FOLKLIFE FESTIVAL
ROOF THATCHING
INTERVIEW WITH: JUAN E. MARTINEZ
DATE: August 8, 1982
PLACE: Oral History office, ITC
I NTERVIEWER : Esther MacMi llan
M: Mr. Martinez is a rancher from Laredo. He has a company
called the Martinez Cattle Company. They buy and sell cattle,
"dozer work , root plOW, disking ,brush stacking,grader works. "
But what I want to talk about tod~ris roof thatching. It's a
subject people don't know very much about. Mr. Martinez, when
I was watching you work up here a mi nute ago, you had frames,
rather small, wood. You built your frame for demonstration
purposes of rather small sticks going across and lengthwise.
Where they joined you had them tied with what?
JM: With pita . We call i t pita in south Texas; that's the
t?)
name of the palm tree where we get the leaves. We get the
leaves, the n we strip them down.
M: How come you don't call them yucca?
JM: Up in Ari zona , that's what I'm s aying, south Texas. Up
here in San Antonio I notice that the people call them Spanish
Dagger. Up in that part of the country , west, they call them
yucca.And down south, we call them pita.
----------.
M: What does pita !!!§Ell? ~)hat does it come from?
JM: I don't know.
M: Just a word that you use.
JM: Anybody you ask them about that plant, they'll tell you it's
of the cactu~Plant and it grows a very nice , approximate 3
feet,flower . Beautiful fl ower .I understand it's edible . You
Martinez
JM: can cook it something like you do cabbage.
M: I've read that. And the seeds are edible. The herb lady
in the Folklife Festival told me that they are edible.
NOw you take these leaves of pita, what we call yucca, and
you strip them. Do you pull them or do you use a knife? How do
you get those strips?
JM: First of all, you have to choose long •• the longer they are,
the better, wide and flat. The next thing, after you choose a
good plant like that, you cut them of~the night before you wou l d
generally cook them over a fire. That would make them more
pliable and Easier to work with. A lot of time you would just
throw them out in the sun and do the same thing. Takes a little
longer, but I think it's better if you cook them over a fire.
M: How do you do that? Do you put them in a kettle ?
JM:lt doesn't take long. You just put 'em on the fire and the
juice starts coming out and they become more flexible.
M: Do you cut that awful sharp point off first?
JM:YOu cut that off. And by stripping them , you hold it with
your feet on the ground , grab it on your left hand side with
your thumb in the center of the plant. Then you grab the knife
with the blade down and you work it with the back of your blade
so that you do not cut the fiber.
M: YOu go from the bottom to the top?
JM: From about the center to the top. Then you just pull 'em
with your hand.
M: YOu don ' t have to do it all the way to the bottom?
JM: No mam. Because the fiber will stay in line.
M: About how many strands do you ge t out of one leaf?
JM : About 8 or 10.
2.
Martinez
M: That many Why do you suppose they started using that for
ties?
JM: For one thing, I canno~hink of anything simi l ar. It's
pretty strong. People use it also, in south Texas, f or
binding corn and cane ; bundle with that same material. Before
we had any rope, tha t was what it was used for . When you start
thatching a roof, you have to put a frame; have t o put a frame
up with your rafters.
M: We 're on the roof now .
JM: We're on the roo f. You tie your rafters with this
material . You tie your grass in little bundles .
M: What kind of grass is that?
JM: We go back again t o the same thing as the pita . We cal l it
----------
sacahuiste grass. Any rancher you talk to from here to Del
Rio or down south Texas, they know what your'e talking about .
Especially down Cotulla.
M: It's a beautiful word .
JM: A pre tty word.
M:That ' s the grass you use?
JM : Well, that's one of the grasses. There's another one , also
v e ry good. And the name of it being sacaton.I've only seen it
along the creeks in south Texas.
M: When you were demonstrati ng , you mentioned the fact, what
we hear over and over again, that the people used what was
there at hand
J M: That's correct.
M: And that's the grass they found i n south Texas.
JM:ln south Texas. And in fact, that grass does not grow)
put it this way ... doesn 't grow allover the place . It only
3 .
Martinez
JM: grows in certain regions and mostly on sandy soil
along the creeks. When you got ready to build a roof, you had
to make an expedition and go cut and haul your grass in the
wagon . That was one of the first thingS.
