THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: Harold Lewis
DATE: October 22, 1987
PLACE: Woodville, Texas (Chester)
INTERVIEWER: Iris Wiedenfeld
IW: Today is October 22, 1987. I'm Iris Wiedenfeld,
Woodville, Texas. I 'm talking today with Harold Lewis at
his home near Chester, Texas. Other voices you may hear are
Paul Walker, Christine Sanders , and Mr. Lewis' wife, Wilma
Seamans Lewis.
Mr. Lewis, I have heard that you grew up in a cotton
patch. So if you'll tell us your cotton patch story, we'd
be interested in that.
L: All right. In 19 and 22, we really moved to farming
really got into the farming business, and that was our
only source of income we had ••• was cotton. My daddy
raised that type. When we ••• I was growing up in that
cotton patch, we done all the work ourselves. No machinery;
it was all mules. And we grew up in that cotton patch and
we worked the cotton, planted the cotton, and done all the
harvesting ourselves. We didn't hire anyone. Lots of years
we'd start to picking that cotton the latter part of
September, and pick it every day •.• it wasn't raining or
something ••• we picked that cotton 'til we finished. We
LEWIS 2
L: finished lots of times at Ch~istmas time. Cold
weather. And we worked with that as a livelihood. We
didn't hi~e it done - we needed the money. And we picked it
out ourselves.
IW: Well, when you were young, you didn't start school
until after the cotton crop was in. Is that correct?
L: Yeah. We started school, but we lived right next to
the school, and when school was out, I went in that cotton
patch and stayed ' til dark. And then every morning I went
to school. But I lived right there at the school ••• right
at Chester. That's the only school I ever went to in my
life was the Chester School. And we .•• I went to school
there and got what little schooling I got there in Chester.
And we went to that cotton patch just as quick as that
school was stopped.
IW: Where was the gin you took your cotton to?
L: Just the other side of Chester stores. You know those
buildings on 1745, on the othe~ end of it, see, it comes
from Colmesneil, goes out here to Chester, then it joins
again on 287, goes out to Barnes. Well, it was just on the
other side of Chester, less than a mile other side of
Chester. We carried it a mile.
IW: That gin's been gone a number of years, hasn't it?
L: Oh, yes ma'am. I worked there when I was a kid. I was
in and out of there 'til I was grown.
IW: What's the story that I hear that you know about
somebody storing their cotton, waiting for the price to go
up .
LEWIS 3
L: Well, that happened. One of them was in Cherokee,
Uncle John Pa~sons; Willie Parsons's daddy. It was during
the war ••• World War I ••• and he harvested this cotton,
and it was 49 cents a pound. It got t o 49 cents a pound,
was highest in the histo~y back there then until (NOISE)
Well, he wanted 50. He held it.
And after I was a grown man ••• I'm talking about a
grown man, now ••• before I married ••• I'm talking about
21, 22 years old. We went down and got that cotton. The
bags ••• they were off the ground, but the bags was s o
rotten, you couldn't catch hold of them without tearing the
bags off of them. That's what was left there, you know.
And brought it to Chester and repressed it and rebagged it
and shipped it. And I believe I'm safe in saying, we got
6 1/2 cents a pound. And the same thing had happened at
Polk County , with a Nowland ••• Sam Nowland. I helped haul
that cotton. Me and two old colored boys.
IW: I believe that you were in the livestock business.
L: All my life.
IW: All your life? Did you have the same place where you
raised the cotton. Is that where you had your stock?
L: No, ma'am. Then we had an open range, and that run
f~om Rockland to Corrigan and back out to here. I'm talking
before we had a stock law.
How many years ••• 20 years? About 20 years, and then
before then you had range, we called it, you know. Cattle
range run from here to the railroad, which was about 10
miles.
LEWIS 4
IW: so what was your brand? Your mark, so you could tell
yours from everybody else.
L: Mine was HS, connected, always together, and I used
that brand from almost from the time I started. I started
out very young and didn't have too many cattle when I was
real small. When I got about ••• aw ••• about 13 years old,
my granny give me •.. Granny Lewis ••• gave me a cow and I
started from there and raised several head. And then when I
kept messing with them and always kept a few of them all
time ••• and when I was 17 years old , I went into the cow
business. I called it cow business ••• it was beef to me.
It ain't to a rancher in West Texas.
Me and Buck Veal, J.L. Veal got, bought up around 300
head of cattle. I lived in Chester. And he would buy all
those cattle in Chester ••• wasn't no fencing around, no
pastures around. We just let them run there in town.
I started in from there. I started moving them towards
the river. And I stayed thataway 'til I married . Just kept
going the other way with those cattle, 'til I got down on
the river. And I married in '34. September '34. And I
just kept increasing those cows and me and Buck ••• to go
back to me and Buck ••• is that all right?
IW: Sure.
L: All right. Me and Buck decided •.• Buck was in the gin
business at Chester •.• Buck decided he wanted to sell his
share of those cows. Well, I wasn't able to buy them at all
because, of course, we didn't give nothing for 'em just
8 l/2 ••. the average about ••• the grown cow average about
LEWIS 5
L: 8 1/2 around. Well, we ••. I wasn't able to buy half
interrest in that much cattle, so I just told Buck ••. I says
••• I tell you what let's do ••• you wanta sell your gin. Why
don't you sell your half ••• get you a buyer ••• I'll get 'em
up. All right.
We called a man by the name of Lee Langston in
Nacogdoches, and he come down and I showed him those cows. I
separated them. I told Buck ••. I said, "Buck, you pick out
you a man that you want to represent you." Buck never did
see them. He wouldn't a knew one of 'em if it got in his
yard, you know. He said ••• told me "I don't want one."
I said, "Well, I got ever, uh, if I'm gonna keep 'em, you
know I want the best ones." He said, "That's all right. Just
keep the best 'uns." Said, "You just pick out what you want."
I separated the cattle and ••• I separated them just as near
as I could. Him a good one, me a good one, him a sorry one,
me a sorry one.
