THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: Grandfather, George Disney Gray
INTERVIEW WITH: Elizabeth Gray A. Hudson, PART 2,S (Tape 1 of 1)
DATE: 19 August 1998
PLACE: Boerne, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Diane Gray
TAPE 1, SIDE 1
G: This is Diane Gray, research associate at the Institute of Texan Cultures. I'm here to interview Elizabeth Hudson of Boerne, Texas, who will tell me about her grandfather, George Disney Gray, an immigrant from England. The time now is 3:30 and it's Wednesday, August 19th, 1998. Well, Elizabeth, your grandfather, George Disney Gray, led an interesting life and I'd like you to tell us about that please.
H: All right. He was born in London on March the 17th, 1865, and he's included in the genealogy which I handed you. He was the son of John Gray and Annie Disney Gray, both of London. We've not been able to find his birth records, because John Gray is a very common name in London. Annie Disney is a very common name. So, although we went over to try to find it, we weren't successful. I do not know whether this piece of information is truthful or not, but it is one report that we got. And that was that his father Elizabeth Gray Hudson 2
owned a tobacco shop and he sent George over to the east coast of the United States - his son George - to buy H: tobacco for him. However, George, his son George Disney, came to Texas when he was sixteen years old, so I don't know how many times he'd traveled to the east coast of the United States to buy tobacco. His...apparently John Gray, the father, was an alcoholic, and my grandfather George Disney, ran away from home. He stowed away on a ship to come to the United States. I suppose he was headed for Texas when he left England, but I'm not sure. The captain caught him on the ship and he liked him and so he made a cabin boy out of him. And he got to take the food to the captain. He told the story that the chef had ruined one of the meals and asked him, George, to take it to the captain. The captain was upset and he dressed down the chef about having received a spoiled meal. Now then, when George arrived – he...he arrived in Galveston in 1881 - and probably came by way of New York. Being an adventurer, he traveled into Mexico and Texas, never settling, enjoying a trail drive up the western trail, in the spring of 1882, to Dodge City. It is believed that he may have joined the trail either at Beeville or Brownsville. He returned to Boerne and worked on W.G. Kingsbury's ranch. Now, another report is that he worked in Kingsbury's office in London, but again, I say he was sixteen years old and I don't know Elizabeth Gray Hudson 3
how many jobs he held before he came to Texas, 'cause he did come when he was about sixteen years old. But he returned to Boerne and worked on the Kingsbury's ranch just south of H: Boerne. In 1883, which was a year or so later, he worked for the T Ranch at the headquarters of Dove Creek. And I'm not sure exactly where that is. I think that may be up in the Kerrville area. And they hired him as a wrangler. He traveled with a trainload of cattle to Chicago.
G: Yeah?
H: Uh-huh. Now then, let me see if I can find the name of the company here. For the next four years the Norcross Brothers, a contracting firm, hired him to work in several mid-western cities. He helped to build the old library in Chicago.
G: Yeah?
H: Uh-huh. And the Merchant's Bridge across the Mississippi at St. Louis. Those are two of the cities that he worked in. When he was in Chicago he met and married Ida Emma Dutschke. And that's D-u-t-s-c-h-k-e. And she was born in Chicago on June 7, 1860. They were married June 13, 1888, and moved to St. Louis.
G: Okay.
H: Three children were born in St. Louis: John Disney, Ida Emma and Grace Selma. Now let me see, I have some information. Then they moved to New Orleans, and he went Elizabeth Gray Hudson 4
into contracting, contract building, teaching himself blueprinting. And they had a son, George Leander who was born in New Orleans.
G: Uh. All right.
H: There is a story that he constructed a building in New Orleans that fell, which may be the reason he left New Orleans. But let's not get out of New Orleans yet. While he was in New Orleans he took a job working on the building of the railroad to South America, down through Central America to South America.
G: Really?
H: And on that trip he taught himself, or he learned, surveying. So he did surveying and that's significant, so I wanted to mention it here.
G: Okay.
H: This is where he learned building - working for that railroad into South America. And then he moved his family to Boerne. And this was in 1896. And he bought the Lamm - L-a-m-m - Farm and that's where they always lived. There, two more children were born: Ann Laurie - L-a-u-r-i-e - and Alfred - with no middle name. And that was my father. Alfred was born in 1901. And I don't know if you want any dates on the others; I'm just trying to give you some kind of an idea of where we are in history.
G: Okay.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 5
H: Now, then, and I called him Grandpa and so I may refer to him as that. He was county surveyor, see, because of the surveying experience.
G: What county is this?
H: That's Kendall County.
G: Okay. All right.
H: He was County Surveyor from 1904 to 1908. And, of course, you know, these perfectionists - he was unhappy with some of the field notes, so he re-surveyed every piece of property in Kendall County while he was the county surveyor. Okay, and then he worked in the...as a deputy district and county clerk. I'm sorry, let me back up.
G: Okay.
H: He was employed - yes, that's right - as a deputy district and county clerk under John Reinhardt, who was the district and county clerk, until 1918. All right, now then, so far as his livelihood. He entered the dairy, horticulture and poultry business. Now let me see where I am.
G: Dairy, horticulture and poultry.
H: Poultry, uh-huh. And I have some pictures of dairy cattle. He was quite successful in his poultry business, because he had prize-winning white Leghorn chickens and was ...won the award for one of his hens that produced 365 eggs in 365 days.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 6
G: Wow.
H: That was around the year; around the calendar.
G: It was.
H: Yeah. In, oh, the mid-19-teens, let's say, because the children were all still at home, the Gray’s served chicken dinners on Sundays, and prominent people from San Antonio H: would drive to Boerne for chicken dinner on Sunday. And they served it out under the trees.
G: Really now?
H: I have some pictures of the property here. He carried on experimental horticulture for Texas A & M.
G: Oh, really?
H: Particularly in the area of flowers. When I was in high school he did experimental work with gladiolas. He had pecans and dewberries and, later, boysenberries.
G: And those were for market? Those were...
H: Uh-huh. To be marketed. In addition, he was a charter member of the Masonic Lodge in Boerne.
G: Did he ever hold an office?
H: I don't have any records of whether he did or didn't. And his wife and three daughters belonged to the Eastern Star.
G: What's that?
H: It's the women's branch of the Masonic - Masonic is male and the women belong to the Eastern Star. I don't knowElizabeth Gray Hudson 7
much about the work, because I never...I never was a member of the Eastern Star. Now, both my grandfathers were Masons, although my mother's father never really was active with it. But the Gray’s were.
G: Yeah. Okay.