M: Along the creeks .
JM : Along the sides in sandy soil.
M: Do you suppose they chose the sacahuiste because it was
resistant to water and heat?
JM:That is correct. It 's resistant , more than anything e lse.
On a roof you would want to stay away from your JOhnson grass ,
Sweet Sudan , Sorghum, anything like that. The sweetness of
the grass will attract animals . And also , it's not a very
lasting grass. It rots.
M: So the two you like are more resistant to insects.
JM:Anima l s . If it was pretty low, a cow or horse wou l d prob­ably
eat it out. Then the smaller animals .. you take your
weasels " just about anything that wou l d be attracted .
M: That could climb up on the roof.
JM: Then, also , they rot away very easily . Exposed to the rain
and the sun , they will rot away.
M: Sacahujste and sacaton will hold up against the weather?
JM: A very , very long time.
M: That grass that you have up there .. is that sacahuiste?
JM: I have both grasses for demonstration.
M: Which one were you using while I watched?
JM: That was sacahuiste. Sacahuiste is a smaller grass than
sacaton.
M: YOu mean shorter?
JM Shorter .. uh hUh.
4 .
Martinez
M: Now these bundles that you have ready for t hatching are
what: About 15 inches long?
JM: About 15, 18 inches l ong.
M: YOu know, because you're an expert at this, you know
just how much grass to put in a bund l e. How do you determine
5.
that?
JM : Well,You know long ago, the measurements that we used for
several things .. you want to measure land , you would wa lk that
land, so many paces , so many feet. Or you want to measure
a rope , you grab a rope and you e xtend that that's 5 feet
from one hand to the other one. Then you use your hand •. that's
10 inches .• I don't know how you call it in EngliSh~uart~ •
One hand from the little finger to the thumb, that's 10
inches. Or you say that's 4 inches, [.ill«stra.h"'a w', 1h t';ngen.]
M: Really. 4 fing e rs.
JM : That ' s o ne inch in here.
M: I know that one. We women used to say a yard was from nose
to outer hand.
JM: Those are t he measur ements. And in this case . . . you asked
me about the thickness. Whatever you get on these two fingers
three fingers, let me put it this way.
M: Thumb, first finger and middle f inger.
JM: That's a very good measurement.
M: That's intere sting. And then you get it al l even, don't you?
The ends all e v en .
JM:We ll, let me ?~t it this way : you do not necessarily have to
put it in bund l e s. Except if you put it in bundl e s, the same
thing goes with your corn or your hay, it's a lot easier to
work ; it's a lot eas i e r to grab a bundle and put it aW ~1
Martinez 6.
J M: than to untang l e it from the bunch . But you could build
a roof without t hem .
Besides being in a bundle , you put about 8 or 10 together
and when you send them up to the man that's doing the thatch-i
ng up there, they are already tied i nto about 8 or 10.
Una sabi lla. That
man up there and
woul d make it
Jr.<-'<'- co.
he wouldl\it and
throw him one at a time .
easier to throw it to the
set it aside rather than
M: About 8 or 10 in a bunch . Before you send those up, you
have tied those bundles with the pita.
~
JM~ W ith the pita.
M: Do you have a special knot t hat hold~' be tter than
others?
JM : For th at , it ' s just a square knot. You go over it t wo
'--'
times and tie it as tight a s possible and then you tie a
square knot.
M: From the way you ' re talking, it t akes two people to
thatch a roof .
JM :Let me put it this way . As a rule , back in the old days ,
a l o t of people .. the ne ighbor would pitch i n to he l p the
one doing the job to get i t over much f as t er . A l ot of t hings.
I remember I when we worked cattle, you wou l d call into
your neighbor to come and give you a hand t o work cattle. And
then he needed you so he wou ld call you .
I t's not very l ogical or feasible for one man t o thatch
a roof . It would be pos sible but it's not practical. It
wou l d usua lly be severa l people around. Probably someone would
be making the bundles; a no t her wou ld probab l y be sendi ng it
up; another man on top would be laying it down .
Marti nez 7.
M: One thing I wanted to ask you .. you say you s end the
wagon to go get the grass .
JM: Correct.
M: Do you cure t he grass before you start putting it into
bundles?
