SUBJECT:
THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
civil Rights Series
INTERVIEW WITH: Mrs. Gladys House and
Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook
January 21, 1994
Houston, Texas
DATE:
PLACE:
INTERVIEWER: Gary Houston
(H - Gary Houston / GH - Gladys House / HH - Holly
Hogrobrook)
H: It's Friday, Jan. 21st, 1994, I'm in Houston sitting in
a restuarant called camp Logan with Mrs. Gladys House and
Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook, we're on West Dallas st. in Houston.
Mrs. House, can you ... First, just give me a little
bit about your background and where you're from and what
brought you to the neighborhood.
GH: Well, I'm a native Houstonian. I was born, reared, and
I currently live, in Freedmen's Town. I'm a journalist, but
really a concerned resident of Freedmen's Town. I'm the
founder of the Freedmen's Town Association, which really got
me involved in this whole process of preservation and
revitalization of Freedmen's Town back in 1980. And I
became involved because I became fed-up with watching the
so-called Ministerial leadership of Freedmen's Town.
H: You were born in Freedmen's Town were you?
GH: Yes.
H: What year? Is that a fair question?
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook
GH: Yeah, '55, August 11, '55.
H: Oh, you're a young one then.
GH: Of course.
H: Can you give me a little bit of background of
Freedmen's Town? Just the history of it.
GH: Well, it's a community that was founded ... it's the
first African community, planned community for African
people, by freed slaves after the civil War in 1865. It is
a historic district, the largest of its kind in the united
states. It ...
H: How many families lived here originally? how many
homes were built?
GH: Originally ... are you talking about ...
H: In the 1860s.
GH: Oh, in the 1860s it really wasn't that large number
because they were just getting started.
H: Did the freedmen purchase the land themselves?
2
GH: But it was the turn of the century. Yes, uh-huh, they
..... land. No one gave them anything. We never got 40
acres and a mule. So they sure weren't going
give them this. And they just built it up. They ...
H: And most of the people who settled here came from this
immediate area?
GH: Washington-on-the-Brazos. Around Navasota, Brenham,
Texas, coming from that portion of Texas.
H: When Freedmen's Town was in its heyday,
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 3
H: how many families lived here? Would you have any
idea of the numbers?
GH: Well, I would say it this way: Africans accounted for
one-third of Houston's population at the turn of the
century, so we were looking at least 35 to 40 thousand
people in Freedmen's Town. Of course Freedmen's Town then
was twice the size it is today.
H: So that it really is the oldest black neighborhood in
Houston?
GH: In Houston? Yes it is.
H: And it began to change ... its character began ... Well,
first of all, tell me what it was like in its heyday and
when that took place, when it lasted .
GH: Well, Freedmen's Town was like a city within itself,
because blacks did not have to go outside of Freedmen's Town
for economic, community or social development. Everything
was here, your first African-owned anything was here in
Freedmen's Town. Over the period of the transition ... well,
the change occurred with the taking of the land in the early
'30s. with the crash, a lot of African property owners
turned over their deeds to the land to the Italian-owned
grocers, owners of grocery stores, for a line of credit for
groceries, and other things, and once the Africans did that,
well, they were at the mercy of these Italian immigrants who
in turn were unfair and unjust in their handling of the
agreement. And often retained the deeds, never giving them
Mrs . Gladys House / Mrs . Holly Hogrobrook 4
GH: back over to the Africans . So this is why today you
have Italians being the larger percentage of property owners
in Freedmen ' s Town, i n terms of private ownership.
H: Uh-huh .
GH : Public ownership by the City of Houston . • . H. I . Stevens
Of course, they are the largest property owners of the
community. And that was by plan ... plan ... you know, for
that, but anyway the .. .
H: What was the plan?
GH: Well, to take land from African people . Like they've
done in Kansas city, like they ' ve done throughout the
country. When Black communities constantly would build
where the very government to protect them worked toward
their destruction . Every time they would build up, they
would run railroads . Back then, they ran the railroads
through. Today they run the freeways through the
neighborhoods. And, you know, eminent domain and other
forms . So it ' s not that the African communities today do
not want to be improved or empowered. But they always . . •
it's always confrontation or obstacle placed before Africans
by the local , state or federal government. And so it's just
kind of hard when you look at the non-African communities.
They have the support of the government .
H: How can that be changed? Or how can we actually deal
with that to preserve .•. ?
GH: Well, one, you have to shoot and kill all those nigger
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook
GH: politicians who sell us out.
H: (laughter)
HH: (laughter) .....
5
GH: Two ... (laughter) two, you're going to have to empower
the people in the neighborhood through jobs, small business
development ... it really ... education in showing them how they
can be empowered and the benefits, the immediate and long­range
benefits, of being empowered, of owning your own
business rather than always going ... taking your money to ...
Well, being a consumer, as opposed to wanting to be a
merchant. And it's very simple to do that, but it's going
to take the support of the churches in the neighborhood,
the grass-root organizations, the private and public
sectors.
H: When did people start moving away from ... black people
start moving away from Freedmen's Town and where did they
go?
GH: Well, they began moving away, after the crash, over
into other areas, like the 5th Ward.
H: Uh-huh. After the crash?
GH: Well, you know, 1930, when they had .. .
H: The Depression.
GH: ... Depression. That was a crash. And ...
HH: There was some earlier movement than that.
GH: It was ... yeah.
