THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
INTERVIEW WITH: Inez Jenkins
DATE: October 20, 1993
PLACE: Marshall, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Cheri Wolfe, Research Associate
TAPE I, Side 1
CW: This is Cheri Wolfe, and it is October 20, 1993. And I am visiting with Ms. Inez Jenkins here at her home on Black Street in Marshall, Texas. And we are going to be talking about the Civil Rights Movement here in Marshall and it's aftermath.
Where were you born Ms. Jenkins?
IJ: I was born in Rochelle, Louisiana, but lived in Alexandria, Louisiana, which is my native hometown. My father had two businesses in Rochelle, and it just happened that my mother was there when I was born. But, my native home is Alexandria, Louisiana.
CW: What year were you born in?
IJ: 1915.
CW: Oh!
IJ: Yes!
CW: How did you make your way to Marshall?
IJ: Well, my profession was that of personnel administration in higher education, I was the dean of women with a master's degree in religion and philosophy from 2
Hartford Seminary IJ: Foundation. And so in those days higher education had a more, what shall I say, focus on the humanities. And so, ah, several college presidents considered me qualified to serve as dean of women and professor of religion and philosophy. I'm a graduate of Dillard University in New Orleans, Louisiana, and I had the good fortune to have been recommended to Hartford by the president of that University and his wife. They were sponsors of the senior class, so he recommended me after I finished my master's degree to Dr. Horace Mann Bond who then was president of Port Valley State College in Georgia. So my first job was with Dr. Bond in Georgia as dean of women and professor of social science. And from there I was invited to Southern University, which at that time was the largest land grant college for Blacks in the world. And I was dean of women there. And the job was a little bit too extensive for me to teach, so I was an administrator - 5,000 students, 8 dormitories, 12 people on my staff, and 3 secretaries. I must have been about 26 years old then. But I think my mother had trained me to be a person of some serious, you know, orientation. And I enjoyed my experience with the students in the first three colleges where I worked. Port Valley State College was one of finest scholars in the world. Horace Mann Bond was sort of a fair-haired child of Julius Rosenwall Fund. And Julius Rosenwall Fund expended great interest and funds into the development of Black education. 3
And then from there, of course, I went to IJ: Southern; Southern, as I said, was the largest Black land grant college, and then from there to my old alma mater where I was dean of women and associate professor of religion and philosophy. And it happens that this was before the age of Black education; we were segregated in the south. But all who were interested in Black education at that time saw that the greatest scholars and the great figures of that time visited our campus, so that our kids were exposed to people like Aldous Huxley, cultural leader, artist Marian Anderson, political leaders, cultural leaders, Dorothy Mae Knorr. You name them and they were brought to these colleges to give the young people an acculturation and a kind of cosmopolitan knowledge, you know. And when they went into schools as professors or teachers, whether they were at the elementary, secondary, or higher education level, they had a lot to give; not just from the textbook, but from their cultural experiences. The Black colleges were wonderful institutions in those days. We at Dillard, we had one of the first Black dramatists in the south, Randolph Edmunds. My brother and I were a part of his drama team, and we traveled the country. And in later years, I traveled with the Dillard University players, as their sponsor and chaperone, to the American Association's 100th anniversary at Grinnel College in Iowa. And I must have had about 20 students with me, and it was a wonderful experience to be a part of the celebration of the 4
American Missionary Association century celebration. And IJ: that's the kind of exposure that Blacks of my generation had, so that we were aware of segregation, but the impact did not make us dysfunctional. I guess I would use that term. In other words, we were motivated to develop ourselves into the best persons that we could be. And our college life was so rich, you know, that we really didn't miss too much of being, as we are now, integrated. Because the culture came to us. So we professors and administrators brought it to us. So now that was the progression of my being born in a small, I would say hamlet, near Alexandria, Louisiana, but reared there and trained in the the church-related schools of Alexandria - Lamden College and A.M.E. School, and then later at the Catholic high school. And my favorite teacher of all time is a nun, a White nun, by the name of Sister Theresa. And I had that kind of exposure and orientation. And then my mother became dean of women in a small A.M.E. college - A.M.E. supported college - in Jackson, Mississippi. And there again we were sheltered. We were reared, the kids of my generation were reared, in a very sheltered way. Religion was a great influence in our life. The church was the center of Black life in almost every community that you could name. And it seems as though I'm painting, you know, a bright picture, but it was wonderful! And our parents wanted to see that their children were educated. As my mother said, she did not wish to raise an 5
ignorant child - no one that would steal or lie. This is what she said to my brother and me. So I think I was IJ: fortunate and there were many like me. Louisiana had such beautiful people, both White and Black. And there was a mixture of White and Black, so that out of that mixture came the most beautiful women and handsome young men that you would see anywhere in the world. And maybe it was sort of special, maybe that wasn't the general, you know, picture. But to some extent I think it was, because most of us came out of a rural urban background, but we were exposed to the best that our parents could provide for us at that time. So now, as I said, the progression was from, I would say, Alexandria to Jackson, Mississippi, back to New Orleans, Louisiana, at Dillard, then to Hartford Seminary and from Hartford Seminary to Port Valley State College as dean of women and professor of social science. And then from there to Southern University and back to Dillard, and then I took my mother to California for her health. She was a cardiac patient, and I had to take care of her. My brother was in Los Angeles. He was a graduate of Dillard, as well, was a captain in World War II - the first Black to lead a regiment against the Japanese in the South Pacific. And when he returned to his wife in Los Angeles, he decided to settle there, which meant that I took my mother there. And for a while I worked in an office, in a firm, because I knew how to type, and taught in one of the high schools part-time. And 6
somehow I did not like Los Angeles, you know, it was too mobile. It would seem that people who lived on the west side worked on the east side and vice versa IJ: and it was so near the horizon, you know. And I was accustomed to the placid climate, you know, of the south, the deep south. And I had an invitation to come to Marshall, Texas, to serve as dean of women and professor of religion at Bishop College, which was a Baptist-related school. And my mother's health had improved so that she was willing for me to come. She said, "Now I'm not going to go with you; I'm going to wait to find out whether you are satisfied there. If you're satisfied, then you can come and get me." So I came. And it was a campus of faith, although not a very beautiful campus. But when one walked on that campus, one felt a sort spiritual sense, you know, of faith. But it was a renowned college for the training of ministers - Black ministers - in east Texas, and teachers as well. And I served there six years here, and then the college moved to Dallas. Parents asked me to accompany their kids to Dallas, because they said they didn't want them in the Big D without someone who knew them, you know, and cared about them. And I remained there three years until Mr. Kennedy was assassinated. And I won't go into all of the experiences, but they were rich experiences in Dallas. Dallas really just spread the red carpet for Bishop College - both White and Black. And a group of Jewish couples came together. They were so 7
impressed by the College and what we were doing, that they formed a group to provide support for Bishop College. And there was a wealthy jewelry family there. Why, I cannot call the name; it was not Peltz. IJ: Oh my, I'm sorry that I cannot remember. But, never-theless, that particular business supported the school, because when it was announced that Bishop was coming to Dallas I understand the income increased over a million dollars. Just the announcement that this school was going to come there caused that, and it was a wonderful experience for me to be in Dallas. The churches invited us, you know, to participate in every way and supported us. And there was a wonderful man, the founder of United Way, who had come to Bishop before we moved. And he was so impressed with us that he said he wanted Bishop to come to Dallas. Of course, I've forgotten his last name. But, at any rate, the secretary of the Dallas Society of, no, the Dallas Social Agency, was a Black woman. She looked White, but she was really Black - an amazing woman, Ms. Pearl C. Anderson. And I invited her to speak for our Women's Day, the first Women's Day that we had. And I gave a small scholarship of $10 to the girl best exemplifying the ideals of the college. And this man, this wonderful man, head of the the United Way, took a check out of his pocket. And he said, "Some of my friends told me that, "If I encountered someone who needed help to write a check for $1,000," he said, "I'm going to raise this award to $1,000 for one of the 8
women students. And besides, I felt this feeling of faith," he said, when he walked on the campus. "We want you to come to Dallas, and when I go back...", and he did contact 100 citizens, White and Black, in Dallas. One happened to be the IJ: president, I believe, of the Fidelity life Insurance Company. A wonderful man. And to make this story short, he helped develop the campus. And the property was given by a wonderful gentleman who had reached the age of 90 years, a White man. I think he was a Jew. He gave the property 40 acres. So to me that indicated a good relationship, you know, a concern on the part of east Texas citizens for a college, a Black college, like Bishop, which was a church related school. And again we brought the finest artists to the campus - I had learned from Dillard and from Southern. And so, I was chair of what was called the LYCEUM, the culture committee. And we just had opportunity to bring the best, you know. But, unfortunately, Bishop eventually met with some difficulty, and it is no more. I think the campus has been purchased by, may-be, C.M.E.'s or A.M.E.'s, which are Black denominations; but I don't know.
In the meantime I had been asked to come back here to serve as professor of religion and philosophy at Wiley. In fact, the president, who then was Dr. T. W. Cole, had asked me to remain in Marshall and work at Wiley before Bishop moved. But I told him of the parents' request, and I felt that I owed them that much. And so, at the end of three 2
years in Dallas -these were wonderful years - but when Mr. Kennedy was assassi-nated, somehow I lost my...I didn't lose my love for the city, but I had witnessed an ugly event at the Dallas Civic Center, When Adelaide Stevenson was, you know, was vice president of IJ: the United States. No, he was ambassador to the United Nations at the time, and he was invited to speak for United Nations Day in Dallas. And a wonderful White citizen was Ms. Sarah Hughes, I believe her name was, was the chair. She was a judge, Judge Sarah Hughes. And she was chair of the United Nations - I guess you call it 'committee' in Dallas. And so Mr. Stevenson was invited to speak that year. And I admired him so much, and I asked my girls if they would like to go - the students, you know. And I think about 30 of us attended. There was not enough space for me to sit in the auditorium. I gave my seat to one of the girls. All the girls were seated in the auditorium. I was seated outside in the lobby, and there was a television set so that persons who were in the lobby could hear and see. Well, there were about 150 people in the lobby. And there was a demonstration, an awful demon-stration, of about 25 men and women against Mr. Stevenson and America and Mr. Kennedy. And I thought that was...it was such a surprise, I did not expect anything like that. And one of the demonstrators had on an Uncle Sam costume, you know, representing...and he just disgraced, you know, the United States in how he cavorted in that costume. And they 3
were so obnoxious that one dear, sweet White lady took off her shoe, and she said, "If you come near me, I'm going to hit you with this shoe." And...but we endured it, you know. And when Mr. Stevenson came out at the end of the program and walked out into the street, one woman hit him with a placard. And IJ: another one tried to spit on him, you know. And they said, "Now, what has that wonderful man done to those people?" But I could not make the connection. But somehow I said if that were the way, you know, they controlled an event of that type, I just wondered about, you know, the sanctity. Though I can't blame Dallas. I'd have to blame the political climate, you know.
