INTERVIEW WITH:
INTERVIEWER:
DATE:
PLACE:
INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
Adolph C.Herrera
Gilbert R. Cruz
March 13, 1985
San Antonio Missions National Historical Park
C: Good afternoon , Mr. Adolpho Herrera. How are you today?
The National Park Service wants to thank you for taking the
time to be with us today, and to share with us your many
impressions about the past, your understanding of the history
of this part of the land; and , also, your willingness to be
with us in order that we can record it and keep it for the
benefit of the park and for the people of South Texas.
Thi s afternoon , Mr. Herrera , we would like to begin
by asking you to give us some comments about your early life;
that is, your place of birth, your parents, where you went to
school and some of the things that were of special interest
to you when you were a growing boy.
Now, we are recorded in English, Mr. Herrera, because
it is easier for the typist to put this onto paper so that we
can later all read it; however, if there are names of persons
and places that can best be described in Spanish, please free
to do so.
First of all , tell us something about your early life,
Mr. Herrera?
H: I was born here in San Antonio on the corner of
Nogalitos and Burbank Streets.
HERRERA 2
C: On Nogalitos Street.
H: Right as you pass the underpass.
C: You mean close to St. Henry ' s Church?
H: Yes, through there; and a lot of my family still live
there. And that's where I was born . And after I was a few,
maybe a couple of years or so old, then we moved to a ranch
out in the country .
C: On what day were you born? And what year?
H: I was born on January the 17th, 1913 .
C: You are a very young- looking man .
H: Ha. Ha. I 'm 72- -in January I was 72 years old.
C: Gee, that ' s wonderful! You certainly seem t o be very
alert.
Tell us something, when you moved t o the ranch, where
was the ranch located?
H: It was loca ted--what they call the--that was the old
Farm/the old Ranch that belonged to my ancestrrgs on the
Somerset Road- - El Comino Real: the original Camino Real from
San Antonio to Mexico .
los Herrera y Ruiz.
C: By way of Laredo?
It was called Medina , El Rancho de
H: By way of La redo . They called it the Camino ~ Laredo .
That was the old Camino Real . Then they made a lot of other
roads, you know. But that was the original crossing.
Later on, they changed it t o Paso de las Garzas .
C: Paso de l as Ga rzas .
H: when one of my grandpa ' s sisters married
De la Garza.
HERRERA 3
C: This is very interesting. We want to take that up.
But l et me go back real quickly. Tell us who your
parents were? Your father and your mother?
H: My father was named Adolpho Herrera.
C: Where was he from? Can you tell us a little bit about
him?
H: He was born right there on the Farm, the same way.
And my mother was Josefa Casias. The Casias were a lso
old families .
C: They both lived off of Somerset Road on t he
Camino Real to Laredo ?
H: Yes. My mother lived a little further south--before
she married.
C: Do you have any brothers or sisters, Mr. Herrera?
H: I've got only one sister.
C: There were only two of you?
H: Just two of us.
I : What i s your sister 's name?
H: Her name is Sofia. She married a fella by the name
of Erwin Langevin.
My sister and I lived on the ranch until we started
school. We moved to town approximately in about nineteen
twenty-eight--twenty-seven or t wenty-eight . I went to school
at Medina School. You see that Medina--any time you hear
Medina, that meant that crossing there. That's what they
called Medina--the Herreras, you see: from Castroville down
HERRERA 4
H: to--way down to Losoya, and all that . That was what
they called Medina.
A lot of people get it mixed up now . They say Medina
was where Losoya-- over there, but that was Medina. All the
records--old records -- show Medina.
My mother was from over there; and my father was from
there, too .
C: Now , tell us about the certain pass located there- -
what did you call the pass?
H: El Paso de las Garzas .
C: Paso de las Garzas . Why did they call it Paso de
las Garzas?
H: For the reason that it was near the De la Garza Ranch .
My grandfather's sister, Josefa , married Miguel De la Garza ;
the pass also used to be the old crossing--you know , on the
Camino Real--the main crossing on the road to Mexico.
C: Yes .
H: And our family had that land since a l i ttle after 1743--
you know a little after that--the Herreras were using that
land. But during the Revolutionary turmoil, the Ruiz family
obtained title to the land . But Blas Herrera married
Maria Antonia Ruiz . That is how the Herrera family obtained
land once more . Later , Jose Maria Herrera, the son of Blas ,
married Josepha Perez. That is how the Perez are related
to us.
C: Is this on your mother ' s or your father ' s side?
H: My father ' s side .
HERRERA 5
C : Your fa ther's side. What was your grandf ather' s
name on your fa the r' s s ide?
H: Jos ~ Maria Herrera.
C: J os' Maria Herrera.
H: Uh huh.
C: Now was Jos~ Mar i a Herrera marr i ed to the Ruizes? Or?
H: No, Jose Maria Herrera was married to the Perez.
C: Oh , well, they are also a family that goes way back ,
too, don 't they?
H: Jose was marr ied t o the owners--what used to be the
Spanish Governor' s Pal ace .
C: That' s right: Governor Perez.
H: Governor Perez , yes .
C: That ' s wonderful .
H : You see , one of them was in the Rangers and some of
them were in the Immigra tion, and Jesse Perez , Chico , the
young one and the father ; and Romaldo Perez--o f them .
C: This is much later?
H: Yes.
C: O.K.
H: Well , t hat ' s .
C: That's the line of Perez.
H: The same f amily.
C: How did the Ruiz~mar ry i nto the Herre ras?
