INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: AGNES JN~ES/LUCILE Jh~ES HARTWELL
INTERVIEWER: GEORGE HARTWELL
DATE: April 26, 1970
PLACE: Comfort, Texas
(Defective tape, hence the blanks)
GH: Aunt Agnes and Marna, tell us something about the Madero
deal down there (303 King William) with Grandpa. (Vinton L.
James)
AJ: Well, Lucile can tell more about that than I can because
I was at school, teaching, I don't know, it's early in the
20th century.
LH: The Fernandez' came from Mexico and lived across the
street in a little cottage and they had several Mexican girls
with them, Asusa and another one, and we took one and they
had the other one. And Mr. Fernandez, a Mexican , and Mrs.
Fernandez was an English woman, a very pretty woman, and had
a little girl, Irabelle. In Mexico they were hav ing a revo­lution
and he was in with all these people with Madero. One
day the door bell rang and I went to the door and there were
these men coming to have a meeting over in my father's house,
in the parlor. Some were from South America and different
places. Well, I don't know what they said but anyhow they'd
JAMES/HARTWELL 2.
LH: corne over one at a time and talk and they would tell
Papa to get word to Mrs. Madero, who was living at the
Presnell on Garden Street. My father used to go and see
herjtell what they said.
The whole family was there ...
AJ: My father and mother always arranged to be out of the
house, when this meeting of the junta occurred. They would
corne one at a time, when there was nobody looking ... they'd
look carefully up and down the street before going in. And
they met in our living room, parlor, as we called it at that
time. Lucile was the only one at home at that time. She
let them in and let them out. That was to avoid, of course,
any observance of these people meeting because they were
being watched by the Diaz people from Mexico. This was
before Madero became President. He was in trouble over
there ...
LH: They thought he may be killed; were after him all the
time. One time my father was across the street at a funeral
and he saw a big wagon load start and they were taking guns
out into the barn. He was so upset about it and when he
went home and found them there, he put them all underneath
the house in a little hole that nobody could get to. Do you
remember that, Agnes?
AJ: Yes, it was in a stone house, very thick stone, there
were air holes I suppose, cats and small animals could get
in but no person could get in and these guns were taken out
JAMES/HARTWELL 3.
AJ: f rom under the straw and placed in the stable .. thrown
in as far as they could get there. After the Revolution,
many, many boys tried to get those guns out. They would
have rakes and everything , and rake in there as far as they
could but nobody ever found any of the guns there. However,
we believe that they are still there.
And they used to carry messages. There was an old
charcoal man that carried charcoal from down at the border
to San Antonio and he'd come by with the charcoal and Mrs.
Fernandez would send messages to Mexico by that man. They'd
hide it underneath the charcoal .... And they always told us
that if people rode up on horseback, maybe a man would be
dressed like a woman, but they let them come in because they
were people with ..
AJ: Sympathizers?
LH: Yes. The Maderos ...
GH: Political refugees?
AJ : Coming over there and .. they were sympathizers with Madero.
LH: Yes .. before he was elected. And he was elected President.
At one time there was an old trunk that sat on our back
porch for ... just a trunk. Mr. Fernandez had put it the re
and way afterwards, a long time , wasn't it Agnes? They
found out it was the flag ..
AJ: battle fla gs,
LH: that they had wanted .. it was, who was the man that died
in France ?
AH: Maximil lian .
JAMES/HARTWELL 4.
LH: Yes, it was something like that; it was a very important
flag to the Mexican government. I don 't know what happened
to it.
AJ : Later, they were given to the Hexican government and
they are in the museum in Mexico City now.
LH: But it was just out there ; you didn't think anything
was in it at all. Because it was so light. But it was this
flag.
He was very peculiar. He couldn't talk good English.
And one time he sent a telegram to my father saying, "Please
tell Jesus that I will be home when God permits." That was
the telegram. Asusa was a Mexican girl that was working at
our house.
GH: Aunt Agnes, didn't you say something about that Grandpa
helped Madero or somebody's wife escape? Can you tell us a
little about that?
AJ: Before Madero went back to Mexico, my father allowed
them to use his horse and the Phaeton that we had,to put
this .. .. I don 't know if it was Madero himself or a nephew,
wanted to get back. But the nephew was disguised as a woman.