CW: When you say controlled, do you mean the fact that they allowed those demonstrators to be there?
IJ: Yes!
CW: Or did the police interfere?
IJ: I don't recall that the police interfered. I really don't. And I was seated there in the lobby. Maybe they did; maybe I was so caught up, you know, in what these people were doing, and just so shocked and surprised, you know, that I didn't notice. But I'm sure there must have been what do you call a safety...?
CW: Security.
IJ: Security, yes, security person there. But these people just seemed to ignore anything that was said to them, you know. Because a few of the people said, "Why are you dong 4
this?", you know. Well, I felt then...in retrospect, I think this could have been Americans, and I don't want to cast reflection on anyone, but I say from South American area, who were American citizens, but I would say South American citizens. And now, in retrospect, I understand what Mr. IJ: Kennedy attempted to do there, I believe, to offset something that the Russians were doing. So it was a political thing. Later, I came to understand it, you know, as a political thing. You're probably acquainted with, you know, that Russian American...
CW: The Bay of Pigs?
IJ: ...the Bay of Pigs, yes. But at that time, we were not aware of it, you see; all of that was not brought to light until later. But at that moment, I said, "Well, I think I will go back to little Marshall." I loved Marshall, do you see? So now I've gone all the way around Robinson's Barn to tell you how I, you know, came to Marshall; first Bishop, then Dallas, then because of events, you know, back to Marshall. I had been asked to remain before I left; and then someone heard that I was leaving Bishop and called me and said, "Oh, Ms. Jenkins, Dr. Cole is in Washington; he's working in Mr. Kissinger's office as assistant and," he said, "If Ms. Jenkins comes through, you know, ask if she would like to come with us." So I ended here in Wiley College, and I stayed 24 years in my work on campus as associate professor of religion and chaired the department for almost three years 5
when we did not have a chairman for the department. And I really enjoyed my experience at Wiley College. I said it was one of the few colleges that still retained a full major in religion and philosophy and prepared Black ministers, you know, for not only the Methodist church but we've quite a number of Baptist IJ: students and Catholic students. So that that was just wonderful for me, you know. We had 27 religion majors throughout that time; we never had less than 27. That was the largest enrollment of students in religion, who were majoring, you know, in religion in the six Black colleges of this area. And the community of Marshall, I found to be not a closed community, in one sense. I would say it's a sort of a family community. And everyone was receptive to me. And, of course, I'd grown up in a segregated period and culture and all, and was committed to my work. And I was a Methodist and Metho-dists united in 1968. And I worked with our Texas conference and the United Methodist women in the district. And we were really united, you know! Black officers, White officers we worked together. It was a wonderful experience. I don't know whether you recall when the Methodist Church became the United Methodist Church; it had been been segregated. Of course, Blacks were a part of the founding of the Methodist Church in America. I have written a skit about that; it was performed at the 200th bicentennial celebration of the history of the Methodist Church. But, at any rate, what I was trying to say, is that 6
Wiley College traditionally trained ministers. And out of the school came bishops, missionaries; and, of course, this is my field. Now, I was always aware, you know, of the problem of segregation, because when I was dean of women at Dillard my liberal-minded students rejected sitting in the back of the bus, you know. The transit system in New Orleans IJ: had a little bar that divided the two races. And this bar was portable; it could be moved, you know, up front or back. And when our students would get off, they'd take the bar with them. And, you know,...and that sort of thing. And once my students were caught, and they had to...they were sent on to the police to appear before the judge. And, of course, as dean of women and actually director of student personnel, I had to accompany them. In the meantime, one of the fine lawyers, Black lawyers, who was representing them himself, went before the judge and said, "These are just kids; they belong to Greek letter groups; and they were doing this for fun," you know. And so...and even if they would not understand, he said, "Now, this is just youth. And I don't think it's worth, you know, bringing them to court." And so they were dismissed. And we had arranged our transportation. We were all dressed and ready to go, and at the last minute, I said, the Lord intervened, you know. And my little girls and young boys didn't have to go before the judge. Well, to me that's symbolic of what happened in the south. Some things worse, some things better. When I worked at Southern 7
Univer-sity, two long years after leaving Dillard, two of my students called me at my office at Southern University, and said, "Oh, Dean Jenkins, we are here at LSU." LSU was predominately White - the White state university, all White - considering we did not have segregation. And, "We are being molested; we were housed in the married students' area, my wife and I," IJ: this young man said. "And the other couples are objecting to our being here. And when we wake up in the morning and prepare to go to school, when we walk out on our little porch and steps, all kinds of debris has been thrown -bricks and dirt, and rotten eggs and that sort of thing. And we're wondering what to do. Can you help us?" Well, I said, "I would not worry about it; I would simply pray and stay." I said, "I'd simply pray and stay." I said, "However, I do know the lawyer who, I think, represents the NAACP," - that's the National Association of Colored People in New Orleans - and I said, "I will call him, his name is Attorney Turow, and see if he will look into the matter. He's a wonderful man." So I did. And this man took the case. Do you know, by the time those kids graduated, the young men had been elected by all the couples - married couples - president of the Married Couples Club on the campus. Wasn't that wonderful!
CW: So this is right when desegregation was happening?
IJ: That's right! And so, to continue the story, it's that Attorney Turow that represented them. And the story ended 8
beautifully. Now...so I will have to say that LSU - Louisiana State University - before desegregation, had accepted Black students at the graduate level.
CW: So this was before the 1954...
IJ: Before the 1954...
CW: ...Supreme Court decision?
IJ: ...Supreme Court decision. And I just admired that IJ: institution, and I still have a very close feeling, you know. And the first Black to graduate from LSU, graduated before the Supreme Court decision. He was one of my Dillard classmates, and he got his Ph.D at LSU. So now, I think there was a movement even before, well before 1954, even in the south, you know, to come to grips without a lot of publicity, you know, and confusion. Now since desegregation, since 1954, LSU has had quite a number of Black professors on campus. One of them was one of my colleagues at Southern - a student at Southern, one of my students at Southern, a very beautiful human being. And now then, I think Louisiana is a little bit different in a sense...
CW: Than Texas, you mean?
IJ: ...than Texas. Always good relationships. Maybe it was because so many of us were kin to one another, you know. There was a sort of...I'm sorry that I don't remember the French word for it...but sort of an understanding, you know. We had problems, but they did not cause hate. I just don't remember, you know, the feeling of hatred. Even as children, 9
when we encountered one another on the way to school, we were going this way, the Whites coming this way, there were very seldom any encounters because Blacks were living...there was no Black section; Blacks lived all over Alexandria, you know. And so, in Louisiana we just had a sort of different view. Although I'm sure there were problems, but perhaps I was too busy to be concerned about them. And I had been to New IJ: England, trained in New England in a White seminary, you know, which was always desegregated. There was no question of it. I lived in the home of John Knox and his family. They took in students, and he was at the time editing The Interpreter's Bible. There were four editors, and he was one of them. I never shall forget one day...he said his wife was named Lois and she was from the deep south, and had such wonderful southern accent. And the New Englanders in Hartford couldn't understand why Mrs. Knox had such a southern accent, and here I was, Inez Jenkins from the south, and I didn't have it. I said, "Well, I think the difference is that's she's from Georgia, and I'm from Louisiana, and you have a lot of French and Spanish and German. There have been five nations in the control of Louisiana, you know, in its history. And so the speech, you know, demonstrates that." And this is the way I explained it. I said, "Although I'm southern and my speech is southern, but nevertheless she is from Georgia. Pure southern, you know. And I happened to come from a sort of a10
mixed area."
CW: How did Marshall feel then when you got here to Texas?
IJ: When I came to Texas, yes, I was about to mention that. I came here from Los Angeles. But, you see, Marshall was a college community. There were three colleges here, two Blacks and one White - Bishop College, Wiley College, and East Texas Baptist College. It was called Marshall College up until the name was changed to East Texas Baptist University. And I IJ: think that the two Black colleges preceded the establishment, the founding, of the White college. Now Bishop born in 1867, and Bishop...something like that, you know. I've forgotten the ETBU date, but nevertheless there were these three colleges. And even though they were entirely segregated and hardly aware, you know, of one another, yet they produced educated people. And so the Blacks developed a rich culture out of Bishop and Wiley. And ETBU developed a rich culture. So, in a sense, though, they were...now Mr. Myers' thesis was that there were two Marshalls. What he meant was Black Marshall, White Marshall.
CW: Do you agree?
IJ: Well, certainly! Most towns were that way in the south. Most cities south of the Mason-Dixon line were two, because, you see, all of your institutional and cultural life was separate. The only desegregated encounter was when we went to the White-owned businesses. Most Blacks, you know, 11
did shop, were admitted to shop, in department stores and the drug stores and that sort of thing. But Marshall had its own Black businesses. The Black doctors had their offices downtown, in the center of town, on Austin Street. When I first came here, I would take my girls to the dentist, and I was surprised, you know, to find offices in the center. Where the new courthouse is, the courthouse is now, there was a Black drugstore.
CW: What happened to those businesses, do you think, as a result of desegregation?
