THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: General John McGiffert
DATE: 1 December 1992
PLACE: Oral History Office, ITC
INTERVIEWER: Esther MacMillan
M: This is an interview with General John McGiffert, the
date is December 1, 1992. The place is the Oral History
Office at the Institute of Texan Cultures and I am Esther
MacMillan. Now, what do you want to talk about first, John?
JM: Oh, I want to talk about the Institute.
M: Okay .
JM: Okay , and my eight years here and really what evolved
here in those eight years.
M: Yeah, I'd like to have that. That would be good, too.
I should say somewhere in here that you were one of the most
successful directors ever was.
JM: Well, we've only had four.
M: I know, but of the four. I have worked under some
other directors in my day. I'm a fairly good judge . Okay .
JM: Well, I want to talk about how and why I came here.
M: Okay .
JM: As you know, I spent 38 years in the Army .
M: Yeah.
JM: And the last 2 1/2 years I had spent at Fort Sam
Houston in San Antonio as Commanding General of the 5th
United States Army . And my wife and I decided to retire
MCGIFFERT
here and about the time I retired the opportunity arose to
talk to Jack Maguire, the Executive Director, about coming
here to work as the Administrator, ... which was a new job .
M: Oh.
2
JM: A new position that had never been filled before. And
so I did come down and talk to him and I decided ... and the
University agreed ... to come to the Institute on a trial
basis . I would take two months to get settled in San
Antonio, I would work for two months, get to know the place
and the people, and let them get to know me.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: And then if we were compatible, I would take the summer
of 1983, three months, as a vacation and then come back to
work in September 1983. And that's what I did.
M: Good arrangement.
JM: Now ... yeah?
M: Would you explain the difference to me between and
administrator and an executive director, they all sound
pretty fancy to me?
JM: Well, the Executive Director has been here since the
place began.
M: Yeah.
JM: And at that time Jack Maguire had been advised and had
decided that he needed a number 2 man; he didn't have one.
He was dealing directly with division directors and he ...
M: I see.
MCGIFFERT
JM: ... he had some problems, management problems and what
have you .
M: Uh-huh.
JM : And administrative problems.
M: Now, what about ... going back to Henderson Shuffler,
who was the first one, did he have any?
3
JM: No, Henderson Shuffler was a ... was here at a
different time and under different circumstances and he was
. .. oh, I didn't know him, of course, and wasn't here but I
have sensed since then that he was an organizer . He had a
dream. He had a focus.
M: Uh-huh .
JM: He had great authority directly from the governor.
that's Governor John Connally. And then he had a love of
history in Texas and he was a very erudite and ...
M: Research person.
JM: research oriented humorist.
M: Was he? I didn't know he was a humorist.
JM: Oh, he had a tremendous sense of humor.
M: I didn't know that!
JM: But he knew exactly what he wanted with this place and
of course, he was really the source of what we have here
today .
M: Uh-huh.
JM: Now, after HemisFair '68 closed, ... the Institute was
not in very good financial condition as you know. Joe Perry
MCGIFFERT
has talked about that .
M: Yes .
JM : But they stayed alive through the leadership of
Henderson Shuffler.
M: I didn't know that.
JM : And he had wonderful p eople here, O.T. Baker . ..
M: Yeah .
4
JM: . .. people who were . .. .. are still dedicated to
keeping alive the traditions and the heritage of Texans from
the earliest days .
M: Yes.
JM: And very competent and capable people, but very loosely
organized and what have you. Well, as time went on, and
Henderson died, of course, and Jack MacGuire came in and it
changed then; it had to . It was an absolutely essential
thing. And what it changed into is one of the reasons, the
primary reason, I came here. I sensed from the v ery
beginning it was a unique place. And it was unique for a
number of reasons: first, education really was its top
priority, that's what I'm interested in .,.
M: Oh , are you?
JM: This place wa s not satisfied to collect
information, and evaulate it and store it away on a shelf
somewhere, as so often happens.
M: Oh, I see where you're getting.
JM: And this place had a vibrant '" a vibrancy to it that
MCGIFFERT 5
was hard to define, but came from the educational focus
M: Uh-huh.
JM: and the desire of everyone to distribute and make
known to people
M: Uh-huh.
JM: ... children and adults, the materials that had been
gathered. And finally it had a statewide responsibility and
that to me, was, and is, extremely important. It isn't a
San Antonio focused Institute, yet San Antonio is very
important to it. And it is important to San Antonio
although that's not generally appreciated at times.
M: (laughter) More and more though, I think.
JM: But even then, back in 1983, the Institute had already
reached millions and millions of people with its message of
strength through multi-cultural diversity. That's what this
place is about, really.
M: Uh-huh .
JM: The history of Texas is one of diverse cultures coming
together and learning to live together and learning to live
with each other and enjoying each other, in fact. It had
already reached millions with that message and I felt, and I
still feel, it has the potential of being an effective tool
in Texas in helping Texans of all religions and all races
and all cultures and all faiths to improve their
understanding of each other and their communications between
each other. Now to me, that's what the Institute of Texan
MCGIFFERT
Cultures is.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: And that's why I came here, I wanted to be a part of
that process. So I did.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: Now we haven't gotten very far but that's . ..
M: Yes, we have.
JM: . .. what I wanted to get across. Now you asked about
an administrator. I was hired as an administrator, which
was really a kind of a deputy to the executive director.
M: I see.
6
JM: My responsibilities were to supervise all the divisions
and departments in the Institute, except, at that time,
Program Planning, which was the Research and the Library
departments, and Program Management, which was the Alliance
office and the Education Programs office and the Texas
Folklife Festival.
M: Oh?
JM: And you may recall at that time John Davis was the
Director of Program Planning.
M: Was he? I didn't know that.
JM: Yes, that was what he was. And Patrick McGuire was the
Director of Program Management and his office was downstairs
in the Alliance office. You remember that?
M: Nope.
JM: Oh, come on now!
MCGIFFERT
M: No I don't, I didn't come here until '7 ..... well, I
came here in ...
JM: This was in '83.
7
M: I didn't know the titles.
JM: Well, you remember Patrick was downstairs?
M: Yeah, but I remember Patrick was doing books and stuff
and John Davis was my boss .
JM: Yes, but John Davis also was the boss of the library
M: I didn't know that .
JM: ... and the research department and his role was the
program planner ...
M: I didn't realize that.
JM: . .. he layed out what research was going to be
conducted in the future and what books would be taken on to
be published and then the rest of the Institute followed
that lead, you see?
M: I see.
JM: And he worked very closely with the executive director.
So I was responsible for supervising everything in the
building except
M: John's ...
JM: . .. research and the library, and Program Management .
They called Patrick McGuire's division down there which
included the Alliance, Educational Programs and the Texas
Folklife Festival .
MCGIFFERT 8
M: You didn't have the Folklife Festival ....
JM: Not at first I didn't, no.
M: Okay.
JM: Now, I worked primarily with Leonard Scotty, who was
the Director of Business Affairs, and incidently an
extremely important man in the development of this building.
Probably as much so as any person in the Institute's
history. He was an extremely talented and very, very loyal
and competent business administrator.
M: Uh.
JM: I worked with Leonard Scotty and his personnel
director. Leonard Scotty was the Director of Business
Affairs and he supervised the business office, the personnel
office and the physical plant. These were his
responsibilities. And so I worked with him and his
personnel officer, Cheryl Westerburg, and Bob Brodeur, who
was the Business Officer. And I spent most of my first few
months almost totally with those three people.
M: ~.
JM: I was learning the state and regental and Institute
rules and regulations and procedures, which are incredibly
complex.
M: I'll bet.
JM: And I was also getting to know and gain the trust of
the entire staff while I was doing that . Now, I also had
the responsibility to improve internal communications and
MCGIFFERT 9
understanding and cooperation between the various
departments in the building . And this was extremely
important . Those ... that understanding and those
communications were not good in those days . And especially
between the business side and all others, and production and
all others ...
M: (laughter) Oh, yes, indeed.
JM: ... and between research and education programs -
there's always been a communications problem. So that was
one of my primary responsibilities and I did a lot of work
in attempting to improve that. One of my major thrusts from
the very beginning was to computerize the Institute.
M: Uh.
JM: To bring it into the 20th century, if you will. We
had, in the building, when I got here, two word-processors,
one in the development office and one in the business
office . Everybody else was ... using typewriters . There
was no inter-office communications to speak of; there was
telephone, but other than that we weren't very modern.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: And that took a lot of my time for the first five years
I was here ...
M: I'll bet.
JM: ... to computerize. In order to improve understanding
and communications between production division and the rest
of the building, I built a prioritization system which
MCGIFFERT 10
enabled the development of priorities in the production
area. These were updated every several months throughout my
stay here. They attempted to take the responsibility for
prioritizing what was always an overload of work in the
production department, off of the division director. David
Haynes was, and still is, I think, the Director of
Production. And that responsibility had just been left up
to him, and he didn't want it and he was not the right man
to do it.
M: No, he certainly wasn't.
JM: So I built a prioritization system which used to drive
David Haynes and me nuts ... and I think most people didn't
really pay much attention to it, but it honestly helped .
One of the things I had to do right away with the
personnel office and the business office was to reorganize
and rewrite the personnel manual of the Institute.
M: Oh, my goodness!
JM: Rewrite and reorganize the budget procedures and also
the administrative memoranda in the Institute. And of
course Leonard Scotty did a lot of that work and Bob Brodeur
and Cheryl Westerburg did a l ot of the work, but it was my
responsibility and I was deeply involved in that for months.