JM: You wou l dn ' t c u r e it. YOu would probably , while you are
making the bundles • .. if you see little bugs , rotted ~~~y , you
don't like it, you wou l d probably get r i d of i t .There ' s nO
special curing to it. You would try t o use the best that you
had in there.
M: Actual l y , when it ' s fr e sh, it' s more fl ex ible , isn't it ?
JM: That 's correct.
M: You ' ve sent this gabi lla o f 8 or 10 bundles up . O.K. nOW
he ' s starting out . He's got his f rame work. His rafters are
.~
tied tO ge ther~ 'E it a. Now he 's going to maK~the first r ow, which
you' ve got up there i n your demonstration . They ' re just l a i d
right One next to the other. then tell me what ' s the next
step.?
JM: The next step wi ll come right back On this same row.
You've gone o ver your first row .
END OF TAPE I, Side 1, 30 minutes
TAPE I, Side 2
JM: Then you're going to have)between bunches, this little
light , to cove r in between the bunches, you come back to
the same place except you put it in between.
M: I see. The next r ow comes l ike t his , over the gap.
JM:That's right. Thafs your first row. You doub l e it up.
M: Now for i nstance, here are t wo bundles . . the f irst t wo .• then
this is coming up the same height .. b u t it's fill j~~ in the gap .
8.
Martinez
J M~Exce pt it will be on top , filling the gap that was lef t
by t he othe r t wo .
M: NOw you had a stick that was going to hold t his down
somehow.
JM :That's the one to ho l d it .
M: That ' s the next thing.
JM:Correct.
M: And t hat's going t o be tied?
JM: First of all, we 've already had the rafters down, we ' ve
already got the hui lotes . I'm going to talk to you i n a
minute about the rafters and a bou t these huilotes.
M: Huilotes. Th a t' s the frame wo r k,eh?
JM :Those are the s takes that go across the rafters. They are
about 3/4 inch t hick .
M: Not very thick.
J M: No , they ' re not very thick,We usua lly used to ge t t hem
out of granj eno .That bush has a tendency to grow very nice !
strai ght , for a good 4 , 5 feet l ong.
M: So you don ' t have any lumps and bumps. This granj enQ
is the wood that makes the framework?
JM : That' s right .I wou l d like to e l aborate a little bit on
the rafters. Your rafters were chosen out of a tree, the
f ami ly of the wi llow tree.In Spanish we have a word that
wou l d tell you exact l y what you are talking about . In English
when you say willow tree, it cou l d be
you have in your f ront yard; it cou l d
a crying wi llow t hat
~~
be~wi ll ow tree that
branches off very b i g and very beautiful i n sout h Texas.
Or it could be a taray . The ~ has a tendency to grow
approximately 3,4 inches wi de. And grows straignt up , 8 ,
,,, .1:: __ .L. 1~..!_. 1_
Martinez 9.
M: YO~e trying to get straight wood but i~ also has to be
pretty strong, doesn 't it, to stand up under weight and heat;
sun.
said ,
JM : Those} liRe I ~ are very strong; very sturdy.They 're
,
very straight, theyre long; you peel them off and they last a
long time.
M: They are peeled.
JM: YOu peel them before hand; more posSiblY a little bit
better . Otherwise if you did not peel this, the peel would be
in the way; would falloff; be a mess. So by peeling them
it woul d make them more beautiful, clean 'em out.
M: That shows inside the house , doesn't it?
JM: That's correct.
M:I expect s e veral people have come in to help with the new
roof.Have you tied th ese willow things, when you're laying
'-/
your rafters, ~o~ , have~ti ed that with pita , too?
JM: Those are your rafters , that is correct.
M: ARe they tied with t his same pita?
JM: They are tied with that same pita.
M: Strong enough to do even the big ones.
JM: Co rrect.
YOu already have your rafters; you already have your
huilotes . Now you're going to start laying down your grass.
M: Huilotes are the cross bars?
JMiYes .. Huilotes of the granjeno bush .
M: That's the branch of this? O.K. Now I've got it.You've
got t he cross pieces on; the big supporting one s.
JM: You start laying down your grass . YOu've already laid 2
rows, one on top of the other, making sure that you cover the
openings between the others. Now you're ready t o take another
Martinez
JM : huilote on top of that grass so as to hold it down.
You tie about every 18 inches. About every l~inches you would
tie to the one on the bottom . Thi s is going to be right on
top of the other one.