IJ: They simply moved their offices. The citizens - Black citizens - I've forgotten the the major organization that was interested in helping two of our doctors to develop their own office building and center. Dr. Anderson and Dr. Lamont. They were two fine medical doctors here. They could not practice at Marshall Memorial Hospital. And they could send their patients there, but the facility was such, you know, that it led them to want to develop their own - not a ho s-pital, but they developed modern medical offices there. Following desegregation, naturally, they became outstanding practitioners; invited into the collegiality of the medical fraternity, you know, down there. Eventually, there was a young Black woman doctor who came, Dr. Jabel, and she said that at one time she was the only woman doctor amidst, she said, all of these cigar-chewing doctors. Oh, she made up a little comical story about it. But nevertheless, after 12
desegregation, after 1961 here, things changed. Not so much after 1954. There was an interim period there when Blacks remained in their Black schools, and Whites remained in the White schools.
CW: And you were here in Marshall?
IJ: I was here in Marshall from '55 until '61, when I went to Dallas. Then I returned. Now, there was an interim period of adjustment, you know, following 1954. Marshall remained seg-regated following 1954. And it was through the efforts of a woman here; and this is the one I think you really should IJ: interview, is Mrs. Charles Wilson.
CW: I have.
IJ: You have Mrs. Charles Wilson, who in a sense just became interested in seeing that the Marshall schools obeyed, you know, the 1954 Supreme Court decision. But it took them some time to do it. I suppose the interim from 1954 to about 1960 - maybe 1957, '58, '59, '60 - by '61 most of the the schools had made the shift. It took some time to close the Black, the all Black schools or to integrate them. They had to survey the condition of the schools and decide which ones would be retained and which ones...and who would remain the principal, you know, and that sort of thing. So there was some interim adjustment period, let us say an adjustment period, between '54 and about '60. But there was some contention, latent contention, during that adjustment period. There's certain areas that remain segregated, like your bus 13
stations. There would be separate sections for the Blacks, a section for the Whites. Woolworth Store did not permit Blacks to eat at, to sit at, the counter, to shop in the store, and this was between '54 and '61. All right, so the Civil Rights Movement in Marshall, I am sure, grew out of the fact that desegregation was not complete in Marshall. And it was the students of Bishop and Wiley College who led the Civil Rights Movement. And it was their movement, you see. The movement started in the Carolinas, and the students had a network, through their fraternities and sororities across the country. IJ: They would have regional meetings and national meetings. And then when the students sat in Carolina, word spread among the Black college community in America, and it caught fire. And our students at Bishop and Wiley already had their student government organizations. And the young man who headed the student government at Bishop - and I was there at the time -was Albert Campbell, a beautiful young man. His father was a minister, and he was trained to be a minister. And it was his senior year. And those students decided that they just weren't going to going to sit in a desegregated bus and drink from the segregated fountain any longer. And they, therefore, said we have rights as a citizen of America. And we're going to demand our rights; but we're going to do it non-violently. They had been influenced by Dr. Martin Luther King's non-violent philosophy, which Mr. King himself had adopted and formed 14
from Thoreau, you know. Yes, non-violent resistance. I will not accept, you know, the situation, but I will do it non-violently. And so, you know, the story of Martin Luther King; and our students were inspired by his movement. And so, the Wiley-Bishop students decided to desegregate the bus station and Woolworth Store; and there was one other area, I've forgotten, but these were the targets from the beginning. And they would move...they would begin by marching, and they were dressed, oh, they were dressed in their Sunday best, you know. And one of the ministerial students, who had one Sunday suit, you know, dressed in his Sunday suit for the march that IJ: really brought their movement to the attention of the entire community and the entire east Texas, and I guess the state and the nation. When he came back from the march, I looked at him and I said, "What happened to you?" He was dripping wet, and I knew that was his only Sunday suit, you know, for going to church. He said, "Ms Jenkins, I'm wet, but I'm happy!" I said, "What happened?" He said, "Ms. Jenkins, we had a march and around the courthouse; and we marched with respect and non-violently. We formed a ring around the courthouse; we sang our songs, we read our Scriptures, and we didn't bother anybody. But we sang, we prayed, we read our Scriptures. And the police hosed us." And he said, "It was awful. But we did not stop." One young man, who was not a student of Bishop, told me that he was hosed all the way from one block 15
up to another. And the police, mainly the Texas State Patrol, were the officers who were assigned to this task of breaking up the march in the center of the city. And so, they were told that if the students did not desist, or discontinue their movement, that would bring the dogs - police dogs. They did not do that, but they really hosed them. And it was quite terrible for some of our students. But the students continued; and they sat-in at Woolworth.
CW: Another time?
IJ: Another time. They continued their movement. They did not desist. They continued the movement. And they sat-in at Woolworth. And one of the little vignettes that came out of IJ: that was, that some of the White kids...you know, you always have an element like that, we have it today...put lighted cigarettes on the backs of the kids.
CW: Oh, my!
IJ: And the Black kids...and this is true, I'm not trying to exalt them in any way...they were b...y. They'd turn to them and say, "I love you," and smile. I think that spirit of prayer, and commitment, and love, was the real force that changed Marshall, because the students did it non-violently. If you hit them, they would not hit you back. You hosed them, they just got wet. Put a lighted cigarette on their backs, and they'd turn around and say, "I love you." So, it was the spiritual force of the movement, I think, that transformed Marshall, because both White Marshall and Black 16
Marshall believed in religion. And the church was the center of the White community. It was also the center of the Black community. And these kids came out of two church-related schools - one Baptist and one Methodist. And so they believed what Jesus taught. And the theology that I mentioned, of James Cole and others, entered into it because their theology was the theology of liberation. Not so much the Latin- American type, you know, but Black freedom was, you know, was the focus. And they were determined, you know, that they were going to change the segregated culture of Marshall, Texas. So they began to sit-in at the segregated churches. One of the -what was it, the Episcopal church up here, I believe - one of our students sat on the steps. He attempted to enter, but he was refused permission. But he sat on the steps, you know. And that was the quality of the movement, and the force of it was a moral, spiritual force on the part of those students. They never hit anyone. They never expressed hatred towards anyone. And this is true. And somehow the young woman leader, Mae Cortiss King, had already been elected the first Black president of the National Student Christian Movement, which was the united movement of the YW and YMCA. And Mae Cortiss was a student at Bishop, a senior. And she was the national president and slated to attend the World Conference on Faith and Order in Paris, France, that spring. And, of course, she was one of the leaders; and there were eight of my girls who were 17
involved. I was dean of women at that time. Eight of my girls, eight or nine Wiley girls. But at any rate, because Mae Cortiss was...these girl were arrested...and how I became an active part of it, was that when the Texas State Patrol came to arrest my girls, naturally they had to come through me. And I was seated in my office in Residents' Hall, the dormitory, when these two beautiful young Texas Patrolmen walked in. They were the finest looking specimen of Texas manhood, you know, that one could see, or find, or encounter. And when they walked in, I knew, you know, that something was amiss, but I didn't know what. So they just walked in; they didn't say, "Good afternoon" or anything. They walked in. And I looked up and said, "Can I help you, gentlemen?" And they said, "We've come for these girls." And when they said "these girls", they held out their hand, just held out their hand. And I said, "Gentlemen, won't you please sit down?" "No. We've come for these girls." I said, "Well, do you have a warrant? Is that a warrant that you have?" Well, I had learned long ago that you can't arrest people without a warrant. So they said, "Yes!" I said, "Well, please give me the names of the girls and show me the warrant?" So they did. And when they called Mae Cortiss' name, and then the name of Rosemary Johnson - these were our two leading young Christian women on the campus, you know - and I was amazed. And all of the girls were good girls, you know. And I said, "Well, please won't you have a seat? I will have to call the 18
girls." Then I said, "Oh Lord!" I just bowed my head inwardly, you know, "Lord, please guide me to do what is right here." And so I said, "I will notify the girls." I didn't know if they were all on the campus or in the dormitory or not. So I called one of the students, who was seated in the lobby. And my office had windows through which I could see the entire lobby, and I beckoned to one of the girls and she came. And I said, "Would you find these girls and tell them just what has happened - that the police is here with warrants to arrest them. And I'm sure it's related to their sit-ins." So this child did, and the students rounded up the girls and the boys and took them down to the gridiron, which was the football field, and formed a IJ: ring around them, and they prayed and read the Scriptures until the kids were ready, you know, to be arrested. And in the meantime, I asked the gentlemen to "Please sit down," I said, "It may take a little time," and they did. Well, I knew policemen, when they're arresting someone, don't take their hats off, but if a gentleman comes into a professional's office, even though he is a policeman, he's not arresting that person, that professional, he would honor the office or the person by taking off their hat. So I asked them if they would take off their hats, and not with any intent of being forceful. I expect with any gentlemen, you know. I said, "Please, won't you take off your hats?" They didn't say a word; didn't take their hats off. So I 19
said, "Please, gentlemen, you see, my girls are outside watching." And I knew that I could not afford to allow them to see anyone disrespect me as their dean of women. Not me as Inez Jenkins, but as their dean of women. So I insisted and told them this story, you know, about the President of the United States. I think it was Theodore Roosevelt, who was visited by the president of Tuskegee Institute, which at that time was outstanding and everybody knew about Tuskegee. And the president of the college had an interview with President Wilson. And the next day the two couples passed each other - Mr. Theodore Roosevelt and his wife and the president, Mr. Washington Booker T. Washington and his wife - and they were going in opposite directions. And Mr. Washington tipped his IJ: hat to the President of the United States and in return Mr. Roosevelt returned the courtesy. And the story is...now, I don't whether it's apocryphal or what, if it really happened, but the story is told that Mrs. Roosevelt said, "Why did you tip your hat to that Negro?" And the President said, "Well, he tipped his hat to me, and the President of the United States could not be less courteous than the Negro." And that story was told, and I told it to them, perhaps better than I'm telling it now. But at any rate, one of the gentlemen said, "I've heard that story." And I said, "You have?" I said, "Well, you know, I think it would certainly attribute to the character and quality of the President of the United States, that he 20
considered the Black man to be a human being, who deserved a like courtesy." Hats came off! But really, the hats came off when I told them I was going to call the president of the college to come. I don't know whether they believed me, but in the meantime, I told them this story. And when the president walked in, they took off their hats, you see. And so the kids came, and they formed a ring around the eight or ten boys and the eight girls in the lobby, and sang their songs and prayed their prayers and read the Scripture. And those two men were transformed; and finally they said to me - and this was the surprise - "Ms. Jenkins", it had been you all the time," you see, and they said, "Ms. Jenkins, would you call the girls; we have to go now?" And I said, "Yes, I certainly will." And I called the girls, and IJ: one of them turned to me and said, "Would you like to accompany your girls?" An entirely different attitude. "Would you like to accompany your girls, so that you will know where they are going?" I said, "Oh, thank you. I was hoping that you would suggest that. And I'm just happy to go. Thank you so very much!" And I don't know whether it was the news messenger or some reporter with his camera, came up to take the picture of the girls as they were being arrested. And one of those patrolmen, pushed him aside and said, "You're not going to take these girls pictures. These are good girls. These are college girls!" So, to me, that represented the transformation in Marshall. And when I told Mr. Moyers this, 21
he said, "Ms. Jenkins, was the entire community changed? What impact did it have upon the entire community?" I said, "Well, what I understand from the students is that it was not the community, the people of the community, it was the legal, you know, force, officialdom of the city that reacted. Not the community." In fact, several of my students said that the office windows were all pushed up, and the people were hanging out of the windows, listening to the hymns, you know, enjoying the singing, listening to the hymns. So, I feel that those patrolmen were following their orders, the orders of official Marshall, if you understand what I'm saying. You see, I came to understand it as the students understood it. They were challenging the system, and here they were confronted by the system. END OF TAPE I22
TAPE II, Side 1
CW: Given that Marshall is a small town, I would think that it would be fairly conservative; was it?
