INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: GENE RAMEY
INTERVIEWER: STERLIN HOLMESLY
DATE: July, 1980
SF: (delayed start of tape) Jim Cullum's house.
Gene, if I may call you , or do you prefer Mr. Ramey?
GR: Sure.
SH: Where were you born?
GR: Austin, Texas.
SH : What year?
GR : April the 4th, 1913.
Capitol.
SH: Oh, right downtown.
GR: Down on 13th Street .
Three blocks from the State
SB: And how did you get into music?
GR : Well that seems to've been a family tradition . My
family was singers . I understand my grandfather was a violin
player. One of those hot violin players of the l ate lB's and
the early 1900's.
SH: By a hot violin player--kind of a jazzy or cake walkey?
GR: I don 't know how to describe it . I think---
SH: J ust a hot violin player .
GR: Well he was one of those entertaining violinists
RAMEY
GR: My mother used to always tell me that I got the habit
of pattin ' my foot like that from my grandfather . That's
somethin ' that I tried my best to break, but I couldn't.
2
SH : Well that ' s not a bad habit for a rhythm player, is it?
To pat your foot?
GR: No , except for the energy you use .
SH: Oh, yeah . Put it all on the strings .
GR: In my younger days I used to use up about 2 pounds a
night.
SH : Just sweatin' it out? Well I notice, hearing you last
night you ' re still pretty doggone energetic playin ' that
bass . Was the bass, the string bass, your first instrument?
GR: No I had lots of instruments. I think I could pinpoint
it most by saying that first was the t empo blocks . And then
I had a trumpet, and a baritone horn . And I played drums in
the Boy Scouts with the marching band .
SH: Well did your family teach you this, teach you the
instruments or---
GR : No . I just picked it up. I taught myself till I got
to the bass horn and then I had some music in school , you
know.
SH : Yeah . Is that where you learned to read, in school?
GR : A little bit. Not--'cause I had no inst rument to play .
I just , I sang in a quartet in school. I had my basic
teaching, but after I found out I couldn't play anything
else I ended up with the-- I p layed the ukelele pretty good.
And then I got ahold of the bass horn and that turned out to
RAMEY 3
GR: be my thing .
SH: Was that bass horn , was that a tuba?
GR: Yes .
SH: And when did you switch to string bass?
GR: After I got to Kansas City.
SH: And when did--well, when did you leave Austin? You go
directly to Kansas City?
GR: Ri ght . I went there to college, to Western University
in 1932. Actually August the 18th, 1932 I entered West ern
University . They had a band there and I got some , partial
scholarship. So I went there. Although I had been playing
music in Austin for a couple of years when I---
SH: Playin' jazz music?
GR: Right.
SH: With what? A local jazz band?
GR: I played with three different bands in Austin. I p l ayed
with--my permanent job was with the Moonlight Serenaders.
That was a--we had a social club and the cost of the band
was so much that we got together and bought our own instru-ments.
SH: Formed your own band. Yeah .
GR: I played with the . That's where I worked
CHEL
with Hers~ Evans.
SF: That's the tenor sax player who later wound up with
Basie. Right?
GR: Right. At the time I think he was with Troy Floyd .
SH: I was gonna ask you if you heard Troy Floyd or Boots
RAMEY 4
SE: Douglas or any San Antonio bands?
GR: Is that his name? Douglas?
SH: Boots and His Buddies. Yeah . Boots Dougl as .
GR: Boots and His Buddies .
SH: He's retired in Los Angeles now.
GR: Is that right?
SH: Yeah .
GR: I just did a European tour with one of his ex-piano
players from San Antonio.
SH: Who ' s that?
GR: Lloyd Flynn.
SH: Urn hum. Yeah . Lloyd lives in L.A. now. There 's
another piano player still livin' in San Antonio named Alan
Van. You might remember him.
GR: No .
SH: He played with both of 'em. Floyd and Douglas.
GR: Wel l I might have---
SH: And John Bragg the banjo player .
GR: Might have met 'em but it's just been so long that I
might know him if I see him.
SH: Yeah .
Ch~L
GR: I met Hers~ there. He came over and played with
That was Sammy orchestra.
SH: Was he playin' saxophone then?
GR: He was playin ' saxophone. I think it was tenor. Might
have been C melody. In those days , you know---
SH: C melody was a popular horn then.
RAMEY 5
GR: That was a popular horn then. And very few musicians
played the tenor sax.
SH: Until Coleman Hawkins carne along.
cneL
GR: Right. But I think Fers~ was playing tenor. And
then I played with George Carley. That band, later became--
guy in Muskogee had the same band that Andy Kirk---
SH: I 'm familiar with Andy Kirk. Don't know anyone out of
Muskogee.
GR: Ohman. I know him so well and he's s t ill living . Fe
was a trumpet player and he had that band. Andy Kirk--the
guys got unhappy with him and they all decided to leave him .
That's how Andy Kirk took over the band. And, well he had a
band. After Andy Kirk and them left him, he carne down here
and got some musici ans .
SH: When you were in high school, where did you guys get
your music? Did you get sheet music, or off of records?
GR: We bought music at a place in Austin. Reed's Music
Store which is still there. You could buy a whole orchestra-tion.
I remember we got that thing, Duke Ellington's Ring
Them Bells, and we had lots of stocks of--some of them they
had 'ern in off keys, they ' d give you as a sample. We got lots
of those. I remember we had that When the Moon Comes Over
the Mountain, and Should I?, and Dream a Little Dream of Me ,
and, oh I can't remember all of them. Most of them were i n
this little---
SH: This was dance type for your social functions .
GR: Right. and something else.
SH: You had a few up tunes.
RAMEY 6
GR: Right .
SH : Did you swing on ' em. Improvise or stick pretty well
with the charts?
GR: We improvised. We very rarely used the chart except for
the first and last chorus.
SH: Just get started and stop.
GR : Right . And that was the general idea of most of the
bands from Texas, all that we encountered.
SH : That was about 1930, ' 31?
GR: ' 30 , '31 and early ' 32 .
SH: Yeah . And then you went to--­GR:
Kansas City.
SH: Kansas City t o college, and I guess Bennie Moten had
his big band goin ' about then , didn't he?
GR : Oh that is--it was amazing to see that. They had a place
called the Potato Ballroom. And on a holiday, every holiday
they had a battle of bands. And they had Alfonso Trent,
Bennie Moten , Walter Page and his Blue Devi ls , Georgie Lee ' s
band, Clarence Love's band , Andy Kirk ' s Twelve Clouds of Joy.
SH : That must've been a knockout .
GR: It was . Most of the people stood there and watched
those bands battle. ' Cause they'd just take turns and each
one ' d play about three tunes . I can still remember Georgie
Lee and Jimmy Rushing each singin ' in that big , big h a ll
without a microphone.
SH: Just filled--I bet Little Jimmy filled it .
GR : They had those---
SH: Megaphones?
RAMEY 7
GR: Megaphone things. And this is the thing that amazes
me now is that you hear these guys can't hear each other or
can't hear you, you know. And a much smaller room .
SH: Unless they've got 85 amplifiers.
GR: That's right.
SB: Well that must've been quite a feeling for you . A 18-
year-old kid from Texas to walk in on something like that.
