THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
INTERVIEW WITH: Reverend Marvin Griffin
DATE: November 10, 1993
PLACE :
INTERVIEWER:
Ebenezer Baptist Church, Austin, TX
Cheri Wolfe
TAPE I, Side 1
W: This is Cheri Wolfe and it is November 10, 1993; I'm in
the office of Reverend Marvin Griffin, at the Ebenezer
Baptist Church in Austin. We're going to be talking about
the civil rights movement in Texas and his role and the role
of the church in that. Uh, where were you born?
G: Wichita, Kansas.
W: When?
G: February 20, 1923 .
W: And what did your parents do?
G: Well, my mother was a domestic worker; my father, at the
time of my birth, was working at a packing house, then later
he just did odd jobs - picking cotton and working as a
custodian, things of that nature .
W: And what was life like for a black man growing up in
Wichita, Kansas?
G: I don't remember very much about Wichita, Kansas. I
remember coming to ... well, I don't remember coming to
Oklahoma. I remember myself in Oklahoma, possibly as early
as age 4. And I started school at age 5 in a little town
called Fort Gibson , Oklahoma, which is one of the oldest
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G: towns in Oklahoma. Nine miles from Muskogee.
W: And was this, uh ... I'm familiar with race relations with
the South, but not the West as much. What was it like being
black in Oklahoma at that time?
G: There was a school located across the street from where
we lived, and I had to walk to a school that was some
distance away because of my race. I stayed in Oklahoma
until I was 7; so it was at the age of 7 that I came to
Dallas. So, my best recollections are from that point on .
W: Mm hmm. Uh, when did you get the call?
G: I started feeling some urge to preach when I was 7. You
know, I would preach under the street light in front of our
house, and I felt a strong urge towards religious things. I
did not announce my call to the ministry until I was 17, the
year after. But it was after I finished high school; it was
the same year I finished high school. I finished high
school in May and I preached my first sermon in August of
1940.
W: Mm hmm. In the Baptist Church?
G: Yes, in the Baptist Church. It was the Greater
Bethlehem Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas.
W: What was it about? What was your topic?
G: Make Christ Your King Today, taken from a passage in the
Book of Proverbs.
W: Uh, were you aware, at age 17 in the '40s in Dallas
about .. . uh, r mean you grew up with ... r mean, knowing that
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 3
things obviously weren't equal in terms of civil Rights ...
G: Oh, yes. I was very much aware. In fact, I attended a
high school in Dallas that was built for 500 students, and
we had 2500 attending that school. So it was necessary to
have two shifts. I went to school the first two years, high
school, from 12:40 until 5:00 p.m. Then the last two years
from 8:00 to 12:20 . Uh, my last year and a half, they had
built a new high school, Lincoln High School, so then we had
a full day. But then there were those, the white community
in Dallas, particularly in South Dallas, who felt that
Lincoln High School was too good for Negroes. So, they
threatened to burn it. so, I finished Lincoln in 1940, and
the following school year, parents were marching to school
with their kids carrying guns for safety.
W: Oh, my God!
G: And it was in that year that Pearl Harbor occurred and
then when that occurred, people began to direct their
attention and that ended that racial flare-up which had
occurred in South Dallas.
W: And what brought that on?
G: Well, just racial tensions. It was a beautiful school,
and they said that it was just too good for black people;
that school was too good for black people, and they
threatened to destroy it. So, racism was just as strong.
W: Were there ... I mean, it must have been in all aspects of
life, not just .. .
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 4
G: Well, I think one of the things that happened was that
Lincoln High School ... there were white high schools, and the
G: students would pass each other going to school and they
would have fights, too, and all that. So you had tension
that developed through that.
W: What about in the work place, or, did you hear about
things around the town?
G: Oh, I experienced it, you know. Work was very difficult
in those days. See, I came up during the Depression. It
was very, very difficult. I remember one summer when I was
in college, uh, I worked for a nursery cutting grass and the
like, and we would be hired; there were two or three of us,
black fellas, hired for 25 cents an hour. Then they would
hire a white man who was perfectly untrained in what we were
doing--we'd have to train him, but because he was white, he
was hired at 28 cents an hour while we'd been working at the
same time and we were only receiving 25 cents an hour.
W: And what recourse did the black community feel that it
had? Or what did it ..•
G: Well, back in those days, you didn't have much recourse
because in the community where I grew up out there, in what
we called East Dallas, the police were feared. For example,
if a young fellow would be out in the park with his girl
late at night, a policeman may come and run him away and
take the girl and possible rape her. Nothing ever happened.
And if you were arrested, or if you were called by the
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police and you answered saying, "Yeah, yeah, and no," well,
you probably would be hit against with the club, you know,
beat up or something like that. "Don't you know to say yes
G: sir?" or something like that. That was common in
places; we all knew that.
5
W: And did you--did your parents counsel you and how to get
along in the world?
G: Oh, yes. How to get along.
W: What did they tell you?