The Phaeton was driven by some friend . Again, my father
and mother were not at home. They couldn't hook them up with
it because they never allowed themselves any place around.
AJ: These two people who wanted to escape, and the one
dressed as a woman, was in the Phaeton and they drove around
on the other side from where the passengers usually get on
to the train .. I think it was at the Southern Pacific Station,
JAHES /HART,vELL 5.
AJ: if I remember rightly ... and there was someone on the
train who was in sympathy with them, opened the door from
that side and let this one dressed as a woman, in. He got
in and got back to Mexico safely.
Afterwards, when Madero was finally assassinated, my
father received a letter to that effect and it was his duty
to go to the Presnel on Garden Street, now known as South
St. Marys .. to inform Mrs. Madero and her family of the death
of her husband. He said it was one of the saddest errands
he had to perform in his whole life. Duties to perform.
But he did it.
Mr. Fernandez was always anxious to get Papa a wonder­ful
position in Mexico City, which of course was not feasible
at all. But he thought that if Hadero got in, that my
father could get some good, high-paying position. He did
get in, but he was assassinated.
GH: Was he assassinated while he was President?
AJ: Yes .
GH: I don 't remember my history.
I don ' t remember the dates; but it was early in the
20th century.
GH: Very shortly--
LH: There was a Mr. Griesenbeck ..
GH: Seems like it was
LH: You remember Mr. Griesenbeck that was crippled and a
little bit odd? And they would come over from Mexico and
JAMES/HARTWELL 6 .
LH: get him, these people that were not for Madero , and ask
him questions. And they said he gave .. I can't remember the
answers, we did know them at one time ... they couldn't find
out a thing. He would just ask them same questions back or
he would say something and it was just too funny ... every­body
thought he was just smart enough to do it. There was
something wrong with him.
Lottie : He was sick.
LH: He would ask, "Has your mama got any children?" Al l
kind of funny remarks.
He had two fine boys. He had such a nice wife. She
taught music ..
GH: I thought I remembered her. She taught music in the
public schools. I remember her .
That was 1900 .... early 1900's.
Lottie: Hugo Griesenbeck, wasn't that his name?
Yes, Hugo Griesenbeck, that's right. And this little
Arabel had this beautiful doll house and she gave it to
Teddy and Laura. And for years they played with it and then
Sadie had it.
GH: Do you know where it is today?
LH: Where?
GH: Under our house. We've got it.
AJ: Well, now your grandchildren will have it.
No way you can lose it.
They also gave a little Christmas tree; a little imita­tion
Christmas tree with little tiny ~inia ture f i gures on
JAMES/Hartwell 7.
it; a little carved monkey out of a pecan or a nut of
some kind, little ivory, little glass , tiny little things.
Just beautiful things; beautifully made ... to decorate that
little tree .. Laura and Ted had it for years. I don't know . ..
I guess Laura finally got it. I don't know where it is now.
Probably gone entirely.
AJ: Mr. Fernandez was a very jealous man; his wife was a
very beautiful woman and when they would go driving in their
little Phaeton, there was another man on the street, he
would say,"Patty, look straight ahead. Look straight ahead,
don't turn your head at all." She obeyed him. He had
another little idiosyncracy: he would shake hands \'lith you
very cordially and very deferentially, you know , shake hands
with you, and then go all around to everybody that was stand­ing
there and then, "Well, good-bye." And then start all
over again; do it two or three times before he ever left us.
LH: I wonder what happened? I believe he died, didn't he?
I don't know. I never heard of him.
AJ: I went down to Mexico many times; sometimes looked in
the book for him but I couldn't find him.
The little girl married, I know.
AJ: There was a beautiful picture of her, large picture ,
two or three different poses, hanging up in our garage for
years. They left it there with us ; we put it in the garage.
And I said I thought it was Betty and so I told Bettina, I
said, "Tina, I never could understand how you could l eave
that pretty picture of Betty hanging up in the garage." And
JAMES/HARTWELL B.
AJ: she said, "That wasn't Betty, that picture was Irabelle."
I don't think it's there now. I haven't been able to see
anything in the dark.
LH: You know, what I can't understand is there in that stable,
they had three stalls and in the top they had a square where
they threw the hay from, down.
AJ: From down, that sounds German!