HH: Some earlier movement in the 5th Ward.
Mrs . Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook
GH: Yeah, but ...
H: Uh-huh.
HH: In the 3rd Ward close to the park - Emancipation Park.
GH: Yeah.
HH: But that was kind of suburban Negroes.
6
GH: Yeah. Right. But the real mass exodus occurred in the
'40s, 1945, when the Houston Urban League won its housing
and discrimination suit against the City of Houston. Which
opened the doors for Blacks to go, really live where they
chose to live. And so people began to move out of
Freedmen's Town and go and set-up other neighborhoods.
H: I don't want to take too much of your time. What time
will you have to leave to go to your next meeting?
GH: Oh, probably, I can leave here at 2.
H: Okay. Oh, good, then that gives us plenty of time.
You don't need to see that release form then; everything's
cool about that.
GH: That's cool. I don't need to see any release form.
H: Okay. We'll just carryon. The purpose that I'm in
Houston for, this trip, is really a project for
Desegregation in Texas . And what we are doing is
interviewing important leaders and ordinary citizens around
the state, and getting their responses to desegregation. I
think, as I mentioned on the phone to you, many people have
felt that desegregation was a mixed blessing. Has it been a
mixed blessing as far as Freedmen's Town, or has
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 7
H: desegregation affected Freedmen's Town?
GH: Adversely.
H: How so?
GH: Well, first, from the economic, social and community
standpoint. One, housing. We were allowed or we felt we
were free to go move until we ... we just had to be next door
to white folk, okay? So we had to move .. .
H: Why is that? Why do folks want to do that?
GH: I don't know; we'll come back to that later.
H: (laughter)
GH: The other thing is the economic aspect of it . We just
had to go and shop with them, when it was fine shopping and
doing business with a community based businesses, already in
our neighborhood ...
H: Uh-huh.
GH: And turning that dollar around a thousand times, you
know, and creating jobs as well as business expansion, and
so forth, in the Black neighborhood . From a social
development standpoint, we began to feel that where we could
not be better or whole unless we socialized with white
people. Yet in the ... and I always felt ... Dr. King and all
them because ..... I say, well, they did not plan the long­term
adverse effects, because when you get ready to do
anything, you say, well, what are the adverse effects short
term? Okay? And, I guess, that outweighed what they
thought was long-term, or if they even envisioned a whole
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 8
GH: serious list of long-term adverse effects. So,
therefore, we are left holding the baggage of what they,
well, my generation, I'll say, is left hold the baggage.
It's like people used to call the generation of the '70s -
because I graduated from high school in '75 - the Hopeless
Generation, you know. We had no hope of having any problems
or anything, because we did not experience the '60s movement
... you know, the civil rights and all of that, you know, to
bring about civil rights ...
H: Uh-huh.
GH: And, but yet, that's not true. Because to us, it's
like all of that never happened. I mean the way racism is
so, just blatantly allover you. If you're African, in all
forms it comes. And to me it's like I was wondering, what
were you niggers doing back there? The viscious cycle has
re-presented itself, and maybe it's worse today because
considering the limited resources back then, and Blacks had
more to account for in terms of land ownership, business
ownership, and all in the community, Black community, We
don't have that today. We try to force ourselves on a white
community that constantly rejects us. We try to force
ourselves into a working environment where the white folk
don't want to hire us, and we should be about hiring
ourselves, allover again, and starting our own small
businesses, at whatever cost, okay? Cut back on our living
high - life style of living - and just go back to the basics
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook
GH: and survive. survive. survive. So, I feel that
desegregation has really done much more bad than good,
because people ...
HH: Aw, Gladys, now we can go into schools with them, and
get better education.
9
GH: No, we don't. How can you sit through a class when
racism is being talked about against you? Nigger this, and
welfare that. I mean, I experienced that in law school, law
school! And I'm a grown woman, you see?
H: Uh-huh.
GH: So ... and I just don't see where sitting down at the
table, eating in the same restuarant with white folk has
helped us any. I mean, maybe we have gotten some of the
information out that they know about how to work the stock
market or how to do different investments or how to get a
loan or CDs or lRAs and, you know, pension funds and all
centered around money . But I see nothing centered around
God, where we benefit ... benefited; and you know we've always
had something to give them. I see where white folk have
benefited. They said, yeah, we will open the doors so more
Negroes or Negroes can come into the Southwoods and give us
some more money. Okay? Or wherever. And I even look at
all other nationalities, not just white caucasians, but
other - the Asians and all them. They would come and set up
shop in the African community. Feed us poison. And we pay
them record numbers of our dollars to kill us. So, I ... but
Mrs. Gladys Rouse / Mrs. Rolly Rogrobrook 10
GR: yet, when today you have struggling small black
business trying to hold on to our ancestry, hold on to the
heritage ... But, yet, our people just can't seem to have
the vision of ... it's like a magnet draws 'em away from our
front door. They can't seem to step inside a black-owned
business - that magnet that drew them over, down the street
to the Asian owned seafood markets, you know. Or to any
white-owned business, and everything. But, another thing I
noticed, too, in the evening, driving down West Dallas into
the Montrose area, on Nino's Italian Restaurant ...
RR: Uh-huh.