One of my early tasks that had to be done, was to
educate the staff on financial management principles and
procedures. Financial management procedures weren't
practiced, except in the Production Division. David Haynes
MCGIFFERT 11
was, and is, an excellant financial manager and he had that
under control. And within the business office and Leonard
Scotty's office the budgeting for the Ins titute was done
well, but the department directors weren't involved which
was very, very bad ...
M: That's strange. Yeah.
JM: And I had to improve the programming and budgeting
procedures
M: My goodness.
JM: ... and almost immediately I saw we had to improve the
effectiveness of the internal organization.
M: What do you mean by that?
JM : Well, Jack Maguire had organized the Institute into a
very logical organization, it just didn't fit the people.
M: Oh.
JM: He had ... I've already mentioned a Program Planning
Division which was responsible for the Library and the
Research Department; a Program Management Division
responsible for the Alliance, Educational Programs and the
Texas Folklife Festival ...
M: Uh- huh.
JM: ... that was under Patrick McGuire.
M: Yeah.
JM: He had a Director of Business Affairs, I've mentioned,
Leonard Scotty, who had Business, Physical Plant and
Personnel, and he had a Director of Development who had the
I
MCGIFFERT 12
Development Office and Marketing. And then he had News and
Information, which was a separate office directly under the
Executive Director.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: Patrick McGuire was a wonderful, wonderful researcher
and writer and he just did amazing things in this building.
He was a horrible manager. He did not want to be a manager.
He wanted to be a Research Associate and it took me almost
two years to get him out of the Program Management job. And
he was very happy to do it ...
M: I'm sure.
JM: so I had to do some internal reorganization. And
in fact, the organization I ended up with was not an
efficient one, but it worked well with me.
M: Oh .
JM: And I would imagine it's changed since I left. Now ...
am I boring you? Is this okay?
M: Not a bit! Oh, I'm so glad you're doing this! It
needed to be done, you know.
JM: One of the other things that had to be done, I saw when
I got here, was to have someone here at the Institute in the
forefront in civic activities and what have you, in San
Antonio and also in the state.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: Jack Maguire had contacts allover the state of Texas
and one of his great assets and advantages was his contacts
MCGIFFERT
and his involvement in historical and other activities
around the state. He knew many, many governors; he knew
many people in the state that really helped the Institute.
No one was particularly active in San Antonio though so I
took that upon myself and I ...
M: Oh, dear.
13
JM: I was very active. I immediately joined the Rotary
Club, Jack Maguire was in the Rotary Club also.
M: You have to be.
JM: The Fiesta Commission carne to me right after I retired
from the Army and asked me to assume the presidency of Miss
Fiesta San Antonio which I did.
M: Oh, goodness.
JM: I had to keep that for two years. And the importance
of that was to keep that competition for Miss Fiesta San
Antonio alive. Its organizer and founder had died in the
previous year and so it was failing. And also to keep the
night parade going. You see, that was a part of that, so I
had that too, for a couple of years. So I was doing that
and the Rotary Club, 'course I was a member of the San
Antonio Chamber of Commerce, I was a Director of the
Fort Sam Houston National Bank. I've always been active in
my church. I became a Trustee of the Ecumenical Center for
Religion and Health
M: Good lord!
JM: I was a trustee of the Metropolitan San Antonio USO; I
MCGIFFERT 14
was an active member of the Worl d Affairs Council ; and then
during my tenure here I continued to serve in many Army
activities. I was the President of the San Antonio Chapter
of The Association of The United States Army . I was on the
National Board for The Association of The United States
Army. Also, I was appointed by the Governor of Texas to
serve on the Old San Antonio Road Preservation Commission
and the Christopher Columbus Quincentennial Texas Jubilee
Celebration; both of which took time. They weren't earth­shaking
jobs but they were time consuming .
M: But you were reaching into the community. That was the
main part, wasn't it?
JM: That was my whole point. I was seen . And I tried to
be seen in the context of those types of responsibilities
rather than on the social scene, although there was
certainly an overlap of that. So I was very busy, and of
course,
M: I can see, you must have been.
JM: . .. the job itself was very busy. Now this was a
difficult period for the Institute and particularly
difficult for the Maguires, Jack Maguire and his wife Pat ,
who also worked here, as you know .
M: Yes.
JM: And of course, she was diagnosed shortly a fter I came
here, with terminal cancer, which was her third bout with
cancer. Bless her heart, she really went through it .
MCGIFFERT 15
M: lousy deal.
JM: And this to began eat on Jack particularly, especially
as Pat became more hospital-bound and bed- bound in those
years of 1983-85. It was a very difficult period.
So I gradually assumed additional responsibilities, way
beyond what I outlined here. Jack always included me in
meetings with his boss. Now remember at this time, the
Institute of Texan Cultures was a separate component of the
University of Texas System and Jack reported directly to the
Executive Vice - Chancellor for Academic Affairs in Austin, at
t he University of Texas System office.
M: Say that again, it was what part of it? It isn't ...
it wasn't like it is now?
JM: No, it was a separate component.
M: Separate component. That's what I wanted.
JM: Of t he University of Texas System ...
M: Kinda strange ...
JM: And his boss was the Vice-Chancellor for Academic
Affairs up there. So there was a great deal of travel
communications and travel back and forth to Austin in those
days . For a number of us, particularly Leonard Scotty and
myself and Jack ... we were on the road a lot in those days .
I always attended the bi-monthly regental meetings with him
.. . sometimes without h im ... and I always attended and
participated in all of the budget reviews and programming
sessions with the vice-Chancellor and the Chancellor, and so
MCGIFFERT 16
Jack brought me into the management of the Institute
completely from the very beginning. And gradually I became
involved in the development effort and the extremely
important activities of the Development and Advisory Boards.
And I can't emphasize how important that aspect of this
Institute is, the development ... the Institute could not
have survived this long without an active and reasonably
effective Development Board and so I got into that, too,
very early.
M: well, now ... just a minute
means to me the fellows that get
the Development Board
gave the money?
JM: It's people who are organized and meet twice a year
M: Yeah .
JM: ... and stay in communications with us ' "
M: Uh-huh .
JM: . . . to not only get money but to let people know about
the Institute in their own communities ...
M: Oh, I see .
JM: This Develpment Board has membership from every part of
the state and Jack and I have always kept it geographically
disparate, if you will, so we are represented throughout the
state. And the roles that active board members take are
legion there ~s a tremendous variety of things that they
can and do for UE from influencing the legislature to
support us, to talking us up in the gubernatorial office, to
going to community schools and making us known ... making
MCGIFFERT 17
our products and services known to them. Oh, just all kinds
of things, similar to our ambassador program.
M:
JM: Now I think it's a shame that you've never interviewed
Jack and it's my fault. I should have insisted that he come
over here ...
M: Yeah.
JM: ... years ago . Because I want to make a record that
you should have ... we should have ... not you, it wasn't
your fault ... because Jack Maguire did more for the
Institute of Texan Cultures than he's generally credited
with
M: Oh?
JM: and in fact is responsibile for what I think are
the more important aspects of the Institute today. And I
want to run down those aspects.
M: Okay.
JM: First of all, when he came here, after Henderson
Shuffler died, I think in 1975 or '76, the Institute was a
part of UTSA, and he personally got a commitment from the
Chairman of the Board of Regents that he would attempt to
re-organize the Institute out from under the University of
Texas at San Antonio. And for a year or more afterwards,
the Institute was subordinate to UTSA. It was a Department
in UTSA, and it was a very difficult period for the
Institute and for UTSA. UTSA was a struggling, new, poor
MCGIFFERT 18
M: Uh-huh.
JM: highly criticized, university here in San Antonio
and they had no way to properly support the Institute, nor
even give it a thought, frankly. And it was only through
the fortunate presence of Peter Flawn as the President of
UTSA at that time, that the Institute did as well as it did
in those days,
M: Oh, was it?
JM: At any rate it was because of Jack's influence that the
Institute several years later was separated from UTSA and
made a separate component, directly under the UT System.
M: I see .
JM: I should point out, much of the staff at the University
of Texas System were apparently unhappy about that.
M: Were they?
JM: Yeah, the Institute was a real drag on that Staff
because we are so different from the normal University
functioning and it just made extra work for them for years
and years and years . And I've never talked to him about
this, but it was a real added responsibility of .. .
diversionary responsibility for the vice-Chancellor for
Academic Affairs . But in all honesty the man who was there
most of my tour, Jim Duncan, was very gracious in that
respect and very supportive of the Institute.
However, Jack Maguire did that, and for those years
MCGIFFERT 19
that we were separate, the Institute did become better known
throughout the state, and recognized for what it is. Jack
brought in people to advise him when he first got here and
he re-organized int ernally to a more business like
structure. Jack, while he was here, greatly increased
attendance at this place.
M: Did he?
JM: Greatly increased . It was, I think, by several
magnitudes from the statistics, the poor record of
statistics that were around when I got here.
M: How did he do that? How did he do ... advertising?
JM: He organized an Education Program Department; hired
Bonnie Truax who introduced many successful education
Programs, and tied the Institute in with School Districts
across the State, and increased outreach to schools.
M: ~.
JM: He got rid of the paid guides and initiated the
Volunteer, or Alliance Program, which in my mind was one of
the most critical steps he took. He undertook a viable
development effort to raise money, which Henderson Shuffler
really had not had under way. That isn't a criticizm of
Henderson ... he did not feel a need.
M: Sure.