One of those battle of bands.
GR: Well I didn ' t just get out there, a l though I had been
offered jobs . Somebody by t he name of Sergio Rome had come
to Austin and tried to get me to go . And several of those
minstrel shows had tried. But I was set on savin' enough
money to go to college. I finished school in Januar y of 1930
and I was shinin' shoes and playing music on the side and
doin' everything I could to make , save enough money to have
something to go to college with.
SH: So you worked for a l most two years between high school
and college?
GR: Right .
SH: Did you finish? Did you get your degree?
GR: In college?
SH: Yeah.
GR: It's a funny thing. This was a black school that was
cosponsored by the state . And there became--some kind of
problem was involved there and the church pulled out. The
church had all of the high degreed teachers. I mean teachers
with the master 's and the doctor's degrees.
RAMEY 8
SH: Some kind of disagreement between the church and the
state?
GR: Right . They broke off and the school automatically
dropped down to a two year college. And so I got my certifi­cate.
But I got there just in time to witness the downfall
of it.
SH: Right. But you did get a two year certificate?
GR: I got a two year certificate. And I went t here for
electrical engineering 'cause I couldn't get that in the
state of Texas, in those days, you know. And---
SH: What? Prairie View wasn't a good school?
GR: Well it was the only school there and---
SH: An agricultural school.
GR: Right. And they didn't teach anything like that. A
friend of mine who was the drummer in the band , he went there
first, and he was to graduate. After he graduated then I
was--and I got one year in and then the school collapsed .
SH: Yeah . So what did you do when the school folded up?
GR: Well I transferred over into what they called--it was
nothin' but a printin' course, but they called it journalism.
So I took two years of that. And
SH: Well , where in there--is this when you switched from
the brass bass to the string bass in Kansas City?
GR: While there in school . There's another t hing that
happened. When the school--when they had the--they had a
great band there and they had lots of students. And when the
school, they broke off, well the state had supplied the school
RAMEY 9
GR: wi th all sorts of instruments. And I remember there
was 4 bass v i olin s , and oh , I guess about 10 fi rst, second
violin cel los and everything, and saxophones and everything.
They had a b i g band. So I happened to see that they were
takin ' those bass violins and tyin ' ' em up to the ceiling in
the storeroom. And I noticed that all of ' em had cracks from
that heat up there. I mentioned it to t he man who took care
of the thing. Fe said , "Well l et me call Topeka , Kansas and
see what they want to do about this, " he said, "' Cause they ' re
just gonna fall to pieces up there ." And they sent word that
you could have what you wanted . So I took 2 of the bass
violins I wanted to have at home and one for me to play on .
The one I had at home was--I was gonna try to find out how
to fix it myself . I just tore it all to pieces. (laughter)
SH: Well was t he one you had with you, was that cracked too?
GR : Both of ' em were cracked but the other o n ~ I took it to
a music store in Kansas City cal l ed Jenkins Music . And they
overhaul ed it and fixed it for me . I think it cost about
$20 . 00 for the complete overhaul ing.
SH: That was still a lot of money in those days .
GR: In those days it was . Especially for me ' cause--by
that t i me I had lear ned-- ! had l earned a little bit. My uncle
was a roofer here in Austin and so about that time I started
doin ' a lit t l e painting around Kansas City and I established
quite a l ittle trade . I di d about 16 or 17 houses inside
and out . Had one fellow helpin' me . So I managed to get hold
of some money to pay for it. I didn 't pay my tuition and
RAMEY 10
GR : that , you know. The second year I didn ' t have to pay
anything anyway . But I had already met Walter Page and Lester
Young and so when I started to p l aying with a little band i n
Kansas City , Hot 'n Tots . They gave it that name
because it was "Hot" and "Tots .'' And the nine of them were
high school seniors at some of the high schools in Kansas
City , Kansas. And my school was in Qui ndera, Kansas . So
somebody tol d t hem about me and asked me to come and join
' em. In the meantime I ' d been workin ' with two local--two
Kansas City, Kansas bands . And so I said, "Well I got nothin '
to do I'll go down if you wanna come pick me up ." So I
started first to practicin' with ' em with the bass horn. And
I got my bass fiddle and they had enough patience with me to
learn how to practice and learn . And then I---
SH : You taught yourself the bass fiddle more or less? Did
Page hel p you any?
GR: Well Page was really my teacher . What I did , you might
say, to transpose , I got the-- there was a book--Frank Skinner,
a music book , a bass violin book . And inside they had folded
up a whol e chart of the finger board . And all you had to do
was take that and tape it on your f inger board . And with
that you could find out where all the positions were that
you knew on your bass horn .
SH : Yeah.
GR : So I had that down pret ty good but I just didn ' t know
what to do , you know, playing bass violin . It was a whole
new thing for me . So I started with that, then I met Walter
RAMEY 11
GR : Page and he told me, said, "Well if you ever feel like
comin' over I'll teach you. '' And now this was in ' 34 when I
first met Walter Page . By the way, when they gave us those
instruments, I took--that first saxophone that you saw with
Lester Young playing like this---
SH: Yeah . The one sideways?
GR : Yeah. Yeah. That silver horn? Well that was one of
the school's horns. And I took that and I gave it to him.
SH: How old was Young then?
GR: Well Lester Young is 3 years older than me , so--- I
think I was 19 ; he was about 22. You know Lester Young was
an alto player before.
SH: Right .
GR : So that's why he got that tone that he had. So in the
winter of ' 35 this band , band got a job at the
place called Frankie's and Johnnie 's in Kansas City , Missouri .
Now you know the difference between the two cities, don't you?
SF: Yeah. Right .
GR: So we went--make it across there every night with our
instruments playin' this night club. Well , first of all the
club wasn't that well advertised , and secondly, the band wa s
strickl y a rinky-dink band . So---
SH : Kind of a funny hat band or just didn ' t play well.
GR: Wel l we were just school kids, you know. We would split
a note ' cause the reed section didn ' t hit together, you know .
It was just a school band , you know.
SH: Yeah. Whip sawin' a nd---
GR: Right. Ri ght. And it was just practically amateurs. So
RAMEY 12
GR : that l asted about 6 weeks . In the meantime I had taken
a job at Western University as Assistant Engineer . So I had
the double duty of trying to take care of my job at Western
University and playing that music . And in ' 34 I had gotten
married too, you see . And after that Frankie and Johnnie 's
thing went down then, a girl, a pianist in the band--they
called her Countess Johnson- -she took Mary Louise's place
with Andy Ki r k . We de cided to organize a littl e tfuing. Had
6 pieces , members, out of that band. And we got a job at a
place called the Barley Duke on Street which was two
blocks down t he street from the Reno .
SH : The Barley Duke?
GR : Bar- ley .
SH: Barley . OK.
GR: D- U- C.
SH : OK . Bar ley Due .
GR : And now this job was ext remely hard for me. I had to- ­it
was from 8 to 5 . And you couldn ' t quit . Those jobs
there, when you took a job there and you decided you wanted
to quit, some mysterious voice in the distance woul d tell
you , "You don't qui t here. "
SH: Well was this 8PM to 5 AM? Or 8 AM to 5?
