THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: Lee and Thelma Holley
INTERVIEWERS: Jim Sweeney and Geraldine Bakke
DATE: November 6, 1986
PLACE: Iredell, Texas
JS: Now Lee, I understand you are a native from Alabama, am
I correct on that?
LH: No. My grandparents came from Alabama.
JS: And how did they happen to get here?
LH: Well, they just - they come across? (overland ?) in
covered wagons.
JS: Covered wagons - that's a long distance. How long did
it take them to get here? Did you ever hear?
LH: No, I never heard that.
JS: And, so, you were born here in this area.
LH: In this house.
JS: In this house.
LH: Right.
JS: And you lived here how many years?
LH: Was born here, but moved back in 1938.
JS: And, what do you normally do here in - what have you
done in this house? Are you retired now?
LH: I am now.
JS: Uh-huh. And what did you do?
LH: Oh, I farmed, operated heavy equipment.
HOLLEY
JS: Heavy equipment means what?
LH: Bulldozers, maintainers.
JS : On the road, or on your farm?
LH: No. Conservation work.
2
JS: And , what's conservation work? What do you mean by
that?
LH: Well, it's building ponds, terraces, removing timber,
plant grass, etc.
JS: And, so forth. That's interesting (laughter). Did you
raise any cattle at all here?
LH: Oh, yeah, some.
JS: What type?
LH: Oh, white-face cattle mostly; goats, sheep.
JS: So that was, l e t's say, from where I come from they
call those cows and horses and what? Donkeys or mules?
LH: Mules.
JS: Mules. And what sort of farming - what kind of farming
did you do?
LH: Oh , just general farming.
JS: What's general farming?
LH: Small grain and grow corn, cotton.
JS: What, Thelma, when for instance, and I ask you because
I'm sure you remember the date , when were you married? Or
where are you from? How did you meet your husband?
TH: At the school in Spring Creek.
JS: Oh , you're a native, then of this area?
TH: Yes.
HOLLEY
LH: She was born in this county.
TH: Yes.
3
JS: And you met in what grade? Do you recall when you
first met?
TH: Second grade, I guess. First or second grade.
JS: And did they have at that time modern school houses, or
were they one-room school houses?
TH: They had a two-room school house. They called it the
big room and the little room.
JS: And how many classes in each room?
TH: Up to the last grade, sixth, I guess, in a room.
JS: And did you have different teachers in each room?
TH: Uh-huh.
JS: And what did you - you went to the eighth grade, is
that correct?
TH: Yeah, about sixth in the little room.
JS: Oh, so you graduated from high school?
TH: No, I didn't. I t ook typhoid fever and had to quit.
JS: Theoretically, the school gave you a degree?
TH: Oh, yeah.
JS: A high school degree?
th; Yeah.
JS: So you graduated, Lee, from the same school? Did you
get a degree?
LH: I "quituated".
JS: You "quituated". You "quituated" because of farming
small grain ..•
HOLLEY 4
LH: Right.
JS: And raised cattle, is that right? And if I might ask,
and I l ooked out the door here I see a nice big cow or bull,
I guess it is, of some sort. And how many acres do you
have?
LH: Two hundred.
JS: Two hundred acres. And is this one of your cattle out
there?
LH: Yes sir.
JS: What type is he?
LH: It's a white-face Hereford.
JS: And is he of - how many, of the herd? How many in the
herd?
LH: Oh. About fifteen.
JS: About fifteen. And do you have any milk cows?
LH: No.
TH: Have had.
LH: Have had, but don't now.
JS: No. more, huh?
LH: I "quituated" (laughter) .
JS: I like that "quituated ". Well now, I would like to ask
Geraldine since - since you're in on this interview. Do you
have any questions you could prod these folks on? Their
memories?
GB: I would like to ask him some of the things he reports,
that he did here in school. (laughter)
JS: That's great.
HOLLEY 5
GB: Why was it you had to wear books in the seat of your
pants?
LH: ' Cause I run off and played ball and my teacher told me
not to. So I either had to write "I went" 500 times, or
take a whipping. So I chose to take the whipping.
JS: And so you placed the books in the seat of your pants.
LH: Oh yeah. Two pair of breeches, and a book or two, that
helped.
JS: Did this happen often?
LH: No, I think that was the last time. It could have
been a second time. That ' s when I "quituated". I got into
this, and I refused to go back and take my whipping and my
Daddy told me I could take the whipping or go to work. So I
chose to go to work, and been working ever since.
JS: Well, did you win the baseball game?