JM: He was a man who would get along with what he had.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: And he did it very well. Jack did things like
MCGIFFERT
rejuvenating and expanding tremendously the traveling
exhibit program.
M: For goodness' sake.
20
JM: He tells the story about going down in the production
area when he got here and seeing two or three or four
traveling exhibits that the Institute had manufactured and
made in the early days. When told they were traveling
exhibits, he asked them how often they were out on the road,
and the answer was "Oh, hardly never. It's been months
since we had one out." Well, Jack rejuvenated that. It 1S
one of our biggest programs today and he's the one who
started that. He expanded the public information efforts of
the staff, although even today there are few Texans who
understand the true nature of the place or its state-wide
role or its real educational value. But Jack started the
effort to making people understand and know these things.
Jack supported the Texas Folklife Festival which Henderson
Shuffler had supported, also. He was influential in its
expansion to really the magnificent activity that it is, and
I must say that O.T.Baker who in my opinion is a marvelous
human being ...
M: I've got a wonderful interview with him.
JM: Yeah, I bet you do. He's quite a man, he's a little
nutty, but he's wonderful.
M: Oh, he sure is.
JM: And Claudia Ball. Are greatly responsible for that.
MCGIFFERT
And most especially JoAnn Andera, she's been the director
for many, many years now.
M: I have Claudia BaIlon tape, too.
JM: Well, you need to get JoAnn.
M: Should I do JoAnn?
JM: Oh, you bet.
M: I didn't think of that.
21
JM: Well, she's the one who really made it what it is
today. And she built on what O.T. and Claudia started, you
see. Jack also personally influenced the planning of major
exhibits here in the building.
M: Good heavens!
JM: And he did it with his own personal leadership.
M: He did?
JM: Also, he was very influential in working with John
Davis and well, John Davis particularly ... on the books
that would be published. Jack was influential in
establishing and maintaining the distinctive Institute
writing style which Jim McNutt and the editor and the
production division have maintained ever since. And that's
high quality stuff, to quote Mr. Perot, "That's world
class." And Jack did that.
M: Did he?
JM: Now Henderson had ... Henderson was a great writer,
too. And he insisted on excellent quality in our writings
from the very beginning. But Jack also did that. And the
MCGIFFERT 22
most important thing about Jack Maguire is he operated this
place in the black most of the time he was here .
M: Did he?
JM: And it was not easy .
M: No.
JM: As a matter of fact, some of the criticisms you hear
about Jack is he was a pinch-penny and what have you. But
he kept this place in the black and he kept it focused and
he insisted on quality.
M: ~ .
JM: And he deserves recognition for those things. And in
respect to the finances, staying in the black, this guy
Leonard Scotty ... is the one who must share that credit
with Jack because Leonard Scotty was an excellent financial
manager and he gave good advice and he was hard-nosed.
M: ~.
JM : So, enough about Jack McGuire, I wanted to get that in
there since this is my one shot with you.
M: Yes, sir.
JM : Now when Pat Maguire died in 1985, Jack immediately
decided to retire . He had already indicated to me that he
would retire sometime in that six-month period and so he
retired as of the end of August 1985. I was appointed
Interim Executive Director on the 1st of August 1985, and
then I remained Interim Executive Director for almost two
years. I believe I became the Executive Director in July of
MCGIFFERT
'87.
M: Executive Director, July '87.
23
JM: Yeah . So, for 23 months I was the Interim Director.
It wasn't done for this reason, but it's a good way to save
money.
M: I was going to say. ( laughter)
JM: But I didn't mind that, as a matter fact I thoroughly
enjoyed it ... that was an exciting time. Exciting
primarily because concurrently with Jack's departure the
Executive Vice-Chancellor for Academic Affairs in Austin,
Dr. Jim Duncan, who was Jack's boss and became my boss ...
M: Uh-huh.
JM: He initiated an action to place the Institute under
UTSA again. And in February 1986 Regent's meeting, in
Houston, the Board of Regents approved the transfer of the
Institute to UTSA. But instead of subordinating us totally,
they used the term "realigned". They aligned us with UTSA
but they changed the ... what I would cal l in the Army the
chain of command, the line of authority went from the
Executive Director to the President of UTSA.
M: Oh.
JM: And the Institute then no longer had separate status
within the UT system. My boss became the President of UTSA
who at that time was Dr. Jim Wagner, who was a great
supporter of the Institute and with whom I worked very well
for two years ... or more . So that was a bit of a difficul t
MCGIFFERT 24
period. I argued very strongly against this action and my
main basis for that argument was that our missions are so
divergent, are so different ...
M: Yeah.
JM: .. . that it would be next to impossible for the
President of UTSA to maintain the Institute at a high
priority level when he was faced with immense financial
problems still. He was faced with pressure to expand his
University, his physical plant was still inadequate, he was
looking towards expanding his degree programs, he was moving
to gain acceptance for graduate degrees, which have come to
pass since then, and there was just no way under those
conditions that over a period of years the University could
maintain any real level of priority for the Institute's
activities and so that worried me very much.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: Also, the University of Texas at San Antonio was, and
is, a regional university. This is a state-wide
organization ...
M: State-wide, yeah.
JM: ... and it's very hard for the President of UTSA, or
his staff, to get excited about our spending money in
Lubbock or El Paso or doing things elsewhere around the
state, you see. So ...
M: Why wouldn't it have been logical to put it under the
UT-Austin?
MCGIFFERT
JM: Well, that was considered, it would have been as
logical as this. The distances were part of the reason.
M: Oh.
JM: I think that probably if we had to go under a
University this is probably the best .
M: Do you think so?
25
JM: When the Board of Regents made that decision, as I say
they put the Executive Director's reporting channel up
through UTSA, through the President there ...
M: Uh-huh.
JM: They said that the reason they were doing this was to
save money and to bring the Institute closer to the academic
side of the UT system, which in fact was true. We had been
attempting ...
M: Uh-huh.
JM: ... to link with the academic departments of the
various academic components around the state in the
University System without much success.
M: Oh.
JM: They had no money; we had no money. They weren't
willing to give and we weren 't able to give ...
M: . . .. No.
JM: ... so we had struck out. So a little bit was
accomplished by that and hopefully over the years much more
will be accomplished, but it's a very difficult thing. But
the Regents indicated in the decision that was one of t he
MCGIFFERT
purposes .
M: Good.
JM: And then to save money they told Dr. wagner and me
26
to evaluate and study and consolidate as many support
functions as we could in the business and the physical plant
and personnel areas ... in order to save spaces. And we did
that and saved a few spaces and a little bit of money.
However, not very much at that time. And finally the other
reason that was given was for Dr. Wagner and me to work more
closely and harder to develop a plan for a stronger
University of Texas presence in downtown San Antonio.
M: Uh-huh. San Antonio.
JM: And those were the reasons that were given. Of course,
with that act our budgeting and our program development,
what-have-you, had to go through UTSA. Now, in fact, while
Dr. Wagner was President of UTSA for, I guess 3 more years,
he and I worked very closely together. I was treated as a
Vice-President, and attended his weekly meetings with his
vice-presidents, and that took a lot of time. (laughter)
M: I'l l bet.
JM: But I became a member of his advisory staff, if you
will.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: And we did get a lot closer to UTSA.
M: Was it beneficial?
JM: In many ways it was beneficial, they helped us
MCGIFFERT
financially
M: They did?
27
JM: They couldn't do much, but they helped us out a number
of times.
M: I never knew that.
JM: And there were other benefits. We began to ... in the
research area to have interchanges between academic
divisions out there and our research department here
M: That's good .
JM: ... some of our research associates began to teach out
there occas ionally
M: Uh-huh.
JM: ... and some of the teachers and professors out there
carne in here to conduct research.
M: Okay, let's turn ...
END OF SIDE 1, TAPE 1, ABOUT 45 MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
M: Okay, it's on .
JM: Okay. Now, when Jim Wagner retired, Dr. Sam
Kirkpatrick was brought to UTSA from Arizona. I think he was
at Arizona State at Tempe, and he became President of UTSA
and concurrently with his arrival, I was appointed ... Vice­President
of UTSA for Downtown Operations. So then I wore 2
hats for 2 years.
M: Oh, goody. (laughter)
JM: Executive Director and Vice-President for Downtown
MCGIFFERT 28
Operations and I began to study with the staff and faculty
at UTSA in what manner the UTSA presence could be built up
here at HemisFair. It didn't get very far with that study,
that analysis. We made some recommendations but it didn't
really go very well .
M: Oh?
JM: It was that one fact, I believe, that was the
overriding factor in Dr. Kirkpatrick's decision to change
the the two-hat status of the Executive Director here when I
retired later on ...
M: Yeah.
JM: ... I'll get back to that a little later. Let me talk
about this Instit ute though.
From the very beginning I was convinced, that this
place mutates in direct ratio to the vibrancy of its people
and the availability of funds. Now that's no big deal
can be said about almost any place. But people and
operating funds are the secret of the viability of the
Institute and the success of the Institute. Good people are
attracted here . We receive requests for employment from
very, very, very fine people ...
M: Oh, really?
JM: and quality people all of the time.
M: In spite of our l ow salaries? We're famous for low
salaries.
JM: No, no, you're getting ahead of me .
MCGIFFERT
M: Okay.
JM: I say we receive requests, applications, from people,
really fine, well qualified people, all of the time.
M: Urn.
29
JM: We lose a lot of them when they learn the salary
levels. However, the economic situation in San Antonio for
the last 6 or 7 years has brought, has helped to bring,
people to the Institute. But once they get here,
particularly if they are older, more mature and have family
... many of them move along as soon as they can, and that's
responsible for the turn-over here. Which has been a
problem at times. But it's just amazing to me the people in
this building who have been here for years and years and
years .. .
