THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: George Gladstone White - English Texan
INTERVIEW WITH: Jeanne McNabb
DATE: 12 January 1998
PLACE: Austin, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Diane Gray
G: This is Diane Gray. Today is Monday, January 12, 1998. The time is 11:02 a.m. I'm in Austin, Texas, and here to interview Jeanne W. McNabb, J-e-a-n-n-e W. M-c-N-a-b-b, regarding the history of her father, a native-born Englishman who immigrated to Texas.
M: Grandfather.
G: Grandfather, excuse me. Who immigrated to Texas, Mr. George Gladstone White, G-l-a-d-s-t-o-n-e. Mr. Gladstone White, George Gladstone White, came from Texas, excuse me, came from England, settled in Texas, raised a family here. And I will now ask some questions of Mrs. McNabb.
Jeanne, tell about his birth and death dates, would you please?
M: He was born in London in - 12 July 1866. His parents are...are you interested in their names?
G: Sure.
M: Edward White, and of all the Edward Whites in this
line, he's the only one that carried the name of Edward White Junior. His mother's name was Matilda Cordel Surrey, S-u-r-r-e-y. George Gladstone White died August 7, 1947, inJeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 2
M: Burnet, Texas. He's buried in Liberty Hill, Texas.
G: Do you know what the cause of his death was?
M: Uh, no. I've got it written down somewhere, but...
G: Your grandfather, Edward White, excuse me, George White, when he came from England was quite a young lad. Would you explain the story of his voyage here?
G: Well, I've gotten conflicting times, like dates. Well, we know when he came over here so, could figure out the...how old he was - sixteen or seventeen and a half. Let's see, he left London on June 28, 1883; so he was seventeen, right?
G: Okay.
M: Arrived in New York, July 11, 1883, and he had a ticket directly from London, England, to Liberty Hill, Texas. And that's been the big mystery in the family all my life, is knowing why he came directly. I've made some research into the J. Landy Poole family that he lived with when he first came here, but I can't find any family connections between the White's and the Poole's. I found out that the Poole family came from North or South Carolina in the 1800s, so they couldn't have lived on the same street or anything. There must have been a further back relationship – just don't know. But he landed at Liberty Hill. Well, I
M: theorize that he must have taken the stagecoach from wherever the train dropped him off - probably here in Austin. There again, it's a guess. But the stagecoach stopJeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 3 is still in the area above the Hill, and it's been commercialized into a tourist trap now. But it’s just right across the street, right across the road from the cemetery where he's buried. And then the house where he first lived is just about a half a block from the cemetery. So he had a very small circle.
G: What did he do upon his arrival, as far as making a living and taking care of himself? He was just a young lad.
M: Right. I think he must have just done handyman chores and farm work for the Pooles. And then whenever he had this agreement in 1887...well now first though, he was...worked as a handyman, or a hand, on farms in Taylor and Granger. And I've got some letters that he has written to my grandmother telling about, you know, plowing this and just general farm work that he did. But then in 1887, he and William Scheyli, S-c-h-e-y-l-i, had an agreement that started the 1st of October 1887. And it's about a five... four or five paragraph agreement, and George was to learn the work of carpenter's trade - quote - "diligently and faithfully and to conduct himself in a gentleman-like manner." He was paid a $125 the first year, and a $150
dollars the second year. And in addition to this, he had
M: his clothes washed and a comfortable home and board. This was witnessed and is on file in Georgetown, in the
Williamson County Courthouse. A friend of my dad's was researching genealogy in the courthouse and found a copy of Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 4 it and thought he'd be interested in it. And he was. After he finished his apprenticeship with Mr. Scheyli, somewhere - let me see - that would have been about 1889, he started purchasing his own farmland, which was close to Gabriel Mills where my grandmother had been reared.
G: Spell Gabriel Mills, please.
M: G-a-b-r-i-e-l. And that's in western - well, no, it's kind of north central Williamson County. I've got a map that I can show you later on. Okay.
G: He was a single man purchasing the farmland?
M: Right. Well, no, wait a minute! I don't know when he might have purchased his first farm there near Gabriel Mills. It's possible that he didn't; he just rented farmland there. The first purchase was what they called "the Briggs place." And I thought it was because it was close to the city of Briggs, but it wasn't; the name of the man that they bought it from was Briggs. His name was Henry D. Briggs, and let me find that date that he bought it - oh, yeah, 11 August 1891, he purchased two hundred acres of land near Green's Corner in Williamson County. He paid $2500 down, five $100 notes, one due each year at 8% interest.