GR .... you have to park out on the street because the
parking lot is full. You go on, Montrose down to the little
restuarants, go down Shepard. See, while black folks say
that they are scared to death to come out and eat, or to
support the black owned business, because they don't do it
in the daylight so they make up. The white folk are out in
record numbers supporting white-owned businesses. So what
I'm saying is, they say to hell with desegregation; we're
still going to eat and support white-owned businesses. But
black people, on the other hand, who are still fooled by
that joke, are going to try and find these white-owned
restaurants. And a lot of the black-owned businesses in the
community have to shut down at a certain hour, because you
can't afford to stay open because there is not enough
clientele coming in to justify keeping your doors open
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 11
GH: later, okay? So therefore, it's like the black
community closes down at 2 pm. But the white community's
on-going 'til 11 o'clock or 11:30 at night. You know? Seven
days a week. And I'm telling you what I know, because I
live next door to an affluent white neighborhood .
H: Uh-huh.
GH: And I go through it just about every day. But,
desegregation is a joke, a serious joke.
H: What's it done in the schools in Houston? I mean to
the historically black schools?
GH: Nothing. Nothing, but force black students to be
bussed into white neighborhoods.
H: Are there white teachers in the black schools?
GH: And ... you may have some, but .. .
H: Have we lost any of the historically black schools?
The ...
GH: Public schools? Yes. Yates is now largely Hispanic;
Wheatley, largely Hispanic.
H: But they are still open? They still exist, but they
are not predominately black?
GH: Yeah, but they're not ...
HH: They still have black leadership at the helm of both.
But the demographics are changing so that I don't see
Wheatley ... except that Wheatley has a very strong alumni
association . . . That will be the only thing that keeps
Wheatley under black leadership.
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 12
H: What do you think some of the motives were that caused
this sort of dilution of black ... ?
GH: It started in the de-concentration which occurred under
the Lyndon Baines Johnson administration which sole focus
was to de-concentrate black folk from out of the inner city,
so they would not be an economic or voting strength or power
to be reckoned with. So this is why, now, they can say,
well, we successfully diluted the black folk . Now we're
going to tear down the buildings in the disadvantaged inner
city neighborhoods, because black folk have abandoned their
original black neighborhoods. Or ... in so ... there's nobody
there to fight or to defend the disadvantaged or the
uneducated.
HH: Case in point - this precinct - precinct 3rd - my daddy
was a ward-heeler, so I learned all of the black precincts
early on.
H: Yes ma'am.
HH: This precinct was better than, always been better than
twenty nine hundred strong in voting strength. Voted 80
percentile, most of the time during the '50s and the '60s.
It also included Allen Parkway Village,
GH: Uh-huh.
HH: Which by that time had begun the transition over into a
black housing project.
GH: Uh-huh.
HH: They took Freemen's Town land and made that facility
Mrs . Gladys House / Mrs . Holly Hogrobrook 13
HH: white. Now, under the Johnson administration, the
prevailing thinking of housing educators, I mean housing
administrators - we want to de-centralize; we don't want to
keep the ghettos. They don't want to keep precincts 247 to
their Homes, Precinct 30, this one, and what ' s 101 or 102
out in 5th Ward - Kelly Courts. Kelly Village - because
these were all poor, black people who understood and
respected the power of ballot. And in the early '60s they
exercised that power. Now you have a situation where this
is fallow and vacant; they want to put a few blacks over
here, move you out to where they have these massive RTC
failures and put poverty-stricken people out in what were
once 80 thousand, 100 thousand dollar homes . Away from the
services that are goi ng to keep them stable famil i es until
they can stablize themselves. There are few of those
families are going into neighborhoods where you've had the
out-migration of employment . Now, we do have a thing of the
out-migration of employment in urban America. And to move
people out there does put them closer to jobs, but they have
to have a car to get to those jobs.
GH: Uh-huh .
HH: And most of these centers - urban centers - have
horrendously poor public transportation programs. So they
can't get to work. So they're still at the mercy of the
system, but they're moved from a system. But because there
are only 2 or 3 of them in this pocket, they really count as
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 14
HH: filthy, slovenly, lazy niggers who can't make, keep up
with nothing nohow . You can't clean a carpet if you can't
afford carpet shampoo. Okay?
H: Right .
HH: So ...
H: Well, what can we do - I want to ask you, Mrs. House,
and then you, Mrs. Hogrobrook - to reverse any of these
trends? I mean, these things seem to be well in motion. I
know you're fighting a valiant struggle. The same thing,
though, could be happening in 3rd Ward.
GH: Well, it is; it's systemic. I mean, how in the world
can you ... it has to be, have been, a master plan for this to
happen at the same time to all of the inner city
disadvantaged neighborhoods throughout, across this nation,
okay? You can't just say it's ... oh! my goodness, it's
probably historic .
HH: What can you do and what is realistic? Let's go back
to these same housing projects that I have empty . Gladys
has been a strong proponent of turning those public housing
units over into cooperative housing. And what we're talking
about is the return to a neighborhood, sociologically like
the ones at Freedmen's Town, where Doctor So-and-so lived on
the end of the block, and Mae Johnson lived in the middle of
the block, and Professor Diggs lived somewhere in the block,
and you had a stratification of educational differences,
economic differences. But the kids who lived in those
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 15
HH: neighborhoods, "When I grow up I'm going to be just
like Doctor So-and-so who drives a Cadillac or just like
Professor Diggs who is always clean and going to school."
So there was something to aspire to; those aspirations now
belong to the street, the street crime, criminals ...