G: In other words, we were to be the best that we could, to
excel and to try to be better than they were, so we wouldn't
have to go through the pains that they endured. That was
usually the counsel that you--they'd say, "You are to stay
in school, stay out of trouble, and try to excel . "
W: Mm hmm. You must have been--I mean, you had to have
been incredibly angry. I mean, or, frustrated or both of
that. How did you handle it?
G: Yes, that was something that I think many of us have
experienced - frustration and anger - and I would read the
black newspapers. There were a number of black weekly's and
most of the time when you read them, you'd be--come away
enraged, maybe all the while, but you're even in more of a
state of rage, you know, because you'd read about
mistreating of the blacks here and there and allover the
country. Uh, there was the NAACP, I kept up with that; and
there were voting organizations - there was one called the
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 6
Progressive Voter's League. Even as a youngster I took an
interest in that. I loved to read, and I kept up with those
persons who were active and doing unusual things and I sort
of identified with them and looked upon them as ideal
G: models.
W: Were there other organizations like that?
G: Well, as I recall, there was the NAACP, the local
chapter in Dallas; there was the Progressive Voter's League;
and by the way, the Progressive Voter's League was led by
Reverend Maynard H. Jackson, who was the father of the
present mayor of ...
W: Atlanta.
G: Atlanta. Mm hmm.
W: And were you involved with those as a youth?
W: Well, I was just a youngster, you know, reading about
it. I was in high school and I would read, I would sell the
black papers and I'd read all this in the papers that I was
selling.
W: MID hmm. Were your parents involved?
W: No. They were just ordinary people. But in a sense,
everybody was involved because the Black Chamber of Commerce
- speakers, and the like - would come into the churches. I
can recall that in a church after the service at night - we
had the largest crowds at night in those days. The speaker
would come from across town and talk to us about voting.
And I can't remember what the occasion was, we had a
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 7
miniature voting machine. They showed us how when you get
behind the curtain - I was too young to vote at the time -
but I remember. They were counseled about voting and we
were trying to get, at that time, ten thousand blacks ready
to pay poll tax in those days, registered to vote.
W: And that was a big issue, 'til the '60s.
G: Oh, yes; oh, yes. And finally, we were able to get
enough people registered to vote so that in one particular
election the black people really made the difference. And
that was when they elected George sprague as mayor of
Dallas. It's been a long time ago.
W: And was there ... how did the white community react?
G: Well, they took notice of it and there was no particular
thing done. I can remember ... there was quite a great deal
of concern in part of the white community when Maynard
Jackson, I think, I believe he ran for the school board, and
they were quite upset, you know, that a black person would
have the courage to run for the school board. Uh, he did
not come close to getting elected and, of course, he was
very light-skinned and could have passed for being white.
W: And when was this that he ran for the school board?
G: I believe that was back in the, I believe back in the
'30s.
W: So, even then, I guess even before, there was, I mean,
always an attempt to be moving towards ...
G: Oh, yes, yes. I think it was the first time it had
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN
happened since reconstruction, maybe, when he ran .
W: Uh, did you have much contact with the white community
in those days?
G: No. My mother worked, did day work in--you know,
sometimes I would go out to pick her up, and you meet them
that way . Sometimes, I'd do some work by cutting yards or
G: something like that, be out there in the yard. Uh, of
course, there were speakers that would come to your church
who were in race relations representing the white
convention. That was about the extent of it.
W: The white Baptist ...
G: Yes.
W: convention?
G: Mm hmm.
W: Did you trust them?
G: Yes, those people we usually trusted. Mm hmm.
W: So we really are talking a segregated society in just
about every •..
8
G: Oh, yes, oh, yes. We were segregated. Definitely that.
W: Was, uh, you know, when you first started your ministry,
were these issues wrapped up in that, in what you were
trying to do as a man of God? Sort of consciously?
G: Well, I've always had a strong concern for social
justice.
W: Uh, huh? Uh, were you preaching sermons with regards to
civil rights issues then?
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN
G: Well, I always had something in it about social justice
as a rule, yes.
W: How did your congregation ... who did you characterize
then?
G: Well, I would say it's easy to do that when you're
speaking, for the most part, to an all-black congregation.
And that's what I was doing.
9
W: Uh huh. Were these middle-class parishoners, or lower­class?
G: No, these were low-income people .
W: Who had a lot to lose by bucking the system or
pushing ...
G: Yes, uh hmm.
W: I mean, their jobs, you know, a lot to fear.
G: Right, right.
W: How did they respond?
G: Well, I was not preaching any sermons, you know, about
going out overthrowing the white community or anything like
that. It was just sermons generally about justice. They
were not sermons condemning white folk or anything like
that.
W: They were just about what's ...
G: There were more sermons with just more or less dealing
with moral and spiritual values in a general way.
W: Did, uh, if you don't mind me asking ... did these issues
come up in a ... with regard to you as a counselor for your
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 10
parishoners? I mean, in personal, you know, meetings that
they might have come to you with problems, or ...
