married .
M: It says she co llects Seminole information and pictures . .. and then
we've already got this down that they moved to Oklahoma .
D: That's where some of them moved south to Nacimiento, Mexico and Musquiz.
M: I know Musquiz but I don't know Nacimiento .
DANIELS 14.
D: That' 5 farther down. Down into Mexi co . I've never been down there.
The fartherest I've been is Eagle Pass . You go through that way . Through
Piedras Negras.
M: It says that they have dual citizenship which means they can pass
freely between Texas and Mexico . And they were given the right to vote
with other Indians before negroes were allowed to vote .
D: They did . Because they didn't consider them really blacks ... we've
come a long way .
M: Yes, we have. We still have a little to go, though . But we're
doing O. K. I think. I was interested in the fact that there is an histori­can
marker out there.
D: At the cemetery?
M: Yeah. It says, "Seminole Indian Scouts Cemetery has an historical
marker dedicated in 19.70 . "
D: Yeah . That's there. I forgot that. We were out there a couple of
weeks ago and my cousin took a picture of that but she told me she hadn't
had the films developed . I was goi ng to bri ng that out here.
M: If you get a good picture, I'd like a copy of it to put in with this .
That would be interesting .
D: She hasn't had them developed yet . But she took a picture of it.
M: Oh, good. It tells what it says on here . And then it mentions that
some of the scouts that are buried in the cemetery are listed on the back
of the historic marker . There's one name I love: John Bowlegs. Did you
know him? (Laughter)
D: Oh, yeah. Years ago .
M: Was he bowlegged?
D: No . That was his name . They just used crazy names . You know Indians
DANIELS 15 ,
D: use funny names .
M: Sure did • . • I forgot it was an Indian name . And then there was an
Elijah Daniels , Is that any relation of your Daniels name?
D: Related to my husband .
M: And it's Daniels. Are you Daniels or Daniel ? You know, we had a
governor several years back and he makes a great point of it. It's Daniel,
Price Daniel ,
D: I know, but we are Daniels ,
M: Pompey.
D; Pom-pee.
M: Pompey Factor , Did you know him?
D: I knew him as a little girl , He was married to my grandmother' s
sister .
M: So there was a connection there. How about Renty Grayson , Did you
know him?
D: I remember him but I don't know too much about him. I wasn't around
him,
M: John Jefferson ,
D: I knew him. He was a big deal, too, in helping the people. He was
in the service, in the Army for about 30 years and was retired when I knew
him,
M: Billy July ,
D: That's a brother to the Fay July and those brothers I named . Billy
July was John's daddy .
M:
D:
Oh, yeah , we just marked that ,
That's Billy's brother.
M: Then there was George Kibbets .
And then there was also Sampson July.
7
DANIELS
0: George Kibbets is my great aunt's son.
M: Issac Payne .
0: I don't know him .
M: Pompey Perryman.
16.
0: Pompey Perryman was my mother's father's brother . So that made him
my uncle.
M: Joseph Phillips .
0: I knew him but I don't think we were ...
M: Billy Wilson .
0: Billy Wilson . •. that's Miss Charles' father . He was married to Rebecca
July. You know up here where you started? He was married to Rebecca July .
M: She was the only girl they had .
0: Only girl.
M: Eight boys and one girl. I see . And Isaac Wilson .. . that Wilson name
comes in all the way through, doesn't it?
0: That could be related to me because my grandparents, grandmother
rather, was a Wilson before she married the Perryman.
M: On your mother's side . That's your mother 's side of the family. And
then Kilena Wilson . That's an interesting name . K-E-L-I-N-A.
0: Oh, Kelina . That was her sister's child, too . My grandmother's
sister's child . They came from Mexico . They lived in Mexico until times
got so hard and then they moved to Brackettville. He has passed now . Most
of 'em are dead. Most everybody you read about in there is dead.
M: Well, this was written ten years ago . There's a good picture ... it
has reproduced very well, but you can tell the cavalrymen in Brackettville,
John's uncle, Charles , is second from the left . Then the older man in
the center is Primus Perryman. Also in your family, the Perryman name .
Here are some ladies .
DANIELS
0: Oh, thi& is the marker . I didn't get one .
M: Is that the picture she took?
D: Uh huh o
17 .
M: Here are the officers .• . now this was. ten years ago, eleven years ago .
D: This is the Seminole Cemetery Asso ciation . And these people belong
to ito Keep it clean and whatever .
M: Look after it . And this is Lottie July .
D: She's dead.
M: This is Hannah Daniels .
D: She's dead.
M: A relative of yours, I guess . o.
D: By marriage .
M: Clara Bell July.
D: She married a Mexican .
M: Charles Wilson.
