THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: Hungarian Research Project
INTERVIEW WITH: Stephen Juhasz
DATE: June 15, 1988
PLACE: Institute Of Texan Cultures
INTERVIEWER: Patrick McGuire
TAPE I, SIDE 1
M: Why did you want to come to the United States?
J: Thank you, Pat. Before answering your questions permit me to tell to the transcriber that I apologize for my accent and for the need of translating this from the Juhasz Language into English.
This is quite a question and to answer you: I was born in...before the 1920’s, and during the 1920’s quite a few of my relatives emigrated from Hungary to the U.S.A. They were all professional people. They did not come neither for political reasons, as many people came in the l930’s, nor for reasons of making something financially. As many Hungarians came out between 1910 and 1920, so they were good professionals – doctors, engineers, scientists who found an interesting living and who told me about the great possibilities to excel in the profession, to move around, participate in so-called symposia (a word I never heard before, which has a fine meeting where specialists are
getting together from California to Florida and maybe from Juhasz 2
J: foreign countries, and which was absolutely unheard nor possible in Hungary. Of course, there was the big freedom – freedom for speech, for movement, for telling your own belief, even making jokes of the president which, again, was not only unheard of in Hungary, but in Hungary, I lived most of my life under a regent whom you could see only once or twice at a military parade or a function. But you never
J: knew what he is doing, and here you know what the president if going to eat the next day or has eaten this day.
Well, I knew, also, that this is a country where many
people want to come. I had difficulty in separating emigration and immigration, but I wanted to emigrate to the U.S. and, of course, after the end of World War II there was a military rule in Hungary, which was taken over by the political rule, supported by the Russian military presence. And I wanted, really yet more than before, to leave the country and come to the great America.
M: Steve, what did you think you would find in America? And had you ever heard of Texas at that time?
J: Well, let me answer, first, the second half of your question. I had heard very little of Texas. I just heard that this is the place where the cowboys are. When I had in my head America, the first picture, of course, was the skyscrapers of New York, the Statue of Liberty, large size. But I heard about Americans; so I got a picture of the Juhasz 3
J: American who is somebody who hurry, time is of essence, also who does not spend with the housewife any time to cook the meals. As a matter of fact, where there are no maid, unlike in Hungary. And where the housewife is preparing the meal from canned food, which takes very little time and where home-life is somehow different from the home-life in Hungary or in Europe.
J: I was 33 years old. I was eager to do something. I was an engineer who had an engineering company which I inherited from my father, and where there were good hopes that I will be able to continue to do good living through this company. I was, however, pessimistic, and I felt that eventually the Communist Party, which was not in power that that time, will take over, and we will not have the freedom – neither economically nor politically. And this is a small country [Hungary] and despite the many ties I had with the country, many friends and relatives. I have considered to leave the country and try to get to the Unites States. The reason I am saying, ‘try to get to the U.S.’, it was very difficult. There was a quota system, and according to the Hungarian quota existence at that time, I had to wait until about 20l0 AD prior to getting on the quota to enter the U.S. And I was an impatient person.
So, I wanted to do something to get out and decided to go to Sweden, where we had business connections, and I felt that I will be able to do something there until I get a way Juhasz 4
J: to come to the U.S. Now, this was not an easy decision. As a matter of fact, my sister and my late brother-in-law said that don’t leave Hungary, you will have a future here. Well, fortunately, I did not listen to them, and went to Sweden. I was there for a total of five years, and all the time my goal was to get to the U.S., and I worked toward this goal.
The way to accomplish this, I went back to the University. I got my graduate degree, worked on research, and considered to come to the U.S.A. as a so-called no-quota teacher. Now, when you are abroad and you are not an American citizen, to get your visa and emigrate, you have to go through the foreign-service. At that time there were no embassies – it was called Legation. It was the American Legation. Well, this was a hard part of my life.
[Here the tape broke]
J: For the U.S., seen through the Legation and its bureaucracy, was a nightmare. As I said, I had hard time with the American Legation in Sweden. I had actually received in 1951, after I had received degree – technology licenciate, which corresponds to Ph.D., I received shortly after that an invitation to come to the Massachusett’s Institute of Technology, as a research associate. This was entirely official, formal invitation, with the salary included in this letter of invitation. So I believed that I will be able to leave shortly for the U.S. which, however, Juhasz 5
J: was not the case. And not only did I not get the visa, but I was unable to speak with any official, and I was told on the phone for three months that we will notify you.
