THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
INTERVIEW WITH: Lorraine O'Banion
DATE: November 11, 1993
PLACE: San Antonio, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Cheri Wolfe, Research Associate
TAPE I, Side 1
CW: This Cheri Wolfe. It is November 11th, 1993, and I'm sitting here talking with Mrs. Lorraine O'Banion in the home of her daughter, Mrs. Harriet Kelly, in San Antonio, Texas. And we're going to be talking about Mrs. O'Banion's life and her experiences during the Civil Rights Movement.
Ah, where were you born Mrs. O'Banion?
LO: I was born in Brenham, Texas.
CW: When, do you mind me asking?
LO: 1910.
CW: And you're...
LO: September 13th, 1910
CW: And, ah, your parents' names?
LO: Ah, Hattie Montgomery Robbins and Floyd Robbins.
CW: And what did they do?
LO: Well, my mother, ah, taught school and she worked in the home economics department - it was then Prairie View Agricultural and Normal, ah, School.
CW: So she taught college. She just didn't--
LO: Well, she just worked in the...in the, ah,the home economics 2
LO: department. At that time the girls wore uniforms, and they made uniforms. And that's where she worked.
CW: Tell me about growing up there.
LO: Growing up?
CW: Uh-huh.
LO: Well, ah, I was born in Brenham and, ah, my father was principal of the elementary school there - segregated, of course, at that time. And my, ah, maternal grandparents, ah, bought a ho...ah, moved from Oklahoma to Texas and bought a place across the county road, ah, north of Prairie View, Prairie View A&M, well, it was Normal and Industrial College then. It was right across the highway. We were north of Prairie View so his children could have the opportunity to go to school. And, ah, he was a watermelon farmer, and known as one of the watermelon kings of, ah, Hempstead, which is quite famous for watermelons. I guess you heard of that. But, ah, we, my sister-in-law who lived in Indiana called Prairie View Shangrila because it was an island within itself. It was in Waller County, and, ah, you had a Hempstead address, but Prairie View was entirely separate. Ah, most of the people who lived there were the people that lived, well. the people who lived around the, ah, school were farmers like my grandfather. And, ah, as the older people, ah, well, some of them raised cotton, but my grandfather never raised cotton; he raised watermelons. And he would try to get his crop ready to reach the Chicago market by July 4th. And, ah, as a little child I would stand and watch the wagons as they would go out of the gate up the hill, and as far as I could see. Ah, he also raised peanuts because he had cattle, and, 3
see...and LO: because we was so isolated each family were so isolated, each family was more less, ah, raise enough food to take care of themselves. Hogs, and slaughter cattle, and they only went to Hempstead, which was six miles away, to buy the staples and feed when they needed it. But, by and large, they were self-sufficient. And we had a smokehouse, you know, where the meat was cured, and at hog killing time the neighbors came and pitched in and helped. And if you needed to build a barn, or whatever, it was just a community where everyone helped each other. And then the...the surrounding farm community were very close to, ah, to Prairie View Normal and Industrial College. And it was just like one big family. There was a very close relationship. But as time went on, of course, the younger people left, as is the rule now, because there were no jobs or whatnot. But everybody who lived...in that... around that... around Prairie View and had a job, worked there.
CW: So is this the '30s that you're talking about when people left or, or earlier?
LO: Well, they began to leave. My uncles left, oh, long before the '30s; but, you know, coming on up, the pattern continued. And, ah, my...my aunt married a Prairie View professor, and she lived on the campus. All the people who worked close with the...with the college lived in little white houses that surrounded the campus. And they were, ah, you paid rent to the college. And you know, Prairie View is a branch of Texas A&M, at this time. Well, ah, let's see and...but my aunt's husband got a job at Booker T. Washington High School in Dallas, and they moved. And then my LO: mother and my father 4
separated when I was two years old. That's long before this. And when I was in sixth grade, my mother and I moved to Dallas.
CW: So this would have been what year?
LO: Ah, we moved to Dallas about...let's see, I finished high school in '29, so, ah, let's see...
CW: So about '23?
LO: Yeah. And, ah, after substituting over a long period of time, she finally got on regular, as a teacher, with Dallas public schools.
CW: Your mother?
LO: Yes. And my aunt taught in the county, and my uncle, of course, taught in the...ah, in the high school. Well, ah, my mother sent me to Howard, and I finished Howard in 1933. And came back in the middle of the depression. And I had trained to be a teacher, and the Board of Education had a rule that they couldn't hire two out of one family, so that left me with no employment. But, ah, the WPA had...had started and the relief, and there were just thousands of people who, you know, needed food, and clothing, and what not. So I was fortunate enough to get on with the Dallas County Relief Board, and I worked as a file clerk for a while. But because of my college education, ah, they gave me a scholarship to Lamm University School of Social Work, and, ah, when I came back...well, before I left, I was working as a social worker, but I hadn't had any training. But I went and took this scholarship and came back and worked for a while. And then, since I wasn't LO: going to get a job teaching, my mother decided to send me back to Atlanta so I could finish in social work. And when I went...I finished...Forester Washington was head of the 5
School of Social Work at that time; it's a part of Atlanta University now. And, ah, he guaranteed to get every graduate a job; and I finished in 1937 and went to Louisville to work in the health department, particularly with the Louisville Tuberculosis Association because, ah, Louisville had one of the highest TB death rate at that time in the country. And I went there right after the 1937 flood, and oh, it was just heartbreaking to see...drive through the city and see the devastation. And Louisville downtown is located along the Ohio River.
CW: I...I went to Kentucky for a while so, yeah, it's right by the Falls of Ohio.
LO: Aha, yeah. So the records that I had to go through were here in one of the buildings that had been flooded, and so, I had to wade in all that muck, and drag down all these mildewed books. But you...the work...I was called Secretary of Health Education. What you had to do was get the death certificates of the people who had died of TB and try to trace down the contacts. And then I had a movie machine, and I would go to the schools and churches and show movies and give talks. And then I would work in the clinic because at that time they...if a...a contact came, in he was fluoroscoped, and then if they found problems, it went on. Louisville had a...had a...Jefferson County had a very good tuberculosis hospital, and, ah, I worked there six years. In the meantime, my hus...the LO: man I married came to teach at Louisville Municipal College for one year, while the professor went away to get his doctorate. And I met him on a blind date. And he, ah, after this year was up, he got a job 6
at Prairie View, Texas, at college. At that time Prairie had changed its name to Prairie View, ah, A&M College. And we used to talk about Prairie View, and, ah, he's from Indiana and had a PhD in organic chemistry from Indiana University. And, ah, he acted like it was a foreign country. So he came down and stayed a year, while I stayed in Louisville. And then he came back to... he got a schol...fellowship...came back to IU [Indiana U.] and got his doctorate. And we were married. Ah, while I was having my engagement party the...the night that Pearl Harbor was bombed... but we got married in December 1941. And he went back to Prairie View, of course, to go to work; and I stayed in Louisville until I could, you know, get my job straight. Then I moved to Prairie View. My mother was still living in Dallas. And I when I went to Prairie View, I worked in the sociology department with Dr. Fuller for a year. And then I got pregnant, and my husband asked me if I would stop work and stay home and take care of the child. And... which I did. And, ah, then, ah, I had...that's my son, Charles O'Banion, who's a lawyer in Washington, D.C. And then, two years and nine months later, Harriet was born and I stayed home until she got out of kindergarten and was going to first grade. And, ah, Prairie View A&M College had its own elementary...I mean, elementary and high school, ah, because it was a laboratory for the student teachers. And, ah, they had asked me to work when I first LO: got there, and Elmer, my husband, always said no. But, ah, when Harriet got first grade, we built a home off- campus. People, at first, weren't allowed to move off campus. If you worked at Prairie View, you had to live on campus. But we were 7
one of the first ones to build a home. And, ah, she and my son had
to ride the bus; and once they came out...the principal came out,
said he just had to have a teacher. And I said, "Well, you have to
ask my husband." And to my surprise, he said yes. He said...because
at that time, the school had no lunchroom facilities for children
- you had to take a sack lunch. And he said, "Well, I'll buy you
a hot plate, and during the noon hour, they can come and you can give
them a hot lunch." So that's the way I started teaching.
CW: And this was about mid '50s?
LO: Huh?
CW: Was this about, ah, the mid '50s?
