THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: African-American Troops in WWII
INTERVIEW WITH: T.R. Fehrenbach (Tape 1 of 1)
DATE: 30 May 2001
PLACE: His office on Broadway, San Antonio
INTERVIEWER: Sarah Massey
TAPE 1, SIDE 1
F: ...with African-Americans. I mean that’s the only way I can put it.
M: Yeah.
F: In the military, yeah.
M: Okay. Today is Wednesday, May 30, 2001, and my name is Sarah Massey, with the Institute of Texan Cultures. And I’m here to interview T.R. Fehrenbach on his experiences in World War I, in relation to the African-American troops. And I’d like to start off with what does T.R. stand for in Fehrenbach?
F: Theodore Reed?
M: Reed. Is that R-e-i-d?
F: R-e-e-d.
M: R-e-e-d. And when were you born?
F: 12 January 1925, which means that your statement of about in World War I needs to be corrected.
M: Corrected. It’s World War II – not World War I. And were you born here in Texas?T.R. Fehrenbach 2
F: Yes, in San Benito.
M: Okay. And did you grow up in San Benito? Or in other places in Texas?
F: I left San Benito when I was about five, and moved outside of Brownsville, which was semi-rural type of domicile, and grew up until age twelve, and I went to high school then in California. And afterwards, at the age of sixteen I went East to school and eventually finally graduated from Princeton University. After that I – during that – between those periods and afterwards I spent some
time in the Army. And the rest of my life I’ve lived in San Antonio. The majority of it – the last part of it in San Antonio. I have two grandparents buried in this city, and two grandparents buried in the Rio Grande Valley.
M: And after you went to school you went into the military?
F: Actually in World War II I was in the middle of college and went into the military. There were no deferments, and I think quite rightly, in World War II. No student deferments or anything like that. Even medical students, whom they did not want to disturb, were drafted and made privates in the Army and then sent to medical school in uniform. I mean – to clarify that.
M: Yeah.
F: And so I entered the military at the age of eighteen, T.R. Fehrenbach 3
and I served thirty-some months during World War II.
M: And where did you do that service?
F: I served in the United States. I served training groups, primarily. And then I went to the Pacific in the late stages of the war.
M: And were you an officer?
F: I was an officer at the end of the war. I got a direct commission from my service as a platoon sergeant and as a first sergeant. But this was late in the war.
M: And so you were in the Army then?
F: Yes.
M: Okay. And where...what was your most experience with African-American troops?
F: The most, I think significant, and the one I want to talk about, was in Louisiana in 1944, in which as a non-commissioned officer I was assigned to an all-black unit. I’m deliberately not going to use certain names – some of these people are still alive. ...[inaudible]...units, and I think it will be clear as we go through as to why I prefer not to do it. But it was an all-black unit except for a hundred and seven white officers and NCOs. It was quite common then to assign a certain number of white officers and - even though there were quite a few black officers - and white NCOs in certain technical positions. Assuming, or may be true, that the African-Americans did not have people to T.R. Fehrenbach 4
fill those slots. It was a reverse sort of discrimination. At that time no black person could serve in a white unit, but white people could command and serve in black units.
F: And that had been true for...
M: Years.
F: ...for many years – generations. And this was approximately a three thousand – it was three to four thousand. I don’t remember the unit - at Camp Claiborne Louisiana, which is no longer in existence. But it’s near Camp Polk, and it’s in the middle of the big swamp, sort of speaking, and that has really has nothing to do with it. It’s near Alexandria, Louisiana. The thing that I remember most vividly from this training experience - and I’ll go through quite a bit of it - I had never been around black, or Negro as we called them then, people in my life. And I don’t mean this as a joke, but ironically I grew up in a town...my formative years were Brownsville. And Brownsville had a city ordinance against any African-American living in town, which grew out of a terrible riot in the early part of the century, which is well-known, in 1906 or something.
M: Uh-huh.
F: When a military unit, you know, rebelled and shot some civilians and vice-versa. And, consequently, no black person could spend the night in Brownsville. And this meant that not even...people couldn’t even be in service there; T.R. Fehrenbach 5
there just weren’t any. And so it was a new experience for me...[inaudible] so many white people I had never been around, knew nothing about it and I think just assumed that, well, you know, it’s an interesting thing. What...I’ll give F: you the circumstances. We were in this rather miserable base. And it was miserable because of just general conditions in the war. They made these great expansions, temporary type forts – it wasn’t a fort it was a camp – and they put them in places that nobody really wanted. You know, out of the way but it was logical. You wouldn’t make a training in a good dairy state or something like that.
M: Yeah.
F: So...and the weather is not at all pleasant. It’s hot in the summer and very sticky, and so you’re fairly isolated. Now within this, our unit was fairly isolated because it was stuck over in one corner of the post - one area of the post. And I might say this was an engineering unit. It was...but it was an engineering service group, not combat.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And if you want to know what engineering services were – in the case of the black troops – these were labor. In effect, you know, people to...
M: Dig.T.R. Fehrenbach 6
F: To dig, unload trucks, this type – dock services, quartermaster – but basically what we’d call labor, and obviously the sort that in big cities, you know, gather on the corner and are picked up and go out to do odd jobs.
M: Uh-huh.
F: It was not very much technics in it – or technical skill. So our training was rather sketchy. And, of course, it was of a military nature; they were also soldiers and they had to be trained to use firearms and basic tactics and things of that sort. One of the problems I noticed immediately was that this double standard still went on. There was a...some black service institutions in our area. But there was no movie and there was no good PX, post exchange, in that area. As a white person I could go into the black, you know, PX, theater, if I wanted to.
M: Uh-huh.
F: But they could not go in under the segregation – they could not go into white.
M: Uh-huh.
F: So the thing was, that there was in, near the area where we were there were some white facilities – their facilities were further away. I may not be clear on this but...
M: Yeah.
F: In other words, it was a great inconvenience. T.R. Fehrenbach 7
M: ...for them to get there.