H: And that diversity is something that we lost with ...
HH: Right. But with the cooperative housing, you will get
a person who can afford to buy a unit; buying in. section 8
could pay the housing bill for ownership of a person who
can't afford to buy-in . That person has pride in ownership.
I make an investment, Gladys makes an investment, and you
damn well better believe that that person is not going to be
allowed to tear down a building that they own commonly with
she and ... You understand?
H: So you think privatization of public housing is ..•
GH: I think privatization of public housing is definitely
the way it needs to go. And they definitely need to take
these ... Why would you want to tear down a building as
sturdy as these 1940s and 1950s public housing?
H: ..•.•
HH: Uh-huh.
GH: When all that ... they can be refurbished. They don't
even need to be remodeled. Some, some up-grading is going
to have to happen.
GH: Uh-huh. Well, it goes back to empowering the people.
Establishing community development corporations which serve
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs . Holly Hogrobrook
GH: as small developers.
H: Is there one in Houston?
16
GH: Yes. Yeah, we have the oldest CDC in Houston. We ...
and basically a CDC empowers the people to direct the future
of their community. From housing to small business and
social development. Second thing, we need to be about
financial reinvestment into our neighborhoods . We need to
redirect our dollars back into our communities, as well as
getting the banks that we have to bail-out at the tune of
$7,000 each person in America - at least $7,000 - so we need
... they have an obligation to us, not only just under the
community Investment Act of 1977, but as an investment on
GP. You know, being human beings, you know, if you've got
this debt and I have to put up the money for it, you owe me,
okay? So the bottom line is allowing the community to take
charge of itself. Empower people, but not only with the
technical assistance but with the financial assistance to do
some ... and just have short and long term goals and move
forward. And this is what we're doing in implementing our
redevelopment plan, is establishing small businesses one at
a time. Our goal is to open a new business every six
months, and we started off on the right track. We're in the
process of closing the deal on a dry cleaners and laundry
service - business here in the community - hopefully by next
month, February. We are looking at a super market, a little
commercial strip in the community, and the re-opening of the
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 17
GH: gas station across the street. So it's much there we
want to do, but it's just unfortunate that we don't have the
people - we have the power - they lack the vision, or our
shared vision, to do so.
H: Is there evidence of people moving into Freedmen's Town
now? Any kind of reversal of the trend?
GH: They're always moving into Freedmen's Town; then people
moving out. We have a growing Hispanic population, which
accounts for 20 percent of the population here, and we just
have over 5,000 people here in Freedmen's Town. But there
is a move to demolish buildings, large numbers of housing in
Freedmen's Town, so that there will be no housing available
for the families, so you decrease the population here.
However, this is where our efforts corne, in terms of
building multi-family units. See, we're about multi-family
unit construction.
H: other than single family?
GH: Right. Because it is ... it is totally ludicrous. Seven
blocks outside of Freedmen's Town, there is a 1,000 unit
complex that just opened. And always multi-family in
Montrose. I have yet to see a single family house go up
over the years. But their focus is to increase the dollar
and the members for votes, okay? But when it comes to the
black community - the disadvantaged neighborhoods - it's one
house here - like in the 5th Ward - one house there, or two
houses side by side; that is totally inSUlting. And when I
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 18
GH: told Guarantee Federal it was an insult, a sister -
Linda Walker - responded to me, "Well, black folk don't want
multi-family housing in their communities." I said, "Oh,
have you taken a surveyor something to arrive at that
ludicrous conclusion?" "Well, it's just that, you know,
black people want a home of their own; they want it
detached." And I said, "still, what survey have you done to
arrive at that conclusion?" She still hadn't answered my
question. So she got on the defensive and I said, "Well,
forget it; we want multi-family units in our community,
okay? We want condominimums too."
H: Uh-huh.
GH: But when we build it, don't want to build just one
house; we want to build three houses at one time, I don't
care if they are attached, detached, or what .
H: What is the threat? What do you think the design is to
replace the single family units with ... on the part of the
would-be-developers?
GH: The threat? What are the developers afraid of?
H: What would they do with the land here if they were able
to acquire it?
GH:
area.
H:
GH:
HH:
Oh, it would be an extension, really, of the Montrose
They would have ...
More than of downtown?
Oh, yeah ... it won't be any, any more commercial ...
This would become residential. It would become high-
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 19
HH: rise, mid-rise, residential; it would become yuppie.
GH: An extension of Montrose, I say, that's all. People
have got it confused. They're talking about an extension of
downtown. No, it would be an extension of the Montrose
area.
HH: They would move Green Pond into this area, as a form of
black community, right over next to River Oaks - called
Green Pond. A girl friend of mine is getting ready to move
into one of those apartments next month. And I just told
her where she was living, and the people who used to live
there, because it was a black community very much like this
one that I guess was probably Freedmen's Town's first
suburb. Back over there, were people who served the River
Oaks people. Kind of a quote unquote - River Oaks -
servants' quarters too, in a way .
H: Mrs. House, you mentioned that 1st Ward was planned for
some sort of rapid transit terminal or bullet train.