H: The Ruiz marr i ed Herrera because my family, the
Herreras, were s ent here by the King, Charles the Third.
He sent Diego , Diego Herrera , and he l anded in Espinto Santo
HERRERA
C: Off the East Texas Coast? .. La Bahia?
H: That's what they call--now they call it Goliad or
something like that.
C: Right .
H: All right. He landed here with five sons and two
daughters and he came directly to San Antonio .. Bexar ..
to the Alamo.
C: What year was this?
H: That's 1743.It took me a long time to trace that be­cause
, when he left over there, he left with him and his
wife, five sons and two daughters.
C: He left from where? From Mexico?
H: From Spain.
C: Spain. You don't remember from what part of Spain?
H: Well, Santander was the Old Province ...
C: Oh, the medieval city of Santander .
H: And then from there, they came to the Canarias.The
Herrera family were among the ones that took over the Can­ary
Islands for the King of Spain. The records show this
way back there.
C: Yes.
H: So the Herreras came from Santander.
C: They came to the Canary Is l ands.
H: From Santander. And from there,over to Texas .They
landed over there and came here . And Benito was one of the
sons of Diego. Benito had a son by the name of BIas.
BIas Herrera.
6
HERRERA 7
C: Blas Herrera.
H: Bla s was the one that married t he Colonel' s daugh ter ,
Maria Antonia Ruiz.
C: What was the Colonel ' s name?
H: / . . Jose F ranc ~ sco Ru~z.
c: Oh !
H: He was one of the signers .
c: Yes , I know. H.. Only Jose' Fr a ncisco Ruiz and Jose' Anton i o
Navarro were selected from Bexar. They were the only two
native Texans tha t signed t he Texas Dec l aration of
Independence . / .
The old man , Jose F ranc~sc o , was the uncle
and J ose' Antonio Navarro was hi s nephew, that is , J oser
Franc i sco ' s sister ' s son. They were the only two natives .
The rest of them were al l f oreigners . So that is how Blas
He rrera comes into the family line, i n so far as the Ruiz
fami l y i s concerned .
c: All right. So does that make Blas Herre ra your
great-grandfather?
H: Yes, my great-grandfather .
c: Well, fine now , tell us about t he ranch .
H: Well , it was Blas. Blas , married Maria Antonio Ruiz,
the daughter o f the Colonel . She ' s the one--I have the
p i c ture there in the Barracks at the Alamo . That 's the oil
painting there, my grandmother . All right.
They had, I think, around n ine c hildren. One of them
was Jose Maria--he was my grandfather . He was here, too .
My grandfather , Jose Maria , had Ado lf . And then Adolf had me,
and my sister .
HERRERA 8
c: From whom of your grandfathers did you pick up so
much history about Texas during the Spanish period? What was
the name of the grandfather that taught you so many of these
things?
H: Well , the one (Jos: Maria Herrera) almost raised me.
That was because my father , when I was eleven months old ,
got killed working for the railroad. And the railroad line
told him that he had just gotten sick--and he wasn ' t--he
was working and they were having trouble with the pile drivers-­you
know , the bridges , the railr~d that went to Atascosa?
And he went up there and they didn ' t set the foundation
right and that thing fel l and he fell .
C: Oh!
H: . and hurt himself . He got sick and they brought him
in and left him by my grandmother's house. You know, they
live right there by that r ailroad in Somerset. They told
her that he just got sick. But five or six months later, one
of the men that was working over there that knew him stopped by
and as ked him how he was doing . And he--you know , when he got
hurt. Well , they t o ld her that he got hurt- - they had said
that he got sick.
C: What year was this?
H: In around, well, he died when I was one--eleven months
old--and I was born in January-- it must have been the last of
'13.
C: The last of 1913 ? What railroad was he working for?
HERRERA
H: I don 't know. But what's the name of the railroad
that went to ... you know, the one that went to .. like
towards Laredo? The one that cuts to t he left.
c: The Union Pacific Railroad i s the transportation
company that is now going to Laredo. Perhaps that is the
one to which you refer.
H; I don't know .. they were left without nothing . So
then, later on , we moved from Somerset to San Antonio.
No, no, we moved .. then we moved to the country with my
grandfather. You know, while I was a little baby I lived
here with ...
C: You mean San ANtonio?
H: Yes, right here in San Antonio when I was a little
baby. But when I was about two years old , is when we
moved to the ranch with my grandfather. We had two houses
there.
C: How many acres did your grandfather have?
H: Let's see, when I .. actually, was a little kid, he
had only about 250 or something like that. But they had
already divided ... you know.
C: Uh hUh.
H: But they owned, I don't know how many acres . How
much l and . All over . I' ve got records where they were
given during the time that they issued land for them.
But what he had left, you know when I was old enough, he
had, there was 100 ... , when they d i vided the o ld, the
tract that they had there, you know.
9.
C: He divided it among his children, is that what he did?
H: Yes. C: O.K.
HERRERA 10
H: Blas and Maria Antonia, who was the daughter of the
Colonel , when she divided that for her nine children.
C: Oh, o. K.
H: ... and it came to approximately about 128 a piece.
The rest of the land they had already re- divided-- during the
Revolution--you know what happened--t hey scattered everything.
C : Oh .
H: So they had to re- survey it. They had been there since
1 743-45, or 48 --between 43 and 48, or something like that ,
our family , the Herreras , were still there. And the Ruiz
came in, then l ater on they moved over there too , and that
is when they started getting land--before 1836. After the
Revolution i~838 , they re- surveyed it again. And Blas got
a number of tracts , at least 1 ,1 52 acres . Bias and his wife
obtained it.