AJ: The hay loft was filled from outside; a big truck would
drive up and a big door could be opened there and bales
were put up on top of the carriage house. Then there was a
step-down and there were two great big square holes with
boards around them to keep you from stepping into them. And
you'd throw the hay down; they'd pitch the hay down from
there.
LH: Yes, but these stalls had something to hold this around
and there was a board this big around each top and I know
you couldn't reach over and get that hole.
AJ: The boys could.
LH: Well I did it all the time. You'd pitch it and then
pull yourself over into that thing.
It was like a fence , you know.
We used to do it . We got away with it.
LH: You dropped down out of the hole and _grab it .
AJ: You dropped down onto the hay.
AJ: There wasn't any hay under there ..
LH: Well, usually.
LH: No, just used for--
JAMES/HARTWELL
When there was hay, the boys would drop down on it.
I did it all the time.
9.
You would swing, when you got through and got on to that
rail and come down.
Lottie: When I think back on the things I did when I was
young, I wonder how I lived through it.
GH: September 6, 1970, Comfort, Texas:
All right, go ahead. Devils River.
AJ: We slept out in the open, on pallets to keep the moon­light
out of his eyes. The cattle would feed all around us
and I would walk, I don't know how I happened to get on the
end ...
They all knew that I was very much afraid of cows, even
the sound of their voices.
--It was lunch time--
LH: Do you want to tell the part about ...
GH: Just talk. This isn't anything formal.
AJ: One day, I remember very vividly because I was so f r ightened,
we had finished lunch; we had an Irish cook, Mr. Mahoney, and
they cooked on these fires ... these iron pots, you know?.coals
on the top. Irish stew and could cook biscuits, too.
GH: Dutch oven.
AJ: vlell, and we ate off--the table was really a cot spread
out and we were all around there and the bulls and the cows
were feeding close to us. Papa was always daring me to do
something because he knew I was so afraid. I was ashamed to
JAMES/HARTWELL 10.
AJ: be afraid; but just the same, I was afraid. He said,
"Agnes, I'll give you a ... . _ if you'll throw that table cover
over your head and go jumping towards that bull. He'll be
frightened; he'll be afraid of you." I took the dare; I
don't know why I did it because I really was frightened. I
put the table cover over me, got down on my hands and knees
and hopped towards the bull. Well the bull raised his head
and all I could see was one big eye, just a few feet from
me, but the bull didn't move and I was afraid to take another
jump. And we just stared at each other for a while and then
finally the bull turned and nonchalantly walked away. (laughter)
But I was frightened to death.
AJ: One of the incidents: we used to get dressed early in
the morning; put on our clean clothes and go hunting for
arrowheads up on the mountains and we found some, too. We'd
stay out f or hours and finally we'd get so hot. Day would
become hot, and we'd come down to the river, the Devil's
River, and there'd be a shallow place there and we'd take off
most of our clothes. We left on a little bit; enough for
decency; and lie in the water and it was the most cool, re­freshing
bath that you could possibly have. And then we'd
get out, take off our wet clothes, and put our dresses on
top of them. The boys would take off their clothes, too,
you know dry almost iITmediately enough to put on in the sun­shine.
Get home and were we tired and ..
The cook got drunk .. I don't remember it.
JAMES/HARTWELL 11.
LH: I remember and Papa had to get rid of him I think. ---­little
girl. -------
There was people out from town there. Papa was city
Auditor and a lot of them came from further on? The? got
so bad that the Mayor got up and went home. They had to
send the wagons back after us because we went in a bus from
Del Rio. And we had to go home .....
on account of they were huge; just enormous rock
hills just in back of us. There wasn't any way we could
have gotten out of that. We just couldn't have gotten out
of it.
LH: We'd go swimming. One time we got into a hole and all
of us nearly got drowned out there.
hole and they grabbed the different
We stepped into a deep
ones .. , Edna Hummel
and Perchie were there, and it was very swift, the water was
swift and there was honeycomb rock and there would be sudden
holes that you could step upon. And Papa was carrying the
camera along the bank of the river, taking pictures, mother
was with him.
All of us children were in the water. Papa told me to
swim on ahead and find the shallow places; find the deep
places and to warn them. You couldn't swim against the
current, it was too strong. So I was swimming along and all
of a sudden I lookea back and Tina or Perchie had stepped
into one of the holes. And I said, "Just step out. There's
a rock there," and they couldn't ... they didn't know what to
do. And one went down and another one went down ..