M: And about every 18 inches you tie it down.
JM: About every 18 inches. As you go along, you neve r tie
down in a row. When you come back with your next row, it's
going to cover these where you tied it down , it is going to
cover it up. Now you come and tie somewhere else and when you
have your next row, it's going t o cover that one again .
Now there is one important thing; one of the main things
people don 't know. I don't show it because I don 't have
the way to show it here but you have a needle .• see •. as you
progress with your roof,a man needs to be underneath. In
order to ti e this material . You're on top; this is the
roof; you 're going to tie this thing down . So you send the
it
pita down; this man on the bottom will fit~in the needle
and he brings it around the huilot§ and he pushes it on up .
10.
Then the man will take the needle back and he'll tie a double
knot on top.
M: The guy on the bottom just sends it back.
JM: That 's all he does is send it back.
M: The Rita come5down •.
JM: The needle would probably be about a yard l ong with a
point. YOu put your pita in here and and this man will just
penetrate it through the bunch. The man will grab it; pull it
out; and send it back.
M: Whats it made of, this needle? Is it metal?
JM: No mam. no , no .. A stick .. you would kind of f l atten it up
::l ~-rlo. hi t-loV"o co,", HA" r:::.n rlr; l' :::. hnl0
11.
Martinez
H. It ' s got to be a big enough ho l e to put that p i ta through .
JM : The hole has to be approximately 1/4 of an inch . That
would be s u fficient.
M: How wide are those strips/going way back when you ' re
stripping?
J~pproximately 5/16 or something like that.
M: That's narrow, isn't it?
JM : They're very narrow ... Maybe 3/16; that's more like it.
As you probably know, in the old days , there was not bit or
d rill to drill a hole so you got yourself a piece of iron and
put it in t he fire until it got red hot and t he n you burn it
through. You would burn it t hrough to make that hole .
M: Isn ' t it interesting how they "made do"? How they worked
it out? Today everything is handed to us.
JM : That 's why we get fat and we get heartdisease.
M: That ' s one of the reasons I wanted you to come down and
talk about thatching . This is one of the things t hat happened
in the early part of our history; it's important.
JM : We ll, the thatching being one o f the things • • the r e was no
other material available .. that ' s how it all got started.
You had to have something . .><.
Lu\>J1I'
M: You continue on down~the same way , lapping and over- lapping
and putting the stick down and then covering that and going on
tying, all the way to t he end .
JM: When you are through with it, i t looks prett y much like a
o~
shingled roof because they ' re going to~overlapping just the
same way as the shing l es do until you get a ll the way to the
~top of the roof.
M: YOu start at the bottom and go to the top?
JM; YEs mam.
Martinez 12.
M: Oh , you do!
JM : Every time that you put one more row, it's going to be on
top of the other one.
M: But you 're working toward the peak of the roof.
JM: That's right.
M: Suppose you ' re thatching an jacal, just two roomsja small
two-room jacal. How long would it take to t~Qtch that? Two
men working?
JM:Well , look. It takes a lot of work and a lot of man hours.
M: That's what I was wondering .
JM:It's taking us about a week with 12 or 15 students helping
over in the Texas Tech University.
M: Are you working out there at the ranch museum?
JM: We did work out there several years ago.
M: Have you been out to Mission San Juan?
J M: In San Antonio? Yes.
M: They thatched one of the roofs because O' Neil Ford
said this was the way they would have done it in the early days
of the missions.
J M: I have not been there since they thatched that.
M: You should see it; it's quite interesting .Mr. Ford felt
that it was important to do it in the way it probably was done
in the first place .
JM: Who is Mr. Ford?
I
M: 0 Neil Ford, t he very famous architect.Just died recently.
JM : O.K. Where is the mission?
M: Es pada and San Juan are the two lower miss ions
END OF TAPE I, Side 2, 30 minutes.
Martinez
TAPE II, Side 1
(First few minutes noisy.)
M: ESpada is the one they hope eventually to have a farm
just like the early Spaniards had, when they were working
with the Indians out there. Grow the things that they were
growing. Sometime when you're around here, go look at that
because you would fi~it very interesting. There's one
13.
buuding, this way from the church. That's the only thatching
I've seen here in San Antonio. I've seen thatching in Scotland
and England. They're very thick. How thick, when you get
through doing this grass thatching, about how thick?