I ' ve got the papers, you know: the drawings and the
map and everything of how it was and how they divided it and
what names , what names were there .
C: So what was the name of the --he was your grandfather
Blas who told you all these interesting stories ?
H: / .
No , Jose Mar~a.
C: f
/ .
Your grand ather , Jose Mar~a.
H: Jose Maria , yes , that was my father's father . He was
the one that raised--we went to live up there . Because in
that place there , there were two houses: one was built about
the Forties and the other one was built before , or something
l ike that , one is a l ittle older than the other one .
HERRERA 11
H: The one in the back was five years older than the
one that I have there now .
C: Was it grandfather Jose/ Maria that told you about the
time that the Spaniards came and put down the rebellion when
they encountered the insurgents on the Medina River?*
H: Oh, yes. Our family had all the history .
C: What were some of the things that he t old you about that?
H: He told me that while he wasn ' t there.
his grandfather was the one that was there, you know , Jose
Francisco (Ruiz).
C: Jose Francisco .
H: And the one that was running, and Jose Francisco ' s son,
Francisco Antonio- - the brother of Maria Antonia--the one that
married Blas . See? Franc isco Antonio Ruiz, the Colonel, had
two children: Francisco Antonio and Maria Antonia. Later,
in 1836, Francisco Antonio was the Mayor here when Santa Anna
occurpied the town.
C: That 's right .
*Medina River, Battle of the. The battle of the
Medina River was f ought on August 18, 1813, between the
forces of the Gutierrez-Magee Expedition under
Jose Alvarez de Toledo, who had succeeded to the command
of Jose Bernardo Gutierrez de Lara, and a Spanish royalist
force under Joaquin de Arrendono. Toledo's 1,400 men ,
in one Mexican and one American division were lured into an
ambush by Ignac i o Elizondo, who had the Spanish forces on
the west bank of the Medina. In a battle which lasted
several hours the Americans were defeated, a nd some
three hundred survivors fled towards Louisana .
Source: The Handbook of Texas (1796) Vol. 2 p. 169
HERRERA 12
H: See , wel l Santa Anna ' s troops went in right through
the arroyo, San Pedro Creek. They came across there and
placed the Mayor in house arrest .
/ So Jose Mar ia , my grandfa ther, used to tell me, when
my s i ster and I we r e studying a little bit of Texas hist o r y ,
and we ' d s it there by the chimney and start reading the Texas
history books that we had then. He would listen to us and
all of a sudden , he'd jump up this high of f his chair, and
he ' d say , "Where did you get that? I nformation?"
"Well, that's what i t says here right here in the book. "
He says , "Well that ' s not right ! And they are not
supposed t o be showing the children--you know--telling them
certain history t hat you know is not correct . You t ell them
that all o f this is lie s. You tel l the teacher that that's
lies--not to be teaching the children lies . It was so-and- so ,
and so- and-so . "
And I said, "Well, grandpa, we have t o go by . "
I was little, you see .
C: Yes , I understand.
H: So, (laughing) he used t o get mad. And I told him
I can ' t tell them anyttllng;· . By that time the t eache r
changed the spelling of my name . Instead of put ting Adolpho,
she put Adolph , spelled A-D-O-L-P- H. And I, in order to get
through school, went t o Hawthorne Junior School, with my name
Adolph written on my grade card . I went through Main Avenue
High School as Adolph . When I went into the service ,
I was t old it couldn't be Ado~ph : looking at my papers , they
would say Ado lfQ. So they got me over there and they
HERRERA 13
H: told me, "You 'll have to change that, and this and that,
and the other thing." "Well," I said , "I am going t o change
it to Adolf G." He said, "No , you change it and put Adolph
like it is; go over to the Courthous e ." And they brought
me over again and told me where I had to go.
Then I have to go and sign some papers and officially,
they changed it from Adolfoto Adolph. Then when I went into
the city , the same thing, you know. They wanted it that way .
So, my name is English now, it is in English now: Adolph.
C: It, at times, appears amusing what people did with
our names.
H: (Laughing) It's not Adolf? And so that's the way.
And grandfather used to get mad. So he used to go into his
trunks. You see, his s ister, De la Garza, and his mother
used t o keep records o f anything that happened. I don't care
what would have happened here in Bexar County, whether it was
from religion , whether it was f rom the government , you know,
about the government or anything; because all my family were
the founders here and they all had something to do. Like Bias,
/ I mean Jose Francisco was the first teacher! You know, the
first school! They still have his house there in the
Witte Museum. Do you know the Ruiz house there? Well,
they moved it from Do lorosa .
C: I never knew that the home was prese rved.
/ H: I'm talking about the house of Jose Francisco Ruiz.
C: You mean, it is at the Witte Museum now?
HERRERA 14
H: Yes, it's in the back there; they took it off from
the place where the City Hall Annex is now. You know where
the City Hall Annex is? It used to be the Water Works and
now it's where you pay your taxes for the City.*
C: Yes.
H: Don't go by the plaque that is on the house because
they put the wrong date of birth of J ose Francisco Ruiz.
They have put his brother's date of birth. I've have been
on them . for I don't know how long. I told Mr. Frazier
about it, but he never has changed it. So they are doing it
wrong
C: Well, what is it that you thought that they did wrong?
What's wrong on the plaque?
/
H: It just i sn 't the date when Jose Francisco Ruiz was born.