GR : 8 PM to 5 .
SH: How much did you get for a gig l i ke that?
GR: A dol lar and a half.
SH: Good grief!
GR: And we also--I a l so had the job at the Western University
RAMEY 13
GR : and that was 8 to 5. So you know what I did on the day
shift. I slept a l l day.
SH: Right . So that left you, in effect, 3 hours off out of
24.
GR: Right. Right. And so, well I had more t han that, more
time than that. I had 3 hours in the afternoon and 3 in the
morning.
SH : Right. Yeah. Three. I forgot the 3 i n the afternoon .
Yeah. So you had 6 out of 24.
GR: Right .
SH: That 's still not much .
GR : It sure isn't. Especially traveling all the way from
Missouri to Kansas. And I lived over i n Ouindera which is
just on the outskirts going to L~enworth . Just on the out­skirts
of Western. By the way , that school , Western Univer­sity
, was that site where John Brown had---
SH: The raid?
GR : Had rescued the slaves. And at the bottom of the hill
on that campus was lots of bri ck cuts that still stand there .
They're in shambles but they still stand there where he'd go
across the Missouri River there and bring the slaves across.
And so a monument was built there. And that school originally
was named Western University, and that was the first black
school west of the Mississippi River . And it was like a land­mark
.
SH : Yeah . A historic spot .
GR: In fact they still have those monuments as a kind of a
tour section like that. But there ' s no school now. I think
RAMEY 14
GR: it's a senior citizen's home or something there now.
But--where were we now?
SH : Well you had this job at the Barl ey Due .
GR: At the Barley Due .
SH: That you couldn 't quit . So how did you finally get out
of that?
GR: Well I stayed there about a year . I just had to get
somebody to help me at the school job. The school job only
paid me $40 . 00 a month anyway . And room and board , you know,
I had a wife and a baby at that time .
SH : Well when did you get married? What year?
GR: In ' 34. I didn 't have a wife when I first started work­in'
over there but shortly after I married , you know . And
the baby carne in '35. And so we were the
missions. Like Basie ' s band--by this time Bennie Moten had
died and Basie had taken over . You probably heard the story
of that. When the band broke up , when Moten died the band
broke into 2 sections .
SH: Yeah . I've heard, but you go ahead and tell us about it
here for the record .
GR : Well one of 'ern was run by Gus Moten , Bennie Moten 's
nephew and a guy named Prince Stewart, or Dee Stewart . He
was a trumpet player . Now they seemed like they had t he in­side
shot on everything. They was heirs to all of the ter­ritory
that played. But the band was nothing. They
got the job at the Reno and Basie went out on the road . And
as far as I know--! know they went on a tour and they got to
RAMEY 15
GR: Littl e Rock and they got stranded and different musicians
and sympathetic friends fed 'ern and finally gave 'em enough
money to get back t o Kansas City. They came back straggling.
SH: Local musician, Don Albert Domini~-you heard of Don
Alber t?
GR: Yeah .
SH: Don~-I intervi ewed h im before he died back in March, and
he told me about helpin' Basie get out of Arkansas when they
were stra nded there. So Don and his band were goi ng through
that precari ous time. So he was one of the friends who helped
them.
GR: Well I know that he got there and 11Prez 11 became my closest
friend.
SH: "Prez 11 being Lester Young.
GR : Yeah. And so we used to talk about that all the time .
And that was the f i rst time they ran across Buddy Tate .
Buddy Tate was--T. Holder's the name of the band I was tryin7
t o remember a while ago . That was the first owner of the
Andy Kirk band . And he still lives in Muskogee. And 11 Prez"
said that the first time they ran into Buddy Tate was there.
And he was with some--might have been with Don Albert . Or it
might've been with some of those Oklahoma bands. I don ' t
know.
SH: Well I don ' t believe he was with Don.
GR : I don ' t remember him with Don . But I do remember I
played with him here in Austin with Sandy Holmes' orchestra .
When he was out of work , he carne down and worked with us on
a couple of jobs . But , anyway , that ' s when he first saw
RANEY 16
GR: Buddy Tate . And they managed to get back to Kansas
City and this man, Saul--I can't think of his last name--
that owned the Reno Club , he was just completely dissatisfied
with Gus Moten's band. They werentt drawing anybody . The
band didn't swing or nothin ', so he had Basie to get him 9
pieces. And Walter Page had been the owner of the band
oevc~5
called the Blue ~1. And he had a great alto player named
Buster Smith. And they both had come over with Bennie Moten
anyway. And Hot Lips Page. These was all Texas musicians
too. And, well Page was from western Oklahoma , but the
others--- And so they had a swingin ' little band. And on top
of that they played the type of music that didn ' t knock every-body's
ears out. They took over the job at the Reno and im-mediately
after that the radio station liked it so well that
they came and asked if they could put a line in there. And
so I was glad to have it. So every night a t 12 o 'clock they
would come on. Now at that time the Pendergast thing was full ---
SH : Yeah . Scandals. Political scandals.
GR: Right . And so we had--Sunset Terrace was further out
on Street. It came on a t 11 o ' clock and had a guy
named Ellins that sang in the band and played on that . So
this same radio station worked out-- made themselves some-thin'
like a chain of night clubs. Like those biq--NBC and
CBS were doin'. And they switched from this station and
they'd come up to the Reno. And they had another thing at
the Playmore Ballroom .
SH: Well would you say that the Reno was the beginnin ' of
RAMEY 17
SH: the Count Bas i e band then?
GR: I would say the beginning of it takin' f orm . Before
that, naturally, they evidently were doin' good but nobody
knew 'em, you know. So their bookings fell off and every­thing.
But I would say that the Reno was really the thing .
And there was such a great understandin' between the owner
of the club and Bas i e. And he was just crazy about Basie .
Saul.
SH: Did you call Basie "Bill" or "Count? "
GR: I always called him Basie.
him somethin' else. (laughter)
SH: Tell me what that was.
GR: Naw .
I tell you , we used to call
SH: Go ahead . Don't leave a questi on unanswered here .
What'd you call him?
GR: (laughter) Well he always had holes i n his pants .
But everybody called him "Holy. "
SH: OK. That was before he could afford those $300 suits.
GR: Right.
SH: Or $600 it looked like last December when I saw him .
GR: Yeah . Probably--he's been in there long enough and
he's got some money.
SH: Yeah. I hope he has some.
GR: His wife is very energetic, so I think she saw to it .
But anyway , that gave me a chance to go up there in inter­mission
and get a few lessons, free lessons, from Walter
Page.
RAMEY 18
SH: From Page.
GR: And then in his intermission he'd come down and check
to see what I was doing. That also made a strong relation­ship
between the two of us. And there was-- the lady piano
player that I worked with--Lester Young fell in love with
her. So he was down every evening at intermission. Or ~ she
was up there every intermission . So we hit together. We
were l ike the baby brothers and sisters of Count Basie's
band. Wherever they played music, try to make it there.
Like New Jersey.
SH: So you were learning as you went along.
GR: Now that place finally was shut down and I guess that's
the only thing that caused us to leave. This club, you
know, in those days---
SH: That the Barley Due?
GR: The Barley Due.
SH: Closed up.
