THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: Kitty Sue Menzies (KSM)
DATE: November 11, 1986
PLACE: Menardville Museum, Menard, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Mayon Neel
N: We're here at the Menardville Museum, starting the oral
history tapes for the Institute of Texas Cultures. First we
have Mrs. Kitty Sue Menzies. Her husband was Max Menzies ,
one of several boys of the Menzies family, and she is going
to give us the history of her mother-in law; Kitty Sue.
KSM: This is the story of Letha Ann Chasta in Menzies. Some
time ago I was asked to write a story of Mrs. Menzies as a
Menard pioneer woman. Willie Lee Everett and Ann Menzies
have written a beautiful report on the Menzies family in the
Menard History Book. I don't know what Mother Menzies would
have said to at tribute to her forty years after her passing.
Time seems to have added significan t depth , esteem , and
appreciation of her character. So, with humility and
hesitation, I drift into the distant past with her story.
I was assisted with material from Max, Alex , and Ann
Menzies, Hazel Menzies, and R.J. Godfrey. Willie Lee
Everett has letters that were used as reference. To
understand this remarkable woman and man, one must realize a
little of their achievement. Mr. and Mrs. Menzies were an
MENZIES (KSM) 2
ambitious, well-balanced pair. Mr. Menzies seemed to be
enterprising and adventurous, but hers was a conservative,
common-sense nature. In one lifetime, they achieved
property, land, machinery, buildings, a herd of registered
Hereford cattle, and a very spacious home. Intangibly , they
f ound respect, prominence, a reputation of integrity,
presstige, an honorable name, and a good life for their
children. Here i s only a part of her story:
In the beginning, there was a family named Robertson,
who moved from South Carolina to Georgia, and then t o Texas.
In this family were twin boys, named Dick and Jack. From
Jack's family came the Godfreys, Claiborne Godfrey's family.
And from Dick's family came Peter Robertson, whose
descendants made a l o t of the people of Menard "kissing
cousins". Now these twins had a sister, Miranda Robertson.
She married an Alexander. They had a son named Joab, and a
daughter named Alcy. Alcy married Littleton Maxwell
Chastain. The Chastains were French, and had fled France in
the persecution of the Huguenots. Alcy Alexander was the
mother of Letha Ann Chastain. The L.M. Chastains, a large
family of four boys and three girls, came to Menard County
in 1877. Mr. Chastain had scouted this country before the
Civil War. They homesteaded on land on the San Saba River,
between Five-mile and Ten-mile River Crossing, east of
Menard. They built a house on the road, somewhat east o f
Jack Ellis' gate. Now it was a two-story house, with two
rooms upstairs and two rooms down, with a built-on kitchen
MENZIES (KSM) 3
and dining room. There was also a workroom and a celler,
and big barns. The cistern was filtered with a box of
gravel and charcoal. Mr. Chastain died in 1903, but Mrs.
Chastain lived on in her home. She managed her property ,
and the Menzies children shared, spending time, ti~e at a
week, with her.
The house was still standing in 1931, but was believed
haunted. Her home was on the road to the Menzies house,
across the river. The children remembered she had the best
jam and jelly in the world, and always had a big sandwich
ready for them as they returned from town. There was also a
good dipper of clean water. Later on , as she became older,
she lived with the Menzies family. Al l of her other
Chastain children had moved away from Menard. Some of them
changed the pronunciation of their name to Chastan. When
grandmother became ill and bed- ridden, each child went each
morning to her room to kiss her and bid her good morning.
She died January 11, 1913 and was buried beside her husband
in the southwest area of the Pioneer Rest Cemetery. A
beautiful ornate iron fence e nclosed the graves. Nearby are
the graves of her brother, Joab Alexander, born in 1840 and
he died in 1924, and of his wife, Martha, who was born in
1841 and died in 1904.
Letha Ann Menzies, often known as Lee, was born October
2, 1867. She was ten years old when the family moved to
Menard County. She had four brothers and two sisters.
There was James, called Jim, Elvina, Maxwell, Mary, William
and
MENZIES (KSM) 4
Perry. There was little known of Letha's schooling and
early childhood. There was a school at Vinegar Rone which
might have been her school.
One of her very good friends was Lula Kitchens , and
when Lula married Charles Noyes, Letha (Lee) was a
bridesmaid. Now, how did she look? She was about five f oot
eight tall, had lovely peaches-and-cream complexion , light
brown hair, blue eyes and fine teeth. This coloring and her
fine teeth lasted her all her life. Many of these
characteristics she passed on to other generations. They
still speak of the Chastain complexion and fair hair.
