INTERV I Et4: JACK MAGUIRE ON "MORNING MAGAZINE"
MARY DENMAN with CARL WIGGLESWORTH
January 12, 1979
PLACE: WOAI RADIO STATION, San Antonio, Texas
TAPE RUNNING WITH CONVERSATION IN PROGRESS:
D: Uh huh .. . Bill Clements. And we have a gentleman here who has done
a lot of research on the Texas Governors and has come up with some odd facts.
Jack Maguire, wel come to 11 Morning Magazine . 11
Before we even ask you the first question, we ought to say that you
are the Director of The Institute of Texan Cultures, which is a fascinating
place . . .
. .. and the best storyteller I ' ve ever heard in my life.
M: (Laughter) Ah hah, bless you, bless you .
D: Thi s inaugurati on , Jack , which Governor are we inaugurating? He's
M: Well, that 's one of the questions I don't think that even Governor
Clements can answer . •le might be the 41st; he might be the 94th; he might
be the 98th; or he might be the l02nd ; . ..
D: Oh, come now, that's quite a di screpancy .
M: ... depending on how you look at history .
Forty-first to a hundred and second is a big difference.
Well, you see, the first Governor of Texas was named 456 years ago in
Oh yeah, before it was a state, obviously.
Before it was a State.
W: Back before there were States.
M: That 1 s ri gh t.
0: Who appointed that Governor?
M: The King of Spain, and there were three Royal Governors that were--
well, three others besides that one that served until 1691 when a government
was established for the province of Mexico in Texas . And then there
were 37 Spanish Governors appointed after that .
0: In addition to those Royal Governors?
M: That 1s right .
D: All right.
M: So that was 41 .
0: 0. K.
M: Then in 1822, Mexico won its independence from Spain and there were
14 Mexi can Governors .
0: O.K., which gets us up to what? Forty-two and . ..
M: Ah, you do the math .
W: A whole bunch .
M: And then between 1822 and 1836 there were 14 Mexican Governors .
Then, when Texas began its War for Independence , there were two provisional
Governors that served during the War.
D: Uh huh .
M: And then in 1836, of course , we elected four Presidents before we
became a State. And si nce we have become a State, there have been 38 men and
one woman who have held offi ce before Governor Clements . So on that basis,
he is the 41st Governor .
And I think that's what they are billing it as, aren't they?
They probably are.
But I thought the other was ...
How did they elect? I noticed you said that in a very short period
there were 14 Governors--Mexican Governors--when it was a part of
How did they determine Governors? It wasn't the election ~ was it?
Well, in those days , of course, we were a part of Mexico . . .
... and they were appointed by the ruler of Mexi co.
W: The ruler of ~1exico - -they were just appointed positions? Every couple
of years he must have changed his mind, huh?
M: Governors were appointed ' til we began electing Presidents of the
W: Presidents of the Republic--a lot of people think that would be a
good idea again .
M: (Laughter) It might be .
D: All right. This inauguration next week will be an interesting one
and you say that there have been all of these different gentlemen and one
M: Uh huh .
0: To ask you ab.out the one woman: Ma Ferguson, wasn't she?
M: Governor Ma Ferguson.
W: Governor Ma.
M: And she was the first woman elected Governor of any State. Texas
was first, as it often is in so many things.
M: She was elected in 1924 . She ran again in 1926 and lost to Dan
Moody. She ran again in 1930 and lost again to Ross Sterling. And then
she tried again in 1932 and she beat Mr. Sterling that time .
0: You mean her stick-to-itiveness finally paid off.
M: That's right.
0: She had her own term; she ran two more times and lost the elec-tions.
and then on her fourth try, she won.
M: That's right .
0: Incredible woman .
M: And, of course, she was the only Governor to be, also, the wife of
0: Now, this is how she got into the office in the first place?
M: Yes .
0: But then when she stood for her own election the first time, she
M: Yes .
0: O.K. How long of that·--of her husband's term--expired term--did
M: Well, she didn't go in . See, after--he was impeached in 1917.
W: What did he do?
M: Well, course, that 1S a long and another story. There were a number
of charges levied against him and the Senate did sit as a Court of Impeachment
and did impeach him. And that was--at that time--was when Mrs . Ferguson
said that she would come back as Governor.
