THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: Ed Mueller, Joe Green (Mean Joe Green)
and (K: Mrs_ Kaspar)
DATE: October 17, 1985
PLACE: Shiner, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Jim Sweeney and Helen Sweeney
S: Ed, how long ago did you first come to Shiner and
are you a Texan? Where did your parents come from?
M: My daddy was born in Germany; my mother was born in
Austin County_ Been living here all my life in Lavaca
County_
S: Your father was from where in Germany?
M: Augsburg_ He was twelve years old when he came
over_
S: He was twelve years old_ And then you were born
where?
M: Here in Lavaca County, east of Shiner_
S: East of Shiner_ Then you came to Shiner to go to
school?
M: I went to school in Mangus school, just west of town
here a few miles_
MUELLER/GREEN
S: What sort of a school was that?
M: Just a little old country school_
s: Was it a one room school?
M: Yes_
S: How many kids in the one room school?
M: I think it was fifty four most of the time_
s: And that was grammar school up to high school?
M: Eighth grade_
s: And then did you go on into high school after that?
M: No_
S: After that was an education that you got here?
M: Yes_ Working_
s: Then what did you do following that?
M: We left the farm in 1916 and moved to town_ I went
to work_
s: So you were a farmer?
M: Yeah_
S: What did you farm?
M: cotton_ Cotton and corn_
S: And that was the big product at that time _
H: Yeah_
S: And then you came into town and you got a job with
what ___ with the city?
M: Not with the city; I was with the bottling company
_ The Shiner Bottling Works_ Soda water factory_
And then I went in the mechanical business with the Ford
people_ I worked for the Strauss & Herder Ford people_
I worked for Strauss for about three years_ And then I
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MUELLER/GREEN
M: worked for them in Halletsville_
S: How did you get to working with the city?
M: In 1932, I went to work for the city _ _ _ They
didn't have anybody_ The city was very small at that
time_
s: Like what, in population_ Do you recall?
M: Oh, I guess around 1600_
s: Fifteen, sixteen hundred_
M: It was a small, little town_ That's all it was_
Then I worked for the city on the maintenance force,
streets and stuff_ _ _ About 1939 we started paving the
streets_ I was the first one to start paving _ _ _ In
1940 we got into it in a big way_
s: So the streets here in Shiner were not at that time
paved_ Is that correct?
M: No_ They were nothing but mud holes and chuck
holes_
M: Mud holes and chuck holes_ Did you have many
automobiles in town?
M: Very few_
S: Very few_ So it was mostly -
M: Horses and buggy _
S: Horses and buggies_
M: And wagons_
S: You made your rounds with
buggy _ Is that right?
M: No_
the city in a horse and
S: What did you run into _ _ _ what were your
3
MUELLER/GREEN
S: difficulties? What was your job when you were with
the city?
M: Well, everything. I was street supervisor, water,
sewage, everything. I had everything. We worked
mainly with a small tractor.
S: How about tax collector?
M: The city marshall did that.
S: The city marshall, he was also law enforcement?
M: Yeah
S: They had a volunteer fire department. Were you a
member of the volunteer fire department?
M: I was a member of the volunteer fire department
twenty-five years.
S: Twenty five years and in the course of
twenty-five years, did you fight any severe fires?
Were there any severe fires?
M: We had a few good fires. There was a tire shop
burned here and we had a commercial hotel to burn.
(It was where the new fire station is now.) We had
quite a few fires. Also Ruben's store {where Winn's
store is now.
S: The tire company, did it put it out of business?
M: They had to because there wasn't nothing left of
it. When a bunch of tires catch fire, you can't put
'em out. A brick building, it just smouldered away.
Finally got it out but it was a mean job. You take
tires, when they burn, you can't stand the smoke; too
much sulphur gas in that rubber. You have to move out.
4
MUELLER/GREEN
M: We had several good fires. We had a hotel to
burning here; a dry goods store to go; a compress to go
in 1919. That was a big loss.
s: Were there any people killed or lost or burned?
M: No. Nobody hurt.
S: I'm interested in where you got your water from.
9id you have a pumper tank?
M: Yeah. We had a pumper. We had fire hydrants.
S: You had fire hydrants so the city was pretty well
advanced even though it didn't have paved streets ..
It had sewage.
M: We had sewage from 1927; got all of our streets
sewaged. After that then we could go ahead and get to
the paving.
We used to have an old ice plant.
S: And yoU were governed by a mayor and a city
council?
M: Yeah.
S: The city council and the mayor were elected. Is
that correct?
M: Oh yeah.
S: How many on the city council?
M: There were five aldermen, the mayor and a
secretary.
S: At that time were there any women on the council?
M: No.