H: During the Depression he worked for...worked in governmental programs. And I don't know whether it was WPA, H: or what those programs were. But he arranged for food distribution during the Depression. Now, he worked out of the courthouse or in that area, as best I remember. And I...let's see, that was the food program, and I believe it was on one of these programs that he took all the information. Oh, well, one thing I might mention is when he was the deputy in the county clerk's office, he set up the record - the index. And all of the original recordings of the properties and the owners and what-not is in his handwriting; he had beautiful handwriting. And they are all in his...up to a certain period, and so I believe that... because he was interested in the deed records and taking care of them and that they be in good order. Now then, I believe it was in the 1930s - that is one of the Depression programs - that he drew the map of the county and it hangs on the wall in the courthouse.
G: Oh, you're showing me a picture from The Hill Country Recorder... Elizabeth Gray Hudson 8
H: Uh-huh.
G: Wednesday, March 16th, 1994, page 19, and it's a photograph of him.
H: Now he's not here. I mean this was taken in...'cause he was dead; he died in...well, he died in '56. This was in '94.
G: So this is...
H: But this is his map and these are his descendants that H: live in Boerne.
G: Okay.
H: But what he did when he re-surveyed all the land, he cut each piece of property...a pattern of each piece of property out and he put them all...fitted them all together in jigsaw fashion until they all matched. And when they didn't match he'd go back and re-survey, until he got the notes so that they would match.
G: Uh-huh.
H: Well, he used that information when he drew the map of the county. And on the map it said that he also used the tax rolls of 1935, so it must have been in '35 that he constructed it. Yeah. But that's one of the things that he has contributed to the county, is the record of their records of their land. My grandmother died...my grandmother died, that's Ida Emma, died in 1940, and he re-married in 1944. He married Lillian Hitchcock, a widow. And he moved Elizabeth Gray Hudson 9
to San Antonio and lived here until his death in September of 1956. Sold the farm.
G: So he had the farm all that time?
H: Yes. Now then, I have pictures of...let me start with ...
G: All right, let's take a look at some of your photographs.
H: All right. This is his father and mother. That's John Gray and Annie Disney Gray. Disney was her maiden name.
G: Uh-huh.
H: And those were probably taken in London.
G: He and Annie Disney had returned to London?
H: I think they always lived in London.
G: Oh, yes, they did, yeah, they did. You're right. Those were his parents.
H: Those are George Disney's parents.
G: Okay.
H: All right. Now this is the record that my grandfather, George Disney, kept in the family Bible.
G: Oh, boy.
H: Of the marriage and the birth of all the children.
G: And his handwriting is impeccable. Oh, my, oh, my. That is beautiful.
H: Now, I could not find my copies of the children in the family. I have copies of them. And recently my house had Elizabeth Gray Hudson 10
to be in upheaval, so I have misplaced my pictures. So this morning I went to my brother and asked him to give me what I'm going to show you now. He took pictures of the family and made them up into a large-framed display. And so we couldn't...I could not get it photocopied in total in Boerne this morning.
G: Oh, okay.
H: And so we did it in pieces. These are my grandfather and grandmother.
G: Oh, yes.
H: This is George Disney and Ida Emma. And then these are the children: this is John Disney, the oldest one, Ida Emma, and they called her Ida, this is Grace Selma. And she died fairly young. Her son was, I think, four or five years old when she died.
G: Oh, yes.
H: This is George Leander, the next one.
G: The one born in New Orleans.
H: In New Orleans. And these two born in Boerne, this is Annie - Annie Laurie, she always signed it Ann Laurie - and this is my father, Alfred, with no middle name. And when we photocopied this they didn't get his name because of the way the machinery didn't allow that.
G: Yes.
H: But I debated...I didn't really have time to cut these Elizabeth Gray Hudson 11
apart.
G: Yes.
H: But I wanted you all to have those, or at least copy of this so you can have them if you want to.
G: Oh, I would like to. Yes. Thank you.
H: Wait a minute, I don't want to put it back there now; I won't forget to give it to you. Now, I have pictures of the ...his Valley Farm which is what they called their property, their farm in Boerne.
G: So when he had bought Lamm Farm, he called it Valley Farm?
H: Valley Farm. He re-named it.
G: Good.
H: And this is the house.
G: A wooden structure. It's got lots of rooms in it.
H: Yes.
G: Yeah. Okay.
H: I think the boys slept upstairs.
G: Yeah.
H: This is the...this was the last...if you will look closely, this middle section is rock and, I don't know, I suspect maybe there was a rock structure there and they built on to it.
G: It might have been the original...the original structure. Yeah. Elizabeth Gray Hudson 12
H: Uh-huh. I don't ever remember having heard them say that they had built on to anything, though.
G: Yeah.
H: But it is a different construction. This is the fireplace. This end was the last part built, and it was the living room.
G: Okay.
H: This is the fireplace that was built into the living room. And this is the inside of this window there, where my grandmother kept plants and what-not.
G: Oh, my. It's a large atrium window.
H: Uh-huh.
G: There in the back of the house, under the porch, under where the boys slept.
H: Right.
G: Yeah. Isn't that beautiful? Can I make photocopies of this?
H: Yes. Uh-huh.
G: Did he build the house?
H: I think he did, probably with the help of the boys; they probably added on. This is the Menger Creek which runs on the property.
G: Uh-huh.
H: And there...this is Uncle George and Aunt Ida and Aunt Grace, in a canoe on the little stream. There it is frozen Elizabeth Gray Hudson 13
in the winter time. Here, this is the swimming hole, which is that same stream.
G: Uh-huh.
H: It's just a little bit farther up on the creek. This is taken of the children on the bank of the swimming pool. And here's a gathering of some group of people. It says, “On the banks of Menger Creek at Valley Farm.” It's a gathering of people. I'm sure the family members are in there, but I can't identify all of them. And there are more people than just family. So...
G: Maybe that's one of those Sunday chicken people.
H: Yeah.
G: Or group of people.
H: I thought that somewhere we had a picture of the table set up under the tree, but I couldn't find it. This is the swing under the big tree.
G: It's a lady - a lady sitting there swinging.
H: Yes it was...it wasn't like a child's swing.
G: Yes.
H: An adult's swing, and I think there are two sides to it and you swung back and forth.
G: Lady in a wicker chair next to them.
H: Uh-huh. And this is the woodpile, with...I guess that's Aunt Annie sitting in front of it. Aunt Annie never married.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 14
G: No?
H: And Uncle Disney. Uncle Disney was spastic, and he never married. ...[inaudible]... more pictures ...[inaudible].
G: These pictures by the Menger Creek, what year do you think that is?
H: Oh, those are probably before the kids married, so I would say in late...middle to late 19-teens.
G: Okay. Very good.
H: Okay. Now let's see, there was another group of pictures that...I had some agricultural pictures here.
G: Okay.
H: Here we go. They had at least one goat.
G: There it is.
H: I never heard them talking about raising goats, but Aunt Annie is sitting there with that goat. Here's...here are the sheep and they are shearing. And this is my daddy here, the little one.
G: Helping out.
H: Helping out. These are the chicken pens, behind that group picture.
G: The famous prize-winning chickens.