In fact, there is a cute little story about the fact that when they
were leaving the Executive Mansion after he had been impeached, they were
driving a Packard automobile and she was driving. And she told him--he was
very depressed--and she turned to him and said, 11 0on 1 t worry, we 1 re going to
drive this same car back for another inauguration . ~~ And so when they got
back to their home in Temple, she put the car in the garage, let it sit there
from 1917 to 1924, and then after her election she got the car out of the
garage, put a new battery in it and tires on it and polished it all up.
And, on the day before inauguration, she drove back to Austin in the same
Packard with . ..
W: ... that they drove away in humility in.
M: That 1s right.
0: I want to know the sequence of these events . Now the impeachment
was- -was it that term that she filled out for . . ,?
M: No, no . He was impeached in 1917 . And she was not elected until
W: Now, that seems very strange.
t1: The Lieutenant Governor became Governor .
W: It seems very strange that they would elect the wife of a man they
had impeached because they would think that there would be a great deal of
influence. Was she still married to the same man?
M: Oh, yes. And he lived, of course, at the mansion with her ...
W: Uh huh.
M: ... while she was Governor.
D: They must have thought--either the politicians had changed £0 much
that all of the ones who had voted him out were no longer there; do you
think that might have been the case?
M: Well, of co urse, the Fergusons were very popular people with the
voters . You know, he was known as "Farmer Jim" and he had a great following
among the farm people . He did some things whi le he was in office that caused
an awful lot of people to get unhappy with him. You know, . . .
W: What did he do that was so bad?
M: .. . he closed the University of Texas .
W: Without going into the real details, what did he do? Was he for a
certain segment of our populace and against others? Or what? What caused
people to impeach him?
M: Well, he was opposed to education.
W: Opposed to education?
M: And he closed the University of Texas .
M: And there is an interesting story there. It was kept open by the
alumni . The Ex-Students Association got together and guaranteed the operation
of the University and kept it open .
M: The Legislature coul d do something about it .
M: But he was accused of a lot of things and, of course, I don •t know
what was true and what wasn't. But he was accused of taking money for
M: pardoning criminals in the State Prison .. .
W: Huh .
M: He was accused of misusing state funds .
D: Was Ma Ferguson's regime, when she was elected on her own and
served, was it a less hectic one than his?
M: Oh, yes.
D: She was not as involved in some of the things he was impeached
W: WE'LL BE BACK WITH JACK MAGUIRE AND MORE ABOUT OUR TEXAS GOVERNORS
IN JUST A MINUTE.
(COMMERCIALS) (WOAI RADIO)
W: .. . Jack Maguire is our guest; we're talking about former Governors
of Texas .. .
D: .. . and some interesting and unusual and little-known fa cts about
them. What are some of the things you've dug up in your research, Jack?
M: Well, you know we had one Governor who defeated himself.
D: He what?
M: Uh huh .
W: Now this ought to be good .
M: Allan Shivers .
W: Allan Shivers.
M: The only Governor who ever defeated himself. And it happened in
1952. He 1d been Governor three years and we had a law at that time whi ch
permitted candidates to cross-file. And so he, of course, was a Demo crat .
W: Uh huh .
M: He filed as a Democrat; then he also filed as a Republican .
W: Oh! Oh!
M: And so he won the nomination of both parties . And the interesting
thing is that in a General Election Allan Shivers~ the Democrat~ beat Allan
Shivers, the Republican, one mi1lion three hundred and seventy-five thousand
votes to four hundred and sixty-eight thousand .
W: Oh! Oh! (Laughter) All right.
W: That is wild . Ran on both tickets .
M: Ran on both ti ckets .
W: And won as a Democrat .
M: And we had one Governor who actually served both as a Democrat and
as a Republican .
D: Two different terms?
W: That was John Connally, right?
M: No, that was Elisha M. Pease . And he ran as a Democrat and served
a term, and then the Civil War came along and he switched his loyalties .
We 11, Democrats in Texas don't usually forget--and never forgive-and
that sort of thing, so he ran for Governor against J . W. Throckmorton
as a Republican . ..
W: Uh huh .
M: . .. and was defeated . But this was duri.ng the war, as I said, or
right after the war. And in 1866, the Military Government , the U.S.