If you go up there, you will notice the plaque and it says,
"1783." That was his brother, see? So, you can't tell them
anything . You see it took me about two years to try to
prove it to them and show them, and show them; finally,
I got the Alamo and I got the other different areas to change
all of that. And, finally, they got it in books. But still
you find it in a l ot of the old books. They still have that
marker there. Jose' Francisco Ruiz died at sixty-one.
*The location Mr. Herrera is talking about appears
to be: 506 Dolorosa Street . The Water Board and the
City of San Antoni o shared a common warehouse at this site
until October, 1982, when it became City Hall Annex. GRC.
HERRERA
H: Another thing that they had wrong: he is buried
in the Cathedral.
C: Who . is that? Jose?
H: In the San Fernando Cathedral.
C: Jose Francisco Ruiz.
H: Jos~Francisco Ruiz.
They have a tombstone that they put over there at
San Fernando Cementery. They say that he was buried in
Campo Santo. You know--where Milam Park is?
C: Milam Park , yes.
H: And that's not . so.
15
You see , they put him there. They say, well, from
there then when they made that a Plaza, you know, they
covered up all the stones and everything; but they moved
him--moved his bones over there to San Fernando Number One.
They don't know that he is buried right there.
I know, my grandfather was a kid. He used to come and
he used to bring, every so often , especially on his birthday-­you
know--when he died. He used to come to town from the
country . He used to go to the Plaza and buy--they used to
sell flowers, you know, in buckets. They had little buckets
like that with a litt l e water . And he'd go and buy one of
those at the Plaza and come over there and go inside the
church , turn to the right, and the altar , to the right;
and there was a little plaque there: Jose Francisco Ruiz.
You know, marble; a little thing; they took it out and I
don ' t know what they had done with it or anything.
HERRERA 16
H: And that ' s where he was buried . And t hey say t hat
he was buried over there . They sai d what they did over
there . But that ' s what he wanted ; so that ' s wha t they have done .
/ Like his --Jose Franc i sco ' s father and mo t her have the
wi l ls tha t they made , a nd she wanted to be buried in the
Al amo, at a cemetery, you know. There ' s a littl e cemetery
there , because some of the k i n folks , some died around that
period, you know. Some place around there, and she put s in
there that-- what do they call it? Valero- - that she wanted to
be buried there. It ' s on the will- -in Spanish . I got it
translated into English. And I have both , you know , his and hers .
And , so, you see , they said , "no ," that he wasn't
buried there and everybody t hat goes up t here-- years ago he
would go to the San Fernando Cathedral.
And you tell them to give you a b i rth cer tificate of
Pancho Lopez . I did go and tell them , we l l , the year 1780 or
somewhere in there- -19 - -or 1 810, or something like that.
They'd go out t here and they ' d find Pancho Lopez. He would
be the f i rst one that t hey would find ; somebody named
Pancho Lopez and they wou l d give i t to you . So you didn' t
know what you got . See?
So as a kid , you go up there , the next time I went up
there , t hey gave me another one . The next time I went up
there they gave me another one . The name Jose Francisco Ru i z--
Las Herreras -- jillions of them. Jose Francisco , Francisco
Antonio--so he was-- t hey called him Pancho , they called him
Francisco , they called him Jose(, or they called him
HERRERA 17
H: Antonio Ruiz and a ll that. You see, it depends on who
is talking to him and who knew him and who was going to call
him . But the church, the Father that was there, he didn ' t--
he just didn't care . He just went out there and the firs t
one that he found , he gave him that; and he'd tell him,
"Here's the baptismal certificate . They were wrong and
a lot of people swore on that , and they made books on that:
History . The history isn't r i ght.
c : But it had them--the names of his parents written
in the book , as well? They had the names of the parents of
/'
Jose Francisco?
H: Oh sure , who the parents were and who were the Padrinos
and everything else ; but those people , you can ' t tell them
anything. And they change who they want . And I got the
closest one, you know. I've got the records of the closest
to everything. After he died , I ' ve checked and re- checked ,
when he was born. I've got the birth certificate when he
was born--and I have two o r three of t hem before--everyone
, , / , . . was: Franc ~ sco Ru~z, or Jose Franc~sco, or Franc~sc o Anton~o .
And then you have to go-- I went by who , what year it
was , who was his Padrinos, you know , who bapt ized him when
he was born , and then when he got married , then when he died .
That ' s what I went by , you see?
C: Yes .
H: And that's t he way I got mine . I got mine , I've got
mine so I could get them as close as I could .
HERRERA 18
H: And the 1790 ' s was the closest one--and i t's a
difference of about a few months--they call it one year--
but if you pass from say sixty years in three months or say
five months--he was over sixty years old, so he was sixty- one.
C: Oh , I see.
H: You see how that worked . You see , in other words ,
he wasn't sixty anymore , he was past sixty- -so they put it ,
you were sixty- one . That' s the way they kept records . So you
can get one year difference , one way or the other . Like when
you were born , they put- - he was born at a certain date .
Or a lot of times , they give you t hat date when they
regi stered you . And sometimes , they put on there when you
were actually born , then when they registered you eight
days or nine days later, they baptized you so many days later;
and sometimes we get that criss- cross. The Priests have done
that two or three times with different papers that I went
over. They put on when he was recorded , when he was
baptized , they shifted it around and instead of putting it
here, they put it over here.
C: That ' s very interesting .
You said that your grandfather would tell you--used
to tell you something about some battles of some of the
Revolutions that went on .
Can you recall one or two tha~e was especially
\
found of telling you about?