H: Uh-huh. I have another picture. Here...here they are.
G: Oh, and there are the chickens. Yeah.
H: And these are the cows, with one horse. And here are a Elizabeth Gray Hudson 15
couple of other horses.
G: Very nice. How many acres was Valley Farm?
H: I really don't know. I don't know that I've ever heard. Here are some more chickens. And here, these are really good pictures of the chickens.
G: Yeah.
H: Here they are plowing.
G: Three horses. That was a tough field that day.
H: And another picture of sheep.
G: Yes.
H: Here's Grandpa with what looks like pullets.
G: Do you want to explain for our listening audience what a pullet is?
H: A pullet is a...wish I knew...a pullet is a partly grown chicken.
G: There you go.
H: It's before they start laying, after they've molted and before they start laying. Before you can tell...I guess you can tell whether they're male and female; I can't.
G: Uh-huh.
H: But, let's see, I gave you one like that I think. Did I mention that he had the largest hatchery in the county?
G: No. Unh-huh.
H: The first large hatchery in the county.
G: The first and largest?Elizabeth Gray Hudson 16
H: Uh-huh. And really had a big business in hatching...in hatching. And he would send, you know...they would send them off to...people would buy them and they would send them on the train.
G: Uh-huh.
H: It was a big business.
G: He was a very good businessman.
H: Well, he really wasn't as good a businessman as he might have been.
G: Oh. Oh, there he is.
H: There he is. That's the same picture that...and these are, I think, they're wedding pictures. Okay. So that's George Disney and Ida Emma Dutschke.
G: Is that a Polish name that she had?
H: Uh, she came from either Bavaria or one of her parents came from Bavaria and the other one came from Germany near H: The Polish border.
G: Okay.
H: And so I believe that it was probably Dutschke that came from Germany near the Polish border, because I think the "ke" on the end of it - the Dutschke - indicates Polish.
G: Yeah. These are their wedding pictures?
H: That's their wedding picture.
G: And the other picture that I'm holding where he's older ... Elizabeth Gray Hudson 17
H: Uh-huh.
G: How old do you think he is in this picture?
H: Oh, that was probably taken in the '20s or '30s. I'm trying to think what the occasion might have been for their having that picture made, because they didn't take pictures ...have photographs taken very often. Apparently they were too poor for that.
G: Yeah.
H: And here he is as an older man, and I have a colored picture taken - this is after he moved to San Antonio.
G: Oh, okay. And he moved to San Antonio in...?
H: '44.
G: '44.
H: Uh-huh. These are more pictures taken on the farm. Here's the old buggy.
G: Now, let's see. Let's keep your pictures straight. Here's your agriculture.
H: And that's just the place.
G: Yeah. Okay.
H: Valley Farm. Here's the buggy.
G: Oh, she's in her buggy.
H: Uh-huh.
G: He is.
H: That's probably Uncle George. And here's the car. They have a new car and so they've got to have their pictureElizabeth Gray Hudson 18
made in the car. Everybody piles in.
G: Yeah. Wonder what kind of car that is?
H: I don't know.
G: We don't know. But it's large. Big wheels.
H: And the children went to the Hastings School. Now, one thing I might mention is that the center of the English settlement, that is the place where people gathered, was Hastings. Now when you read this George...William George Hughes book - Hastings was on their property. And it was named Hastings after William or Willie, or George Hughes' father's name was Hastings and so he named that place Hastings. And it was the center of the English activities of the English settlement. It had a post office and a school.
G: Hastings was a town?
H: Well, it was...I can't say anymore than it was just the center - I don't think they had a store - just a post office and the stagecoach stopped there.
G: Yeah.
H: And they had the school. It was probably a quarter of a mile from the post office, but it was still on the Hughes' property.
G: Okay.
H: And this is where all the Grays went to school.
G: Okay.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 19
H: Daddy's the little one.
G: Are these all the Gray children?
H: No. Here's daddy down here; here's daddy.
G: Yeah.
H: This is, let me see, this is...I can't see Aunt Ida - she was...Uncle Disney and Aunt Ida aren't in here. But here is Aunt Grace. She's the tallest one. And there's Uncle George.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1
SIDE 2
H: ... [inaudible] T-O-L-K. And she was from...she was a descendant of a Scottish family.
G: Was she?
H: Uh-huh. The Guthrie Family. All right. Now then. These are some pictures of the children and grandchildren.
G: Okay.
H: This is Aunt Annie. She was a nurse during World War I. She trained in San Antonio. And this...she lived her... most of her adult life in Chicago. This was taken in
H: Chicago. She was a milliner.
G: Uh-huh.
H: And a market research clerk.
G: Oh, and she's standing in front of her sign - Ann Gray ...
H: Oh.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 20
G: Can you see this?
H: Yes, I had never read the sign.
G: Oh.
H: Well, as a matter of fact, I've only, just for this purpose dug these out of some of her...yeah. Millinery... some of her papers.
G: Uh-huh.
H: That hasn't been...that's not a familiar picture to me, long term. I'll just keep these here.
G: Okay.
H: This is Aunt Ida.
G: All right.
H: And this is...these are probably during World War I, and I don't think I brought any of them. But there are pictures - numbers of pictures with the boys, the soldiers who went out to the farm and visited.
G: Yeah.
H: Yeah. This is Uncle George in his uniform. And I've got a picture of Daddy in his uniform, but I've got it in another folder. This is Aunt Ida and Uncle Disney and this H: is my sister and me.
G: Yeah.
H: This is Uncle Disney as a baby. And this is Daddy ...[inaudible] - it's on that...that group...that family group picture, the family pictures. Elizabeth Gray Hudson 21
G: Okay.
H: Yeah. He's the little one, yeah, uh-huh.
G: That's right.
H: Uh-huh. All right. This is Gray, who was the oldest grandchild. His name is George Gray [name inaudible], he's Aunt Grace's son. And that's his picture. He is, gosh, he's a craftsman.
G: Is he?
H: Really. Makes jewelry, can do anything with wood and metal, is a prime mover in the Agricultural Museum in Boerne.
G: So a lot of your family has stayed in the Boerne area?
H: Yes, uh-huh. Okay.
G: I'm going to photocopy this one.
H: Okay. All right. Daddy was a carpenter. My daddy was a carpenter. Well, Granddaddy was a carpenter too. And they, you know, they seemed to have skills in woodworking and metalworking. My brother is an excellent builder of, like, homes and we just re-furbished the home that we grew up in in Boerne.
G: Did you?
H: Uh-huh. But he's the one that masterminds all of that. He's very, very skilled in that area. He and Gray both work wood. And, you know, making items out of wood - cabinetmakers or what-not.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 22
G: So Gray does it for a living?
H: No.
G: No?
H: No. For a living he was a machinist at...well, he was in World War II...
G: Yeah.