LO: This was about '53. Uh-huh. And, ah, at first I taught seventh
grade; and because my husband was a scientist, I became interested
in science. So I went, ah, to school...went to Prairie View, ah,
and got a degree in elementary education. And then, after that, my
husband began to have institutes sponsored and financed by the National
Science Foundation. So I went to those and qualified, got enough
credits to qualify as a science teacher. So after that I taught
science. And, ah, my husband, ah, was made head of the science
department. And, ah, my...both my children were born in the hospital
at Prairie View, and they both went to the Prairie View Training School.
And, ah, Charles graduated from LO: the Prairie View Training
School, but Harriet went to a private school in North Carolina and
did her senior work. And, ah, let's see, after that
my...the...Harriet, after she finished, she got a job as a science
teacher in Ft. Worth, and my son went to law school. And, ah, I
8
continued to teach, and my husband continued to teach. In the meantime, my mother, who lived in Dallas, would come and live with me during the winter, and while she was there she had a stroke. And she was a complete invalid. She couldn't talk, and I...we had nurse and made one of the bedrooms into a hospital room and took care of her. And in the middle of that my husband di... took sick and was diagnosed with having colon cancer and died in 1971. And my mother was still living, but she died in 1972. And I continued to live there until recently, when I had to have cancer surgery; and that's why I'm here with Harriet, because I can't stay down there by myself. But I still keep the home, and we go back and forward. So I continued to work until my son got out of law school, and I was trying to establish 20 years so I could get my retirement, which I did. And then I retired. And after that I would come backward and forward here and go to Washington to see him. And just live a leisurely life. And I...well, my husband was crazy about a farm, and we had 300 turkeys and about, oh, maybe 150 hogs and cattle. And that was his...what he would do after he came from teaching at Prairie View. And I tried to keep this after he died, but, ah, I sold the hogs first. Well, we persuaded him to discontinue the turkeys before he died. But after he died I sold the hogs, and then I kept the cattle for quite some time because it LO: was a nice income. But, ah, the man who works for me had a stroke, and he couldn't help. And I couldn't find anybody else, so I finally sold everything. So, ah, people who lived at Prairie View only went to Hempstead for staples, because Hempstead had a bad, ah, attitude and a bad relationship with minorities.9
CW: And this was when you were growing up there?
LO: Aha.
CW: This is when you were growing up there. Is this still true? LO: No; well, along because until very recently, I don't think a Spanish person was allowed to live there. Ah, in and around the area and, of course, the Black people who lived in Hempstead were servants. And, of course, the school was segregated and there were some teachers. But, ah, it was known the name for Hempstead is Six Shooter Junction. And I wished I had my history; they have a history of Waller County, and, ah, a lot of that would be in there, about how they lynched Black people...
CW: Well, I'm interested in your memories of it. Do you remember as a young girl?
LO: I remember hearing about it. See, because I was sheltered within this area around Prairie View.
CW: Yeah, and that's actually something I wanted to talk to you about because you said they called it Shangrila?
LO: Aha.
CW: Can you talk some more about that, why?
LO: Well, because everybody in Prairie View that you saw was Black. Occasionally, people came in from Texas A&M, because it was LO: a branch, to...they would inspect the records and whatnot. But it was Shangrila because it was a quiet, peaceful area, and the farmers were friendly and neighborly and there was close relationship with the college. Every year we'd have a Christmas party, and they would give everybody in the community a sack of fruit and nuts. And we'd 10
have a program. We'd get the children and train them. But, ah, that's all over and done with now. Because Prairie View has really changed since they moved the houses where the people lived. Most of the people who work there commute; and those of those of us who had bought homes and, ah, and built around the campus, ah, are retired and dying out. But, ah, until integration came, you rarely saw a White face on Prairie View campus unless you went to Hempstead, which I did sometime with my grandfather. We...six miles away and we'd ride in, ah, ah, surrey or wagon to get the supplies, and, ah, you didn't come in contact with the segregation. But I can remember when we would come to Prairie View to, ah, go to Hempstead to catch the train. 'Course when you get...the train stopped at Prairie View and you got on...you got in the segregated coach. But when you went to Hempstead, they had the separate waiting rooms, you know, and you still got in a segregated coach. And when I would leave Dallas to go to Howard, I would get...stay in a segregated coach until I got to Parsons, Kansas. And, ah, then you could go in the regular coach, but when you came back you had to get out. And so the way we got around that, they would give you berth, but it had to be a drawing room. They'd give you lower 13; you couldn't have an upper berth or lower berth. And this was much better, because lower 13 had space for about four people, as I remember it. It was entirely private. It had a bathroom and everything. So, ah, that's the way I would go, ah, to school. And, ah, the relationship in Hempstead, with the stores, wasn't good at all because there was...when...when you got...when we moved to Prairie View we were, ah, told certain stores not to go in.11
CW: This is when you and your husband moved back to Prairie View?
LO: Aha. Certain stores not to go in. Ah, there is...there was... And, you know, it was general practice that they didn't want you to use the restrooms. And so thing to ask was, when you drove in, "Do you have a restroom?" If they said, "No", you'd keep going and wouldn't buy the gas. But if they said, "Yes", you said, "I'll take a fill-up." But one of the teachers at Prairie View went into a filling station in Hempstead, and the man insulted her, and, of course, she...she told him off, and he slapped her. And that was one of the places you were told not to go. And then another grocery store. But, ah, you only went there when you had to have supplies because you baked your own bread, you had your meat and whatnot. And Prairie View didn't have...the, ah, college didn't have any stores. They had, ah, a place where the students could buy candy, cookies, and ice cream and things like that. but no groceries. And, of course, the fast food area hadn't come into being.
CW: Why is that? You'd think there would be Black-owned businesses there?
LO: Financially, they couldn't be supported. Now, when the boycotts started, ah, this... You see, you had to secure your job, you couldn't...a teacher couldn't participate in a boycott. But we belonged to the, ah, Episcopal Church, which was also...which was also segregated. There's an Episcopal Church in Hempstead, but the one that I'm talking about is in the Prairie View community. Our priest and several other priests led students who had, ah, caught the fever of the general boycotts that was going on among college 12
students throughout the United States, I mean, throughout the South. But this was much, much later. As you know, ah, Texas was always late getting started like they were with the Emancipation. And our priest, Father James Moore, led a group of students over to, ah, picket in Hempstead. And, of course, they were all arrested.
CW: Where did they picket?
LO: They picketed the steak house. See, because you couldn't buy any food unless you, ah, they considered you...they'd sell you something from the back door. And they picketed this steak house, and then it was a general boycott. You weren't supposed to go to Hempstead at all, to buy anything. If, ah, if you did, they begged you not to go into the store. And so, long before that, though, my husband had plans to move his bank account from Hempstead Citizens Bank over to Guarantee Barn Bank in Waller, because the people refused to call you Mr. or Mrs. or Dr. or anything. It was always your first name. So they...and then there was a group who organized a, a kind of a food bank, and they would drive to Houston LO: and buy food and bring it back to Prairie View.
CW: Is this at the time of boycott?
LO: This was before the boycott.
CW: All right.
LO: Well, du...during the boycott, too, because we had to have food. And we went...most of the people went over to Waller to a store called S&N Supermart - S&N - and the people were Christian people and very, very kind to Black people and encouraged their trade. And so did Guarantee Bank...Barn Bank. But, ah, the boycott lasted; and finally 13
they gave in and allowed... I guess there are some...some still...some places there where you aren't welcome.
CW: How long did the boycott last?
LO: I don't know, ah... But I'm going to give you some names that can give you some more much more pertinent information. Because I was sheltered. Had never, you know, faced any of that.
CW: Was the priest White or Black?
LO: White. We have our first Black priest at this church now, because Black priests -Episcopal priests - don't want to come to Texas. There are plenty of them. I went to a church in Washington, D. C., and saw three Black priests all at once. But I guess that's because there aren't too many Black Episcopal churches, and our church, until very recently, was, ah, we weren't a parish.
END OF TAPE I, Side 1 - 30 Minutes
TAPE I, Side 2
CW: You were saying, you don't see how you're going to survive...
LO: As a...as a parish. Because, like me, I'm the oldest; and most of the people who, ah, belonged to the church were the retired...were the people who lived around the campus, and now most of them are retirees. And many, many of them are dead, and the rest of them are ill. And except for the Bahamians, who come from, you know, as students, we don't have any young people.
CW: Did you participate in the boycott?
LO: No! I said I lived a sheltered life.
CW: Ah...
LO: My husband didn't either, because if you did you were likely 14
to lose your job!
CW: Even at...at a Black-owned college like that or a Black college?
LO: Because it's A&M - the Black part of...of A&M - and it's...it's segregated and A&M had control.