Military Government, decided to remove Throckmorton from office. So they
did remove him and they named Pease--appointed Pease . So he served both as
a Democrat and as a Republican .
D: But now he never wo~ the election as a Republican?
M: No, no, he didn't .
D: Just as a Democrat .
M: Mr. Clements is the first Republican in 105 years .
D: Huh? All right .
W: Hummm. How amazing!
M: And I hope that when he leaves office, he leaves it more gracefully
than his predecessor, Edmund J . Davis, the Republican predecessor . Herefused
to give up the office after the election .
D: Ah, now, he was the--when was this?
M: Oh, this was 105 (laughingly) years ago .
D: A 11 right .
M: He barricaded himself in his office .
W: The Governor of the State barricaded himself in the office?
M: That's right.
It was after he had lost. And he barricaded himself in the office,
refused to give it up. And telephoned--oh, telephoned--no--he didn ' t telephone
because we didn't have telephones in those days . He wired the President
of the United States who was U.S. Grant, asking him to send Federal
Troops to keep him in office .
W: Why was he so insistent on staying in office?
M: Well, he liked being Governor.
W: Liked the food, huh?
M: And I don•t want to make this sound partisan at all , because I don't
intend it to be, but he was probably the nearest thing to a Dictator Texas
M: ever had . He had a Secret Police ...
M: ... Force; he appointed people to office that he ruled with an iron
hand; he was the closest thing, probably, to a Dictator the State ever had .
And he wanted to stay in office.
D: Well, I'm interested: Did Grant send troops?
M: No, no, Grant wired him back and told him he'd better bow to the
will of the people.
D: Good for Grant! (Laughter)
M: And so the Sheriff of Travis County finally went down and hauled
him out of the Capitol .
D: Bodily removed him.
M: Bodily removed him .
W: That's an incredible story.
D: That really is.
M: So we've had a lot of incredible things happen there.
W: WE'VE GOT ABOUT A MINUTE AND A HALF OF MORE TIME. HAVE YOU GOT
ONE MORE LITTLE INCREDIBLE? A SHORT INCREDIBLE?
M: Hummm. Got all kinds of ones--you might like to know that the lar-gest
Governor was Richard B. Hubbard . He wei ghed more than 300 pounds . And
he was so big that he had to have a special bathtub install ed in the Governor
' s Mansion.
D: (Laughter) Couldn't get in the other one.
W: Where was he from? What part of the State?
M: Oh, he was from East Texas, I believe.
D: When did he serve? Approximately what time?
MAGUIRE 11 .
M: Oh, it was in the early 1900's .
W: That was the biggest Governor in the State.
D: Who was the smallest? Do you know?
M: No, Price Daniel might have been, I don't know . He was--Price
Daniel has probably held more public offices than any other Governor with the
exeception of Sam Houston. Daniel was Attorney General; he was a member of
the Legislature; he was Speaker of the House; he was Governor; he was United
States Senator--and a Justice of the Supreme Court .
D: He did it all, huh? Was the Governorship his last .. . ?
D: He went to the Supreme Court after--that's right .
M: He just retired from the Supreme Court .
W: What did Sam Houston do that he didn't, then? Seems like he covered
M: Well, Sam Houston, of course , had been elected to several offices
from Tennessee before he came to Texas .
W: Oh, so he was an official in other states- -an elected representa-tive
in other states, too . That is quite a story .
D: Are you going to publish all of these interesting facts in one of
your newest tomes?
M: (Laughter) Well, there is a chapter on gubernatorial inaugurations
and another chapter on Governors in my new book .
D: I figured there might . . . we really do appreciate your sharing some
of these delightful things with us .
M: I enjoyed being here with you .
0: Because it is an interesting time we•re in right now.
W: Maybe we•11 have a governor this time who will give you some more
facts for your next one; you know, something unusual that this governor
M: Well, I•m sorry we didn•t get a chance to talk about inaugurations
because a lot of crazy things have happened (laughingly) at inaugurations
many times. As you know, the inauguration is next Tuesday, of course .
W: Well, we 1ll have to have you back again.
0: Thank you for being with. us, Jack Maguire .
END OF TAPE SEGMENT JM TAPE I
Side 1 approximately 20 11 (full side of tape used)
*For further information on Texas Governors, see Jack Maguire•s book on
that subject to be published in the fall of 1985 .
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