JM: Oh, about 4 inches.
M: That's pretty thick. When you've covered all the gaps.
JM:What happens is that you are inner lapping every time you
put one more row. Your first row might come all the way to here.
YO~ut your second row/is going to come to here. And your
third. Now you have approximately 3 rows at this point. So it's
getting thicker. But of course this terminated with the first
one so I say you average about 4 inches.
M: How lon~ will a thatched roof last?
JM: I have heard from people that they would last 20 or 30
years.
M: My goodness! Really?
JM: Of sacahuiste or sacaton.
M: You're talking about south TExas, aren't you? You get
rain down there. When I was talking to Mr. Gonzalez about
how long would adobe last, and it depended on the climate.
OUt west, it would last forever!
JM:How many years did he say it would last?
M: Depending on the weather, whether it was hot, dry country
Martinez
M: or what not. But he said out west where the re is very
little rain, it would last forever.YOu see adobe buildings
in Mexico which look like they've been there for a thousand
years. WEll, it rains in MeXico.
14.
JM: Some of those a dobes were protected by ~overhang and also
by plastering with lime.
M: How come you're an expert on thatching?
JM:If you're a Texas cowboy, you have to know everything.
You have to build fences; repair windmills; drive a bull dozer;
break horses; work cattle; work on the farm machines; be a
mechanic; be a welder; you have to be everything.
M: And that' how you learned to thatch?
JM: YOu've got to collect mesquite poles; work with an axe.
M: Did you start out your life as a cowboy? On this side
or the other side?
JM: I come from Dolores. That's in Zapata county. The one
that I am talking about, this Dolores, is about 18 miles south
of Laredo, Texas. Is on the Texas border.That being the first
settlement , the first Spanish settlement, north of the Rio
Grande.
M: No r th? It's in Texas, then.
JM: It's in Texas.
M: So you lYe a Texan.
JM:Oh yes.
M: How old were you when you started being a cowboy?
JM:Well, when you're born and raised at the ranch, you
start out with differenT chores; started out with a milk cow.
You have to take care of the calf; to feed the calf; to water
the calf.
M: When yo~re a little kid, this is.
15.
Martinez
JM: You have to go bring the cow; and milk the cow. YOu have to
take care of the saddle horses; sheep or goats, whatever you
happen to have. So by the time you 're a teen-ager, you're
pretty experienced.
M: You were born on a ranch, I take it.
You grew up on a ranch?
JM: I was not born on a ranch but I grew up on a ranch.
M: And as you were growing up and learning all these things,
somehwere along you learned how to tahtch a roof.
JM: Uh Huh. At the ranch, my father always employed several
men.My uncles and my Dad. So the best training that anybody
could have. And I say that's why we're off right now. The
kids who are starting to work .... As you know ,years ago
most kids would generally take the trade of their father.
Because he was the one who taught them rather than school.
M: But no more. And that's one of the reasor6this Folklife
Festival is so wonderful, isn't it?Isn't that why you come
and give your time, because you think it's important?
JM: Yes.
M: You're a busy man and yet you're willing to take these
4 days and do it. And a whole lot of people are going to go
away from this thing knowing something they didn't know
before.
Have I got everything now you wanted to say on the tape?
I 've gone over the 30 minutes I promised but it's so in­teresting
I didn't want to stop.
JM: I was j ust going to emphasize the fact that in a roof/
when the wind b lows dirt and dust on that roof •. you know
wind will accumulate dust everywhere and anywhere and outside
16.
Martinez
JM: is no exception. The wind will blow some of this dirt
and dust and when it first rains , that dirt and dust has
a tendency to fill up those l ittle cracks in the roof. And
that is going to help it a lot. So the older the roof gets,
the better it gets .
M: Kind of like cement or clay going in there, isn't it?
J~t helps to seal it off.
M: You say it will last quite a long time . If I had a thatched
roof on my house, I would think maybe there would be a little
patch here, there, that would have to be repaired.
JM: That ' s right. ONce in a while. I would be willing to say
it would last a good 10 years. .,.\6
,;)0
M: A good ten years with here and therea patch have to
A
be replaced?
JM : I wouldn ' t think so. Not on your first ten years.It
would probably be after your first ten years.
I don ' t know if I mentionwit before or not, but one of
the important things about thatching a roof is that you
need to have a good pitch to that roof. You cannot have a
flat roof.