So I went to Canada – I had to hide that I was using Canada as a transit country, and I had also difficulties from the Canadians for they found out that I want to do it. They revoked my issued visa after I gave my position at the Royal Institute of Technology. I cancelled my resident, which was a very difficult decision, for there was an extreme shortage of rooms in Stockholm. And so I went to the Canadian Minister and said that I wanted to speak about my visa. He said that he is not handling visa cases; I should speak with the Consul. I said, “Sir, I came from the Consul, and I suppose that you want to hear my story for what happened was a juridical [?] murder.” The German call is a “justice mort”. I don’t know what is the English expression.
Pat, thank you for telling me, yes, death my justice. I told the Minister, and he listened after my outcry. I never lied; I was not asked whether I was going to the U.S. I did not lie. It is true that I did not tell the full truth. Had he asked me, I would have told him. So I got back my Canadian visa and went to Canada. And my first thing was again to go to the Consul, who looked over my papers. Incidentally, this was a great progress that I was able to speak with the Consul. But he said that my teachingJuhasz 6
J: was two years teaching, was only part-time. Therefore, I have to teach for the coming semester. So, I went to the University of Toronto. Fortunately, I got immediately a position, for had I not received a position immediately, my continue two year’s requirement would have been violated.
So, from September to May, I was a so-called demonstrator, which is a lower ladder in the teaching profession – there is a full professor, associate, assistant professor, instructor, janitor, and low before the janitor is the demonstrator. Nevertheless, I had to do this student, so I qualified for point of view of activity as demonstrator. So I went back very happily and made to the same Consul and I said, “Now I have an additional year of teaching.” While the Consul looked over all the papers, and incidentally, by that time I had about three-inch stack of papers what was required for me – all the birth certificates, certificates where I was living, recommendations, police reports, etc., etc. And he looked over all this and said, “Well, you cannot qualify before September.” “Why?” “Well, it has to be a calendar year.” So I went back to the University, and they got a little furious, and they said, “Well, you will do some work during the summer, and we will issue a certificate that you were teaching.” And they gave me some kind of activity where graduate student was also involved, and I was doing the same what the graduate student did in a routine testing. And I Juhasz 7
J: got a letter of recommendation that I did teaching for a full calendar year.
Eventually, I got to this country. But, before I tell you my experiences in this country, I would like to comment on impression American get, being outside the U.S. And then, an impression of the same American who is exposed to the same kind of bureaucracy after you had been in the
country and had achieved something.
It was 1951 when I emigrated to the U.S. And I don’t want to go into additional hardships what I went through at the Consulate and the Immigration Office, which was incidentally in Toronto, Canada, in the same building. Maybe I just tell you that I was tested for my English, despite that I was for one year in Canada in English. Also, I was nearly tricked to said that I belonged to an organization to which I did not belong, which turned out to be a communist organization. So, this is the dark side. Now comes wonderful and opposite side of my experience with an American foreign-service organization which by that time became an Embassy, rather than a Legation, and I am referring to my experience at Tokyo at the American Embassy in 1962. So eleven years after I have in the U.S.A., and I obtained a position which was a respected one where I had to do with fifteen hundred scientist from fifty countries. Those scientists were all the so-called reviewers of an international engineering journal which I was the editor.Juhasz 8
J: The purpose of my trip to Japan was to meet the thirty reviewers – most university professors – in Japan, and the trip was sponsored by the Air Force Office of Scientific Research, AFOSR, which I did not realize at the time was a most valuable piece of paper and opens a lot of doors and does a lot of good.
First thing, I was ushered in the first Legation Secretary’s office, who seated me and called in one of his colleagues who was to help me, and asked me if I had a calling card. I said, “No.” So they got all the information, printed me a calling card in Japanese and English. Then they assigned a driver to me, and also a translator. They organized the trip - I was for twelve in Japan. So a lot of the Japanese reviewers, they organized a party, which was held in one of the former palaces of the emporer. They go me the ticket to go to..., to..., etc., and arranged what was a most important series of sessions with Japanese publishers with interpreters. The purpose of the session was to convince the Japanese publishers to send books for review purposes, which seemed to be a very obvious thing which was done from publishers throughout the world, but where wee were absolutely unsuccessful.
Well, this whole treatment at the American Embassy in Japan was for fantastically different from the treatment that I got in Stockholm, where I was thrown out by a Juhasz 9
J: telephone operator once when I was sneaking and speaking with a Legation person. But I, in all fairness to the U.S.A, in retrospect, I understand it. They did not know who OI am. I was a nobody coming...an immigrant coming from Hungary, wishing to go to the U.S. They did not knew whether I am a communist or not, or what I am. And I saw the U.S. in entirely different view.
