THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: History of Jazz
INTERVIEW WITH: James L. Hayne (1 tape)
DATE: 5 July 1995
PLACE: Sterlin Holmesly's office
INTERVIEWER: Sterlin Holmesly
TAPE I, Side 1
H: Interview with Jim Hayne on the Oral History of Jazz Project, July 5, 1995, in my office. This is Sterlin Holmesly.
JH: I'm Jim Hayne; been in San Antonio since 1961. Moved down here with my wife of two years, Roxanna, known as Roxie. And Roxie and I lived at 300 Paseo Encinal for several months, along with Joan and Herb Kelleher, who happened to moved down here at the same time from New Jersey
where he was clerking for a Supreme Court judge. And I'd just gotten out of the Air Force, I guess, a year before and had been working in Philadelphia for Owens-Corning Fiber Glass, and so we decided, separately, to give San Antonio a try. I'd met Henry Catto Jr., and he and I got to be good friends before I married his first cousin, Roxie. And he said, "Why don't you come down and give Catto and Catto a try?" And so I went into an entirely different business, in an entirely different land, and I've never looked back.
H: Thirty-four years later?
JH: That's right.H: Now, you also have a background in jazz. Tell me about your early days and your college days and how you wound up on Arthur Godfrey's television show.
JH: Well, we had a band at Williams College, Williamstown, Massachusetts, called The Spring Street Stompers. All students, except for the clarinet player, who was a man named Water Layman, who was a teacher at one of the country day schools in Williamstown and who was a jazz musician from way back. He was the only ringer in the band; the rest of us were all freshman and sophmores. I guess it was when...my sophmore year, which would have been 1953, was when we got the Stompers started. And played around, began to get a reputation. I guess our normal venues were Vassar and Smith and Yale and Mount Holyoke, places like that. So the student named Bob Lawrence, who is now in California - I think he works for Walt Disney now - had an idea, he was our manager, that maybe these college kids might ought to go on Arthur Godfrey's Talent Scouts. So we sent them a disc of what we did, interviewed, and they agreed to let us on. The director of admissions at the time was a fellow named Fred Copeland at Williams who agreed to be our chaperon. So we went on down to New York from Williamstown - in those days about a four-hour drive - and appeared live with Arthur Godfrey with three other contestants. And of course, Arthur Godfrey being an old jazz banjo player and loving the music the way he did, was crying by the time we finished our tune, which I think was "That's A Plenty", or something, one of JH: the old war horses. And admittedly, we had a few people from Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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Williamstown but we weren't in the majority in the audience, nevertheless our applause - remember the old applause meters? ...
H: Right. Yeah.
JH: ...got us the...won us the deal. So in those days Arthur Godfrey had a daytime show. So we went on his daytime TV show with the likes of the McGuire Sisters and Julius LaRosa and we appeared and we played "Royal Garden Blues" or "Muscat Ramble" or whatever it might be, for a couple of days. I have to tell you that when we did win it, the night, or a couple of nights before, there were only two or three TV sets in the whole campus in those days in Williamstown, and a good number of the student body were gathered around to see what the local boys were going to do. And when we won, apparently the campus erupted and everybody ...this was a big thing, putting a little ole school like that on the map. (Excuse me.) So, one thing led to another and we were still playing at all these schools on the East Coast and once again some of the folks who were promoting us, pushing us - full-time students - obviously decided to have a mid-night jazz concert at Carnegie Hall. We got in touch with the folks at Carnegie Hall, and they said, "Sure, it's never been done before." Called it, "College Jazz Goes to Carnegie Hall". And we did it on the Saturday night of the Thanksgiving vacation in 1954, I believe it was. Along JH: with Princeton, Stan Ruben's "Tigertown Five". And it was a sell-out, standing room Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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only, first time it'd ever been done. Unfortunately, the students were a little bit unruly and did a little bit of damage, but not enough to keep us from doing it the following year. In which case we brought in Yale, "Eli's Chosen Six", the "Dartmouth Indian Chiefs", and Ruben again. Ruben, incidentally, in those days had a mostly ringer band; they were not Princeton students, except for a couple of them. So we were, I think, the purest of the group, very fine musicians, all of them.
H: You told me earlier, before we got on tape, that you had...you learned jazz, to appreciate jazz, from your Dad. That he would take you around to concerts in New York, and so it came naturally to become a player; presumably the talent was there too.
JH: He loved it, and he was a jazz drummer at the Univer-sity of Illinois, and played a little bit in Chicago, which is where he was
...his home town and which is where I was also born. Yeah, we used to go to Eddie Condon's in the Village, Nick's on Seventh Avenue and West 10th, Village Vanguard, and places like that, and just listen to the music.
H: Late lamented.
JH: The late lamented. We used to see the likes of Miff Mole and Pewee Irwin, oh, just the great names, Peanuts Hucko. And of course, down at Condon's we'd see, besides HJ: Condon, Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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it'd be a moveable feast of those musicians like George Brunis, who's venue was Chicago, mostly Hank Lawson, Wild Bill Davidson, Edmond Hall, Bob Haggart, Milt Hinton...