F: Yes. To...it’s a petty thing but a very real thing. And another thing that I became aware of, pretty quickly, was that the problems the troops had off-post. This was in the middle of southern Louisiana, and this is the 1940s and this is – if you can remember some of the films of the
F: 1960s, you know some of that. Well, the local cops of all different kinds would never give one of the black servicemen a break; you know, they were always getting arrested for something - and no respect for them being in uniform. And this is what I’m getting at, which bothered me and bothered some of the other people that had this experience, was that whatever one might think personally of the individuals, these were United States soldiers. They wore the uniform, they were given rank, they had the same pay, and I always felt that the uniform deserved respect. You know, they were...after all we were on the same side.
M: Side, yes.
F: Fighting. And we didn’t think of it, really, in terms of citizenship I think much then, you know, in that sense. We’re all citizens. But also at that time it was perfectly accepted in that area that black people did not vote. When I say accepted - by the whites and, I think, the blacks -there wasn’t any rebellion. And segregation throughout the south, and in many parts of the country, was the rule.T.R. Fehrenbach 8
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know, I mean in the back of the bus and all of this. But in the army it seemed, it seemed particularly acute and particularly, to me.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And particularly objectionable.
M: Uh-huh.
F: That’s...I have to admit I didn’t, I did not think about it being objectionable so much in civilian life.
M: Uh-huh.
F: ...at that time. But it just seemed, again, because in a certain sense I was also an oppressed soldier in the middle of this swamp...
M: Yeah.
F: ...sweating, you know...
M: Yeah. Yeah.
F: ...and all. You know, our lot was pretty much the same. I used oppressed, you know, in a jocular way.
M: Yeah.
F: Okay. The...also there were certain things we began to have problems with, and I put them in no particular order. One was, the educational qualifications of the troops we had were varied. There were many high school graduates. The great majority had virtually no education. And these men came from all over. Incidentally, they were not...of courseT.R. Fehrenbach 9
at that time the great majority of African-Americans still lived in the south, so most came from the south. But we also had people from Baltimore, New York and all, and in many cases this was a source of trouble. They had never been...they’d never really experienced black, you know, until they went south. I mean, whatever disadvantages they might have had, you know, in Harlem and all.
M: Yeah.
F: They had never really experienced this overt thing, you know.
M: In the oppression of the south.
F: Yes. Where you couldn’t use the drinking fountain. You couldn’t ride on the trains, you know, in the same cars. You know, the black cars were all separate, you know, this was apartheid...
M: Uh-huh.
F: ...you know, all the way up and down. And whereas in the north, I think - at least I remember they had that only, really, in housing.
M: Uh-huh.
F: Because I remember still in this same period a little later, going...whites went into Harlem all the time then – perfectly safe, you know, go to the nightclub. In fact, the Harlem nightclubs couldn’t have survived without white...
M: Yeah.T.R. Fehrenbach 10
F: ...trade at that time.
M: Yeah.
F: Twenty years later I don’t think a white face would dare show up, you know, in that area.
M: ...[inaudible].
F: I mean, that’s how the crime situation went up so badly.
M: Uh-huh.
F: But to go back. The...I became aware that you...that F: even at that age, we were working with what you might say was different material, you know, than you might see in the movies and the World War II-type things.
M: Yeah. Yeah.
F: And also the great sullenness. And it was explained to us, because we went to a number of sessions – white – and these were not sensitivity sessions but these were rather arrogant, get-to-know-your-Negro sessions. You know.
M: Uh-huh.
F: Psychiatrists, psychologists and all.
M: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
F: And one of the things they left me with - I can’t tell you all the rest of it, I can’t remember it - was that you were facing a mass of, I guess it was a mass sense of humiliation. I’m trying...the word, in other words, it was the opposite of a superiority – an inferiority complex, theyT.R. Fehrenbach 11
used that word.
M: Uh-huh.
F: I think this may have been true. I don’t know. But, in other words, you had people whose self-esteem was not high.
M: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah.
F: And...[inaudible] give them some of the reasons.
M: Yeah.
F: And this is very, very difficult to make soldiers out of people who do not have high self-esteem. In fact, from F: my later experience, I think it’s impossible. That’s...in fact, some of the best soldiers are the most arrogant louts you can imagine...
M: Okay.
F: ...because they behave in a boorish fashion, you know, on the battlefield and to the enemy.
M: Yeah.
F: You don’t want to meet a polite guy out there with a bayonet. And, anyway, the...so often had a sense – and I’m talking about...[inaudible] – often had a sense that, when you were with the troops, there was this kind of, well, you know, sullen - you know type – a lot of muttering, you know.
M: Yeah.
F: In the ranks, you know, this kind. And some of the whites used to joke about it, and they’d say, you know, T.R. Fehrenbach 12
like, “We’re in Africa, you know, the tribes, because they go (make sounds)...”
M: Yeah. Well, how did you end up being with the black troops?
F: I just got assigned there. I mean that’s...
M: Assigned.
F: That’s one of the...at my rank, I just happened to be in the wrong place at the right time.
M: Uh-huh.
F: I’m just saying... Now, I’ll go further. We started to have big trouble in this unit. I wasn’t aware of it too F: much, you know. But I’ve given some of the background. Another thing that happened at that time – you have to remember the army at this stage in World War II took men if they had a pulse, almost. There were no standards, also. I mean, really, just educationally – they’d never been to school, they were illiterate, it didn’t matter. And a lot of our people were illiterate. I mean, I found out the... they’d never really been to school beyond the second, third grade.
M: Uh-huh.
F: There was no effort in many states, including Texas, you know, to keep people in school at that time. So working class blacks, and also Hispanics, rarely had education beyond third or fourth grade, which meant they were T.R. Fehrenbach 13
functionally illiterate.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And another thing was the health situation of many people with very, very badly...I mean they just weren’t too healthy.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And that was – again, I found out later, I didn’t know at the time, this...a lot of times was deprivation of diet.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know, eating...[inaudible] – since they were all young men it hadn’t killed them yet. But, I mean, you know,
with a diet and they – outside of greens - they wouldn’t eat F: any kind of healthy food. Our mess stewards would go to the whites and trade off. You know, in other words, when they’d get the kind of things, would trade for more meat and potatoes, you know, that kind...
M: Yeah.
F: Trade off the vegetables.