CW: Did the people in the community think badly of him for not joining them?
LO: Well, they wouldn't join either. You see Prairie View is Shangrila, and the students were the ones from Prairie View. No adults, no teachers or anything.
CW: But in the earlier boycott? Right; within...wasn't...maybe I'm getting confused...the boycott that you were talking about, I thought was before the student movement or not?
LO: Oh, no. No. The general ah... Oh, you mean, when I told you about the gasoline attendant slapping the woman, and we not going LO: into certain stores?
CW: Yes.
LO: Well, no, you didn't go there. No, but it wasn't realized, I don't think, as a general boycott because you went to other stores. But when the students and the priest led the boycott, you don... didn't go there at all. So, let's see where was I?
CW: Ahh. When we were talking about the Episcopal Church, 'cause I was interested in the role of the priest. It sounds like they were really instigators of this...
LO: Well, ah, Christianity, I think, stands for a lot of things. And I think this priest I'm talking about, he is one of the most dedicated of people that I have come in contact with. Ah...when my 15
husband was ill, he would come to the house every day and have prayer. And he supported me, and I think I would have lost my mind with both my mother and my husband being ill, if it hadn't been for him. And he was just interested in doing the right thing and standing for the right thing.
CW: Ah, did he...in the Episcopal Church you have sermons or talks, I guess, on Sunday. Did he talk about some of these issues - the civil rights issues - during that time, from the pulpit?
LO: No, because I would think the church service is supposed to be sacred. And I always think it's very sacred. It isn't like that now. The priest we have now would as soon get up and talk about anything, and politics has creeped i in a little bit, because they'll tell you about the elections. And, ah, not say directly who to vote for, but tell you some of things that they think you should LO: know. And that wasn't like that then. Now Father Moore might have had meetings outside the church service, but not in connection with the church service. You see, the Episcopal Church has a college group; and they would meet as a group. And that might have been talked about in that, but I didn't know, because I just didn't take part.
CW: And when you said that was relatively late. That things in Texas were later than other parts of the country. About when are we talking about?
LO: Well, ah, I think...ah, well, I'm going by the Emancipation Proclamation because, you see, it was just June...June 19th from January when Texas got the message. And then, ah, when school 16
integration came about, ah, Texas and other states sort of, you know, gave it a deaf ear. And then when separate but equal started, well, they opened the schools and, ah, two Blacks went over. But, ah, that was late, and, ah, let's see what else was late. Oh, the voting, ah. You see, for years they kept Prairie View College students from voting, and they filed case after case and finally won. So now they can vote. And in the meantime, oh, about...I don't know the exact date, but Prairie View became a city, a small city. And the students were allowed to vote, and the people who lived in the...in the area, the boundaries of the city. Of course, voting for the city council and the city hall.
CW: So you really needed these students who didn't have a job to lose to come in and start making changes or fighting for some civil rights...because you all had a lot at stake.
LO: Yeah.
CW: Ah, what else happened?
LO: Well, what do you mean?
CW: Ah, after the students led the boycott and, ah...
LO: Well, the stores opened up and things became a little bit better. And you could go into the restaurants and eat. But, ah, a policy doesn't mean anything. It's the waitress and the people who...who contact you with their body language and their treatment that, you know, determines whether, to me, whether you're welcome.
CW: Whether you're welcome. Right. And did that change?
LO: It hasn't changed now, no.
CW: Were you...tell...it sounds like Hempstead was really very 17
conservative and very, ah...
LO: It's still is!
CW: Ah, were you afraid? I mean, are there...was there like a KKK group or was there any violence down there?
LO: Well, we were never bothered with KKK, ah, at least we weren't. Ah, but some people were.
CW: Can you tell me about it? What happened or...?
LO: Well, I really don't know enough to be specific about anything. But, ah, the...long before this time, ah, Black men were lynched, tarred and feathered, and castrated. That that was back in...in the earlier times.
CW: Well, you were saying that you had memories as a young girl. What do you remember?
LO: Uh-huh. I remember that people were very, very afraid. And LO: ah, they tried to get into Hempstead and get what they needed, and get out as quickly as possible. But, ah, I have a name here I want to give you. I think, ah, Mr. Houston has given you Dr. Wilfolk's [?] name, hasn't he?
CW: Harriet did. So I'm going to give him a call.
LO: Ah, now Dr. Wilfolk is retired, and he, ah, wrote the history of Prairie View and, ah, this Leroy Singleton is...ah, lives in Hempstead. And he was the first Black mayor; so you know Hempstead has changed a lot. But one of the interesting things is...of course, you know the Whites...when we were segregated, the White schools were always better than the Black schools because we got the old books, we got the old desks, the old equipment. When I was a science teacher, 18
I would order the things, they would tell you, and when we went...when we integrated, I went over in the storeroom and just found things that I had just ordered that they never gave me.
CW: What was that like for you, when you...when you integrated? I mean, you had to give up, I guess, your school and your school name?
LO: Well, see, they had built inferior structures for the Black students. And I remember when we moved in this elementary school that they built, ah, the superintendent - I can see him now - standing in the hall and the children were carrying all these heavy books from room to room. And we were asking for lockers, and he said, "I'll never give you lockers." And as soon as they integrated, that's the first thing they did. And, of course, they LO: put in a cafeteria. And what...they never thought when they were building these structures that they would have to use them. And, ah, in Hempstead the school, ah, that they built for Black people is now used, you know, by both groups. And, ah, they built the high school...and they built a new high school in Hempstead. But in our area they took our school and turned it into a, ah, junior high school at first. Then they got...the parents objected to the kids coming on the Black campus. Prairie View is integrated, but it's still predominately Black. And so, the schools that they have built have been outside of this area. And some of them have...don't have enough students to really keep open. And so...but the people, ah, at...the Black people went to the school board. See, they closed our school for a while, and said it needed more repairs, and so this last year they opened it up again. CW: Ah, did it take a while for integration 19
of schools to come to Hempstead, and was there a fight about it?
LO: Well, ah, yes and no. It was sort of, ah, disguised...like it wasn't an open fight. See, when they said, "separate but equal" you'd go in your classroom in a segregated school and about two children a day would come in with slips to go to the White school.
CW: What do you mean they would come with slips? That's the first time I heard that.
LO: Well, in order to transfer. It was really a transfer slip. "Separate but equal"...you're going to leave this school and go into the same grade in the White school. And so, that continued until they, ah, they...United States Supreme Court said there was LO: no such thing as "separate but equal". And then the whole thing, ah, they all went to the White school. They were bussed there.
CW: Okay. So before this - the 1954 Supreme Court decision - some Black students were attending the White schools with these slips?
LO: "Separate but equal" was the first decision, and they went with the slips then. But when "separate but equal" was nullified, they all went.
CW: And did you go as a teacher?
LO: Yes.
CW: Got transferred? Did you want to go?
LO: Ah, well, you see our school had been integrated and White students came to this school on the campus.
CW: Oh, yeah.
LO: Came to this school on the campus. But I was transferred over to Waller. No, I didn't want to go because it was near home, and 20
I'd been there and it was like going into a new environment. But I loved my work, and I enjoyed it and got along very well.
CW: So, really, you didn't have any problems - you personally - during the whole integration?
LO: Ah no, no, I had a very good relationship with the students. The only problem, which never materialized, which could have, Houston [Hempstead] built some homes in our, ah, school district for boys and girls who were problems. And - dope, stealing, and whatnot. And they were eligible to come to our school. And once, one of the girls had a seizure in my classroom. And I knew what LO: was wrong with her and all the children did. And I reported it to the principal, and, unfortunately, I said she had a seizure. And, of course, that was oohh. He said, "No, no, no, no." And she was yanked out of there and taken to the doctor. Then I had boys who would just come into the classroom and just sleep, sleep, sleep. You knew it wasn't normal behavior. But, ah, never really any real confrontation. After he...they denied what was wrong with the girl, I had sense enough to keep my mouth shut and not pursue it, because that wasn't my job.
CW: Do you think that integrating the schools was a good thing?
LO: Not for...
CW: ...for Blacks.
LO: ...for Blacks. And, ah, in that area because...now other places I can't talk about. But, see, our teachers...you couldn't work in a school in Prairie View unless you had a master's degree or were working on one. So they were better trained. And when I went to 21
Waller to teach, the lady who was my aide, ah, hadn't finished high school. And those teachers, ah, some of them, were just working on college degrees. And if they had college, ah... not all of them were required to have master's degrees. And the students, you see, ah...the White students had not been exposed to the culture that the Black students had been exposed to. And so...