H: All the legends.
JH: ...and Cliff Leman. Yeah.
H: Right. And then you come to San Antonio in '61, and presumably you still like or love jazz. You were a trom-bonist; you brought your trombone with you?
JH: I did, somewhere in my Air Force paraphernalia, because for some reason I had it with me overseas when I was in Tokyo with the Air Force. But I really didn't know where it was.
H: No.
JH: Until I got to the Argyle one night at a party and saw Jim Cullum Sr. and his son Jim Jr., who at that time knew four or five songs is all, playing a little gig in the Ursula Room at the Argyle, and they didn't have a trombone, so...
H: And what year was that?
JH: That was 1962.
H: That was your first meeting with the Cullums?
JH: That's right. First time I'd ever met them. Jim was just still in school or just out; I'm not sure which.
H: So you said, "Say, do you need a trombone?"
JH: You've got it exactly, Sterlin! "I'll be right back", I think is what I told my wife. And I went home and I found that thing and came back, oiled it up, put some water on it, Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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got the slide working, and sat in with them. It was about a six-piece band, and Jim Cullum just couldn't - Senior - couldn't get over it. That high voice, remember, that he had?
H: Oh, yeah. High pitched voice.
JH: "I can't believe this, Man. Where'd you learn how to play?" And all that kind of stuff. So that started our relationship.
H: And that led to the original Landing?
JH: Right.
H: In the basement of the Nix Hospital on the San Antonio River. And as I recall, '63.
JH: That's exactly right. April of '63, we opened.
H: And how did that come about?
JH: Well, a couple of us were interested - you know how young people are - opening up a jazz joint. It happened there was a fellow that - very talented - that lived in San Antonio, long since moved to Dallas, named Frank Blaybaum. Sang with the Barbershop Chorus here, and was a very talented arranger, loved the music, loved jazz, had heard Cullum. And one day we were just walking up and down the river, and you remember, Sterlin, in those days the only thing there was Casa Rio?
H: Yeah.
JH: And we found this kind of abandoned basement under the Nix [Hospital] - it's actually under the Nix parking garage. And we said, "Wouldn't it be fun if...?" So, I took it from Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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there - Frank was otherwise busy - and put together twenty-two of my friends and acquaintances and asked them for five hundred to a thousand dollars each, to open up this place that we came up with named The Landing. And they thought, of course, half of them thought it was a great idea, the other half were humoring me. And...
H: Can you name the twenty-two original investors?
JH: I could; it would take me some time, but the...
H: Just give us some of them.
JH: Well, it started off with David Brooks, who was then the CEO of the Nix Hospital. And so he was an enthusiastic participant. Herb Kelleher, who is now the CEO of the Southwest Airlines, donated his legal time to put together the corporation that owned the Landing, Inc. And then we had Arthur and Frates Seeligson. A fellow named Buzz Butler, Johnnie Matthews, who's a stockbroker here. I could ...oh, Ed Muir, who is also in the securities business, was a strong supporter. And I could name most of them, but it would take me a while to think about it.
H: Right. Okay, so the corporation owned the land. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was opened like two nights, two or three nights a week...?
JH: We tried every possible formula.
H: Yeah. Thursdays and Saturdays and...
JH: Right.
H: ...and those were the pre-mixed-drink days. People Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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brought the brown bottles and bought set-ups.
JH: Yeah, they brown-bagged it.
H: And did the Nix donate that basement space or did you lease it from them?
JH: No. David was...it was admittedly a brother-in-law price, but we paid rent and had to meet that obligation every month and did.
H: All right. And so the Cullums' band, then known as the Happy Jazz Band,...
JH: Happy Jazz Band.
H: ...Jim Cullums',plural, Happy Jazz Band...
JH: Right.
H: ...which at the time I thought was a very awkward title to deal with. Played in that until they moved to Landing Number Two, which was under the Stockman Restaurant...
JH: Right.
H: ...in a more active location on the River. How many years were they in that original? About, do you remember?
JH: I'd say seven to eight.
H: Early '71 or '72 is when they moved...
JH: Yeah.
H: ...to the new location.
JH: Of course, you know, I had to make that deal with Jim JH Senior. I kept asking him to do this and he'd said he'd already had his own club in Dallas and it didn't work and he Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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didn't want any part of it. Of course, he was dying to do it, he just really didn't want to, at the time he was running that Cullum Wholesale Food business.
H: Right.
JH: And so, he finally gave in. He said, "All right, Man, but only if you play trombone." So that's why I had to start playing there with the original group.
H: The original Landing, though, was owned by these twenty-two stockholders?
JH: That's right.
H: And then, let's say, '71 the band moves to the new location. What happens to the corporation that owned the Landing or leased the Landing?
JH: That's a very good question. To the best of my knowledge that corporation may still be in existence. The people who had been the backers and the shareholders never got a dividend, other than they got into the Landing free, because there was a charge to get in. And occasionally they'd get a free beer or whatever it was, and then when the mixed drinks came in, they were, most of them, good supporters of the Landing. They never got a dividend, but they didn't care. Many, many times over, all of them said, "We'd do it again if we could end up with a band like this."