LH: Oh, I can't remember that. (laughter)
JS: I thought maybe winning or losing - if you lose, you
lost twice, that would be serious.
LH: I was dreading that whipping, I guess, is the reason I
can't remember whether I won the game or not.
JS: Well. Geraldine, what else do you have to wheedle
these folks on?
GB: I wanted you to tell about the way you put the grain in
the shocks. You were telling that the other night, and how
you put the potatoes up.
LH: Oh, how we put up potatoes - sweet potatoes?
GB: And things like that.
HOLLEY 6
LH: Oh, they just pile these potatoes up in a pile like a
tepee and took cornstalks, cut 'em out of the field in the
fall, and, you kn ow, stacked 'em round the potatoes and
covered them with dirt for the winter - or as long as they
lasted.
JS: Now, I notice you call them "fruit potatoes"?
LH: Sweet potatoe s.
JS: Sweet potatoes, I see. Okay. How long would they
last?
LH: Oh, (laughter) depnd on how hungry you was. ( laughter)
Oh, usually through the you know, you put them up and
stored them through the winter if you had a good crop. If
you had a good sweet potato crop, you'd have enough sweet
potatoes to last for a family of 4 to 6, for the winter.
JS: And they didn't freeze?
LH: Not when you fixed them that away. Put these
cornstalks, you know, real close around and cover them with
dirt.
JS: Do you get much snow here?
LH: Not very much. Not very often.
JS: So you didn't have a real problem of a deep fre e ze?
LH: Well, yeah, we have some cold weather all right. But
it had enough dirt on it to keep it from fr e ezing.
JS: Geraldine.
GB: I was going to expound. How did you keep fresh meat
without refrigeration?
TH: Out in the old smokehouse we had. We kept - raised hogs
HOLLEY 7
TH: and killed them and made for meat, for the grease, for
sausage, and everything.
GB: And how did you cure the meat?
TH: Got that meat cure stuff and rubbed it on it. And pray
for it to stay cold.
GB: But I mean if was like in the spring, what happened? I
mean, did you run out, did it spoil ...
TH: Sometimes we 'd pack it in lard. Pack it down in our
grease with yellow lard. We just packed the ham, sausage,
and stuff down in there. Put it down in an old cellar, we
had back there - dug in the ground.
JS: Is this the ice house that you had?
TH: No. It was an old smokehouse, we call it.
JS: Smokehouse?
TH: It's an old wooden building out there at the back.
JS: And that served to keep everything cool. How about the
well, and the well water and the water in the house?
TH: Just draw water, whatever weather it was. We had a dug
well for cool drinking water, in the summer.
JS: And so you had to get the water out of the well? And
if you wanted to give the water to the cattle, which you
kept, you had to draw the water out of the well, or did you
have a windmill?
LH: Had a windmill and a dug well, both.
JS: So the windmill ... ?
LH: Furnished the cattle, yeah.
JS: Furnished the cattle.
HOLLEY 8
LH: And you had to get up early every morning and feed the
cattle, and
LH: Yeah. We got up early every morning, for one purpose
or another.
JS: What was early in the morning?
LH: Oh, daylight.
JS: What sort of - how did you spend your leisure time, if
there was leisure time?
LH: There wasn't any (laughter).
JS: This is Saturday and Sunday?
LH: Well , we usually - or I did, mostly, go into town on
Saturday evening to get our groceries. Sometimes she'd go
with me. Sundays, we either visited or had visitors. Got
out and p layed with the kids, or ..•
JS: You're talking in terms of automobiles?
LH: No. I'm talking about home.
JS: You're talking about - did you use horse and wagon,
that's what I meant.
LH: Yes. Sure did.
JS: And when did the automobile first get in? In your
life?
LH: Oh, it was about '28 when I bought my first one.
JS : What kind of a car was it?
LH: I bought a '28 model Chevrol et in about '32. Give a
whole big hundred dollars for a second hand one. (laughter)
JS: That's not bad. Good price.
LH: Well, it was then.
HOLLEY
JS: Well, was it a pickup or a ...
LH: It was a coupe. What we called a coupe - a two
passenger.
JS: And you used the trunk to carry things, or •..
LH: Yeah.
9
JS: Well, Geraldine, what else might you have to say on
these folks?
GB: Well , I heard Thelma say that Lee was born in this
room.
TH: Yes. In that corner and our baby was born in this
corner.
GB: There's 2 generations and a third generation lived in
the house at the time.
How many generations at once lived here?
You didn't have your mother?
TH: Uh-huh.
LH: Three. My granddad and grandmother and my Daddy's
mother and me.
wouldn't it?