H: Well, the one that he didn ' t like very much-- when
they whipped in behind .
END OF TAPE I
Side 1 30 minutes
HERRERA
BEGINNING OF TAPE I
Side 2 30 minutes
(Appears to be some l oss of the interview on the changing
of the tape)
c: Fine, Mr . Herrera , you have just told us that your
19
grandfather enjoyed t e l ling you about some of these battles ,
but there was one particularly that he was not too happy
about telling you--that was the Battle of Medina , which took
p l ace on August 18, 1813.
H: That is correct. Because many of our family members
had t o flee from Gene ral Arredondo and go to East Texas
or even as far as Louisiana .
C: Right. That is when the Spaniards came back to
San Antonio in order t o recapture San Antonio from the
Mexican Nationals who were fighting for Independence of Mexico .
So now, Genera l A·rrendondo shows up at the River Medina --
and Y que paso, Senor Herrera? Tell us?
H: Whipped the heck out of the patriots- -he killed ,
I do n ' t know how many of my k i nfolks and their friends.
General Arrendondo scattered them in every direction .
So my ancestors had to f lee with the families. The
Juan Martin de Veramendi and the Jos ~ Antonio Navarro
families also had to flee .
C: How long were your relativffi away from San Antonio?
Until . . . ?
H: About eight- -ten years , or something like that.
HERRRERA 20
C: They had to be away that l ong?
H: Well, a t l east it seems they did not come back until
after 1821 .
You see , but we don't know for sure .
C: Who do you mean by the old man?
/
H: Jose Francisco .
C: / . .
Oh , Jose Franc ~sco Ru~z .
H: Yes , he was one of the Texans who started the
Revolution of I ndependence from Spain.
C: Right.
H: You see, in other words , when they formed the
independence from Spain . Our family , we had many of of his
letters . Jos ~ Fr ancisco t o l d the people in Spain that he
was not fighting against his Mother Country , but opposed to
the take-over o f the Madrid Government by France. [1805]
C: That's right. You probably are referring to the time
when Napol eon Bonaparte placed his brother, Joseph Napoleon ,
at the head of the Spanish government about 1808.
H: So, and when they d i d--caused our families to leave ,
we resented it since we had been here for more than a
half a century , or something like that. We'd been here
a lready . And we had our customs and traditions and laws
and everything established. And we were supposed to be
free t o practice our religion and free of unjust taxation, and
a ll that; and then all of a sudden they start building up
taxes and all of that. And our families didn't believe in
that.
HERRERA 21
H: So, our f amilies got together--the whole bunch of them.
Since our families were doing all right along with the rest
of the peopl e that had come from Mexico, you know, from
New Spain, as it was once called. Texas and Mexico wasn't
all there was to New Spain. There was Mexico, San Luis,
and Mexico City--Nuevo Mexico and Arizona and all the
/ Southwest. So, Jose Fracisco Ruiz and the rest of the
families didn!t like t he invas i on of Texas by General
Arredondo.
And Jos/Francisco also helped to plan the Texas Revolt
against Spain. So then they started getting together and so--
at first, they kind of tried to keep it secret, you know.
But they got together and then when Hidalgo started his Revolt
in Dolores, you know, those in Texas also were sympathetic.
Because, it is the same cause.
The names of the other families included the
Navarros, Seguins, Perez and all of the others, you know, who
were the old-timers, going back to the Spanish Colonial Period.
C: Were the Perez, and the Ruiz, and the Seguins
all pretty good friends?
H: Todo el tiempo. They were like a family, you know.
They had their squabbles at different times but remember
that you can't have families without some squabbles. And
big families--you know, they had a l ot of family members.
Some of them didn't get along very well. Some did. But most
of them liked Blas , he was in the Company with Seguin when he
went out there .
HERRERA 22
C: The Battle of San Jacinto?
H: Yes , the Battl e o f San Jacinto . Even be fore that battle,
Bias was the one that went to the Rio Grande to scout the arrival
o f Santa Anna , at the time he crossed with his troops. Bias
left the whole bunch of his garrison including Indian Allies
over there , while he came back to inform the Texans . Every
time that the Mexican troops woul d stop a t night a nd all that,
Bias' men hit them . They shot at the horses and soldiers
and shot as many as they could ; and then they would retreat.
And he'd go further out and)at a distance/shoot some more.
By the time they came here, Santa Anna didn't have as many
soldiers as when he s t arted out with at the Rio Grande. And
when Bias came over there (San Antonio ) and he told the
Texans that Santa Anna's Army was coming and they were on the
way, the Texans told him to get the heck out of the Alamo .
And all that
They said, "No . " At that time, they didn ' t pay
any attention to a Mexican-born Texan . You know at that time ,
they didn ' t want to bother with them . So he said, "The Heck .
with it "
Seguin went--and him--and other ones--he sent them to
notify Houston- - went and told Houston about it .
C: You mentioned earlier that your grandfather spoke to
you about some branding irons and that he had a whole list
and diagrams of the different branding irons that were used
in the Missions and the ranches nearby.
H: Yes, he
HERRERA 23
c: This i s your grandfather? J
ose/ . Mar~a Herrera.
H: Yes, my grandfather. had . He was the one that
had them; because he had a ll the records of old .
You know, his mother, Maria Antonia, she was what you'd cal l
one of those
c: One of those what?
H: She was the one that bought the land.
She turned around and came back and paid for it;
she bought it. In other words: from her brother, Francisco
Antonio Ruiz. So that it was hers then--and later on , also ,
BIas, who married her. You see? From Francisco , because
Francisco's land was based on the: F. A. Ruiz Survey,
the tract of land that I am talking to you about.