G: Well, I think that as I recall, there was a general
understanding of black people; my parents and the like, you
know, that we were treated the way we were treated and that
it was not right, but, you know, you continue to struggle to
overcome these things. Ub, we knew that we didn't have
schools that were given the same allocations that white
G: schools received. Ub, we knew that our teachers did
not receive as much money as the white teachers. We knew
all these injustices existed, we just couldn't do anything
about it.
W: When did that start to change?
G: Ub, in the '60s there was a suit that was filed, I
believe it was in the ...
W: Herman Swett?
G: No, it was not in the '60s. I believe the suit may have
been filed in the ' 40S, for the equalization of teacher's
salaries . And, uh, my former ... when my college president,
uh, Dr. Joseph J. Rooves was one of the leaders in that
fight.
W: And where did you go to college?
G: Bishop College, which at that time was located in
Marshall, Texas.
W: Yeah, yeah. And was that a successful suit?
G: Yes. In fact, it was apparent that these injustices
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 11
existed, so they sought to compromise early and offered to
give raises in, I think, three stages or something like
that, because it would have been so much to have to do that
in one step.
W: Mm hmm. So, we skipped a whole section of your training
and upbringing. Tell me about going to Bishop.
G: Uh, most of the youngsters in my community did not go
away to college. I may have been the first, during that
period, to go to college. People could not see how I could
G: afford to go to college coming from a poor family. My
mother was making $8 a week, and she was the only one
employed. My father, you know, worked here and there, but
not on a regular basis. So all the steady income we had was
that $8 a week. Uh, $32 per month, and that was the amount
that was due to college, uh, $32 a month. So, I think I had
a scholarship from, uh, $8 or something of that nature and
uh, I was to pay, I think I had a scholarship that I was
suppose to pay $22 a month, or something like that.
Something like $10 a month, a work scholarship, which was
considered good. And, uh, we could not afford to pay that,
but mother said if I went to college, if I got there, that
God would work a way for me to stay there. And that's what
we went on ... faith. And, uh, after the first month, I
didn't have the money for the next month, and I didn't have
the money for the next month, or next month. And finally
the president sent for me. Said, "How do you expect to stay
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 12
here?" And I told him what my mother made, so he reduced
to, I think, $15 that I had to pay, and I was able to stay
through the year, and I came out in the summer and worked
and paid what I owed. And the next year, I stayed off the
campus and I paid $5 per month for a room; a room for $5 a
month, and then I budgeted $5 for food a month and had to
pay the college $1.01 a month. So if I got $11.01 I could
make it. Well, it was hard to even get that. The times
were very difficult. It's hard for some people to imagine,
you know. So, I stayed through that; times got better after
G: Pearl Harbor, 1942. I got a job working downtown at
some ... and then I got another job on the campus and I could
put those together and I was able to finish four year's work
in three. Uh, because the war sort of made things a little
more prosperous.
W: MID hmm. And you were at Bishop College from ...
G: 1940 to 1943; December, 1943.
W: MID hmm. And, what was the intellectual atmosphere there
like? Was there questioning, or ...
G: Oh, yes. A great deal of questioning, and we had
instructors who were interested in us and they encouraged us
and inspired us, so that I wanted to go to a seminary, which
I did after finishing, and I was on the honor roll and
graduated with high honors and a group of us tried to run
tha campus.
W: And I guess when I say questioning - intellectual
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 13
questioning - but also questioning about the status quo.
G: Well, I was president of the YMCA in college and I went
away to SMU to a YMCA conference and I met with white
students--that was the first time I can remember meeting
with whites as equals. And then another time, we went out
at Lankostilvitz. There was some log cabins out there and
we had sessions with white students from other colleges who
were interested in correcting the injustices that existed.
So that was a great inspiration for me and I'll never forget
it.
W: MID hmm. And what kinds of activities was the YMCA
W: involved with?
W: Well, mostly discussions, camp meeting, you'd meet out
somewhere and engage in discussions and listen to a speaker.
And on the campus at Bishop, you had, we sponsored a dance
each year, and things of that nature.
W: MID hmm. And then you went to a seminary at SMU?
G: No, I went to seminary in Ohio.
W: Oh.
G: I went to Oblerlin Graduate School of Theology. Uh, it
was right, no, no, it was here.
W: MID hmm.
G: After getting my Bachelor of Arts degree from Bishop, I
went to Oblerlin, where I received what was then called a
BD, a Bachelor of Divinity. That degree has essentially
changed to a Master of Divinity.
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 14
W: And did that keep you out of the draft?
G: Yes. I went to Oberlin because, uh, you see, I started
my ... announced my call to the ministries, as you'll notice
there, in 1940. Pearl Harbor occurred in '41 while I was
already in college in '40, September, so I'd been in college
for a year. But Oberlin had an accelerated program in which
you could complete the degree, BD, uh, in which is normally
three years--you could do it in two. And it was done for
the war. Uh, to produce more chaplains. And so, I engaged
in that program. But just before the last semester, the war
ended .