IJ: It was a conservative community. But you know, I said that, even so, the church was the center, and it was a college town. And I think all these schools stressed the humanities. Now, I am going to emphasize what education can do. I think the people here had enlightened minds, education-wise, both White and Black, although they lived in two communities. And although they followed the customs of the south, of separation of the races, which was a tradition, a hard well-defined tradition. But, in a sense, the Blacks didn't care, because they had developed a beautiful culture here, which grew out of the two colleges and the churches; a beautiful life. And the sororities and fraternities were connected with worldwide, you know, society and culture. Your bishops...Bishop King lived in this red-brick house down here. He was Bishop to Africa; had traveled all over the world in Methodism. Your Black Methodist ministers were officers, even though the Methodist Church was not united, on the the state and regional levels. It was in its national general assembly - general conference IJ: they called it. So, what I'm trying to say, that custom, I think, more than attitude, though I'm sure that there was some in their attitudes that felt that blacks were inferior and they had a place and they should keep that place. but I think, in spite 23
of themselves, having come out of ETBU, having come out of a Christian tradition, you know, that their minds were probably more open. And then they began to realize that it's the law. Do you see? It's the civil law. And I'm saying that it took Marshall a little time to adjust, but I think Marshall has become a model, to some degree, in race relations. We had a Black mayor - one served two terms one term, and someone else succeeded him and then they brought him back as Mayor Birmingham. Then we currently...our current mayor is Black, Mr. Wilbur. We have a Black postmaster, a Black justice of the peace, and your police force, you know, is made up of Blacks; your leading drug officer, enforcement officer, was Black. He was killed on one of these things that I just hate to see people ride. What do you call them?
CW: A motorcycle?
IJ: Motorcycle, yes! And he was a dear man, and everybody loved him. He was most skilled in what he did; real professional. But, at any rate then, the schools are integrated. Yet, I'm sure, because of the downturn in economics, Marshall has been affected economically to a great extent. And it's just beginning, I think, to make some strides, you know, to improve. But it was a downturn. Your IJ: businesses were closing, moving out to the outskirts. And they had a railroad office here at one time. When that moved, I think the city lost something like $2-$3 million income. Then, when we lost the main post office, we have a 2
sub-post office. Then there was a...I don't have the technical terms for this...but there was a judgeship here at one time. You know, like...
CW: Like a circuit judge?
IJ: Like a circuit judge, maybe. We no longer have that, you see. So there was a downturn in the economic status of Marshall. So, like a lot of areas in America, a sort of an underclass began to emerge. Poor people. You know that...
CW: ...
IJ: Yeah. Between poor and middle class and rich. And the mothers, you know, had to work. For a long time, if you read the obituaries in the Marshall News Messenger, Black people who died - and we know who they are because we know the people... She was a housewife. All right. Most of the obituaries say that, which means that for a long time the black women stayed at home and took care of their children. Now, they have to work. And so the children, to some degree, are neglected; which was untrue of blacks that I knew when I was a child and as we grew up. The parents saw that their kids, you know, had good behavior and went to Sunday school and to church, you know, and that sort of thing. But now the pattern is changing somewhat because of of the economy. And IJ: even though our people could be good, even should be good, even though they are hungry, but, you know...
CW: It's a lot to ask.
IJ: That's right. I think the downturn in the economy has 3
somewhat affected the behavior of our children. Then, I've wondered whether there has been a psychological thing as well. That when kids observe that another group has much more than they, and yet they are in contact with them, you know, in the schools every day and they're aware of the difference. I think it creates within them, you know, an attitude. Some would say, a sense of inferiority and a culture where White is beautiful and Black is ugly. You understand? So you understand why they began to say Black is beautiful, you know, as sort of a psychological counter, you know, attitude. And yet some Black kids rise above it. They know who they are, and Blackness doesn't bother them because they know their abilities. And they are determined, you know, that they are going to do well, and be the best that they can. But there are some others who have such a negative, you know, reaction, that it turns against themselves rather than against the people or the race that they think is their enemy. Many White people have made wonderful overtures, you know. They've tried to go more than half way; they've gone the second mile. They've been rejected; but it's a psychological thing with Blacks. One of the my teachers was Allison Davis, the first Black social anthropologist in this country, and he calibrated IJ: with John Dalworth, who was a psychologist. And they were interested in the effect of racism upon the person-alitities of black youth, black children. And Dr. Dalworth had tried 4
some experiments, you know, to try to understand. And when you can't fight against the strong, you turn it within against yourself, your own people. That explains why Blacks are killing Blacks. Because they have seen no way out. That underclass that economics has permitted to develop in this country. So it turns within. It's like, Mr. Dalworth said; it's like going through graveyards. You're scared, you know, and you kick the gravestone, you know, to say, you know, you're not afraid. To try to maintain the the integrity, you know, of your personhood. Well, so Blacks have turned their aggression within, although some express it against whites. But mostly it seems that the aggression is turned within the race. And the names that they may call one another, that sort of thing. But thank God, at the same time you, as a result of education, and the fact that many blacks have succeeded in all areas of life, the kids have role models and they are determined, you know. You have a determined group. And many of the young people are doing well in every field. When you have a girl like Ms. G.[inaudible], who was an astronaut, perhaps you think you would not expect that. But then Black women have pioneered in the area, you know, for some time. Even before women were admitted to the Army and the Air Force, you had Black women, you know, interested in flight and all IJ: the other areas. But it was not well-known. Ebony Magazine, I think, is a rather fair portrait of the image of middle-class Black America. And middle-class 5
Black America's attempts, you know, to help the race. But I recall Dr. Dalworth and Dr. Davis' collaboration on understanding the Black against black crime that seems to be so prevalent. It's aggression, pent-up aggression turned inward.
CW: Do you think, then, that a lot of the problems that we have, as exemplified in the L. A. riots, are really economic as opposed to a failure of desegregation?
IJ: Oh, that's quite a question. I think...I don't know how quite to answer that. Mr. Moyers asked me that question in a different way.
CW: Really!
IJ: He asked it this way. He said, "Ms. Jenkins, are you in favor, or what do you think about the movement among some for re-segregation?" And immediately, I said, "Well, our society is so diverse, I would have to answer it in terms of diversity and multi-culturism - what would happen to Blacks and how would they re-segregate in a multi-cultural society?
CW: We had one before and people lived like that.
IJ: But I don't think the impact of the multi-culturism was quite as strong during the period of desegregation. But I think I know what he meant in terms of education, you know, whether Blacks would fare better under Black teachers, you know, under the old system. Because it was a good system so IJ: far, but not complete in that it was not adequately 6
financed. If you compared, let us say, Fisk which at that time was the outstanding...and Howard University...which were the outstanding black universities for Blacks, with Harvard and with Yale, I think you'd find the differential there so great that you'd wonder, "Well, how did the Blacks, you know, make it?" So that equality almost suggests desegregation; but now I will try to answer your question. I think I was trying to answer it in part when I explained the Dalworth-Davis theory - that when you come into contact on a broad scale, where the former, what's the word I want...?
CW: Common?
IJ: Dominant. Yes, thank you, dominant race, and you become aware, you know, of the differences which still remain in our psyche and in our social relationships, and in our economic and political, you know, relationships, then you react to say, "Well, I'm going to do as well or better", or you react the other way. And to me, I don't want to see that. I think that when we do solve the economic problem, we are solving a problem called justice. When justice is done, then you don't have the problem of the either/or. Justice - economically, politically, educationally...and then it seems to me, if a person sinks down, he has no excuse.
CW: Do you think...
IJ: That's his character. But if the circumstances, you know, of his status is not just, or are not just, then you IJ: will always have that attitude. And now to me, God is 7
a God, I'm a Christian, God is the God of justice. And even the Old Testament, you know, gives us that concept. The Jewish people believe that, you know. God is, if you are characterizing him, God is a God of justice. Now what does justice mean? That everyone should have the same opportunity. Now everyone may not take advantage of it. The person who doesn't take advantage of it, then, can only blame himself, not the system, not society, not the government, not the culture. He can only blame himself. So I then believe that even if it means that, for a while, some of our people are going to fall through the cracks, that we should re-desegregate American society. Because to me, it is not only an injustice, but it's unconstitutional to do so. We abrogate our entire value system when we do that. Now, I may be wrong.
CW: No, I think...I don't think there's a right or wrong. I think it's an opinion. But, you know, when you were just talking about justice and all these others economically, politically, socially. Do you think that's what people were fighting for in the Civil Rights Movement?
IJ: They were. Justice. That is equal opportunity.
CW: Was that naive?
IJ: Well, I think it's naive because of the kind of world in which we live, you know. But we're never going to have peace without justice. If peace is what the world wants, there's going to have to be a more equitable distribution of 8
the IJ: world's resources. Look at what's happening across the world. I heard President Carter say that there are 34 different wars going on across the globe. I didn't know. I wasn't thinking of Bosnia and the Serbs and the Croatians, and thinking of Somalia and what's that...?