I know one of my disheartening experiences was, I was chairman of the Book Selection Committee for the sciences, and I selected books, you know, like I had been covering. And, ah, they wouldn't accept them. And the science book, they wouldn't use, ah, or used LO: as little as possible. And they would...and if they did, it was, "You read, you read next, you read next." And they would take the health book and use it as a reading lesson, and the children... when we first went over - our students first went over there - all three of the...the top honors graduating from high school were Blacks. And then it gradually went down, down, down because when I...and then, ah, the, ah, White teachers didn't take the interest in the Black students that they used to. We used to take kids and when they'd take the test in September - the achievement test - we would have raised them two or three grades. And I had one or two students to, ah, be in the 99 percentile. But it wasn't good for the Black student. And then every time a Black teacher would retire, they would replace them with...
CW: ...a White one?
LO: Yeah.
CW: Was...did the Black community protest or did they have any...22
LO: Well, if you're uncomfortable in a job, I believe you're going to seek one where you are going to be comfortable. And that might have been one of the reasons. And then the Board of Education, the voting, we finally got, ah, one Black person on the Board. But, you see, they would be out-voted. But later on, the president of the school board was a Black, but she didn't have any power because, ah...there weren't enough people to vote for things that she would probably think would be best for all concerned. Not that she'd be partial to Blacks. The economy is so bad around there now, you know. The farmers haven't raised any crops, and the LO: employment is...unemployment is very big. Now that Prairie View is integrated, the White people, ah, to a large extent, have the top jobs, you know, in maintenance. And then, ah, they are contracted out. And the contractors bring in their crews. And that takes away from it, because everybody who lived around Prairie View who wanted a job, more or less could get one.
CW: So, they would bring in White workers now or...?
LO: Spanish and White. There's some Blacks. I guess they bring in the same crews that they have other places.
CW: As the result of desegregation, it sounds like business - the business community - was really reflected because there wasn't much of one to begin with. I mean, you're all always going to Hempstead.
LO: Well, after the boycott in Hempstead, one of the professors opened a grocery store in Prairie View, which was very thriving and a very good store. But he died, and his wife wasn't able to maintain the Black...23
CW: What was his name?
LO: Fuller. Harry Fuller.
CW: What was the grocery store called?
LO: Ah, Fuller's Market, I believe.
CW: And no one came along to open another one, since that one ...
LO: Oh, yes, there's some little, little ones. There's one open there just recently opened. And then one that's more or less like a Quik Stop that's there now. But, ah, the what you...the merchandise that they have is for students who run in to get LO: something. And the prices are...
CW: ...higher.
LO: ...higher.
CW: So right in the...during the Civil Rights Movement there was...you...the Black community boycotted White businesses, and in some cases opened their own. Which lasted for a while, it sounds like.
LO: Well, there was only the one store in Prairie View that opened. That then there were fish markets and places like that, which lasted for a while. Yes. But because of the economy...and students don't have a great deal of money; ah, if they have money, it usually goes for a car.
CW: Ah, and we talked a little about religion, about the role of the priest and the community, ah, within the movement. Tell me, one of the other things I'm interested in is, ah, social organizations. I mean, it seems like you've described a very segregated...when you were growing up and even when you moved back here as a adult, it was 24
like a very segregated lifestyle. You went to church, you know. I assumed your friends were Black. Did that change any?
LO: No. Now we have one White member of our church, and we have had another one. But, ah, I don't know whether he died, or whether he put his membership some place else. But this one White member is married to a Black woman.
CW: How about in like frater...fraternal organizations and sororities?
LO: Well, they have all the sororities and fraternities, but they're Black.
CW: Ah, and have remained so...
LO: Yes.
CW: All this time?
LO: Well, I don't know, now. Since Prairie View is integrated, if ...they may have some others in the group. But I think they're basically Black.
CW: Do you think that's a good thing? That we continue to live very segregated lives?
LO: You mean, do I think that a very segregated life is a good thing?
CW: Yeah, I mean, the fact that, you know, that here as a society...
LO: No, I don't think a very segregated life is a good thing.
CW: Why do you suppose we keep doing that?
LO: Well, I wish I knew. You can, ah, get a young child - three, four, five and six in kindergarten - you don't notice that. But there's something that the parents instill in them, and as they grow up in the grades it...and if we could find out how to correct that, 25
we would have...could be well on our way. And then you take, ah, children in high school who are friends. When they get out and go to college, if they had a Black friend most of the time they drift away.
CW: Ah, what is sort of...as adults, I mean, we...we know better, you know. We...you know what I mean? Even as adults, we choose... CW: which friends we choose are usually like, my friends are mostly White and I assume that yours are mostly Black. And, you know, the organizations that you belong to and stuff are probably mostly Black.
LO: What...I have met two people who are White that I think have absolutely no prejudices. One is the priest I told you about. Another one is the woman who - Jean Jones - she has absolutely no prejudices. And, ah, she's been to my house and stayed with me. And I have other White friends, but, you know, you don't feel the closeness. And you don't feel that's it...it's returned. Now Harriet, here, has a different relationship because she has many, many White friends. And they live in a broader world than I did. Because mine was quite small.
CW: Ah, in your experience, then, you would assume that there's some prejudice and you assume that your background is different, so do you mean you don't have as much in common with Whites?
LO: No, I was never prejudiced, and I feel like I have a lot in common with Whites because when I meet Whites I don't have any trouble communicating with them.
CW: Yeah. Well, it's that for me...I think that an interesting thing that I started thinking about now that I'm doing research about the 26
Civil Rights Movement and thinking about how...how we continue to live our lives. We're in a society that is still in many ways...
LO: But I...but I think it would be better if White people and Black people could have more relationships with each other. But LO: the average White person has a stereotype in his mind. And the average Black person has a stereotype in his mind. And usually that stereotype is based on experience. Whereas the White stereotype is based on something he has heard. Because when my husband first went to...from Indi...from Madison, Indiana, to Indiana University, he was in a class, and one of the White students got up and said he didn't want to sit by him because it had been instilled in him, you know, that he would be in danger or have some kind of disease or something. And I think one of the worst things that has happened to Black students, now that integration has come, the counselor will too many times discourage Black students from going into certain fields.
CW: You mean like professional ...
LO: Yes.
CW: So that stereotype of prejudice is coming out ...
LO: It's more sophisticated now.
CW: Yeah. Do you think that there was a difference between the Civil Rights Movement or what happened in the rural areas, as opposed to what happened in the urban areas?
LO: Yes, because urban people are less afraid.
CW: Ah, can you talk about that? Why do you think they are?
LO: Well, they have police protection, and they are large in numbers, and they are not isolated like sitting ducks.27
CW: So you're suggesting that in the rural areas you have a lot to lose when they know where to come find you.
LO: Yeah. Uh-huh, uh-huh.
CW: So things are much more conservative and...I mean, I'm putting words in your mouth...
LO: Yes, they're much more conservative. Most rural people are very conservative.
CW: Did that have anything to do, you think, with young Blacks moving to the cities or moving away?
LO: No, I think it was economics. You had to have a job.
CW: Do you think that if they could have, they would have stayed even though ...
LO: If they could've found a suitable job. But, you see, farming
has changed. Machinery came in and...and there weren't as many people needed, because Black people used to have big families so that they could go to cotton patch, and then when the cotton picker came in and the corn picker and the peanut baler and............ and, you see, that just cut people...and the ditch diggers - the post-hole diggers. You used to see people working at clean up fence.
END OF TAPE I, Side 2THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
INTERVIEW WITH: Lorraine O'Banion
DATE: November 11, 1993
PLACE: San Antonio, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Cheri Wolfe, Research Associate
TAPE 2, Side 1
CW: This is Tape 2 of an interview with Mrs. Lorraine O'Banion. And we were talking about the fact that in rural areas people were a lot more conservative.
LO: Yes.
CW: And you were talking about how that affected the Civil Rights Movement.
LO: Well, ah, you had to have enough support and sponsors, and you see, rural people didn't have as much to offer and in that respect as, ah, people in the cities. Because the NAACP was very strong in, ah, cities, and they gave support. But, ah, if you belonged to the NAACP, it was not a rural group. You belonged to one that was the city's. And, of course, that, ah, didn't give you much support if you were standing out there protesting, ah, in a rural area.
CW: Were you a member of the NAACP?
LO: Yes.
CW: But you didn't feel like you could call upon them to help with any of these issues in Hempstead?
LO: Oh, yes! Everybody felt that.