W: Mm hmm. And you came back to Texas?
G: Uh, after I finished Oberlin, I moved to Cleveland. At
that time I was married, I had married the year I finished
college, secretly, and my wife went back to college and I
went on to seminary. Uh, she had finished, and she joined
me in seminary; When I finished seminary in 1947, uh, we
moved to Cleveland; she was expecting her first child -
Marva, who was born in Cleveland. We stayed in Cleveland
from February 1947 until, I think it was October 1948 . By
that time, we were expecting another child. In 1948, in
October, we moved to Dallas. I came back home.
W: Was there, uh, was it different in Cleveland in terms of
race relations?
G: Yes, yes. In fact, it was altogher different. Uh, from
our experience in the South, when I went to Oberlin, oh,
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 15
Oberlin, as you know, never had the kind of caste system
that ... that many other countries ... never had slavery, in
Northwest territory. So, it was just a more liberal
atmosphere; there was no segregation on buses,and the like .
I had to deal with it, because when I first boarded buses, I
had told the girls to sit in the back because I had done
that so much in Dallas. And it took some time for me to
really get in the habit of sitting anywhere I wanted to sit.
So, you fraternalize, you're in classes together and it was
one of the first schools in America to admit blacks and
women. So, it's a very liberal atmosphere . And Cleveland
also, I thought, was a very good atmosphere in those days,
against what I had experienced in the South. I did have one
G: incident when 1 ... 1 was a representative for the inter­seminary
movement, and we went to ... I believe it was
Springfield ... to a conference. And we were with some white
girls and went into a restaurant just to talk after the
meeting and have pop and just continue the conversation
about the conference. And we went in there for that
purpose, but in this little town, in Springfield, at that
time, the restaurant owner told us that--there were two
blacks and two white girls--he wouldn't serve us. so, all
was not well throughout Ohio, you know. You still had
incidents, you know, and, but in Oberlin, itself, it was a
much better, you know, radical change from what I had been
accustomed to in Dallas.
CIVRTSjGRIFFIN
W: So, it must have been quite a lot to give up to come
back to Texas.
16
G: Well, yes, at first I wanted to stay and then I decided
the best place for me was back in the South, you know . I
had a feeling that when the South changed, it would really
be better than the other sections of the country. And, uh,
I remember reading a series of articles written in the
pittsburgh Courier about what's right about the South, and
things of that nature. And that sort of reinforced that
belief, and I heard a speech by the Dean of . ..•.. ,and he
encouraged us to return home to the South and all that. And
after a while without a job, you know, I thought that that
was probably the best thing for me to do was to come back to
the South.
W: So there was a real sense in the late '40s that things
were gonna change and that you were going to be a part of
it?
G: Well, that's the way I felt, yes.
W: Did the returning war veterans have alot to do with
that?
G: No.
W: So, you don't see them as--some people have theorized
that. In your experience, though, the veterans coming back,
and you know, demanding ...
G: No, I don't recall that having taken place. I don't
recall veterans as such, you know. I know that there may
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 17
have been some isolated incidents that occurred. But, from
my association, when I was in Dallas, I was one of the
youngest in the NAACP and there were some very, very
skillful leaders, and courageous and brilliant men and I,
you know, was exposed to some of that. And I was in the
caucuses that were held when we were plotting, you know,
what we would do--strategy for different things.
W: Yeah, I'd like for you to talk about that in detail, if
you don't mind.
G: so, uh, one of the men that I admired most, and I think
one of the movers and shakers in the black community, was
Amacio smith in Dallas, Texas. NOw, Amacio Smith held a
federal job. He was, I think, the secretary of federal
housing, FHA. And he could not participate, you know,
openly in politics . But behind the scenes, he was master­G:
minding most of the things that occurred. NOw, we had
a mass meeting scheduled for the next day where we were
going to protest before the city council. And we'd probably
have a plan strategy meeting with Amacio there and all that.
NOw, when the actual meeting took place the next day, Amacio
would be at work. Uh, but, I treasure the experience and
insights I gained by that association. So, I was on the
board of directors of the NAACP, you know, during that time.
I was active in it, and there was always something going on,
you know, some case. And during that early period, when I
returned to Dallas, the Swett case was being promoted, so to
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 18
speak. They were raising money to take care of Swett, to
try to, not only to get in the University of Texas Law
School, but to take care of him because he was, I think he
had been a postal carrier . So this was sort of a pool that
would support him, you know, through that trial .
W: So, you were then ministering at ...
G: I came back to Texas to work for the Home Mission Board
of the Southern Baptist Convention . It was a city mission
program which involved a cooperative endeavor of black and
white Baptists. with my salary being paid by the Home
Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention. And the
local budget was supported, in part, by the White Baptist
Association in Dallas and the black churches.
W: And this was ' 50 .. •
G: Uh, ' 48 .
W: '48.