M: then in 1906, they bought the Fairview stock farm and ranch.
G: Who are they?
M: George. George and Agnes.
G: Okay. So George has gotten married?Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 5 M: Oh, yes. He married 21 December 1890.
G: Okay. So they - he and his wife...
M: Then bought the Fairview stock farm and ranch in Burnet County in 1906. There was an old two-story frame house there, and they tore that down and rebuilt within the next year. My dad was four years old when he moved there. He tells about going up...running up the stairs and throwing open a door and there was nothing out there - not even a balcony or anything, just didn't lead anywhere! He also tells a funny story about looking down to the neighbor’s place and seeing prairie dog town - just bunches of little prairie dogs.
G: On the property?
M: On the neighbor's property, yeah.
G: Back up a little bit and talk about his marriage and his wife.
M: Oh. Agnes Isabella Dunlop was a young girl that had been born and raised right there in western Williamson County. Her...one line of her parents were German, the rest were Scottish. I guess most or three-fourths of her lineage
M: would be considered Scottish. In fact my third cousin and I have been over to Glasgow and Paisley where she was...where her parents came from. It's also where our great-great grandparents were married. That was a thrill. Anyhow, Agnes Isabella was very shy and inexperienced and just had never been too far out of Williamson County. And Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 6 whenever I read some of the letters that my grandfather wrote to her during their courtship, while he was working on these farms in Granger and Taylor and Georgetown area, these letters reflect her reticence to become involved, you know. She just was chastising him for calling her "dear." And she wanted him to just call her "friend." [Laughter] So you wonder how their romance ever progressed.
G: When they married, then, it was shortly after that that they purchase Fairview?
M: No, 1906. It was the Briggs place they first purchased.
G: Oh, no, no. They first purchased the Briggs place.
M: Yeah.
G: Thank you. And lived there until...?
M: 1906.
G: 1906. At that time they bought Fairview. Had they had any children by then?
M: Yes. They had the two girls, born right there in the Gabriel Mills area. And then I think my dad was born on the M: Briggs place.
G: And your father's name?
M: Edward. That's all - Edward White. That was in
tradition, for generations it had been only Edward White - no middle initial, no middle name.
G: First son born of the White family?
M: Right. Each generation. Since 1760, at least.Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 7 G: That goes a long way back.
M: It does.
G: Is that an English tradition, to carry a name in that fashion?
M: I don't think so. Well, of course, a lot of the first born children were named after their... There's a real progression of who each one's named for - some of them are grandfather's - I don't know exactly what. In this White family, Edward White was the first born name for each one.
G: Now with Fairview stock farm and ranch, what type of business was your grandfather running?
M: He was an active farmer on the ranch and he had, it was about eleven hundred acres. He bought a large plot at first and then just added some smaller areas afterwards, but it totaled about eleven hundred acres. He had four tenant farmers that shared - you know, crop-shared. And his...he did some of the farming himself. I guess to feed his cattle and sheep.
G: So he ran a sheep and cattle ranch as well?
M: Yeah.
G: Which was more predominant in the early years? Of the animals.
M: I'd say the sheep were.
G: Do you know anything about his ventures with sheep farming?
M: How he got into it? No. I've got journals where he's Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 8 got the marks on the ears recorded.
G: Tell a little bit about your business journals from his time.
M: These old journals would include...well, the earliest ones were back in 1890. And they show the amount of money that he paid for the groceries. In fact he has entitled one of the pages "grub." And clothing expenses and farm expenses and then income - the amount of income and where it...who gave it to him, his expenses, and they're in these old, old journals. And in his beautiful English handwriting. He had a very distinctive writing.
G: Describe a little bit about that writing. What do you see when you look at it?
M: Well, I see my grandfather! [laughter]
G: Yes.
M: It's just easy to read. It's very plain, and I noticed one of the English words that he used for "checks" - c-h-e-G: q-u-e.
So some of his spelling...
M: Yeah, is still English, yeah. He had an account with the First National Bank in Georgetown, Texas, that he...they didn't do too much with checks in those days - a lot of it was handled by cash. He even has horse shoeing accounts, what it cost to shoe the old horse named Molly, and one named Dick. It's a hog account and the sheep's account.
G: Mrs. McNabb is looking through one of those record Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 9 books right now and talking about what she sees in it.