H: ...and came back for health reasons - he was discharged from the Marine Corps. He was in the Pacific and came home with malaria and dengue fever and rheumatic fever, and he was discharged. And his work was really working with automobiles, vehicles and what-not in the Marines, and he had an auto shop when he first came out of the Marines. He retired from Kelly Field as a machinist, repairing aircraft that came in.
G: Okay.
H: And he was head of the shop. Yeah, over it, manager of it. So, now then, what did I...here I wanted to show you a picture of Daddy in his...
G: Okay.
H: Now this is my family that I was born into.
G: Okay.
H: Here's Daddy in his uniform, World War I.
G: So that's your father, Alfred?
H: Alfred. Uh-huh.
G: Alfred, no middle name.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 23
H: No middle name. Well, here we are in Cascade Cavern.
G: ...[inaudible].
H: And Daddy had a dairy in the '30s, that went down under - it went under with the Depression.
G: Oh really?
H: Uh-huh. It was Gray...[inaudible] Dairy was the name of it.
G: Okay.
H: And here he is as a...after he retired.
G: Uh-huh.
H: That was on the city...he was on the city council. This is the house we lived in in Boerne, which we've just re-furbished. This is my Mother and Daddy at, really, at my brother's wedding.
G: Uh-huh.
H: That...and neither of them ever had photographs taken. These were, you know, taken out of the wedding picture. But that's what they looked like as adults.
G: Yes.
H: This is my brother as a teenager.
G: Uh-huh. What's his name?
H: His name is Alfred Gordon.
G: Uh-huh.
H: Gray. This is my sister. Oh, let me get this other picture...[inaudible] here we are - twins.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 24
G: Oh, yeah.
H: This is my sister, Edith Mary, and Elizabeth Ann.
G: Well.
H: We were twenty-one years old.
G: That could be the same picture twice. My goodness.
H: But...[inaudible]that's about it. Anything else?
G: You have very strong British lines and particularly English lines.
H: Oh, yes.
G: That's for sure. English and then all that Scottish. Just marvelous.
H: Oh, the Scottish. You know the Scottish history is really interesting.
G: Yeah.
H: And did you want any of the farm pictures or not?
G: No, I've got what I want. Thank you.
H: Okay. Okay. I think that's all I've got.
G: Yeah. And with George Disney Gray, your grandfather, traveling so much you're not aware of when he was naturalized?
H: I cannot find any information whether he ever was.
G: Oh, we don't even know.
H: I suspect that he was, because I don't think there was any reason why he wouldn't want to be. But they did make
H: the joke, when he signed the papers for my other Elizabeth Gray Hudson 25
grandfather, that he was not naturalized. But, you see, he lived in Boerne ever after that. So why he was not...but there's no record. I went to the courthouse Monday and there's no record.
G: He signed that when he was the deputy district and county clerk?
H: Possibly. Because it was in what...
G: 1908 - well, up to 1918.
H: But what's the date - oh, you don't have that, my other grandfather's naturalization paper has a date on it. What was that? Oh six - 1906.
G: 1906.
H: And see Grandpa then, my Grandpa Gray, was a surveyor at that time. Okay.
G: For the sake of those listening, she...both of her grandfathers...both of Mrs. Hudson's grandfathers came from England, came from London. And we've been discussing George Disney Gray, but at the same time her maternal grandfather, Alfred Gordon Gilliat, was also in Boerne, had come to Texas as an immigrant and settled in these parts. And it was noted that George Disney Gray's signature is on Alfred Gordon Gilliat's papers of naturalization. But we don't know why.
H: Of course, they knew one another, you know.
G: Yeah.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 26
H: It was such a small community.
G: And as far as any English cultural habits or traditions, did Grandpa Gray bring any of those with him that you can recall?
H: Not many. He really was not much of a traditionalist, not like the other side of the family. And, you know, having run away from home when he was sixteen years old, and never cared to contact his family. He did have a sister, I'll take that back. He did have a sister named Emma, who came to San Antonio in...it must have been the early 1900s. And she was a registered nurse.
G: Yeah.
H: She's buried here in San Antonio.
G: Is she now?
H: Uh-huh.
G: So she stayed when she came?
H: Yes, uh-huh. And she never married.
G: Did she live with him?
H: No. She lived in San Antonio. They had a friend who was an osteopath, Dr. Charlotte Strohm; she was an osteopath, and she visited out at the farm quite frequently and helped take care of my grandmother when she was old. And apparently Aunt Emma worked with her, with Dr. Strohm, in San Antonio.
G: I sure appreciate you talking with me about your Elizabeth Gray Hudson 27
Grandpa Gray.
H: Well, thank you.
G: What a nice gentleman.
H: Thank you for asking me.
G: Yeah. Well, I will then close this interview. It's 4:15, on August 19th, 1998. Thank you Mrs. Hudson.
H: Okay.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2.THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: Grandfather Alfred Gordan Gilliat
INTERVIEW WITH: Elizabeth Gray Hudson (Tape 1 of 1)
DATE: 19 August 1998
PLACE: 106 Fawn Lane, Boerne Tx, 78006
INTERVIEWER: Diane Gray
TAPE 1, SIDE 1
G: This is Diane Gray on Wednesday afternoon August 19th, 1998. It's 2:15 p.m., and I'm at the Institute of Texan Cultures, in my office, with Mrs. Elizabeth Hudson, who has come to speak with me and tell me stories of both of her grandfathers, who were both English immigrants to Texas. And she will speak on this tape about her grandfather Alfred Gordan Gilliat. Mrs. Hudson, tell me about your grandfather.
H: All right. My grandfather, Alfred Gordan Gilliat, was born in London, England, on November 18th, 1850. One unfortunate situation was that prior to the doctor visiting his mother for her delivery he had visited another home where there was scarlet fever, and he did in fact carry the scarlet fever to this birth. My grandfather's mother, Emma Lett Clowes, that's L-e-t-t C-l-o-u-s-e, I'm sorry, C-l-o-w-e-s - I'm sorry about that spelling - and she was married to Alfred Gilliat, no middle name. His mother, Emma, died about - oh, twelve to sixteen days later of scarlet fever. Elizabeth Gray Hudson 2
He, of course, contracted it also and had such high fever
H: that both ear drums burst and he was deaf for the rest of his life. His father re-married, later. However - and this is a picture of his mother, if you're interested in this.
G: Is this a tintype as well?
H: I don't think so, it's on paper.
G: Oh, okay. She's showing me a photograph of young Emma Lett Clowes, in a beautiful gown. Yes.
H: And this is his father with Alfred Gordan at a young age. And, of course, the boys were in dresses and so it's difficult to tell much about...I would say he's probably two years old.
G: Okay.
H: And this is a picture of Alfred Gordan in his baptismal dress. That's a tintype.
G: This one is a tintype and he's about two years old, in a white baptismal dress. He's a very attractive little fellow.