JAMES/HARTWELL 12.
LH: They grabbed us.
they grabbed the other one, you know. Papa on the bank
put down his camera and jumped in .. no, !<lather did first,
jumped in first and Papa saw her and she didn't know how to
swim very well so he had to save her .. She was tossed onto
the bank; pull her out. And I kept yelling at 'em, "It's
not too deep. Step out. Step by the side." Finally they
did catch on and they were all pulled out. Papa finally
went in, too. So that they were all right. But that was
really a dangerous time; it might have been ..... Yelled to me,
"Agnes, get on to the bank." And I said, "No, there's a
cow over there."
GH: You were more scared of the cow than the water, eh?
AJ: I was more scared of the cow than I was of the water.
I had gone over that hole and I knew it. It was just
a big ... it went all along the side ..
GH: A shelf .. just a hole in the shelf all the way.
AJ: Yes. They could have just stepped up. They could have
just stepped up and they did finally pull each other out ..
Bettina and ..... And it rained and we had to take cover.
There was a tent with the trunks in it. We slept out in the
open usually, on cots. The rains came and some of us got
under this tent. I was so well protected; I got under the
ropes in the flap of the tent. The rains came and my cot
filled with water .. And some of ----, I think you were on a
trunk. But we had more fun, didn't we, in spite of it.
AJ: This was a different place, though.
JAMES/HARTWELL 13 .
AJ: This was a different camping .. Edna HUITmel was with us
and I think Perchie was there.
The next day, we had to dry out.
Papa would do all the cooking. He would sit on a camp
stool over the camp fire. The rest of us were all slaves
that waited on him. "Bring me this,
me the salt, bring me a little fish,
bring me that, bring
~ mea11 bread fixed in
the Dutch oven! (That's what they called it)
GH: Did you catch the fish?
AJ: Oh no. We didn't fish.
AJ: Papa did. And the boys did, yes.
A very interesting time on the Nueces River when my ...
was alive. We heard of the Pullman Ranch this time .. the dogs
had startled a deer. And they were after him and the deer
slammed into, jumped into the river and was swimming across
and John was on this side of the river and he had a pocket
knife. The dogs harried the deer so that he was hampered
so that he couldn't get away and John killed the deer with
a pocket knife. So he was a hero. We all thought it was
terrible but in my heart, I tell you, I felt so sorry for that
deer. I didn't dare say anything because John was the hero
of the hour.
Finally he did write up that article with Papa's help
and it was published in "Field and Stream" a little pamphlet
magazine about hunting.
GH: It's still going, too.
JAMES/HARTWELL 14.
AJ: Somewhere, I think it was Papa's papers ...
LH: My picture is in it ..... 1 caught a gasper .
AJ: Oh, yes.
GH: What's a gasper do?
AJ : It's a big, long fish with a long snoot, wasn't it?
LH: I think so.
AJ: A lot of teeth.
GH: Was it .. like a .... well, a gasper must be a gar. Was it
a gar?
AJ: Yes. Something like an alligator gar.
Couldn't eat it.
I had been sick with malaria and they took me to the
Nueces .. told me to just ... Dr. Hertzberg .. get in the water
and just sit there. And I was sick as could be .. there wasn't
any deep water ... and I pulled it out (alligator gar). Papa
told me what to do and then he took my picture .. overalls on
and a hat, a Mexican hat.
LH: Papa would dare us to jump off of anything, really. One
time there were a lot of gars just swimming around and he
dared us to jump off into that deep hole with these gars
all swimming .... . I was afraid, but I did it. Because I'd do
anything that Beta did. I was taught to swim from the very
beginning.
AJ: And one time to learn to dive ... "Now you go up on that
bluff (it wasn't a very high bluff) and jump off. And the
«(
rest of you go. Now Agnes , you go." I said, I'm afraid. I
JAMES/HARTWELL 15.
AJ: don't want to go." "You go up there and jump off. I'll
catch you. I'll be right here at the foot and I'll catch
you in the water." Then he said, "All right, I'll send John
up to push you off." And I said, "No." I was more afraid
of John pushing me off. So I held my nose and I jumped in.