G: I stayed there from 1948 to 1951.
W: Mm hmm. Was this a normal, or very accepted thing,
you to be working for the Home Mission Board and be very
politically active in the NAACP?
for
G: Well, the Home Mission Board didn't know what I was
doing. You know, there was nobody monitoring me each day.
If I went to a meeting Wednesday night, it's just like going
to--going fishing, you know, there's nobody monitoring that;
as long as I did my work.
W: O.K.
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 19
G: And, these things were not in the paper, the ones that
I'm telling you, you know, you wouldn't read that anywhere,
where my name was in the paper. I was active both in the
NAACP and in the Progressive Voter's League. In fact, I was
the youngest--one of the youngest on the Board of Directors,
and in the progressive Voter's League I was very active. So
much so that in the three years I was there, when I left, I
was secretary of it. So that was how active I was and how I
arrived at that point in such a short time. But, there
was ... I don't know whether--see, there was no one to really
supervise me, as such, but maybe the mission worker - white
- of the association, and when he came to check the job
assignment that I had ...
END OF TAPE I, Side 1
TAPE I, Side 2
W: You were saying you conducted Vacation Bible Schools?
G: Yes, I conducted Vacation Bible Schools; I had classes
G: for ministers and lay workers; I had afternoon classes
for children and youth. I had one Wednesday night class for
youth, but daily classes for children there at the mission
center. I distributed food and clothing to the needy.
W: Would they have cared if they had known, your
supervisors, do you think?
G: I don't think that that was--in those days, segregation
was so, so prevailing that that was not something that they
did. For example, if my mother worked out across town, if
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 20
she was active in the NAACP, nobody across town is gonna
know of it. They won't know that, you know, but that wasn't
something that would have been an issue .
W: Are there, uh, archives or records of the meetings and
the strategies for the NAACP and the Progressive voter's
League from those days?
G: I doubt it.
W: Uh, but it's an incredibly important movement, that I
think needs to be documented, about what ... if you don't
mind, sort of elaborating on the kinds of things you chose
to do and why and what you thought you could accomplish;
what was beyond your goal; how did you go about trying to
accomplish those things?
G: I'm not sure I understand your question.
W: I guess I'm just trying to understand ... I mean, in this,
within the Board of Directors, where I assume you were
coming up with strategies and goals ...
G: Oh, well, many things would be discussed and I ... not
G: just social justice issues, but operational issues.
For example, I served as acting director of the Dallas
branch. Uh, the director, who was the richest woman black
woman - in Dallas, you know, suddenly resigned and I ran the
office, you know, as acting director. Uh, and there were
alot of things connected with that. We were trying to raise
enough money to pay the staff, you know, and that took alot
of time. Then if there were any issues of injustice that
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 21
were presented to the NAACP during the time, we dealt with
those. Most of the time we had, in those days, we had
monthly meetings in the churches, somewhere, you know . And
during that time , the thing that was most, was uttermost in
our promotion was the Swett case.
W: Mm hmm. Was the notion of priming swett to bring this
suit wasn't . . . come from your office ...
G: Beg your pardon?
W: The notion of getting ...
G: Well, all of that, those cases were promoted and ... see,
in those days, uh, there was a regional office, there was a
regional attorney and the like, uh, I can't at this time
think of the ... U. Sampson Tate, for example, was the
attorney. Uh, and he lived in Dallas, I believe . Well, he
spent most of his time in Dallas, and whatever cases may
have come up, you know, he would be there. We'd be working
on something all the time, But as I recall during that
particular period, or that three year period, there was
great deal of attention being given to the teacher, the
G: equalization struggle, and Swett; and the rest had to
do with internal, you know, problems that we'd be
addressing.
W: Did the local people come to you, or see you as one of
their only recourse?
G: Well, I was not ... I was a youngster, I was off on the so
to speak, at the edge, you know. The leaders .•. you see, I
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 22
was not a pastor of one of the large churches or anything
like that. I was not the leader, I was just one of the
little ones in there - probably the least, at that time,
because I was the youngest and I had just come out of the
seminary and I was a good friend of the leaders. The
powerful men were the preachers of the large churches. And
at that time, Reverend B.R. Riley was pastor of Salem
Baptist Church and president of the NAACP local branch. And
so, as a youngster, you know, I admired him, and he accepted
me. As I look back on it, I learned a great deal, but I was
not one of the powerful decision-makers, you know. I
participated in the decisions, but they were the power­brokers
as such, you know.
W: How did you raise money? What kind of funding sources
could you look to?
G: Well, they had freedom bonds, they called them, you
know; and then they'd have meetings in which they would
rally the people to give and to ... there were membership
drives ...
W: What was your relationship with the white community. I
W: mean, were most whites aware of the kind of work you
were doing?