And I separated them like that. He sold his cattle to
Lee Langston ••• moved them over here to Mr. Tom Pate's,
dipped them out •. had t o dip them then •• dipped them out,
and the cattle went to •• instead of taking ' em on to
Nacogdoches with him, he sold them to Mr. Tom Pate. Put 'em
on Caney Creek down here •• After I married, I seen those
old cattle down there lots of times. Belonged to Tom Pate
then.
IW: Did you have much trouble rounding up yours from all the
others that were running on the range?
L: No, ma'am. You'd ••• if you'd taken ••• oh, some strayed
LEWIS 6
L: off , all right, and maybe you 'd depended on him •• just
like he depend on you, you know. Never had any trouble.
Didn't even think about that. Never did think about losing
cattle.
IW: Well, did you use dogs?
L: Oh, yes, ma'am.
CS : Curs? Black mouth cur?
L: Let me tell you what I used more in the l a t e years
I'd say last 30 years ••• I used a Speck Risinger dog . They
come out any color in the world.
CS: That's a black mouth cur.
L: And some of them would be ••• I had two that we called
Old Speck.
CS: What color were they?
L: Now they was speckled. They got that name from their
color.
CS : I thought it was from Speck Risinger.
L: No. Now. That was right too. That ' s one of the
reasons we call ed it that. They was white dogs with red
specks a ll ove r .
CS: Was that how Speck Risinger got his name? Or was ••• ?
L: No.
CS : Red headed and •••
L: No.
L: Speck Risinger got his name , I think • •• I 'm not
telling you this as exactly right. He got his name from his
uncle. Old Speck had an uncle and ••• an old bachelor ,
LEWIS 7
L: lived out there where Speck's place is now. He used
Speck and Joe Bass and Kirby Polk and all, lived out
there every minute they could. When Daddy didn't have 'em
doing something at home or in the field or something, they
was out there with the old man. And I think that old man
gave him his name as Speck. That's the way I got the
history of it.
PW: I never knew.
L: Ask old Kirby Polk. Is he still living? Ain't a one
of 'em, I don't guess, still living. Speck's wife might
could tell you.
CS: Yeah. I never asked Blanche Risinger.
L: I know her real well.
CS : Excuse me for interrupting.
IW: I think Paul wanted to asked you a question about
Boone's ferry.
PW: Yeah. I was talkin' with old Dub Crews. Of course,
you know he's subject to telling lies.
L: Yeah. He's bad about it.
PW: Only when he's got his mouth open. But he told me as a
boy ••• you know their old place was up there close to
Boone's place.
L: Yeah.
PW: He said he remembered the .•• some woven baskets or
some ••• what did they call 'em ••• like a fish net, but
made out of ••• out of vines wood. And he said that they
••• he was told that they were the old Indian fish traps in
LEWIS
PW: there in that rocky place. Right there at the old
Boone Ferry place.
8
L: I don 't remember that. I wasn't down there that much.
By that time .•• during that time
that far. I was up here fur ther.
I hadn't drifted down
PW : I'm sure he was just a kid •• • a boy ••• out there with
his grandpaw .
L: Well, I'm a little bit older than Dub ••• not much.
CS : It would be good to say where Boone's Ferry is, as best
you can.
PW: I can t ell you where everything else is in relation to
Boone Ferry , but I can't tell you where Boone Ferry is.
L: Well, I can give you the history of Boone Ferry , pretty
we l l , where it is.
CS: Can you tell us where it is?
L: Yes , ma ' am. The first thing we got up on that river up
there , before Boone Ferry , was ••• it was a loading dock
that went to Beaumont from here. Old Unlce Tom Seaman,
Wilmer's great uncle, owned that dock and l oad it out there.
And when that river would be up in the wintertime, they'd
send those boats up here and get the stuff. It ' s a
warehouse there. It ' s about a mile and a hal f from Seaman's
Bluff to Boone Ferry , right on the banks of the river .
CS : Well, where i s that in relation to Rockland?
L: Oh , it' s .••
PW: ' Way up there.
CS : I s it up river?
LEWIS 9
L: Yes , ma ' am.
/
IW: Is it between Fort Teran and Rockland? Or i s it
upriver f rom Fort Ter{n?
PW: Down the river just a little .
L: Just down the river a little.
CS : About a quarter of a mile?
L: ' Bout something on that orde r .
CS: A quarter of a mile south or downr iver from Fort
/
Teran?
L: East. We'd say east.
CS: OK.
? The river's running east and west there.
IW: We've a lso heard that there are salt l i cks in Fort
Teran area . Do you know the location of those?
L: Yes. I t ' s right above Seaman's Bluff . In sight of
Seaman ' s Bluff .
CS : So t hat 's st i l l down-stream from For t Teran?
L: That ' s upstream.
CS : From Fort Teran?
L: Yes•m. Seaman's Bluff is up the r iver .
CS : OK .
L: And they made their salt there ••• some of the holes
are still there . You can tell where t hey got the water and
boiled i t out and got the salt left, you know in t he
containers that they boiled it in. Some of those holes are
still there , you can tell.
IW: Is that on •• • whose property would that be on?
L : Some of the Morgan hei rs. Now I'm not gonna tell you
LEWIS 10
L: which one it is but I believe their name is Bracewell.
One of the Bracewell heirs . Which was an heir from old man
Harry and Jack Morgan.
CS : Mrs. Seamans is saying they're Indian mounds in that
area?
IW: Is that right?
L: Is that ....?
WL: I'm saying there are mounds of sand •••
IW: There's supposed to be lead deposits somewhere in that
area, too.
L: Yes, ma'am. And I can't tell you r i ght where it is.
It's below the Salt we call it Salt Saline. It's below
the Salt Saline and it's not as far down as Boone Ferry •••
no.
SC : What about Fort Teran?
L: Well, Fort Teran and Boone Ferry are pretty close
t ogether . It set above there.
IW: Still upstream?
L: Upstream f~om that •.• yes, ma'am. And I've never
been in that mine. There was a mine there, you know. And
Pat can tell you more about that than anybody. She ••• her
and Bishop Warren worked that thing one time.
WS: There ' s one at Fort Teran, isn't there?
L: That ' s where ol d Collin Cave •••
L: Yeah. That's not at Fort Teran, though . It's not a
lead mine. It was ... it was dug there as a •••
WL: Fuller's earth.