H: But in the interim, the Happy Jazz Band went from very H: talented amateurs to a professional band, which as I Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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recall, happened about '75. At some point did Jim Cullum - Junior and Senior, or later just Junior - buy out the cor-poration?
JH: Well, in effect, they started another corporation called Happy Jazz.
H: Okay. So they walked away; as I recall, they also went into the record business.
JH: That's right. And we didn't...we gave them our blessing.
H: Okay.
JH: Because...yeah, I suppose they could have bought us out, but on the other hand, they couldn't afford to. And going from having daytime jobs to - especially Jim Jr., who's kept this going for all these years - needed all the support he could get. So we welcomed his taking hold of it and doing his own thing.
H: Well, he's turned out to be a pretty good business manager, too.
JH: Absolutely. I mean, how else, with as tough as that go is, to play the original classic jazz every evening on the River and, incidently, do some extensive traveling around the United States and the world, playing this music.
H: National Public Radio.
JH: National Public Radio. He is to be complimented. He can't be complimented enough for what he's done to keep this JH: thing going. Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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H: And to my knowledge, until last year he never took a cent of public money. And there was a fund raiser last year.
JH: I never knew Jim to take any money himself, other than for Public Radio.
H: Yeah. That was...
JH: That was later.
H: ...but he never took any city money, any state money, any federal money. He did it all entrepreneural, and at times, I remember some very perilous times when it all al-most went under. Back in the mid-'70s, and it would always be February and March.
JH: That's right. The worst time. As you know, the river would dry up, there wouldn't be anybody there,...
H: The cold and...
JH: ...contrast that today when every day is a holiday on the river. All year long. But that was part of the metamorphosis, the evolution of the River Walk. And so as the River Walk got more hotels, more tourists, more con-ventions, Jim did better. And in fact, in some years he prospered, relatively speaking, or at least relative to the other years.
H: Right. I know there were times - and Jim said the same thing on other tapes - when he was personally liable for up to a hundred thousand dollars at a local bank.
JH: Yes.
H: Just to keep the place open.Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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JH: Now there have been some co-signers on those notes.
H: Right. Were you one of them?
JH: Yes.
H: But that's all gone away now with Landing Number Three, which is in the heart of the River traffic under the Hyatt Hotel.
JH: For the most part.
H: Yeah.
JH: For the most part, yes, I would say that's right. Jim has paid his debts...
H: He's paid his [inaudible... not in Landing Number Three?
JH: Yes. To the best of my knowledge. Now, of course, he has a partner in that, B.K. Johnson, who is a major owner of the Hyatt Hotel...
H: Right.
JH: ...is one of his partners in the current Landing in the Hyatt, which is a good alliance.
H: How do you explain that in 1995 there is a jazz club that plays...nothing's been written that they play since about 1940? What stimulates the continuing interest? Other than the tourists, who stumble in and get drunk and yell a lot? But there's obviously still some interest in your music and my music and Jim Cullum's music after all these H: years?
JH: Sterlin, that's an excellent question. I have my own views on this. I will say that jazz is part of, if not the foundation of, what I would call traditional American folk music. As you Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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well know, better than I, the beginnings of jazz were founded from not only the minstrels, but the Black influence, the African rhythms, the...
H: Slave music.
JH: ...slave music, the blues, that evolved into the blues from the sorrow and the oppression that these people suffered. But European strings, classical, the Bach fugues, and what-have-you, all was part of the beginnings of jazz. But I feel that Americans yearn for their roots, simpler times, and the music is one way to express the traditions, the culture of a country. And since many learned historians have said that jazz is the only true American art form, I think that Americans are curious about it. And that even inlcudes the classical composers, as well as impresarios, as well the producers, and as well as the entertainment industry itself. Jazz is - classic jazz, from which all the modern jazz forms have evolved - is at the roots of, I think, the American psyche. And I don't want to get too involved here with my own feelings, but I've noticed the yearning on the part of young people, for example, to know the simple songs. And when I say simple songs, those that are passed from generation to generation like: "I'm JH: Looking Over A Four Leaf Clover", "Five Foot Two", these kinds of things. All..."Ace in the Hole"...are all the kinds of things of which jazz is made, and, in fact, our jazz tunes, as well as those specifically written by mostly Blacks for jazz.Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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H: What Jim Sr. used to call the real stuff.
JH: The real stuff. And when we were in school we called them the war horses.
H: Right. What...talk to me some more about Jim Jr. and Sr. As you said, when you first heard them they knew five or six tunes.
JH: Well, Junior did. Senior knew them all.
H: Yeah. They...meant the band.
JH: Right.
H: Well, when I first knew Jimmie, he had about half an octave on the cornet, and almost no breath control. But he has done everything to build on what was originally a small talent, and, in my opinion, is one of the better cornet players in the country now.
JH: Unquestionably.
H: And he did it almost by force of will.