G: Well, only those who were considered liberal would take
an interest, you know. I think I met, during that time,
some white friends who had meetings in their homes to which
we were invited, and that was a great step, back in those
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 23
days. In fact, I believe it was during this time that Vice­President
Wallace ran on the third party, you know, if you
ever heard of him. He was vice-president on the ticket with
Franklin Roosevelt, I believe, and when he was not selected
the last time. He finally started a third party and there
were some very liberal people that would then follow him.
W: So the NAACP wasn't perceived as a threat, you know, by
whites. I mean, you weren't ...
G: Well, I think it was considered a threat. But when
you're, oh possibly l/loth of the popUlation, you know, it
was not anything that people raised too much fuss over until
you get to the point where you're beginning to really affect
them in some definite way. So, I think, when NAACP was
considered a threat, was a few years later when John Ben
Shepard tried to put the Attorney General of the State of
Texas ... actually filed suit against NAACP to try to put it
out of business in the state. And I remember that quite
well. At that time I had moved on to Waco, and I was
pastoring in Waco a few years later.
W: And I do want to ask you about that, but before we ... is
there someone that I could speak with about those days in
W: the ...
G: I don't know anybody.
W: Are they all pretty much gone?
G: You see, I was always active, and I don't know anything
that ... she had men like Thurgood Marshall, see ... I used to
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 24
hear Thurgood Marshall speak in the churches back in those
days . I remember when he went to some, went to the orient
to check on how our soldiers were being treated. So, see,
that goes back, and we're talking about almost 50 years, you
see? And people who were very active and who really were
intricately involved in it are dead, you know.
W: I think I'm a little too late ...
G: I was young, you know. I remember, but I was not among
the powers that be . There was a lady by the name of Juanita
Craft; she was very active. She sat on the city Council
later in Dallas; they've got a community club house out in
East Dallas named after her. You see, she was very active.
Most of those people, you know, that would have been active,
say, usually you think a person being 30 years old or
something like that • .• they'd be 80 years old.
W: How about the Progressive Voter's League, how was that
organization different, and what was your role in it?
G: Well, it had started years before. In other words, it
was in the '30s that it was organized, I believe, by Maynard
Jackson and when I came into the picture, it was in the late
'40s, you know, and '50s. I left in '51, so I was active in
' 49, '50, '51. And it was ... would interview candidates and
encourage black people to vote for the candidates that
seemed most acceptable to us.
W: Mm hmm. And were most candidates open to that process?
G: Well, when they're running they are. We might usually
CIVRTSjGRIFFIN 25
get a candidate who was such a racist that he thinks he
gonna win without the black vote, but that was not usually
the case. They all came out to try to get even. Maybe the
racist ones they still would try to hide it, you know, to
get their votes, you know. so, particularly in a race
where . . . and our vote was usually almost a solid vote .
W: And what was your role with the Progresssive voter's
League, you said you were secretary?
G: I was secretary, so I sat on the committees where we
interviewed the candidates; we made a selection and
recommended to ... sent out letters, you know, recommending
those who had a slate to the black community. In those
days, you could get a list of your poll tax people, because
it was a segregated community and most black folk lived in
the same precincts . And you'd get those and you were
identified by race on it, so you could get a copy of that
and send those out .
W: Was the poll tax a big issue for you?
G: Yes, because, you see, that device was used to keep the
black folk from voting, because many people, you know,
wouldn't pay the poll tax, and so, it was a deterrent. And
I can remember some years later, when it was removed, that
the tax assessor who controlled that particular function was
G: quite disturbed because he thought black folk was gonna
vote in such numbers that they were going to completely
upset things, you know.
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN
W: Did you have any specific strategies in those years,
like '49 to '51, to get rid of the poll tax?
26
G: Well, there was always that, that was ... I think
something that was similarly engaged in over at the South,
you know, and there were challenges made from time to time,
but that came when I was in Waco. I was not in any specific
movements there; I think we all shared the concern and the
support, you know. I can't remember any specific incidents.
W: MID hmm. If you were gonna characterize Dallas during
those years in terms of the civil Rights Movements and race
relations, what would you say?
G: Well, I would say that, you know, for the most part,
Dallas was a very racist city at that time. It was
definitely very much segregated and was possibly typical of
what you'd expect to find in the South .
W: Uh, and I'm surprised that Thurgood Marshall was such a
presence or a force. Can you, uh, I mean, remember things
that he did that inspired you or that affected local issues
there in Dallas?
G: Well, he was a very militant speaker, you know, and
people liked to hear him speak; very militant. And very
popular in the black community. I remember hearing a
reporter, I think when he came back from the Orient, you
know, about how black people were treated and all that, and
G: investigations, so on. He would come down and speak,
you know, from time to time. Uh, no one ever thought he'd
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 27
be a justice of the supreme Court. But he was a big ... an
attorney, you know. He would come down .. . I think, we came
down possibly when they had the attempt to outlaw the NAACP.
And there was another attorney by the name of W.J. Burns who
was one of, well, he was sort of the father of the legal
group here of black attorneys in Texas.
W: Tell me about that attempt. When was it?
G: I think that was in the, possibly around the '50s.