GR: The Reno was a little bit more sophisticated . So they
didn't have all the things that these other clubs had. Like
we had the nude girls. One place we played where they had-­a
man brought the horse in on the stage.
SH: Oh my.
GR : And they had a act with the horse. So evidently they
had something else going on then because one night after we
left--it must've been in the morning; it wasn't day after
we left. But anyway there was a shootout between the owners
of this club and the FBI. And there was supposed to've been
drugs invol ved of some kind. And one FBI was killed and 2
RAHEY 19
GR: of the owners of the club.
SH: And that was the end of the club.
GR: That was the end of that, right. Then and there. So
the Barley Due was short-lived in that respect. But we had
the most business, naturally, because all that kind of
attraction. They had the windows painted. We had windows,
glass windows all aroundth~place, and they had the windows
painted almost as high as that lighting over in there.
SH: About 6 feet, yeah.
GR: Right. And so anybody that wanted to look in, they'd
have to stand on a box or somethin' to look in and see the
nude girls or something like that. All that was going on.
SH: Well what happened to your band from the Barley Due
before it ended up there.
GR: We worked together. We had another place -we went to,
the Wilby Chateau. This was out in the ritzy neighborhood,
like the White Plaza out in the quiet neighborhood. It was
more like residential. And we played out there. When we
went from there--well we had a radio broadcast at a place
called the State Line Tavern. And this was a club t hat was-­straddled
the state line. Now in Missouri, Truman had passed
a law there--well during his regime--they had passed a law
that all clubs had to close at one o'clock, which was a sud­den
shock to the people.
SH: Been stayin' open till five .
GR: No more allowed. And so to counteract this, this man
had this State Line Tavern and then in Kansas you could
RAMEY
GR: stay open till Doomsday. ·so they had a bar over here
and a bar over here. (laughter)
SH: So when they closed in Missouri, they just walked to
the other side of the room .
GR: The other side and kept on playing.
SH: That was pretty clever.
GR: So we worked there and we left from there--when she
20
left, it was shortly after that I joined Jay McSha~. ~~d-- ­SH:
You still work with him too, don ' t you?
GR: I'm gonna work with him this Friday in Chicago. In
fact, we never severed our relationship although I stayed in
New York and he went back to Kansas City. But after we carne
to New York, I mean--excuse me--after we broke the band up
and I carne with Jay McSha~~ then I managed to get all the
rest of 'ern in the band. And Countess Johnson-- the reason
the band broke up was Countess was called to take Mary Louise 1 s
place with Andy Kirk. And so then I went with McSha~ and
then I eventually---
SH: Countess, is that the one Lester Young was in love
with?
GR: Right .
SH: What was her name?
GR: Martha Johnson.
SH: OK .
GR: Then I stayed with McSha~. Now there was a funny
thing on that situation too. I joined this band on a 2-week
stint to fill in for a guy who was gonna come in 2 weeks
later. Now he didn 't want to come in until his favorite
drummer was available. Now Gus Johnson had been workin' in
RMlEY 21
GR: Lincoln, Nebraska. And so he and a bass player named
Bil l ---- had agreed to come with McSha~ But they
wanted to open together. So McSha~s cousin, Pete McSha~,
and I opened with the band. And I don't know, I guess I
or sornethin', anyway, when the time carne
well they told to forget it, that they'd rather
have me.
SH: Well did Gus Johnson come on?
GR: Gus carne on with the band. And so we immediately just
upset Kansas City. And we were at a place out in--where the
very sophisticated rich lived in Kansas City on the Plaza.
I don't know whether you've h eard of that part or not.
SH: No, I'm not that familiar with Kansas City.
GR: Well it's somethin' like a Hyde Park. And then the other
union didn't like the idea of us being out in that neighbor-hood
so they tried to zone it off. And the thing had to go---
SF.: Well the other union, was that a white union?
GR: White union.
SH: You had a segregated union too. Yeah .
GR : And so the thing went to P~trillo and he broke the back
of it right away . He said, "I'm here fightin' this and here
you are tryin' to create it. So those guys're gonna play any-place
they wanna play." So we were all an instant success
there and they had the colleges. Right away we started
playing the University of I·~issouri, University of Kansas .
Al l the nearby colleges and everything . So we had lots of
RAMEY 22
GR: the college kids that followed us all over. Had a fan
club, you know. And that same year--I was supposed to've
been the first black to join Charley Barnett--in October of
that year.
SH: What year was that?
GR: 1938. They called me in and told me that Charley
Barnett had been lookin' for me all day. So I rushed over
to the union and come to find out he had contacted Jay
McSha~ and Jay had taken me way out in the country.
(laughter)
SH: Ah. Keepin' you outta sight, huh?
GR: So I missed that job. But anyway we gained popularity.
And that year Jay and I won the New Star Award. I guess
that's the first--we didn't get any award, we got instead,
a trip to Chicago where we played at Offbeat Room with
- - -- Jimmy MacFarland and the in Chicago.
That was our present for havin' been chosen as New Stars.
SH: What was that? A Down Beat poll?
GR: Down Beat poll. We came and we had- -by this time we
had gotten Charlie Parker. We had trouble with him, you
know.
SH: Well in '38--is that when you first had Charlie Parker?
GR: Well I met him before that. I met him in '35 when we
were workin' at--before Jay McSharon came into Kansas City.
SH: Well he was pretty much a kid then, wasn't he? '35?
GR: Yeah. He was just a--I met him first in '34 actually.
RAHEY 23
GR: The band that I was with, the Hot 'NTots played a
battle of bands against their high school band. And that's
when I first met him. And he was--what's the word--adamant?
He didn't speak to you. He'd just sit over there and sulk.
But I guess he was 13 or 14 or so. Yeah. I was 21 or so,
you know. But anyway, then in '35 he was workin' across the
street from the Reno where--so we'd see each other every
night at the jam sessions and he'd come down to our club,
and we became very close friends. And we started to go out
in the parks and find places to jam, he and I and a couple
of the other musicians that was interested.
SH: What kind of trouble did you have with him in '38?
Drugs or booze or personality?
GR: Well I think he was just gettin' hooked on somethin'.
Because his habit--his trouble was then that--when he started
to workin' with us, usually I had my car so I'd drive the
guys. And usually I'd keep his horn and his jacket, 'cause
if we didn't, it'd be in the pawn shop. So it was somethin'.
I don't want to say it was drugs, 'cause I never in my life
saw it, and we became very close.
SH: Yeah. You never saw him shoot up?
GR: I never saw him shoot a line. But I do know this much,
that he was an experimenter. We used to call him the pharma­cist.
He'd go to the drugstore and try to find anything
that he could use, you know.
SH: Anything for a high.
GR: To get high. They practically caused one company to
RAMEY 24
GR: go out of business. You remember those inhalers they
used to have to open your nose up?
SH: Urn hum. Yeah.
GR: I don't say he did it, but I mean those fellows in later
years they started tryin' to find something. The thing
about that drug thing, the papers have written it, but they
haven't--they made it like it's the cruelest thing that
ever happened. But if they would think back to the fact
that there was Prohibition and especially for a black
musician, if he was caught--now most of the bands traveled
the South, you know. And if he was caught with whiskey on
his breath in those days, he could get a whole lots of time
plus a good whippin'.