GH: Yeah. The developers, and the so-called leadership in
this city, had plans taking 1st Ward, wiping out the
community like they did, for development of the bullet
train. Remember when they were talking about when rail was
an issue in Houston? The realtor who was instrumental in
closing all of those deals is Paula Arnold, who is on the
school board. The developers and everybody - the
politicians - ran her for school board after she'd done such
a wonderful job. And on her license plate, on her car, she
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 20
GH: ... it was worded something like, "Thank you 6th, 2nd,
1st Ward for making me rich." Some kind of way, when you
read the license plate, that was the customized message you
got.
HH: Uh-huh.
GH: And I only hate that I found this out too late - when
she was running for school board - because I would have let
everybody know. I would have followed her everywhere she
was speaking, and let everybody know, "You do not want to
vote for this one."
HH: Uh-huh.
GH: so, things like this are clear, and we need to be about
trying to address them.
H: How far is 1st Ward from here?
HH: Right over the .. .
GH: About a mile and a half, two miles, yeah, just under
two miles .
H: So it's very close to downtown?
HH: Uh-huh .
GH: And it's just unfortunate that no blacks in 1st Ward
stood and fought for the preservation of 1st Ward .
H: What about our institutions? I mean, we have some
pretty strong black institutions, historically; had they
played any kind of role in helping preserve 1st Ward -
churches or social, fraternal organizations?
GH: No. Obviously not, because it's not there any more.
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook
H: What do you think ...
GH: I know the house and the families ...
21
HH: One of the young, active clergymen in the community is
the grandson of the man whose church he pastors. The church
in 1st Ward was Greater Mount ... ? .. , but this young Negro
not only moved the church out of the community, but he also
changed the name of the church to reflect .....
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT . . MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
HH: Do they have?
GH: I don't know .....
HH: There's an old cemetery over there, which I understand
is older than this cemetery.
GH: Yes ma'am.
HH: . .. this cemetery.
GH: They have tombstones ...
HH: Olivewood Cemetery. Now,I've got a granddaddy and a
great-granddaddy buried over there. But I ain't been able
to get close to it because Grocery Supply encroaches on it
on one side, and it's so overgrown all the time ...
GH: They cleared it off .. .
HH: ... that you don't dare . ..
GH: They've cleared it now. When I went over there a
little over a month ago ...
HH: Uh-huh.
GH: They have tombstones dating back to the 1700s.
Mrs. Gladys House I Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook
HH: Oh, really?
GH: Oh, yes ma'am.
HH: Oh, I'm going to go over there. Let me know when you
feel like doing that again.
GH: What was ..... , but anyway ...
22
H: Mrs. Hogrobrook, tell me if you think that
desegregation affected the role that the church has played
in the black community.
HH: Ah ... (laughter) Desegregation played ... affected that
role?
H: Because the church changed. I know that it played a
major role in the civil rights movement ...
HH: It played a major role in the civil rights movement.
Like a told you, I'm a daughter of a ward-heeler. Now, I
don't know what preachers cost these days ...
H: (Laughter)
HH: ... but (laughter) ...
GH: (laughter) She's right ... she's telling it like it is.
H: Well. . .
HH: But having been raised on the kneeling and genuflecting
side and crossing side of religion, you know, I can't really
see .•.
H:
HH: You all are welcome to use some of my cholesterol ...
cayenne pepper, if you would like, (laughter) ...
H: Some people have said, though, that because of the
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 23
H: migration out from historically black communities, that
that's affected really future prospects for strengthening
our black churches.
GH: No, no, I really think in Houston ...
H:
GH: ... if there's anything that the surburban Negro does,
it's come into town and touch his roots every Sunday.
HH: Uh-huh.
H: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
GH: There's not too much out there in the suburbs he can go
to, unless it's white.
HH: I know. I mean, we've got Brentwood now and some
others .
HH: Now a f ew blacks have built some sUbstantial churches
in the near suburbs, and they are full. Because the people
in the outer suburbs come in to those churches. Or they
come in even ... I think Mother Antioch is kind of a classic
case of ... Here's a church that doesn't have anybody who's
a member of it living within a three-mile radius of it .
GH: Uh-huh.
HH: But, the people who are members do come in.
H: How about the role of the social and fraternal
organizations? The lodges and sororities and the
fraternities. Have they played any kind of role at all?
HH: I think the traditional lodges are all but dead .
GH: Yeah.
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 24
HH: They have very few members who are even ... (?) ...
GH: Yeah .
H: Can we contribute that demise to segregation?
Desegregation, rather?
GH: wait a minute. You know the ... ? .. scottish Grand
Lodge is active, you know, and helping us here - AM ...
HH: Okay.
GH: •.. and AF.
HH: Uh-huh.
(mixed conversation)
H: Are they active on community issues? I mean ...
HH: That particular Lodge had no choice . Gladys body­slammed
them. (laughter)
H: Now who's Gladys?
GH: (laughter)
H: Oh ..... Gladys House body-slammed them.
GH: Yeah.
H: What did you do to them?
GH: Exposed them at conferences and everything.
HH: (laughter)
GH: It was the truth .
HH: In the gay community, they call it outing. You know,
I'm going tell the real truth about you and put your ... and
what your habits are. And that you don't support your
community. And while you're talking, all this, you know,
nice noise, you ain't about nothing. And you go to a couple
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 25
HH: of meetings and do that and then they decide, well, if
they're going to keep that reputation they say they have,
they have to be about something.
GH: Uh-huh.
H: Have you blown the whistle on some of the Greek
organizations or college ..... organizations at all?
GH: I have. But ... yeah, you're right. I have gotten the
omegas to do more for the community than any other
organization.