W: And the grounds were that the NAACP was a subversive
organization?
G: Yes, and they were trying to put it out, but it's very
much like what is happening now with the KKK, you know . I
think somebody asked, and this attorney, you know, he was an
attorney for the NAACP, he had said that ... well, he was
right in that regard, because I remember that case. And so
the very same way I don't like the KKK, you know, they have
the same right to ... if they can do that with the KKK, they
could have done it with the NAACP. That's the way I see it.
I don't say that to many people, but that's the truth.
W: Well, it's the same principle, so ...
G: so, the people had given the NAACP attorney a great deal
of criticism because he was defending it. They fired him, I
think . But I think in some cities - no, in some states, in
Arkansas or something - where they had been successful.
They had taken these moves elsewhere and they were moving to
G: do that here in Texas, and it was quite a struggle and
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 28
went on for some time in Tyler, as I recall .
W: And so it was a very real threat, even though it was ..•
G: Yes, yes . It was a real threat, yes.
W: Ub, you went to Waco in ...
G: 1950, '50, 1951.
W: Ub, to take over a church there, or?
G: Yes, the ....... Baptist Church, one of the historic
churches of that community, organized in 1866. Rufus
Burleson then was the president of Baylor and steven
O'Brien who was pastor of First Baptist Church - White.
And, of course, Rufus Burleson baptized Sam Houston, so it
goes pretty far back. Can't get back much further than 1866
with us .
W: (Laughs) And, how long were you there?
G: 18 years.
W: And can you tell me about the Civil Rights Movement then
when things must have started heating up.
G: Well, Waco was a very provincial town. It was
different, and, you know, respects. However, it was
strange, because if the black community reached concensus on
something and tried to fight a certain principle or
whatever, they usually got results. The white community
would usually listen . That was the strange thing about it.
So that was ... I was there when Len Gunret .Bus boycott, you
know, took place. And we had an attempt to get a black milk
truck driver in the black community. And we talked with the
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 29
G: milk company about it, and they said no. And then,
well, the word was communicated that next time the white bus
driver came through the black community, we were gonna turn
the bus over, and they got upset. Then they got together
some of us who were leaders in the black community and said,
"Well, we know you've tried to do many of these things. Why
don't you call your people together and talk about what you
want and bring us a list of these things? And so, if we
can't work something out, we won't have all the turmoil that
some communities are having." Because at that time we were
having it. So, I did that. I called them together and I
set down, did at my own expense, and I sent letters, about
100 letters, I guess, to everybody who was a leader and who
thought he was a leader, you know. Garden clubs, everybody.
And we had to meet at the YMCA and we drew up a list of
things that we wanted; desegregation of this, and jobs, and
all that. And then we had ... they told us to elect a
committee, and I think we elected six or seven of us who
would represent the entire black community. I was
chairperson of it and then we met with the Chamber of
Commerce people; they had a committee, and that's how we
went through. They decided that they would desegregate some
of the restaurants. We announced that to our people and
that sunday everybody, you know, was getting that
announcement. And some of us went to those places and ate.
They served us - peacefully done. We did have a place,
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 30
uh ... 7-11, which was across the street from Paul Quinn, that
G: was in the black community, and they did not hire any
blacks. So, we picketed it; I marched in the picket lines
myself, and my children marched in the picket line . And
finally they conceded and they hired. That's ... then we did
a little ... another problem we had was Picadilly [Cafeteria].
We had gotten others to let down the bars; Picadilly would
not. It was headquartered in Baton Rouge. and they didn't
see why they should do that. And so then I told them, "If
anything happens, man, we negotiated in good faith with each
other. Because others who have opened up feel they are
being mistreated if you let Picadilly remain segregated".
So Picadilly finally opened up. picadilly opened up in Waco
before they opened up here, because they had the same
problem here. But I always would negotiate it through the
power structure; we were communicating together. So, we
desegregated many of the facilities at that town; Baylor ...
Ebner McCall who was president ... in the group, you know, and
he opened up the hospital. All these things and not a word
in the paper. That's the way Waco did it. There was a ...
went down, I think, with the exception of that 7-11 which
was a small operation and we picketed there. We had
problems getting in the theater, and when a group went down
to picket the theater, they gave them tickets so that they
went right in. [Phone rings, recorder is turned off
temporarily] What happened in Waco, it's a long happening
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN
... at that period, but we were meeting constantly, and we
had a good relationship, you know. And the story has not
31
G: been told of how peaceful that occurred, you know, and
how we were meeting together . A man who was instrumental in
that ... Jack Kulchen, who was owner of the Ford Motor
Company, who was like Roy Butler, here, you know - he ' s dead
now. And there were others who .. . Ebner McCall, is up in
years. But those were the key people. Some of the key
people, the Chamber of Commerce, a fella by the name of Joe
Ward, and all those people. And those of us in the black
community. we were considered key viewer and •. . Even if we
heard anything that may lead to something, we'd pick up the
phone and talk to each other.