JH: A real love and strong respect for his father, the traditions of jazz, the opportunity to make something of himself in the music world, not being formally trained to begin with, yes. He is a world-class jazz cornet player. He is a student of all that form of music and can emulate... JH: in fact, Louie, as you've heard him...he prefers Louie, but also he can play kind of like Hackett, and a good bit like Beiderbeck when he really puts his mind to it.
H: Well, when I first knew him he was entranced by Beider-beck.Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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JH: Uh-huh.
H: And he couldn't play like that. I remember twenty-three takes...
JH: Nobody could play like Beiderbeck!
H: Of course, but Jimmie was twenty-something years old; he didn't realize that.
JH: Right.
H: And I remember twenty-some odd takes on "Singing The Blues", and he could never do the Bix break. Jim Sr. could do it; Gene McKinney could do it; Jimmy, the key player, couldn't do it. He didn't have the control.
JH: Right.
H: He can do it now! Very easy. In fact, he did it for me the other night at my retirement party.
JH: Oh, he did?
H: Yeah.
JH: Well, I think he can do just about anything he wants to, now. He's a real leader of the group. And he's recognized by all these jazz stars they bring in for Public Radio as being a leader.
H: Sure. And they bring in the big names, the Yank H: Lawsons, and Bobby Haggart and...
JH: [inaudible]... especially.
H: ...Clark Terry, Milt Hinton.
JH: Clark Terry is a hoot. He's one of the best. He kind Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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of ties...Clark Terry...we're getting on a tangent, but Clark Terry ties together the old, the Black, let's say the historical part of the evolution of the Black jazz musician, into somebody who plays the stuff that's way out of sight now. I mean, I think he's better than Winton Marsalis, for example. Winton is still learning.
H: Personal opinion...Winton is very good technically, but to me he doesn't always swing.
JH: He doesn't. That's right. He doesn't have the heart...
H: Yeah.
JH: ...for some reason.
H: The...you knew the other players in the original band.
JH: Yeah.
H: Ben Valfney, the first banjo...
JH: The postman.
H: The postman. Harvey Kindervaton, the drummer, an IRS agent.
JH: Agent. That's right.
H: It bothered me. The first time I met Harvey, he was driving a Lincoln, and I said, "What's an IRS man doing with a Lincoln?"
JH: [laughter] Well, I'm sure his answer was elusive.
H: [laughter] Yes.
JH: Yeah.
H: And Gene McKinney also played trombone.
JH: Wonderful musician. Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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H: I thought he was the best musician of the lot, at the time.
JH: Great bass player incidentally. When his chops blew out, he got a little bit of emphysema, he started playing the bass.
H: Yeah. He's was just a very sound musician.
JH: And of course, Willson Davis, the old...
H: Sousaphonist?
JH: ...yeah, the old Aggie Sousaphonist, who was a solid musician.
H: He really put a bottom to that band.
JH: He did.
H: And Cliff Gillette and...
JH: Cliff Brewton before Gillette.
H: Cliff Brewton first.
JH: Right.
H: For about a year or so?
JH: Cliff Brewton? Oh, no. Oh, gosh, Cliff was...
H: I thought he died in about '64 or...?
JH: Oh, not before we went...took the whole band down to Mexico and played in the bull ring down there. Cliff was JH: ...
H: Was that Zacatecas?
JH: Zacatecas.
H: Yeah, an album came out of that. Yeah. And then Cliff Gillette, and...
JH: Cliff was a wonderful man, great musician.
H: Yeah.Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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JH: But not as much of a natural. He was more of a rhythm instrument than a performer...soloist.
H: Soloist. Yeah, which is fine for that type of band.
JH: Sure. Gosh, I could tell you stories about going into Mexico with that old hearse from the Pearl Brewery and...
H: Well, tell us about it!
JH: Well! The State Department asked us to go down there as a kind of an exchange program. And...
H: This was the first trip? Out of the country?
JH: Uh-huh. And so we went down there in a '68 yellow Buick convertible, which happened to be mine, I'd bought for HemisFair, and a long black hearse that Ed Muir bought from Otto Koehler, the Pearl Brewery, and refurbished it, put about ten tires on the rack on top and most of the band in there and took off not knowing exactly where we were going to end up. But we were supposed to go to Monterrey and we finally did get there. And we lost Cliff Brewton, the piano player. He got out and said nature was calling and somebody in the black car, the hearse, said, "That's fine; the yellow JH: car will pick you up in about ten minutes. Don't worry about it; they're behind". Well, the yellow car was in front of the hearse...
H: [laughter] Oh, boy!
JH: ...and when we got to the next town, "Where's Cliff Brewton?" He was...we went back, retraced our steps, and he had gotten out...besides the call of nature, he'd seen a tire Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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fall off the top of this hearse and went down into an arroyo, and he was wearing his pajamas and a derby hat. And the only reason we found him was, we saw this black derby going along the edge of the arroyo; didn't even see his face, just this black derby. And the sun was going down, totally unconcerned, rolling this tire down the arroyo. He was confident we were going to pick him up! And, my god, it was the middle of nowhere! But then, you know, he just went on and on, uproarious stories.