M: Steve, let’s talk now about your experience in Texas. We will obviously skip a lot of your brilliant career and come to the point now when you found out that you would be coming to Texas. And tell us a little bit about the year and where you began to work here.
J: Well, Pat, permit me very briefly to tell you I started at the M.I.T., when I came to the U.S.A. I was there less than two years, due to cuts in budget. I had to look for another opening, and I found an excellent one at the Midwest Research Institute, where I became the second man in charge of this international magazine about which I spoke earlier – APPLIED MECHANICS REVIEWS. I was there two years only when my boss, Martin Goland, took an offer from the Southwest Research Institute to become a vice-president. So he asked me to come down to San Antonio, Texas, to continue to do the same kind of work that I did in... Pat, you asked what year this was – this was in 1953.
M: Okay, in 1953 was your first introduction to Texas, Steve. Now previously you said you had only heard about Juhasz 10
M: cowboys in Texas. I am not going to ask you about your about your professional career, but your own personal reactions. Did you find cowboys? Or what did you find down here?
J: Well, before...let me add something. When I was asked to come to Texas, and particularly to San Antonio, I said, “Where?” He said, “San Antonio.” Frankly, I did not know nothing about San Antonio. I knew about Sanct Anton in Austria – a beautiful skiing place, and Knew of Sanct Anton, which is an important saint for the Catholic religion – for if you lost anything and you offer money to St. Anthony, he helps you to find it. I was very reluctant to come to Texas and, as a matter of fact, I was so reluctant that my boss said, “Well, Stephen, maybe come down to San Antonio to visit.” I still worked at Midwest Research. He was already here. “And then you can see with your own eyes.” I came down in 1953 for a few days’ visit with my former and potentially future boss, and found this is not the end of the world.
As a matter of fact, the day when I arrived I was taken to a party and I was...I met there some persons who at that time were not well-known to the general public, but who impressed me as being something unusual. Also the following persons at that time, there was at that time a manager, a director or banker, Mr. Walter McAllister. Then there was a juvenile probation officer at the party, Henry B. Gonzales. Juhasz 11
J: an oil-man, who after his death, left millions for educational purposes. Mrs. Minnie Stevens Piper, and so on.
So, I felt, well, this is not the end of the world, even if this is a cowboy place. So I came down. But, now I answer to your question: do I find cowboys? Well, it took me quite a while to see any cowboys, but it was at the time in S.A. a very small town or a huge village.
M: Was there any culture there.
J: Well, to answer your question, understand this: there used to be an opera house, but there is an opera only three or four days per year, which I felt is a very favorable thing. And this added to my decision that I move permanently to San Antonio, for I was an opera buff, and I participated in operas in Kansas City. So my first thing when I moved down in June 1953 (this was 35 years ago) to S.A. I joined the opera choir, and it was my pleasure to sing in quite a few operas. But at that time the downtown was...there was no HemisFair, There was no River Mall, but the city was a bustling city. There were lots of stores. The life, the center of the life, was still downtown. And, it was not what they sometimes say: a dangerous city in the downtown.
M: Okay, Steve, we’ve now got you to Texas. How soonJuhasz 12
J: after you arrived did you meet any other Hungarian people in S.A. or in Texas?
J: Well, this is very simple to answer you. For one reason why I came to Texas was also that I received P.S. in a letter from my future boss, Martin Goland and this was handwritten by a lady, Mrs. Elizabeth Betty Caroline. She was of Hungarian descent, and she said that we are heard that you might come here, and we Hungarians such as the Seabase family and others are very excited. And come down. So when I arrived, I met Betty Caroline, who was a secretary of Martin Goland, and soon I met Paul Seabase who used to work at the Southwest Research Institute who became a professor of physics at Trinity University. And this was also in 1953, and there was a small group of Hungarians, like Michael Balint and the Nagys – the late Alex Magy was then professor at St. Mary’s University, also financial officer of the Lone Star Brewery. And we got together in a very informal way.