W: Who were some other people in the black community that
maybe I should speak with?
G: Hmm. I don't know anyone who's in now. There was a
fella by the name of Anpel Heavens, I don't know whether
Anpel is even alive or not. There ' s another man by the name
of J. W. Williams - I don't know whether he ' s ali ve. See,
as time goes on, most of those people are gone. Because I
was young, then, and that's why I'm still around. (Laughs)
W: Why do you suppose it was so peaceful? I mean, it
sounded like you .. .
G: Well, I think what Martin Luther King and others were
doing in other places helped us, you see. If they had not
been doing those things, possibly we would not have had it
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 32
as easy as it appeared to be.
W: But you did have a threat of violence, to turn the milk
truck over and ...
G: Yes, yes, that's true.
W: Do you think that you needed that?
G: I don't know whether there was need or not, I'm just
reporting it ...
W: Uh huh. Well, I'm, you know ...
G: ... Because I didn't initiate it; I'm just ... you see, we
were called in after they got the word about that. And they
called us in to stop it. I said, "Wait a minute, I can't
stop it, I didn't start it." So, I said, "And what do you
have to offer?" And that's when all this started. If I had
said, "Yes, we'll see that that's taken care of," probably
that never would have happened. And I said, "Well, we've
got some concerns that we have." And,
"Well, then, go back and do this ... ".
started.
"What are they?"
So that's how it got
W: MID hmm. I think there's a perception that there was no
....... in Texas, and maybe because some of these things
were behind the scenes ...
G: Well, I think if you think of a civil Rights Movement
being in the sense of what we see in Martin Luther King's
activities, and what you see in Taylor Branch's account, and
all that. Texas was, in my opinion, different. Texas is
not the Deep South, in the sense of ... and you don't have the
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN JJ
large concentration of Blacks in the kind that we
entrenched, uh, added toward change that you found in those
places. So that, for example, if a group of us came
together and we moved to lead on a given issue, most of the
G: time we came out with just about what we were after.
Which means that keeps you from ... Now, if they'd said no,
then that makes you a force, and you become more powerful .
But that wasn't true in Texas. I don't know anyplace where
that happened. Whereas, in Montgomery, if they had said,
well, if they had compromised, they would have even
gotten ..• they had to do all that they did, you see, but each
time they failed to compromise, the demand for more came
each time. So that wouldn't have happened; that didn't
happen in Texas.
W: Uh, and was the rationale for not hiring a black milk
truck driver for the black community just that they couldn't
do the job, or didn't deserve such as ...
G: No, it was just prejudice, just prejudice. For example,
we didn't have any blacks on any of the city boards and
commissions at the time . When I went down and I asked about
it, you know, "We don't know any qualified ones." You know,
that was the general idea. In Dallas, I can remember when
there was no black policemen, you know. Not that there
weren ' t qualified people who could do it, but that was the
attitude . And when I came here, there was one, you see?
But that was just a way of life. Uh, that's the way it was.
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN 34
W: Uh, the "victories" that you just described are having
economic phase and ramification ... you know, that the milk
truck isn't gonna lose business in the black area, or the
milk company is gonna lose business in the black community,
or these restaurants are gonna lose business because of the
W: picket lines. So that seems to be one level of
desegregation, but the other ones are much more subtle and
complicated, I would imagine, like elected officials or
professionals, you know, in the police force, Or, you know,
I mean, the whole political realm must be a little bit
different story.
G: Well, I think, one of the changes that occurred, and I
read an article about this in the editorial, uh, one year
the candidates for the City Council ignored us. so, since
they didn't come to us, several of us got together, leaders
in communities said, "We'll ignore them." So, Reverend
Cooper, who grew up here, was pastor at Second Baptist
Church, and we were close friends. I was pastoring the New
Hope Baptist Church, sort of like ... our friendship was sort
of like Martin Luther King and Abernethy. So, we decided
that we would ask our people to write our names in as ... And
so we did, and we got about six hundred and some votes. It
was a rather light election, and there was enough votes that
those six hundred could have changed the election either
way. And it did, because they were all out there, and so,
after that, they never ignored us. You see, so ...
CIVRTS/GRIFFIN
W: What election was that?
G: This was the election of city Council, it was a city
council Election in Waco.
W: What time?
G: Hmm, it was possibly the '60s, about 1960, somewhere
right in there.
W: And the editorial appeared in the .. .
G: It was in the Waco paper.
35
W: What about school desegregation? What was your role and
the role of the NAACP in that?
G: Well, what Waco did when the school desegregation matter
came out, the decision was announced, uh, the school board,
without any prodding, voted to begin desegregation on a step
basis, in Waco. Which means, the first year it would be
integrated, then the next year the second grade, so it would
have taken twelve years that way. Uh, the next year, when,
before the fall term, back in the summer, early summer, when
they were discussing next year's work, they voted to
postpone that decision indefinitely. I was at that meeting
and I spoke ...
END OF TAPE I, Side 2