LEWIS ll
L: Fulle~'s ea~th.
CS: So that's the Fuller's earth •••
WL: I knew there was a cave the~e but ••• I never knew
why.
L: Yes, ma'am. But I was gone and married when that thing
was dug.
CS: Well, what about the lead? Do you have any idea when
the lead mine was • • • ?
L: No , rna' am.
CS: And the salt? I understand went 'way back to the
Indian time.
L: Oh, yes, ma'am. That's how come it was found there,
you know. The Indians already were opeuating there before
the native people got in there.
IW: Is the lead enough to be of commercial value?
L: Back there then they'd use it to make your own shot.
IW: Used it just fou their own purposes?
L: Yes, ma'am. It wasn't shipped from here that I have
any idea at all. I don ' t think it was.
IW: Tell us a little bit about the Indian histo~y of
Peachtree Village.
L: All right. This is handed down now, you know.
IW: That's fine.
L: My grandfather come to Texas in 1879 ••• and Old Man
John Tom Kirby owned that Peachtree Village. Not like it is
now. But he owned a right smart of it. And my grandfather
~ented land from Old Man John Tom Kirby and he farmed on the
LEWIS 12
L: old Indian reservation there •.. it was there before
they got there, you know ••• and they ••• I've heard my
uncle tell about plowing on this flatland hill , and it
washed off, you know. And they'd plow up some of the
fragments of their bones , you know ••• skulls and things
like that ••• and ••• but those Indians, that was a very
noted place for them. They had live water there ••• spring
water . . . and that's what they had to call that in stream,
you know.
IW: Where is the spring? Is it gone?
L: Yes, ma'am. It's ••• those springs, they went and come,
you know, in my time , 'til I couldn't even tell you because
But I can go show you about where the hills were. And a
colored cemetery there close to it. I'm very well
acquainted with the colored cemetery .
IW: Can you t ell us a little bit about the Billums Creek
area?
L: No, ma'am. I can't tell you too much about that.
That's a little bit too far down the hill.
Up the hill, I believe we call it.
IW: I believe you have a story about the Cobble House?
L: Yes, ma'am. That's ••• I can give you a little about
that. The Cobbles was there when the Kirbys went there,
f rom all accounts. In my thinking, you know, the Cobbles
were already there.
IW: Now where is the Cobble House located?
L: It's ••• I went out ••• that's where we went. I went
LEWIS
L: out ••• that's where you and I went- how do you
describe where it is from Peachtree Village?
13
The old Peachtree Village is up there where they're
restoring it now, you know. And it's by the ••• half a •••
oh, three quauteus of a mile from there to the Cobble
House.
IW: I see .
L: And the Cobble House was a ••• was a very, very
prominent house at that time. It was a log house, split
logs, and then after John Henry Kirby got it, he sealed, in
and out, that house over those l ogs. And it was 'might near
seal proof, you know, from hearing anything. It was a big
house, and then you'd put big side room on it , kitchen,
dining room and all, and I tell you it was a huge house.
One of the biggest houses on the Peachtree Village Farm.
WS: Where was it? That's not the Old Barton place?
L : That's the old Barton place. That's where the cemetery
was .
CS: Yes. That's the thing .•. if you could draw a little
map of where it is so we could keep it in our folder, it
would be good , where Peter Cobble's house is as best you can
draw it. Later •• •
L: We'll do that later.
IW: What about these graveyards that you mentioned, by
Peter Cobble's?
L: Cobble's house?
IW : Uh huh.
LEWIS 14
L: Well, i t is was just a short ways from the house . I 'm
gonna say 400 yards from the house ••• they had a cemetery
there. Now I have a firs t cousin buried there.
When my f olks lived there • •• Grandpaw Lewis and them
lived around Peachtree Village, there was one of the girls
• •• o ne of my dad ' s sisters married a Poindexte r ••• and she
went home when this baby was born, and it died, and they
buried it there.
IW: So it's a community cemetery and not a family
cemetery?
L: Yeah. It was started out as a f amily cemetery , but
this was after John Henry Kirby got it and they used it, you
know. But it started out as a Cobble cemetery . I don ' t •••
IW: There are Cobbles bur i ed the r e?
L: Pretty well all of them was buried there , the Cobbles ,
and I don't believe I can name another tomb except after
Kirby got it.
WL : I didn ' t see no tomb there.
L : Oh , yes, there ' s several .
IW: What do you know about the Cherokee area? Do you know
very much about Indian history?
L: No , ma ' am .
IW : Have you ever heard of Chief Bowles that was a Cherokee
Indian?
L: No, m' aam .
IW : Do you know anything about Chief Billums?
L: No, ma'am. I neverr did have much connection with the
LEWIS 15
L: Indians, in my early days. They was already settled
over here where they are now, you know.
IW: On the reservation?
L: Yes, ma'am. On the reservation there. Now we had an
Indian that was crippled. No ••• wasn't real bad crippled,
but he had a stroke or something when he was real young and
walked one sided and one arm was lame and he couldn ' t handle
as well as the other . He come into Chester, during 'way
this was in the depression time ••• ' way back ••• early
depression, too ••• come into Chester, didn't have anything
to do . My •.• him and my dad ••• my dad had more t o do with
the Indians back there then than I ever thought about. And
he learnt my dad real well. And Poppa hired him to pick
cotton. He hired him that year. We had him hired as long
as my dad lived. When cotton time come, he come back.
IW: Was he an Alabama?
L: He as an Alabama Indian.
IW: Well, he didn't tell you tales of his family?
L: Not too much ••• not too much . He didn ' t talk too
much. Now him and Poppa'd get together and set down out
there and they'd chat around. He didn't with me.
IW: Your dad didn 't hand down some of the information?
L: No , ma'am, he didn't. He and Poppa was real close and
they'd talk about things from the Peachtree Village, back
there then. But I don't remember none of that. Even who
started it. I don't remember nothing. It wasn ' t interesting
to me then , you know.
LEWIS 16
IW: Your great grandmother was an Indian?