M: Uh-huh.
JM: and they're really good, high quality people and
they all have common traits
M: Oh?
JM:' of excellence in their discipline, of dedication,
commitment to this Institute and incredible individuality.
And that individuality and that commitment to their
responsibilities here in the Institute is what made managing
this place so much fun.
M: Oh?
JM: Because everybody in the place thinks that his or her
responsibility is the most important ...
MCGIFFERT 30
M: Sure and should be.
JM: .. . and . .. absolutely
M: Yeah.
JM: . .. and cannot understand why so and so is getting more
than he or she is. But they're all good, they're all
excellent as a matter of fact, and they're committed and
dedicated and they're individuals. I could name a lot of
names but I won't right now. I will in a little while. In
r espect to operating funds, in my entire stay here the
Institute never received an increase in funding from the
Legislature.
M: Oh?
JM: We received cost of living salary increases for the
employees, 3 and 5 percent salary increases, every other
year but those aren't operating funds. Those are salary
increases and I won't go into it here but I will tell you
that the legislature of the State of Texas has a wonderful
system of granting a 3 percent or 5 percent salary increase
f o r a biennium.
M: Urn .
JM: Remember now, our l egislature meets every 2 years ...
M: Yeah.
JM: And passes a budget every 2 years. And so in that
biennium there is a pay increase, but when the next biennium
budget ... biennial budget is considered that pay increase
is not part of the base that you start from so ...
MCGIFFERT
M: Oh , dear.
JM : it's a very interesting budgeting system. And so
the Institute has, never in my tenure , received a real
increase in legislative funding, and in fact was reduced
considerably
M: ~.
31
JM: over the last 4 years. Now separate from that, the
Institute did receive considerable ... construction ...
minor construction funding from the legislature early on,
and later from the University of Texas System. It enabled a
great deal of work to be done around here. But funding for
all the new programs and new activities that have been
generated in this building in the last 10 years, has never
been received from the state. So it all had to be self­generated;
from the store, but you know, the store doesn't
make that much money, they make a little bit; from sales of
books and audio-visual tapes and what-have-you; from rentals
from the traveling exhibits and from income from leasing the
building in the evenings and things of that nature. These
are the ways the Institute was able to operate.
M: Folklife Festival contribute anything?
JM: Folklife Festival contributed a great deal over the
years. Their contributions in the last 4 years have been
lower because their ...
M: Uh-huh.
JM: ... costs were up and their income just l eveled off.
MCGIFFERT 32
That was a reflection of the economic conditions.
M: Uh- huh.
JM: However, when I got here there was a reserve fund here
of several hundred thousand dollars, most of which had come
from Folklife Festival.
M: Oh.
JM: And that money was invested by UT System after I got
here, 120 thousand of it, and it still brings income into
the Institute from long-range investments that are made out
of UT System. And the Folklife Festival always contributed
from 15 to 35 thousand dollars a year to our operating
accounts . But usually for special new programs and what­have-
you. That's the only way I could influence the action
around here was to set aside some money, and then apply it
to the new programs, like "Teach the Teachers."
M: Yeah.
JM: Which I'll talk about later. Now, I mentioned the
construction, the minor construction money coming from UT
System primarily. I began to think about what kind of
things were done here while I was here. A great many of
which were started by Jack Maguire and Leonard Scotty. That
is, the process of asking for the money and defending it.
Jerry Kusenberger, who was Director of Physical Plant,
had a great deal to do with writing up the justifications.
All of these people were involved. Most of it actually
happened after Jack Maguire left and a lot of the requests
MCGIFFERT
were developed after he left, but it's been a continuing
thing. Look at what's happened: since 1983 we h ave a
beautiful perimeter fence, you remember that god-awful
chain-link fence that used to be around here? ...
M: Sure.
33
JM: ... Incidently, I am the one who decided on the type of
fence and its color that is around the perimeter, I probably
am not responsible for anything else around here but I am
responsible for that.
M: A good responsibility that was.
JM : We have that adobe building on the Back 40, a
tremendous teaching tool. It is it has been one of the
most marvelous things to corne along, educationally.
M: It is?
JM: Certainly! This is why we are here . To teach children
and people ...
M: I know it!
JM: ... about the cultures of the people of Texas and there
we have this wonderful adobe building, built out there In
the Back 40, where school children go in there by the
thousands every year to learn how Mexican-American people
lived in the past and still live along the Rio Grande River.
M: Oh.
JM: This is part of our responsibilty, a big part. We have
the log cabin that has just been built, incidently one of my
great disappointments was that it couldn't be done while I
MCGIFFERT 34
was here, but I did raise most of the money for it .
M: Did you? Good.
JM: But not all of it . The new schoolhouse back on the
Back 40 was accomplished while I was here, and badly needed.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: In front now, go back to 1983, in front of this
building there was a lagoon out there, there was a horrible
looking concrete ramp that went right up from near the
flags, Zachry Plaza, and wandered across in front of the
building on the other side of the lagoon, left-overs from
HemisFair '68 ...
M: (laughter)
JM: ... the place was an absolute mess.
M: Uh-huh, sure was.
JM: The lagoon is gone, the raised walk-way, and incidently
under it a storage area which we dearly miss, but that's all
gone and that whole area has been reasonably landscaped and
is far more attractive than before. The front berms are
gone.
M: Amen! (laughter)
JM: And that, incidently, was a struggl e.
M: Oh, I'll
JM: That was one of the hardest things I ever had to do.
M: Oh, I know. (laughter)
JM: And then one third of the back berm was removed and
that was important. We now have a sidewalk in from the rear
MCGIFFERT 35
parking lot and access for the handicapped onto the porch.
Children are no l onger walking up and down the driveway, and
where the traffic is turning the corner at the top of the
hill.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: That was a tremendous improvement. One of the things
I'm really proud of while I was here was the dedication of
the H.B. Zachry Plaza, in front - the Flag Plaza. Mr. Pat
was a man, of course, whom I only knew since 1983. I met
him shortly after I came here as Commander of 5th Army. But
he was a marvelous
M: Sure was .
JM: person and he has meant so much to this Institute.
M: Urn.
JM: His favorite thing, of course, was the Folklife
Festival and he kept it alive in some bad, some tough years
by furnishing heavy equipment and ...
M: Yeah.
JM: ... people, gratis, to do the technical work; such as
electricians. And he did things like transporting the log
cabin now on t he exhibit floor here from East Texas. The
man was just wonderful. And he did that despite the fact
that we belonged to the University of Texas because there
was no greater Aggie than Mr. Pat.
M: I know it.
JM: He was just a wonderful man.
MCGIFFERT 36
M: I have him on tape.
JM: Yeah. Great guy.
Now, inside the building it's important to realize that
the room we're sitting in today wasn't here in 1983.
M: Why, it wasn't?
JM: No, it was put in here in ' 84 .
M: I didn't know that .
JM:
M: I was in the basement.
JM: This entire area, the research and library area, was
built in the latter part of 1983 and '84.
M: For Pete's sake!
JM: And the area beyond the photo storage area is still
unfinished, that's what this area was.
M: Uh- huh. Oh, I didn't realize that .
JM: Also, we now work in a safer environment here, with a
fire sprinkler system in key areas of the building, almost
throughout;
M: Hm.
JM: we have carved out new office space in the basement
and on the second floor levels, and of course we did put in
the library, the photo-storage area in the library, with
humidity and temperature control protection for all of our
valuable photo collection. It was not easy to obtain.
During the construction inside the building, of course, we
discovered asbestos in the outer walls and in the walls of
MCGIFFERT
the mechanical rooms, and there are 8 of them in the
building,
M: Oh, dear.
37
JM: and this became a tremendous expense and a delay in
construction . While we removed the asbestos from the walls
of the mechanical rooms and part of the exterior walls and
walled in the rest of the ...
M: Uh-huh, I remember that.
JM: . .. asbestos, so that for most of the exterior wall,
the asbestos is covered. But that was a tremendous
achievement . Also all 226 surface screens in the dome were
replaced at a tremendous cost. They were falling apart,
literally, and we would have had to close the dome if we had
not done that. The sound and lighting systems on the
exhibit floor and dome were all upgraded at that time .
M: ~.
JM: Of course, I think one of the nicest and most effective
things we did was to construct and then dedicate the new
conference center to John and Nellie Connally.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: He was responsible, and I'm sure she helped, for this
place being here at all. And you have all that.
M: Yes, I sure have.
JM: Down on the exhibit floor, that introductory area is
taken for granted today, i t was a terrible, terrible ... it
was like cutting out an abcess tooth to get that done.
MCGIFFERT
M: Oh?
JM: Many people did not want to cover that area ... they
38
wanted to leave it free access ... which should ... which
was a good argument, but we needed an introductory area to
tell visitors who we were and why we were here.
M: Sure.
JM: Not many of them, I think, read that, but it's there
for them to look at. And we got wonderful additions on the
exhibit floor while I was here. The globe, which the Petty
family donated to the Institute, is a wonderful, wonderful
gift. The Meadows Foundation also had given us money for
that. The exhibit floor needs a major re-design of many of
its areas and the one that was completed in my tour here was
the Indian area and I am extremely proud of that.
M: It's awfully good.