CW: Haiti?
IJ: Yes, Haiti. And here he says there are 34 different wars going on. And why? Unjust greed is behind it, and a kind of territorial egotism. And what I mean by that is, we're territorial creatures, and we want wealth. And so, in eastern Europe it's a matter of territory, which, to me, is a kind of egotism. It goes back to what? The 13th century and World War I? They still remember all that. Yesterday Queen Elizabeth went to...what's that little country in Greece that the English feel still claim? I'm sorry that the name of that little...
CW: Is it the one that wants to be wants to call themselves Macedonia, and that the Greek, Cyprus.
IJ: They want to join, they want to become a part of the Greek nation, again. And I've forgotten which country?
CW: I don't remember.
IJ: Yes, I don't remember. But at any rate, she visited them because it's still dominated...not dominated, that isn't a good word. But England has a claim.
CW: Protectorate.
IJ: Protectorate. Thank you. And there was a group that 9
IJ: demonstrated against, and even threw pellets, at the car, you know, motorcade. She smiled through it, because she's, you know, a pro at that. And...but this territorial...I cited that as an example of the claim of territory; the same is true between Israel and the Palestinians. I was in Israel, and I asked a lot of questions about the many...the Palestinians were in these camps, you know. I said, "Why aren't they integrated into, you know, the state of Israel? Or why don't the other Arab nations allow them, you know, to immigrate to Jordon, or there are 17 Arab nations over there." And I think that was the strategy of Israel; thinking that since they were close...of course, Arabs and Jews are kin, too, through Abra-ham, we believe in the Bible; you know that. But neverthe-less, I think the Jews, wanting their land for themselves, you know, thought the Palestinians would immigrate to the other Arab nations, which didn't happen. And so...and you know more about that than I do, perhaps...but what I'm trying to say is that we fight for territory. And here is the 4,000 year-old conflict. All right, in eastern Europe it's a what - maybe a 600 year-old territorial dispute. And in, of course, in a place like - and I'm going beyond my capacity here - Somalia I guess it's mostly political, you know, because it's one country. And those different, what do they call those war lords? Yes. But here it is; it's injustice, territorial injustice, and it's also the greed for power and 10
control. And I just think that until we learn to share the globe. NAFTA, IJ: what's that? What's the other one the Germans and Europe were trying to...?
CW: Ah?
IJ: Working out a free trade, versus protectionism, and all.
CW: Unified Europe.
IJ: Unified Europe, yes. And so, I was reading one commentator, either in Times or U.S. News, who said that he looked back to the 14th century when there was a period of peace. But the territories, the nations were not really nations. They were city states, and they carried on peacefully free trade in a fair manner. And he said, wouldn't it be wonderful if, instead of having nations, you know, that are at war with one another based on protectionism, and what's mine is mine and what's yours is yours, that we had city states instead. Where it's just natural for one city state to trade with the other. And I had to talk about the global economy Sunday night in our mission study, And I had learned that there are three economic communities, as you know - the European, the Eastern Block, and then the North American Block. And then our resources listed all the resources that each had, you know. And that what our young president is trying to do, you know, is to get the system of free trade where you just cordially enter into, you know, free trade with one another. But, here 11
again, you have this territorial thing, you know, and job thing, and it's so complex. But yet, if we were willing to put our minds to it, you know, and see IJ: one another as, ah, human beings living on this globe together, we could find ways to relate to one another in just ways. It's what I am saying. Work it out.
CW: What...?
IJ: So I don't believe that we should re-segregate. I don't believe it.
CW: How would you assess the Civil Rights Movement in its successes and its failures, at this point?
IJ: Well, in some areas I think it has been successful. In some areas it has not, primarily because of economics. I think the economic factor plays a great role in it, more than color or race. Now, I probably...I don't know maybe I'm wrong ...but, because I've been among so many different races, and in so many situations where there was just almost complete cordiality and acceptance, with no one even thinking in color, you know. I just think there are going to be times when it seems successful and we balk back. Then, you know, make gains again until the generations change.
CW: Do you think we are entering into another period of moving forward?
IJ: I think so, because of the challenge of the economic situation and the fact that we are globally connected. You see, when you did not have all of the technology that we have 12
now, that brings us together technologically...and what's the other word I want to use...well, and economically because there has been trade between the African nations and the IJ: European and Western nations. And sitting in those trade markets are Africans, Muslims. So that, really, I used to ask in talks that are made, suppose Jesus would come back? Where do you think he would come? Would he come to the church? Have we embalmed him in the church? Would he come, you know, where would he come? I said, maybe he will come to the marketplace. I said that a long time ago; maybe about 15 years ago. And it seems to me that's where things are stirring up now. And the marketplace that brings our leaders together, the economy. So, I really think the economy is the key to it. And now I'm going to sound like a wild-minded person. We have a wonderful Black preacher in Dallas, Texas. His name is Van, Vanzan,g what? Ah, I can't think of his last name, as well as I know it! But at any rate, he teaches preaching. He's a professor of preaching at Perkins and SMU. And he preached a sermon before the bishops of the Methodist Church - he's a Methodist - and some people tried to get him to run, or campaign, rather, for the bishophric, but he refused, and he preached a sermon before the bishops of the Methodist Church. And it was unlearned lessons, he talked of unlearned lessons. And one of them he mentioned was Jesus' feeding the 5,000. One of the gospels says 5,000. Another one cites, you know, Him in feeding the 4,000. But at any 13
rate, he involved his disciples in a participatory manner in helping him to feed the 5,000, the hungry people.
He's the one who really has the history of race relations IJ: in this city. And I thought it's so wonderful of him, you know, to send me that information of the older men, and later I invited him to appear on a panel at Wiley College with Admiral Moore, who was Admiral on the Kennedy ship during World War, during whatever war. Not World War II or Korea?
CW: Korea.
IJ: Korean war, I think. But nevertheless, he's a wonderful man, and so that reminds me, you know, this card was here and I did know it was here.
CW: What was his name again for the for the...so I can get in on the tape?
IJ: Attorney Jones, is that one?
CW: The man who was the judge when the girls went before the court?
IJ: You know, I'm sorry I do not know. I'm sorry but I do not remember. But nevertheless, the girls were arrested, and they were placed in...there was only one jail then. It was a dilapidated kind of place. just old, you know. And its accommodations were limited. And so eight girls had to stay in one room with two beds, and lie...what am I saying...across, you know, the bed. But they said they did not mind, because they weren't going to sleep anyway. They 14
were going to sing and pray and that sort of thing. But the little vignette that comes out of this is that one of the girls, a beautiful young woman, the daughter of Rufus Ander-son, Mr. and Mrs. Rufus Anderson, he was the city's famed IJ: organist and band leader, and he played for the parties of the outstanding people in east Texas - white and black. And his daughter was among those, you know, who was a part of the sit-in movements, Civil Rights Movement. And the girls were given one telephone call - not each girl, but one girl was to represent the eight girls. So they chose this child, Ms. Anderson. And I understand from their report, their view of the event, that when they asked the jail attendant if they might use the telephone, make a call, the jail attendant said to her, "Well, who are you going to call?" You know, spoke rather harshly to her. And she named the gentleman who was the father of Mrs. Lady Bird Johnson.
CW: Taylor?
IJ: Taylor. And his attitude changed altogether, you know, when she mentioned that name, because it was an influential name in this area. And so, they say he almost genuflected, you know, to give this child the telephone. And, of course, she did call. Now...
CW: Did they come down to the jail?
IJ: I don't think so, but I imagine, you know, Mr. Taylor may have spoken to someone to tell them to be nice to those kids, or something like that.15
CW: Why would they call him? It's an interesting choice?
IJ: Well, the girls called him. This girl was the daughter of Rufus Anderson, who played for all of Mr. Jones' events, ah, Mr. Taylor's events. And they were friends. You had many IJ: friendships, situations like that. Whether they were professional friendships or just friendship, between and among Whites and Blacks, in this community. Maybe not always overt, but whenever they had this relationship, you know, and just friendliness, you know. And I think Mr. Taylor was known for being a person who was benevolent, in his relationships with Whites and Blacks in this area. And so, Rufus Anderson, Mr. Anderson, was a friend of Mr. Taylor; and Mr. Taylor was a friend of Mr. Anderson. And so, this daughter was the one who was chosen to make the call, and she decided to call Mr. Taylor, to let him know that she was in trouble there, you know. And now what transpired - what he did - I don't know, except to know that the Blacks did not ask for help. The Black students, other than this call to Mr. Taylor, that I know about; the Black students did not want to involve the Black adults...
CW: Here in Marshall?
IJ: Here in Marshall. They said, we can handle it. Now, so even I was not involved until my girls were involved. However, because I was one of the sponsors of the YWCA, I went to their meeting, and they did not hold many meetings. It seems that they just had a method of their own of communi-16
cating. But there was one meeting of the YWCA and YMCA students on campus; it was an inter-collegiate meeting. And, of course, the kids invited us as sponsors. They invited the pastor of the church that was related to Wiley College - IJ: Ebenezer United Methodist Church. I remember Reverend Cox was his name, and he came. But the speaker was a professor in the Department of Theology, at Perkins, at Southern Methodist University. You've heard of Perkins Theological School at...?
CW: SMU.
CW: SMU. And this man was a Christian, you know, and he believed in freedom, you know, for all human beings. And he gave what the Bible says, you know. They'd given him a theme, which I don't remember now, but it was not - how shall I put it? - an adversarial theme. It was a theme through which they were trying to ask, what does the Bible say? What does the Christian faith say? And I made myself clear.
CW: Were they borrowing from Eastern philosophy, as well, with the Ghandi? Was Ghandi?
IJ: Yes, I was going to say when I mentioned...yes, you're right!...and I'm sorry I didn't mention that. When they mentioned Martin Luther King's non-violent movement, you see, they accepted his movement, and his philosophy inspired them -non-violent. And I tried to describe that every move they made was non-violent, you see. So they had this one meeting that I attended, for which the speaker was a professor from 17
Perkins at SMU. But they were meeting, not as Civil Rights Movement; they were meeting as a joint meeting of YW and YMCA. But all those leaders were members of that organization. So they had an umbrella organization under which to invite a IJ: speaker of the quality of - I think his name was Benshaw, I believe. I'm not quite sure about it. But at any rate, he spoke; he was...I don't know that his theological position was that of that political, liberal theory, you know, liberation. But, from the Christian point of view, these students were not playing around with their faith. They were involved in a political movement, but the Civil Rights Movement, based on The Constitution, but their force was spiritual. And this was what they were after. What does the Bible say? What does the Christian faith say? What must we do as Christian students? I hope I've made that clear?