SH: Sure.
GR: So the guys who was buyin' that other to use---
SH:
. e. . .
I JUSt thought--benzAdrlne 1nhalers.
GR: Benzidrine inhalers. Right.
SF: OK. And people would crack 'em open and get the stuff
out. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. I knew some saxophone players that--and this
wasn't Charlie or Lester, well Lester didn't use it anyway.
But I knew some saxophone players that was long with us when
the be-bop first began who used to soak their reeds in there.
SH: Oh, wow.
GR: They'd take it and put a glass of water and put that--
open up that inhaler and put it down in there and leave
their reeds to soak overnight, see. So when they start to
blowin' they--- (laughter)
RAMEY 25
SH: Get high off the reed. (laughter)
GR: But anyway---
SH: That sounds kinda desperate.
GR: Well these guys, I'll tell you, they were actually
tryin' to get away from us. Because even in my high school
days, I smoked marijuana. It was nothin'. We called it
crazy weed.
SH: Yeah. Well Louie was a big smoker, wasn't he?
GR: I think so. I didn't know him that well. But I think
so. I know most of the musicians did. Because the cops
wouldn't bother you 'bout that. They didn't even look for
that sort of thing.
SH: Just looked for booze.
GR: They'd look at the whiskey because it was Prohibition.
So by the time that this,what's it name,was rescinded,
Prohibition, well by that time there was a lots of musicians
who had got used to smokin' marijuana. By the way, there
was a cigarette that came out of San Antonio back in those
days you could buy in the drugstore. It was called Cubear.
It was supposed to be good for hayfever and asthma. And
that was a big part marijuana.
SH: Oh really?
GR: And you could buy that in the store and get a high.
SH: I've heard of Cubears. But I didn't know they had
Mary Jane in 'em. (laughter)
GR: They had sornethin' in there, you know. Something
RAHEY 26
GR: similiar to it. But anyway, it wasn't bad. All of a
sudden when that law was rescinded then that became a mon-strous
thing for anybody to be caught with marijuana.
SH: Yeah. Well I've heard somebody say that society accepts
one drug at a time. And you know, alcohol has been accepted
and then rejected and so on. But one at a time is all right.
GR: Yeah. Right. Well I don't know but around New York
the complaint is that that liquor lobby is so powerful that
they would never allow any other kind of drug to get in
there anyway.
SH: Don't want any competition.
GR: Right. So now that don't have to be true but we have
heard that complaint.
SH:
GR:
Let's see. Charlie Parker joined McSha~ in '38.
McSha~ band. And we went to do this thing in February
o f '39 when we got the reward.
SH: When you went to Chicago.
GR: Uh huh. And we's supposed to stay 2 weeks butthey really
liked us and so we stayed 6 weeks. And when we got back,
Charlie Parker had gone. So we l eft the band there at the
Martins on the Plaza in that exclusive club there. And we
got back, Charlie Parker was gone. And so, well, when we
got to Chicago, one night the guys called and said, "You
know what?" Said, "YOl;J!:a alto player was in here." He
told McSha~, "Your alto player was in here tonight." Said,
"He blew out everybody." He was just goin' around lookin'
RAMEY 27
GR: for alto players and chop 'em up, you know. And so
we just thought maybe he was in and gonna come and see us.
Next thing we knew, he was in New York. So he was dissatisfied,
I guess, because we won the award and he didn't, so he left.
Anyway, he went on to New York and we came back to Kansas
City. And so we had to get another alto player. Well they
got another alto player before we got back. And we--then
McSha~ began to prepare to get a bigger band because the
union laws, in some places you couldn't have--we had 7
pieces. And certain ballrooms you had to have maybe 12 or
14. So then McSha~ began--he and his manager began to
enlarge the band. And that was late '39. And '39 we were
brought to Chicago. The same man I've been playing for, his
son I'm playing for now---
SH: Yeah. This was the whole band went to Chicago?
GR: That was just before the big band came in. Still 7
pieces. But we was supposed to do our first r ecording then.
The man put us on the bus and brought us up there. And we
hadn't--not knowing-- hadn't gotten permission from the union
to go into that jurisdiction. We got there and instead of
the man there doing things--he probably didn't know either
'cause he had a new recording company. So we got there and
they put us in our rooms in this fabulous hote l down in the
loop there. And about 2 hours later we went to the record-ing
studio and as soon as we got the r e , the union broke in
and said, "All right, just put those ins truments back and I
give you 12 hours to get out of town."
RAMEY 28
SF.: Wow. That was a little unfriendly.
GR: Well we had advertisers all over the campus, we gonna
make our first recording, you know. And naturally we were
gonna be a big hit and everything.
SH: Well couldn't you record in KaDsas City? Couldn't the
same guy come down there?
GR: Evidently not. Evidently not. So anyway they sent us
back to Kansas City. But it didn't although we
felt pretty cheap I guess that's about---
SH: OK. You got back to Kansas City.
GR: And we got the big band.
SH: Yeah. How many pieces were in the big band?
GR: I think it was 12. We had---
SH: You added 5?
GR: Four, four and four. And we had a singer. One time
we had two singers.
SH: Male and female?
GR: Well no. We had two male singers. We stole Al Hibler
from this territory right here. We got him outta Boots and
his band, Boots and His Buddies band. Right here.
SH: Right here in San Antonio.
GR: Yeah. And then we had a great ballad singer name of
Bill--ah, gettin' old. (laughter)
SH: Well let it go. It'll come to you in a minute.
GR: Yeah. Bill Nolan. And so we started playing the cir­cuit
then. We came down to Texas, down here and went back
there. That's how we happened to see Hibler when we came
down here and McSha~ was attracted to him.
RAMEY 29
SH: Just signed him on.
GR: Didn't sign him on, just took him right---
SH: Just come right ahead.
GR: And Hibler said, "I want to go with him right now."
And said, "All right."
SH: Well let's see. Hibler's still a l ive, I think, isn 't
he? In Baltimore or someplace?
GR: Yeah. He's in New York. He's actually livin' just
across the river in Jersey. And he's got a nice house
there. His wife--he and his wife broke up but he's got
that big house and he's been takin' care of it nicely. And
you remember that--the first black baseball player with the
Yankees? He lives next door to Hibler.
SH: With the Yankees. Oh, Elston Howard. Yeah.
GR: Yeah. He has a house next door to Hibler. So Hibler's
doin' fine and in a good neighborhood. But he still wants
to come back out here now. But the problem is with those
guys now, and they got those big homes, most of 'ern, and
they cannot sell. Nobody wants to buy.
SH: Just stuck with 'ern.
GR: Right. Yeah. What's his name from San Marcos here,
the great trombone player that was with Jimmy Lun~ford?
What's his name?
SH: I don't know. I didn't even know--he lives in San
Marcos?
GR: Naw. He lives in New York now. Eddie Durham. He's
been tryin' to sell his house for 10 years to somebody.
RAN.EY 30
GR: Buck Clayton is from Ge orgetown.
SH: I didn't know that.
GR: Yeah. His family's from Georgetown. In fact they own
a whole lots of land there in Round Rock. People tryin'--­SH:
Well Round Rock's really a good place to own land these
days.