S: There were no women in the government heirarchy?
M: No.
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MUELLER/GREEN
S: Helen, pay nate to that please.
You were married, of course.
M: Yeah. I got married in 1931.
S: And you married a local girl?
M: Yes.
5: And you've had children?
M: Yeah.
5: Were they bays or girls?
M: One girl, one bay.
(laughter)
S: And they're still living here as residents of
Shiner?
M: No. One of them works for the state highway
department as warden. My daughter lives in Aransas
Pass.
5: Since your retirement, do you have any particular
hobbies to occupy your time?
M: Well, there ain't much to do now. My wife is not
tao healthy and I stay at home mast of the time. We
used to run a bunch of cattle aut in the country but I
had to sellout because of putting my time with her.
5:
M:
You did have a ranch up until
We had a bunch of cattle.
5: You didn't go back to raising cotton.
M: No.
5: Cotton is nat now raised.
M: Nat tao much catton raised around here. Twa or
three people that raise catton. We have no gins here.
We used to have seven gins. Now we ain't got nothin'.
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MUELLER/GREEN
M: The nearest gin is Lockhart_ We've got to go to
Lockhart to gin a bale of cotton_
s: An interesting question I'm going to ask Joe Green,
too_ In this town, were there many saloons? You know
western towns have the reputation of having a jail,
church, and a lot of saloons_
M: We had about six or seven saloons but they didn't
amount to much_ About three of 'em were pretty good
saloons_ Little old calaboose ___ about, what was it
_ about eight by eight_ (laughter) We didn't have
much trouble here_ It used to be a little red wooden
box close to where the Post Office is now_
S: It was a rather peaceful sort of c ommunity_
Joe, first of all, the thing that enters my mind
is that I was introduced to you as Joe Green, so-called
Mean Joe Green_ Now I'd like to know how you got that
name: Mean Joe Green, when you don't look at all mean_
G: They used to call me Satchel Paige, the name of that
ball pitcher_
s : Oh yes_ He was famous_
G: They'd say, "Joe, this is Mr_ Franklea and Mr_
Haynes from San Antonio_" And they said, "Joe, would
you mind us calling yoU Satchel Paige"" I said, "No,
call me Satchel Paige_" Well, here about two years
ago, Satchel Paige died_ And they said, "Joe, we can't
call you Satchel Paige no more_ Can we call you Mean
Joe Green?" And I said, "Well, who was mean Joe
Green?" They said, "He was a football player _" I
7
MUELLER/GREEN
G: said, "Yes, you all call me Mean Joe Green."
(laughter) That' s how I got the name Mean Joe Green.
S : First you were named after a baseball player now
you're named after a football player.
I'm sure by the look in your eye and your good
health, you're going to be named a fter a bas ketball
player before it's allover. (laughter)
But anyway, Joe, you s tarted working a long time
ago in the brewery business. When was that?
G: When we came up here, I was five years old. We
came from down below Halletsville.
S: In Texas?
G: Oh yes. In Lavaca County. I didn't know anything
about nothin' but a cotton gin . So we come by this
brewery and I asked my daddy, I said, "Daddy is that a
cotton gin?"
G: He s aid, "No son that's a brewery. Tha t's where
they make beer." That was in 1908 . We farmed like
most everybody; we farmed cotton, etc . Up 'til 1916 , I
started working in the oil mill. I was thirteen years
old . . . I worked in the oil mill til 1924 ... I
started at the brewery in 1924, prohibition days.
S: This was with the Shiner brewery.
G: Yes sir. That was during prohibition. I was a
truck driver. Started out driving a truck. When we
weren't out on the road, we'd unload coal, clean tanks,
whatever come about . I worked there until about 1926.
Mr. Spoetzel moved all his trucks to Florida. Well, I
8
MUELLER/GREEN
G: thought I was going to go, too; I wanted to go. I
wanted to see Florida. My brother-in-law was going to
go and I thought sure I was going to go. So I had the
truck and everything fixed up. And he came out one day,
Mr. Spoetzel ... He said, "Well, you ' ve got your truck
all fixed up." I s aid, "Yes. Mr. Spoetzel, when we
going to leave? " He says, "You ain't gain'" I said, "I
a in't? " He said, "No. Everybody can't leave the
brewery. You got a wife. Buster ain't got no wife. I'm
going to take him; his wife has left him. I'm going to
take him. But you've got a wife. I'm going to leave
you here. Everybody can't leave the brewery." So he
left me here.
Well, business got bad, you know, and this near
beer didn't go too hot. So business was so bad , I was
working but a couple of days a week. So another fellow
had just moved in here and we was well a c quainted. So
I told Mr. Fink, I said, "Mr. Fink, you give George
Beevers the little work I'm doing because I can get out
with these carpenters and push one thing and another
and I can make more money." Which I did. So I left .