CW: Can you think of some times when you needed to do that, you needed 2
their help?
LO: No.
CW: Ah, but you could have it, so that that's an important point...
LO: Oh, yes.
CW: ...of how you felt about it.
LO: Well, that's why how the NAACP got all the cases, you know. They were reported.
CW: Ah, boy, changing that tape sort of blocked my train of thought here about what we were talking about. Tell me about Juneteenth celebrations when you were growing up.
LO: When I was growing up, well...Brenham, Texas, is noted for its Juneteenth celebrations. It was then. People would come from miles and miles around. And that one day you could get the parks. And there was barbecue and all kinds of food and, ah, pop and things. And the children looked forward to it because it just meant they felt free. Now when we moved to Dallas, ah, I can't remember the Juneteenth being as important as it was in Brenham. But, you LO: know, the Dallas County Fair is held in Dallas. Well, out of all the Black people in Dallas, you could go only one day. And this...the Black schools would let out, and sometimes my mother and I would stand in line for half an hour trying to get on a ride or to do something. And it was very cruel because just that one day, and the rest of the time you couldn't go.
CW: Was this on Juneteenth?
LO: No, this was Dallas County Fair. I said that Juneteenth, I can't remember being that important in Dallas. They had parades, but 3
nothing like they had in Brenham.
CW: They sort of functioned in the same way. So, one day when the rules were different, you know, you could go to the park, you could go to the fair, something like that. So, go ahead and talk about that. The Juneteenth in your experience was much more important in rural areas than in the urban ones.
LO: I can't say that because, ah, I wasn't in the...in the urban ones. And Houston, ah, which is just 50 miles from us, still has, ah, parades and big Juneteenth celebrations.
CW: Was there still a big Juneteenth celebration when you moved back with your husband as an adult?
LO: In Houston?
CW: No, ma'am. In Prairie View and around Brenham.
LO: Oh, Brenham? They still had it.
CW: Did it change any, ah, around the time of the Civil Rights Movement?
LO: I really don't know.
CW: Did you keep celebrating it?
LO: The Juneteenth? Did I keep celebrating it? Well, ah, no, ah, after I grew up and went to Howard and graduated. No; I respected it, but I didn't go out and get in a parade or anything.
CW: Ah, do you mind me asking why not? Did going to Howard have changed your...
LO: Oh, no, no. It just distanced me from that. And then it wasn't convenient, see. I lived at Prairie View and had two children to get ready and my husband was working, and Juneteenth wasn't a 4
holi...may or may not have been a holiday.
CW: I was interested a while ago when you characterized your life in Prairie View around the time of theCivil Rights Movement as very sheltered.
LO: Yes.
CW: Do you mind talking some more about that?
LO: Well, ah, I could drive, but my husband never felt safe with me driving because he said I'd be more interested in what was happening to the children than I was the highway. And I went to LO: church in Prairie View, and I...when we went to Houston, he was always with me and we went shopping. And if I went to Hempstead, much of the time I sat in the car and he did the shopping.
CW: And in terms of what was going on around the student movement and stuff, because he wasn't involved then. I mean, you were at home with kids. You really didn't ...
LO: Well, see, he couldn't be involved because, like I told you, he might have lost his job.
CW: Sure, I didn't mean that as a criticism. I just meant, ah, the reality was, ah...
LO: And, you see, at that time, ah, before integration, if a person wanted to go to a professional school he wasn't admitted into anything in Texas. They paid your tuition to some other school. And many of the Prairie View students went to Maharie and to other places. Maharie, in Nashville.
CW: Yeah, the out-of-state tuition thing that they...
LO: And that was the same thing for graduates students, anything 5
that you wanted to do.
CW: Did there continue to be much of campus movement for civil rights in Prairie View after the students were organized to boycott?
LO: Yes, they, for some reason, just last, last year, they - or maybe it was the year before last - they went through the records of the voting of students and accused some students of voting illegally and arrested them. And the students marched on Hempstead.
CW: Just last year?
LO: Either last year or the year before.
CW: Oh.
LO: And, ah, I happened to...and then they deci...you know, they have pre-registration voting now, and you don't have to have a reason. And I had gone to pre-register, and all, and there were all these TV stations from Houston around there, and I knew something was happening. And I barely got out of the building and pulled over across the street, when I guess about 300 Prairie View students marched up to register - to pre-register. And, ah, they were very nervous, but they finally agreed not...to let these kids out of jail and not indict them. What had happened is, they had moved and hadn't changed their address. You know, how students move from place to place.
CW: And you said that, ah...that, ah, that they tried to keep students from voting, I guess all along?
LO: Oh, yeah.
CW: How did they did they...did they use that same thing about your address or how did they do it?
LO: I don't know what they actually used, but they got away with 6
it for years. Well, they said that they weren't legal residents.
CW: Did your life...did your life change as a result of the Civil Rights Movement? I mean, I know it did in terms of where you taught and in your professional life. But, I mean, I guess,your personal life. How did how did it affect you?
LO: Well, I felt free to go in stores and shop. Because at one time, you know, you bought something but you couldn't try it on. You couldn't try on a hat, and, ah, the clerks, ah...many of them didn't seem to want to wait on you. But after that, you know, you felt free to go in and felt comfortable shopping. And if you got a clerk that you...that didn't want to be bothered with you, you just went to somebody else. And one thing that clerks don't know, when they see a Black person walk...come into the store, they usually came there to buy something. Whereas, I've seen White women make a clerk get out just any number of pairs of shoes. But when I go into a store, I have in my mind what I want. I'm not just giving the clerks some busy work. And within less than a half an hour, I can get what I want and pay for it and get out of there. But that's one of my pet activities, is watching people. And I'd LO: go in a store with Harriet, we'd just...we get...we just bought that Lazy-Boy chair. And I knew exactly what I wanted when I went in there. But there were two or three people in there who just took up people's time and had to see every chair and sit in it and whatnot.
CW: It sounds...do you think that's kind of a hold-over from the days when you wanted...when you had to go to Hempstead...you wanted to get and get out.7
LO: No, I'm just like that. I just don't like to waste people's time.
CW: Ah, well, there's something else that popped into my head for a moment. We talked a little bit about, ah, the fact that within the schools there were some good sides to integration and some bad sides. Do you see that, ah, when we look at the Civil Rights Movement as a whole that there have been some ...
LO: Oh, oh, some good sides yes, because, ah, kids whether they accept it or not are exposed to the same thing. And the library is available. See, we didn't have a library in the...the segregated -nothing you could call a library, maybe some few books and shelves. And they have the, ah, cafeteria, school cafeteria. And they get the hot lunch, and then they're eligible for the free lunch, the supplemental lunch if payment is...if their parents can't afford LO: it.
CW: Well, how about out...outside of school and just sort of life in general? You know, we talked about how it's different in terms of where...how you feel about shopping and such. I guess what I'm interested in is...is usually when we, when Whites think...when I think about the Civil Rights Movement I think about all of the advances that we made. But as I talk to people in the Black community, I'm learning that there was some costs to that community, and that's what I'm...I'm really...
LO: Well, when you live in a rural area like I do, when you go to the bank, they know who you are. And when you go in the stores, they know who you are. And I like to go in antique shops, and as soon as I walk in there the lady will say, "How are you, Mrs. O'Banion? 8
Look around and see what we have that you didn't...we didn't have when you were here." And it's just that personal contact that you feel in a...in a rural area. Now, going in a bank and having everybody know what your name is, is quite unusual. And knowing your account number, so that you don't have to have any problem.
CW: Ah...
LO: And then, having been a teacher, a lot of the people who are working in those places, I taught. 'Cause I say, "You'll have to LO: tell me what your name is 'cause when I taught you, you didn't have a beard and long hair."
CW: So you still feel really a part of that, very much part of that community...
LO: Aha.
CW: ...down there? Ah, what do...one of the things I've been interested in is, ah, is certain graveyards and death practices. Did that change at all after desegregation?
LO: Ah, well, ah, there, it's creeping in, the changes. But right - you might be interested in this - across on part of Prairie View's land is an old graveyard cemetery. And they are now trying to do something about finding what they can of the graves and making it, ah, making it opened so that they're putting the historical marker up. They've been working on that. And, ah, you might be interested in that. You could, ah, learn something about that if you wanted to. But that Singleton Funeral Home is the funeral home in Hempstead. And every Black person that I know, has been buried there, because the White undertakers wouldn't accept Black bodies. And it's still 9
that way now. I don't know of, ah, a Black body that they have buried, even today. But they did...when this, ah, before-need...the burial policies before-need, you can sign up and...and say you how much you want to pay for your LO: funeral... came about, we began to get, ah, circulars from the White undertakers. And you could take the insurance, and I suppose if you had the insurance they would bury you. I don't know that though.