Letha Ann Chastain and William Menzies were married
December 19, 1888. She was 21 and he was 33. Perhaps she
was pleased t o marry a New York Scotchman, as he had
advantages and skills that were beyond most of the cowboys
of the west. But to understand Mrs. Menzies you must know
some t hing of Mr. Menzies. He came as an infant from
Scotland to Irving-on-the-Hudson in the state of New York.
At about 21 he sailed on the ship "Luckenbach" to Texas.
After several years in east Texas, he came west. Mr .
Winslow wrote in his diary that young William Menzies had
spent the night with them. He was hunting a place to
settle. Well, he settled across the river from the Chastain
homeplace.
Mr. Menzies was a small man, about five foot nine
inches tall, but he had a great lust for life. He loved
horses, horse races , machinery, everything that was new and
progressive. He was active, trim, and smart. He was still
MENZIES (KSM) 5
attending football games at 95. They went to see the Dallas
fair in the year 1936, and again in 1937.
He was a skilled carpenter. He must have enjoyed his
profession. He guided the building of a small house that
was flooded in 1899 and then a larger home or house was
built on the hill. It was later remodeled, adding a second
floor. The big house had a big entrance hall, a parlor with
a couch and a folding bed for company, a family room with a
fireplace, a dining room, a kitchen, two large bedrooms
downstairs, and a large room upstairs for the boys, a
bathroom a long front porch with a balustrade, and two small
porches in the back.
Mr. Menzies' New York brothers, Alex and George, came
t o Texas often. They constructed a hydraulic press or ram
to carry water from the San Saba River to a tank on the
hill. There was also a cistern, a cellar, running hot
water, and a bathroom. There was a flower pit for Mrs.
Menzies' flowers, and for years they had carbide lights,
until Mr. Menzies installed a battery and a wind charger to
produce electricity for lights. This was a very substantial
c ountry home, o f which they were both very proud.
As proof of his progressiveness, Mr. Menzies owned and
operated an ear ly thresher. It was first powered with 16
mules and horses, and then with wood and steam, and at last
with a gasoline motor. They threshed grain from Hext to
Fort McKavett. The farm was an industry, with four large
barns, a granary, several small buildings, and a shop.
MENZIES (KSM) 6
This gives you some idea of the kind of a man Mr. Menzies
was.
It makes Mrs. Menzies even more remarkable. Perhaps
Mrs. Menzies' most outstanding quality was her love of
people. Letters from Mr. Menzies's mother , Agnes Craigmire
Menzies , revealed that they had a steady correspondence.
She called her daughter-in-law "my darling daugher". She
told of sending the small children, George and Agnes, ten
dollars apiece for birthday presents. This was a lot of
money in those days. She made and sent many of Mrs.
Menzies' clothes, including her maternity dresses.
Mrs. Menzies looked after her own mother, and she was
devoted to her sisters and brothers. Every few years, after
the train came in in 1912 , she would visit them in Pilot
Point, Fort Worth, and in Denison. In turn, the Chastain
family would come back to Hava, summer after summer for
their vacation. They were always welcomed, well-fed, and
refreshed to return to their home.
One niece had, they thought, an operatic voice , and
they arranged a concert in Menard for her. The boys didn't
even like to hear her sing the scales, and so they feigned
illness and did not attend. One wonders who came and how
many came to hear her sing.
Mrs. Menzies loved and was deeply devoted to her
husband. They had and reared eight children. The names of
her children showed the respect she had for Mr. Menzies.
George , the oldest, was named for Mr. Menzies' brother
MENZIES (KSM) 7
George. Agnes was named for his mother. The twins, Bill
and Letha, were named for their parents. Alex was named for
Mr. Menzies' brother Alex. The seventh child was named for
Mrs. Menzies' brother Max and her father, Maxwell. There
were 19 grandchildren, 15 boys and four girls, so there will
be many more people to use the Menzies' name. The twin
thing seems to have survived in Ray and Roy Jacoby,
grandchildren, and in great-grandchildren, Wade and Ward
Menzies. We also need to note that Pearl was named for Mrs.
Menzies' brother's (Perry) wife. Walter was named for
Walter Scott Robertson, a niece's husband, and a family
name.
Mrs. Menzies looked after Mr. Menzies' health,
happiness, and well-being at all times. Every morning,
instead of a coffee break, he carne from where ever he was t o
have a cold glass o f buttermilk. She often ordered him salt
mackerel, for which he had a fondness. During her last
illness, from her hospital bed, she sent Bill to find salt
mackerel to take horne to Mr. Menzies.
Mrs. Menzies loved her children and her grandchildren
and all down the line. This l ove extended t o the education
of everyone of them. The children walked three miles to
Kitchen School and carried their lunch, such as biscuits and
butter, and jelly and hard-cooked eggs. They gathered
vegetables on the road horne and they crossed the San Saba
River on a log. The older girls, Agnes and Letha, t ook
state examinations for teacher's certificates and taught in
MENZIES (KSM) 8
a number of county schools. The boys, Alex and Max, were
football-inspired to attend college.