H: The Omegas? What have they done?
GH: It was like an individual person; some nigger man -
Ronald Reed, out of Austin. He would drive from here, but
he helped us get together the summer meals program for the
children.
H: Uh-huh.
GH: When we first started up in the summer of '89. He
helped us walk and boycott and picket and everything. But
he was just one individual, and he wanted to try and give
the credit to the Omegas. But he was just one individual.
And even Anthony Williams who ... (?) ... office, city
councilman who I oppose, he made it known about all the hard
work I was doing in the community and the Omegas gave me an
award, you know, some awards, but I couldn't get, really,
the man-power.
H: What ... you were complaining about what kind of
leadership that has developed from the black community.
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 26
H: That you. Do you think it's that the leaders aren't
home-grown? Is that part of the deal?
GH: I think so, yeahj a lot of them don't have any real
grass-root record of doing community things.
H: Uh-huh.
GH: I mean real hard grass-root community things. Not just
sitting on the board of directors of the neighbor Y.
H: Uh-huh.
GH: But out working with the children, elderly people, in
the neighborhood.
HH: And even some who have local birth certificates still
don't have much of identification with the community.
GH: Uh-huh.
H: Well, who makes the leaders, then, if they don't
identify?
GH: Well, I think the white power structure does.
H: They define our leadership?
HH: Yeah, they annoint them.
GH: Yeah .
HH: And they empower them with money, and they go on
television, which is where we get all of our images and all
of our direction from. The reason white folk go out and
support Nino's, down the street, is because they're reading
booksj they're not watching television.
GH: Uh-huh.
HH: So they're really not absolutely sure how bad it is.
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 27
H: (laughter)
HH: We are inundated with the crime in our community, such
that it has scared the living hell out of us, and we don't
even go back out into our community.
H: Now what is Nino's?
GH: An Italian ...
HH: An Italian restaurant.
H: Uh-huh.
HH: Or Vincent's, next door, he's a ... (?) ...
got good Italian food.
And they've
GH: Yeah. Because ... Or lot's of good cocaine ... ? ..
HH: (laughter)
H: You mentioned that there was a historic connection to
Italians in Freedmen's Town. What have the relations been
like between the Hispanic community and the black community
in this neighborhood? Or Houston, in general?
GH: Well, we ... I've just not seen much of Hispanics, you
know, coming over to support us on any of the issues.
H: Why is that?
GH: Well, because Freedmen's Town always fought for itself.
We didn't wait for other groups to come and help us fight.
We'd just go ahead and fight ourselves.
HH: Now a few of the Hispanics who have come here and
decided that they are going to be a part of this community,
make an effort to participate as labor. But you don't have
the overwhelming support ... You don't get the political
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 28
HH: leadership, you know, in the support of things.
H: ... (?) ... decide that the Mexican-Americans are better
organized politically than we are - the black community?
GH: Yes.
HH: You think so?
GH: In some aspects, yes; because they have the money, they
have the candidate ready ... I mean, after the running, they
go ... at the race; they're ready . In fact, it was the
Hispanic community that caused the removal of a
superintendent of HISD ... (?) ...
H: What race was the superintendent?
GH: She was a white chick. Hispanic students refused to go
to class because of, they didn't have adequate books and the
whole teaching environment was just pathetic . So the
Hispanic students set the pace.
H: ~.
HH: Uh-huh.
GH: And they ...
HH: Out at HISD, they were the niggers of the '80s, and
they responded, you know, and they got ... You know, they
got some change, got some movement. But then the wisdom of
the board was to pick another white superintendent -
... Name? .. had to mediate between .. . We don't want the
blacks and the Hispanics mad with each other. And even with
this new real slick move, as of we speak this morning, Rod
Page will likely be the new superintendent of HISD. He is a
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 29
HH: career educator, Dean of Education at Texas Southern;
he is a member of the board. And the board asked him if he
would serve. And I'm sure that move had been talked about
for several weeks, ...
GH: Uh-huh.
HH: . .. you know, quietly among the board. But anyway, a
gasp - oh, this comes as such surprise; I have to sleep on
it overnight. 7:30 this morning, this Negro was on TV
saying ...
GH: I'm it.
HH: ... 1 think I will. (laughter) But when the idea came
up, the three Hispanic members of the board .. .. Well, you
know, registered in opposition to it. One of them just got
appointed to the board, and already he was opposed to it.
GH: What? Already?
HH: Yeah, the one that got appointed last night.
GH: Uh-huh.
HH: The Page request overshadowed his appointment on the
news, so he was opposed. But I think the city needs a
minority ...
GH: Uh-huh .
HH: ... and preferably a black. We've got ... as a community,
we are losing too much.
GH: Yeah.
HH: We are losing young men. And the future of our
community, as we lose these young men ... And the schools
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook
HH: aren't doing anything for them.
30
H: What could of happened differently, that would have
prevented that kind of disaster? And, differently in the
process, the administration of desegregation? If you could
turn back the clock ...
HH: It's a whole plethora of things. And I think Bill
Clinton said it fairly accurately last night on Larry King's
show, when he talked about the whole business of urban decay
is a three-prong thing. It's jobs, education, and the
support, recreational and support resources. When you take
those things out of a community, you kill the community . We
had a ... (?) ... phenomena in this city - if you want to call
it phenomena. Phenomena is not controlled by man, so these
are controlled phenomena - quote, unquote the word. Of ...
they save money in the parks and recreation department of
American cities across the country, by killing recreation
plans. If the kids don't have anything to do in the evening,
in a community that is largely known as a latch-key
community, that opens them up widely to arrant behavior.