CW: So they tried, you know, once...once integration was a fact, they reached out to the Black community but it's ...
LO: I don't know to such a great extent, but I mean, you know, ah, insurance is different than...
CW: Were you aware of Martin Luther King's teachings during that time?
LO: Yeah, very much so. Ah, I remember...well, in the...in the classrooms at that time, we'd always have an opening before you started the classes and the kids could tell news and events, and they were very much aware of what Martin Luther King was trying to do. And I always remember when we heard over the radio that he had been killed, it just was silence, silence throughout the whole segregated school. Some kids were weeping.
CW: So even that young they knew...
LO: Yeah.
CW: Do you think that he was an inspiration for ...
LO: Oh, yeah, for everybody.
CW: What about the the Black Panthers and the somewhat CW: militant...?10
LO: I think that, as conservative as we were, we thought that they were sort of off-base. And really, you see, the news is so censored that the papers we see are quite different - and read -from those that you saw where the action was really taking place. Because that's one reason I love to go to Washington, D.C., and read the Washington Post. Ah, it's so different from any paper, and it has a lot of Black, Black news in it.
CW: Was there...I'm sorry, go ahead.
LO: And the radio stations down here and in this area, you seldom see a Black person. And, you know, and there...usually there's a White and a Black, and the Black...the White...the Black is usually is the...the...
CW: ...anchor?
LO: Aha.
CW: Were there any Black newspapers in, around Prairie View...
LO: Yeah. I want to show you this one.
CW: ...getting that? I was interested in how the local media, you know, dealt with all these issues that were coming. I mean, when you picked up the paper, was there news of a boycott?
LO: Oh, yeah. Now there is no Black paper, but Prairie View University students published The Panther, a college newspaper.
CW: Was that a... yeah, thanks. I want to make sure. Ah, back then, when all this stuff was going on and the students were active, did everybody read The Panther?
LO: Oh, yeah.
CW: And was it covering the...the events we're talking about? Do 11
you know if any of those old newspapers are still around?
LO: The Panther? I'm sure that they have kept the copies. I really couldn't say. Prairie View has a library and, ah, they recently enlarged it, and so I imagine you could find out some information there.
CW: I was just wondering if you...did you...were they covered in the same way in the Waller County News Citizen as they were covered in the...
LO: Oh, no.
CW: I didn't think so. How was that?
LO: Well, they...they could...the Waller News Citizen would give one side and The Panther would give another side. And then they have a lot of those free throw-around papers; and I can't remember that very many of them were in existence at that time, but they, ah, often have a lot more news now than that paper, because you have to pay and this...this news is more or less put free news in there.
CW: Ah, during the Civil Rights Movement, did people outside of the college community read The Panther. I mean, did farmers or other Blacks in the community?
LO: Oh, yeah. They put it out, ah...you see, the...the, ah, paper was put out in the post office on the campus, and it's free to pick up. And if you went out there, you could. We who lived in the community had had rural routes, but not all of us. Some of us had to have boxes in the Prairie View post office. And you go up there, and you pick up a paper or whatever was available.
CW: I guess what I was getting at was that you think it's fair to 12
say that The Panther was really sort of the Black voice or the Black newspaper that members of the Black community...
LO: Oh, yeah.
CW: And I have another question for you, which was...I'm interested in the way Mexican-Americans were treated during this time and whether you felt any kinship with them during the Civil Rights Movement?
LO: There weren't very many there. Seeing a Spanish person was ...was rare.
CW: So it really wasn't an issue?
LO: So now it's very different. There are numbers of them. And, see, they have drifted in to...to do the menial work that Black LO: people won't do. Two-to-one, if you have somebody to do lawns and, ah, clean floors, they are Spanish.
CW: And when we were talking about, during the Civil Rights Movement when integration became a factor back then in the school, was there much a movement in neighborhoods? Because it sounds like before that, Prairie View was pretty much Black and Hempstead was White. And were there any sort of mixing in terms of where people lived?
LO: In Hempstead, probably. But, see, in Prairie View all the land around the college was...was owned mostly by Blacks. Off to the east there were some...some White farmers, but there was never much, no mixing.
CW: Is there today?
LO: Huh?
CW: Is there today?
LO: No.13
CW: Ah, so I guess still another case of how we continue to live or at least in that area very, very separate ...
LO: Yes, very separate.
CW: Blacks. Ah...
LO: But, now, look, in Waller, which is a little town five miles going toward Houston, ah, in answer to...I guess the churches have LO: some Black members.
CW: Hmm. That's surprising. Would people with more money [who] could afford to, ah...
LO: I really don't know. I wouldn't think so.
CW: Ah, and were you aware, or involved with politics at that time? You were talking about the woman at the school. The Blacks couldn't get elected to the school board, I wondered if single member districts were an issue?
LO: Well, at one time, you see, you had to have this, ah, had to pay a fee to vote.
CW: The poll tax.
LO: Yes. And I worked in booths, ah, where we registered people to...to vote.
CW: Did it take a while for there to be Black candidates?
LO: Yes. Uh-huh.
CW: Well, I don't know... Oh! One other thing. I wanted to ask about Dallas, you know. When you moved as a little girl or in sixth grade from Hempstead to Dallas. Was life different for you -I mean, as a Black child at that, in between those two places?
LO: Oh, yes. More people. Went to a school that had two...two brick 14
buildings.
CW: But in terms of race relations?
LO: Well, no. I didn't see too many White people on... We lived two doors from the corner of Haskell Avenue, which is a thoroughfare in Dallas. And there was a Jewish grocery store on one corner, and, ah, an Italian grocery store on the other corner. And that was the most contact I had with anybody that wasn't Black.
CW: And were you...I mean, you grew up, then, in Dallas - I mean, from sixth grade on. Ah, were there any incidents that you can remember, or weren't there some bombings of some homes in Dallas at that time?
LO: Oh, yes. When Black people...you see, when they built the central expressway, that tore the heart out of Black Dallas. Because Thomas Avenue and State Street that I lived on, they were the thoroughfares and where the best homes were and everything. And, ah, Black people began to move to south Dallas. And as you know, when one White family sells to a Black family, the rest of the Whites get out as soon as possible. And in order to keep that from happening, then, the bombings started. And, ah, some of my friends lived on Oakland Avenue where most of the bombings took place. And they stayed in their homes with shotguns. And that finally subsided because enough of the White people moved out of the area for them not to be concerned. But one of my most pleasant experiences in Dallas, when I moved there in the sixth grade, was LO: the YWCA, which was a branch which I could walk to from my house up there. And they have daily Bib...Vacation Bible Schools. And, of course, all the people 15
over it were White. But they showed no prejudice and were interested in the Black children. And, ah, I learned more about the Bible and the stories and the reading, and it really was a pleasure. And that was my best out...outreach.
CW: If you don't mind going back to the...to the bombings? But that...it surprises me that that happened. I mean, it surprises me that a Black family buying a house didn't check out the neighborhood first to know that they were...or did they intend to move into a White ...
LO: Well, the same thing that happened in this little...in this little town where they said no Black people... You know, it's been in the news recently.
CW: Oh, yeah, like Ly...Lytle?
LO: I don't know the name of it. But I don't know why they didn't check it out. Because if they checked it out, they wouldn't have bought. But you had to have some place to go, and I guess they just thought it wouldn't happened.
CW: So it wasn't as if they were consciously trying to integrate that neighborhood?
LO: Oh, no! It wasn't a push to integrate the neighborhood. It LO: was that...ah, White people saw that it was a chance to move up a notch from where they were living. And you know, they got overpriced...they overpriced the house.
CW: And I sort of lost my chronology here. You were in Dallas as an adult?
LO: Yes.16
CW: ...
LO: Ah, when I finished Howard, I went back to Dallas. And I couldn't get a job in the public schools. And then I went and
worked with the Dallas County Relief Board.
END OF TAPE II, Side 1
TAPE II, Side 2
CW: And when was that, again, about when? That was '33...
LO: I came back after the the scholarship was over and worked as a social worker. And then my mother and I decided since I wasn't going to get a job, I better go back and finish so I could get a better job.
CW: Right. So you were there in the latter part of the '30s.
LO: I finished the L... School of Social Work in 1937 and went to Louisville right after the, ah...
CW: ...the flood?