H: Because he was deaf, his father sent him to Brussels, in Belgium, and in France, I'm not sure where, and in Germany, for his schooling. He had an excellent schooling. In Belgium, that school was supposed to be the finest school in the world for educating the deaf. In later years he was able to talk on the telephone. He was not totally deaf, butElizabeth Gray Hudson 3
he could not abide earphones.
G: Hearing aids?
H: Hearing aids. He did use earphones. He listened to the radio. So there was some hearing, but he did, of course, lip reading. All right. When Alfred Gordan finished his schooling he went back to England, and the only employment he found was as a banker. He chose not to make his life's work banking, and wanted to come to Texas to be a cowboy. He landed in Galveston. He was eighteen years old, he came in 1878. [Note: Discrepancy? B: l850. 18 yrs. old when he immigrated. Date of arrival Galveston given as l878? - R.Connors]. One of the...within the first year he chose to go on a cattle drive, joined at the trail at Beeville, and went up the western trail. He was somewhat of an adventurer. Between 1878 and 1884 he wandered around a bit before settling in Boerne, in the Boerne area. Although Michael Glen Turquand - T-u-r-q-u-a-n-d - was an Englishman who owned land in Boerne and was well-known in England for promoting sports. And many English families that came to the Boerne area either stayed with, or were directed by, the Turquand family before they settled into a place for themselves. In 1884, in the Boerne area, he ran a ranch for another family.
G: Mr. Turquand or your grandfather?
H: I'm sorry, my grandfather, Alfred Gordan Gilliat. I'll Elizabeth Gray Hudson 4
talk about Mr. Turquand, maybe, later on, I have something else to say about him.
G: Okay.
H: But we're going to talk mainly about my grandfather now. The ranch was a large ranch. It was owned by Baron Von Brandenstein - Brandenstein, I believe some people call it - and he had a wife and child, but he did not live on the property because the house was not finished. They had built the cellar of stone and constructed a couple of stone walls. Lumber was hard to come by, and so that's one reason that the house had never been completed, although the windows had been framed in. But they had canvas for roof, and the canvas caught fire, and so the building burned. There was a roll-top desk and a maple table in the house, and those were the only two pieces of furniture that were saved. And they had to break the handles off the drawers in the desk to get it out the door. They had to turn the maple table over on its side to get it out - it was set for dinner - and they had to turn it over on its side to get it out the door, and when they did, all the silver - silverware - fell into the fire and when it was over they found the silver had just...
a lump of metal.
G: Now this is your grandfather and his family?
H: No. My grandfather was not married at that point. He was working for the Von BrandensteinsElizabeth Gray Hudson 5
G: Was he living in the house?
H: We're not sure. We think that because the Von Brandenstein family did not live there all the time, that he lived there when the family was not there. And I'm not sure H: where they lived - whether they lived in Boerne, in San Antonio and only came up on occasion or what. But they were there part of the time. And then he stayed in the house when the family was not there, before the place...before the house burned. And, following that, my grandfather, whom we affectionately call "Pop-pops," so I might come up with that name on occasion...
G: Pop-pop.
H: Pop-pop.
G: Okay.
H: ...took care of the place. And when he wasn't staying on the property he stayed with another English family, the Kings, up the upper Cibolo Road. He had...he regularly wrote in diaries, but the early ones were lost in the fire, so we don't have them. He did manage ranch hands that came and worked on the ranch; he was in charge of them because there are his records in his diaries about having paid them. And we're sure he was paying them for the owner of the ranch.
G: Did the ranch have a name? Brandenstein's ranch?
H: Not that I know of. I'm looking at my notes, Elizabeth Gray Hudson 6
...[inaudible] my periods are here. All right. I have a description of the house after they began to re-build it, but I don't know that that's important now.
G: Did he help them, the Brandensteins, re-build the house?
H: No, the wife was so very disillusioned that they left, and I believe that St. Helena's Episcopal Church records show that they moved to Denver. But they did not stay around. He was in contact with them until about 1892 or 3. Now I've gotten some of this information from my cousin, Alfred McDonald Gilliat Jr., who is very...in fact he now owns the ranch, but he has helped me fill in some of this information. About...he says that the Von Brandensteins sold the ranch several times, and the people who were purchasing it were not able to make the payments and so it came back. In 19...in 1892 or 3, my grandfather received word from London that his mother's estate was being settled, and so he, in fact, did go back to London at that time, and with the money from the settlement he bought the ranch.
G: Oh, he did?
H: Yes. He bought the ranch. Now the activity that was carried on with the ranch - on the ranch - from the time that he was first associated with it and continuing on. It was about three-and-a-half or four miles from Boerne and what they did was to pasture animals that belonged to BoerneElizabeth Gray Hudson 7
families when they were out of season. And so they would pasture horses and cows. And that was what he did, was to look out after those animals and care for them. We believe that that did continue after he bought the ranch, although it was a decreasing activity because he began to develop the ranch itself. And he cleared the fields by hand, with a
H: grubbing hoe and, in the end, had six fields, a total of a hundred and seventy-eight acres of fields - land. I'm sorry, a total of three hundred and seventy-eight acres. One of them was a hundred and seventy-eight and then the others made up the rest of that. It was...had more land in cultivation than any other ranch in the Boerne area at the time he died, in 1936.
G: Would you say he was both farmer and rancher then?
H: I suppose.
G: Yes? Can you mix those two?
H: I don't know. He did not want to have sheep and goats because he wanted to be a cowboy, and so it was cows and horses. He raised his own feed and sold it, and did custom work with equipment, when he started to buy equipment. He did custom field work for other people. I feel like I have missed something here.
G: Did he have a large cattle herd?
H: Here it is.
G: Do you recall?Elizabeth Gray Hudson 8
H: No. Not really. Really, he did more raising of feed stuffs, which he used, of course, to feed the animals that he pastured. And then he sold some of it. Used some for his own purposes, but I don't think he ever had a large herd. I think it was primarily for marketing.
G: Okay.
H: Now then, the first piece of equipment he bought was a H: combine, and it cut and threshed the grain - the hay.
G: Was he the first in his area to have a combine?
H: Yes. He was the first to have almost every piece of equipment he bought, but he believed that he would not be successful, that any rancher/farmer would not be successful, without going into mechanization. So as soon as that was available he began to invest in it. He then bought a - well, he had several tractors - and I have a picture of one of his big tractors.
G: Then his ranch must have been doing pretty well that he could afford these machines?
H: Oh, yes. He was very successful.
G: He was successful.
H: Yes, he was very successful. In time he bought a corn-sheller. He bought - where did Mac tell me that? - he bought a...did I say corn-sheller?...an oat-clipper. He... to clean the oats, the oat seed in the spelt, for planting. He actually planted oats, barley, wheat, rye and spelts.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 9
G: What was the last one?
H: S-p-e-l-t-s. Spelts. And he did plant some cane, which was topped by hand and then combined, and made some molasses from sorghum. That wasn't an extensive activity.