GR: They won't sell there anymore. somebody
come in and do somethin' about it. But anyway, there's a
lots of 'em that just can't sell. Buddy Tate, for example.
He's got that house there. They bought a house, an old
house, and had it remodeled in Sherman, Texas, he can't get
rid of that house in New York.
SH: I guess Herb and Annie were lucky then.
GR: Yeah. Well, you know, she's a smart lady anyway.
SH: Annie's a very smart lady.
GR: She kept him in safe. Don't buy and get all involved
in it. I think they bought somethin' there though.
SH: They've got some rent, some apartments up there. A
couple of apartment houses.
GR: Uh huh. Yeah, I know he had a little store there for
awhile.
SH: So you were on the tour, Texas tour, with the big band.
McSha~. What was that about '40? '39, '40?
GR: '40 was the first time. And then we did it on up until
'44 when the band broke up.
SH: You just kept on tour there for 4 years.
RM1EY 30
GR: Buck Clayton is from Georgetown.
SH: I didn't know that .
GR: Yeah. His family's from Georgetown. In fact they own
a whole lots of land there in Round Rock. People tryin'--­SH:
Well Round Rock's really a good place to own land these
days .
GR: They won't sell there anymore. somebody
come in and do somethin' about it. But anyway, there's a
lots of 'em that just can't sell . Buddy Tate, for example .
He's got that house there. They bought a house, an old
house, and had it remodeled in Sherman, Texas, he can ' t get
rid of that house in New York.
SH : I guess Herb and Annie were lucky then.
GR: Yeah . Well, you know, she ' s a smart lady anyway .
SH: Annie's a very smart lady.
GR: She kept him in safe. Don't buy and get all involved
in it. I think they bought somethin' there though .
SH: They've got some rent, some apartments up the r e . A
couple of apartment houses.
GR: Uh huh. Yeah, I know he had a l ittle store there f or
awhile .
SH : So you were on the tour, Texas tour, with the big band.
McSha~. What was that about '4 0? ' 39 , ' 40?
GR: '40 was the first time . And then we did it on up until
'44 when the band broke up.
SH: You just kept on tour there for 4 years .
RAMEY 31
GR: Well we had a home base in Kansas City where we went
back to a place called the Century Room there on
About 43rd and It was in a hotel there . We
always could come back there.
SH: Well obviously-- switch to your instrument , string bass--
obviously Walter Page was your big influence 'cause he helped
teach you .
GR: Yeah .
SH: Tell me some thoughts on some of the other bass players .
~us
Charlies.
GR: Yeah . Charlie passed away .
SH: Yeah. But as a musician. Do you have a favorite other
than Walt Page? Bass players that you've known?
GR:
here.
Well , you know the funny thing is , you've got one comin'
H~~~~r
I used to always say Walter Page and Bobby JJ8s e~.
That was the two. It wasn't just because I was hittin ' one
from each race. It was just two guys that I liked. And I
like them first because I liked the way that they supported
a soloist or a band. Although I also liked the soloing.
But they didn't care about solo. What they wanted to do was
make that band swing. And that's what I liked about 'em .
There was 2 guys that knew a whole lots about bass but they
could restrain . They could hol d themselves back and just
support that soloist or the band .
~~~~T
SH: Well !~tt obviously thinks about the whole band with
all the arrangements he does.
GR: Well he is. He ' s showin ' that he finds that nice note.
RAMEY 32
GR: It's not overpowering or nothin' else. But he's right
there, you know, right where you need him .
SH: Did you ever run across Ji~~y Blanton with Duke?
GR: I used to battle with Jimmy Blanton . In fact we be­came
very close friends . And when he passed away the Duke
asked me to take his place .
SH: Well he was very young when he died wasn't he? In his
20s?
GR: Right. Yeah. Yeah . 21 or somethin' like that.
SH: Died in about 1940, '41?
GR: Yeah, late '41. And then also . We was
close and we used to battle all the time.
SH: Well tell me about Charlie Parker. You mentioned as
soon as he came on board you had trouble with him in '38.
What kind a guy was he? You said when he was young, he was
kinda sulky and withdrawn, but once you got to know him,
how was he? As a person .
GR : He was nice. I think of Charlie as a guy who could've
been talented, I wouldn 't say genius, but could've been
talented in any field he tried. Ee was a nice, considerate
guy and we had like a nice family as far as the band was
concerned. He loved to jam and I loved to j am. We had
another guy that--and by the way I had a band--I got to go
back a little bit--I had a band at Western University . I
had a 14 piece band at Western University . And so the trum­pet
player who was really the first bebop trumpet playe r
was in my band at Western University.
RAMEY 33
SH: Howard McGee?
GR: No. Long before Howard McGee. Buddy Anderson. He's
the one that Miles Davis has always raved about. And so I
brought him into Jay McSha~~·s band. So now we--in '38 and
like that, just the 3 of us used to go in and jam. The
trumpet player and Charlie and myself. We were the only
ones that took an interest in jammin'. The rest of 'em was
out chasin' the chicks or somethin' else. So we used to go
and sometime when we got off work and stay out daylight,
sometime 9, 10 o'clock jamming, you know. Working out
things.
SH: That's when you'd go out in the parks?
GR: Right.
SH: What about "Prez"? Lester Young as a person.
GR: Well he's, I'd say, one of the nicest guys in the world.
His favorite word was "no evil spirits." And he was just
like that.
SH: That's just the way he took it.
GR: Yeah. 'Cause he had a--you notice that fast change in
his life, he was married interracially. And when he was
inducted into the army and he was somewhere in Alabama, I
think, or somewhere in Mississippi, Alabama. Anyway, he
brought his wife down there. And right away they found a
reason to put him in the--what's it's name. He liked to
talk about how every night they'd come out there and have
target practice on his head.
SH: Oh boy.
GR: And there was a musician named Gill Evans--you've
probably heard of him?
RAMEY 34
SH: Yeah.
GR: Was the one that finally managed to get him freed of
it. Well after that, they whipped 11 Pre~ 11 so badly that if
you notice that when he came out of the army, his whole
thing different and everything.
SH: Go ahead. Charlie Parker'd have a thousand dollars in
his pocket. And then what?
GR: But he had a method that always put you on the defen-sive.
As soon as he'd see you, he'd say, 11Let me have a
dollar ... Right away you don't think he's got any money, so
you won't bother him. So that was his routine. He would
then take the dollar from you.
SH: Let everybody think he was broke all the time.
GR: Yeah. He would do that. Many a night I had to get up,
X
and I lived up in the Bron~ then, and we worked in Man-hatt~
downtown. And when ·we were not workin'--I worked
across the street from him. 52nd Street. When we weren't
at work I 1 d get a phone maybe 5 or 6 o•clock in the mornin'.
Some cab driver standin' there and got his monkey wrench out
and knock Bird in the head 'cause Bird won't pay his cab
fare.
SH: You had to pay a lot of cab fares for him.
GR: I ended up payin' a lots of room rents and everything.
SH: Do you regret it? I mean the money he took you for?