To many pioneers, an education was a foot in the door
to opportunity . Of the 19 grandchildren, 14 received
college degrees. Resourcefulness, courage , common sense,
and the ability to do much work, and as much work as was
required, was exhib ited by Mrs. Menzies as a homemaker.
After the Kitchen Ditch came into being, they grew a very
large garden across the river. There were all kinds of
vegetables, including tomatoes, sweet potatoes, green beans,
pinto beans, carshaws, pumpkins, corn, asparagus, and
anything you could name. There was an orchard with pear,
peaches, and pecans and figs. They tried a tomato canning
plant. The label had a big red tomato on it. It must not
have been very successful, for it soon closed.
Their garden, along with the milk, butter, chickens,
turkeys, hogs, fish, beef, lamb, and honey, supplied a
bountiful table. The cellar, located under the house, was
the storage for canned foods as well as sweet potatoes ,
onions , dried beans, etc.
Mrs. Menzies' hospitality included neighbors, friends,
relatives, grown children, visitors, travelers, the
preacher on Sunday, and the down- and-outers who came by .
Can you imagine the work that was involved? In my time she
organized home demonstration into her home. She had a
welcome saying that was handed down. She would say, "Come
in and eat. We've already eaten, but there's plenty of it,
MENZIES (KSM) 9
such as it is, and good enough, too, what there is of it."
Before World War I, Mr. Menzies bought a carload of
shorthorn and Jersey cows, and from this buy there was often
20 cows to be milked. Four or five persons, including Mrs.
Menzies, would milk. There was a steel separator, and they
churned 20 gallons of cream at a time. The churn was a
wooden barrel with side braces and a sharp (or short) wheel,
so they could shake the cream to butter.
And then on Saturday, with some of the children , they
would travel to Menard, 12 miles. Her wagon or a buggy
would carry a variety of foods, such as four or five bushels
of tomatoes , a hundred pounds of butter, many one-half
gallons of buttermilk, dozens of eggs , honey, chickens, and
other sa l able items. The children would deliver the
products a llover town to customers. There was seldom
anything left that must be carried home. A letter written
in 1920 by Letha Jacoby to her mother, Mrs. Menzies, who was
vising her sister in pilot Point, wrote that she and Pearl
had kept up her business and they had deposited seven
dollars and had small checks and change so she might write a
check on her own account if she needed money.
END OF TAPE, SIDE 1, 15 MINUTES.
MENZIES (KSM) 10
TAPE I, SIDE 2
All of these activities took organization, and no one
was idle. On rainy days, the boy mended sacks, rolled
twine, and shucked corn. They learned that work must be
done quickly and well and efficient. I stand in awe at the
physical work involved. They must have started before day,
worked hard all day, and gone to bed tired. This sounds
like a grim household but it was not. Good humor ran
through the whole family.
The boys managed excitement with the neighbor boys in
riding the calves, and breaking horses, and riding horses
and logs in the flooded waters of the San Saba River. They
also rode wagons allover the hills. They did a lot of
fishing and hunting. They were all active in community
life. There were church socials, school parties and plays,
neighbor plays, and ice cream suppers at home. There was
enough fun, so that they did not seem to resent the work.
Through all this activity Mrs. Menzies was cheerful,
kind, and generous, and did not overly criticize her
children. By 1912 Mrs. Menzies owned her own flock of
sheep. Nowadays we might call her a liberated woman. With
her profits, she bought household furniture. There was a
dining room set with an oval glass china cabinet. The
furniture was shipped from San Antonio. There was a piano,
lace curtains, a pretty quilt as well as useful ones. She
was very proud of her home. She had a yard and a porch full
MENZIES (KSH) 11
of flowers in the summer and then stored the pot plants in
the cement flower pit during the winter. She liked to be
well dressed, and she wore earrings in her pierced ears and
combs in her hair.
She was very aware of the family business and bank
account. Once, when Mr. Menzies was gone , a note became due
at the bank. Now bankers in those days made a practice of
foreclosing, and they were not always lenient. She went to
a neighbor, borrowed enough money to satisfy the banker
until Mr. Menzies ' return.
Speaking of courage or maybe survival, in about 1918 or
1920, Mr. and Mrs. Menzies had gone in the car, a Dodge
victor 6, across the river to gather vegetables in the
garden. As they started back across the river they found
that the rains up the river had quickly changed the clear
water to muddy. They left the car mid-stream and waded out
in waist-deep water. Very shortly the car was swept into a
deep waterhole below the crossing, and tumbled over. Later
the car was recovered, cleaned, and sold to a man who drove
it for 11 years.