That was made out, surveyed and all that--for Francisco
Antonio Ruiz. That was her brother--where they had to recall.
C: So the sister of Francisco Antonio Ruiz was then quite
a ranch woman herself.
H: I mean--she had nine kids and she was the daughter of
the big Papa, Jost Fr ancisco Ruiz, and I mean they respected
her because she was rough. She had--the old man had tracts
of land in Houston . I don't know how many--nine or ten square
miles--and al l over--tracts of l and allover.
And they used to have trouble--you know, because they would
have to go every year-- t hey would send some one with money
to go and pay the t axes--different places in the State.
/ .
C: Well, tell me, was that your grandfather, Jose Mar~a
that told you about the branding irons?
HERRERA 24
H: Oh yes , he had them , he showed them to me.
C: How long ago was this?
H: Oh , it must have been-- I was about--let ' s see (pause )
--twenty- -right around-- I was about twe l ve or fif teen -or some--­thi
ng like t hat-- fo urteen years old , something like that.
I don 't know--around a little-- let ' s say thirteen or seven-­seven--
I started s choo l--no , I was twenty--between 1925 and
r ight around that area there. That ' s about t he time because
we moved to t own t o go to school in nineteen twent y- n i ne ,
I think , or t wenty- eight .
C: Whatever happened to those illustraions that your
grandfather showed you of the Mission brands?
H: Well , I--he had them in the trunk , but then I had
t hem wi th some other papers , too .
C: Oh , he gave them to you?
H: He gave me some of the t hings--not all of t hem . But
he gave me a lot of them and other ones stayed in the trunks .
You know , he had one--kind of l i t t l e o l d--you know , and
about t hat big and that wide (shows size ). And , when we
moved , when we moved , we put t hem i n a little s t oreroom that
we had i n the barn .
C: Where was this?
H: Right at our p l ace t here .
C: Out at the ranch out there near Somerset?
H: Yes , where we had-- I ' d tell you--those gates . You
see , these are the other ones--the ot her two--t here were two
other sets . You see we had--this was -- t he set that I have
HERRERA
H: there is one of the ones that had in front there.
The other two were about the same thing, but they were i n
better shape. They were ins i de. They used to put them-­t
hey ' d put a little peg and they ' d put them down on the
floor - -of the barn .
c: Are you talking about the doors now?
H: The big doors.
C: O. K. , you're tal king about what might possibly be
Mission doors.
H: Yes .
25
C: O. K. , what Mission doors and when do you think these
doors were taken from the Mission?
H: I don ' t know . To tel l you the truth , I ' ve never ..
C: What makes you think that they belong to t he Missions?
H: I never did know that they belonged to the Missions .
I thought they belonged to the ranch there at first.
C: Where did you get the impression that they belonged
to the Missions?
H: From Staff members from the Center for Archeological
Resear ch , University of Texas at San Antonio , while they
were working on Applewhite Reservoi r Survey . (Applewhite
II) It included Kay Hindes from Charlotte and other ones
(A. McGraw) that are working for the University .
They surveyed the Medina River for the dam o r something .
They have something to do with--checking the cemet eries
and all that . They were the ones that saw the doors there .
C: Oh , they saw them there.
HERRERA 26
H: I had taken them out because my daughter was going
to build a house a few years back .
The archeology people wanted me to show them where
the church was--our church--you see we had our own family
church and cemetery and our houses . I still have those
houses there, you see . I asked what they thought about them.
They said there are no more built that way. And they wanted
to see how they were constructed. They were working for
that-- I took them out there and I showed them where the
chimney was from Blas'--the old house. And , then showed
them where my grandfather, you know, lived ; and the houses
that his mother made f or him when they were babies, you know,
and all of that . Then she saw them there.
She d idn't tell me right away--till l a t er she said
something and started c hecking and finally she said they
found out about those things . But I didn't have any idea
because we used them--you see--inside the barn, they
didn't have floors. In our barns, we didn't have floors .
A barn was long and i t had one- third of it here, one
section , that's what we used for grain and all of that; and
the rest of it was for hay and big things. So we used--we 'd
throw a little hay in the bottom, in the dirt, and then
set those great big--great big--I f igured , you know,
you a l ways throw something, you know, to keep it from
getting--the grain from getting wet .
HERRERA 27
H: Put those in the re and put a little grass in the re
a nd you put your bales of hay or cotton or whatever it was
on t op of that . You don't even see them.
e: So you rested your hay on top of those o l d doors?
Is that it?
H: Oh , they were there for I don't know how long. And
then when I tore down , i s when I got them out , and then I
put them under sheds--but what happened--some of those
people that I have over there , they went and got them.
They wanted firewood and instead of buying or chopping wood ,
they burned some of the old doors.
e: They burned that?
H: They used them for wood .
I remember one port er--because I saw one , you see--
those gates were: they were one , two, three sets . lIve
only got one and the ones that I ' ve got are the ones that
were patched up . The ones that are there; the other ones :.they
burned them already or t hrew them away .
e : All r i ght.
H: So, and then the other ones in the little shed , there
was doors the same height but they were small, and they
were that t hick (indicated how thick) about two and a half
inches--not as thick as these other ones. These o t her ones
were about l ike that (indicated how thick) about f our by
e ight, and these were smaller . You know , they were that thick
and about that wi de . These were for "walk- i n " doors ,
HERRERA 28
H: you know. I had two . The same way--no hinges , they
just fold. I had two sets of those and that's what we used
in that smaller part of the . . they burned those , too .
c: You know how our Missions look? You know how
San Francisco de Espada Mission looks? San Juan? .