H: Was that the trip where they told of Curly Williams, that the Mariachi Square was the Union Hall, and that's where people waited to be hired for jobs, and Curly believed him and went...?
JH: That was the next trip.
H: The next trip.
JH: Yeah. And hung out with [inaudible]... Because Benny Valfney was the banjo player at the time, and Curly replaced him.
H: Yeah.
JH: I think that's right. Yeah. [laughter] I was out of the band by the time they did the second trip. Probably saved my business career, Sterlin!
H: [laughter] Had to stay with your real job.
JH: Uh-huh.
H: Well, it was getting pretty demanding there. At some point, didn't Landing Number One expand to five nights a week?
JH: Yes. Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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H: There was enough business to...?
JH: Yeah. You know, we hired Trinity students, for the most part, to wait on tables, and they were an exuberant bunch and they had a lot of fun. Of course, we didn't pay 'em much; they just got tips. And I forget what year mixed drinks finally came in, but...
H: HemisFair.
JH: HemisFair, that's right.
H: '68.
JH: So that was a...that was a Godsend to the finances of the club.
H: Plus you had the sing-alongs?
JH: Yeah. Remember Jimmie Gause?
H: Sure do.
JH: Great guy. Jimmie, that was his purview, his province. We developed a songbook with all the...such as the songs I was just mentioning earlier, for people to sing-along, read-JH: along, and sing-along, and that was...
H: "Remember Me to Herald Square."
JH: Sure.
H: And "Your Cheatin' Heart." For some reason I remember that. Harvey Kinedenvaten and the heavy country beat.
JH: I know. And, see, a lot of our supporters in those days were, naturally, other people who loved to sing, as well as play instruments. And that was the Chordsmen - the San Antonio Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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Barbershop group. And they were always down there, listening and singing and helping us out. It was a very fun, happy time, and they don't do that anymore.
H: It was a...literally, a happy jazz band.
JH: Yeah, it was.
H: It was not a, what I used to call a funny hat band; I mean they played the real stuff. But it was a lot looser than it is now, and not as good musically.
JH: No, but it was more classical, a lot less complicated.
H: Right. You show up, bring your brown bag or order a beer or whatever and have a good time. That's all there was to it. And you left happy.
JH: And in those days the musicians and, you know, everybody was having as good time as the audience.
H: Uh-huh.
JH: It was one of those things...that's what sustained it because it certainly wasn't the money. I never took a quarter for playing down there. I didn't, since I was an JH: owner" and, I guess, the president or the chairman. I think Jim Sr. might have been chairman; we didn't...we had to...ask Jim Cullum...has struggled through for the past thirty years...you have to pay the musicians. But of course now they make a decent enough living that they're all full-time musicians.
H: And have been for almost twenty years.Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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JH: Yes.
H: And some of them do quite well.
JH: That's right.
H: Because they also play daytime or they have separate gigs and then...
JH: Allen Vache, who was a clarinet player for many, many years, up until two years ago. I happened to be out in San Diego six months ago in La Jolla, and they were having the San Diego Jazz Festival and there was Alan Vache, and it's quite an honor to be invited to things like that...along with his brother Warren. So, yeah, graduates of the band have gone on. I'll tell you one of the things that keeps that band going the way it does, along with Jim, is John Sheridan.
H: John is a...
JH: Piano player.
H: Yeah, the piano player and, in many people's opinion, including mine, right close to a genius...
JH: [inaudible]...
H: ...on arranging.
JH: No question, Sterlin. Probably the best extant, all-around jazz piano player in the United States, arguably, is a fellow named Dick Hyman.
H: Uh-huh.
JH: Dick Hyman says that John Sheridan is the only other piano player that he genuinely enjoys playing with, because they Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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compliment each other.
H: Right. And they play together. And, of course, John's strength is the Fats Waller type piano.
JH: Exactly. "Stride."
H: "Stride" piano, and he and Hyman both do it. I think Hyman is an extraordinarly accomplished musician, but I don't know who Dick Hyman is because he's always doing the repertory stuff.
JH: He doesn't have an identity like John.
H: John has an identity.
JH: That's right.
H: He's very distinctive. Jack Wyatt, you remember, played bass?
JH: Sure.
H: Told me a story once. For some reason, Jack's wife was still in Fort Worth and Jack was here, and Jack roomed with John. And I said, "How's it going, Jack?" And he said, "Well, you know, that fine line between genius and insanity?"
H: I said, "Yeah." He said, "John wanders back and forth all the time!"