CW: You certainly did. And it brings up an interesting point to me. I guess I thought that maybe the demonstration in 1960, or the arrest of the girls later, were isolated incidents: but it sounds like there was more of a unified, there was a plan. And there were...
IJ: Yes, there was a plan. Their intent was to desegregate Marshall; but not in the sense of an adversarial thing. But, based on their Constitutional rights, you see. And so now, as Christian students - and they were, indeed they were - but they felt that what was happening in the south, in cities 18
like Marshall and across the southern United States was wrong, constitutionally. But now, where was their force, strength coming from, was the question, you see, that they asked. So they felt that not only were they right constitutionally, but they were right religiously,...
CW: Morally.
IJ: ...morally, and theologically.
CW: Do you think, then, that sort of ties, I mean, ties into the notion that there wasn't a Civil Rights Movement in Texas? Maybe that's a misconception; there was one in Marshall. But it wasn't the more confrontational, violent one.
IJ: It was not! It really was not a confrontational violent. The violence came only from the institutionalized, civil, you know, authority - that is, the hosing, the threat to bring the dogs out - but the kids simply marched. Now this was Ghandian, do you see, and I meant to say that, because Martin Luther King was greatly influenced by both Thoreau and by Ghandi. Now I was looking for this book that explains Thoreau's idea.
CW: I've read it. I've tried...
IJ: I said in the beginning that I was looking for that book because there were two principles that the kids followed, the non-violent movement, which...
CW: Civil Disobedience.
IJ: Civil Disobedience, that's it. Thank you. Civil 19
Disobedience. And non-violence, you see. And for the kids being led by ministerial students and student leaders - the national leader of the YWCA movement - they were searching for what does the Bible say? And what does our Christian faith say? And they had already invited this theologian from Perkins at SMU to speak. The YM and YWCA had invited him. So IJ: all of these other students who had just planned, you know... This thought in their minds came, and it was crystallized that they were right, not only in terms of the Constitution, civil rights, but they were right, also, according to their faith.
CW: Were most of these leaders...I've heard it said they were outsiders, these students. That it wasn't local, it wasn't local blacks doing stirring up things up. It was the outsiders. Was this pretty much true?
IJ: Well, it just happened that the leaders of the organi-zations were students from other states. Mae Cortiss was from Arkansas. But Arkansas was pretty much like Marshall, that's inside, you know. The young man, Albert Campbell, I think, was from Colorado. But there were students here in Marshall that parents may have told them not to become involved, but they were involved, you know. And I think it was a sign of the times. The time had come, and I don't think it was this old outside idea. I really don't. I didn't get that feeling. It was a unified group of students who felt this way. They were influenced by the Martin Luther 20
King movement and, my goodness, they were reading the literature; they were studying The Constitution of the United States government; they knew about the Civil War and its impact upon this country. And so they were intelligent young people, both outside and inside. And what would you expect, you know, the students in this century, mid-20th century, to think? They IJ: were not as accepting as we were, as a whole.
CW: You know, as as I'm thinking about this, one of the things I might have expected was for them to reach out to the black ministers here in the city, because they had a natural tie.
IJ: Well, you see, the important thing is they did not even let us know. I myself - a Christian, and a sponsor of the YWCA...and I'm not defensive on this because, had I known, I would have been with them from the very beginning, you know. I had no...in fact, all of my life, in encounters like that, I had no better sense than to know that I was a human being and to respect my own dignity. But yet, I was a mild person. I was not an adversarial person, but I knew right from wrong. Do you understand? And somehow I think God has protected me all my life that I didn't have many encounters, you know, that raised the white-black issue - segregation/desegregation issue. Because our schools...Dillard University was one of the most beautiful campuses in America. And this is well-known, and our faculty 21
was both white and black. There was a close relationship among us, you know, and so we just...we were really in a cocoon-like, you know...so that we were not adversarial, but I guess in the back of our minds one day we knew it would change. But the student movement, I think, began when a group of students in the Carolinas - I've forgotten whether it was North or South Carolina - who decided that they just weren't weren't going to accept the kind of IJ: desegregation and dehumanization, in the social sense, in this society anymore. So in a sense, it was an outside move-ment because it started outside. But then, here these students...as I explained to you, many of them were fraternity and sorority brothers and sisters who met across the world, across the nation in their various meetings. Well, they exchanged ideas, and they were listening to their professors who had come from all over the world. Dillard had foreign professors who would raise it, "Well, does this make sense? Here, explain this." Well, it was the times.
CW: Do you think that they didn't come to you or other mini-sters...
IJ: They did not want to involve us. I think they were aware of the structure, the...oh, my, what's the sociological word? I can't...I'm sorry that I cannot think of it at the moment...but nevertheless they did not want us involved. I don't know whether it was that they didn't trust us, or whether they wanted to protect us. 22
CW: Or maybe both?
IJ: Both. I think they came to the conclusion that they could do it without us. And they would not jeopardize, you know, their professors. Because they really did not involve us; I didn't know the dimensions of the movement until those two patrolmen walked into my office. Then I understood, and I said, "Now, I'm the one who is to care for the students who have been in my care. And I'm going to have them respect me, IJ: and I'm going to see that my girls are protected, and I'm going to borrow something from the girls." This is my nature, though I think I had been in that meeting where they kept stressing love, you know, and non-violence. Although I wasn't ...what am I trying to say? Those things didn't come to my mind. I was reared a Christian, and I'd been around people from all over the world all my life and accepted as a person. I attended the University of Chicago. I attended Vanderbilt in Nashville. The Methodist have always been sort of united, even before...you know, as I've said to you that blacks were part of the founding of Methodism in America. And then I attended Catholic School, where all my teachers were White nuns. So, that's why I was detailed in explaining to you when you asked me about my background, and how I think so that the awareness of the situation was such that I would always act, react, or respond from a Christian perspective. And so, I didn't even understand the momentum of the students' movement until, you see, these two patrolmen walked 23
in. Although I had begun to understand when they were first hosed...when they marched around the courthouse and they were hosed, and this young man came in wet, you know. And then he explained to me that they had marched around the courthouse and had been hosed. And the boy said, "Mrs. Jenkins, I'm wet but I'm happy!" Well, I tried to convey that, to them, this was not only a Civil Rights Movement, but it was also a spiritual moment in history, when time had come for them to act. And IJ: they did not...in fact when Mr. King sent them a wire... Mr. Martin Luther King, when he heard about their hosing and all of that, he sent them wire saying, "I have $45,000 avail-able for you if you need it." They wrote him back, "Give it to the poor, we don't need it."
CW: What happened to that telegram? That would be priceless now!
IJ: I don't know. Well, I'm sure Albert Campbell would have it. He's pastor of one of the largest Baptist...he was pastor of one of the largest Baptist Churches in Philadelphia, I heard, in later years. But he may be back in Texas; I don't know where Albert is now, but...
CW: Why would he have it? What was his role at that time?
IJ: He was president; I told you he was president of the Bishop Student Government organization.
CW: AHH! Uh-huh!
IJ: He was a leader of the students, from the point of view of their government. All these students, these college 24
campuses, have what they call student government. They may call it a different name, but you have a president of all of the students. Well, Albert was, and he was a ministerial student. And Mae Cortiss was quite a religious child, who was the National President of YWCA.
CW: So the wire would have come to...
IJ: All right, now, I want to tell you that story. When the girls were in prison, placed in that terrible, old run-down IJ: jail on Fanning Street, they had to spend the night. It was about 6 o'clock when the patrolmen and Dr. Cole and I accompanied the students up to the courthouse, the old courthouse and saw them, what do you call it, booked, you know. And when we saw them placed, you know, in the jail, and the president of Wiley and I went with our girls. And we understood that they would be in that jail overnight. The boys in the boys' section. The girls in the girls' section. So I immediately called the the pres...no, no, it was published nationally on television. And the president, the general secretary of the YWCA at that time, was a black woman. Mrs. Smith, her name was. And I had met her when I was dean of women at Southern and Dillard. She was one of the Prairie View secretaries, and the Y's had secretaries that traveled to all the colleges and spoke. She called me and told me that she was sending one of the secretaries to Marshall with $1,000 to pay the bond for Mae Cortiss; You see, she was their national president. And she said, "Now 25
where can she stay?" Well, I said to myself, "There's no place in Marshall, you know, she couldn't stay; we didn't have the Ramada Inn, those places, and they would have been segregated, you know. So I said, "She can stay here at Bishop College." So this lady came with $1,000 to free Mae Cortiss, to pay her bond. Mae wouldn't accept it. She said, "No, I will stay with the others. If they don't have $1,000 bond then I don't have it." So then the secretary who came was white; it was just a IJ: beautiful situation. And so we discussed it, and I said, "Well, we are going to try to get the girls and boys out." I said, "But you stay as long as you wish, and Mae Cortiss is not going to change her mind, but I think somebody is going to intervene. Well, what happened is, this secretary, when she learned that the general secretary of the Y, head of the Y, head executive of Y...I don't remember the title...but at any rate, she called me back, and she put me on a hookup with Thurgood Marshall, who later became a judge in the Supreme Court.
CW: I know who you're talking about.