M: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
F: Well, they weren’t...the reason I’m saying they weren’t brought up in homes where, except for greens – of course, the Army never provided greens, you know, the good old southern greens.
M: Yeah.
F: So our people also were eating a three thousand plus T.R. Fehrenbach 14
calorie diet, which was cholesterol heavy.
M: Heavy. Yeah.
F: And...but when I said about the health – also they took men, then, who had congenital syphilis. Frankly, a great number of people in the unit had it, and they were taking treatment. It used to be a joke in my unit because of a certain day of the month...
M: Yeah.
F: ...you know, that we went for this. And the...hen they’d have them fall out, they would get out there – the others would, you know, laugh at them, they’d say...they’d get out and say, “Well, you ain’t real men, you know; you ain’t getting yours”, you know, and all this.
M: Yeah.
F: You know, attitude, though a lot of it was congenital. And when I say – I’m not an expert - but syphilis and some sexual transmitted diseases go dormant.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know, they’ll come back later but...
M: Yeah.
F: But they had it. And some of these, because I remember talking, “Why in the world, you know, where are these men all getting it? They said, “Well, they all came in with it.” I don’t care what the record says, the Army took people like that. Now, the reason we know they...why I knowT.R. Fehrenbach 15
that, was that in those days anybody, and this was white black or purple, that had this situation, they put a red dot on their service record. Service record is a little packet that follows...
M: Uh-huh.
F: That follows...
M: Yeah.
F: ...follows the soldier around. And in other words, when he goes...
M: So if you had syphilis you had a red dot on there.
F: Yes, you had red dot. You had that, and we had a lot of men with red dots. That stuck in my mind. I’d never run into...never realized the, frankly, you know, the health and the tremendous amount of sexually-transmitted diseases. And F: the fact that a lot of it was, when I say congenital, had been acquired very, very early.
M: Um.
F: I’m not an expert on this, I’ve just noted what I was told.
M: Yeah.
F: Now, several things happened. One, I’ve given you a kind of a background of...
M: Uh-huh.
F: ...of Camp Swampy here.
M: Yeah. Camp Swampy.T.R. Fehrenbach 16
F: Or Fort Miserable.
M: Okay.
F: Which was...I mean, it wasn’t that bad, but it...
M: Yeah.
F: [Phone rings] Excuse me. [Break in tape]
M: We’ve just completed the background.
F: Yes.
M: Okay.
F: Now I’ve given this background. Problems began to develop in this unit, developed...[inaudible]. And I don’t begin to pretend that I knew all of this was transpiring. I was not on the policy level. I was a non-commissioned officer. And a sort of technician. And one is that we had a very poor commander, a weak commander, and a commander – a regimental commander - who was not very good judgment. I
F: can see this very clearly later. We understood, or I understand from other information, that he had done – he was a regular Army officer - he had done poorly in North Africa. He had gone in November ’42 and by early ’43 – something – and so poorly that he was sent back to the United States. Not...you had to be something terrible to be cashiered then, and sent to the black troops. You’ve got to remember this is the Fort Huachuca of careerdom.
M: Uh-huh.
F: Fort Huachuca being where... T.R. Fehrenbach 17
M: Yeah.
F: ...at that time, where...
M: This is the worst thing that could happen to a commander, to be sent to...
F: Yeah. Yes. To go...to get this kind of command. And it was not a career move, you might say, at all. And I might add, all these things I’ve said today do not exist in today’s Army in any way. From the...most of the men in this unit today wouldn’t be in the Army; and I have to say, they wouldn’t be acceptable standard-wise.
M: Uh-huh.
F: I mean they – in their health and certainly the venereal disease...
M: Education.
F: And the education and any kind of record, you know – criminality.
M: Uh-huh.
F: ...which was kind of waived, you know. After...the judge would say, like, “You want to go to the Army or you want to go to jail?”, in those days.
M: Ah.
F: That’s not done today.
M: Yeah.
F: I mean, I just want to say this is a period piece of the time and I don’t want it...nothing like that is T.R. Fehrenbach 18
happening, I can tell you, because I was later in the Army when the Army integrated.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And there were some problems, but nothing like this. You know, this was at another period, not during a major war. So the...a lot of our problems that came forth came from command practices, because there were definite grievances among the troops. There were people who we tended to call agitators then. And who subscribed and got copies of certain northern black newspapers - I mean published in the north. The one from Baltimore. And these were really activists.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know, I mean, constantly screaming discrim...I mean they were really rather violent.
M: Uh-huh.
F: I’d never seen anything like that. I think most whites F: had never...
M: Yeah.
F: ...you know, had never seen them. And, of course, they reported everything that was going on in Camp Swampy. You know how those things...
M: Yeah.
F: And so there was a...built on a real feeling, a sullen feeling of resentment, you know, and deprivation. And also T.R. Fehrenbach 19
with this feeling of humiliation, which I think was forced upon all blacks at that time.
M: Um.
F: In a very real sense. I mean, remember they were not considered equal. They were not allowed to be considered, you know...even the northern whites did not consider blacks equal. I listened to too many northern...
M: Yeah. So part of your job was to humiliate these soldiers.
F: Yeah, well, not...it wasn’t really to do that, but the system did it. Now the point, here’s where it came out – I think the point of our job was not to do that. Our job was to make soldiers out of them. If I can say that patronizingly.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And you don’t do it...to do that you have to build up people’s self-esteem. You have to treat – if you’ll excuse the chauvinistic of men, like men.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know what I mean, not boys. You’ve got to do things, all of which the policy went totally against. And we could never have made combat troops out of these. I’m just saying that...
M: Yeah.
F: ...that isn’t where you get combat troops. The...we T.R. Fehrenbach 20
had trouble making good service troops. The commander should have done something for the men, even if it was only symbolic.
M: Uh-huh.
F: I say this because later I was in situations something, not quite like this, where even a symbolic action, you know, it’s not going to do any good.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know, you’re simply running up the flag, but your people appreciate it.
M: He tried to do something.
F: You’re...yes, you know, you’re standing out there willing to get shot at – you know what I mean.
M: Yeah.
F: For their sake...and those things are important. Otherwise, if you don’t do them they’ll think, well, you don’t care. You know.