M: Here's, for instance, is dry goods - forty cents in 1905; socks and stockings, fifty cents; suspenders, forty-five cents. And then he'll characterize some of them as Florence's hat or Agnes' dress. I was looking for one that ...oh, here's one called grub accounts. Uh, a hundred pounds of flour for $2.50; onions, potatoes and cabbages seventy-five cents; even had canned goods, though, and meal for $1.25; dried apples, sugar, vinegar. The prices are fascinating too, like a pound...well, it doesn't say how many pounds of sugar but it's a dollar. That's one thing he doesn't qualify too well is the amount. And then there's a whole page for church expenses - the parsonage improvement, Sunday school. He paid one-third of church benches for $4.60 in 1900.
G: So at his property he had a church building?
M: No, no. It's the community...this was in 1900 so that would have been when they lived on the Briggs place. They probably went back to Gabriel Mills to church, 'cause that's where my grandmother was reared. And whenever... they'd have pages for certain accounts, and then whenever that page was filled up, why, they'd just have to refer to a page further back in the back of the book.
G: He kept his own records, is what we're seeing.
M: Yeah.
G: With his handwriting.Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 10 M: Right. And you wonder - a man that works all day outdoors, physical labor, and then he comes in at night and does all this detailed little handwriting.
G: Well, I would say since he showed a penchant for being such a good businessman that he was prosperous in his life?
M: Yes. I think he had some help from his parents - or his mother at least - but he did...I can see in the account book where he repaid them.
G: Tell me about that help; what was it?
M: It was an inheritance from his father, I think. I believe. I don't have any proof on that, but that's family stories and history. But then I believe that he borrowed money from her, because I can see in the account pages where he repaid her. And he just, oh, was able to, with the tenant farmers, build his money up.
G: Did he run his ranch until he died?
M: No. I have a copy of the letter from the Department of Insurance and Banking out of Austin that stated on June 22, 1922, they were asking my grandfather to assume the presidency of the bank - The Farmer's State Bank there in Bertram, and become active in management of the bank. So from 1922 until 1929, he and my grandmother still lived out on the ranch, which is located five miles east of Bertram on Highway 243. In 1929 he and grandmother moved to Bertram and built a home there, right in downtown Bertram, and he always walked to and from the bank, every day. And one of Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 11 my fondest memories is seeing him in a wicker rocking chair on the front porch after he'd come home from work, smoking a cigar and reading the afternoon paper - or reading the paper; I guess there was only one then. Then he was president of the bank, and at some point in the '40s my father became the president of the bank and my grandfather was the chairman of the board. And then when...he was still chairman of the board when he died in 1947. That's when my father then became chairman of the board.
G: What happened to the ranch at this time? Was it still being run, although he lived in Bertram?
M: Yes. My father was the active manager of the ranch then. We still had at least three tenant farmers. And my grandfather kept a very close partnership with my dad. In M: fact they built the home together - the new home they built in 1937 was a partnership.
G: Fairview?
M: Uh-huh.
G: Tell us about that new home.
M: Right there where the old one was. We just moved out into outbuildings like the smokehouse and the garage, and the workshop. Stored our furniture, and they tore the old house - old frame, seven gables, frame house. Tore it down and built a yellow brick - no, it was a kind of orangey-yellow brick home that's still there. And it's pretty much as it was in 1937.Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 12 G: And what was your personal association with that yellow brick home?
M: Well, let me see. I was about eleven years old whenever we re-built. And my sister and I were paid by my grandfather for...a nickel a bucket for all of the rusty nails that we'd...or nails that we'd pull out of old boards, 'cause they re-used a lot of the old boards on the inside of the house. And I just shake to think about all the rusty nails that I stepped on as a kid. And my mother and my grandmother just poured kerosene oil on it - that's all you did.
G: Kerosene oil.
M: That's right. Right into that puncture wound where it M: was, and we survived without getting tetanus. It's fantastic isn't it? [laughter]
G: And what years did you spend at that house?
M: From 1937 until I went off to college in 1943. And then my mother and father and sister lived there from then on. She got married in '48.
G: So your father, George...
M: Grandfather George.
G: No, father - no, no, never mind - your family lived in the house...
M: Uh-huh.
G: And your father that was...
M: Edward.Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 13 G: Edward, excuse me, that's right, the first born son...
M: Yes.
G: So Edward lived in the yellow brick house...
M: And continued to manage the ranch.