L: My great grandmother was a ••• my grandmother was a
half ••• great grandmother was an Indian woman from
Mississippi.
IW: You know that's where the Alabama tribe came from. Do
you know what tribe of Indians?
L: No, ma'am, I don't, but Granny Luz, my dad's mother,
was a half Indian and half ..• (garbled).
IW: Did we interrupt you before you got through telling us
about Peachtree Village? Was there anything else you wanted
to tell us about?
L: Well, no, ma'am, I don't guess. There's lots about
Peachtree Village that I've growed up with , you know, and we
used to ••• John Henry Kirby had already , after I got big
enough to remember, he had already owned most of it, but he
got some of it after I could remember, but there was lots of
things went on at Peachtree Village, you know. It was a big
thing for us.
WL: Tell her about the barbecues.
L: That was in 1929, along in there, ' 27 , '28, '29, '30
on up to '35, you know. And they'd have those barbecues
certain t ime of year ••• around the 4th of July. And in 19
and 29, we had one of those barbecues. We'd a lways have a
dance. Well, that year and a year or two before and a year
or two after that, he built a platform out there. Oh, it
was a big outfit. It was big enough to put any kind of
house on. And they just put a floor, and then on that ••• a
LEWIS 17
L: rail around it, where you could set down. We danced
there all night, you know.
Got a band out of Houston. Might near always had them.
And that was a big thing for Chester, you know, to have that
band. And it was a nice band too. It wasn't a cheap one,
that we considered it was. And we'd dance all night long.
Daylight run us home to get breakfast.
And, tell you another thing that happened on that dance
floor one time. We danced all night long, and Sunday
morning ••• that was Saturday night ••• Sunday morning, I
was working on the gulf pipeline, me and a boy by the name
of Watts ••• kin of Steve's ••• we ••• he was staying at the
house with me. We left there, got to the house, ate
breakfast, and went to that job on the river. And a fellow
by the name of Gus ••• can't think of his name now ••• have
to ask old Lewis ••. Hanks, what his name was, married into
some of the family or something. Blankenship or something
like that was his name. Like to cut my foot off that Sunday
morning. And I like to bled to death that day.
IW: What happened?
L: We was pulling a log out of the water for the right of
way t o go down, out that slue. They called it Lick Slue.
And that slipped off of there and hit my foot. Like to cut
that foot off. And that's the biggest thing I remember
about it.
IW: What kind of medical facilities did you have? What
kind of doctor, or ••• who took care of it?
LEWIS 18
L: Well , they had a •..
WL: Tell us about the whole thing.
L: I come in. It like to cut my foot of f about 9:00
o 'clock. I hadn't slept none in two night •• • that was t he
second night we had that dance , you know. Well, that foot
didn't hurt half as bad as I was wanting to sleep . I was
holding down the bottom of my leg. And we got in there •••
I knew the book-keeper real well ••• his name was Morehead.
MoEehead said, "You'd better lay down here and put your foot
up to keep it from bleeding." I was bleeding like a stuck
hog. I was , all Eight. The time I hit that cot, well , that
foot wasn't bothering me. He woke me up at 12:00 o 'clock .
He says, "You want some dinner? " I says, " Yeah. Let ' s
eat." I got up. He says , "Keep that foot up . You are
bleeding like everything. " He wrapped another big, heavy
••• had it wrapped up in a towel •.• wrapped another big
towel aEound it, and brought me some dinner.
We had a chow hall, you know. And I laid back down and
by the time I laid back down again, I was asleep . About
3:30 ••• they had a doctor in town by the name of Cherry,
was supposed to go in there that morning ••• well, they was
waiting for him. That was a company doctor ••• Gulf Company
doctor. Well, he didn't get there. And about 3:30, they
decided they better carry me into Chester to the doctor.
Loaded me in that little old car he had ••• had a little old
Chevrolet, about a '28 Chevrolet, something like that,
roadster type caE, or maybe coupe type and got to Chester .
LEWIS 19
L: I noticed when I'd sit up, I'd get kinda wiggly , you
know ••. wasn't quite all there .•• well , I never thought
about bleeding that much. They put me in that thing and
when I got to Chester, that blood had been shaking and the
warmth of that car had me kinda goofey. So I got out, and
to go in the drug stoEe for Dr. Cade to look at it. And
everywheEe I stepped , it just made a puddle of blood, you
know. Went in the drug store there in Chester. And got to
the other end and I never had fainted in my life. I'd been
hurt lots of times but never had fainted. Doctor came in
and unwrapped that thing, and it stuck up 'bout like a goose
egg. He mashed that clot of blood out of there, and I went
I went out. Well , when I come to, they was fanning me
and putting something under, around me nose so I could
breathe better , you know. Well, I like to bled to death.
IW: What ••• did they stitch it up?
L: Sewed it up . Yes , ma'am. I ••• I guess I was home two
weeks or three, I think it was.
IW: What other kind of entertainment did you have besides
your long Saturday night dances?
L: Oh, we ••• we had them in the community here, we had a
party ••• Josie part ies , and dances. And we ' d go to
Corrigan and Woodville too, to the skating rinks, you know,
and things like that.
IW: Skating rinks? Ice skating?
L: No. Roller skating.
IW: Really?
LEWIS 20
L: Yeah. Fight all night and ••• Lots of that went on
? We'd have a dance lots of times. Remember old Moon
Mullins?
IW: I've heard the name.
L: That piano player.
IW: Uh huh.
L: He started in Corrigan at the skating rink, playing for
the dances. There was Moon Mullins and Mile Commanders, the
old ••• what's his name, Wilma? Married in the family •••
married the Platt girl. Joe Manner. They had a nice little
band. They could play, too. That Moon Mullins was just
natural with him. I don't even think he knew music a bit
more than I did, and I don't know one note from the other.
He could hear you play it ••. sit right down and just pick
it out.
IW: I'd like to know a little bit more about the cattle
industry. You drove your cattle to Nacogdoches sometimes,
did I hear you say?
L: No, Ma'am, that man that bought Buck's cattle was gonna
carry 'em to Nacogdoches.
IW: Oh. Back in history a little bit, do you know kinda
where they would drive their cattle to market?