Hence pregnancy, a higher crime rate, a higher drug
activity. No supervision, poor schools, no education . No
education, no jobs. No small businesses in the community,
such as ... Even places like this one, you know, no jobs.
H: Uh-huh.
HH: So you've got a dead community and you've got a bunch
of people who are sitting around on street corners, doing
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook
HH: nothing .
31
H: Mrs. House, how do you feel that the civil rights
movement, and even what's going on today in terms of housing
and development in Houston, is different, was different,
than other parts of Texas? Or other parts of the country?
Is it different at all? Or not?
GH: It's the same . Like I said, it was a well-planned
concept to break up the power bloc in the black community,
and in the city.
H: Is Houston ... is the black community, in general, in
Houston, any different than Dallas and San Antonio or New
Orleans or Atlanta? I've always thought that it was.
GH: Yeah, well, I would like to say that blacks in Dallas
are more progressive.
H: More progressive?
GH: Yeah. Politically, economically .
H: Why do you say that?
GH: One, the types of businesses in Dallas, and the things
that blacks are doing in Dallas, progressively, like you
have a commissioner - I forget his name right now ...
H: John ... (?) .. .
GH: Yeah. On the front line, being arrested with the
grass-root people for change. Okay? Now if you can get ...
we're trying to get L. Frank O'Lee, our commissioner who's
been in office now what? ..
HH: Just to come out and meet the people.
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 32
GH: ... just to come here to meet with ... shit, been doing
this for how many years? Since he's been in there. He's
been in there how many years?
HH: I don't remember ... about 10 years .
GH: See? So, he ain't coming out, man. He ain't coming
HH: Now the way I understand it, the people in, blacks in
Dallas are not nearly as progressive as blacks here are, if
you want to call it progressive. However, that reticence to
be progressive may have been the very thing that saved them
to create the image that she has of them .
H: Uh-huh .
HH: The maintenance of a stronger black business community
GH: And CDC ...
HH: ... as a result of ...
GH: ... improving housing and small business in dis-advantaged
neighborhoods in Dallas and that was .. . Hey,
they got one of the top ones, and so .. .
H: What's it called?
GH: Oak Cliff Redevelopment Corporation .
H: Uh-huh.
GH: I have to say Dallas is much more progressive .
H: You think Texas seldom has played a role in defining
the nature of the black community in Houston?
GH: Probably.
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook
HH: Texas Southern .. .
H: Mrs. Hogrobrook is on the faculty of Texas Southern
GH: She would ...
HH: Thanks a lot. I really appreciate that.
H: (laughter) You're not proud?
33
HH: Oh, I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud that I'm an
alumni of Texas Southern . I'm proud that I'm a native
Houstonian, and have been a part of the business community,
you know, in this community, in this city, for years. Now
that we've got all that on the table, it allows me to speak
more objectively .
All: (laughter)
H: And with authority.
HH: Okay. I think, too, Texas Southern has been a
stabilizing factor in Houston because of what it represents,
and the fact that it represents the largest budget of -
state budget controlled by blacks - in the state. It
provides, I think, roughly a 50 million dollar payroll. I
believe that figure is fairly correct .. .
GH: Uh-huh.
HH: Provides a 50 million dollar payroll, for the most
part, to African-Americans, and it represents our hopes, our
aspirations, and our dreams, when it comes to academic
accomplishment and social achievement. Yet, Texas Southern
has, with the exception of Raphael Lanier who was not
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 34
HH: necessarily a Houston insider but had the advantage of
being a prior Dean to Houston College for Negroes before he
left and then came back as the offical first president of
Texas Southern. We have always had leadership come from
outside the community, and I don't think that all of the
leadership has necessarily understood what Texas Southern
can do, and must do for African-Americans in Houston, in
Texas and in the Gulf Southwest. And we, perhaps, need to
have ... We should have a community now that is mature
enough to begin to sensitizing, to sensitize these leaders,
early on, to the demands and the needs of the community.
But there's always been the kind, the typical kind of town
and gown attitude. And it's typical kinds of town and
gown's conflicts between Texas Southern and the black
community at-large that you find in any, you know, other
community that is heavily impacted by an academic
institution. And you have to view Houston's black community
as a separate community, because there is not enough
homogeneity to say that we are all a part of Houston. You
do have two cities - the black Houston and the Houston at­large.
GH: Uh-huh.
H: Well, if Texas Southern is changing, as we said earlier
it might be, I wonder if that also signals some kind of
change for the black ... (thank you) ... some things for the
black community in Houston itself. Could that be true?
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 35
HH: Yeah. Texas Southern is still mostly black, in terms
of its student population. Its faculty is changing, and by
law those changes really can't be averted as long as they
are handled ...
H: Is changing in what direction now?
HH: Well, you're getting in more an increased number of
AnglO-Americans on the Texas Southern University faculty
than you have had for others. But it has always been a
diverse faculty. It has always had white faculty members, as
well as people from an international, who bring a strong
international perspective to the faculty. That still
remains. But, yet, over 70% of the faculty, I believe - I
don't really trust my numbers - is still African-Americans.