JM: It was not easy, it was traumatic, as a matter of fact,
Tom Guderjan was the research associate who did the basic
work on that and most of the work on that and he was
critiqued rather extensively by his boss, Dr. Jim McNutt and
me in the process, and many others, not the l east of whom
was, David Haynes. (laughter) And everyone of those
critiques improved that thing, but they caused many delays
so that it was very slow getting done.
But that's a wonderful part of the exhibit floor and we
need to do more of that . Of course, we added the Filipino
and Hungarian exhibits while I was here and there were many,
MCGIFFERT 39
many improvements made in the Norwegian, the spinning and
weaving areas, much better for teaching children the history
of cloth and weaving and what-have-you in Texas. And the
Lebanese, German and Mexican areas were improved. All of
that, I'm very pleased, I'm very proud of that . None of
those things carne easily, believe me. And, they were good
for the Institute .
Now I haven't talked about exhibits. I remember I
asked you to get me a list of the sequence of exhibits here
M: Uh-huh.
JM: ... while I've been here and I really do appreciate the
work Laurie Gudzikowski did on this . While Jack Maguire was
here we really had some interesting exhibits because he and
the staff were innovative and fortunate in getting them,
such as the Gutenburg Bible exhibit, for example ...
M: Uh-huh, that was interesting.
JM: Very interesting. I'm not going to discuss many of
them, but after I got here, one of my favorites was Herman
Lundquist's exhibit that Patrick McGuire put on, which was a
collection of the Lundquist paintings that he gathered from
a llover Texas and beyond, I guess. And then, of course, we
had the American Cowboy exhibit which was really, at that
time, the largest exhibit the Institute had ever had.
M: Oh, was it?
JM: And it was an extensive survey of cowboys from their
MCGIFFERT
origin and was done by the American Folklife Center at the
Library of Congress.
M: Uh-huh.
40
JM: And we had it for two months in '83 and '84 and it was
it really brought the Institute a lot of publicity ...
M: Uh-huh.
JM: and we gained a lot of popularity through that.
And then we had many more, but the largest exhibit the
Institute has ever produced which was "Reach for the Sky,
Aviation in Texas." And that was from October '85 'til May
or June '86. A long time. And it covered most of the open
areas in the exhibit floor.
M: Who paid for that?
JM: That was paid for basically by Southwest Airlines .
M: Yeah.
JM: Jack and Pat Maguire, in one of her last actions here,
got Herb Kelleher to underwrite that . Of course, the
exhibit itself took place after Pat had died and after Jack
had retired. It was very difficult to put on for a number
of reasons. The designer for the aviation exhibit was Dave
Garrison, who ten or eleven months before the exhibit was
due to open announced that he was leaving. He had other
fields to plow ... he was going to try to make a living by
designing and building his own furniture; and I respected
him for that, but it left us in a hole. Fortunately, John
Davis was the Director of Research at the time, of course,
MCGIFFERT
was very close to the whole project,
M: Uh-huh.
JM: ... and he's a good designer. Incidently, John's a
very talented guy.
M: Is he?
41
JM: So John just stepped in and took over the design
function. But several months later, John announced that he
was resigning in order to go to London to write poetry.
M: (laughter) the dog!
JM: And again, I respected a man who could do that.
M: And grow carrots, he was going to grow carrots!
JM: Grow carrots and write poetry.
M: write poetry .
JM: And so, all of a sudden we were left holding the bag
again.
M: Oh, dear!.
JM: So, it was a problem. The Director of Audio-Visuals,
in the Production Division, at t hat time, was a woman named
Linda Lee.
M: Oh , yes.
JM: And Linda Lee was ... had been here for quite a while
and was very competent, administratively, and had a very
forc e ful personality, so I made her the Director of the
Aviation Exhibit.
M: You did!
JM: Yes. So Linda coordinated the Aviation Exhibit.
MCGIFFERT
M: Heavens!
JM : We were left holding the bag.
M: This is the fourth person?
JM: Well, no, John Davis was the coordinator from the
beginning and he remained the coordinator while he was
also doubling as the designer
M: Yeah, I see designer
JM: ... three or four months . And the design had
42
progressed pretty much and then the design was given to a
relatively young and relatively new designer in Production
named Jim Cosgrove, who did a superb job. He had no
experience on 3 dimensional designing. Dave Garrison had
been the real pro in 3 dimensional design for the Institute,
but Jim pulled it out of the fire and did a good job. And
Linda did an excellent job of coordinating it and we got it
off the ground and produced it. The exhibit left a l ot of
room for improvement, but the criticism that it received was
deserved, primarily because the selected topic was too
broad. There was no .. .
M: Oh .
JM: There was no way that this place could have produced a
really exciting, satisifying, aviation exhibit - history of
aviation in Texas. We don't have the room, we don't have
the facilities - you need airplane hangers, you need
M: Sure.
JM: ... you need a lot of things that we weren't able to
MCGIFFERT 43
do. I thought that the exhibit was done very well
considering the difficulties that we were put through. But
a t any rate, that took up the better part of three years in
this Institute. Just putting it on and I think that is a
point I want to make in this tape . The manner in which the
Institute produces exhibits, books or programs is slow,
laborious, frustrating, but it produces, usually, very fine
quality work.
And the reason it's so slow is because everything is
gone over, over and over and over again, I mean everything
from the initial concept, to the development of the process,
to the research, to the writing, to the editing, to the
design work, to the composition, everything is done over and
reviewed over and over again by others, and this is where
the diversity of this place comes into play . Every person
involved in programs or activities in this building looks a t
the exhibit floor or looks at our exhibitry or our books
from a different perspective. We don't have iron-clad rigid
rules about those things, not too many . But we do have an
overlapping view of why this place is here and how it should
operate.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: And it's where the views don't overlap that the
critique comes in to frustrate the research writer .. .
M: Uh-huh.
JM: ... the designer, the educational program developer,
MCGIFFERT 44
who see it all from different perspectives. And in most
cases despite the frustration and the slowness and what­have-
you, this has paid off in my view, although I'm sure
there are people here in the building who'd disagree with
me.
M: (laughter) .... crazy ....
JM: Well, let me think, what else will I talk about? I've
said that the place wouldn't be here without the Alliance.
I really mean that. You really have to credit Jack and Pat
Maguire for that. I know there was an initial feeling
against them.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: Bringing volunteers in with the staff thinking, oh, I'm
gonna lose my job. The manner in which they implemented
that was excellent and the program has always ... well,
continued to grow til it reached the level where it had to
be and has remained popular enough to maintain new
volunteers.
The training is not superb but it's adequate. If
there's a short-coming in that program, it's a lack of
supervision of the docents on the floor, but it's very
difficult to supervise a volunteer docent. And I think most
docents ... most docents maintain excellent quality or near
excellent quality because of their pride. They feel like
they don't want to be out there unless they know what they
are talking about. Although I must say sometimes I've
MCGIFFERT 45
walked around the exhibit floor and listened to docents say
things that turned my stomach.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: But usually they're good. But the point here is that
the Institute could not have afforded the things that they
have done without the wonderful, wonderful volunteer staff .
From working in the administrative offices, this office
[O.H), the Development office, the Library, throughout the
building, at the store, the store could not operate without
them . .. without docents.
M: It's known in San Antonio as the best volunteer program
by all odds.
JM: Yes, it is. Give accolades to its leader. She has
really done a marvelous job.
M: assistant ...
JM: and of course I'm talking about the wonderful lady
I always call "Wisky, " Sally Wiskemann. And Beverly Hidy
is just a wonderful person down there ...
M: ... such wonderful people ... just so good with people
JM: well, they both are and they've just done well. I
need to talk about the Texas Folklife Festival.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: There is nothing that this Institute has ... does or
has ever done ... that has given it more publicity and made
it known to more p eople than the Texas Folklife Festival.
MCGIFFERT 46
M: Uh-huh.
JM: I've already talked about O.T. Baker and Claudia Ball
who got it going, and Claudia expanded it and taught JoAnn
Andera everything she knows about or knew about it when she
started. But today JoAnn Andera in terms of accomplishment
would make Claudia Ball look like a rank amateur, 'cause she
has stayed with it for so many years and continued to
improve professionally. She is well known throughout the
world in the International Festival Organization and is
respected throughout the United States. And the Texas
Folklife Festival is indeed something for the Institute to
be proud of. And believe me, it is difficult to keep it
going. When you have something that operates totally with
volunteers, you're talking 10 to 20,000 volunteers ...
M: Oh, I know.
JM: 20,000 volunteers. It's just staggering that
they've been able to keep it going, particularlly the
Folklife Festival staff, Diana Smith, a wonderful person
M: Uh-huh.
JM: and Debbie Salas has been there for years ... the
three of them are known and loved around the state and it
just is impossible to measure their value to the Institute.
I haven't talked about the Production Division. It is
probably the most overlooked division in the building.
M: Really?
JM: And you couldn't produce an exhibit if you didn't have
MCGIFFERT 47
it, 'cause we can ' t afford to pay somebody to do that .
M: No .
JM: Just think about that . We couldn't publish a book, we
couldn't possibly afford to hire outside editors or
typesetters and do the things that go on in that Production
Division. The si l kscreening alone would break us if they
had to pay commercially for it.
M: Oh, would it? Oh, really.
JM : Of course. And the photo laboratory and the photo work
that has been done here consistently throughout the years
has been of real fine quality. And that is one of the
things that people never talk about that makes this place
truly unique.
M: ~ .
JM: We do everything in-house. There are some exceptions
to that, but very , very few. Now, one of the things that
the University thought they could save money on was having
some of our production work done out at UTSA, when we were
first aligned and I was abl e to convince them that that
would not be the case.