LO: The flood.
CW: I guess I was curious about, ah, if there was any movement that early - in the...the late '30s - within the Black community with regards to civil rights? Was anything going on?
LO: In the '30s, ah, no. Because at that time when...I know I would take my little Christmas money and go into Woolworths and, ah, do my little shopping. And at that time, you know, you couldn't sit down at the counter or anything. But there was, as I could see, no protest about it.
CW: Ah, and then the bombings that we were just talking about, were, ah, the mid '60s?17
LO: Ah, '33, '34, '35, ah, no; they were in the, ah, mid, ah, '40s or early '50s.
CW: Do you know about anything else that was going in Dallas, ah, at that time?
LO: Only the...the fight for desegregation of the schools. See, my mother was a teacher.
CW: Was her experience a lot different from yours around Prairie View?
LO: Oh, yes. Because, ah, she had, ah, White supervisors and was more in contact with Whites than I was, although she had a Black principal.
CW: Ah, something else...it just popped into my head...out. Can CW: you think of anything else we should talk about?
LO: No, ah.
CW: Am I wearing you out? Harriet was just telling me that the story that your, ah, your husband had trouble getting a job because he was Black, after he graduated.
LO: Oh, yes. That was...when I went through his office after he died to clean it out, he had written every chemical company that he could think of, asking for a job. And they were telling him there was no vacancies. And almost beside that would be one of his classmates who had written him in Indiana, telling him that they had been employed.
CW: And he didn't tell you about that?
LO: Huh?
CW: Did he...did you know about him...18
LO: Oh, yes. We were very close, and, ah, I was very supportive of him. And then he just buried himself in his teaching profession, and he was very close to the National Science Foundation and got thousands of dollars for Prairie View from the National Science Foundation. Because he began to have science institutes to train public school teachers.
CW: It must be incredibly frustrating as a trained professional, you know, not...
LO: Oh, yeah. But, ah, you see the farm was his relaxer, and he, ah, he...if you've ever been to Indiana, you know they have beautiful farms. And this was what he had as his potential. And it was relaxation for him, because he'd come home and take off that three-piece suit and put on his boots and, ah, his farm clothes and he'd go out and feed the turkeys and the hogs. And I sat up many a night with a hog who was farrowing. And my son would show hogs at the...at the Waller County Fair.
CW: How was Prairie View affected by the...by desegregation?
LO: Well, it had always been segregated so, ah, they just gave them the money they wanted them to have and, ah, told them what to do. Now until, ah, Dr. Evans was made president, and I can't think of the year, ah, Prairie View had not had a principal. I mean had not had a president. He was called a principal. And everything he did was dictated from...from A&M, which is more or less still the case. But, ah, Prairie View...let's see Dr. Evans...ah, Dr. Drew...ah, Dr. Thomas...and Prairie View's had five presidents. Ah, the latest one is...and I put his name down here or did I? No, I didn't. Is 19
General Beckton. And you see, A&M is...in a way, many people think of it as a military school. And so the, ah, that influence is shifted into Prairie View. And it's the...it's still agricu...has agriculture, but it's not like it used to be. Because LO: the reason, we were so isolated. You see, if you wanted your shoes fixed, ah, when I was growing up, you took them to the shoe shop on the campus. And if you wanted other things done, well, the people who were over the...the carpentry and engineering would come out and bring the students and do it. That's all gone.
CW: Was there, ah, a loss. I mean, did some of the brighter Black students start going to...going to White schools?
LO: Oh, they called it the Brain Train. Yes! And that's still going on. Although, recently, because of the treatment and the friction on the White campuses, there is a shift-back, going back to Black colleges.
CW: I just heard that. I wasn't aware of that.
LO: Yes, that's really true.
CW: Did a lot of the professor's leave? Did your husband consider leaving Prairie View for a better position?
LO: Ah, they tried to get him to come to Maharie College, but he decided not go.
CW: So he never considered even, you know, going off to a White school.
LO: But I believe if he had lived, we probably would have gone...he would have gone to a college in, ah, in Madison, Indiana, his home.
CW: Hmm. Okay. I guess I can't think of anything else.
LO: Well, it's been very interesting.20
CW: Well, it's been ...
LO: And I hope I...
[SKIP IN THE AUDIO. SOMETHING MISSING]
LO: ...was how the textbooks have changed. Ah, until, oh, recently it was rare to see anything commendable about a Black person in the textbooks. But now, you know, Charles Drew and a lot of the Blacks who have made contributions of in...ah, in the textbooks. And they are...they say that they are Black. And, of course, when I was in school and from all the way through high school, I don't believe I ever heard, ah, or saw a Black person mentioned commendably in, ah...in, ah, textbooks.
CW: Hmm. Did your teachers make up for that lack?
LO: Oh, yes, yes. I had wonderful teachers. See, because teaching was the best job that they could get.
CW: They were a lot more than teachers, I would imagine, in the community.
LO: Aha.
CW: They were...
LO: Aha. Yeah, leaders.
CW: And when you were teaching in the segregated school system, CW: did you try to makeup for the failure of the textbooks?
LO: Oh, yes!
CW: Can you give me an example?
LO: Well, whenever I would come to something that was pertaining to a contribution made by a Black person, I would bring it in and they would be surprised because they wouldn't know.21
CW: Did you continue to do that after schools integrated?
LO: Oh, yeah. And, ah, you see, ah, many people don't know that Charles Drew was Black. And many people, ah, I haven't really seen it documented, but they say Johnny Appleseed was Black.
CW: Hmm. I didn't know that.
LO: And a Black man, ah, did the clock. And, oh, so many things that people - White people - didn't know about. Although now there's a lot of it on TV. And I don't know whether they change the channel as soon as it comes on or what? But I think the real problem is that White people and Black people have drifted apart. And what the Black people...what the White people have passed on from generation to generation is the servant idea about Black people. Because I remember a lady told me that she was working for a White woman, and she said, "You know, Jane, I wished it was like it used to be - that you would work for me...and, ah, stay here." And, you see, they have this servant complex, and they don't want LO: you to...very few of them want you to rub shoulders-to-shoulders with them. Because they think you're a threat.
CW: Do you remember any stories or jokes or tales from the...from the civil rights days? And I'm asking because I spoke...talked to one woman who told me a Martin Luther King joke, or any of the songs that people sang?
LO: "Lift Every Voice and Sing." Ah, I can remember when I was in high school, ah, White people liked to hear spirituals, and the teacher made up a voice choir and I was in it. And we would go around and sing. And, of course, that's one of the...the songs that's truly 22
Black - "Lift..." - that's not a spiritual.
CW: Do you remember any that...that were specific to the Civil Rights Movement or came out...
LO: "Lift Every Voice and Sing."
CW: Were there, ah, there must have been jokes about White people or jokes about, ah, you know, the changes that were going to come, ah, during that time period?
LO: Well, I can't remember any specifically. Ah, I noticed that Black people, ah, resented being called Nigger. Ah, and...but at the same time, Black people use it among themselves, and it isn't considered an insult like it is if it came from a White person.
CW: Was the whole issue of how Blacks were addressed, how was that CW: dealt with in...in Hempstead?
LO: Well, they...we would...in order to get them to call you Mrs., you would never write your first name. You would just write L.... Mrs. L. O'Banion or what-not. I know when I went back to Prairie View as a married woman, I went to, ah, an eye doctor - oh, in one of the little towns around - and, ah, he was very nice. But when I got the notice to come back, it was just addressed Lorraine and my address. And I went over there and I laid her out. And I was at...after that, she...she transferred to the dentist I was going to in Houston. And when I first started going, you had to come in the back door. And later after integration, you know, you came in and she...I recognized she was the same person. She would called me Mrs. O'Banion in that office.
CW: Were there other times when you had to, you know, had to speak 23
up and...
LO: Oh, yes. That's one of my, I guess, one of my problems, I would always speak up. If I was standing at the counter, ah, even now. Ah, the clerk will, if she sees you standing there, or she...they'll go to somebody else. And I'll say, " Well, I was here! I'm first, it's my turn!"
CW: Do you remember anything specifically during the Civil Rights Movement that you...that you did or felt called on to do?
LO: No, I can't.
CW: Did you ever have to say anything on behalf of your kids?
LO: About the civil rights? No, because, see, they were isolated in this segregated situation. And when we integrated, they had finished high school.
CW: And one other thing which was a point to clarify. You were... you were talking about the fact that the homes around Prairie View...I guess you said that now they're owned by the older generation which...
LO: ...That once worked at the college and built around it, see. And they're retired and dying out and sick.