IJ: And Mr. Marshall told me not to worry, that the...and he was then the attorney for the NAACP, as you may know...he said, "We have an NAACP representative in Dallas, Texas, and I will call him and he will contact your local person. And don't worry; we will take over." So the NAACP, through the Dallas representative and the local representative, got in touch with ministers, and the churches. And one of our 26
churches consented for a meeting to be held in the church; and that was Ebenezer through Reverend Cox, you see. And the night that I shall never forget...and I tell this in every speech; I've told it in every speech I was called upon to make afterwards, you know, and I was asked to speak in the church, or even through my conference affiliations, I would tell them this beautiful story of the Marshall citizens who came to the rescue of our students. The court, or the judge here...I don't even remember his name, but Attorney Jones would remember, because he kept a record of the entire thing...this judge decreed that they would not accept cash bonds. They would only accept property bonds. That made it more difficult for the students. Now, it may have been, now that you have mentioned the outside aspect, it may have been that they felt that these - the students who had started the movement - were from outside, and, therefore, there would be no one here, you know, who would put up the property bonds for them. But that's not the way it happened. What happened was that the black community was willing to risk their homes, in order to free those 30 kids, and they did. Now the tragic part of it was that two, three of the students had to return; I don't know why because school had closed, and I was away. I had gone to Alexandria, my hometown. And three of the students were ordered by the judge to return. I...
CW: To jail?
IJ: Not to jail, but for a court proceeding. See, they had 27
been freed. Their bonds had been paid, so they were free. But there were some other details, which I understand, that had to be taken care of for these three. And so, they returned, and they were in an automobile accident. And one of the girls was killed outright, and the attorney, the local attorney who was Attorney Romeo. I think I have his picture on a calendar over there. He came from a distinguished black family here who owned the People's Funeral Home. His sister IJ: is a respected retired teacher in the public school system. But at any rate, he was killed. And there's...he's buried in one of the cemeteries out here. I think there's a little monument or something for him. But nevertheless, the child, the girl who was killed, was a Bishop college student, and Bishop named a building for her later. And the other girl was seriously injured, but she survived. And I saw her about, oh, maybe eight or nine, ten years later in Denver, Colorado. She was...
END OF TAPE II 28
TAPE III
CW: I had a question that I meant to ask you awhile ago, which was, were you aware of a newsletter that was circulated within the Black community here in Marshall, called Like It Is?
IJ: No, I'm not aware of that.
CW: This was in the '60s, I guess, and maybe early '70s.
IJ: No. Your investigation has gone a little farther, you know, than mine on that. I was not aware of that. But I don't think the stud...I don't know that the students had that letter.
CW: I think it was from the community, like the NAACP, the ah...
IJ: It could have been. But the NAACP was not called into that student movement until the incidents that I told you with the kids having been arrested. And the call came from a won-derful Christian lady who happened to have been the executive of YWCA. And she was interested in getting Mae Cortiss, the national president out of prison here. And when they refused to accept the bond money that was set, then this lady thought she should get legal advice. And she contacted Thurgood IJ: Marshall, and put him on this conversational hookup. And he simply said, "Don't." But he didn't know me, you know. He just said, "Ms. Jenkins, don't worry; we have a repre-sentative of the NAACP in Dallas, and I will contact 29
him and he will contact your local NAACP." Now, Ebenezer was just as ignorant about what was going on, until the kids were arrested. Then the church people - Black church people - of Marshall became concerned, especially when the judge would not accept cash bonds and demanded property bonds. Then they had to come together to contact people who were willing to put up their homes. But I know nothing about, you know, any planned act on the part of the total Black community. This was a student Civil Rights Movement, with which I was acquainted. And, to me, truth is truth, and the truth makes you free. I feel...I'm very proud of those young people, because in a sense they put their lives, you know, or their lives could have been at stake, especially when they were threatened with dogs. And the people of the community...it seems to me the White community were just as ignorant as, you know, as many of the Black people. Just amazed; and I think the whole commu-nity was transformed. And I believe this is why Marshall is something of a model of the small city of its size in race relations. The library opened up, you know, to Blacks. And you had Black assistants there. Mrs. B. and the librarian who's being honored tomorrow night at a banquet...Mrs. Morris is a longtime librarian there. I worked with her in the IJ: development of the library. We got a grant from the Texas Humanities...
CW: I saw that...
IJ: Yes. Did you see it? And I was asked to comment on it Jenkins, Inez
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from a humanities point of view.
CW: To evaluate it?
IJ: Evaluate it from a humanitarian point of view. And there again reflected in - I don't remember, it's been a longtime ago, and I'm not sure of the all the things that I said - but what I expressed to you a moment ago is that I don't believe in going backwards; I believe in going forward. And we have become globally connected now; therefore, we're going to have to learn how to relate to one another. To me, the whole question is a spiritual one and a human one.
CW: Is there...I mean, in looking back at the movement, if you could change things, was there something that you think should have been done differently?
IJ: Well, I'm, of course...now, I was an adult, and I was in charge of students on campus. Their welfare was in my care, in a sense, and I took that seriously. But I also think that the community of Marshall took seriously the care and welfare of the students. And I think there might have been a little more trust, on the students' part, in the older generation. But then they...I think they wanted to protect us. They probably understood some of the dynamics, you know, of the affect of what they were going to do upon the older IJ: generation, and I think they wanted to protect us. They wanted to do it themselves. They wanted a student movement.Jenkins, Inez
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CW: What happened to the movement?
IJ: What happened to the movement?
CW: Yeah, after the...
IJ: The students graduated and went their way. Oh, I...when you called me, I thought of an article that I have, written by one of the students who was part of the movement. He com-pleted his doctorate degree. He was head of the youth - some kind of government youth authority - in New York City, and even ran to be mayor of New York City. Of course, he didn't win. But he's a minister, pastors a church, and he's is a journalist, as well. And he sent me a beautiful copy; if I get your address I could send you this material.
CW: That would be wonderful!
IJ: I could send you this material. Now, as I said, most of them were ministers, and they completed their ministerial training, and they are pastoring churches out in Philadelphia, in New York, in Dallas, in Houston, in Carolina, etc. So, the movement...they thought they had accomplished what, you know, what they set out to do. One of the boys from Bishop donned jeans and overalls and went and worked with [inaudible] group. You probably know the...
CW: No.
IJ: I had a book here that I borrowed with her picture and her accomplishments. She was outstanding in the total Civil IJ: Rights Movement. But this was the Marshall, Texas, Jenkins, Inez
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Student Rights Movement, and it was they who brought about the change; who developed an awareness about it, and put their lives on the line for it.
CW: Why do you think that younger students after these, this group, graduated, why didn't other ones continue...
IJ: Well, you see, I think some of them did, but they were disseminated across the nation when they graduated from Bishop and Wiley. They had to make their way professionally, you know; and they got married, they had families, they had to look after their families, you see. And then as ministers they, some of them, included the message, continued the message, through their ministry, by trying to help Blacks in different situations. Some of them became lawyers. I think one or two became lawyers, and I'm sure they... But as a united movement, no. And even the YWCA is no longer active on many of these campuses; I don't hear very much of the con-tinuation. And, you see, I think the whole thing became a global concern, whereas it was not concentrated, you know, in a particular area. It became a national and a global thing.
CW: Do you think that they thought the work was done here locally?
IJ: Well, I don't think they thought about it so much in those terms, but they did accomplish what they set out to do -to integrate the schools - and Mrs. Wilson and the NAACP continued, you know, the process of integration. This is why Jenkins, Inez
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IJ: I said it took, you know, time, from 1954 until the '60s. And now there's some people who think that even the Whites of Dallas were happy that Bishop was coming, and supported it coming to Dallas, because it would keep them [Blacks] out of the White university, Blacks out of the White. So you have a counter-movement too, you know. And I don't think well-defined and structured, but surreptitiously, you know, taking place. And there's still Blacks who are involved in mak...in trying to make things right. But now the focus is more on economics, you see. And I think that's where the spirit of Jesus is moving. I'm putting it in Christian theological terms, that he's letting us know that we can destroy our globe, our environment,- by over-using the resources and not sharing them in such a way that everybody has food, shelter, ...what's the other need we have - home, you know, shelter - and food and clothing and opportunity to educate ourselves. I think it's possible, you know, if we really...I listened to a doctor. He expressed my opinion perfectly, when he said that he thinks that we express too much individualism. Now, we need to stress community, don't you think so? And I think that those kids, who were a part of the movement in Marshall, had two goals. They had to pursue their goals of the becoming educated and prepared to make a living and a life, but at the same time, they had something to do as a student at that moment in time. And Jenkins, Inez
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they accomplished it in Marshall. They did. They brought about the change, and they were willing to IJ: do what it took. But they also had to make a life for themselves. They had to prepare for their professions, and now they are ministers and teachers and doctors and, you know, that sort of thing. And they are still...they still have the concern, but their movement is different, you know; they are part of the community movement. They're working on boards and commissions, and they are running for political office. And this President - although I think he's paying for itl, because we've almost developed a mean spirit against Mr. Clinton; he doesn't quite deserve it, I don't think, you know - but he's said, "America has a diversified, you know, ethnic culture, and, therefore, the government should reflect that." So, he's appointed Blacks, you know, here and there. And I think that man has a vision - a global vision - but he was an innocent, to a great extent, about how Washington worked, you know. And perhaps having himself been exposed like many of us Blacks. We had a lot of sanguine, innocent, love for America, and we thought all Americans thought like we did. I think Mr. Clinton thought most Americans thought as he did, you know. He wanted to do good, but you know you have corporate America, and if he's stepping on corporate America's, you know,...
CW: Toes?Jenkins, Inez
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IJ: Yes, he's being challenged. And now...and I don't believe he was too sanguine about what was happening, you know, in eastern Europe. He thought Somalia was settled by what Mr. Bush had done, and that we were over there doing IJ: good. And, lo and behold, you know, it developed into something else. So, I think he was just naive, you know, innocent there. But I really think he wants to do good for all segments, but it's a difficult job in these times. He was right. Economics that...now who was it who said the economy's stupid? Well, the Methodist mission study says, "It's the global economy, stupid." And to me, in answer...I know I'm going afar field... But what I'm trying to say is that those young people had two tasks - to prepare themselves for their profession, but at the same time to address a need that, whose time had come. And they did it. Now they are continuing to do it, but, you know, as ministers and teachers, but in a non-violent manner. And I think in an intelligent, human, reasonable way. They are human like anybody else. They want a home, you know. They want a car. They want education for their children, you know, and that sort of thing. So, they are trying to contribute to the good values and good life of America. But, as I said, unfortunately, while they were pursuing that and thinking everything was much better, the economy, the economic downturn, has created this underclass, the poor people. The Jenkins, Inez
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gap between the poor and the rich. And the middle class Blacks, out of urban areas as the immigrants from, the migration of Blacks from the rural south took over and they had no economic base.