M: Oh?
JM: We need to have our production done in-house. It's
just got to be done that way.
M: I didn't realize it was that important. I never gave
it a thought.
JM: It wouldn't be here if it weren ' t that important.
MCGIFFERT
M: Really?
JM: We would have gotten rid of it years ago.
M: Well, I'll be darned.
48
JM : So that's kind of an intriguing feature of this place
that most people don't think about.
M: Well, it certainly is.
JM: You running out of tape?
M: Pretty soon.
JM: Development Board and Advisory Board. I talked about
them, but I'll tell you ... I want to get on record here,
the names of a few people .. .
M: Okay.
JM: ... I told you about how important the Development
Board has been to the life of the Institute under Jack
Maguire and under me. They haven't broken any world records
in raising money ... but through their efforts and their
giving they have kept the Institute able to produce new
programs and new activities over the years. And boy, are
they loyal! One of the things I haven't even mentioned here
- oh, gosh, how could I have left it out. For over three
years of my directorship we attempted to organize an
effective fund raising effort through an improved
development organi zation . The Development Board pretty
generally had been a social club ...
M: Yeah.
JM: ... Members had raised money when Jack or I went to
MCGIFFERT 49
them with a specific cause in the past, but as far as an
organized effort it had never taken place. So, about three
years before I left, we asked Dave Bonner, who was a member
of the Board, to chair a committee to organize this thing.
And bless his heart, he did. He worked for two years,
worked his heart out. And did a wonderful job in helping us
get organized throughout the state to be able to raise more
money.
M: When was this? Now, can you put a date on this?
JM: Well, probably it was the fall of '88. Ann
Brinkerhoff , who at that time ...
M: Never heard of her .
JM: ... at that time she was a member of the Advisory
Board, not the Development Board. Parenthetically, if
you've got enough tape here - I want to tell you a little
story.
M: It's going to run short pretty soon. Start.
JM: Jack Maguire was here. Remember when he carne here we
were subordinate to UTSA. Within the University of Texas
System, each University within that System, each separate
component, has a Development Board.
M: Oh?
JM: Okay, each one. And each College within each
University has a separate Advisory Council, okay? Now,
there are two different reasons for that, like if I'm the
Dean of the Business College at UT-Austin, I have different
MCGIFFERT 50
requirements for advice and counsel and fund raising than
the guy in the College of Liberal Arts. So, that's the way
Universities raise money. They have a Development Board at
the University level and each College within it has an
Advisory Council. And here we were, when Jack got here, we
were a subordinate to UTSA, just like ...
END OF SIDE 2, TAPE I, ABOUT 35 MINUTES.
TAPE II, SIDE 1.
M: OK.
JM: So when Jack Maguire got here and we were subordinate
to UTSA, he organized an Advisory Council (just like the
colleges that the University had) to be his development
effort; his Board if you will. And that's while he was
subordinate to UTSA . He had an Advisory Council and he had
a pretty good one going there. But when he became a
separate component, all of a sudden he was authorized a
Development Board, not an Advisory Council.
M: M.
JM: Now, for some reason Jack decided he would keep the
Advisory Council. I should also explain that both Advisory
Council's and Development Board's memberships had to be
approved by the Board of Regents each for three year tours.
Each year they would approve new members for Development
Boards and Advisory Councils throughout the System. And so
Jack's Advisory Council down here had been approved by the
Board of Regents. Okay? Now, when he became a separate
MCGIFFERT
component he was authorized a Development Board .
M: A Development Board.
JM: Now for some reason he kept the Advisory Council and
got new volunteers to come into his Development Board.
M: Uh- huh.
51
JM: And the Regents had to approve the Development Board .
Jack always used to send his Advisory Council nominees up to
UT System for approval too, but the Board of Regents didn't
approve them, they just approved the Development Board,
because we weren't authorized an Advisory Council.
And it was after I got here when somebody at UT System
called and made the point that lIyou know, you're not
authorized an Advisory Council, you ought to . .. either get
rid of it or call it something else." So we changed the
name to an "Advisory Board . " And we kept it.
M: (laughter)
JM: And I had the unsavory job, when I became the Executive
Director, to inform the Advisory Board members that they
were not Regentally appointed . They didn't know that.
M: Oh, dear.
JM: Many of them didn't know it, but as it turned out, they
didn't care. So we had an Advisory Board and a Development
Board . Now I kept that organization structure. My
Development Officer, Hugh Moore, advised me several times to
get rid of the Advisory Board or amal gamate it with the
Development Board.
MCGIFFERT
M: Oh?
52
JM: But I really didn't want to do that, 'cause there were
some people on the Advisory Board that were there for
advice, they didn't have a lot money or ability to raise
money, but they knew history of Texas and they knew other
things. So I didn't do that. Incidently, subsequent to my
departure I understand those two boards have been melded
together.
M: Have they?
JM: Which is much simpler administratively.
M: I'm sure .
JM: But getting back to people. I talked about Dave Bonner
managing or coordinating the new development effort and he
was assisted by Ann Brinkerhoff. Ann had been on the
Advisory Board. Her husband, Bob, was one of our dearest
friends . And Bob served as Chairman of the Development
Board twice. And as a matter of fact, died while he was
Chairman of the Development Board, several years ago.
And of course, as soon as that happened I appointed Ann
to the Development Board because they are really good
friends of the Institute. And we missed Bob Brinkerhoff.
He did a lot of work for the Institute and we loved him
dearly. J.P. Bryan in Houston took on the Chairmanship of
the Development Board for two terms and also was extremely
helpful to us. Bob Buschman was, and I think still is the
Chairman of the Development Board. He is a San Antonian -and
MCGIFFERT 53
a Houstonian and has been very helpful to us. When I became
Executive Director, the Chairman of the Development Board
was Reagan Houston III, one of the most wonderful men I knew
in San Antonio and, of course, he just died ...
M: I know, I know.
JM: ... but he was a good, good friend and he was just
willing to do anything for us. When he died, David Witts in
Dallas became the Chairman of the Board and he was the
Chairman during those difficult days when we were being
considered for re-alignment to UTSA. And David did a
wonderful job in helping me argue with the Vice-Chancellor
and Chancellor against the action. He's a lawyer and he did
it very well and in a balanced way . Of course, the decision
was made against us, but David was a big help. And David
was a good friend.
M: What do you mean by, "It was made against us."?
JM: Well, we were arguing against being aligned with UTSA.
The Board of Regents ruled that we would be.
M: I see, okay. Yeah.
JM: And I could go on and on and on. Bill Wright up in
Abilene, Texas, has been a tremendous support for this
Institute and he's influential throughout the humanities
field and he's a master photographer. He knows the history
of photography, he's been a big help to Dr . McNutt in many,
many ways and he's a wonderful guy. And I could go on and
on. But these people '" there's just no way that we could
MCGIFFERT 54
continue to operate without their assistance .
And Governor and Mrs. Connally agreed to be carried as
Emeritus members of the Board, and they've never
participated since then, nor did I expect them to, but it
was very good to have their names. And people like Lynn
Ashby. He's an editor of the Houston Post, has been on our
Advisory Board for a number of years and .. ... .... used to
come to our meetings and would write editorials in the
Houston Post about the Institute and they were always great.
The Doyles in Beaumont who have been instrumental in keeping
t he Folklife Festival alive. He's run the Schoolhouse
Program ...
M: Oh, I've got him on tape, too!
JM: wonderful, wonderful they're both wonderful
people. Jim and Dorothy Doyle in Fredericksburg, no
relation, have come through on many occasions to support us
with funding and physical support. I could go on for hours
about the Development Board, it is just absolutely essential
that that Board exist.
As is the essentiality of keeping an active steering
committee for the Texas Folklife Festival. I should have
mentioned when I was talking about that, the need for civic
support of that function which JoAnn, and Claudia before
her, did accomplish through the Folklife Festival Steering
Committee where you have people like Mary Pat Stumberg who
has been on it for years and years and years and still are
MCGIFFERT 55
active. Jack Newman who at that time was with the San
Antonio Light, was always a very active supporter. I go
down the list of people on that Steering Committee just two
... one year ago and I see people like Claudia Ball, she's
never given up.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: Carol Canty here in San Antonio, very effective, Karen
Conley, the legislator, who used to work here
M: Yeah, she did in Development, uh-huh.
JM: ... Ron Darner, the Director of City Parks and
Recreation .. .
M: Uh-huh.
JM: ... in San Antonio, Ron Gossen, he's just done a
tremendous amount of work for us. Bob Price, the Executive
Vice-President of UT-Health Science Center. He and his
wife, incidently, have really helped us over the years. Pam
Kirkpatrick is on it, the wife of Sam, the President of
UTSA. Patsy Steves. My goodness, Patsy Steves, Marshall
Steves' wife, has been a member, I think since the very
beginning and stays active ...
M: Good.
JM: ... along with Mary Pat Sturnberg . Janice Ricks ...
Betty Lang ... Betty Lang was a member of the Scottish
organization here in town, has just been tremendously active
in the Folklife Festival . All these people mean tremendous
things to the staff here. Most of the staff don't know they
MCGIFFERT
exist.
M: No, I was just thinking .. .
JM: But without them we just ... we wouldn't be able to
operate.
M: It is awfully good to have this on tape, you know it?
JM : Now, let me talk about some people here in this
Institute, okay?
M: Okay.