G: So you were a ranching girl growing up?
M: Yes. I envied all the kids in town because they had friends they could run around with - afternoon odd jobs that they could get. But then, I guess, you know, I had a life that they might have envied, too.
G: The country girl life.
M: Yeah. It was wholesome. We actually lived in the Live Oak Community. And the little school was just about a half-M: a-mile from our house, I guess. But because it was a rural two-room schoolhouse, my dad always transferred us into the Bertram Independent School District, and our tuition was a whole $1.50 a month. In fact I guess my grandfather had done the same thing for his daughters and my dad, because I saw where he did pay some tuition to the school there. It was, you know, an eleven-grade school, and it was a lot of improvement over the little rural school where we lived.
G: How many years did you attend the rural school?
M: I never did.
G: Oh, you never did?
M: No, I went first grade in Bertram, and went through the eleventh year there.Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 14 G: So he transferred you immediately?
M: Uh-huh. Right. We had a lot of problems getting there sometimes - the roads weren't paved and there were some hills and mud, and sometimes you just didn't get there. But I think I started to tell you early on about my dad used to brag about all the different ways he had gone to school - by buggy and horseback and gig and motorcycle and car and just...and he said, “I walked even!” [laughter]
G: So your father, Edward...
M: Yes.
G: Went...had the rural experience also?
M: Oh, yes, all his life.
G: I'm going to ask you to try and jump back to George
M: Gladstone's life in England, about his family. Talk about his family and what his father did for a living and some of that background history. One of my most prized possessions are three documents that record the granting of freedom to my ancestors. The first Edward White, who was also the son of Edward White was granted freedom in the City of London upon completion of apprenticeship in the Basket-makers Company in - let's see - October 1782. And then his son was granted apprenticeship and membership in the Basket-makers Union in 1825. And then my grandfather's father was granted freedom, under the reign of Queen Victoria, the 24th of October 1862. And in going to the Guild Hall in London where the records of the companies are kept, the very first Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 15 Edward White, I find in the Basket-makers Registry of Freemen, during the period 1694 to 1776, shows an Edward White was apprenticed in 1731. But since there are so many Edward Whites listed in the whole country of England, it's hard to say that this one back in 1731 was mine. So the ones that I do have the freedom certificates on, I could feel sure are my ancestors.
G: What does the term "freedom" refer to? Freedom from what?
M: I don't know. It's...well, they had to be a
M: businessman or have an occupation. You had to have proof, you know, other than just being a peon laborer type. And by going through - and that's always been something that's confronted me. I mean, I've wondered and worried about why they were granted freedom? When they...maybe it's freedom from their apprenticeship, to prove that they had completed a servitude or a training.
G: Okay. Talk some more about the basket-making and how it moved them in another direction, with the family.
M: I'm not real sure whenever...I know that my great-grandfather, Edward White, which is George's father, his business was in brush-making - hair brushes, and maybe other kinds of brushes that would be used about the house. And at what point they changed from baskets to brushes I have no idea. But it was all considered a part of the same company. And... Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 16 G: And the company did have a name?
M: The Basket-makers Company - Worshipful Company of Basket-makers. In fact, it was first started in 1569.
G: Was that a White Company or a union company?
M: It was union. You mean my family White name? No, I think it was other... No, in fact some of the records that I have gotten from the Guild Hall shows other people's names in it, so it's not...wasn't strictly in...my ancestors were leaders in the company because you can see where they were M: appointed - what was the title they gave them? Shoot, I can't...oh! - senior warden and junior warden. And in the 1860s, the Basket-makers union was beginning to deteriorate, go down from lack of interest maybe. And my great-grandfather White was instrumental in reviving the company and getting it back on its feet and getting more people started. And that's when this silver tray was given to him, presented to him as - in recognition of his efforts.
G: And you still have possession of that tray?
M: My son does - that was willed to him by my father.
G: And it was your father's father?
M: Grandfather - my father's grandfather that was the recipient of the tray.
G: Mrs. McNabb is looking through some papers and documents she has to help tell us some more of the story.
M: And I got these documents from the Guild Hall in London. And I was quite impressed whenever they allowed me Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 17 to hold a little tiny book about...well, each page must have been about three by four inches, something like that, that started telling about when Mr. Edward White paid his "quarterage", which I gathered were dues. And he paid... they had pounds, pence and S - that would be shilling, I guess, or sterling, I don't know. And it looked like five pence and four S, whatever that it. They held a lot of their meetings in the pubs.