JH: [laughter] It's a great musician story! Let me tell you another quick musician story. When we were in college we also were on the Tonight Show. In those days it was Steve Allen. Because Steve had found out, or his producers had found out, we'd been on Godfrey, so they're both on NBC so we were invited down to be on there for a week. We actually played three nights, Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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I think. And in those days the band leader was Skitch Henderson. And you remember the old sound stages for television, when television was live. It was a labyrinth of tubes, pipes, lights and cameras and you'd...just people everywhere, but when you're on - all this was live. But we, as nineteen-twenty year old students, remember, one of the little vignettes, the images that stick out in your mind, was that Steve Allen was into some monologue and was kidding around and so on...the band was there. The band was in another part of the set, and on camera looked close, but it was a long way unless you wanted to run across camera, which Skitch Henderson did once in a while, so instead of doing that, Skitch got his baton and crawled all the way across this sound stage behind Steve Allen, while Allen is standing up doing his monologue, and goosed him with his baton.
H: [laughter]
JH: And, of course, Allen goes straight up into the air. JH: You remember that high laugh that he had?
H: Right.
JH: Well...
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
JH: The camera didn't pick up what had happened. And Steve Allen handled it beautifully, but as you might know, a couple of nights later he got Skitch good. And it was something that I can't go into here on this tape because it was...it was Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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uproariously funny, but that's the way they did it in those days.
H: You can go into it on the tape.
JH: No. I just...
H: Not for family consumption. [laughter]
JH: No. [laughter]
H: Tell me, in your opinion, you've already said what fun it was, the original Landing there. What's your opinion of the third Landing? Where they've done well financially, they're in the tourist...heavy tourist flow. They're solvent, compared to the old days. How would you compare going to the Landing in 1995 to, say, twenty or thirty years ago? As a musician and as a fan.
JH: Well, Sterlin, we've all had quite a few more birthdays since the early days, but as a fan, as a student, I would say that the current Cullum band is, in most ways, the best band that he's ever had. Their repertoire is much larger. JH: music is still is as exciting, and they're experi-menting with, within the classical jazz framework, with other formats, with other approaches. Still, though, it doesn't go too far. Because they'll do a highly arranged Bix Beiderbeck-type tune with the musicians on their solos, on their "rides," as we say, being totally improvisational, but they'll stick to the head arrangement for the tune. As compared to the war horses, previously aforementioned, where it will be almost completely Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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spontaneous, except they've played the song so much they don't make the mistakes that amateur bands used to. So, in my opinion, cerebrally, intellectually, it's the best band that Jim's ever had, because they're all better than they ever were. I miss Alan Vache in a way, because he was such an exciting clarinet player. But I think the new clarinet player is...has...in musical terms, balances the band better. He has a sweeter tone and blends with the band to the extent that Alan Vache did not.
H: Alan would skate the edge. He was a devotee of Kenny Davern's clarinet playing...
JH: Right.
H: ...and sometimes he'd fall off the edge.
JH: That's right.
H: I believe he was an enormous fireworks,...
JH: Yeah.
H: ...technical player.
JH: Just hold on to your seat.
JH: You mentioned Alan, and Alan was never really happy in whatever he was doing. It was never quite satisfactory. But Jimmy tells me Alan calls him just almost daily wishing he were back in San Antonio.
JH: Well, I'm sure Alan does, because he was young, he was still experimenting, as you pointed out. And when I saw him in San Diego a few months ago I, just told him that he just blew circles around the rest of the players there.Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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H: Um.
JH: And he said, "Man, that's what I do." He said, "I know that." I mean he wasn't complimenting himself, he just said, "That's what I do, that's the way I play." I mean, it was just a statement of fact. So...
H: Uh-huh.
JH: I'm sure that this is a much more comfortable life for him, because I think he's just taking jobs wherever he can get them, part-time.
H: Well, you were, as we covered, intimately involved with the Cullum band, what about the other bands? Other players in town? Over the last thirty-some-odd years. Some that particularly impressed you or you remember?
JH: Well, you know, I don't keep up with it, Sterlin. But I can tell you, there are some wonderful musicians in this town.
H: Um.
JH: And unfortunately there was only one pulpit, platform, for them to play this kind of music. But you start back in the days when...I guess Dude Skiles was a heck of a swing player. And I think there were some great sidemen out there with Shadowland - the big band fellow that's been going since the end of World War II.
H: Oh, yeah, yeah.
JH: Well, I can't even think right now. But more than that, there are some wonderful Hispanic players in town that play Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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jazz, and play it very well. There's some people that have come in via the Air Force and have retired here that are great players. Some of them play when Jim is travelling down there. There've been other classic bands like The Alamo City Jazz Band...
H: Chuck Reilly.
JH: Chuck Reilly's group. And they always laid down the beat and played good, happy music. But I think they were the epitome of people who loved the music and did other things. They just got together for fun.
H: That's right. Chuck Reilly's a dentist.
JH: Right.
H: And last several years, I think his band has been playing more out-of-town gigs than in-town. He's never really had a home in San Antonio, except when he'd sub in at the Landing.
JH: Right. Jim is very eclectic in his...and he helps JH: other musicians, you know. He wants to get them work, get them jobs, but always within the framework of what he does, and that kind of music. And the names of some of these people escapes me, but there are three or four excellent jazz trumpet players, cornet players, in San Antonio. I just can't come up with their names at the moment.