I guess that would be three ge nerations ,
TH: And we bought it later. Moved here and raised our
kids.
LH: My granddad, I don't know what year he acquired this,
but he ra ised his family here. Five boys and two girls.
And my dad bought it from my g randdad in about 1909 and
we've had it from my Dad and Mother in about '3 8.
JS: So did you have a doctor present when you were born?
The doctor came from where?
HOLLEY
TH: Iredell.
LH: Iredell.
JS: Iredell. In a horse and buggy?
LH: No, he came in a car.
GB: No, when you were born.
10
LH: Oh, when I was born, no. Are you talking about me or
our family?
JS: I was talking about your wife. And so, about you. You
had apparently, you had a doctor present? He came by
automobile?
LH: I don't remember about that (laughter). Yeah, it was
Dr. - I had his name on the tip of my tongue and I can't
JS: He's long gone, I'm sure.
LH: Yeah.
JS: Well, Geraldine , what else did you have to ask these
folks?
GB: Didn't your father receive this claim - I mean your
grandfather - in a land grant? Did he, or did he buy it?
LH: No. Well, I tell you what my aunt told me and you read
that letter awhile ago, but that's a different story. But
my aunt told me just a few months before she died that my
grandpa rode a big red mule down here from down at Waco and
he homesteaded here at this place. And he traded - this man
was ready to move on. I don ' t know what his name was. And
my granddaddy traded him the red mule for the place.
GB: And if you were to want to sell it, what could you
HOLLEY 11
GB: sell it for now? And you know, because you had an
offer for it a few months ago.
LH: Well. I turned down a thousand dollars for it.
GB: Thousand dollars an acre.
LH: An acre, yeah.
JS: A thousand dollars an acre.
GB: Which would be two thousand, I mean ••.
JS: Two hundred thousand?
LH: Yeah.
gb; So you'd really rather live here than anywhere you
know?
LH: I guess I had. I've never lived anywhere else.
JS: So you're wealthy people. How about loaning some
money? (laughter)
LH: Well, I don't have any money, I've just got these 200
acres of land. I think more of that than I do of money.
JS: Geraldine, anything else you have to add? Or Lee?
Anything else you would like to say?
LH: I've finished.
JS: Geraldine, you were going to say something -
GB: Well, I don't know what else to ask him. I think that
the Holleys have been happy with this farm.
END OF TAPE I, SIDE 1, 15 MINUTES.
HOLLEY
TAPE I, SIDE 2.
GB: And how old were you when you married?
TH: Fifteen.
GB: And Lee?
12
LH: I was nineteen. And we both had a birthday right away.
We were married on the 16th of February. I had a birthday
the 27 of February and she had one the 7th of March.
JS: And were you married by a preacher?
LH: Married by the
TH: Justice of the Peace
LH: Justice of the Peace, Judge Word.
TH: Word.
JS: And he's, what, a local Justice of the Peace
LH: Bosque County. Bosque County judge.
GB: County judge.
JS: County judge. Is he still
LH: Oh, no.
?
LH: It was Judge Word.
GB: Burl Word.
alive?
JS: How do you spell that? B-U-R-L ...
LH: Yes.
GB: And how many grandchildren do you have now?
TH: We have 10 and - ...
LH: Not that many "greats". One on the road.
GB: And your children were -
in this ? .
HOLLEY 13
TH: Two daughters - Weda Nell, Reba, and two sons - Frank
and Bobby (deceas ed) .
GB: And you l ost a son-in-law t o leukemia.
TH: Yeah. I lost a son, too. Our oldest son got killed.
Fell off a boat dock while working on the Gulf Coast.
JS: And they are in this area, all of them?
TH: Yeah. Three of them. Yeah.
JS: Do any of them farm this area?
LH: No.
in Clifton.
JS: So you still have to get up early in the morning and
feed the cows?
LH: No. I get up when I fee l like it. ( laughter)
JS: Who feeds the cattle then?
LH: Oh, I do in the winter when they need feeding.
J S : They just browse now .
LH: Yeah.
J S : I see . And t he other - who are the three, and what do
they do in this area?
TH: Well, our son and one daughter works up at the nuclear
plant in Glenrose. And the o ther daughter in Clifton, she
babysits and her husband's a carpenter. We lost one
son-in-law and one son.
JS: I see .
We ll, how about, do you have anything further to tell us
about your grandfather in the Civil War? I'm very much
interested in that, you know.
LH: Well, all I know about it, he was captured during the
HOLLEY 14
LH: War, I don't know where at. And was taken to New York
and was held in the bel l y of the ship.