L: Well, they didn't drive them to market. We drove them
to a railroad track and loaded them there and shipped them
out. Now there was a man here by the name of Whitehead,
come in here ••• Shepherd Whitehead and John Whitehead.
Shepherd was the biggest ••• moved (interruption) some of
LEWIS 21
L: them to Woodville, shipped them from Woodville and
Colemesneil on the same railroad. The others went to
Livingston, went back the other way ••• went t o Armstrong .
Then my grandfather kinda patrolled that cattle drive that
went this way, three or four times Bic Wallace. And I went
with him on two of those drives. 'Course I was pretty small
••• really too small to take that kind of a journey. I went
with him. I was the oldest grandson, his, you know, and I
believed in that.
IW: How old were you?
L: Oh, about .•• about 18 or 19.
IW: And this was driving them to where?
L: Livingston.
IW: To Livingston?
L: Herded up here and kept right ever here at Mt . Hope.
You know where the church was, over there.
IW: Yes.
L: They were kept right in there. In that vicinity, I
mean.
IW: What sort of a food did you eat?
L: We had a wagon with us.
IW: What kind of food?
L: Oh, beans and stuff like that. Didn't have no meat.
Fresh meat. Because didn't have no way of preserving it,
you know, keepin' it. And we eat beans
IW: Did you have biscuits?
L: Oh, yeah. Had 'em every morning. Had an old colored
LEWIS 22
L: boy cooked , that cooked them biscuits in that old pan,
you know. It was a dutch oven, we called it. Set it down
on those coals, and then they had a lid on it. You could
pile those coals on top of it, b~own 'em on top. Set and
eat. Didn't get but two meals a day. That's when you
started and when you stopped. When you started dr iving
cattle, if they didn 't get hot, you didn't get nothing else
to eat. Went in by the Indian village, right, well, one of
them might near by, the Indian village.
IW: You mean the Sam Houston Reservation?
L: That reservation. It wasn't fenced up then like it is
now. We'd go in through there. And we penned them the
other side of Livingston. I can't even tell you the name of
the place up there the other side of Livingston wher e we
penned them. We l oaded them out there and they went to
Hondo.
IW: Did you have a favorite horse?
L: Not then. We rode anything that c ome by.
IW: About what size was it?
L: Oh , they were all .•• The horses that we rode most of
them here were smaller horses than we have now.
IW: Like fourteen hands?
L: Oh , no ma'am. 800, 1000 pound horses about ••• I t was
just very seldom they got over 1000 pounds for us to ride.
IW : I said fourteen hands.
L: Oh. Hands. Excuse me.
IW : About how tall were they?
LEWIS 23
L: Well, most o f them were around 12, 14 hands . Yeah,
that's about right.
IW:
L:
IW:
L:
Did you ride mules to work with the cattle?
I did, later years, but I didn't back there then.
Did you have a single footing mule?
No, ma'am. I had a fox trotting mule.
IW: A fox trotting mule? Was it from Missouri? Or was it
raised here?
L: No 'm. It was raised here. I rode one six years here
oncet. That ' s when we used to tend our own stock, you know,
me and Daddy Seamans. I rode her six years.
IW: What was her name?
L: Kate. Boy, she pitched me off a many a time.
IW: How did the depression affect you?
L: Oooh, bad!
IW: Bad!
L: That's the best answer. We •.. it didn't affect us all
too awful bad. There just wasn't no money. Just wasn't
no work. And you done what you could find to do, if you was
huntin' work , you know, to make a dollar. But there just
wasn't very much money in circulation. And if you got a
dollar a day , you were getting good wages. And you didn't
get that long. There'd be somebody wantin' to beat that
price and get you started at something else. That
depression stayed on a long time .
I married during the depression . Married in ' 34. And
it was depression time , too. I was working up here at
Chester on a house, helping, workin' with a contractor, a
LEWIS 24
L: carpenter. And I was gettin' two bits an hour. Worked
nine hours a day. And I was just glad to get that. That
was pretty good money too. You bet. You betcha it is.
Wasn't nothing slouchey about it atall. And I done that
depression, straight on in for seven years after I married,
and
But before I married, I worked several different jobs
that paid a little better than that. In '28 I helped build
a school building ••• added to a school building in Chester.
Put the wings on the old two-story building, is what we
done. And I got 40~ an hour there. Boy, that was "biiiig"
money. I was just getting to •.• I signed up to do ••• that
I could do anything but carpenter work. Now you didn't
drive a nail becaus e the union had done started then for the
carpenters. And I could read part of it ..• run the cement
mixer and mix the c ement, and stuff like that. And that was
a awful good job. And .•• but they got through with that
one.
In '37, that was after I married, the same man ••• his
name was Philip Mye rs , construction in Beaumont. Phil Myers
come up here and built one in '37. And I got a good job
t here. I had already worked for him oncet. That's when
the differe nce ••• only different word I ever had with
my daddy-in-law was right there. "Corne in here" - the union
man told me, "If you want to join this union, you can get
40~ an hour more." I said, "Give me a little time to think
about it." And I come horne, talked t o her daddy. He says,
"That' s a lot of money. That's what we used to get for a
LEWIS 25
L: day's work." I says, "Yeah, but I ••• that union
business don't set too well with me." But we talked on
about it. He said, "I think you ought to take it." Said,
"You got a wife and two kids." But anyway I didn't take it,
and I worked out there for Tim and finished that job.
That's the only job I ever had that lasted long enough for
me to get a vacation. I worked eleven and a half months,
and he paid me for twelve. That's the only vacation we ever
had.
PW: Harold , this might be interesting to them. Did you
have cattle when Roosevelt was paying $10.00 a head?
L: Yes, sir, I sure did.
WL: When they killed them?
L: Yeah. You betcha.
CS: Oh, you mean f or Bangs or some disease ?
L: No . They just killed them because there were too many
cattle.
CS: I never hear d about that.
L: You haven't? It happened. I can take you back in
those hills and show you where we shot them. You could walk
on cattle for three or four acres.
CS: Really?
L: Yessir. You betcha. We ••• I don't know ••• That was
after I was married too, you know.