CW: So there aren't new faculty or new people who moved into that that area?
LO: Only when one person dies, the house is sold, and it's usually somebody who, ah, works at Prairie View. But very...more often the house is rented to students, and they... It has just torn down... the...the...the community. Because students don't take care of the yard or the house or anything. And then, ah, too many of them move in the facility.24
CW: Did you go to Houston a lot, ah, during those days?
LO: Oh, yeah! You had to go to Houston if you wanted to buy anything decent to wear or...ah...
CW: And was everything that was going on at Texas Southern and stuff, how...did that affect the students at Prairie View?
LO: Well, yes. Because, see, Texas Southern was a political, ah, venture. And two schools that close together - Black - one will detract from the other one and the money is going to be divided. And Texas Southern...to my mind, they should have made Prairie View stronger rather than having two state schools that close together.
CW: Did the students work together at all during the Civil Rights Movement, do you think?
LO: Texas Southern and Prairie View?
CW: Uh-huh.
LO: Not to my knowledge.
CW: Were you aware of some of the stuff that was going on in Houston or involved, you know, I mean with regard to the civil rights?
LO: Oh, yes, you read it in the Houston Post and the Houston Chronicle. And then there was some Black papers, which you could have read...read about it in. Yeah.
CW: The Houston Observer.
LO: Huh?
CW: The Observer...wasn't it The Houston Observer?
LO: The Houston Informer.
CW: The Houston Informer. Yeah. Was there a lot more going on in Houston. I mean, did you think of it that way, cause it was...25
LO: Oh, yes, it's a city! Uh-huh!
CW: ...urban area. I mean with regard to civil rights.
LO: Yeah, uh-huh. And, see, there was a strong NAACP chapter there.
CW: Okay.
LO: Okay.
CW: Thanks! I thought I might... Ah, you were just talking about the way, ah, your husband...what happened when he would go for meetings of the...
LO: ...of people who worked at Prairie View had to go to meetings at Texas A&M, and they couldn't go in the front door of the building where the meetings were being held. They had to get the back entrance. And, ah, they couldn't get anything to eat on the campus. If they went off campus, they'd go try to find something in the Black community or they'd take a sack...sack lunch. And this even was with the principal of Prairie View and with, ah, the president for awhile, but that's a little better now. And my husband was a graduate of Indiana University. And Indiana University played the University of Texas, and, ah, of course, the Black football players were segregated. They couldn't live with LO: the White football players. And we after the games we would go and they'd tell us how the White players would spit in their faces and call them Nigger and, ah, just everything.
CW: Oh, man! So, I mean,...we're talking enlightened, educated...
LO: Oh, A&M is still not too...too concerned about...about Black students. There are some stories that come out, every now then, about how they haze and, ah, treat Black students. Although I know three 26
kids that came up in the Episcopal church who went there and did very well.
CW: How would your husband respond? I mean, I guess he came home and talked about...
LO: Oh, yes! When he would light in the door, he would just pour out my heart, his heart to me. Tell me what has happened. Because he was at...Indiana is the most...ah, had segregation too, but it was never that extreme, you know. And, ah, he wasn't accustomed to that.
CW: Do you think people were aware that there was a Civil Rights Movement in Texas?
LO: Ah, you mean away from Texas?
CW: No, in Texas, here.
LO: Not all of them, no.
CW: How come?
LO: Well, some people are just plain not interested. And some people are afraid. See, it takes a reasonable amount of intelligence to be involved in something like that. Although I now I think some of the protest movements they have...where I see these kids, if we'd ask them three questions about it, they couldn't answer them intelligently.
CW: One of the things I've thought about with this exhibit is that maybe I should do one just on the fact that there was a movement. It seems like a lot of people don't know that. Is that true of your experience? Or do you think in the Black community leaders, there was an awareness?27
LO: Now I don't think that they're conscious of it. See, so much time has elapsed and... At that time, though, I think people, most people, were quite aware of it. But if you'd ask a student now, or people, about it - ah, as young as you are or younger - they probably don't know anything about it.
CW: I think that a lot of people think that nothing happened in Texas. And it's interesting to me that the character of the Civil Rights Movement in Texas was a lot different from, say, what happened in other...
LO: Yes, it was, because we used to drive from Prairie View to Madison, Indiana, and I...we had never gone the southern...we'd LO: always go the other route. And this time we went through, ah, South Carolina and Georgia, where we'd never been...and I know we'd pack all this food and in South Carolina we drove up to a filling station and asked if we could go to the bathroom, and the man first said no. And he looked at me and the children and he changed his mind and he gave us the key. And Harriet and I went in the girls' bathroom, and a White woman came in there and saw us and she screamed and ran out, "Niggers in the bathroom! Niggers in the bathroom!"
CW: Oh, no. What happened?
LO: Nothing happened; she just left. And Charles wouldn't buy a thing to eat in the whole South Carolina or Georgia, my son. He...he was more, I guess, disturbed or related to it than...than we were. Because I just felt sorry for the lady, but he was plenty mad.
CW: Did you have a sense of, ah, women's roles in the Civil Rights Movement, that there were women out there in the forefront or no?28
LO: Not in that area. And there may have been, and I not known about it.
CW: Do you remember the first time that all of this became clear to you? I mean, as a little girl the first time that, ah, you knew that there were problems and...
LO: Yes, I went to get a drink of water at a fountain, and it said, " White Fountain". And my mother told me that I couldn't... couldn't drink from that one. We had to go around and find the one that said, "Colored".
CW: How old were you?
LO: Huh?
CW: How old were you?
LO: I guess I must have been about, ah, five or six.
CW: Did they give you instructions about, ah, I mean, did your parents advise you about how to get along or what you were going to have do to stay out of trouble?
LO: To try to avoid confrontations. Uh-huh.
CW: I've read that in small towns, that Saturdays were a hard... were a time, maybe a dangerous time, more dangerous for Blacks and their parents. Is that true?
LO: Well, that's true. See, having worked all the week, that was like a holiday, and many of them got drunk and fought. And they had big parties and dances and what-not, and it got to be almost that if you had a Black worker, don't look for him to show up on Monday morning because he was either recovering from a hangover or some other problem.29
CW: But I...one of the things that Harriet was just talking about CW: growing up was this sense of self-worth and self-identity and, ah, did you grow up like that? With that?
LO: Oh, yeah. My mother instilled into me that education was the best thing that could happen to me, and that I should study. And fortunately, I didn't have a problem of graduating valedictorian in my class in high school and lacked Magna Cum Laude at Howard, I guess, half a point or something like that.
CW: Wow!
LO: So...and then I liked school. Harriet teases me all the time. I worked for tho...the...the...do cryptograms in the office, she said, "You still like school". And I read, read, read, read. I like to take the stories and biographies.
CW: Did you think about just moving to the north where things were a little easier?
LO: No.
CW: When you were young?
LO: No. Because my husband couldn't get a job.
CW: Well, after you graduated from Howard, you know, when you were with your mother and couldn't get a job because the children couldn't work...
LO: Oh, no! I never thought about leaving her because there were just the two of us.
CW: You could have taken her with you. Just ...
LO: Well, she had to have a job too. And you don't leave a job to go looking for one.30
CW: Yeah.
LO: You find one first. But, see, I did leave. I went to Louisville and worked for six years.
CW: What were things like in Louisville? Were they like the deep south?
LO: No, no, no! They had...they had segregated schools, but not segregated buses and you could ride in taxis. See, in...in Texas, ah, you couldn't ride in a...in a Yellow Cab. And it just blows my mind every time I see a Black driver driving a Yellow Cab, even today. And when we would go to Houston from Prairie View, they wouldn't let you park in the parking lots. We had to...downtown. We had to park way away and then walk into town. And one of our friends said he was tired of that, so he...he...we said, "How do you park up near the stores in Houston?" He said, "I just go in and say I want to park Mr. Charlie's car." But it all seems so silly and unnecessary when you sit down and think about it. But people are hard to change.
CW: It must have been an incredible amount of frustration and anger, you know, just having to put up with that. How did...
LO: Well, see you were worse off if you kept the frustration going because it's like my pushing on this wall. My wanting can't change it, and so it's just upsetting to you. And it will make you sick, if you keep at it. So, you learn to live with a lot of things that were not the best for you, but that's the best you could do.
CW: Um hum. I guess the church helped a lot.
LO: Oh, yes. The churches were able. See, the churches now have lost that.31
CW: Hm.
END OF TAPE II, Side 2
END OF INTERVIEW