M: And this guy didn’t do this.
F: No. This guy clearly didn’t. I don’t know whether he F: didn’t care or he was inept or what. He may have been an alcoholic. I wasn’t...at my rank I wasn’t that close to him.
M: Yeah.
F: ...[inaudible] we had a lot of those, you know, at that time – the Army tolerated alcoholics in command positions.T.R. Fehrenbach 21
M: Uh-huh.
F: And not...they didn’t last very long. Let me put it this way, got into theater in combat...
M: Uh-huh.
F: I don’t want...
M: In a combat situation those guys were wiped out.
F: But remember we had eight million men and, you know, ...[inaudible]. No, they’d get relieved very quickly, I assure you; I’ve seen that done. And anyway, command took no steps to do things, and we began to find that there were incidents and sullenness and agitation, you know, groups gathering and...[inaudible]. I can’t tell you exactly what they said because I had no entry - you know what I mean.
M: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
F: The minute me and my white face appeared, you know...
M: The conversation was ended.
F: Yeah, they’re not going on.
M: Yeah.
F: Anyway, they found that some of the men were, I don’t know, and I have to say here I felt sorry for a certain
F: number of the black NCOs, who were basically career-types, very good. And they were caught between, I think, the white world which they didn’t love very much and a sense of duty and a black world that they kind of...among men that, well, I think they both loved and despised them.T.R. Fehrenbach 22
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know what I mean. They were caught trying to do their duty. That’s another story, another subject, and I’d be getting into other men’s heads. But...
M: Yeah.
F: That...but anyway, they discovered that some of these troops had stashed arms - you know, weapons, ammunition - underneath the barracks...[inaudible] hidden places.
M: Um.
F: Well, then we got all kinds of little things going on and these were the wrong command things. One, after the rifle range a shakedown, everybody’d make sure they had no ammunition. You know, like you go to the range, you know, you don’t keep count of rounds. And these troops would put ammunition in their pocket and, you know, I had to search everybody.
M: Um.
F: ...[inaudible] kind of humiliating. You know, I never saw it done anywhere else. And then, also, it got bad. And so we got orders to never appear by ourselves – these were disastrous type things - like no white to appear – you
F: always go with...
M: A buddy.
F: ...others, at least two of you. You know, don’t go down there by yourself – it’s dangerous. And then...then T.R. Fehrenbach 23
they suggested that we wear side-arms, you know, that we wear...
M: You go armed.
F: Go armed. Well, you have to understand the context, but I think most military men, or almost any police, would understand that this was the wrong way to go.
M: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
F: You know what I mean? This is just...[inaudible]
M: Yeah.
F: Well, anyway, I can’t say I knew everything that was going, but finally one day a large number of, maybe a third, of this regiment appeared in front of the headquarters, which was a low – like these were World War II one story buildings, you’ve seen...[inaudible] them.
M: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
F: And what they were really after, I don’t know that. But anyway some of them were armed; they had all kinds of arms. Some of them had their GI weapons, you know, and ammunition, which they had...
M: So there was a mutiny then?
F: There was a mutiny. This was an armed mutiny, in a sense. I mean I guess you’d call it...it had to be called F: that.
M: Yeah.
F: All right. Not all of the troops you understand, you T.R. Fehrenbach 24
know; it wasn’t the whole regiment.
M: Okay.
F: It was about a third. I didn’t count them; I saw them but I didn’t count them.
M: Yeah.
F: Anyway, and there was this thing, and it was almost like you see - and I don’t mean this in a demeaning way - but it was almost like you hear the mumbling, you know; it was like the tribes getting ready to fight.
M: Fight.
F: Mumble, mumble, [makes sounds], you know, talking...
M: Yeah. Yeah.
F: [Makes sounds], you know, and so forth. Well, some of our...going back to the whites, I remember Herman...[Name inaudible] Mississippi, and he said, you know,...anyways we were talking Custer’s last stand is going to be, you know...
M: Yeah.
F: And we...and anyway I will say this, we all kept a very ...we got in together.
M: Yeah.
F: You know, together in barracks, about a hundred of us, and kept a very low profile. And left it up to – well, I won’t say his name, but anyway the commander and a couple of F: the other ranking officers.
M: Yeah.T.R. Fehrenbach 25
F: To do something about...you know, to handle it. Well, what happened was that, I think that, essentially, this was a peaceful protest because they...
M: ...[inaudible] okay...[inaudible].
F: They didn’t fight. When I say peaceful they...it looked like absolute mutiny, and it was, but they, you know, there were no shots fired, there were no, I might say... nobody, you know, hurt or anything like that.
M: But they were armed?
F: Oh, yes, they were armed. I can’t say all of them were armed, but some of them were armed. And also they had home-made weapons. I didn’t mention this. I’d seen...they’d taken files and made knives. There’s a name for that, and I forget what it was. You know...
M: Yeah.
F: You can take a file and then grind it out and sharpen it and you’ve got a very hard steel.
M: Stilleto?
F: You know. Knife. Well, no, it’s just like a dagger, a knife.
M: A knife. Okay.
F: And...
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1.
SIDE 2.
F: The...I haven’t given a sense of time frame, but it’s a T.R. Fehrenbach 26
little vague on my mind now, exactly, you know how this...I don’t think these people all showed up at once. They started showing up, and, again, the commander didn’t know, you know, didn’t know what to do with it.
M: ...[inaudible].
F: What we did was,‘cause we weren’t...when I say I think it was not really an effort to wipe us out – the whites out – because they could have done that. You know, I mean it wasn’t any problem to ransack the headquarters and kill all of us if they wanted to.
M: Yeah.
F: I don’t think that was the intent. You know. It may have been the intent of some of them, but they wanted to register a real protest – a complaint about many things. And I don’t know that...what the exact specifics where. I don’t remember. I’m sure I knew at the time. The...what happened was that our unit, we got on the horn – on the phone - to Camp Polk which was not very far away. There were four...there was an Air Force Base, Camp Polk, and 84th Division, I think it was the Rail Splitters. And they were getting ready to go to Europe at that time. They were just about to embark, and so they were pretty combat-ready. And asked to send reinforcements. There were no combat troops – white combat troops - at Camp Claiborne. I didn’t mention that. But there were no real combats units.T.R. Fehrenbach 27
M: Um. Okay.