G: Was he married at this time?
H: Yes, by the time he was developing that.
G: Now, then, let me get on to his marriage. He married, in 1896, to Eliza Mary Stephen, S-t-e-p-h-e-n, McDonald?
H: that was his wife? And they had two children - my mother, Edith Agnes Gilliat, and her brother, Alfred McDonald. Now Edith Agnes was born in 1898 and Alfred was born in 1900; they were both born on the ranch.
G: Do you happen to know if Grandfather Gilliat's wife was English?
H: She was the Scottish grandmother.
G: She was Scottish - with the name McDonald!
H: Right.
G: How wonderful.
H: And we believe that, well, they lived in San Antonio and there...because of the climate. Frequently in the summertime people from the coast, from San Antonio, would come to Boerne because it was cooler. And they would come...Boerne had quite a business in summer residential facilities, from early on. And they stayed with a family in Boerne, and I believe they met at church, I'm not sure, at Elizabeth Gray Hudson 10
St. Helena's Episcopal Church, because they were both Episcopalians. Okay...
G: Let me ask you a question about the family living on the ranch now. Had he given it a name?
H: It has never been known as anything except the Gilliat Ranch.
G: Really?
H: Uh-huh.
G: And did he re-build a ranch house for his family to
G: live in?
H: Just...they did re-build some rooms, and maybe a room that served as a kitchen and a dining room, and a room that served as a bedroom/living room. And he maintained a bachelor quarter there and some of the English - young Englishmen that worked on the ranch with him, for him - lived there. So it was really a bachelor's quarters. When my grandmother... [laughter] my grandmother married, she was appalled at the condition of the house into which she was going to move. But her two brothers came...went up to Boerne and helped build another two rooms onto the house.
G: Oh, okay. So they finally had it completed?
H: Right. But it's an old ranch-style house. It has, in its finished state, it has a central hall and then it has two rooms on the north and two rooms on the south and a long porch on either side...Elizabeth Gray Hudson 11
G: Uh-huh.
H: ...which kept the house cool. And then, in the '30s, when my grandfather became ill, they built a bedroom on one end of the house where she stayed near my grandfather's bedroom - my grandmother stayed there. The...of course, he built large barns to keep the equipment in, and the big barn will hold fourteen and a half carloads of hay - up to the eaves, up to the edge of the roof. And they can get another six or eight carloads in the roof of the barn.
G: Really? That's huge.
H: It's huge.
G: Is it still standing?
H: Yes. It's not in good repair, but it's still standing. Now the cattle he had were Durham cows. They're like shorthorns, except they're black. And when his son had to take over the care of the ranch and then inherited it - this is Alfred McDonald - he did not like cows. And so he got rid of the cows, and from that point on it was sheep and goats, primarily. Yeah, primarily sheep.
G: So Alfred did what Grandfather Gilliat did not want to do?
H: Right.
G: Is have sheep and goats. And got rid of the cows.
H: Yes. And I don't know if there were too many goats; it was primarily sheep.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 12
G: Okay.
H: Now Mac says that the barn lot was designed to run a lot of horses. So, their...his biggest herd must have been horses. And they pastured pregnant animals and animals that were not being used. Okay.
G: Was he a very good record keeper, of his ranch business?
H: Oh, yes. Indeed, indeed.
G: What sort of records did he leave behind? H: Beg pardon?
G: What sort of records did he leave behind?
H: Well, I haven't seen them, but I know he had...he had books that he kept all of his financial information in. And he always kept a diary. Until the late...until almost 1920. We have diaries. In the later years the entries were not as extensive as they were earlier. He used to talk about going down bathing in the creek - you know, being glad that it was warm enough to go down to the creek and bathe. So after he married, of course...well, let me talk about his inheritance.
G: Okay.
H: In 1892 or 3, he...his mother's estate was settled and he went over to England and visited with the family, made a trip to Europe - I often wondered if he went back to visit his school. And then came back and bought it. He went... Elizabeth Gray Hudson 13
when my mother was - she was born in '98 - when she was about four or five years old, he took his family back over there to visit and they were there for almost six months before they came back.
G: Really?
H: Uh-huh. And they went to Scotland to visit her...his wife's family also. He was active with the Episcopal Church almost from the beginning. The church started in 1881, St. Helena's Episcopal Church. And I have written the history of the church; I will leave a copy of that with you.
G: Okay.
H: So almost as soon as he arrived there, he did
H: participate in church activities. And we found out a lot about recreation in Boerne, among the English, from his diaries. After church on Sundays they would go to one of the English families' homes. The families that had young girls would invite the single men home for dinner. And so they would...and then they would have tennis matches, and he was on the cricket team. I have a picture of the cricket team. I mentioned the Turquand Ranch. Mr. Turquand - it was Captain Turquand, if I'm not mistaken, was very much interested in sports, and polo was played on his ranch before it was played anywhere else in the United States.
G: Was it?
H: Yes. Elizabeth Gray Hudson 14
G: Did he raise the ponies himself?
H: They were raised in that area. And see, William George Hughes - you have this book on your desk - he raised and promoted the sale of the polo ponies in New York, but it was actually played in Boerne before it was ever taken to New York.
G: Oh, my!
H: You'll read that in there.
G: Okay. H: But Turquand was known in England as being interested in sports. And there's a man named Stanuell who actually settled in, on, and he's mentioned in the "Breaks of the Balcones," which is a book about English settlements on the H: down around Montell, on the Nueces River. But he came through Boerne first. And one reason he came to Boerne was because he read in the London paper about Turquand's ranch and the polo and he wanted to come and play. [laughter] That was his reason for coming to Boerne.
G: His name?
H: Stanuell. S-t-a-n-u-e-l-l.
G: Interesting.
H: But those were some of the activities that the Englishmen engaged in. Now my grandmother's family, from Scotland, introduced the Lancers, which is a dance, a British dance, and I assume they learned it in Scotland, Elizabeth Gray Hudson 15
since they came from Scotland. And it was first danced in the barn on the Gilliat Ranch, and then later adopted by the Pioneer Lancers as their official dance - the state organization, the Texas State Pioneer...
G: Really?
H: Yeah.
G: And what was the name of that dance?
H: L-a-n-c-e-r-s.
G: Scottish?
H: Well, I believe it was British. I mean, I won't say it was Scottish, although I believe that they had learned it in Scotland and they brought it over. But it is recorded in the Pioneer Museum - Pioneer Museum, with the Lancers - was a dancing organization. All right, let's see, we were
H: talking about recreation - oh, I was talking about the church, and so we got a lot of information when we were writing the church history out of his diaries. And he lay-read, even though he was deaf, when they had need of a lay-reader, he would lay-read in the church.
G: ...[inaudible].