The formal way of getting together in a larger scale with Hungarians was shortly after the Hungarian Revolution. And this revolution was in 1956, September, and the first Hungarian came to S.A. in November, I believe. This Hungarian was from Hungary, was a young man –18 years of age – he was brought by his grandfather or the brother of his grandfather, who was a S.A. resident to Southwest Research. He didn’t spoke a single word English, and he wanted to workJuhasz 13
J: at Southwest Research Institute. His name is Andrew Nagy, and he did not get the job. But, while trying to get him a job there, and eventually getting him a job elsewhere – this was a time when some Hungarians, mostly Paul Seabase decided that we should get a formal organization - the purpose of this organization being to help the Hungarians who started to come in - the refugees of the revolution of 1956. Now, actually, I was not in any way connected with the formation of this first Hungarian Association - this was purely the doing of two families or, let us say, the three families. The one was Paul Seabase, who with his wife Inka, formed this organization and with the active participation of Michael Balint, who was then a young student at Trinity University and who was later adopted by the Executive Director of the Minnie Stevens Piper Foundation, Dr. William Wiederhold. I was working with the Hungarian Club, and I became a member for the first time, and we worked together to help the Hungarian refugees. One was the Safran couple -Stephen and Rose Safran. We knew when they arrived, and we...I mean the Nagys, I think Michael Balint and myself, and I think Mrs. Seabase were waiting at the train station for the arrival of the Safrans.
I have to correct what I said. There were others also at the train station. One of them became the vice-president of a large hotel chain but is no longer living in San Antonio. The new Hungarians joined, the refugees, joinedJuhasz 14
J: also the Hungarian Club, and this club was quite active until the time of the departure of the Seabases. Paul got a position with the U.S. Army Tank Command, somewhere in the midwest and left San Antonio. The Hungarian Club was in existence from 1f961-62, when the Seabases left, formally until 1976, but there was no activity. It was dormant. In otherwise, it was legally in existence but not de facto.
M: What about your feelings and those of the Seabases and the Nagys who had come out of Hungary immediately after W.W.II toward the 56ers who began to arrive in San Antonio in the fall of 1956? They were fellow-Hungarians and refugees also, but were they the same type of people that you had been when you came out? Was there any difference in...were they younger people, or how would you characterize them?
J: Pat, before answering your question, I have to clarify something. The name Nagy – Nagy means in Hungarian for ‘great’, and there were as many Nagy’s as there are Smiths in this country. So I have to clarify. I spoke about Nagy, and there are two kinds of Nagy’s. There are...they were good friends, but not relatives. The first Nagy, about who I spoke was Alex Nagy, and the lataer Nagy was Bondi, or Andrew Nagy. Now Nagys and the Seabases, they left Hungary after W.W.II. They were both in the Hungarian army, and they escaped in front of the Russians. They were about the Juhasz 15
J: same age, and Hungarians came from so many different professions, so many different geographical areas, that you cannot generalize and compare them with the latter comers. The latter comers went through, maybe, more hardships in Hungary, but they were just as Hungarian as those who left earlier. And, incidentally, I might add here, that when I came to U.S., one of my greatest surprise, after having been for five years in Sweden, that you cannot speak about an average American. You can make a statistical figure, you can make a so-called ‘average American’. This person has average height, average income, average weight, etc., but there are very few persons who are the average, and this was very different from Sweden, where the society at that time was very homogenous, and you could speak about the average Swede.
But if you speak about the average American, you don’t find him. You can compute him, or reconstruct him on the computer, but he dies bit exist. So, you question what...?
M: My question was, Steve, was there any difference between earlier refugees from W.W.II and the 56ers who came after the uprising in Budapest? For example, there was an age difference, the 56ers had lived part of their lives under communist regime. Was there any difference in attitudes between the older and newer immigrants.
J: I cannot directly answer this, for there is a hypothetical question. Had the earlier group been exposed Juhasz 16
J: to the same kind of treatment as the latter, the younger group under the Russians? Had they acted the same way, or not? What I can say, however, that the group which came out in ’56 was very courageous, very idealistic, not money-hungry. And they fighted, they endangered their lives for freedom, and they all came here to find freedom and came to a country where they didn’t knew the language and where they suspected that they will have difficulties due to their ignorance about the culture, language, habits and so on. But also, where they were ignorant about something, as this was a surprise to all of us who were living in American, how the general public in the U.S. and the officials will respond to these mass exodus of 93,000 Hungarians, 95 percent of whom did not speak the language, and how there were incorporated in the U.S.A. very fast.
I was, frankly, very jealous, for when I came I went the hard way to get in. I had the red tape. They walked into the American Consulate in Vienna and got the visa immediately – not only the visa, but also some funds to fly to the U.S. and so on. And, we know that what this young group went through and what the old group went through, but we don’t know how the old group would have reacted had they been under the same condition. Most like, they would have reacted the same way.
M: Thank you. Let me ask you now about the San Antonio Hungarian Association. You have mentioned the foundation of Juhasz 17
M: it in 1956 – to aid these refugees – and the reactivation of the club in 1976. What was...can you quantify and discuss the desire on the part of the Hungarian Americans at this point to preserve elements of their Hungarian heritage?