F: So the...there were engineer troops and different things. Well, anyway, the commander of this division sent some M8 scout cars – those are wheeled vehicles, look like a tank. They have light armor, carried a 37 millimeter canon, a very little light canon. Not a tank, but they look like a tank on wheels.
M: Okay.
F: And they’re armored – I mean they’ll stop small arms. Well, these had a top road speed of about 55 miles per hour.
M: Um. Okay.
F: So they got over there very quick.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And they had sirens on them – some of them I guess, I can’t remember whether all of them had it or not. Well, anyway they came in and they put the sirens on and they sent, like equipment that accompanied these – probably pulled them out of recon platoons, you know, all over. And so, you had a whole bunch of these what looked like tanks on wheels come screaming in, you know, and they’re up right in front of the...and they just pushed the people out, –You know, the others got, well, they didn’t hit them but the others got out of the way.
M: Yeah.
F: There was a little separation, you know, between the T.R. Fehrenbach 28
building and where the troops were.
M: Okay.
F: And once they were there, it was all over. It was not, you know, it didn’t make any sense...[inaudible] just kind of sat. So what happened, like when you have lost the battle, the people in the rear ranks start leaving.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know what I mean; they were all leaving.
M: Uh-huh. Deserters.
F: They were all leaving, and so all of these people out there, you know, in effect were told to disperse, and they dispersed.
M: Yeah. And what happened to their commander?
F: I do not know what happened to the commander. I mean, I’m sure that something...that he must have been relieved again. I’ll tell you why. A short time before this I had, along with my friend Herman ...[Tercel?]... I mention him because he came in...[inaudible] State Senator later from Mississippi, and all, and a very good man. We had decided to pull every string we could to get out of this.
M: This unit.
F: ...place, yes. And I say that frankly.
M: Yeah.
F: I mean this was the feeling.
M: Yeah. This was not a good place to be for a white T.R. Fehrenbach 29
person.
F: I remember, no, this was just not – it was not...it was F: not our idea of the war. And we got – I won’t tell the different ways - you know, we got transferred. And I imagine they broke this whole unit up. They should have, because when you have that kind of situation you want to break it up.
M: Yeah.
F: I do know this because I was just there long enough and this was kind of hairy... They said to go down and arrest some of the people that had been identified as – not arrest the whole group...
M: Uh-huh.
F: ...but those that had been identified as agitators, you know.
M: Uh-huh.
F: Ringleaders, whatever you want to call it. This was done without any real trouble. I mean, there was no fighting or assault. What members of the group...the squad that went down simply said, “Okay, you’re under arrest.” You know. And it’s kind of like you either surrender or we’ll shoot you.
M: Yeah.
F: I mean there’s no...so it...and there was no real protest. What I’m trying to – I mean, protest – there was T.R. Fehrenbach 30
no resistance, that’s what I’m trying to say.
M: Okay. Yeah.
F: I understand that later some of these people were...I F: heard that some were executed. I doubt that. I think that they got prison terms, very definitely. Because...
M: So they went through the military tribunal?
F: Yeah. Military tribunal. And...but remember in World War II there were quite a few of...there were a lot of people sentenced, you know, to long prison sentences – military...[inaudible].
M: Uh-huh.
F: There were a number of hangings around, like they say, only one soldier was executed - Slovic – but that was for malfeasance. You know, desertion in action. But there were people hanged for other crimes, mainly rape, you know, killing.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And this was...these were carried out – no publicity on that. I might say the reason nobody ever heard of this, I don’t even know whether I could find any of this stuff if I went, you know, looking in the records, you know.
M: Um. But this really was a...this was buried? ...[inaudible].
F: You know, under the freedom this was...all of these things... There were, I found out later that during World T.R. Fehrenbach 31
War II, there were – they called them race riots – between troops and civilian. They were frequent where they were training troops. This wasn’t a riot, you know.
M: Yeah.
F: It could have been, but I mean a riot is where they both got in and beat up on each other.
M: Okay.
F: These...the information on this was always suppressed under wartime censorship.
M: Okay.
F: Remember, we had censor laws at that time.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And they would be suppressed. And if the news media did get ahold of something like this, they would probably not publish it, because it would be unpatriotic.
M: Yeah. Uh-huh.
F: I mean, it would be a command decision – at the paper.
A different attitude. It’s a very different attitude in those days than, say, the press would have now. You know I sometimes feel the media would publish something that would ruin the country just for the joy of publishing. It’s utterly different.
M: Yeah.
F: And so I left. Now I will say one thing. Out of this, two things happened. I’d like to say I was totally T.R. Fehrenbach 32
outraged, you know, and went...no, I was...obviously disapproved of this whole thing. But I didn’t become a rebel.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know, that way, because I am not a rebel by nature. F: There’s a lot of things I don’t like, and I take the attitude Lincoln took. That is, if I ever have a chance to do something about this; I’ll do something.
M: Yeah.
F: But in the meantime, I’m not going to...
M: Right.
F: You know, I’m not going to drive myself nuts with it.
M: Yeah.
F: That’s his attitude he had toward slavery, which I thought was very sensible.
M: Yeah.
F: You may remember that - I forget the exact words but that’s what he said. Well, I’ve had that same attitude. If I’m empowered, at some point, to do something against something I don’t like, I will do it, but I am not going to devote, you know, I mean my life to these causes.
M: To do that...[inaudible].
F: And that’s just my nature, it’s not...I don’t say it’s right or wrong. Well, anyway, the first time brought me up to the fact that we had a black problem in those days, T.R. Fehrenbach 33
because I was oblivious of it. You know, I’d never been around, seen it.
M: Um.
F: You never saw anything in literature hardly. The...or if you saw it in literature, you never saw it in the popular ...
M: Uh-huh.
F: What I’m trying to say, the literature of the day.
M: Yeah.
F: You know. Anything to indicate that everything’s fine on the old plantation. I believed it; you know that’s what I thought.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And I realized that, no, you know everything wasn’t good on the old plantation. There’s some real problems; there’s trouble here. I had a lasting feeling of, I’d say, of being ashamed at the way these soldiers were treated.