And I came back , must have come back about '28;
somewhere in there. Beer was legalized in 1933 at
midnight, September, the fifteenth. It was legalized.
So I came back to the brewery and I'm still there.
S: When were you born?
G: I was born in 1903, 11th day of February.
S: I'd like to explain that no matter what you can say
9
MUELLER/GREEN
s: after all these years, you can't be criminally
prosecuted_ So I would like to ask you honestly, as a
brewer, as a man who's seen prohibition and the brewery
and the near beer_ Was there really near beer being
produced or was it real beer going out under the term of
near beer? Honestly, now_
G: Well, I'm going to give it to you_ Near beer was
made just like we make it today_ We made it out of the
same products; near beer_ It was fermented, with yeast,
and it was brewed the same way_ Then when they got
ready to send it out, they reboiled it_ They pumped
that beer back into the brew kettle and they called it
reboilin'--boiled all the alcohol out of it_ Then they
called it near beer_ So that's the way it was made the
same they make it now but we use one more ingredient
than we were using then_ We only used malt and hops at
that time but now they use a crushed corn to lighten the
beer_
S: Well, did all of the real beer get into the vat
that boiled off the alcohol? Or was there some going
out the back door; some real beer?
G: Yes, a lot of real beer went out the back door_ I
held a lot of it out_ (laughter)
S: That's what I wanted to hear because being in the
service, we used to get cans of 2_2 beer wasn't
that _ _ they had it stamped on there_
G: 3_2
S: Yes, 3_2, whatever it was_ It sure wasn't _ _ it
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MUELLER/GREEN
S: was the ~eal thing_ But each can had a s tamp on
it_ You we~e actually, then p~oducing ~eal bee~_
G: Yes si~_ It was ~eal bee~ at fi~st befo~e they
boiled all the alcohol out of it, it was ~eal bee~_
S: So this a~ea _ did you just dist~ibute it, this
~eal bee~ ___ in this a~ea du~ing p~ohibition?
G: No, we hauled most of it to Smithville_ smithville
was a big Katy ya~d; the big Katy shops, the ~ail~oad
men_ That's whe~e most of it went_ Those ~ail~oad
men_ And we would always take two t~uck loads at a
time_ We always went at night_ And we'd go in there,
one of the men's houses, we'd onload it in empty houses_
He would get in with us and we'd go f~om house to house
_ _ _ all those ~ail~oad men_ We'd empty one t~uck,
we'd get the other one_ Then we'd finish taking 'em
around f~om house to house_ Some we'd take down to the
cella~; some we ca~~ied upstai~s_
HS: Did you eve~ get caught?
G: No'm, we didn't but they did get caught ___ I
wasn't the~e then_
S: Who was doing the catching? We~en't the local
people ___ they all knew _ Didn't they all accept
~eal bee~?
G: They did_ Fede~al was catching people_
S: Fede~al, o~ ___ ?
G: Fede~al men, yes_
S: The local law people didn't bothe~ you_
G: No _ This t~uck load of bee~ was caught in Houston_
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MUELLER/GREEN
G: This man who caught this truc k, he wasn ' t no
Federal man or anything; he was a policeman. And this
driver made the wrong drive somewhere and he stopped
him. Instead of him telling he wasn't familiar with the
city, he got smart with that policeman. So he carried
him in. The flatbed trucks didn't have no signs on 'em.
The bottles didn't have no labels on 'em. Plain caps.
They c arried him in. They found out that he had a load
of beer there. And it was good beer.
S: What did the cops do? Drink it all, I suppose.
G: I guess they did because they'd taken the truc k and
everything. Mr. Spoetzel never did get that truck back.
It was almost a new truck, too. It was a Model A. He
never did get that truck.
S: What was a bottle of good beer selling for at that
time.
G: Well, I really don't know how they sold good beer
at that time. When beer was legalized, you could buy
it for ten cents a bottle.
S: In this legal, illegal, good legal beer, was it in
barrels or was it in bottles?
G: In bottles.
We put it in barrels; we put it in kegs . When we
say kegs, half barrels, quarter barrels and eighths. And
then we put it in cans. We put it in throwaways, we
put it in long necks.
S: As a matter of interest to me, is it cheaper to put
it in a throwaway bottle or a return bottle? Glass
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MUELLER/GREEN
S: costs, seemingly, just as much to put it in a throw
away bottle as it does in a return.
G: A throwaway or a can would cost you a little more
than a long neck because they throw it away. The long
neck you can use them over and over.
S: I see. How about the cans? Is it more costly to
put in cans?