PW: Wasn't it $10.00 a head?
L: $10.00 a head, if you killed them. According to the
age, or something, I done forgot e xactly there. According
to a ge or s ome thing they ••• if you shipped them. Carried
LEWIS 26
L: them to the railroad track and shipped them. I forgot
there, what that was. But I helped drive those cattle .••
CS: You mean they shipped them from our •.•
L: They shipped them from here to somewhere else.
PW: Reducing the population of the cattle.
L: That's what they was trying to do.
CS: But you were killing them here?
L: Yeah. Killed them here. Now if there was an old cow,
or something •• a little defect someway they just shot
them. Had an old boy with an automatic .22 ••• the first
automatic .22 I ever saw in my life. Boy, he could just
that cow was standing any direction ••. front, sideways, or
facing ••• he'd just "pow" and - hit the ground. They never
did have to shoot one twice, I don 't think. I never will
forget that. Tell you something else I seen them do. I'll
tell you he'd take that 12 inch bore, and he just started
here at the neck of that Indian, and he would draw that
Indian's face on around the bonnet and all back t here and
backed up with that .22. Just about that far apart. pow
••• pow ••• pow. Like you'd taken a pencil.
PW: I missed out on that.
PW: Well , what was the law governing dipping back ••• come
right after this cattle buy. They dipped for
L: Fever ticks.
PW: Yeah.
L: Best thing we ever done or had done in our lives. And
the next best thing we ever had done controlling the screw
LEWIS 27
L: worm. And we dipped them ••. boy, that was something
we dipped them every 14 days. And there wasn't no
pasture between here and that riven, you know. That ' s what
••• that's what started the pasture business. Started
fencing. Started fencing a place to put those cattle in.
Take 4 or 5 days to put in this trap, and then we'd dip them
out of there. I got a place over here fenced up that I
fenced up then and still got it.
PW: It was near y'all's main dipping vat?
L: Yeah. Our dipping vat.
PW: Well, y'all used to dip down there close to Rockland
too ••• somebody bring them over there.
L: Yeah. And set ••• uh ••• Smart Hill, you know. That's
Crews had some of 'em that went there, you know. The
cows we had down around Crews's, we dipped them down t here .
When Crews had ' em over here around Smart Hill, they dipped
there , you know. We all kinda worked together. We had to
work together.
PW: Had to.
L: You had to work together. But we dipped t hose cattle
and then I had ••• my mother had a little bunch of cattle.
That's a fter my daddy died .•. daddy died in '45 ••• uh, ' 35
' 35 ••• in '35, and I went to Chester every 2 weeks to
get cattle the re , from here.
PW: Well, during dipping season there, if you had cattle
and scattered like they were, you were busy all the time .
L: You went night and day.
LEWIS 28
PW: One vat to the other. Whereve~ your cattle happened to
be.
L: And another thing, too. That was the roughest time on
the horses that we ever had in this count~y.
IW: What did you dip them ••• what was the chemical that
they were dipped in?
L: Arsenic. Arsenic chemical and there was lead in it
then. I don't know why they used that lead. I don't think
it had any killing power at all, but they used it.
PW: Might have been a carrier.
L: Might have been something like that, but, boy, we'd
clean those vats out •.• that calf would come along, lick
that salt base in that
PW: Shame on ' em.
L: Boy, it killed them by the bunches.
CS: What ' s this?
L: Well •.. that bay •.• that arsenic that they put in the
dip , you know, that they put in that vat to kill those
ticks. And ever so often they'd clean those vats out, you
know. And dip them sk immings out of the bottom of it
that sluff out of the bottom ••• throw it over at that vat.
Them old cattle would come a long ••• not used to salt, you
know. Cow's supposed to use 25 pounds of salt a year. And
maybe she wouldn't get 25 pounds in 5 years of her life, you
know. She'd come one and lick that salt base here. Boy,
it'd kill 'em. One time we penned up a bunch of cattle •••
gonna dip 'em Monday morning ••• pen them up when we got
LEWIS 29
L: th~ough with them Sata~day evenin'. Monday mo~ning was
dipping day over he~e. Old Ta~water ••• not Tarwater
Mayo~ Cochran was our dip man. You remember him?
PW: No, I don't remember him.
L: You don ' t?
PW: I don't believe.
L: He was dip man here a long time.
PW: What was his last name ••. Cochran?
L: Cochran .•• from Nacogdoches.
PW: I guess I ought to know him.
L: Yes. He was a wonderful, wonderful person. Anyway, we
was gonna dip on Monday mornin'. Always brought those
cattle daylight, you know. We turned 'em up and started out
after them cows and there was a dead cow •• another dead
cow. We had seven at one time ••• yearlings and cows. What
in the world i s the matter? Didn ' t nobody have no idea what
it was.
And we sent to Nacogdoches , out to Lufkin, got a
veterinarian in by the name of Davenport. I don't know
whether you r emember him or not. And that's what it was.
That's when we found out what was killing ' em all the time.
We hadn't never thought about it.
IW: Did you ever have problems with wild animals killing
the cattle?
L: Not too much in the cattle business. We did in the
goats •••
IW: Did you ever have any bears ••• or know about any bears
that we r e up here ?
LEWIS 30
L: That all happened before my time. We had lots of
t~ouble with the wolves, though. Timbe~ wolves, now , not
the kind like we have now. In the sheep and goats. Boy,
they'd kill them things ••• cover them fields.
IW: We had sheep in this country at one time?
L: Yes, ma'am.
IW: We don ' t have many sheep around any more, do we?
L: No, ma'am. Haven ' t got that open range either.
IW: That probably makes a big difference.
WL: We got too many dogs ••• and bulls.
L: Yeah, dogs were bad then, you know, back there then.
CS: Any wild hogs?
L: No, ma'am. They wasn't wild. My dogs would go
Well, let me tell you one of the sheep stories . Mr . Tom
Hardy lived there where we lived, where Sim Byer lives now.
Old Man Tom ••• we bought that place • •• my daddy did ••
from Old Man Tom Ha~dy. He had a dog and he was a good ' un .