JS : Prisoners ' ship.
LH: Yeah. Duration of the War. I don't know how ...
JS: Up in the Hudson River.
LH: Somewhere in there , I don't know where. And I heard
him tell one incident about a prisoner - another prisoner _
they took him out for exercise one day, on skates. These
people up there didn't think these southerners could skate.
But one in the bunch staggered around like he couldn't
skate. First thing you know, he "P-s-t!" he was gone. I
heard him tell that. That's about the only incident I heard
him tell.
JS: He made it. Escaped on ice. Ran on skates. Well ,
that's the first prisoner I ' ve hever heard who skated to
freedom. Especially on ice.
GB: Did you all suffer during the Depression? Did you have
a hard time - well , I know you had a hard time - everybody
did. But were you - but like if you had to replace a roof
or something, what did you do?
TH: Let it leak. (laughter)
LH : Let it leak. Put the bucket under it.
TH: Hadn't been for Grandpa Holley, we'd have starved to
death. He helped us out. Give us a hog, he'd buy a sack of
flour one in awhile , things like that.
JS: Was he retired?
LH: Oh, yeah.
HOLLEY
JS: What was he retired from?
LH : Farming.
JS: Farming.
15
LH: He bought quite a bit of land around here. And he sold
it off along and took three of his boys one here and another
200 acres over there and another 11 here and another place
back here, that I know of. And he had a little money .
' Course enough, he thought , to last him the rest of his
life, which it did. Just barely did. He lived to be about
93 years old. And, anyhow, I was with him one day on the
road , driving for him , and he told me, said, "This old man
is nearly broke." And anyhow , when he was buried, he had
about six hundred dollars left. He got a little Confederate
pension.
JS: That was a lot of money in those days.
LH: Oh yeah. Back then, it was.
TH: It was ' 38 when he died.
GB: When they were killing cows, you know, when the
government was killing cows, did you kill cows?
LH: Didn ' t have any to kill. Had a milk cow, and that was
it.
GB: Well, people did.
LH: Oh yeah. Lots of people.
JS: Did their own butchering?
GB: No. The government passed a ruling that if you had so
many cows, or I don ' t know just what - was surplus of meat,
I think they said it was. And they killed the cows. They
HOLLEY 16
GB: just took so many out of your herd and killed them.
LH: That was after Roosevelt came into power, wasn't it?
GB: It was the end of the Depression, I guess about, but it
was
LH: What they done was try to get rid of some of the cows
to get the price up on it, you know, on the balance.
JS: Well, how about cattle rustling? Did you experience
any of that here?
LH: No.
JS: During the Depression? Did you during the Depression?
I mean, wouldn't somebody that's starving be apt to take
somebody else's cattle?
LH: Not as likely as they would right now.
JS: It ' s worse now?
LH: yep.
JS: Why is it worse now than it was ...
LH: Oh, people just don't know how to work. People don't
want to work. They'll steal before they work. Lot of
people will.
JS: Is this any particular group of people? I mean, you
take, for instance, the local people here, they seem to be
LH: No.
mostly.
It's not the loca l people, it's transients,
JS: Drifters.
LH: Well, no, they're just out here roaming around the
country at night, deer hunting or pick up a calf or your
HOLLEY
LH: tractor , or whatever .
JS: And how would they go about rustling the cattle?
LH: Now?
JS: Yes, now. Butchering right in the field, or ...
17
LH: Well, some butchers, not many are butchers; but most of
them load them in a trailer, take off to town with them.
JS: A whole cow.
LH: Yeah. A whole load.
JS: A whole load? It must be a pretty big truck they use.
LH: Well, yeah.
TH: They had a trial in Bosque County last year. J.D., you
know, cattle was stolen. They catch them.
JS: Are you bothered with break-ins here?
LH: Not here in particular, not out here in this
community .
JS: Do you lock you doors at night?
LH: Yeah. but that's ...
JS: Do you have a gun?
LH: Yeah. Handy!
JS: Handy. (laughter)
A hand gun, or a rifle?
LH: No, it's a shotgun.
JS: That'll do it. That ' s enough.
them.
(laughter) That'll fix
GB: What do you do for a pasttime now - hunt or fish .•• ?
LH : Both. Ride up and down the road, go to town.
JS: Where do you fish and what sort of fish do you catch?
HOLLEY 18
LH: Oh, we fish in our pond. And over to Whitney Lake,
State Park Lake.