H: Well, Cullum Offer, the tenor sax man, came back to Boerne. Doesn't he live around Boerne?
JH: Yeah.Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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H: Major league player...
JH: Right.
H: ...four years in New York.
JH: And you remember Herb Hall has played with them. And Herb in his salad days was really a fine clarinet player. And really reflected the Black blues...
H: He was a genuine New Orleans type of...
JH: He was.
H: ...played the old Albert System clarinet.
JH: Old Albert System?
H: Broad vibrato.
JH: That's right.
H: [inaudible]
JH: And the Caceres brothers, for example.
H: Yeah. Ernie and Emilio.
JH: That's right. And I remember Ernie Caceres when I was JH: just a kid. I listened to Ernie playing with a lot of the Condon bands in New York; and Emilio I heard here, of course.
H: Ernie played with Glenn Miller.
JH: Yeah. And, you know Jim Sr., played as good a baritone and bass sax as anybody that I've heard. The guy, current-ly - and this is going off on a tangent - who is, I just heard last week, is the best baritone sax player, I think, extant now, is Vince Giardano, a player in New York. He plays around with his Night Hawk Band. And he has a big jazz band, and plays Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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a lot of the Bix, Paul Whiteman stuff.
H: So he does some of the old bass sax bits, I guess.
JH: He's just wonderful. And he's been down here quite often with Jim, playing on the Public Radio broadcasts.
H: Yeah, I've heard him on those.
JH: Yeah, Vince is a fine person. So, Jim has maintained a relationship with the really good jazz musicians in the so-called meccas.
H: Uh-huh.
JH: Banu Gibson in New Orleans, Vince and others in New York, West Coast and so on.
H: There just aren't as many places to play as there used to be.
JH: No.
H: New Orleans, some of the old famous jazz clubs are now doing rock.
JH: Yeah, that's right.
H: They have...I was there fifteen years ago and all the clubs had just cut from seven to five pieces.
JH: I'll give you an example of the kind of person Jim is. Even though we've been friends since the beginning of his music career, but this is something he didn't have to do. When my oldest son was married in New Orleans, he said, "Man, you can't go to New Orleans without having a parade!" And I said, "What do you mean?" And he said, "Well, I mean, it's just done." Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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Of course, all the bridal party was staying at the Royal Orleans. Jim went over there two months ahead of time, got all the parade permits, talked to the police, got all of Pete Fountain's and Al Hertz's sidemen, and organized this parade. And Saturday of the day of the wedding, they were married in a little Episcopal church in the Garden District, but the whole group of us from San Antonio were staying right downtown. Left the lobby of Royal Orleans at high noon, with plenty of Bloody Marys and so-on in tow. My mother-in-law, Roxanna Catto, was the queen of the parade. She was in a wheelchair with the people dancing around her and throwing beads and stuff like... We went all through the French Quarter and ended up at a little ole church, deconsecrated, of course, for lunch. It was about an hour's parade. And we had half of New Orleans following us, I can tell you. We're on every VCR, I'm sure, that of all the tourists that were in town that day.
H: Wonderful. Yeah.
JH: But it was one of the most exhilarating experiences, a beautiful day in New Orleans in May. It was absolutely perfect. And these guys, there's a very, very distinctive beat that people have used in New Orleans forever for these parades. And so everybody just has to march. I mean, it's just something that makes you feel so good. Jim organized all that, came over the day of the wedding, got everything together and we had this wonderful thing. Musician story - but this very fine, funny, Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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well-educated, Black sousaphone player was part of the band that Jim had asked to come in. And this fellow walked in the lobby of the Royal Orleans and he had half of his sousaphone over shoulder and he was carrying the bell, and he weighs about three hundred and fifty pounds. Anyways, he was sweating a little bit, and one of the guests at our wedding stopped him and said something to the effect, "My good man, are you part of the band?" And this fellow, affecting an accent, he said, "Oh, no...yes, suh," He said, "But you know I just walks around New Orleans carrying this plumbing over my shoulder." He said, "But I'll go play with them, suh, I'll go play with them."
H: [laughter]
JH: Of course, he was winking at me, and putting me on, the whole time. And this friend of mine was mortified, because he was just trying to be nice. [laughter] But this guy got H: him good!
H: [laughter]
JH: We had a lot of fun. But that's Jim for you. That's the kind of things he'll do.
H: He seems to have warmed up a lot.
JH: He's not as tight. Jim has a very advanced sense of humor. He is a musician's musician in many ways. And as you pointed out earlier, he's a great businessman. And he's constantly promoting his music. And as you might know, these Public Radio Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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broadcasts have been a real struggle, financially. And if it hadn't been for Dr. George Rouse, from New York, who got a couple of his foundations to fund, basically, these Public Radio broadcasts, they wouldn't have taken place. And then USAA jumped in. General McDermott has been very generous.
H: But that all runs out at the end of this year.
JH: That's right.
H: [Inaudible]...and it's been what? Three years?
JH: Oh, it's been...going into the fifth year, Sterlin.
H: And Jimmy told me once that those...each broadcast costs about fifty thousand dollars,...