M: Uh-huh.
F: I still am. You know. That’s the only way I can say I’m ashamed of it. I’m not...
M: Has that grown over the years? ...[inaudible].
F: Well, no, because what happened was, a few years later – and I will give you a slight more experience than this – I’m just talking about observations in this other. I was in command of a unit when there was integration, during the T.R. Fehrenbach 34
Korean War. And whereas Truman signed the executive order in ’48, as late as ’52 or ’53 there were still units that you know were not...
M: Integrated.
F: ...fully, because they still had...they had all-black units, and they began to integrate – it took a few years. Well, I had an all-white unit that – I take it back because F: they started...[inaudible] they had about...
[inaudible]. I had a mixed medic – and when I say mixed I think he was part – like Tiger Woods, you know; I mean, he wasn’t white but I’m not sure what he was.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And there was another sergeant who was African-American, at least partially so, who was a special ...[inaudible] from headquarters. Well, anyway, we got ten percent, that’s the way...[inaudible]. In other words, the draft was like ten percent of our strength coming in and all African-Americans...[inaudible] soldiers.
M: There was a quota.
F: Yes, it was a quota. They put...[inaudible]. They simply didn’t want to assign more than that to units at that time.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know. Now later some Army units got up to thirty-five percent.T.R. Fehrenbach 35
M: Yeah.
F: But that was natural, like during the Korean War, that was just the way the draft worked and the numbers worked.
M: Okay. Okay.
F: And then it’s gone down again. You know. My experience, I think, helped me a very great deal because one of the things I was absolutely certain of that – and I put a young man – that one – had to get these people on the team.
F: And the first thing I did, I talked to my white NCOs. All of them were white except one Technician. And told them this is the way it was going to be. And we’re also in the middle of a war. And I did not want any opposition, you know, from racial – or, you know, feelings like that – and I would not tolerate any such thing. And if they had it, frankly, you know, something...if they went out of line on this it was going to be their ass – to put it bluntly.
M: So this was when you were a commander in Korea?
F: Yes. Yes. Okay.
M: When you were in charge.
F: Okay. And then I got...when I came in and I got my new black contingent, and I talked to them and I said, “You’re here, and I know some of you probably don’t want to be here, you know, in this particular thing...
M: Yeah. Yeah.
F: And I said, ”There are some people here in this unit T.R. Fehrenbach 36
that don’t want you to be here, but I’ll tell you this, they are not going to harass you in any particular way. I...you know, and if you get anything out you can...my door...you can report to me”.
M: ...[inaudible].
F: You know, through channels. I mean not just walk in my door at any time.
M: Uh-huh. Yeah.
F: And I said, “On the other hand,” I said, “You have to F: prove yourselves.”
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know, this isn’t a free ride. This isn’t ...[inaudible]. And I said, “All of you have got to prove yourselves,” and I said, ”As troops, as soldiers; and you’ll be treated as men.”
M: Uh-huh.
F: “Another thing, I don’t want any cabals”. I didn’t use cabals...[inaudible].
M: Uh-huh.
F: “I don’t want any groups – associate”...
M: Yeah.
F: “Like you’re not going to hang out together, you know, and grouse against the white world.” Some of them started to laugh. “I’m going to assign you around, and there are going to be two or three, and you’re going to be under T.R. Fehrenbach 37
pressure to perform. But if you perform, you’ve got an absolute even break. If you don’t perform,” I said, “probably my unit will do things to you and I can’t do anything about it.”
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know, and so I was right...in other words, I felt - I’ve always felt this, and I’m talking in military context. I’m not talking that the African-American – Americans need a level playing field.
M: Uh-huh.
F: But...but to me – that’s all I gave the men. If they could not perform – no, no nurse-maiding.
M: Yeah.
F: Now I know I differ from many liberals this way. They say – “Oh, no, because you’ve got to keep...”
M: Yeah.
F: In other words, I did not put up with anything.
M: Uh-huh.
F: ...that I wouldn’t put up with from a...
M: ...from a white person.
F: But the thing was, was not to pick...you know, what I’m talking about?
M: Uh-huh.
F: In other words, not to get on a black person for something that I would tolerate in a white person.T.R. Fehrenbach 38
M: Uh-huh.
F: And men can pick that up very, very quickly.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know, I mean it doesn’t take long.
M: Yeah.
F: They know when the field is level or not. And I did not have any trouble. I not only did not have trouble, I had several outstanding, and I’m not...[inaudible].
M: Yeah.
F: One outstanding man, NCO,...[inaudible], and I reported him and went all the way back, you know.
M: Yeah.
F: Like, it was kind of like they were looking for outstanding, you know, blacks.
M: Yeah.
F: And I don’t know what happened because later...but he was reported and had considerable rank, he had five stripes, technical sergeant, a very young man, and probably had a... if he stayed in the Army...
M: Good future.
F: A very good career. And I think that I wouldn’t have had this much sense – I don’t know what I would have done – I would have survived no matter what. That if I hadn’t seen this other thing and that’s...and one thing that I’ve learned, and it’s helped me greatly as a small unit T.R. Fehrenbach 39
commander. I think this might be my secret to my success, and that is to be fairly – in other words, to be...don’t be soft, but always treat your people as people. Never humiliate them. That, Services sometimes do this.
M: Yeah.
F: Punish them, but don’t humiliate them.
M: Uh-huh.
F: Make it miserable for them, you know what I mean, but don’t...and that does work, I think.
M: Uh-huh. So that out of that experience as an eighteen-year old...
F: Yes.
M: You’ve taken those learnings.
F: Yes.
M: And applied them all your life.
F: Yes. I guess you could say that.
M: Yeah. Because you’ve been dealing with the concept of war for a long time.
F: Yes, I have. I didn’t have that much in it – and actually I didn’t deal with it so much - I got out, and this came up later. I mean this is like...much of this here for a long time I didn’t even pay any attention to this. And then the Services kept calling me back, you know.
M: Uh-huh.
F: Oh, for fifteen years, to speak to troops...T.R. Fehrenbach 40
M: Uh-huh.