G: That's a very English tradition.
M: Yeah, yeah. One of them was held at the house of Mr. Charles Worth of Hart Street, near Cripple Gate, in 1764. Let's see, where did I see...
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
G: Continuing the conversation with Jeanne W. McNabb, regarding her grandfather, George Gladstone White. Jeanne, your family - George Gladstone's family - was very strong in the basket making and brush trades, did he not take that up as a youth back in England?
M: I don't think he had the time; I think he was probably in school, up until he was seventeen years old, you know. Whether or not he worked in his father's factory after school let out, I have no idea. That's something he never shared with me.
G: Do you know anything of his schooling?
M: No, not a thing. Since George had an older brother, Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 18 Edward - Edward Henry was his name - it's possible that he was being groomed as the one to take over the business, and then my grandfather was the fifth child down.
G: Do you know why he chose, as a youth, to come to America?
M: I have no idea. Can't even get any relationship between the White family and the Poole family where he came M: to.
G: Did he travel alone to come to America?
M: Yes. Right.
G: Trace that route, if you can.
M: Oh, from London to New York. And there again, I do not know whether he went by train to Austin or San Antonio or Houston or whether he came by ship. I don't...somehow or other I don't believe he came by ship from New York to Galveston, say. I know when he went back to visit his mother in 1890, he went by train from Austin to New York. But...
G: And do you know anything about that return visit that you could share?
M: Oh, yeah. That was interesting. This was just a few months - in September before they were married in December of 1890.
G: He and his wife Agnes?
M: When they were married in 1890, but at the time he went back to London to visit his mother they were not married.Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 19 G: Okay.
M: And I have several letters that he has written her that she has saved, describing the...visiting his mother, you know, and how glad he was to see her and all of that. And then just about the time he was to return, his uncle, the Reverend Henry White, who was the minister to the Queen
M: Victoria there at the Chapel - Royal Chapel of the Savoy - he died. And we have newspaper articles, and it just goes on for pages and pages about this Uncle Henry's life and how important it was to the community and to the family of course. And it listed, in details, the funeral entourage and who rode in what carriage; and my grandfather's name is in it. And at the time, even though he was a minister of the Chapel Royal of Savoy, he was not...they were not burying in downtown London anymore. So he is buried out in the suburbs. There again I don't know where. There's a memorial, a stained-glass memorial window, dedicated to him at the King's College there in London that I visited.
G: To Uncle Henry?
M: Uh-huh, yes, right. My sister and my son have both visited the Savoy Chapel downtown where he was minister. When I went back not long ago, a year or two ago, the minister in charge there now pointed out they still have the thrones where the queen - I think it was Albert - is that Victoria's husband? - where they sat at the back of the Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 20 church. He was most gracious after he found out I was a descendant of one of the previous ministers. And he even let me take some pictures in the church, which was not permitted by just anybody! [laughter] Now, let me see, the only family stories that my grandfather ever told me of his M: life as a child was that once he took his mother's washtub and went about three blocks from their home on Cannon Street...
G: In London?
M: In London - down to the Thames where he went sailing. And he just said that for that he got switched. And that, you know, it's been one of the family stories all my life and I don't know any other!
G: Being of English birth and English culture, do you know of any cultural life-ways or traditions that he brought to America that were in the family?
M: Um. Well, I never had thought about that.
G: Foods, music, reading material, dress, routine?
M: He was...I always recall remembering him as being very formally - dressed in a suit, of course. Because by the time I was old enough to remember, he was the president of the bank and I nearly always saw him in a suit. He never traveled very much. He and one of his daughters went to Carlsbad Cavern one year. And I think the family all went down to Corpus Christi. In fact, when my dad was a small child, because his family story is - and it's gotten to be Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 21 quite a funny thing. Every time we have watermelon he always tells about the coldest watermelon he ever ate was two days after the 4th of July in Sinton, Texas, and that watermelon had been in the ice house that long! But anyhow, M: the family didn't do too much travelling because I don't think Grandmother White didn't...didn't want to. She just wanted to stay right in her little hometown and not go anywhere. Grandfather was diabetic, he - that was discovered in the '30s. And he went for treatment down on the Mexican border. Where...what is that old fellow's... doctor's name, Brinkley? Yeah. And then the family was challenged to try to make dishes for him using saccharine - no sugar, you know. But I don't think that was a complication of his death or anything because it was under control all his later life.