J: Yes, I will try to answer your question. In 1976, old Hungarian Club was defunct, and we realized, some of us, that the goal of the original club has been completed and there would be quite a different goal. So, we spoke with some of the officers who were on the paper still in charge of the first club, and a meeting was called, and I think the old officers said that if we – and I want to qualify, there are three of us: the late Alex Nagy, Michael Balint and myself – want to form a club, that they would not object. All in the old cub would be legally dissolved. So, this happened, and we formed the new club, this was incorporated, and the goal was now entirely different from the old goals. And the goal was to preserve the Hungarian heritage, culture, get some Hungarians together, and it would be a combination of a...which would be mostly an ethnic club with a goal to preserve the Hungarian heritage, but at the same time, it would be a social club.
The club has met perfectly the second goal – the social aspect. There were good friendships and the good cooperation, mostly during the Folklife Festival. To answer the first question – the Hungarian heritage, in one respect,Juhasz 18
J: was beautifully preserved – namely, to operate for (the last) ten years a Hungarian booth at the Folklife Festival.
Now, credit here goes to several persons: the first was Mike Balint who was the chairman of the first one, and later it was Rose Safran, another president, and the latest president is also Stephen Safran. I participated myself at the Folklife Festival, but I was just a peon. And one thing that I did – and I am proud of this - that we had a pamphlet of Hungarian history, and we gave this out.
But, I was not responsible neither for selling food, preparing...that was the hard work. I want also to clarify one thing which will go on the record - this is the role of the Seabases on the first San Antonio Hungarian Association. Without the Seabases on the first San Antonio Hungarian Association and the first group would have never got together, which would have also done the establishment of the second club very difficult or maybe even impossible
for quite a few members of the first club who were at that time of the formation of the second club were not...who were still here, participated in the second club and are participating. However, it was mentioned Mrs. Inka Seabase was a wonderful person who contributed very essentially to the first club, did not suggest the formation of the second club.
Now, I will have to tell you another thing, also, about the second Hungarian Club. There was a period where there Juhasz 19
J: were formal presentations such as lectures, and they attended some of the intellectuals, and there were some new members who liked to hear concerts and formal lectures. Incidentally, one of our very successful doings was – and this I worked with Michael Balint – was a big Bartok Festival at the grounds of the Institute of Texan Cultures, as you certainly know, Pat. This was, I think, in the early 1980s, and this was celebrating, I think it was an anniversary of Bartok’s birth. And, this was a complicated program, and we were able to have between two and three hundred persons exposed to Bartok music, to the history of Bartok’s life, and so on.
Now, what I would like to see in the Hungarian Club is to keep the cultural aspect but reemphasize their culture and heritage through some lectures. I was for one year program chairman, and we had some ten lectures, and I think maybe the mistake what I made that we had too many lectures. And, we should have had four or five, which would enable those who are more intellectuals to participate and keep also those who are less interested in the lectures and more in the social aspect. In other words, we need a little more balanced aspect.
M: Thank you, Steve. We will return in just a moment.
J: ...not communist, and they were the only country among the communist bloc countries who participated at Los Angeles Olympic games. This is a false picture, and I support the Juhasz 20
J: Hungarian, the Houston Hungarian group’s effort to withdraw this most favored nation status.
M: Thank you, Steve. I would like to ask you about the future of the San Antonio, the Houston, and any other organized group of Hungarians in the state of Texas will be into the next generation.
J: Well, let me maybe tell you about what has happened about the Hungarians living in different cities in Texas. Again, I have to go back to Mike Balint who tried to get together the Hungarians in various cities, and he organized three times an all-Hungarian picnic. The last was in Bastrop. I hope that the different Hungarians can get together and do something jointly. Now, if we speak about Hungarians in general in the U.S., I have to give you a sad feeling that this is unfortunately that those Hungarians, who insist that their children should speak also Hungarian, is decreasing, and we see this very clearly in Cleveland, Ohio, which used to be the second largest Hungarian city in the world. If we see, or the SAHA or the Houston group or the Dallas group, those Hungarians who are teaching their children to speak Hungarian is decreasing. Our effort to teach the Hungarian language was a failure. I tried this. I might blame myself that I was not a good teacher, but inherently, people say, “Why should I take so much effort?” And unless the parents are speaking at home with children Hungarian, this effort is diminishing. So, I don’t know Juhasz 21
J: about the future. I hope. I am prepared for the worst and hope for the best.
M: Thank you, Steve.