D: That ' s the one that wrote that pieceo
M: That's the ladY o. owonder why she's named Charles? I suppose the
father wanted her to be named that instead of a son, maybe.
D: They had a cousin named Charles and I guess that was their favorite
cousin. I don't know. Her name is Charles Emily Wilson .
M: And Della Watson .
D: She's deceasedo
M: And then in the back is William Dubb Warrior .
D: He's living . He's the young man .
M: He's president of the group. Is he still president?
D: Yes .
M: Talk to me a little bit about this Association . Mary Carolyn told me
DANIELS
M: they meet once a year. Is that right? Out there?
D: They have meetings all the time . I don't know how often .
they have the Seminole Association is during Decoration Day.
goes out there to decorate their graves.
M: The end of May?
D: Yeah • . • 30th, whenever that is .
M: You went for the meeting this year .
D: Yes.
M: Do you try to go every yea r?
D: Most times I do .
18.
But when
Everybody
M: How many people are there? Can you guess? How many people come?
D: I can't tell.
M: A lot?
D: A lot.
M: A lot of people .
D: And even a lot of white folks come . Go to the cemetery . Then from
the cemetery, we go to the schoolhouse . And they have a big picnic ground
there and they barbecue and all the trimmings . This time they were selling
it because they are short of money but everybody pays dues to this Associa­tion
to keep it going. Sometimes they even have to bury somebody. Or
help them out, something like that. They are very closely knit people .
They try to help each other.
M: Well, it is a unique group. It is a very unique group in Texas. It
certai nly is.
When you go out to the meeting on Decoration Day, you meet out in the
cemetery?
D: Uh huh .
DANIELS
19.
M: Do people give speeches? Talk about the old timers and their history?
D: Yes . We sing; we sing a prayer; we have a pastor there to make remarks ,
We all go around and look for our relatives and put flowers on them. (The
graves) Then we have this little service afterwards and leave , And then
everybody goes back to the schoolhouse, the schoolyard, where they have the
food. It's more or less like a family reunion .
M: It is, isn't it. Are there many children? Do many children go?
D: To the cemetery?
M: Yes .
D: With their parents, yes . But it's not that many children there any­more.
It's just older people that's living there. Most everybody has
moved away.
M: That's too bad, isn't it?
D: But we all go back home once a year .
M: From allover Texas.
D: From out-of-state . People come from out-of-state.
M: Really? Like what?
D: Well, let's see who was there . They come from California. I'm
trying to think where that boy came from •. . I think he was from Chicago,
Illinois; wherever they're living. I can't name every place .
M: But they do come from near and far . Did any of them come up from
Mexico this year? Is there still a group down there?
D: There's still some down there but most of them have moved out. I
guess the elderly people are still there . I don't remember seeing any .
If there were, I didn't know them .
M: The reason I asked about the children was this is a piece of Texas
history that needs to be kept. The older people are going to die off and
DANIELS 20.
M: the kids need to carry it on . The children . That's why I was won­dering
if the children were being indoctrinated with the history of these
Seminole • . •
D: I'm sure they are . Those that have mothers .
M: Have you any idea of how many people were at this gathering this year?
D: I have no idea .
M: Was it a good bunch?
D: Yes . They had it for two days . I only got in on one day.
M: What did they do the second day?
D: They had stuff going on. They always have something going on.
M: Is there a big group still living in Brackettville? In that area?
D: Well, I don't know what you call a good group. It's not that many
people living there now .
M: Let's guess . . • about 20?
D: Could be 20; could be more . I don't know . They live . . . like some
live in Big Lake, Ozona, Kerrville • . • all around here .
M: Oh, they do?
D: Then some live out-of-state. Once a year they come home to this thing.
M: It's wonderful .
D: They send letters out to all of them, telling them when it's going to
be .
M: It's an association and you pay dues .
D: Yes. Supposed to .
M: It's great, isn't it? It gives you a kind of a tie; a family center
sort of thing . Can you think of anything else we should have on this tape
that we haven't talked about? Oh, let 's talk about the pictures . I'd love
to look at the pictures . (Album)
DANIELS 210
0: This book is falling to pieces, it's so old. Now this is that Fay
July that was this man's uncle .
M: John's uncle . John July's uncle . This is a U.S. Army photograph
and he . • . his jacket is fittin' him real tight. Now he has the features
of a black person .
0: He was a good looking man, though .
M: Yeah, he is good looking.
0: He has very small features . I don ' t think he • . • he didn't have the
big flat nose .
M: It's just interesting to see what mixing with the Indian blood did
to the face, body , and what not .
0: I don't know what this is . This is John Shields .
M: Those jackets with the little tiny collar • . •
0: That's the type of uniform they wore.