F: Not about what we, you know, speaking specifically ...[inaudible], but other things.
M: Yeah.
F: And this is flattering in a way, and it...
M: Yes.
F: It also gets...I just came back from the West Coast on this. I’ve talked to the Marines, to the Army Ground Troops ...
M: Uh-huh.
F: They have OPDs, called Officer Professional Development, and they get...they’re supposed...like conferring, you know, with me, you know...[inaudible].
M: Uh-huh.
F: And I will talk specifically there in terms of, well, of war and other things.
M: Uh-huh.
F: I wrote, without ever frankly understanding it at the time, apparently one of the most remarkable books on war. Never much appealed to civilians - tremendous appeal, cult appeal to military.
M: I’ll be darned.
F: Which is This Kind of War.
M: This Kind of War.
F: Still selling, still... T.R. Fehrenbach 41
M: Amazing.
F: Colin Powell wrote in the last edition; it’s been in print...
M: Uh-huh.
F: ...in the last 2000 edition, put a very, very nice comment, you know...[inaudible]. It’s instructed two generations of soldiers, and he talked about the awesome duty and the, you know...I won’t go on...[inaudible]. He did this himself.
M: Yeah, yeah. Uh-huh.
F: So...
M: So the military liked the book but the general public is kind of not sure.
F: Well, because it was probably written from the
F: professional viewpoint, and it takes the view...it’s not what I call a liberal book, but it takes the view that you’re going to have wars. It was also prophetic, because this was written before Vietnam.
M: Yes.
F: And I said, “These things are going to happen; you can’t do it with a draftee Army”, you know.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You’re going to have to have enough professionals...
M: A professional Army.
F: And, of course, there were thousands of men that went T.R. Fehrenbach 42
through Vietnam and got the... Said, “Why in the hell do we do all of this?”
M: Uh-huh.
F: In other words, the government violated every precept in my book.
M: In the book.
F: In my book. Now after all, when I wrote it, I was a pipsqueak lieutenant colonel, you know; there’s no reason why they should...[inaudible], but on the other hand, when the people came out like Colin Powell’s generation, up, up they...what I had written and what my experience resonated with them.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You know, they said, “This is the way it should be.”
M: Yeah. You’re talking about a professional Army,
M: assuming...
F: Yes, yes.
M: ...[inaudible].
F: Yes. In other words, my point is I believe in a citizen Army if you’re going to fight a jihad, great patriotic, fatherland war.
M: Uh-huh.
F: You’ve got to have...[inaudible].
M: Uh-huh.
F: If you’re going to fight Koreas, Vietnams, and other T.R. Fehrenbach 43
things, Gulf Wars, you don’t want a citizen Army. Citizens don’t understand those kinds of wars; they don’t want to be there.
M: Uh-huh.
F: I’m very serious about that. In other words, the citizen Army should be drafted for the great national effort that everybody understands.
M: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
F: Otherwise you need professionals who...
M: Oh, I see – you’re making a distinction in the kinds of wars.
F: Well,[inaudible] the service, was Tommy Thompson, back in the old Marines, said, “The war, yes, the war is our profession and the Service is home.”
M: Um. Uh-huh.
F: Okay. That’s what you need to...
M: Uh-huh.
F: Historically.
M: Uh-huh.
F: ...[inaudible] you can’t draft kids to go and fight, in my opinion, fight in Vietnam without overwhelming...
M: Uh-huh.
F: And it didn’t work very well.
M: Uh-huh.
F: It wasn’t that the troops didn’t perform, you know... T.R. Fehrenbach 44
well, I mean they performed, I think, amazingly well. But it just tore everything up. You know, it was just...that’s what I’m trying to say. Well, I brought this kind of thing out, no knowing that, you know, we were going into that.
M: Yeah.
F: And also of other things, all my experience, which I’m not in the book in one way...
M: Yeah.
F: ...not mentioned.
M: Yeah.
F: I’ve never done that. But all of my...I drew from my experience on a whole bunch of, you know, combat actions.
M: Uh-huh.
F: Which professionals can see, you know, right away.
M: Yeah.
F: And if you think that most civilians, see, that are in war, what they see is chaos. And it is chaos.
M: Uh-huh.
F: But war, essentially, is the application of force for a political object.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And it’s been said again and again. Americans don’t like that.
M: That’s right.
F: It’s just too cold blooded. You know what I’m saying?T.R. Fehrenbach 45
M: They don’t want to call it like it is.
F: No. And that’s why I said I think I call a lot of things as they are, as I’ve seen them.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And that’s why, of all my writings afterward, I never wrote anything military – it’s all been historical.
M: Uh-huh.
F: I don’t know if whether you’re familiar with my...
M: Uh-huh.
F: ...books. But with the fiftieth anniversary of the Korean War I’ve had to go back and kind of wallow in this.
M: Okay.
F: Because last year the government invited – when I say government – invited my wife and I to Seoul for the very impressive ceremonies that the South Koreans put on.
M: Uh-huh.
F: Not us...and visited troops, and I kept on to Fort Lewis where the 2nd Division – which was my Division – also F: big in Korea, suffered the most casualties of any Division in Korea. They put on an event and I got to be lead speaker of the...I’m going to Hawaii at the Air Force’s invitation...
M: Uh-huh.
F: ...if the Air Force wants to fly me first class and put me up in the Hawaiian Village...T.R. Fehrenbach 46
M: That’s just fine.
F: Well, yes, it’s a lot better than the first trip around. And this has happened...coming around. And I’m just explaining, I don’t set myself up as a military expert. But what has happened at this day and age, and the reason they will go into it, is now we have military forces that have basically never really been shot at. I mean, in the Gulf War you had superbly trained troops but they had, what?, a few hours and it was a firefight.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And some of them were, you know, in actual combat, but while it wasn’t...
M: Basically it was an air battle.
F: It was an air battle, but even the ground battle was decisive, was over so quickly. I mean, our people were so superior.
M: Uh-huh.
F: Seriously. I mean...[inaudible].
M: Which is what it should be.
F: Yes, weapons and everything else. It was not a protracted, like they thought... So the thing is that I’m talking to mostly officers and some very top NCOs, to people who have never been in a protracted battle, you know, been shot at; and there are things that they need to think about.