And Mr ••• there ' s something about killing Amos Swatze's
sheep which was r ight across the hill there now. Across the
branch. And Amos put them sheep in a pen that dog couldn ' t
get in. And that night , that dog come from Chester , now,
out here, and killed those sheep, and he shot him. Got in
that pen someway.
PW: Shot him in the pen?
L: In the pen is where. It was Tom Hardy ' s dog. That's
how far they'd go . You'd go by the next morning, h e 'd be
home, you know. They just get a sport out of it, just like
LEWIS 31
L: a man dee~ hunting.
PW: I want to interrupt and tell something he~e. Speck
Risinger's name has been mentioned seve~al times in this
series. But he told me one time that if it wasn't for
wolves and dogs that he could have made more money out of
sheep, right there on his place, than he would ever have
made out of cattle.
L: Yes, sir. And woods hogs, to me, al!e ... I made twice
as much out of woods hogs than I did cows.
PW: He did too.
L: You remember when we made those sausage here? We got
it for a livelihood then.
WS: We had started Harold and I and Daddy •••
L: And we ' d have 5 or 600 sausage in the smokehouse out
there. Lots of times •• . at one time ••• that's lots of
sausage now. But thel!e'd just be rows of them, you know.
We'd kill ' em every day.
CS : By the way, before I forget it, even if it goes on the
tape, there 's gonna be a special on Peachtree Village this
afternoon at 5:00 o'clock on Channel 6, on "Feedback." So,
don't fol!get.
L: 5:00 o 'clock?
CS: 5:00 o ' clock, Channe 1 6.
IW: Did you all always have a garden? Did you raise ... do
you still l!aise a lot of your own food?
L: Most of it. Until last year I had a garden all, eve!!
since I married. Until last year. I wasn't able last year.
LEWIS 32
WL: We furnished the whole community.
L: We always had a big garden.
CS: Turnip greens, I know.
L: Oh, yeah. We had ••• had them today ••• but I didn't
raise 'em .
CS: Oh, you didn't?
L: No, I didn't. But I •••
WL: You're cheating.
L: I stole a little bit. I got a good neighbor up at
Chester. Uum ••• that's the finest ones I ever saw. Well,
we've always lived at home.
END OF TAPE I, SIDE l, 45 MINUTES.
SIDE 2
WL: I wanted to tell. We started out living at home.
Never ••• we never bought anything after we married. We
bought one 5 gallon can of lard when we first married . And
then we bought sugar and flour and ••• didn't buy coffee •••
didn't use coffee. Salt and baking powder. That 's all we
bought.
L: Best eatin' in the world, too.
WL: We had eggs, we had chickens, we had venison ••• I
mean, goat ••• we had sheep , we had cows, we bought all of
our
L: We used to can those beef , you know. And sheep.
CS: oh, really?
L: You betcha.
WL: We had ham and sausage, bacon, 365 days a year. If we
LEWIS 33
WL: didn't have it in the smokehouse, we learned to slice
it down and put it ••• pour the grease over it and keep it.
PW: That's whe~e we kept our sausage.
L: Our bacon too, Canned, you know.
WL: We'd do ou~ ham that way. And we'd do our bacon •.•
all of it ••• and we always had plenty of grease, plenty of
meat, the year 'round.
You can't
L: I don't •••
I says ••• it's not like it is now.
WL: Somebody come in fo~ dinner, and I didn ' t have nothing
to eat, I'd run out to the smokehouse and get a half of ham,
or something, come in and slice it and make a pan of
biscuits, and have some dinner. But now days you can't do
that.
PW: No mo'.
L: I tell you something else that we done. Me and Wilma
been married 53 years, last month. And I don't imagine
I'm gonna say safely ••• that we never bought 20 pounds of
beef across the counter ••• in ou~ 53 years. And things of
that nature. We didn't we'd grow ' em.
IW:
L:
IW:
You mean you're still raising it?
Still raising it.
And butchering your own ••• ?
L: No, I don't butcher it. Carry it to the slaughter
house and have it processed over there. This year ••• let's
see ••• I butchered about six calves this year. Of course,
I don ' t use six calves ••• don 't get me down that I use six
LEWIS 34
L: calves ••• I got a neighbor down here I give one to
every year. And our preacher over here, I give him a half
of calf every year. Things like that , you know. We raise
'ern and we got ' ern , and we share it with everybody. We
enjoy that part now. Back there then, we didn't do that,
because we had to have every dime that was in it , you know.
But we got lots of •••
WL: Nearly everybody had cows. Everybody milked; had a
milk calf, you know. They'd just •.• they could do t heir
own.
L: Well, lots of times we ' d process that meat in cans.
We'd do that. Just ••• four, five families would get
together. We'd kill two today, and tonight we'd kill two
more, the next day we'd kill another one and then hang 'ern
up. Killed them late in the evenin', the next morning, we'd
go to cutting that bugger up, and frying him, you know,
processing, putting ' ern down in cans. Boy, that was good
eatin', too.
CS: I never have had •••
PW: A can of that beef?
L: Yeah.
PW: Cook the cans in an old wash pot and boil it?
L: Yeah.
PW: You bet.
L: That was pressure cooked.
IW : Well , did you can a lot of your garden produce and •••
L: Jars and cans.
LEWIS 36
L: him. And six bits in money. That's all the money he
had, too.
IW: What was his name, again?
L: Dr. L.R. Cade.
IW: Where was he from?
L: Uummm. Better not tie it down to that. But he wasn't
too far from here, because he's got a nephew that comes to
Woodville every once in a while. And he come to Chester and
went to practicing medicine. Of course, there wasn't
nothin' to practice ••• I'm a better veterinarian than he
was a doctor then, 'cause I messed with cattle all my life,
you know. But anyway, he made the money. He borned me and
Wilma both.
WL: And our kids ••• our two oldest too.
L: Yeah. And he was an old doctor. He had land. He was
a millionaire when he died, too.
IW: How did he get so rich?