M: That is a uniform?
0: Uh huh .
M: I wonder what those things are on either side .
0: I don't know . It looks like flowers .
M: Looks like they might be poinsettias . Is that part of the uniform,
too, that flat hat?
0: Yes.
M: I wonder what color that jacket was.
0: I think this is a July, too . This is Sampson. I think he was the
oldest.
M: Now, he's got a uniform on and he has got a mus.tache . He' s the fi rs t
one that's got a mustache .
0: This lady here was their sister, Rebecca Wilson . And that's Miss
DANIELS
D: Charles, the one that wrote that paper.
M: That's her mother?
D: Yeah . She's deceased . They're all deceased.
22.
M: You can see some Indian blood in her. Can't you? Her eyes, heavy
1 i dded eyes .
D: This is a picture of my mother, my mother's sister .
M: Now she's a Perryman?
D: Yeah. She was a little darker .
M: The hair looks like it is straight .
D: They had pretty hair . This is my mother's sister; that's the baby
girl. And she had beautiful hair . Looked like Mexican hair .
M: That one standing next to her looks like she's a blonde . Look how
light her hair is .
D: It could have been red because there is some red hair in the family.
M: Really. That's all the style now to have red hair! But Indians
always had black hair. So there's no chance of getting any blondes in
that mixture.
D: I mean, they intermarried .
M: There are more pictures you didn't show me .
END OF TAPE I, Side 1,45 minutes
TAPE I, Side 2
M: And those were the uniforms. I love those uniforms . Tight fitting
jackets, buttoned all the way down the front, little tiny collars. White
shirt underneath. I wonder what color they were. Have you any idea?
Were they green or brown or khaki. The pants are a lighter color .
D: Seems like they would be blue .•. I really don ' t know. I tell who you
really need to talk to is Miss Charles Wilson from Brackettville .
DANIELS 23.
M: She knows all the stuff, eh?
D: She's older. And she would know more . I don't know whose baby that
is with the dog .
M: The dog is sitting on her lap . Look at that cute little kid . Who
is that?
D: I don't know who that is . This was my father's father and his wife.
That wasn't his mother, though .
M: Those are your grandparents .
D: Not really . He was but she wasn't . He married again. Their mother
died when they were kids. So he more or less married a nursemaid.
M: They do that. This is the first guy with the uniform but he' s got
boots on. He's the first one I've noticed with the boots with his pants
t ucked i n. I wonder who that cute little guy is .
D: I thought that was my dad. I'm not sure . All the little boys wore
dresses years ago .
M: I know. Kept their hair in curls.
D: This is Thomas Daniels. He was related to my husband. He did ranch
work and stuff like that . He's got boots on, too . He has on a shirt; he
doesn't have a jacket. And he' s got a gun on him . He could have been • ..
what did they call those people? Well, I guess, sco ut. They guarded the
houses or Whatever.
M: Also, the scouts were supposed to be very clever in dealing with the
Indians. In knowing their ways and how to find them, attack and surprise.
D: They said they had a certain type of whistle. They would whistle
like the Indians and the Indians would come, thinking it was another Indian
and they'd try to get 'em .
M: It seems to me I've read they communicated by whistling across the
DANIELS 24 .
M: valleys and things like that.
D: Like I said was my grandmother's sister. Her name was Mary Shields .
M: Wonder why she's got the umbrella .
D: They just posed all kind of ways . Well , they used umbrellas back then.
M: I've got an umbrella I use when it rains , haven ' t you?
D: But that was an accessory, more or less. They j ust carried one all
the time .
M: Against the sun, too . They used them against the sun .
D: That 's that same Shields I told you about. This is two little girls .
Look how they were dressed . •. I don't guess they were teenagers . .. they wore
long. 0-
M: Something at the bottom .
D: Probably crocheted . They were really dressed up • . .
M: . •. to have their picture taken . Aren't you lucky to have these
pi ctures!
D: I just wish I knew more about them. I wasn't interested, really.
M: Young people usually aren't .
D: But I am now. I wish that I knew more about him . I've had a lot
of people ask me a lot of questions that I can't answer .
M: Well, it's a good thing that this group is still active . I never
knew about them before .
I thank you for taking time to do this . This is wonderful to have
this .
END OF TAPE I , Side 2, about 10 minutes .
JONELL DANIELS
The blending of the Florida Seminole Indian and the east coast
runaway black slave, their moves to Oklahoma, Mexico and finally
Texas is an intriguing chapter in the rich history of Texas.
The remnants of the Seminole Negro race still live in Brackettville ,
(where thei r ancestral cemetery is) other Texas towns, as well as
California, Chicago, etc .