GR: No, no. In New York I had gotten the name, they had
started callin' me his guardian. He would do things, he
did nice things for me. That's why I say he really didn't
owe me anything. Although financially I spent a whole lots
RAMEY 35
GR: on him . But one time he bought me a coat made of bear
skin. And I think he paid 2 or 3 hundred dollars for--that's
when he first got the job with Earl- Hines . And the funny
thing about that, we had played the Paradise Theatre in
Detroit and we were closin'. And Earl• Hines called up and
said he wanted Bird to come to rehearsal that night. They
wanted to hear him.
SH: What year was that?
GR: 1942. He came back to us---
SH: After he l eft when he got all unhappy with it.
GR: Yeah. Everytime you ' d look up he was back with us.
And so anyway, he carne back to us and he was pretty high
that night. I told him , I said I'd bring him up there but
I can 't stay ' cause we gotta leave at 6 o'clock this mornin'.
That rehear sal was gonna begin at 12 o'clock after our last
show. So I took him up there. Now Bird was so sure that he
had the job , so he said , '' Don't worry, Ramey." He said, "I'll
make it, because I'll get the job." But anyway he stayed
there and Earl• listened to him but Earlw decided he didn ' t
wanna take him. You know how he was. Detroit.
But lucky for him Andy Kirk came through next day and so
Bird got a job with Andy Kirk. And that 's what got him out
of back to New York .
SH: Well I'm sure he had a pretty bad reputationbuthe had
so much talent, the people would take him on anyway. Even
though they knew he was trouble?
GR: Yeah . Well Bird was quite a confidencer too . He
could--one time, I'll give you an example of this. Back in
RAMEY 36
GR: 1 42 when we played we used to have to play a matinee
at the Savoy Ballroom on Sundays. And Bird had gotten to
the singer's wife. Her name was Jean Brown . Walter Brown ' s
wife. He'd gotten to her andgotthe last $5.00 she had.
And so when Brown came home his wife told him that Bird had
told her that she would slip him the $5.00 . So when Brown
got to the matinee that evening he was mad . He tore right
into Bird. They were standin' there . Both of 'em was high
as a kite. So it was like a slow motion fight with no
blows landin'. So anyway 10 minutes later Bird had con­fidenced
Walter Brown and Brown had his arms around him and
they say, "All right."
SH: (laughter) Just talked him right out of it.
GR: Talked him right out of it . And the same thing, you
know Bird was never arrested. And that situation on that
Camarilla thing, I think he was just smart enough to play
crazy. 'Cause otherwise he was goin' to jail for havin'
takenoneof those trips. But Bird was never arrested.
Anytime a cop stopped him he ended up almost puttin' the
cop in jail . (laughter)
SH: What was your absolute best experience as a musician?
You r emember any one gig or any one tour where everything
you did was just right and everything that the band did
was just right? When it got as good as it gets?
Side 2 of tape.
GR: A guy named Eddy on drums and a piano player from
Minneapolis. And we had a groove there one night. It was
in the summertime and they had the front door open . And we
RAMEY 37
GR: looked up and all of the musicians from all of the
clubs out there at the bar. Somebody had gone and told 'em,
said, "You should get that groovin ' that the guys are playin'."
And it was so exciting that after that I started to teamin'
c~tc~
with Sid eab~ until he went with Louie Armstrong. Ee
decided that he'd rather work with me than the bass player
that he had. But it was one of those things you can hit
from time to time when you hit it and hold it. But we hit
one and held it for the whole night.
SH: Well that's unusual to maintain one for what? 4, 5, 6
hours with intensity? And you r eally don't have any way of
tellin' when you're gonna hit it, do you?
GR: No . That 's right. Your-' system is just so and so.
Give you an. example, last night I felt good , but I had
taken 2 as~ins before I went to the job . And I just wasn't--
my what's it's name wasn't until late last night. I just,
everything was off. I couldn't anticipate what was goin '
on or nothin' .
SH: Hard to tell from the seats out front that you weren 't
anticipatin' everything .
GR: Well I felt like I wanted to get into i t but I just say
that those asprins had just slowed my thinkin' up, numbed me
just enough so I couldn't get through . But now later on
that night we had a thing goin'.
SH: You mean the last set?
GR : Yeah. Was that the last set?
SH : After we l e ft?
RAMEY 38
GR: The last set, that was screamin'.
SH: Well we sure hated to leave but we'd been up a long
time. Well what was your--if you had one--your absolutely
worst time in music? Where nothin' worked.
GR: I had so many of those. That's the majority of the
cases. Well I think I have one of those complexes that I'm
always persecuting myself.
SH: How do you go about shapin' a solo on the string bass?
Do you think ahead of yourself as you go, or how does that
work?
GR: No. It never pays to anticipate. There are some guys -­if
you ever heard that trumpet solo by Doug Bascom on Tuxedo
Junction, Hershall Hawkins, Tuxedo Junction, that beautiful
solo. Now that was premeditated. That meant if he had missed
one note you could have thrown him off the beat.
SH : He did that every time. I mean he did the same solo
every time.
GR: Every time. Yeah. But I never anticipate. I don't
even know what I'm gonna do until---
SH: Yeah . But when you get into it.
GR: One phrase brings on another .
SH: Yeah. You don't have a general area blocked out or
anything. You just follow it wherever it leads you, wherever
you start out.
GR: Well as I said, we used to do lots of jamming and re­hearsing
with Bird and Buddy Anderson, and a few in Kansas
City. I spent a lots of time hearing and, I guess, absorb­ing
lots of things that they had been doin'.
RAMEY 39
SH: Let's get back to your career. We left you in 1944
IVA/ . . .
when the McSha~ band broke up. W1ll you JUSt br1efly
summarize from there until the present each of your major
stops?
GR: Well let me tell you this, first. I don't know, I
might've gotten in bad. In '44 I had taken over the band ,
Jay !"'N, b . . McSha~ s and,on several occas1ons, many occas1ons.
When he was sick or when he was out when he had all those
battles with induction and everything . And so it was agreed
that I would take over the band and keep it intact until
he got back from the service. Now the bookin' agent, and
the manager and McSharon had agreed that I was to take it
over. But 1. t was supposed to be t h e Jay McShNa~N band
under the direction of Gene Ramey , featuring Walter Brown .
Well we played that last night in Kansas City--it was in
May '44--and at 12:00 the army MP's or whatever you call it
came and took McSha~ off the stand. This was his last
goodby , you know . So we shook hands and it was agreed then
that I'd take it over . But as soon as he left the agent
told me that they had decided to keep down complications,
NN not to use Jay McShaBeH's name . It would be Walter Brown
and his band under the direc tion of Gene Ramey . Well I
immediately told them "No." Now they had booked a lots of
things ahead , you know. When I told ' em , "No" the whole
band said, "No, we're not goin ' either." So this broke the
back of the band right then and there. I might have got
myse l f in bad permanently with the agencies for that. I
RM-1EY 40
GR: didn't think of it. The only thing I realized, the
way I felt, was that if they're gonna do this, they might
use me for trumpet player for 3 months and then kick me out.
SH: The agreements were no good.