M: Uh-huh.T.R. Fehrenbach 47
F: Now as I tell them, no, you...it doesn’t matter how many books you read, it’s...you can’t...you don’t know how a person is going to...
M: React?
F: React until they actually get, you know, into this situation and get shot at.
M: Yeah.
F: On the other hand, as I tell them, the more training you have, and particularly in your man-power down the line, the more your people know it by rote, the better off you are. Because it’s like the British Navy in its heyday – I mean, the Napoleonic Wars – is that the men were trained to run the guns out and fire, you know, run the guns out and fire.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And they did that whether the ship came apart or whatever.
M: Yeah.
F: And it was effective. You know, the French built battleships, you know they had good commanders, but the
F: French never trained their people – just stand there, you know, like...you know, that stolid, you know, type of thing.
M: Yeah, uh-huh.
F: And you joke, and I said...no, a soldier, I said, no, a T.R. Fehrenbach 48
soldier cannot think for himself. I mean on the...
M: Yeah. Must be ready.
F: ...[inaudible] lower rank what he must do is follow orders, he must fire; you hope the officer will think.
M: Yeah.
F: You know, and not by rote. But you can’t...and now, see, that again does not meet the world war criteria where everybody in the squad thinks, you know. No, I can tell you clearly it doesn’t happen.
M: Yeah, yeah.
F: I’ve been...when your squad comes under fire, they all – those that are thinking you’d better – they’re in trouble. M: Yeah.
F: You know, what they’ve got to do is be trained to react almost instinctively.
M: Yeah.
F: You know, whatever their particular military job is.
M: Well, how soon after this incident, this mutiny, did you then go...did you leave that area?
F: I left that area within days.
M: Within days.
F: Yes.
M: Okay. And then you went through the Pacific Theater?
F: Later, yes. I went, actually, to the Washington, D.C., area. T.R. Fehrenbach 49
M: Okay.
F: It’s...and then I joined a unit that they were...this is a complicated thing. It...I had an opportunity to get into a unit that was going to the Pacific, was being recruited by a Lt. Colonel. About thirty – I guess thirty, thirty-two - and it was a new type unit. And it’s...what we were eventually going to do was we were going to have a stellar role in the invasion of Japan on 1 November ’45.
M: Okay.
F: And very fortunately for, I think, for me and some others – the nuclear bomb, of course, forestalled that, because later... Today I would have better sense than to go into that kind of unit.
M: Yeah.
F: Seventy-two men - separate platoon. I became a platoon sergeant. Two officers – you know, now I think why the hell is it a separate platoon?
M: Yeah.
F: Why did they have two officers instead of one?
M: Yeah.
F: You know what I mean?
M: Uh-huh. Yeah.
F: This was, in other words, to operate independently.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And we were trained in things like demolitions and, you T.R. Fehrenbach 50
know, what-not.
M: Uh-huh.
F: And let’s put it this way, it would have been, I think, a mite hazardous...
M: Uh-huh.
F: ...to us - to have landed in Japan.
M: Yeah.
F: Well, all war is hazardous, but I mean...
M: Yeah, yeah.
F: This was particularly. However, out of this service, because it was a very rough outfit, I might say, very...it was all white, but you had some...I had jailbirds. Yes, I had people, really, really some rough people. And I had some awful good people. Well, they’re all basically good, but I had trouble. But out of this experience I was offered a commission. I had the best-run platoon, you know, in the battalion.
M: Um.
F: I mean, as sergeant they said.
M: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
F: And I...see, I can’t blame all of this on my African-American experience.
M: Uh-huh.
F: But I think that had a enormous maturing...
M: ...effect on you, because you were still young.T.R. Fehrenbach 51
F: ...effect on me, yes, to...in other words, and I can’t pretend I saw all...
M: Yeah.
F: But I do remember, you know, coming away with some very vivid things about troop leadership, which you don’t usually get that young, because I saw it violated all over.
M: You could see the things the guy was doing wrong.
F: Yes. Even then I could see, because I saw the impact down at the lowest level.
M: Yeah.
F: That’s what I’m trying to say.
M: Yeah.
F: And, fortunately, and I personally – remember I’m a semi-educated person - I had completed three years of college by eighteen.
M: Uh-huh. Yeah.
F: You know, because acceleration...not quite – I had not quite completed my junior year. So being semi-educated I am, hopefully – the tests say I’m reasonably intelligent.
M: Uh-huh.
F: So I could do something...
M: ...[inaudible].
F: ...with this. In other words, there were other men who probably saw the same thing but were never in a position to F: write about it.T.R. Fehrenbach 52
M: Well, I guess my question is, how did you get three years of college and enter the service at eighteen?
F: Well, I started college at age sixteen.
M: Okay.
F: Because I skipped, in effect, two grades. I skipped the second grade, the...they don’t do that anymore.
M: I was going to say, that’s another period piece.
F: That’s another period piece, because – well, see, when I started school I could read. The first grade was an enormous bore to me, because, you know, the kids, the students – the teacher reading Dr. Dolittle or something, you know, for afternoon. I had read all this. I learned... to me reading is no problem. My family...my mother taught me to read, you know.
M: Yeah.
F: I mean, not that I was a genius, but this...
M: Yeah.
F: This is not hard. You can teach kids at that age, if you try. So I was kind of a nuisance, and so in the second grade they started this pap again and the teacher just said well, you know, I don’t think he should be here. And they moved me to third. Now, I never had any...intellectually it was the right move, physiologically and sociologically it was not, because – and I never realized this, I might say until much later, I never thought about it.T.R. Fehrenbach 53
M: Yeah.
F: I was always younger than everybody, excuse me, in my class.
M: Yeah.
F: Including the girls. Well, when I’m sixteen all the girls are eighteen.
M: That makes a difference.
F: And I’m not, yeah, I’m not being able to cope with it. But I’m large – see, nobody thinks about me being sixteen.
M: Yeah.
F: You understand.
M: Yeah.
F: I was big, large. I was six feet tall, weighed a hundred and ninety pounds, athletic.
M: Yeah.
F: Athlete and all.
M: Uh-huh.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2.