56
JM: I've mentioned a lot of the people that I've leaned on
in the early years, Leonard Scotty; Bob Brodeur; the
Personnel Officer, Cheryl Westerberg . No functioning
organization can grow unless the administration and the
business and the people-caring part is in good hands and is
in good shape. And so I spent a lot of time with them when
I was here . And all of them reacted extremely well in my
view. The people in the Business Office are frequently
criticized, within the staff, for various and sundry
reasons, sometimes deservedly, but just did a magnificent
job. They're undermanned, always overworked, bound by
inflexible state laws and regulations ...
M: Uh-huh.
JM: ... from the Regents and what-have-you, have just done
a wonderful job over the years. And need to be mentioned.
The same can be said, in my opinion, about Physical Plant.
One of the most underrated people in this building was Jerry
Kusenberger. Jerry was not held in great esteem by Jack
MCGIFFERT
Maguire .. .
M: Oh?
JM: for some very good reasons.
M: Uh-huh .
57
JM: Jerry felt always very defensive in those days. I made
it c l ear to him and to his then boss, Leonard Scotty, when I
became Executive Director that the slate was clean and I
expected him to do his job and do it to the best of his
ability and he always did that. And he was a man who was
not trained for that job. He was in Production , and was
moved over there because he showed some capability.
M: ~.
JM: And he learned the job and he did it very well. All of
these people who have been around a l ong time, deserve a lot
of credit ; a lot of credit. Leo Benavidez, who is in charge
of the custodial staff does a good job, he really does . And
the mechanics, what we call the mechanics here, the people
who take care of the heating and cooling systems and the
e l ectrical system and what-have-you, have always gone way
beyond what you would expect from them. And also the
grounds - keepers. Talk about an under-paid bunch of people.
M: Uh-huh .
JM: They just work their hearts out, constantly. And it ' s
hard work. Very hard work, and they've done a good job.
In respect to who I depended on most in my job - I
depended upon really three people in terms of . .. well, four
MCGIFFERT 58
people, in terms of what goes on in the building, the
programs. I depended on Jim McNutt after John Davis left.
Jim McNutt became the Director of Research. He was a young
phD without too much experience, who was interested in
learning the business as an administrator as well and was
very dedicated to what the Institute meant. And he's a very
smart, bright guy and I worked with him on almost a daily
basis. It was very, very important that he understand where
I carne from and what I desired and how I operated and that I
understood his talents and his abilities and I think we
established that.
His counterpart on the other side was Bonnie Truax, who
was my other l eaning post. She wasn't a crutch, neither one
of them were, but I depended upon both of them because they
headed the two departments that produced everything around
here, almost everything, not quite.
M: Now Bonnie was Educational?
JM: Bonnie was Director of Educational Developments and had
been from the very start of that department. And Bonnie was
an accomplished educator and librarian before she carne here.
She started as a docent. She was respected throughout the
state in educational circles. She was innovative. She was
hard-nosed , she knew what teachers needed and she worked
hard to give them what they needed. And the best example of
the success of that effort is the incredible Outreach
Program that goes out of this building, even as we speak.
MCGIFFERT 59
M: Uh-huh.
JM: And with Sandra Merrifield, who is another person in
this building who deserves so much credit that she never
receives, she is just an absolutely marvelous person.
Single-handedly she has raised the Outreach Program with
volunteers and staff to the point where for most of the l ast
few years the number of children that our Outreach people
have visited has exceeded the number who have visited the
building.
M: Really?
JM: Yes. It's just absolutely astounding and she develops
the material in a lot of cases that they use. Well, that
was under Bonnie. Bonnie ' s major achievement and I consider
mine in the educational area, was the Teach the Teachers
Program.
M: Uh-huh. That's a nice one.
JM: It was, and is badly needed, it is superbly done and it
has never been criticized by anyone who has been there. And
it gives teachers what they need.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: And it does it in a very, very fine way. So those are
two of the people that I really depended upon. I haven't
mentioned here, but when we reorganized and went under UTSA,
Leonard Scotty had to leave the building, which I really
hated. That was sort of a mandatory thing.
M: Why did he have to leave?
MCGIFFERT 60
JM: Financially. I didn't have the money to keep him and I
had to get rid of either him or Bob Brodeur and it was
obvious that Bob Brodeur would have longer staying power
than Scotty who was older and getting close to retirement .
But at any rate after that I leaned on Bob Brodeur for the
business end of the job. He did a lot more than that. Bob
Brodeur is the man who is responsible for the computer
system here.
M: Is he?
JM: Yes. After Scotty left he was the point man on the
computer computerization.
M: But you pushed it?
JM: I pushed it. I supervised it, I approved everything
they were doing, but these two guys, neither of whom had any
training in computers, just did a marvelous job . Of course,
now Bob belongs to UTSA instead of us, I guess.
M: Yes , I understand. (laughter)
JM : The other two people that I leaned on were, JoAnn
Andera, since the Folklife Festival is such a huge part of
our life, and also she controls the leasing of the building.
M: Oh?
JM: It's all done out of her office. And they handle the
contracting with everybody who comes in here three or four
times a week to use the building and they're responsible for
coordinating the efforts of the whole staff to protect the
exhibit floor and to clean up and to maintain the quality of
MCGIFFERT 61
the floor while all of this is going on. It's a hell of a
job! So that, plus the Folklife Festival and special events
was a big time consumer and I leaned a lot on her.
And then the other one is David Haynes, of course,
since as I indicated, production is the key. Probably the
biggest complaint when I got here from the staff was that
"we just can't get anything done in Production . "
M: It still goes on .
JM: Well, it goes on, but it doesn't go on . . . it doesn't
go on like it used to, believe me.
M: Oh? (laughter)
JM: But the reason was, basically , and still is if it is
still going on, that he hasn't got anywhere near enough
people down there and this entire staff is shoving work at
him constantly .
M: Yeah.
JM: And as I indicated one of the things that I did was
establish a prioritization system which took the load off of
his back as to which he was going to do first .
M: First, yeah.
JM : And we never got compl etely away from that because he
was still ....... but basically the major projects were
getting done. And .. .
M: What about the outside work that has corne in here?
JM: He has to take outside work or he would not be able to
keep the people he has.
MCGIFFERT 62
M: That's what I understand . .... got the money!
JM: probably 40% of his staff is subsidized by outside work
he takes in ...
M: 40%
JM: Maybe, might be 30%. It's a big amount. I want to say
a few words about his division down there. He has the
design staff down there and he supervises that. That used
to be a department; it isn 't anymore.
M: Oh, it isn't?
JM: Well it hasn't been for years. We ... gosh , the last
director of the Design Department must have left here 8, 9
years ago. So David has been doing that . Then he has the
photo labs and the silkscreen and fabrication.
Once again, those people aren't paid very well.
There's just been a series of fine people down there over
the years . They've just done marvelous cabinet making, I
mean real cabinet making. They just do
M: Oh?
JM: Well, just look at all the stuff on the floor. They
just did magnificant work.
M: Do they? Uh-huh.
JM: They really do.
M: Another person down there that I have worked with very
well is Sandy Carr, on editing.
JM: Well, yeah. I was going to get around to Sandy. Let's
talk about her now. She came in here, according to Jack
MCGIFFERT
Maguire, she applied for the job as his secretary.
M: Oh.
JM: And he told me he did not hire her because she was
over-qualified.
M: Oh.
63
JM: She's a well educated woman and she's got a vast amount
of experience allover the world, before she carne here.
M: Speaks Arabic,
JM: She then became the editor, the only editor, I think we
ever had here.
M: Oh?
JM: Certainly the only editor since I've been here. She is
stable, trustworthy, bright, insistent on quality ...
M: Uh-huh.
JM: ... and knows the styles that we use and insists on
them. She is a very, very effective editor. I never liked
to see anything go out of the building t hat she had no t
reviewed. Some of the things that went out from marketing
and areas like that had to go out 'cause she couldn't handle
editing everything but ... she's an excellent, excellent
person.
Dave Garrison is too. Dave Garrison is now a
department head but he still does a lot of his own work. He
runs the fabrication department ...
M: Oh, yeah.
JM: which has the cabinet makers and the silkscreeners
MCGIFFERT 64
and the assembly people and what-have-you. So you have a
terrific bunch of people down there.
And finally down in production you've got the audio­visual
department which is a two-person department, always
has been, frequently overlooked. And that department,
particularly Leslie Burns, who is the director, has done a
gigantic amount of work over the last four years. She has
brought us in to the TV •.. the video era with style, with
quality. She has produced a number of videos in conjuction
with research and UTSA, some of the faculty out there, and
her work is excellent.
M: Is it?
JM: She's just been tremendous. She's only the third .
director of that department.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: David Haynes was the first and then Linda Lee came in .
M: Yeah.
JM: And Linda was very good, she was good in the still ...
side-show type of audio-visual. But no, I take it back,
Leslie is the fourth, because there was another woman who
was there who was also quite talented and stayed a short
time and she was a black lady.
M: Oh, that's right, I forgot.
JM: And she went ... her husband was in the Air Force, he
was a doctor in the Air Force and they moved to Austin or
San Marcos or something.
MCGIFFERT
M: Uh-huh.
JM: At any rate that's the Institute now that I wanted to
talk about. You've had more than you bargained for, lady.
M: No. I'm just tickled to pieces.
65
JM: I don't know where the Institute is today. As you know
I've been away for 15 months and I'm staying away.
Primarily, I think because I was so dead-set against the
organizational structure that took place after I left. It
wasn't a disagreeable departure that I had but I was ... I
was adamant in disagreeing with Dr. Kirkpatrick that
splitting, spreading the responsibilities down here would
work and I honestly pray that it will work. And I think
that it will because .. . .