M: Oh you can't?
I
JM: No, if you have a flat roof then it would run off.
One thing that I would like to build in here, would be a
jacal. And that's what was used where I grew up.People
would build the building out of mesquite wood instead of
adobe.
M: Did they plaster between?
JM: They would plaster on the center and on the inside.
M: There is one over in LaVillita.
l7 •
Martinez
JM:I have seen, like your sotol , up at the ranch headquarters ,
The sotol is built in this manner; sort of two wa l ls out of
sotol and then they filled this with little pebbles and mud
and what have you . It ' s about a 4 inch wall. But on your
mesquite wood , you put it in there and you fill up the
openings with mud and also your inside . Your outside you
don't have to worry about it because rain is going to hit it
and your mesquite wood is going to protect your mud and it
wi l l drain off in here but it won ' t come inside .
That is one thing the people haven't seen in here , jacal
made out of mesquite. They've done some in here with a
chimney out of rock but I would like to do one out of mes­quite
wood . The way they used to do it. And then thatch
it with grass .
M: If you and RAymond Gonzalez would get together . We talked
of having an adobe house out there in the back 40 and a
thatched roof. Wouldn't that be great ! It would be done i~
somebody would come forth with the money.
JM:I wasn't thinking about the adobe; I was thinking about
the mesquite wood.
M: Do you know where Nueva P l aza is over in LaVillita?
JM: UH huh .
M: There is a little house over there, called the Gissi
house , one the very early ways of building here . . . the
sticks came up like this and in between was clay. I can't
think of the name of that kind of construction .
JM: We put two sticks in here and then we would fill it up
with something like firewood.
Martinez
JM: And then we would put .. let's say about 20 inches from
here, we would put another one . This one would hold these
sticks in here and would go in here.
M: That's a different construction. It would be wonderful
to have it; there's room back there
JM:I would like to build it next to that ... or e lse do
18.
another .•• instead of the shingles .. where they're working on
that new chimney right now,maybe either put a grass roof on
top of that or remove that and put a complete roof. Or
build another one right next to it and thatch it.
M: All this takes time. I bet we'll ge t it eventually
though. It takes money. It's always money .
Have we forgotten anything about the thatching?
END OF TAPE II, Side I, 30 minutes.
Tape II, Side 2
M: ...•. revolution of what? The Madero revolution?
JM: Ye~n 1910.
M: Came over to your ranc~in Dolores?
JM Oh yes. Dolores had its episodes. Up and down. It start­ed
around 1750, but it had a different location.
M: The river changed, didn 't it?
JM: NO. They moved it about 1 mile higher up. I don 't
know what year, but it was moved higher up. And then my
grand, grand, grand grandfather bought part of that land
and it's been in the family ever since.
M: And it still is?
JM:That was about 1860.
M: ~t your g r eat, great grandfathe r bought it.
19.
Martinez
M: The whole border was affected by that revolution of
1910, wasn'~it?
JM: In 1923, the people that came over were able to .. they
wanted to become citizens .. they had to apply for it •• and
they would very easily become citizens. But then the people
that would come over from Mexico in those days were the
people that were better off; they had the money.
M: Oh? Not like today?
JM: Not like today. And also there was no border patrol in
those days.People would just go and come back.
A lot of people had families on both sides of the river.
If there was a store across the river, they would just go to
the store and buy and come back. Nothing was thought about it.
M: And there wasn't any trouble, was there?
JM: No.
M: Now we've got such problems, haven't we?
J~one thing is that the number of people amounts to a very
large number. I think it's going to be some time before ..•
And it's not going to be easy to solve that problem.
M: I don't see how they're going to solve it.
JM:~ome of these people have been over here so long and have
since married and have children. You can't very well send them
back.
M: They send them back and they keep coming back just like
a merr{g1-round.
JM: It's not going to be an easy thing.
M:Mexico has to get its economy in hand again; its a mess.
JM: I don't know if you heard yesterday the peso went all the
way to SO.It also hurts the United STates specially.
20.
Martinez
JM ; Your bordertowns and t~~t includes San Antonio ; about
150 miles north of the border • . they do miss a l ot of business
from Mexico . Laredo is very much hurt .
END OF TAPE II , Side 2, 3 , 4 minutes .