G: Do you have any articles from his personal life that show his English culture that you could tell me about?
M: Nope. Everything that started his life over here I think!
G: Yes.
M: He just...just was the reticent type - staid, stern, severe type Englishman - that just didn't project, conversation-wise anyhow. One of his funny little habits was, he would tell a little joke every once in awhile and then he'd laugh at his own joke and he'd say, "Wah, wah, wah!" [laughter] And we'd...I think it kind of irritated Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 22 my mom, but... [laughter] "Wah, wah, wah!"
G: You have the family bible on the table. Does it have some stories in it or stories that it brings to mind?
M: Nope. It's just all documentation of births and deaths, is all. I was fortunate enough to inherit the family bible that had been started in London. The first entry in the front of the bible is...says, “Edward White, born January 11, 1828, christened at St. Swithins,” which is a church in London. Matilda Cordelia Surrey, born August 31, 1829, christened at St. Luke's, Chelsea, C-h-e-l-s-e-a, married at St. Mary Abbot's in Kensington, August 31, 1852. And then it lists their children, you want me to... A son, a daughter that died, a son that died, a daughter that lived until 1946, the daughter that moved and went to India, and then my grandfather, and then another daughter that died. And it shows where they were all buried.
G: So read the information on your grandfather, George Gladstone.
M: Oh, all right. He was born July 12, 1866, at...and he was christened at St. Stephen's Walbrook (?), which is the church in the area where they went. Then, I can recognize my mother's handwriting that showed his death date of August 7, 1947, and buried at Liberty Hill, Texas. In the back of the book - bible - is my very own entry. My grandfather relayed the information to his mother, and she entered it in the family bible. And then it's finally come down to my Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 23 possession. It also shows my father and his two sisters' birth, marriage, death dates.
G: And they're the latest entries?
M: Uh-huh. Right. Now, I don't think I will add anymore to this - like my father's death date or something like that - I just want to keep it like it is.
G: That's a treasure to have the family bible.
M: Isn't it though? Right. And I need to take it to some professional and have it restored.
G: It's a little raggedy on the edges.
M: Yeah. But it's still very legible.
G: That's marvelous.
M: Yep.
G: You have another little book in your hand.
M: This little book is a Floral Birthday Book. And I'm sure that my grand...great-grandmother gave it to George whenever he left London to show...so he'd know when all the family's birthdays were. It's a - oh, I guess it's about three by six and it's - each day shows the flower and then it's an entry beside it that you can show the family when they were born. And here's mine - 1926, born Tuesday morning at six o'clock, I didn't know it was that time. [laughter] Another little book that I have that is a bible that my great-grandmother gave to George whenever he was on his way over here, and it's inscribed on the inside with his mother's prayers - June 14, 1884. Isn't that interesting? Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 24 And it's in disrepair too. So thank goodness he used it.
G: Is there anything written in there, other than that date?
M: Nope, not a thing. And the print is so fine. I don't know how they'd read it by that old coal oil lamp.
G: So that was his personal bible that he carried with him?
M: That his mother had given him, with her prayers.
G: So she gave a Floral Birthday Book and his personal hand bible.
M: Right.
G: So we know that he came to America with at least two important...
M: Right.
G: ...gifts of the family.
M: Yes. Early on in his life he became a Mason. And that was one of the important aspects of his life. He was very devoted to Masonic work and was a...let me see, he was first initiated into the Masonic Lodge A.F. and A.M. in July 1898, in Gabriel Mills.
G: 18...?
M: ‘98.
G: 1898. And say the name again.
M: Masonic Lodge A.F. and A.M.
G: A.F. and A.M.
M: Uh-huh. Periods after each one of those - Ancient Free Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 25 M: and Accepted Masons.
G: What do you know about Masonic Lodge Brotherhoods?
M: Oh.
G: Can you explain a little bit about what that is?
M: Do you know, it's always been characterized as secretive. And, really, it's just a brotherhood that does have secret handshakes so that they can recognize each other. But it's based on...so much of it's based on the bible scripture, that anybody can read. And...but because of the secretiveness of it, my own father and grandfather never talked very much about it. I've learned more about it in the last few years than I ever knew all my life! [laughter] My grandfather, of course, was initiated into the lodge over at Gabriel Mills, and then it moved over to the little community of Mohomet, which is about five or six miles away, when the one there in Gabriel Mills burned down. And he has been a...or he always was a leader in the Masonic work. And then my father came along; why, he fell right in, on his twenty-first birthday, which is the first opportunity you can become a Mason. And they both enjoyed the brotherhood and the closeness of the fraternity all of their lives. George was the Worshipful Master, which is the leader of the organization, in the Mount Horeb Masonic Lodge there in...