L: He worked. If you called him at midnight. We had an
old country telephone that rang ••• it rung everybody when
it rung ••• You called him at Chester out here ••• if it was
12 o'clock at night, he'd saddle that old horse, struck a
gallop and he was here at one o'clock. And he was ••• he
charged, you know, so much. Just like Wilma said, come out
here to birth one of the babies, you know, he didn't have
but $25.00. That's been $25.00 ever since there's been a
world. I guess. And anyway, he didn't have it. He had
some cows in a year or two, and leave an old cow there, and
LEWIS 37
L: she'd • •• ain't no telling how many cows and all those
heads of cattle he had. He was a good man.
PW: Had a woods full of hogs.
L: Woods full of hogs ••• and land.
WL: He was the laziest old man you ever seen in your life.
He never could lace up his shoes
L: That was after he got old.
WL : Oh. Wasn't after he got old. I been ••• I knew him
before he got that old. Anyway ••• (NOISE ON TAPE)
L: He got the job done. Was one of the best pneumonia
doctors ever was in this country.
WL: But he didn't care. Didn't have a bi t of pride.
L: Tell you something else about him. This was his
sister-in-law before she ever married into that Barnes
family. Remember Jay Taylor? You've heard of him ••• Jay
Taylor in Houston, one of the biggest doctors ••• M.J. and
Jay Taylor was the biggest doctors in Houston at that time.
Best surgeons, anyway in Houston.
And he met one of those Barnes girls ••• got sick over
here ••• and they come in and they got ••• the Taylors
they was at Cameron then •.. that was 'fore they went to
Houston. But they went on to Houston and made ••• very
successful in the medical bus iness there.
And it got come out here and said, "Well, she got
appendicitis." Cade was one them •.• he wouldn't use a
knife on a person a 'tall anything but a knife ••• it
would work better than that. Well, anyway, he got them over
there and they said, "You got appendicitis~ we'll have to
LEWIS 38
L: operate on you ." Operated on her at home. Over here
on Brushy Creek. And got through , said "See here these
appendix were just ready to burst." That's what one of the
Taylors said. When we cleared out of the room, lookin' at
'em, you know, turned around to Dr. Cade and said, "You can
tell he's a squirrel turners as anything."
WL: He didn't believe in surgery?
L: No.
WL: He like to let me die.
L: Yeah. But Wilma's the first person he ever ••• give up
and let be operated on.
CS: Oh, really?
L: Yeah.
WL: Who was that car went by?
L: I do. That's your brother.
WL: Nelson?
L: He was a good doctor. He was a pneumonia doctor.
There's many a person that died in this country, if he'd a
got to 'em a little earlier, he could have handled that
pneumonia. I don't know his secret, 'cause ••• he save many
a person. Pneumonia was something you didn't handle unless
(GARBLED)
IW: Did you all . . . when you were a child, did you all go
to the doctor or did your mother, grandparents do the
doctoring?
L: We used the doctor a lot. We was right there by it,
you know.
LEWIS 39
IW: Close in?
L: Close in. We had another REAL personal friend, Dr.
Grimes ••. Jerry's daddy. They lived out here. He was a
good doctor.
PW: Iverson?
L: Iverson Grimes. And we used the doctor; we really
did.
WL: My momma and daddy was doctors.
L: But, uh •••
CS: Oh, really?
L: You know what my wife calls me now, don't you? I might
be talking about s ome of y ' a ll's religion source, but she
calls me apostolic man because I don ' t take medicine.
WL: He never did go to a doctor
L: I never did ••• I never did
WL : You didn't take the medicine when you 'd go to the
doctor?
L: I never was sick. Wasn't no use taking medicine if you
wasn't sick.
PW: If it ain't broke , don't fix it, huh?
L: You betcha.
CS: I can't think of any specific things. We could come
back and stay three or four more hours, with this other
general stuff.
IW: Can you think of any o ther interesting things that you
might tell us that we haven't thought to ask you about?
L: No, ma ' am . Only thing I know of that we didn't compete
LEWIS 40
L: on was the cow business. And ?
But what I meant was, I had a pretty good bunch of
cattle 'til last year. And as I said, they was running from
the highway from '59 to '69. And we enjoyed 'em a lot.
Enjoyed ••• ?
When the wife would get a little rough here for me, I
could just saddle up my horse and call my dogs and I'd just
go somewhere, you know.
IW: Good way to get away from it all.
L: That's right.
PW: What did you ear mark? What was your ear mark?
L: Swallow point in one ear and split the other one. Made
the swallow point, standing over them like that, and the
other one here.
L: And that mark come from Mississippi.
PW: Did it?
L: Yeah . When Grandpaw Lewis come from Mississippi.
PW: swallow point in one ear and a split in the other?
L: Yeah.
WL: Did it make any difference which ear?
L: I used both ears on that thing, 'cause I ••• when I had
to put it on record ••• had to put it on record ••• I put
one side of it in Wilma's name, the other side of it was
mine. Always used that HL as a brand.
PW: Well, what about your hog marks. Same thing?
L: Same thing. Mine was. Now I bought out numbers of
them, older fellow's .•• and I used that mark some until
LEWIS 41
L: kinda weed it out, you know. When I bought Mr. Claude
Powell out and Mr. Clint Powell out ••• out o f the hog
business, you know •• the Wallace boys ••• when they went
public work ••• I neve~ did public wo~k. I stayed at home
the rest of them all went to ••.
CS: You mean the WPA.
L: No. I'm talking about . . . No.
WL: He didn't want a boss.
PW: He wanted to be boss?
L: No, I'm talking about during the war times,
they went to the shipya~ds
CS: Oh. Oh. I see.
you know,
L: And I worked out here at this here pump station.
What little public work, I done in the pump station.
IW: Were you ever in the armed forces?
L: No. No., ma'am.
WL: You got a card.
L: I had got a card. The thing kept me out of the
service. And I didn't do this intentionally ••• wasn't
trying to stay out of service. Now I'm not braggin' on
myself. But I •• the first deferment I got was farming.
Well, I'd farmed all my life. Never had done nothing else.
And I got a deferment on it. And when it come around to
going to be examined, they turned me down on account of age.
Well, I had two or three farms and had three children •••
two children.
LEWIS 42
IW: I want to thank you for taking the time to tell us your
stories. I'm sure you have many others we'd like to hear.
END OF SIDE 2, 15 MINUTES.