They attended church at Kitchen School; they helped
with the church finances; the organization and the brush
arbor dinners. They had the customary respect and faith in
the church, but were far from being fanatics. To gather the
children and the kin together to go to church was a problem,
as there were often delays. Mother Menzies would say,
"We're going to be late; church will be half over." And Dad
MENZIES (KSM) 12
Menzies would say, "Come on, come on, half of it is in the
going."
Most of the time, because of the good food and the
exercise and the fresh air, the families were well. Once
Mr. Menzies hurt his back, and she wrapped a hot stove cap
with paper and cloth and cured his back ache. Alex cut his
heel string , and she wrapped it with a cloth, binding sugar
to the wound , and then poured turpentine on the cloth. He
healed , also. She helped with the delivery of the
neighbors' babies, some of whom are still around. But they
used Dr. McKnight to deliver her younger babies. The boys
tell that, after one of the surprise visits of the doctor,
they found their mother in bed and the baby, Walter , by her
side. Walter was eight years younger than Max, so there's a
lot to be said for long, full dresses. Alex tells of Max as
a small child having osteomyelitis in his arm for several
years. The arm would occasionally swell, and they would use
Madeira vine leaves for a poultice. Once they came to see
Dr. Findley, when the arm was badly swollen. Now Alex came
al ong, f o r he had gotten the leaves, and he wanted to see
the results. Well, when they pierced Max's arm, the
infection shot out and Alex was the one who fainted.
In 1938 Mr. and Mrs. Menzies held their golden wedding
celebration. There was an evening dinner in the Crystal
Ballroom of the Bevans Hotel, before the chandeliers were
taken down. There must have been over 100 dinner guests.
Mrs. Noyes came from Florida, and Dr. and Mrs. McKnight
MENZIES (KSM) 13
were there, as well as most of the kissing cousins. Mr.
Menzies was very proud. Mrs. Menzies wore a black lace
dress with jeweled combs in her hair, gold earrings, and a
lovely corsage.
Sometimes we think that being of Scotch descent means
being close with one's things. Well, these were Scotch, but
they were good people and they were very, very generous. To
each child, when he or she married, they gave a Jersey cow
and calf, a hog, a coop of chickens, down pillows, a
mattress, and many linens. They took the children in,
whenever they needed a home; they gave them a job; they
loaned them or gave them money; and loaned them anything on
the the place that they could use. In time of hard luck,
they sent them a bull, a boar, or a gobbler, or sometimes
all three. They visited them when they were sick, and they
seemed to love their grandbabies best of all.
Mrs. Menzies held a high moral value on the family
name. Once I heard her reprimand someone by saying, "Now,
Menzies wouldn't do that." Perhaps that's her best advice
that can be passed on to the generations who bear the name.
I'm sure there were times of disappointment, friction,
sorrow, mistakes, and even tragedy, but Mrs. Menzies always
had fortitude to cope with whatever life offered.
At the time of her passing, Mrs. A.W. Noguess wrote of
her for the Menard News:
"January the 1st witnessed the passing of a great and
good woman, Mrs. Letha Ann Chastain Menzies. She was a good
MENZIES (KSM) 14
daughter, a good wife , and a good mother . Also a good
neighbor."
When Max Menzies , her seventh child , was three or four
months o l d , there was a neighbor woman who died and left a
little baby . Well , Miss Letha came and took the l ittle one
t o raise. She thought she could nurse both the children ,
but she didn 't have enough milk for two babies, and she had
to let the little Hardwick baby go to Alabama to one of the
little one ' s aunts t o be raised. But this noble woman was
willing t o make room in her home for the little motherless
baby while she had seven lit tle ones of her own to care for,
and a trip once a week to make to br ing butter , eggs, milk
and vegetables to Menard to her customers.
Mr. A. E . Norwel remarked not long ago that when they
first moved to Menard they got all of their supplies o f this
kind from Mrs . Menzies, and he did not know what they would
have done without them. "She was a very useful woman," he
said. There were few women like Letha Chastain Menzies.
Mrs. Menzies passed away January 1, 1945, at the age of 78,
in a San Antonio hospital, after a bout with pneumonia. In
respect and remembrance of her many kindnesses, the Menard
Baptist Church and yard were full of her friends and family.
She is buried in Rest Haven Cemetery. Letha Ann Chastain
Menzies, October 2, 1867 - January 1, 1945. I am proud to
be able to present this tribute to her and to her family .
Thank you.
MENZIES (KSM)
N: Wonderful, Kitty Sue, and we thank you so much.
M: You're very, very welcome.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT 10 MINUTES.
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