G: Well, yes sir. It costs more because they throw
that can away. You pick up the cans ... you can sell
'em now. I don't think that makes any difference but
it's a little bit higher because they throw that can
away. The long neck, as long as you keep your bottles,
why you get . . they're returnable .
HS: Did you have a big celebration when beer came
back? In at the brewery?
G: No mam. They didn't have no big celebration.
HS: No town celebration either?
G: No mam, they didn't.
S: You must have kept on running the beer that you'd
always been sneaking out the back door. But this time
it was out the front door.
G: That's right. (laughter)
S: Joe, this is very interesting.
You're a married man?
G: Yes sir.
S: And you have children?
G: I have one boy.
S: One boy. What's he do? Is he in the brewery?
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MUELLER/GREEN
G: He's dead_ My boy passed away in 1948_
S: That's a shame_
G: He was twenty four years old_ He was working at
the brewery_ He'd been there four years_
S: How long do yOU intend to go on working at the
brewery?
G: Well, as long as they'll let me hang around and do
what I'm doin' now_ They want me to be around there_
I'm just there_ They've just got me there for a
souvenir now_ (laughter)
HS: What's your job now at the brewery?
G: Well, I have two at the brewery_ You see, when the
man that tends the bar ___ he's the one that makes the
tours and we mostly have tours at eleven o'clock in the
morning_ Well, when he makes a tour, I tend the bar_
And when the tours is over, then I have a little job in
the office_ They've got five offices in that building_
I go out and pick up trash and then I keep cokes in the
racks_ Then I'm about through_
S: Do you yourself drink beer?
G: Yes sir_
s: Do you get all the free beer you can drink?
G: Yes sir_
S: That's a pretty good job_ (laughter)
apply for that? Otherwise, get your job?
This has been very interesting_
Where do I
(laughter)
Helen, do you have any other questions?
HS: I'd like to know about the blacks_ Were there a
14
MUELLER/GREEN
HS: lot of blacks in this area, when you came in? Was
there a settlement of them? G: Yes mam. There were
quite a few of them when we come here. There were quite
a few here in Shiner.
HS: Where did they come from, mostly?
G: Well, they come from different parts, I guess.
Some were from around Bartlett down here; some were
from Hallettsville.
HS: They didn't come from like Georgia or Alabama?
G: No mam. My wife's step boy, I think he came from
Georgia. Russell. I think he came from Georgia.
S: At that time were there very many ex-slaves still
alive?
G: Not too many. They was a few. But not too many at
that time.
HS: Do you feel more accepted here in Texas than other
parts of the U.S. Is that why they came here?
G: Well, I don't know. I guess there are quite a few
of them in other states . . Georgia, Alabama and all
down in there. Some very wealthy ones back down in
there. I expect more wealthy than here in Texas.
That's what I understand. Mississippi you know, there's
lots of them down in there. You see that's mostly where
the slaves were back down in the south.
HS: I wondered if you had more opportunities here than
other places.
G: Well, I don't know. They may have had more
opportunity in California, back in the west, that part.
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MUELLER/GREEN
G: Texas has always been pretty good. I didn't see no
reason to leave it.
S: Have you done much traveling?
G: On the road? Me?
S Well, have you gone out of the state of Texas?
G: No sir. Only time I was out of the state of Texas.
I was down in Louisiana. My son was in the hospital in
Louisiana. That's the only time I was out of the
state.
S: How did you like Louisiana as compared to Texas?
G: I didn't like it at all.
S: So that's why you'be back in Shiner?
G: Yes sir. Come across the line down there I just
could feel the weight off of me.
S: That's good.
Well, Ed, do you have anything to add to the future
of the city government here and how it's grown? Do you
think that the outlook of Shiner is promising?
M: I think it is.
S: For what reason?
M: Well, we got industry: we've got the brewery;
we've got the Wire Works here. One of the largest
things there is. The Wire Works is a big asset to the
town. The brewery ... that's a big deal here.
S: Is the brewery, in your estimation, expanding?
M: I think it is. They've done a lot of expanding
s~nce way back there. They've got a bottling plant now.
They've got a canning plant. They've got lots of things
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MUELLER/GREEN
H: down there now_
HS: What did you do with your spare time in the old
days? You didn't have television or radio_
H: We had a little picture show_ We go to that once in
a while_
HS: Was there anything else_ pitch horseshoes, the
men, or any of that _ ?
M: They started that baseball. horseshoe pitching_
They've got a pretty good club here now_ Good
baseball_
HS: If you worked on the farm, you had plenty of work
so you didn't have much leisure time?
M: I didn't stay on the farm but very little_
HS: You moved in to town_
s: Did they have square dances? Were there activities
at the church?