JH: Yeah.
H: ...by the time you bring in the talent, bring in the engineers, and all that.
JH: We've got them down, using some local talent, that is technicians, down to about thirty-five and by combining JH: certain of the talents that we need. But it's very expensive.
H: And he's also been combing broadcasts. The last session that I attended, they did one and a half programs one night and one and a half the next night.
JH: Right.
H: That cuts costs. Is there anything we haven't covered you'd like to talked about, Jim?
JH: Oh, Sterlin, you know, as with all musicians, you could Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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go on and on. I think that it's a unique heritage that Jim and his family and some of us have established, in and for San Antonio. I'm particularly proud of what he's done with the Public Radio broadcast, because when it's all said and done, that will be a live, living, in-the-can, as they say, history of jazz, as seen from the perspective of not only the older jazz musicians in the United States who've been guest artists, but some of the younger ones who are emu-lating these people, and going beyond what they did. And when it's all done, it's going to be a wonderful resource, historical resource.
H: Right. And plus, it's been reaching more than a hun-dred stations, including quite a few out of the country, abroad.
JH: Yeah, Sterlin, I think it's beyond a hundred and fifty public radio stations.
H: Just as a person, I was really pleased Jimmy used some of my interviews, from the early part of this series we're doing now, and produced a program...
JH: Oh, he did?
H: ...with Don Albert.
JH: Oh, great!
H: And some of the other local bands: The Boots and His Buddies and Troy Floyd, and all of that. He got a NPR program. He was over at the Institute, where this will wind up, listening to tapes, and checking transcripts.
JH: Well, that's so great. Because...Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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H: And now this will be available to other people through him.
JH: Yeah. Well, it's a remarkable... Of course, Jim is still a relatively young man, and so I feel that we're going to have this resource as long as the public will support it. And it's a very cyclical kind of a thing. But I believe that the Landing...I think Jim, if the Hyatt Regency said, "Well, we want to put something else in there," that Jim would open another club, probably on the river, someway or another. That's his commitment.
H: I thought of this earlier, and mention it now, is the River Walk getting overloaded and overcrowded?
JH: Well, that's a very good observation.
H: This to a man dating back when there was one restaurant and one basement jazz club.
JH: Yes. I honestly feel that the original group that JH: started through the Chamber of Commerce, the outline, the shape and form the River Walk would take, Cy Wagner was the architect who contributed the services. David Straus, Walter Mathis, Jimmy [inaudible],...me. In the early days getting people to try to, instead of turning their back on the river, try to develop their property for the river or sell it, we've come a long way.
H: People used to open buildings with the back to the river.
JH: That's right.Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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H: Yeah.
JH: To the point where, at one point there was a plan to pave, concrete the river up and use it as a vehicle or garbage pickup and so on. Can you imagine? The Conser-vation Society saved that. That's another story. HemisFair was a sparkplug that eventually led to greater investment. To answer your question directly, with success goes a new set of problems. I think the city should re-establish the River Walk Commission, which we had, as you know, for twenty-five years, as the guiding organization appointed by the council to directly deal with it. Because now it's involved with the Fine Arts Commission and Historical Review Commission. With the opening of the Left Bank - Hard Rock Cafe and others, Mad Dog's, Fat Tuesday's and pretty soon ...
H: Planet Hollywood.
JH: ...Planet Hollywood. We're getting more people, a different crowd, and the River's beginning to sink a little bit of its own weight. We need to deal with these crowds of people. Every night is a week-end now on the San Antonio River. It's just loaded. We must preserve the linear park quality - the seclusion, the twenty feet below, the River atmosphere that is cooler and more conducive to tourism. And we're going to have to figure out how to handle these people better.
H: Well, what are the opportunities of expanding or pushing the River Walk north and south and spreading it out some?Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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JH: Endless.
H: It's so concentrated. There've been people pushing that it should be expanded to the Museum of Art up on Jones Avenue.
JH: That's a plan. That's another plan on the shelf, which we've been working on for over twenty years.
H: But it's all so congested around the River Bend now.
JH: Yes. We, of course - overworked phrase - "Don't want to kill the goose that laid the golden egg". So whatever we do has to be done on a very high quality basis. Meaning the construction has to be first-rate, similar to that when they moved the River Walk into the HemisFair Arena area, the Convention Center. And each expansion of the river has to be done in that way, along with decent development.
H: And the greenery, and the cool.
JH: The greenery and the cool is so important, the park idea. We must maintain that atmosphere or we've lost it. And that's why there are even sight lines now, done on computer, the architects in San Antonio have determined the sun angles, and that's why anybody that's going to build a high-rise structure has to set it back from the River so as to preserve the growing season, and all of that has to be maintained, Sterlin. And, you know, I guess it's partly what we've learned from the Disney organization - if you keep it clean and keep it inviting, then you'll continue to prosper.
H: Thanks Jim, I appreciate your time.Jim Hayne (Tape 1 of 1)
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JH: It's always good to be with you, Sterlin.
H: Good interview.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.