He saved me.
GH: He sort of pushed you all, didn't he?
AJ: Oh, yes he did. He made us .... He taught--------the
water all the way across Grandma Steve's pool. George almost
got drowned there, when I was .....
GH: I still remember even though I was just a little bitty
thing .. it's still in my memory. I can remember falling i n
that thing and just turning .. that's all I remember.
looked over and saw this cage (?)
GH: How old was I then?
Well, you were just walking good, I think.
GH: Strange that I could remember.
Well, you were old enough to remenilier. You weren't
big enough to take in • . -.. Had this little rail, you
know, and he got on the steps and fell off of that. And all
the other children were there, too.
I don't know what I was doing. I Was having a good time,
talking. I guess.
GH: Like I said, it's strange that I remember falling in
that water and just turning. Just turning round and round ...
that's all I can remember.
JAMES/HARTWELL 16.
AJ: Somebody jumped in and pulled you out.
LH: I went out with Papa one time, Uncle Ed and Papa, camp­ing
a long on the Nueces. There was a man on a little pony
that he rode all through the country all the time. Kip
McKinney , his name , ------side of meat, venison , you know,
dried venison. All of his belongings were right on this
little pony. Well, he got out and had supper with Uncle Ed
and Papa. I can remember that meat to this day; it was full
of sand and Papa and all of 'em were braggin', the others,
were braggin' on how good it was. I couldn't eat it for the
sand. I was just a little girl; I wasn't very old.
AJ: Kip McKinney, I think, was quite a character. Now they
knew Billy the Kid and all of those.
GH: Was he an outlaw, this Kip McKinney?
AJ: I don't know whether he was an outlaw, but he had not ...
he just lived on the land.
GH: An old-time hippy, eh?
AJ: Yes, I guess so.
END OF TAPE I, Side 1
: ............ Papa tells about it in his book.
AJ: In fact, I think Kip McKinney was with them when they
went out ... Billy the Kid was a ladies' man .. the ladies all
liked him. That's the way they caught him. He went out to
see one of his ladies and they surrounded him. He was the
one who had a notch on his gun for every man .. I believe every
year that he lived , wasn't it? 31.
GH: Yah. Well now, did Grandpa know Billy the Kid? Did
he ever meet him? Did he ever say anything about meeting him?
JAMES/HARTWELL 17.
AJ: Marna tells a story about Papa out on his ranch.
Rustlers (7) were stealing the cattle ... and getting away
with it and nobody could catch them ... One day he had a young
fellow carne to his, wherever he was, a little cabin, he was
out there alone, .. it was Billy the Kid. He invited Billy in ..
what he thought was Billy the Kid. He never could prove it.
Gave him coffee and whatever he had to eat; He believed that
this young man was one of the rustlers.
Said, "I'm going to leave some money, when I'm away. I
hope they'll take that money and leave my cattle alone," to
go off some place to get supplies. Palmer Giles tells that
beautifully. I wish ...
GH: We'll have to get him.
LH: George, you ought to read Papa's book after he finished
it. It's interesting.
GH: I've read it but it's been years since.
LH: I skip around. I started at the first and I read through
it. And so many of those places that he told, you know, ..
One time Hr. Sam Bell and ... Sam, John and I went .. the only
girl ... to this beautiful swimming pool-------. I've always
wanted to go back there. It was a big sort of like Marie's,
you know, like that. And of course, they wanted to go swimming
so they sat me in back of the trees to play while they went
swimming. We didn't have bathing suits. I was so mad. I
kept talking to myself. I said, "They'll never get me out
on another hike with them." That's the way they treated me.
To this day, I'd like to go back.
JAMES/HARTWELL 18.
GH: Where was that?
LH: som~lace on the Nueces River. I don 't know exactly
where.
GH: Of course, through the years it's probably changed.
LH: But it was just a ... you could see way down and you
could see the fish swimn1ing in it. Just a big pool and then
it got smaller, you know. It was all rock up here where they
dove off.
Papa would take me when he went huntin' .. at that time
they didn't have ... he was huntin'; I was carrying the fishing
pole; and when he was fishing I was carrying the gun. He
had a big old sack .. you know, kind of a stuff that they put ..
AJ: Canvas.
LH: Canvas sack To put quail and all and I had that, too.