M: We had a few of 'em_
s: Were there activities at church? Did they have any
particular social activities?
H: Oh yeah_ They used to have quite a bit_ Different
things_ But this part of the country here is mostly
Catholics_ The Catholic church when they built up over
here, there was a big deal_ They used to have a small
church here, now they've got one of the biggest
churches around this part of the country_
s: Did they have a lot of activities?
H: Oh yeah_
S: Joe. do you participate in any of these activities?
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MUELLER/GREEN
S: Do you do any square dancing?
G: No_
S: You don't_ Do you play any instruments?
G: No sir_ I never could playa bit_
HS: Did yoU go to school here at all?
G: Yes mam_
HS: Up until what grade?
G: Fifth_ Fifth grade_
I want to add something about the Wire Works_ I
have a nephew plays with B_B_ King_ You've heard of
B_B_ King?
S: Yeah_
G: And he's been allover the world_ And he was
playing in Israel and he seen a paper rack and he went
and he looked on the back of that paper rack and it
said Kaspar Wire Works_
did make me feel good _
He said, "You know that sure
This factory is right
across the road from where I live
Works_ In Israel!
S: What instrument does he play?
G: Guitar_ B_B_ King talked to
Kasper Wire
______ and he
knew my nephew was a guitar player_ And he got him_
S: Joe, he's been allover the world_
G: Yes_ They've been allover the world_ He says
he's kind of getting tired of it now_
S: Howald is he?
G: Oh Leon must be about twenty-five, maybe thirty_
S: You think he'll come back here to Shiner? And
18
MUELLER/GREEN
S: settle?
G: No, he'll come back down in Houston; that's where
he was living. He'll come back to Houston. They've
been allover Russia. He's been every which way. But
he seen on that paper rack Kaspar Wire Works. He said,
"I never did think I would see that. Sure did make me
feel good."
HS: Back to the brewery. Has the brewing of beer
changed since when you first came? Have the brewery
practices changed? Do they brew beer in a different way
now than they used to?
G: About the same way. Just about the same way.
HS: Did they use wood for fuel?
G: We were using coal. When I went there, they was
buying coal. Charcoal. Used oil too. It come out of
Rockdale UP here. They fired with coal. Then they got
gas in here. Gas came in then. And they started using
gas. And gas was s o high, Mr. Spoetzel wanted to put
in a concrete tank and started burnin' oil. And he
burned oil then until the gas come down. Then he went
back on gas again.
S: But never coal.
G: Yes, we used coal.
S: You didn't come back to coal.
G: No sir, never did go back to coal. After he left
gas, he went to oil. Then back to gas again.
S: Is coal too expensive down here? That must be the
reason, I would assume.
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MUELLER/GREEN
G: I don't know. But in the oil mill they used to
burn coal, too. But they finally went to crude oil. And
they never did go back to coal. Coal was shipped in by
train. I don't know just what year gas came in but in
'27, they went to gas. And that gas was so high, Mr.
Spoetzel, he just put in a great big concrete tank down
in the ground and he filled it with crude oil.
HS: How many people work at the brewery now?
G: I would say about forty-five. It's a small group.
HS: When you started up, how many people worked there?
G: Well, when I started workin' there, I guess it must
have been about, I don't think over fifteen.
HS: When was the brewery really started? Before your
time. You don't recall?
G: Now here's a story I'm going to give you if you want
it.
S: We want it.
G: When we come to Shiner, I didn't know nothing but a
cotton gin. That was in 1908. Well, they had got that
brewery since 1909. But we come in 1908 and this
brewery was there then. There is some confusion about
this thing. When I started workin', drivin' a truck,
I'd go to Houston, all those Shiner beer trucks down
there since 1906. I'd go to San Antonio . those
trucks up there said 1909. Well that really had me
confused. I know it was here before 1909 because we
come in '08 and it was here then. So I went to .
I went to Mr. Richter. Mr. Richter, I understand,
20
MUELLER/GREEN
G: was the first baby that was born in shiner after
. I said, I'm going to ask Mr. Richter . He may know
when this brewery s tarted. So I went to Mr. Richter
and he says, "Joe, I tell you, I really don't know what
year this brewery was started here in Shiner." well Mr.
Pryor, he lived out here by the cemetery . He was older
than Mr. Richter . I said, "I'm going to ask Mr. Pryor."
So I went to Mr. Pryor and he didn't know. So I said,
"Well, I give up." So one day Mr. Edward Migle came in.
He's up in the home now. He's ninety-seven years old.
And I said, "Mr. Migle, do you know just about when this
brewery started in Shiner." He said, "Yes, Joe. It
started in 1906." I said, "That's s ounds right. 1906."