G: Say the name again.
M: Mount Horeb - H-o-r-e-b. That's the title they had in Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 26 Gabriel Mills when it was first formed. He was a High Priest of the Mount Horeb Chapter, thrice Illustrious Master of the Council, Grand High Priest, Royal Arch Chapter of Texas, Most Illustrious Grand Master of the Grand Chapter of Texas, and Imminent Commander of Knight Templar No. 4 in Austin. That's a lot of titles. They knew it. And my father and my grandfather both held the state office of Most Illustrious Grand Master of the Grand Council of Royal Arch and Select Masons. And my father was always very proud of that because at that time, or up until his death even, no other father-son had ever held the same office. Grandfather was also instrumental in...he was on the board of the Orphan's Home up at Arlington, which the Masons sponsored. That was one of his philanthropic activities. He was Episcopal in religion, and since they didn't have any Episcopal church in Burnet County - although they may have had one up in Burnet, but not in Bertram where they lived - he would go to the Methodist church with my grandmother. And then any time they would have camp meetings, you know, arbor meetings, during the summer - revivals! – why, he'd go to all those. And I have found records where he contributed to each one of the churches in Bertram - a little more to his wife's church. Can you not give them just this? I guess so.
G: I'd like to make notes of the name of the office again that was held by George G. White and his son Edward White. Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 27 They both held the office of Most Illustrious Grand Master of the Grand Council of Texas?
M: Royal.
G: Royal and Select Masters of Texas, period. In closing, I'd like to ask Jeanne if there's anything else she'd like to add, or reminisce about concerning her grandfather George Gladstone White?
M: Well, I guess he instilled a fondness and respect for family all of his life. And dignity was one of the things that I always characterized him as. He wasn't one of those joking, loud boisterous types of men that like to hug and kiss like men do nowadays, you know. He was...but you felt comfortable with him. One of the things I remember was when I was in the fourth grade. There was no transportation from the ranch into town for me to go to school, and so I lived with he and grandmother for that year. And one of the things he would always get onto me for was not closing the door. And, of course, in the wintertime that was bad because you just had little old space heaters, you know. And he'd always throw out this French phrase, "fermez la porte, s'il vous plait." – “Close the door, please!”, you know. And that is one of the things that I remember about him. Also, he used to pay me a nickel to polish his shoes M: for him. And then some of my treasures that have come down that he's created. I have his very first income tax returns. And, of course, all of these old journals where heJeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 28 recorded his farm accounts. And those have just been discovered in the past year or so - a lot of those - because my sister and I are emptying our parents home now, and some of this has just been up in the attic. And, of course, that has been subject to heat and dust and everything, and they deteriorated a lot. But some of the things - like a letter from my grandfather to my grandmother in 1890 whenever he tells about having safely arrived back in London to visit his people. He said: "My mother and relations were very glad to see me, as you can suppose. They think I have been ...I have altered considerably, and I expect I could have passed them on the street and they wouldn't even have recognized me." But then he went out and bought some English clothes that made him look more like the people of the time. Because I'm sure - in the journals I can see where he bought himself overalls and jeans and such as that.
G: What year is this letter dated?
M: 1890. This was when he went back to visit her, just before he and grandmother were married. Then in October 1890, his letter started having the big black mourning band on it, because of his uncle dying. That one's just...this one's got one all the way around the whole envelope and that M: one's just got a corner of it.
G: She refers to the letters having a border on all four edges of the paper, about a quarter inch, about a quarter inch wide - black. A custom when one is in mourning. And Jeanne McNabb (Tape 1 of 2) 29 also a wedge of a corner in the top, left hand side being black. Okay. By December '90, he was calling her "darling."
G: That's Agnes, huh?
M: Yes. So that shows you they were just about to get married. Well, I...you know, I'm going to think of things I know later on that might be of interest, but at this point that's about all I can come up with.
G: Well, I want to thank Jeanne McNabb for sharing all these memories with me, so that we can put them down on tape and in writing. It's 12:20, and I will close this tape and say, “Thank you very much”. This is Diane Gray, research associate, Institute of Texan Cultures, University of Texas at San Antonio.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.