H: He later became the junior warden and then the senior warden. And was senior warden for many years, from - I would say for ten years or more, through a very critical time in the life of St. Helena's. And of course, my grandmother, Eliza Mary - they called her Bessie - was Elizabeth Gray Hudson 16
president of the women's organization, the auxiliary. The stones...the stones that built the - I'm going to call it the 'new church', it was built in 1929. The first church was built in 1880. The new church, the second church, was built in 1929 and the stones came off of the Gilliat Ranch.
G: ...[inaudible].
H: And, incidentally, the stones that built the...put the addition on the courthouse came off the Gilliat Ranch. And he had them...he had them hauled in on flatbed wagons. And ...
G: So he was physically a part of the town, his culture and his life?
H: Oh, yes. A very important part. In downtown Boerne he built - let me show you some pictures here. Oh, here's the cricket game - there's the picture of the cricket game.
G: The Boerne Cricket Team. What year is this photograph?
H: It's about 18...as best we can tell about 1886 to '88, because of some of the people that are in there. And this is my grandfather holding the bat.
G: Oh, yes.
H: Here he is with my grandmother.
G: He's seated in a large chair.
H: I think it's a rocking chair.
G: It looks like a rocking chair. Dressed in a suit with a tie, and your grandmother looks very... Elizabeth Gray Hudson 17
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1
SIDE 2
G: ...of her father, of her grandfather and her grandmother. Pretty picture.
H: All right. Here are some pictures of the agricultural activity on the ranch. There's the big tractor.
G: Oh, it is a big tractor! Got somebody standing in the wheel.
H: Is that a child? One of the children?
G: Yes. Yes.
H: Oh, that's Uncle Alfred, because here's my mother over here. That's Uncle Alfred standing in the wheel. All right, this is the combine, cutting the hay, and this is the ...that's threshing.
G: Wonderful field pictures.
H: Now I believe that there are some pictures on file
H: here. Because - when did we do that? Sometime after we wrote the history of the church - my sister and I wrote the history of the church - oh, I think it was...they were looking for pictures of agriculture, and I believe we've got some on file here, and I may have a record of that with me today. All right, now then, one of the...and this is the front of the house.
G: This is how it was eventually re-built?
H: Yes, this is the...and see now it has screening all Elizabeth Gray Hudson 18
along this porch.
G: Lots of screen porch, yeah.
H: Uh-huh. Along the front. This is a snow picture.
G: Uh-huh.
H: And it doesn't say, but I think that was around 1910 or '12 or something. They had a big snowstorm. I have - maybe this is it - this isn't a good picture but this is the picture of the house.
G: What year is this photograph taken? Do you know?
H: Let's see, that looks like it's got people on the porch. That must have been, I would say, in the early, in the 19, early 1900s or 1910.
G: That's a very admirable structure; it's tall.
H: Well, at first, after they married, they built this part here, this lower part here. Then when his mother-in-law came to live with them, they built the upstairs. There's a bedroom on either end, and then there's the...it
H: has the three dormers and in the middle was the room that they actually used to store...it had...it was full of cabinets and they stored magazines and books in there. And the stairwell came out of that middle room there and went downstairs. Now then, here, finally, in looking for those other pictures I found what I've just described. These...he developed, owned, land in town and developed it. This was the first building...well, first, the first piece he bought Elizabeth Gray Hudson 19
really was the Kendall Inn.
G: He did?
H: And he owned it for, oh, three or four years. We think it was only for investment purposes and that was around 1904, '05, '06. Put in the first bathtub and rugs; they hadn't had that before. Then this is the Carstanjen Building, it's got...the name up here is - Rudolph - R-u-d period Carstanjen - C-a-r-s-t-a-n-j-e-n. And this building was built in 1901. And he bought it, probably, around 1908 or '10.
G: It's a commercial building?
H: Yes. Now we believe that the Carstanjen family lived upstairs originally. And it had a porch upstairs in the front with iron railing around it, and I actually now own the iron railing.
G: Oh, you do?
H: Uh-huh. But that was taken off some time - you can see these long...they look like long windows, but actually those
H: were doorways...
G: Yes.
H: ...out on to the porch. And so he bought that building. He bought a building on the other side of Main Street. This is on the plaza. Are you familiar with Boerne?
G: Um, a little bit.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 20
H: Okay. The central plaza's here.
G: Here.
H: And this is the side street between the plaza and this building.
G: It's a stone structure. Was this part of his stone from the Gilliat Ranch?
H: No, no. That was Mr. Carstanjen built that.
G: Okay. What did your grandfather use this building for?
H: A commercial building. He just always leased it out.
G: Did he?
H: Uh-huh. Now when I was...I was born in 1927 and I remember it being a drugstore. It was Leveson's Drugstore first, and then it was William's Drugstore, and then it was Ebner's Drugstore. And then Mr. Ebner bought the property across the street and built his own drugstore. So at that point it became an antique/boutique - you know, shop of one kind or another. But these buildings extend south from the Carstanjen building, and I believe that there were some frame structures in here. But he actually built - one, two, H: three, four, six or seven business places down Main Street, to the south of the Carstanjen building, and all of these are of stone from the Gilliat Ranch.
G: Are they?
H: Uh-huh. And so...and these are still in the family. We still own these.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 21
G: Oh, do you?
H: Uh-huh.
G: For commercial buildings?
H: Uh-huh. All commercial buildings.
G: Okay.
H: Just south of the alley here - there are two buildings south of the alley - just south of the alley here was a livery stable. And he was in partner with Fred Homer who owned the livery stable for a few years and it didn't...it wasn't...it didn't make a go of it and so then he bought the land and he built these two, these buildings. Now across the street from that he owned a frame building in which there was a saddle shop, and I don't know what else, but it burned. In the fire - they had a really bad fire in Boerne early in 1908 and it burned the northeast side of Main Street. Burned probably four or five buildings. Burned all the way to the corner. We do not have a picture of the building that burned. But this is the one that he constructed in its place, and it's a brick building. It has two business places downstairs. Upstairs, when I was a
H: little girl, there was a dentist's office - that would have been the early '30s. There was a dentist's office in the southwest corner upstairs.
G: And that was done in 1909, it says?
H: 1908.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 22
G: Oh, '08. Oops!
H: He re-built it immediately; the fire was early in '08 and then he built this later. On the north side of the building there was...a chiropractor had an office.
G: Yeah?
H: And that was in the early '30s. The back of the upstairs was, and still is, an open hall, a big open hall. And they had dances up there, social events. That's where the St. John's Lutheran Church began their services in 1930.
G: So it was like a community center?
H: Well...
G: Kinda.
H: Kinda like that.
G: Uh-huh.
H: For many years, during the '30s and '40s - and I don't know how long after that because I married in 1951 and moved to California - and when I moved this northwest corner, on the ground floor, was used as a Gulf Oil Agency and - oh, not Lone Star - Pearl Beer Agency.
G: Yeah?
H: And they had that in there for many years. The south
H: side of the building was a barbershop, downstairs, for years and years.