But they settled on 1909. But it was put in in 1906.
S: '06. You were mentioning a minute ago about oil
coming in and having started with coal. When the
railroad got here, were they hauling in coal? When you
first got here?
G: Oh, yeah, they were shipping in coal all the time.
S: And where was this coal coming from?
G: Most of it come from Rockdale. Let's see, there
was another place, out of the state. Rockdale, that
was mostly lignite.
G: That was nasty stuff.
H: Was that from Texas?
G: Yeah.
S: Was that soft coal or hard coal?
G: Soft coal .
21
MUELLER/GREEN
S: Not hard coal?
G: No_
s: So you had a lot of smoke and dirt from soft coal_
G: There was a lot of that old lignite_ It was hard
to handle_
HS: Do you have a water works here?
G: Oh yeah_
HS: When did that start? You say you drank from the
creeks around here_
G: Well, we had water works around here as long as I
can remember_
HS: Where did you get your water from?
G: Wells_
HS: Are those artesian wells?
G: No_
s: Dug wells?
G: Deep wells_
HS: You must have a lot of water around here_ I notice
you have a lot of trees_
G: Oh yeah_
S: Do you two fellows do any hunting around here?
M: I used to_ When you get too old, you don't do much
of that-
S: I know what you mean_ You say too old; I'm well
aware of it_ What were you shooting?
M: Doves, quails_ We had quite a few ducks around
here_
S: Are they still around here? Did you do any
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MUELLER/ GREEN
S: s hooting7
G: Yes, I hunted some_ Doves, quails , rabbits,
s quirrels_
S: It certainly has been very interesting and I
apprec iate you two young _ _
K: Joe, you said you didn't remember the night
prohibition was lifted_ Ever since I've lived in
Shiner, I've been told the brewery whis tle went off, at
midnight and a bunch of town people came down to the
brewery_ You don't remember that?
G: Oh yes mam_ There were trucks at midnight; trucks
all around the brewery_
K: I mis understood_ I thought you said there was no
celebration_
G: Well, really, I mean like a big celebration, they
was trucks everywhere around the brewery_
K: I want you to tell about September fifteenth
didn't you s ay it was Sept ember fifteenth, 1933_
G: ' 33, at midnight_
K: I want you to tell a little bit about that_ Ed,
were you in Shiner that night? Do you remember that at
all?
M: I can't remember that night_
K: Did you go down to the brewery?
M: I couldn't get there_
I c a me in about nine thirty; I came in from the
road_ There were so many people down there; so many
cars and trucks , I couldn't even get across that bridge
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MUELLER/GREEN
M: over there_
K: I want them t.o tell that for sure_ Let's see, what
else? I'd like for you to mention who some the of the
brew masters were_ Do you remember way back there?
Who actually were some of the brew masters?
G: When I came to the brewery, Mr_ Spoetzle was his
own brew master_ He had run a brewery seven years
before he come, in Africa_
K: That's right_ He'd actually been in Egypt, wasn't
it? In north Africa?
G: Somewhere over there_
K: He'd been running a brewery in Egypt_
G: Yes mam_ Seven years_ Then he went to Canada_ He
said Africa got too hot for his wife_ Then he went to
Canada_ It was too cold there _ So he told me he went
to California_ And he always wanted to buy a little
brewery_ And that's where he seen that this brewery in
Shiner was for sale_ But he wanted to know about the
climate_
K: Let's go back now __
S: Joe, I'm most curious about the night that beer
became legal_ You said it was at midnight_ I have
heard that here in Shiner the people were out
celebrating_ Could you tell me, although you said you
didn't participate in much of this activity, could you
tell me a little bit about what was going on at that
moment, at twelve o'clock, at the brewery?
G: Those trucks all had to be loaded_ They was from
24
MUELLER/GREEN
G: every town_ They was trucks, trucks, trucks_ They
had to be loaded_ The federal man was there_ He was
the one, at midnight, he's the one givin' orders when
they could start to loadin' them trucks out_ That's the
biggest thing_ But a dance or something like that, I
don't know anything about anything like that _ There
was just trucks, trucks_ And they blowed the whistle
and there was trucks every which way; was trucks and
cars_
HS: Were they to selling the local people there, too?
G: Yes, mam_ There was local people_
s: At the brewery, were they serving beer? At that
point?
G: No, I don't think so_ I don't remember that they
was serving no beer that night_ I don't remember them
serving any beer because they had too much there to do
to loadin' all them trucks_
HS: You were saying that you were coming from
Galveston when this happened_ What did you say about
that?