CW: Did that happen here in Marshall? I mean, did people during the Civil Rights Movement...were the Blacks then free CW: to move into White neighborhoods?
IJ: Yes, yes, and they have! And you see, they have built ...they developed a wonderful community of their own on Fisher Drive. If you have time just to drive down Fisher Drive, it's all Black - lovely homes that they themselves have built, beautifully kept. They participate in the Christmas Festival, you know, making their homes beautiful; and then many Blacks live in the White communities. Now, many who come in as business associates, you know...White businesses of government here have come in looking for the kind of home that they had been accustomed to, and they find it in the White community; they buy it.
CW: That's interesting. So, does that mean as outsiders, quote and unquote?
IJ: Some are outsiders. Some are people who were born and have lived here all their lives. The Lamont boys...Lamont worked for one of the banks; now I think he works in Longview, and his wife works with one of the government organizations. And they bought or built a home in a White Jenkins, Inez
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neighborhood. The Hopkins family - Pauline and her husband Mack, he was one of the famed Tuskegee air pilots, and they retired from and left Los Angeles where they had made their home. Sold their home there, and they bought a home, you see. And they were accustomed to that, because they both had been in the Army, and the Army had exposed them to an integrated life. Los Angeles had, you know, exposed them to that. So when they IJ: came here, they found the kind of home they wanted in, you know, in the predominately White community, and so they bought a home there. Not all outsiders. Some of them reared and educated here and returned. But to me it is just the... when you study history and you see how people, you know, interchange cultures...America was peopled by the native Indians, and now it belongs to us and them. All right, well, I think that's it to me - it is both political, but it is also cultural and human, and maybe it's class, too. Black society is stratified just like White society, into your upper, middle, and lower; and, unfortunately, economy decides it, to a great extent. Birth, you know, explains it, to some extent. But America is a mobile society where lower can become middle, and upper and upper can slide down, you know. So please forgive me if I'm not answering you as I should.
CW: Oh, no, no! You are!
IJ: But I'm trying to say, there is a movement in society Jenkins, Inez
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that seems to be a movement of its own; but the factors are economics and education and opportunity.
CW: You called Marshall a family community, early on. What did you mean by that?
IJ: Yes. Well, I think that it was settled by families who contributed to the development and progress of the city. And they developed businesses, or became officials, you know, and it was part of the heritage. And so, it is more of a family community. And I think, to some degree, the people who may IJ: control the economy here have a vision about it. They want the community...I don't think they want Marshall to become urbanized, let us say, like Dallas or maybe even like Longview. I think they want it to remain - and I'm not sure I have the words - urban; it is a city, but a small city, where family values, you know, are maintained. The schools and colleges become the center of life and the church, you know, is the center. And that's what I mean. The family is really the what? - the hub; it's the family orientation, and all of us start in the family. The human race, I guess, started that way. And so, I think that the people who actually - I don't say control the government, but who guide it; I don't want to use the control word - I don't know who those people are, myself, but I think in every community this size, you have families who sort of...
CW: Sure, leading families.Jenkins, Inez
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IJ: Yes, they are leading families. They are the dominant families, not only economically, but economics is so much, you know, at the bottom of it. But the value system which they have, you know, of maintaining a certain, you know, quality of life in the community. And I think the quality of life in Marshall has been very good. Although I'm told that since the drug culture has developed so that some of these drug - I don't know what you call them, the people who control it nationally or regionally - look for small towns because the police control is not as strong, and they can set up, you IJ: know, places of distribution. And they feel that they will not be caught, you know, because those smaller cities don't have the security of the police force that the larger communities have. I don't know whether that's true or not, but there are some people who fear...who say that because we're a small city some drugs are coming into Marshall because we don't have a strong enough police force. Although Marshall is alert, and I understand that they have caught, you know, large amounts of drugs that come through. But I believe that explanation, you know, might be true - that because we're a small city they think they...
CW: ...Get away with it!
IJ: ...get away with it.
CW: I had a couple of questions that are just sort of factual. One is, do you know what songs...did the students Jenkins, Inez
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sing certain songs during the demonstration?
IJ: Well, as I remember most of this, there is one song that, of course, became a part of the movement.
CW: "We Shall Overcome."
IJ: "We Shall Overcome." But it seems to me that the songs that I remembered that the kids sang were the old hymns, you know, that their churches and their families, you know, had taught them, that they had learned in churches. Now, it's been a long time ago, but I'm trying to think of a particular song that they sang. Although there is one song that seems militant.
CW: "Onward Christian Soldiers."
IJ: Yes, but they didn't...
CW: They didn't use that one?
IJ: They didn't interpret it in the militant sense. If you read the words, you will know that it is not a militant song, although it seems so. Well, that one and "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Coming of...
CW: "The Battle Hymn of the Republic?"
IJ: Yes, "The Battle Hymn of the Republic." They sang that, and they sang "Jesus Is All the World to Me." But "Amazing Grace" was also one of the themes, you know, coming from the older generation. But I know they must have had other songs, you know, that...as I said, we were not the confidants. The older people were not the confidants. We Jenkins, Inez
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were surprised by a lot of the things that happened. But after that first march, when they were hosed, then we were willing to march with them for their protection.
CW: Oh, uh-huh.
IJ: Do you see, even the president, Dr. Cole, president of the college, walked with them.
CW: When?
IJ: During the student movement. Not, you know, in the protest fashion, but when the students, after this hosing and all of that, and they marched again, the president marched with them.
CW: I didn't realized they had marched a second time? Where CW: did they where did they go?
IJ: They did! Oh, they did! Around the courthouse.
CW: The same day?
IJ: No, not the same day.
CW: Uh-huh.
IJ: But they marched again. Now the sequence of it, you know, it's been a long time, and I've written about it and I have two articles that the Marshall News Messenger published, that I wrote. And...but now as time goes on, you know, the sequence of the events are not as clear to me. But let me tell you, when I knew that my students were challenged by the police is when they tried to desegregate the bus station - the Trailways or Greyhound. I've forgotten which, maybe Jenkins, Inez
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Trail-ways. They marched around the Trailways. But when the president marched with the students, it was the attitude, and all of that was different. He went, you know, in a protective sense and just protected them. And I think he had one or two of the personnel from the college, you know, to go along. In other words...now this was the Wiley College president... you see, they thought that a couple who had come to us from New York were the leaders of this, but they were not. This man had once been, well, associated, not with Communism, as such, but with a liberal movement, we thought. Gee, I can't, as well as I know him, I can't even think. He was a very learned, scholarly person who taught at... What is this magazine that had a so-called leftist philosophy? The new IJ: something?
CW: The New Republic?
IJ: It may have been. But at any rate, I think he had written articles for that magazine. But he and his wife had sort of moved away from that, you know, and they were on the campus at Bishop. And a lot of people associated the movement with him. But, you know, this was a student movement. Because when Mr. King himself...when he heard about the movement here after that march around the courthouse, and he sent them this wire that, you know,...
CW: Offering the money?
IJ: ...offering the money, the students said, "No, give it Jenkins, Inez
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to the poor. We can take care of it." So what I'm trying...I think I want...now, I know what the stereotype notion is, you know, about outsiders. They could have been, some of the Black people may have thought that, too, you understand, because Bishop and Wiley had students from all over the country. But I'm trying to say that there the time had come in a sense. And you...Mr. King, if you...I don't know whether you have heard him - you were too young, yes - to have heard him speak. But here this man, I think, was called for the purpose, and he was a student at Crozier Theological Institute. And he had engaged his mind with the minds of Reinhold, you know - the Nebuhr brothers and theologians, particularly Reinhold Niebuhr. And, you know, his theology had come out of a sort of social orientation, you know - the IJ: world and Christ, you know. And so, times were, in terms of philosophy and theology and political theology - social, political theology, and what was happening all over. So, I don't think you had somebody, we're going to go down there and change Marshall. I don't think Marshall was selected. I think you had students who were exposed to the humanities, to the philosophical and social part of the time, whose minds were engaged by...not only political, social philosophy, but by theology. You had James Coleman (?), you know. So, I think it was the times, and you had a culture in Marshall of educated people. Truly, I believe Jenkins, Inez
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that. People who had come out of ETBU, out of Bishop, out of Wiley, mostly religiously-oriented people - ministers, bishops. So, to me it was inevitable. There was no communist design in this at all, not at all. In fact, I hardly think communism was mentioned at Bishop and Wiley, to tell you the truth! I think we were too turned in on the possibilities in America. Thinking it was the most wonderful country on earth, and it had to be chal-lenged to do what it said it was. To be what it said it was. And those kids were learning government and politics, you know, in their classes. But you had no...now I may be naive, you see, but here I was in the middle of a situation where my students were being arrested. In fact, I went to the funeral of the wife of the former president of Wiley - Dr. Scott's wife, Mrs. Bertha Belle Scott, a wonderful, beautiful Christian lady. She sort of adopted me into the family, so I IJ: went to her funeral in Houston. And sitting in the living room after the services, someone turned the television on in their home. And the news came on; here were my girls - Mae Cortiss King, marching across across television where they had been apprehended because they were attempting to desegrate the bus station, the lunchroom, and the...
CW: This was on a Houston television station?
IJ: Yes. It was broadcast all over the state on the six o'clock news.Jenkins, Inez
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CW: What date was that? Do you remember?
IJ: Oh, my goodness! If I could remember when Mrs...it had to be in the '60's or '60...it must have been '60. You see, that was...
CW: That was the year when all this...
IJ: Yes, '60 was the year. And here I am all dressed up in funeral clothes, you know. And I had flown from Shreveport to Houston for the funeral, and I was going to catch a plane the next day. But instead, I said, "Oh, those are my girls - Mae Cortiss King? Somebody's got to get me to the train or bus or plane or something! I must get back to the campus!" So I'm saying, we didn't know what those kids were going to do. They had their plan. Now, I think...and I don't even think that they knew so much what the other kids were doing, but they probably did. You see, I think the Blacks students and their sororities and fraternities...
CW: Right. I just realized it's four o'clock. Do you know CW: how long we've been talking? Three hours.
IJ: Three hours!
CW: And I got to...I'm sorry to stop. I got a...
END OF TAPE III