H: Well, Mrs. House, I wonder where you feel things will
go from here, as far as the future of Freedmen's Town and
the future of us as a people, as a presence in Houston.
Because there have been some difficult times in the past;
what do you think the future's going to hold?
GH: Well, first off, for Freedmen's Town. We are going to
preserve, revitalize Freedmen's Town for what we want as
concerned, commmitted, conscious African people. Secondly,
with us as a people in general, we are left with no choice
but to begin to invest in ourselves and find out more about
increasing our level of consciousness about who we are and
what can be done to correct a lot of the problems that are
facing us in the black community daily. And how do we get
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 36
GH: there? I mean, we don't have the time to even talk
about it in this interview.
H: What's Freedmen's Town going to look like in ten years?
GH: A community of ... ? .. , a competitive (?) community . I
would like to say a community that is a mecca for African
people, around the nation. When they come to Houston or
whether they actually reside in Houston, say, "0h, I'm going
to Freedmen's Town, you know, to the jazz spots, or to do my
shopping or to try and lease some office space, or to
actually own a home in Freedmen's Town, or an apartment . So
it will be the Freedmen's Town that it was prior to
integration .
H: Is there ... (?) ...
HH: To other new areas of the community. I don't think
that's going to be a problem.
GH: Uh-huh.
HH: It's all about ... I mean, it's a real estate motto:
location, location, location.
H: That you can get middle class blacks to move back if
HH: Oh, yes.
H: ... the quality is sufficient.
GH: And let me add this, too. Many people who have left
Freedmen's Town would love to return, okay? But they want
to return to quality, finer housing. Many of them are doing
quite well - middle income and upper middle income - would
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 37
GH: love to return. Time and time again, they've said.
And the only reason they left was because they wanted a
better environment, better housing. I think we'll still be
here.
H: Has the historic designation made a difference in any
of the active efforts to preserve the housing style?
GH: No.
H: It really hasn't?
GH: Initially it did because there was one ... it kept the
city at a distance - the city being local government -
because the local government was ignorant on the historic
district. So the property owner - and even today Houston is
very ignorant on the benefits of a historic district. And
the philosophy appears to be, if it's old tear, it down,
kill it, stomp it out. But when, you know, neighboring
cities and towns take a great deal of pride in preserving
their heritage and history, Houston is the most backward
city I have ever seen in the country.
HH: And in that regard, you've got to say that Houston has
an equal opportunity ignorance.
H: (laughter)
HH: ... in that attitude (laughter) .. .
GH: That's true.
HH: Because they tore down that ... where Warren's Bar was,
that was the oldest building, oldest commercial building ...
GH: Yeah, downtown?
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 38
HH: Uh-huh. You know the bar up on Travis? The Warrens
... before the Warrens moved over to what used to be
Hollywood .....
GH: Oh, yeah, I knew someone .....
HH: Yeah. I think that was the oldest commercial building
... hell, the building's old, falling down. Why get it
repaired? You know, knock the sucker down. And that's the
attitude.
GH: Yeah.
HH: And it had an active business in it at the time. So
it's not just ... it's not a problem that black preservation
is facing alone, when it comes to that insensitivity. But
when you take that insensitivity and juxtapose upon it the
natural racist - racism and greed - that comes from being a
part of the power structure, it poses additional burdens on
communities like Freedmen's Town.
GH: I'm calling a press conference to announce my candidacy
for the school board, on the grounds of the old Gregory
School.
HH: Uh-huh.
GH: What would you think if I did? (laughter)
HH: I like that. And then you're going through the school
board?
GH: Oh, you know, I filed January of '93.
HH: Oh, okay.
GH: But, you know, I'm just going through the motions ...
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 40
H: community? schools?
GH: Yes . Definitely . I would like to see more input from
the community. See, HISD has been anti-community input in
the past. But, I like the way the Chicago system is set-up,
where the person on the school board is elected from within
the community. It's like ... sure, you have the school board,
but the school board cannot move forward and do what it
wants to without the input of the community, and the
community has a representative. Like, we would have a
representative from Freedmen's Town. Montrose would have a
representative. You know, you would have different people
from different areas of the community, to have input on the
direction that the system should take.
H: Yes, ma'am.
GH: And we would cut out all of this ... We're trying to
bring in all different types of education that, no longer do
the students get a grade. They can say average, pass and
satisfactory. No ...
HH: Uh-huh.
GH: ... and they no longer have to read books. They can
deal with comicbooks, rather than deal with something of
substance, and that's a bunch of foolishness. That's a cop­out.
And that's putting our children in, on the wrong route
again.
H: You'd bring back more traditional studies?
HH: I just did a ...
Mrs. Gladys House / Mrs. Holly Hogrobrook 41
GH: Yeah, it's got to be traditional .
HH: I just did a spelling drill in my business and
professional communication class this morning. Out of 20
words spelled, it was not unusual to have 13, 15, 12, 11,
wrong. Not right; wrong.
H: Um.
HH: And that's 11th grade; that's 11th grade level
spelling. Now, that isn't something that happened to them
in Texas Southern. You know, in Texas Southern and black
schools and many colleges get the, a bad rap from what is
essentially .... . If you were a computer, they would call it
a computer problem . They talked about the rule of GIGO -
garbage in - garbage out. If you're not teaching them, then
you're sending them into a system and they don't know. You
can't expect miracles overnight.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.