H: I couldn't even get across the bridge_ Cars all
backed up_ I said to my wife, "What in the dam hell is
all this?" Then I thought about it and I says, "They've
legalized that beer_"
In Galveston, it was a different thing_ I was in
Galveston that day_ They already had regular beer_ I
stopped at a beer joint comin' out of Galveston; right
on the edge of Galveston_ We got some beer there and it
25
MUELLER/GREEN
M: was real beer. That was about seven o'clock; they
already had it.
Really, I think what it was, on the fifteenth, it
was legalized after twelve o'clock they waited til
midnight fifteen, then they opened the doors. That
federal man was here and he's the one that told them
when they can start . . .
S: They had already been selling all along anyhow.
G: They surely did. (laughter)
S: This was just to make it legal.
And Ed, you came back to shiner at that time.
M: No. I was here-- got my wife down there. She
stayed down there a lot.
S: And there were a lot of activities going on here.
M: Oh Lord, yes.
S: A real beer celebration.
M: Oh yeah. Bound to be with all them trucks. I
believe every town in Lavaca County had a truck down
there.
HS: Who was the first brew master?
G: The first brew master Mr. Spoetzel had I think as
near as I know was his nephew (vice-brew master). Mr.
Hoetzbeck.
HS: And who was the brew master before that?
G: Mr. Spoetzel was his own brew master when they was
makin' near beer.
HS: And where did he come from?
G: He come from Germany.
26
MUELLER/GREEN
HS: Did he go down to Egypt?
G: A brewery in Africa_ Some brewery in Africa seven
years_ And from there he told me, he went to Canada_
And from Canada, he went to California_ And that'
where he found out that this little brewery was for
sale_ He wanted to know about the climate_ Was i t
very cold here or hot or what? And they told him it
was very nice in Texas_ He didn't know nothing about
Texas_ So he came on down here_ And I think he leased
it for two years_ And then in 1914, he bought it_ He
bought the brewery_
HS: Did he bring his uncle to be brew master?
G: His nephew_ His nephew came later_ He wasn't here
right at that time_ Was Hoetzbeck here when beer was
legalized_ But he was a brew master_ He sent him back
to Germany to school_ Mr_ Spoetzel came from Germany
and he sent him back to school_ And he came back and
he was the brew master_
S: Well, it's a good German brew then_
G: Oh yes_
END OF TAPE I, Side 1, 45 minutes
Tape 1, Side 2
S: Joe, you mentioned some of the brew masters_ Could
you name them way back?
G: Well, the first brew master that I know of was Mr_
Spoetzel_ He was his own brew master, I guess_ But
27
MUELLER/GREEN
G: the first brew master that he had that I know
anything about was his nephew Mr_ Hoetzbeck_ He s ent
him back over to Germany_ Mr_ Gus came from over there
and he sent him back over there to school_ When he
came back, he was the brew master_ He was the brew
master from up until ___ well, he got sick ___ UP
until Mr_ Terpenski came_ When Mr _ Latcher and them
bought the brewery, they got Mr_ chester Terpenski_ He
was the brew master and he was the brew master up until
he retired_
So then Ben Husenman sent Mr_ Johnny Huebner to
school; brew mas ter school_ So Mr_ Huebner is the brew
master and manager of the brewery now_ Then they sent
another young man, Mr_ James Melker , they sent him to
school_ So he's the assistant brew master now_
S: How i s that name Melker spelled? Do you recall?
G: No sir, I wouldn't know how you spelled Melker_
James Melker_ His daddy was a Texaco man here at one
time_
S: Ed, let me ask you a final question_ In the course
of your years, you've seen this town grow and expand_
I'm sure in the old days it had a certain amount, a
small amount, of crime_ That is, horse thieving, I
don't know what it might have been _ But since the town
has grown to the population that it is now, do you see
much of an expansion in crime? I mean by that, aliens
coming across the border and narcotics; the use of
narcotics and moonshining_ I don't know Texas was ever
28
HUELLER/GREEN
S: big for moon shining, _ _
H: We had a pretty good share of it around here_
(laughter)
S: Well, could you tell me, has it changed? Has the
town changed much in that respect?
H: oh yeah_ They all quit when beer was legalized_
There used to be plenty of moonshine around this part
of country_
G: A lot of home brewed beerjI had one of the biggest
drunks in my life over that home brew_ So many people
made their own home brew_
H: It was pretty powerful sometimes_ It was 18, 20%_
S: How about apple jack? Did they have apple jack?
G: No_ They wasn't no apples around here_
S: But they had corn liquor, didn't they?
G: oh yes_ Corn liquor; rye; everything else_
HS: What's the crime around here?
G: There's not too much_ Not enough to amount to
any thing_
S: What type is there?
G: Once in a while some dopes come through here,
peddling dope _
S: Are they transients?
G: Yeah _
HS: What about thievery?