JS: Well, then, this is good for you, Lee, but what about
Thelma. What do you do for •.•
TH: Oh, I go with him. (laughter)
JS: You mean you like fishing better than him?
TH: And who catches the most fish? Got a bunch the other
day over there.
JS: What do you use as bait?
TH: Crabs, worms, minnows, or anything that'll bite.
JS: They wi ll .
TH: Catfish, crappie and white bass on Whitney Lake.
JS: Well , are there special times, like early in the
morning, that you go? Or late in the evening?
TH: Yeah.
GB: Do you stay all night?
TH: Plenty of nights.
JS: Do you stay out in the open?
TH: No, we got an overhead camper out there we stay
Warmer than in the house.
in.
JS: Oh, yes. Sure . Well , now do you have, Geraldine, do
you have any further questions? And, Lee ••.
LH: What about this old house?
JS: Well, I think it would be most interesting.
LH: Would you believe these three-rooms are about 85 years
old, or older?
This room that we're setting in is a year older than I
am. And I'm the oldest.
HOLLEY
JS: You're not as old as I am.
LH: I'm 76 years old.
19
(laughter)
JS: We're the same age. Okay, this house was built when?
LH: Oh.
JS: Just approximately.
LH: In about '87 or '88, 1887 or '8.
GB: About a hundred years old.
LH: I mean, '97 or '98. I'm sorry. My dad was, he was
born in '89, he told me he was about 7 years old and there
was a log cabin right down there that burned down and he
remembered throwing his little red boots out and going out
after them. So this house, if he was born in '89, it would
be, what, about 97 years old. And then I heard my grandad
say that a Mr. Royal, Mr. Barney Royal, the old man, lived
right down here where Knights live now. It must have been
in the spring, because my grandad sent one of his oldest
boys down there to plow in the field or work in the field
while the old man came up here and carpentered. He was a
carpenter. I've heard that story a few times.
And then, oh, in the 1940's, I guess, the old man Royal
lived right over the hill there. And he was kinda losing
his mind, he could remember still building this house. He
walked to the mailbox and sometimes got lost. They'd have to
take him back again. One night about nine o'clock, he
walked up there to that window while my wife was washing
dishes. Like to have scared her to death. (laughter) We
carried him home.
HOLLEY 20
JS: But you've since had electricty brought in here and
telephone ••.
LH: Right. It come to that house about half a mile, in
about '4 6, and they run out of - a shortage of wire during
the War. So we got delayed four or five years before we got
electricity.
JS: And then you got the phone in when?
LH: Oh, a few years ago, I don't know. Fifteen maybe.
GB: When did you get running water?
LH: Oh, we've had running water all the time.
GB: Since when? Water all the time?
TH: Had one hydrant ...
TH: The old well out there was dug in 1911, because I was
about a year old whenever it was dug. They've got my
picture standing out there in a long-tailed dress with my
black dog. That's when the old man dug the well.
JS: Dug the well.
LH: And we had a new well dug out there in '72.
JS: Well, I think that will conclude the - this very
pleasant conversation and I 'd like to thank you for your
cooperation in giving us this. And just ask one more time ,
do you have anything to add or questions you'd like to ask,
why now 's your time. If you have any questions to ask about
this, well do so, or comments.
LH: I don 't know of anything. I'm just sorry I didn't know
a better story for you.
JS: Well , I think it was a very good story.
HOLLEY 21
TH: What I remember about the Depression, we had cotton
that year, we sold it, what was that - 3 cents a pound,
wasn't it?
LH: Oh, when we lived at the Crossroads?
TH: Uh-huh.
LH : Oh, it was about 5 cents a pound, I think.
TH: Anyhow, I bought me 3 print dresses that year and give
3 cents a yard for 'em. And when we got through picking
cotton, I made Lee's breeches out of cotton sacks.
LH: And I wore them for about 2 years, too.
TH: Yeah. And later our son - we just had one boy - made
his clothes out of Grandpa's shirt tails. You know the
shirt tails are always good and the rest of it wore out.
And I made his clothes out of shirt tails.
JS: And they probably wore better than shirts and things
you buy today.
LH: 12 oz. duck, is that what they call it?
TH: I've got your picture in there, of us.
LH: You don't have to believe this. We've got pictures to
prove it. ( laughter)
JS: Well, that's fine. I tell you, thanks so much for the
delightful conversations and I appreciate this and thank
you, Geraldine. And I'm going B-A-K-K-E, I still don't
know how to pronounce ..•
GB: Bachy.
JS: Okay. Thank you so much.
END OF TAPE I, SIDE 2, 15 MINUTES