M: You think it will?
JM: I think it will because of the Institute.
M: They're moving away from us, that's a great ....
JM: Well, it will because the Institute's got staying
power. The people I've been trying to talk about for the
last hour and a half will keep i t alive. The people here
are really dedicated .
M: Uh-huh.
JM: They're gonna slosh on through, regardless of the
problems. There're many problems always down here, there's
always been frustrations.
M: Always when you have people.
JM: And they'll keep i t going.
MCGIFFERT
M: (laughter)
JM: And I will be watching. Incidently, I want to
emphasize that I don't want to corne across as bad-mouthing
UTSA or Sam Kirkpatrick. Sam Kirkpatrick understands the
Institute very well and he's very supportive of it. His
wife is very supportive of what we do. He sincerely
believes, and he may be right, that the organizational
stucture he has developed will work, will permit a better
intercourse or interchange between the University and the
Institute, certainly that has improved over the last 5
years, 6 years. He is bright, intelligent and because he
understands the Institute he's not going to do anything
that's gonna destroy it, believe me. And in fact he has
done a great deal to help it, financially and otherwise .
He's a supportive guy. And there're a lot of people out
there on his staff who are supportive too.
M: Are there?
66
JM: So, I don't want ... I just think it would have been
neater to leave it like it was but you know, he's not paid
to ... let me put it this way ... his report card isn't
going to be graded on whe ther or not the Institute raises or
lowers its quality. His report card is being graded on
whether he continues in his path to developing a real first
class university out there.
M:
JM: And I think he knows how to do that.
MCGIFFERT 67
M: Do you?
JM: Oh, yeah . And so, we have gained . . . we have always
b enefited ... we, the Institute ... from being a part of the
University of Texas System.
M: You think that's true. Okay.
JM: Oh, my goodness, yes.
M: Okay, we couldn't stand alone?
JM: Yeah, I think this place would have folded in 1970 ...
M: '70. Urn.
JM: ... if the Legislature had not placed it under the
University of Texas System in that session.
M: Do you remember the session of legislature when they
said "we're not going to give them any money, we've got all
the museums in this country ... in this state, that we
need ...
JM: No, I wasn't here.
M: You remember, oh, gee, ( laughter) ... scared
everybody.
JM: But I remembered that it happened because I'd been told
that. But you know, something I didn't mention and I will
when I was arguing against being aligned with UTSA ...
M: Uh- huh.
JM: ... one of the issues that came up in the arguments and
the discussions with the Regents was the fact that the
governor at that time, Republican governor, had indicated
that he did not support State University ... museums.
MCGIFFERT 68
M: Uh-huh.
JM: And that he intended to line-item veto those activities
from the budget next time around.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: And there was a positive, professional feeling at the
University System and in the mind of the Chancellor, who
I've not discussed at all, but who deserves reams of
discussion, he's been a marvelous chancellor. Of course,
there's a new chancellor at the University System now. But
Dr. Mark, Hans Mark, was a great friend of the Institute,
and always extremely helpful. But they believed that the
Institute would stand a much better chance of continuing its
existence, its funding from the state, if it was part of a
university
M: Ah.
JM: ... rather than standing out alone like that as a
museum.
M: Yeah, that make sense, uh, that makes sense.
JM: Now, in the next legislative session, which must have
been the following year, the governor did announce that he
would line-item veto University museums. One of our State
Senators here, Cyndi Krier, who has also been extremely
supportive of the University and the Institute, and is now
·..T lAd t"i t..:
County C-ondtti.s .srorter here in Bexar County, a good friend of
the Institute, always has a fund-raising party during the
Folklife Festival ...
MCGIFFERT 69
M: Uh-huh.
JM: ... and buys hundreds of tickets to the Festival and
brings all of her party-goers over here, and is supportive
in other ways, she told me that she thought that it would be
better if the Institute were completely subsumed within the
budget of the UTSA. At that time when we were first
aligned, we kept our identity in their budget. In other
words, we were a separate line item in the UTSA budget,
which said, "Institute of Texan Cultures."
M: Oh.
JM: So our money was actually appropriated by the
Legislature to us, but just as a part of the UTSA budget.
Cyndi told me that she thought it would be best if we were
. .. if that line item were deleted and we just were buried
in the budget.
M: Oh?
JM: I argued with Cyndi, in a friendly way . I told her I
disagreed. I thought the Institute should retain its line
item ... identification. She went to the Chancellor in
Austin and he agreed with her. And she in Budget Committee,
in the Senate, took the action to remove the Institute, as a
line item in the UTSA budget, and just buried the money in
there. So we weren't separately identified in there . The
money remained, but there
M: You had total access to it?
JM: separate identification. Yes, but separate
MCGIFFERT
identification.
M: Oh, okay.
70
JM: And I worried that someday money would begin to dribble
away.
M: Yeah.
JM: And indeed, it might.
M: Sure.
JM: It hasn't up to this point, at least as far as I know.
At any rate, it turned out Cyndi was right, and the
University was right. Had we been separate
M: Oh.
JM: .. . clearly, the second year from then, let's see, we
were realigned in '76, so it must have been in '77, probably
in 1979, we would not have received any State funds,
M: Good heavens!
JM: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, this is
'90 ... I'm talking about '87, '88, probably 1989, we
probably would have been without funds from the State had we
either been separate or if we had still remained a line
item . Because the Governor, in fact, deleted all funding
from a number of University museums in the second year of
the biennium .
M: Really?
JM: Uh-huh. So we were saved by people in Austin who knew
more about this than I did and also by Cyndi Krier.
M: Oh, great. I didn't realize that. On the face of it,
MCGIFFERT
it looked like i t should be kept separate.
JM: Yeah. It would have been neater, more comfortable .
M: Sure . Absolutely.
71
JM : Had more status and all that, but all in all though,
being at the Institute was a marvelous chapter in my life, 8
years . After spending 38 years in an entirely different
profession it gave me more benefit than I could ever give
it . It was a tremendous experience, and permitted me to
remain active in the community and in the state while still
really getting to know another community that I had never
known before.
M: Uh-huh.
JM: Which was represented by the peopl e who work here, t he
volunteers and the Development Board people, and everything
like that.
M: Uh-huh .
JM: So it was a great, great experience for me and I t hank
you for spending these hours with me.
M: Well, it's been a pure delight and what I want to say,
that you have left a hole here . People still speak of you
with respect and wish you were still here. You do have a
wonderful way with people.
JM : Well, I miss 'ern!
JM: Well, one thing I didn't even mention was my experience
with the 20-year celebration of HemisFair was when we
dedicated the H.B.Zachary Plaza . I meant to mention that
MCGIFFERT 72
because I was on that committee. I didn't know much about
HemisFair. All I knew about was the 20-year celebration of
it and was put on that committee and I really thoroughly
enjoyed that. Of course, I knew Jack Newman very well, and
M: I did too. Jack was a good friend of mine. I liked
him. I miss him.
JM: Jack used to work for my father. For years and years .
M: Did he really?
JM: And they were very, very close friends too.
M: I've known him for years and years and years. Well, I
do thank you. This was needed. I didn't have enough sense
to know it.
JM: well, you ought to get Jack down here, if you possibly
could.
M: I will, but thanks so much ...
JM: You're very welcome.
M: ... for taking the time and thought and memories.
JM: Well, if you ever get ... ever get ... .
END.
TAPE II, SIDE 1. ABOUT .. MINUTES.
~~U:iVj;;;7it~te
"l ~ofTexa~f~~res p.o. Box 1226 • San Antonio, Texas 78294 • (512) 226-7651
GrOHN R. MCGIFF~
Lieutenant General, U. S. Army, Retired
Executive Director, Institute of Texan Cultures
Vice President for Downtown operations, UTSA
March, 1991
John R. McGiffert was born August 5, 1926 at Jefferson Barracks,
Missouri. He attended the Virginia Military Institute before
entering the Army in 1945. '\_
He served more than 37 years in the Army, attaining the rank of
lieutenant general in April 1977. He graduated from Army schools
at every level from Officer Candidate School to the National War
college, and served on the faculties of the Field Artillery School
and the National War College.
He was Director of the Army Staff in the Pentagon from 1977 to
1980, and retired on January 31, 19JD, after serving as Commanding
General of Fifth united States Army at Fort Sam Houston, Texas.
His decorations include two Distinguished Service Medals, the
Silver Star, two Distinguished Flying Crosses, the Bronze Star and
eight Air Medals.
General McGiffert was appointed Administrator of The University of
Texas Institute of Texan Cultures at San Antonio -rii- Xpril1983,
Interim Executive Director in August 1985, Executive Directora~n
July 1987. In September 1989, he was appointed to the additional
position- of Vice President for Downtown Operations, University of
Texas at San Antonio.
He is an Advisory Director of the Fort Sam Houston Branch of NCNB
Texas, and a trustee of the Southwest Research I nstitute and the
Ecumenical Center for Religion and Health. He is a member of the
Greater San Antonio Chamber of Commerce, the San Antonio Rotary
Club, the USO Counci l of Metropolitan San Antonio, and C hris t
Episcopal Church. He a lso serves on two State Commissions: t helnd
:ian Antonio Road Preservation COlJllUission, and the Clff-istopher
C-o-lu-m.b us Quincentenary Texas Jubilee Commission. /
General McGiffert received a Bachelor of Arts~egree from the
University of Maryland and a Master of Science degree in Interna­tional
Affairs from George Washington University _~~ , '7
He and his wife Pat have four children and five grandchildren.
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