H: I haven ' t been there in so long , to tell you the truth .
,
C: . San Jose?
H: I haven't been out there to see the Missions in so
;-
long that I wouldn't know . All I know that here at San Jose ,
you know where they built the new building in the back there?
H: Do you possibly mean the present Franciscan Friary?
H: To the left, northeast, or whatever it is? That used
/
to be Jose Francisco Ruiz ' property there. That was his
property.
c: Right there at the end of the Mission of San Jos ~?
H: Right . Right next to the Mission. Right next to--
I don ' t know if you have records or not.
c : Well, there is a place where the Friary is on the
--that's on the northeast corner, and then there's another one
over on the northwest corner. The northwest corner outside
the Mission walls is the Harris House and the other on
the Northeast corner outside the walls is the Friary.
H: Well , this one is right next to the Mission grounds
in the northeast corner.
The Priests' house.
HERRERA 29
C: Well , that's on the northeast corner .
H: That's the one I'm talking about. The big one here.
C: O.K.
H: Well, if you check on the records, you will find out
that was Jos~Francisco's property .
C: Did he ever live there?
H: Yes.
C: He lived there.
H: Off and on, you know.
C: Off and on.
H: Yes, but he didn 't stay there very long in one place.
But he stayed there for aWhile.* (See footnote)
C: Well, tell me. You were going to show me some books
or something on the branding irons. Do you want to show me
what you have in your folder here?
(Pause to get out material)
H: Well, they wanted to find out about those .
You see this one is the Al amo.
C: O.K. So you say that this one here that looked like
an A and an R next to each other is the Alamo branding iron,
and you say it goes back to May the 26th .
H: 1 81 2 .
*The Mission Records , 83-93, Registry of Land Grants,
Irrigation Right, s, and Assessed Fees and Payments at
Mission San Jose, 1824, Bexar Archives, San Antonio , indicate
that a Francisco Ruiz and a Jose Maria Ruiz both paid fees for
irrigation rig~s to lands (Dulas) near San Jos~Mission.
But it does not indicate where the lands are located.
See: Felix Almaraz, Land Tenure Study, San Antonio Missions
National Historical Park, 1982. GRC
HERRERA 30
C: 1812 .
H: That ' s when it was recorded in Bexar County (Bejar
County). Now they say they don't have those records anymore .
But it's been--it was recorded at that time .
C: How do you know that this is the way it looked like--
with the name and al l ?
H: Because my grandfather told me about that , and I didn ' t - -
I wasn't sure about it. (Pause) I wasn ' t sure . But I checked
and found--you see here? This is the Mission Espada .
C: Yes.
H: And that was first~-January the 12th , 1778.
C : O . K.
So the one Mission Espada looked like a capital M
with a little cross upside down in the middle .
H: Upside down--yes, a little outfit .
And now here ' s the other one , you see , the Alamo ,
look at this one, 1812 .
C : O.K .
H: All right . But I wasn ' t sure about that because grandpa
had like a book and in that book he had all the brands that
they used out there , like there. Now this one I still have it ,
Antonio de la Garza. You know, the one who married--from
the family- -he married over there--I still have that . I still
have the-- I think I have this one. And I might have, I don't
know how many of the other ones I ' ve got . But (paging through
/ papers) I ' ve got the missions and Jose Maria--that ' s our
grandpa. Jose" Mar~. a . I think I've got that one , too.
HERRERA 31
H: And these, you see that? Now this is the one that
I'm checking it because I've seen that i n , I don 't know how
many of grandpa's papers, and I wanted to--been try ing t o
get that .
Now this one was here, like this one which appears to
be from Espada, and (papers are rattling) like this one here
from the Alamo and this from the Mission Espada, I couldn't
find a nything; but I think somebody found that book that
they had gotten from the record--somebody had made a small
book about this big (indicated how big): because they made
a photo-static copy of it. And I took--you know they made it
for me--they sent it to me. And I got it. But I've got it
some place ; I couldn't find it. You see, but I've got it at
home some place.
C: You say, you have these brands.
H: I've got a photostatic copy of the book--that
part of that book that had the records of these--I mean this
and this. (indicated which ones) And I had some other ones,
but these here werefue ones I was interested in. I wanted to be
sure because since grandpa had them here .
C: Uh huh.
H: You know, records of these things here; I wanted t o be
sure that they were on records. And both of them show it
in that book that they were records in the Bexar County.
(Courthouse) : "Las dos dec i an Bexar" (English translation--
"The two said Bexar")
HERRERA 32
H: So there is bound to be the book--I'm going to--if I
find--I might be able to find the photostatic copy .
c : Goodl
H: From there you might be able to check and see what
book it is .
C: Tha t ' s true .
H : 50mebody ' s bound t o have printed i t.
C: Yes . Well, it sure would be nice if you find it.
H: And I couldn ' t find anything. I was looking
because they didn't want--they were after me to find these,
you see . And that' s all I could find. I haven't f ound the
othe r t he other . . this i s a l l I could find .
C: Yes.
H: That ' s why I took it to them over there a nd I was
go i ng t o take it to the Alamo, too, they have been after me
t o find it for them . But I knew that I had it .
C: Yes.
H: You see, but I didn ' t know--the s ame way with this.
I don 't know whe the r .
C: Who do you? What do you think that one might be?