G: Wow! It was a multi-purpose building.
H: Yes, uh-huh. And you know, the businesses didn't turn Elizabeth Gray Hudson 23
over very fast. They turn over faster now than they did then. But that's that building. And all of these are still in the family. Now, let's see, did I finish? I don't think I finished talking about his church activities.
G: Yeah?
H: And his in-town businesses.
G: Yeah?
H: He died in 1936. I can't remember what he died of.
G: And how old was he at that time?
H: Let's see, he was...
G: Around...
H: Let me look at the genealogy.
G: He was eighty-six years old.
H: He died in '36, he was born in 1860, so he was...I think he was seventy-something.
G: He was born in 1867.
H: That's seventy-six years old. And he's buried in the cemetery in Boerne. I don't know whether you're interested in his children, and their activities, or primarily in his activities?
G: Well, I'm interested. Do you happen to know about his naturalization, when he became a...
H: I have his naturalization...
G: When he became a resident of the U.S. and Texas?
H: His naturalization paper is dated September of 1906. Elizabeth Gray Hudson 24
Let's see, September 21st, it looks like.
G: Uh-huh. Are there any family stories that go along with his naturalization?
H: No, not particularly. Well, interestingly enough it was signed by George D. Gray, who is my other grandfather. But we have not found naturalization papers on him, although he went farther afield. My mother always said that he signed A.G. Gilliat's paper and he himself was not naturalized. And maybe that's true, I don't know. I don't have... because we do not have the other naturalization paper.
G: Oh, okay.
H: So, I can give you a copy - do you want a copy of the naturalization papers?
G: Yes. That'd be nice.
H: And I can't think of anything else. If you want to ask me some things, maybe I'll remember.
G: Okay. I think it's interesting to see how he brought the English culture with him in sports and activities. Are there any other ways that you can think that he integrated his English culture into his life in Texas?
H: Well, it's difficult for me to distinguish whether he did, because he married a Scottish lady...
G: Okay.
H: And of course we were reared with the English culture, but I can't differentiate it from anything else because... Elizabeth Gray Hudson 25
or it being specifically his. Now he was an excellent businessman. And he was never out of debt. When he would pay off a loan, he would buy something else.
G: Oh, really?
H: Uh-huh. And make another loan. And so he was always upgrading and always improving.
G: Yeah.
H: In his financial situation. And as far as I know, I don't know of any failure that he had.
G: Really?
H: Uh-huh.
G: A very successful man.
H: Uh-huh. But he was...to some extent he was...he wasn't a recluse, but he was - what do you call a person who's off to himself? - he was an independent thinker.
G: Yes.
H: He was an adventurer, as you can tell by the many things he went into.
G: Yes.
H: And willing to take a risk. He was a positive, a positive thinker.
G: Uh-huh.
H: He believed that things would work properly if you did them properly.
G: Yes.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 26
H: He collected - is it a philatelist? - collected stamps from all around. But he had - he was color blind...oh, that's another - he was color blind. And so he had a really bad time matching colors on the stamps. And that color blindness has been handed down; my brother is color blind.
G: Oh, gosh. Well, is there any closing thought that you would like to say about your Grandfather Gilliat?
H: Well, he was a really nice man. I loved to be there, you know. And he would sit with us and he would listen to the radio and you know, we were there too. But there were times when he really wanted to have some time to himself.
G: Yes.
H: And I suppose it was the frustration of trying to understand...he didn't have any trouble understanding people, particularly, that I remember, so he must have been a good lip reader. The businesses in town where he bought his groceries, particularly the grocery store, he paid his bill once a year.
G: Oh, really?
H: He charged everything for a year. And apparently that was an unique practice of his.
G: Yes.
H: Because it was noted by the people who ran the grocery store there. He'd come in once a year when the harvest came in and he would pay his bill. Elizabeth Gray Hudson 27
G: Well, I'm kind of surprised that they could hold out for a year waiting for payment.
H: I am too. But none-the-less, that was his way of thinking. But in the springtime, when the barns were empty, before they...before the harvest, they always had barn dances in the barn.
G: Oh, yes. And you actually knew him, growing up?
H: Oh, yeah. I was nine years old when he died.
G: Yeah?
H: We would go out during...my sister - I had a twin sister - and at harvest time, why, we would go out and help cook, to feed the hands.
G: Oh, yeah?
H: Uh-huh.
G: What else did you do with him, that you remember?
H: Oh, I remember eating suppers with him, out there, when we were out there in the summertime. You know, I don't remember being out in the yard or in the fields with him, other than going with the people who were going...taking food to the harvesters. And he was busy. he was a very, very busy man...
G: Yes.
H: ...when that was going on. But he wasn't upset by, or seem to be bothered by noises. You know, the machinery was so loud.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 28
G: Oh, yes.
H: But he...you know, he didn't wear his hearing aid, and so he wasn't...but he knew when that motor was not acting properly.
G: Yes.
H: I suppose he felt the vibrations.
G: Yeah, yeah. That's an interesting aspect.
H: Uh-huh.
G: Do you happen to know the route he took when he decided to come to Texas and land at Galveston?
H: He went through New York. It says here, something about...
G: His travel route?
H: Uh-huh. Arrived at the Port of New York, in the State of New York, on the 14th day of December 1881.
G: And from there he took another ship to Galveston?
H: To Galveston. Uh-huh.
G: And then from Galveston he was on foot.
H: I suppose.
G: Yeah.
H: Uh-huh.
G: Because he came inland and ended up at Boerne.
H: Uh-huh.
G: Okay.
H: I'm...I have read that book on William George Hughes...Elizabeth Gray Hudson 29
G: Yes.
H: ...and they were close friends. My grandfather and... H: he called him Billy and I'm... Nobody else that I know of called him Billy Hughes. He was called Willie by his family. But I'm wondering if my grandfather called him Billy because he never heard that it was a 'W', but everybody in my family called him Billy Hughes, and we're the only people that called him Billy Hughes.
G: Uh-huh.
H: But he did the same kind of thing; he did ranching and they were close friends. They were both on the cricket team. And...
G: Well, that's a small world.
H: Well, Boerne's a small area. [laughter]
G: Yeah, it is.
H: Now I can...sometime, if you'd like, I can give you other English names. And of course not many of them stayed in the Boerne area, but there are a few who have descendents, a few of the families that have descendents there.
G: Okay.
H: And I believe they came from England. Not all of them were cowboys.
G: That's right. [laughter] Well, I would appreciate that. We'll get together and do that.Elizabeth Gray Hudson 30
H: Okay.
G: Yeah. Well, Elizabeth, thank you very much for talking with me about your Grandfather Gilliat.
H: Well, I'm happy to do that. He was a really an interesting person and played a big part in the development of the area, ranching in particular. But also in town.
G: He certainly did. Well, I will close this interview. It's 3:05 and again thank Mrs. Hudson for being here.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2.