S: House_
G: Well, they have a little burglarizing around here
lately_ It's not too bad_ It's women folks_ They got
29
MUELLER/GREEN
G: 'em caught_ They caught two of 'em_ If your house
is open, they walk in there_ They got into two
houses- -Wagners and somebody else I believe_ Bev
Zappe_ Well, they finally got 'em locked up in Cuero_
They got into Gonzalez and they chased 'em out of
Gonzalez and they finally caught 'em_ Cuero police
caught 'em_ He was county deputy_ And they'd go in
there and they are either women or they are dressed
like women_ And they'd go in there_ First thing you
know, they'd go into a house and they'd look things
over_ They ain't nobody in there, they going to pick
up what they want; mostly jewelry and stuff_ There'd be
somebody in a van driving around. pick 'em up_ They
don't need no big items_ They go for small items_
They got caught with the stuff over in Cuero
about two miles west of Cuero_ I mean north of Cuero.
83_ I don't know whether they ever got out of jailor
not_
S: The jail was what? The county jailor the city
jail?
G: The county jail at Cuero_
HS: Do you have any unlawful aliens coming through;
working for people?
G: No_ We have no wet backs here_
HS: Were there other industries that were here that
are no longer here now? When you were first here?
G: We had a compress operating_ We had seven gins_
We had an oil mill_
30
MUELLER/GREEN
M: Cigar factory.
s: You do have a cigar factory?
G: No. Old building is still up there. On Ave. H.
Ehlers house now.
s: Is tobacco grown around here at all?
G: These farmers used to grow tobacco. Most of it was
used in pipes. But it wasn't for making cigars or
anything like that.
s: What's the big product in farming?
G: Now?
s: Yeah, now.
G: Most of it now is grain. Grain and cattle.
s: Maize?
G:
s:
HS:
That's right.
Wheat, probably. Corn.
Were you ever in the cigar factory?
like?
What was it
G: No mam, I never was in there. It was all handwork.
That old man had three daughters. They made most of
the cigars.
HS: Did they sell just to the local people?
G: No . Around to the different towns here. Made a
bunch of 'em and carried 'em around.
S: How much was a good cigar?
G: NickeL (laughter) Dime.
S: And how much was a good glass of beer?
G: Nickel.
S: Nickel. So for ten cents you could get a good
31
MUELLER/GREEN
S: cigar and a glass of beer.
G= You could buy a big hamburger for a nickel.
S: Fifteen cents got you set up for the day.
G: I used to shine shoes for a nickel. Whenever I'd
get to shine a pair of shoes, I'd go over and buy me a
nickel hamburger.
HS: What were your wages when you first started working?
G: At the brewery? I think I was getting thirty cents
a hour. That was good wages at that time. I worked for
a whole lot less than that. I put in eight hours a day,
six days a week, the pay was four dollars and fifty
cents for that whole week.
HS: could you make out on it?
G: You had to.
HS: There wasn't any welfare around here then.
G: No mam.
S: How much did you start out for?
G: I worked for eighteen dollars a month about sixteen
hours a day, seven days a week. About fifty cents a
day. That's all you could get. 'Til I moved to
mechanic. Made about thirty five, forty dollars.
S: People who either could not earn money through
having a job or were without food and had a family.
How did they subsist? Did they just farm?
G: Yeah. Had to be a tight fight.
HS: Did people help each other out?
G: Quite a bit.
HS: If they knew somebody needed food, would you help
32
MUELLER/GREEN
HS: each other out?
M: Quite a bit of that. And you know back in those days,
most of the stores, they run the farm. You were allowed so
much credit for a week on your crop; on your cotton. Joe used
to pick cotton for me.
S: What did you get paid, Joe, for picking cotton?
G: You got about fifty cents a hundred. Some of 'em paid
sixty-five; some of 'ern paid eighty five, round in there.
S: Did you have a bag over your shoulder that you carried
that would carry a hundred?
G: You had a sack and there was a strap on that sack and you
dragged that sack.
S : And that would carry what: a hundred?
G: Some of them sacks I guess you could almost have a
hundred pounds in one of 'em. You tromped it down real good.
You tromp it down. And some of them sacks was long. I guess
Mr. Mueller's would be around a hundred pounds. Either
seventy five or eighty pounds.
HS: How could you work with the temperature 110 degrees ~n
the summer time? Picking cotton.
G: We was just used to it.
S: I want to thank you two gentlemen, Ed Mueller and
Joe Green. I can't help but say Mean Joe Green.
(laughter) No more Satchel Paige . I want to thank you
for the very pleasant and informative interview that
we've had here.
END OF TAPE I, Side 2, 15 minutes
Tape I, Side 2
33