GH: Game sack.
LH: And I'd have that, too and we'd walk allover the
country .. just for hours. And Papa would just enjoy ... he
usually ...... but I loved it. I always liked togo. I liked
to get out of school.
GH: Did he take you out of school?
LH: He'd say, "Lucile is lookin' pale. (laughter) I think she
needs a vacation."
AJ: There was one time that Lucile didn't go. She was sick.
What .. ?
LH: I had malaria.
AJ: Malaria fever. And Uncle Ed and Uncle Bennie took us
JAMES/HARTWELL 19.
AJ: in a big wagon, I guess a Studebaker wagon, had high
sides to it and seat, and we traveled through the country.
I don't know what places we went to--
LH: Went out to Medina Lake.
AJ: Medina, I believe it was, Medina River. And we'd stop
and we'd cook bacon and they had canned peaches and they
wouldn't open them and that's all we wanted .. the peaches.
Bettina was along that time, I think. And Vinton and John,
Clyde (?) and Uncle Bennie and Uncle Ed would get up and sit
by the camp fire and make coffee and drink coffee and talk
all night long. The girls, Bettina and I, slept in the bed
of the wagon. They took the seats out, you see, slept in
the wagon and the men slept on pallets on the ground.
GH: That's the time I should have lived. Back in those
days.
AJ: You would have enjoyed it. We did.
GH: I guess one reason I liked Scouting; messed around with
the Scouts.
AJ: Out in the open, in the woods. Mr. Winerich and Will,
William Winerich was a little boy and we walked and we'd go
on and I can just remember .. That's when you hurt your shoulder
and they put cactus poultices on it. She should have been
taken to a doctor. On this same shoulder, put cactus poul­tices
on .... burn off the spines and then put a cloth around
it and then put it and it would slip and slide over my back.
But Lucile took care of me.
But we'd talk and ... we had cots up but most of the time
we slept on the ..... I got in an argument out there .... was
JAHES/HARTWELL 20.
such a good church member. His father was a preacher ...
and went and asked him and he said my father was a saloon
keeper.
(AJ: Taking a long time to make the chalupas ... be ready ... )
GH: What did you say about your Grandfather riding by or
something?
LH: He was sick a long time. r can just remember him coming
by. What do you call those .. victorias?
AJ: Yah.
LH: And the driver sits way up in the front and the seats
are down. And Hrs. Andrews was there. They'd drive by and
stop and talk. But they didn't get out because ..
GH: What date .... they lived down on Romana Plaza and you
all lived where?
We lived on King William. You see Papa, Grandpa gave
Hama the house across from them on Romano. And Papa didn't
like it; said it embarrassed the family to death. They lived
there a while and he didn't like it so they sold that house
and bought one on King William from Hr. Stevens.
GH: Didn't he first have the house across the street from
there ... 303? Or rented it or lived there a while because r
think .. .
Yes, r think so. And then he bought ... r can't swear
about that. But Uncle Alred built those houses across the
street. Then Hr. Stevens, r think he was the one that had
the street car and all that kind of ...
JAMES/HARTWELL 21.
GH: He had the Electric Company.
LH: Yes. And Papa bought it for, I believe, .... I've got a
little clipping someplace, told how much he bought it for.
Beautiful horne. It's ..... from him. Moved there.
GH: Were you born there?
LH: I was the first one born there.
GH: At 303.
LH: I believe Agnes was born in that little cottage across
the street.
GH: Was it the cottage or the house on the corner ... the
two-story house?
LH: Oh no, I can remember when they built that two-story
house. Mr. Winerich built that.
GH: I always misunderstood. I thought it was the big house.
LH: No.
GH: It was the little cottage next to this ..
LH: There were two little cottages just alike. And then
you see Beta (?) moved there, lived there.
GH: I remember that.
LH: Beta was born in Grandma's house on Commerce Street.
That's where she was born.
GH: It seems like Aunt Agnes kept saying that you were the
first one born in that house.
END OF INTERVIEW
Side 2, about 5 minutes.
JAMES ,AGNES & LUCILE HARTWELL INDEX
MADERO ,FRANCISCO , 1-5 BILLY THE KID, 16,17
Two James sisters talking about the Francisco Madero
days in Comfort ; family life ; fami ly outings; in the early
part of the 20th century.