H: Well, to me
C: Do you think i t would be poss ible that it was from
one of the Missions? Or do you think it was one o f the
r a nches?
H: No , I think it was from one of the missions. But the --
it has t o be the top-- you know--the top. And that ' s what I
haven't been able to figure out.
HERRERA 33
C: What mission do you have that's got the top like that?
H: Even if it's got holes in here .
C: Yes, that's--maybe San Juan Capistrano. See, look at
the one right there behind you , see : the two ones at the
bottom. The one on your right is San Juan Capistrano and
t he one on your left is Espada.
H: This is Espada?
C: Yes , and the other one is San Juan Capistrano.
H: Yeah, but you see I can 't--you can't see very well the.
C: See that's San Juan Capistrano.
H: It's got something to do with this--I don 't know.
I'm going to find out because I ' ve got it someplace. I've
seen it in too many places what they mean by that .
C: Uh huh.
H: You see , and then it's got the "P"P upsidedown ,
and this is something that I've been trying to figure out,
too, as to what it is; because, I find it in lots of my-­in
the books, you know , records and all things like that .
And a lot of the outfits , like this, you see this here?
C: Uh huh .
H: All right. That ' s got it, too.
C: Uh huh.
H: The one that I have--what other one do I have?
I don ' t know where I've got the other one .
going over papers.) (Pause)
(A. Herrera
I had some that were--that showed the--like this--see?
C: Uh huh.
HERRERA 34
(Pause . Mr . Herr era goi ng over papers . )
H: And this one You see , those are the ones that
I have now . I have t his and this . I made a big copy
of them . I don ' t know where I put them. This is the book
I was te l ling you about . (Mr . Herrera going over papers .)
Have you read that?
c: No , I haven ' t .
H: You haven't?
C: No , not this one I haven't . No .
H: This lS the letter . This is what I have. I got it
with mi ne . I ' ve got the origi nal . You see, they try to
tel l me in Austin about t he signatures ; and I~ve got both
signatures of the old man , Jos~ F rancisco Ruiz and his
son . And they got over there , where they signed the
Declaration of Independence , and I told them "Whoa , I ' ve
se~three different records of the Texas Declaration of
Independence and everyone of them is different.
These are the legitimate 'what do you call it? .
Signatures .
C: Yes.
H: And t hey are there.
C: They wrote very well back in those days.
H: Yes, well , he was the first school teacher .
C: Yes , I know .
H: (Pause . Mr . Herrera going through papers . )
I can't find
Yeah . There's where
Oh , this is what I want.
This is what I want.
HERRERA 35
C: Uh huh. O.K. What did this represent?
./ /
H: This is Jose: Jose de la Garza . I mean Antonio de la
Garza .
C: Antonio de la Garza .
/
This is Jose Francisco?
H: What did I say? Where did I put that?
I don ' t even remember.
C: You've got an "H" _- you 've got a "J 11 "J 11 tIF" there.
/
H: Jose? I don ' t remember . To tell you the truth , I
don ' t remember . I 'm going to have to check. Didn ' t I
write it here?
C: I think you wrote that one down. Here , let ' s see?
H: (Reading the documents.) Oh , let ' s see , turn it around .
C: No. Here .
./
H: Here! Jose Maria Herrera . This is my grandfather:
/ Jose Herrera. There it is: Jose Herrera.
C: I see . What is t his one here?
H: Which one? Bias .
C: O. K. : Bias Herrera .
H: Bias Herrera . ./ .
J ose Herrera y Anton~o de la Garza . *
*Duplicates of the papers described in the interview
are included with this oral review. It is very difficult
to determine with certitude whi ch brands are f r om the Missions
based on the evidence available up to date of this interview
GRC
HERRERA 36
C: Mr . Herrera , what have we got here? This apart from
the Missions and branding irons, what is it about?
H: This is the tract of l and that we got : my grandfather 's.
C: Your grandfather's .
H: You see , and it was made by Francisco Antonio Ruiz.
It is a survey. That ' s the one . This is mine , see from
here to here. Here's where my houses are . You see, we gave
this; because this is the old road, Camino Real; it was here;
makes a triangle, you see. And a lot of people don 't know
that--we gave--my family gave that tract of land for the
bridge.
C: Oh .
H: And , this is the old , from old records. But I had--
I've had some papers here that I wanted to show you where
the Camino Real used to . (Mr. Herrera looking through
papers.) Here it is. Maybe it will show . (Pause) There
it is. You see, this is the Medina River.
c: Uh huh.
H: corning in like that. Now this is corning from town.
See? You remember that big long--that went to the river ,
it went like that. This is the Camino Real across here.
Here, right now, is where we have the bridge . We gave--
our family gave this here--to form that new road, like that,
see.
Now this is the old road. You see? Now down here,
you can follow--the river made a turn , this way.
the old crossing
This was
HERRERA 37
c : That's the Paso de l as Garzas there .
H: That ' s it ! You can see i t, and it goes across , you see .
And it goes across here and it meets-- this meets right over
here. This used to be the crossing .
Now he h ad a lancha (small ferry ) you see, and Blas ,
the old man , had it , and he passed it on to Los Herreras,
passed it on, and De la Garza , too / had it; and he got per-mission
to have it and he used it for several times and
he abandoned it. And then Blas, Jr ., you know , one of hi s
sons, l ike my grandfather--it was his brother --B l as , J r.--
Number II--he got permission and I have the records of
how much he charged and everything .
c: Good . Thank you, Mr . Herrera.
END OF TAPE I
Side 2 30 minutes