GR: Right. So I just decided not to take it. So I went
to work for Saul at the Reno. I stayed in Kansas City and
went to work for Saul a t the Reno for about 5 weeks. By the
way, I have a f~rmfly in Kansas City and a family in New York,
too. So I was right at home in Kansas City but I wanted to
get back to New York 'cause I had my house there and every­thing.
And I stayed with him 5 or 6 weeks at the Reno. And
Louie Russell's band came through. So he asked me if I
could leave right away and I said, "Yeah. I will leave now."
And so· I went back to New York with Louie Russell. I stayed
with him from about the middle of July until October. And
then Hot Lips Page asked me why didn't I come on down to
52nd Street with him. So I said, "OK." I had to go and
apply for a union card before they would let me work. And
they put me on--all musicians then, it was so many musicians
in the local area though too, that they were discouragin'
as many as they could from joinin'. So they had a thing
the re where you had to be on 6 months probation before you
could become a regular member.
SH: I think maybe they still have that where you can just
work one-nighters.
GR: Right. One-nighters. I don 't know whether it's still
in existence.
SH: I think it still i s.
~y 41
GR: Well anyway I admit that I couldn't work with any out-of-
town musicians. So we had a hard time breakin' down that
----- down there . Like they had blocked me everytime,
although I had done some outstanding things with Louie
Russell at the Apo{1o Theatre , I was second feature. Louie
Weeden was the head star and I was next. So I'd go down and
solo and practically break the house up but they were deter-mined
to keep me out of 52nd Street. But this manager came
and tried doin' the off nights , Monday and Tuesday. And
finally he got me in.
NN
But anyway McShaPeH got out of the
service and he came back and so a man asked me to go back
N/11
with McSha~. I said, "Well you know I can't even play
NN
with McShaPeH now. I~m on probation. I got to wait till
April before I can play with a Kansas City musician or any
other musician outside of 802." So he kinda got bitter.
He told me, he said, "Wel l you listen. You may as well go
back to Kansas City 'cause we're not gonna let you make it
here."
SH: Who was this tellin' you that?
GR : Well I don't wanna call the name.
SH: Was it a musician or agent?
GR: He was an agent. And so from that time on I had to
discover places but I got in with the right band.
Musicians and things.
SH : So you finally broke through.
GR: Broke through pretty good. Still I was never sati sfied
with my recording. Everybod~ by that time tt had become a
thing of--Jimmy Blanton--­i9J!
ild ' ,s voice)
RAMEY 42
SH : We're recording.
GR: We are taping right now. So can you wait a few moments
and then I'll talk to you? Afterwhile? OK? So everybody
has been affected by the big beautiful sound that Jimmy
Blanton had . And so that's the only kinda sound that they
wanted to hear. They still only wanted to hear that sound on
bass. But I'm a disciple of Walter Page and he plays a sharp,
crisp but a driving sound which--more staccato like, you
know . And these recordings that I did, I 've recorded with
practically every name musician that there is. But on most of
the recording dates I'd ask the man, 11 Don 't 11 --they thought
that by turning me up they could make my notes sound long.
I didn't want 'em long. But they made me sound more staccato
after that. Not being the big star on the record I didn't
have any voice at all. In fact I would make the man mad if
I said, 11 Don't turn me like that. Leave me down so I can
be in the rhythm section and you can just get that pulsa-tion."
It didn't work like that.
SH : They 'd always bring you up.
GR: Bring me up and then make me sound more staccato. And
o~~ce
it wasn't until Stanley ~nes came over from England and
criticized them for doin' that that they started givin' me
a little consideration on my recordings.
SH: Name some of the people you 've recorded with.
GR : Now this would take about a few hours. I've started
with the drummers.
SH: Well let's start with the bands.
GR: The bands? Oh well . I recorded, naturally , with Jay
RA!-1EY 43
GR: McS h aN~N, Count Bas1. e, and Lou1. e Russe 11 , Ear1 ¢ H.1 nes .
Indiv iduals: Dizzy Gillespie, and SarahVaughan, Stan Getz ,
rhe u..
~oni~s Monk. What's the blind pianist from Eng l and?
SH: Shearing?
GR: George Shearing, and Lenn;e Tristano, Billy Taylor .
SH: There's a sweet guy .
GR: Yeah. Wonderful guy . A funny thing happened. He had
the small band at Birdland on the off-night , and I had the
~n~C~S
big band. And I organized the Jazz Mess~ and that's---
SH: Art Blakley?
GR: Yea~ . We made a corporation and actually every Monday
night I'd hire different musicians. And on this particular
Monday night I hired them. Lou Johnson , Horace Silver, Art
Blakley . Kenny Durham was there. And we stayed together for
about 3 months before Art Blakley decided he wanted to take
it all on his own. But I recorded with them. Oh I can't
name all of 'em. Si r Charles Thompson , Buck Clayton, Jimmy
Rushing and Lester Young, Roy Eldridge , Buster Gary, Eartha
Kitt. Oh and Horace Silver and his group .
SH: Did you ever work with Armstrong?
GR : I worked 2 days with Armstrong but that was onl y a
fill-in for Orval Shaw .
Edmvnd
SH: But it was when ~ Hall was ?
GR : No, no. That was after that. And a funny thing , I got
a letter in my suitcase here--as soon as--I retired from
music in '66, you know.
SH: No, I didn't know.
RAMEY 44
GR: Yeah. I went into the Chase Manhattan Bank, the loan
department there. And the day that I took that job at Chase
Manhattan I got a letter from Joe Morainian. Don't know
whether you know him.
SH : Yeah. I know him.
GR: Tellin' me that Joe Blazer wanted to see me right away,
wanted me to join the band in 2 days. I thought I ' d go on
and take it, I said, "No." I said, "If I do I'll be right
back on that alcohol thing.~
SH : Is that why you quit music?
GR : Yeah.
SH : Booze?
GR: It was--! was seeing myself becoming an alcoholic.
SH: Yeah. That just become a part of your scene? If you
had music you had booze?
GR: No. In New York , after they got rid of those hostesses ,
or those girls that they kinda e ncouraged the
musicians to sit at all the tables. And if you sit at a
table and people offer you a drink , and they 're insulted if
you say, "No." And sometime I'd go home And every
day I ' d get up thankin' God for lettin' me live and prom i sin ~
that I wouldn't touch it again. And by 10:00 that night I
had taken it again. And I spoke to a friend of mine and he
told me, he said, "Listen. The only way you ' re gonna get
away from the alcohol is get away from the environment ."
He said, "Well it's gonna be hard but it's your choice . Now
if you wanna break it, that's the way you ' re gonna have to
do it."
RAMEY 45
SH: Well that was more than 30 years you ' d been into music
before you quit.
GR : Oh yeah. From 1930 up until 1966. Now I continued to
play but I played in countr y c l ubs, and I played mostl y with
the Dixieland musicians and the country club--better jobs
actually . But I only play like one or two nights a week.
I think I played every country club in the New York area .
sn: Well that got you outta the scufflin ' and the foul air
of the night c l ubs , and that whol e scene there .
GR: Right . I think it saved my life to tell you t he truth
'cause I look at my friends wh o ' ve gone on, all from
alcoholism. 'Course Prez had a l ready died . But Red Allen ,
we were in that same boat together. Buster Bailey .
SH: Coleman Hawkins.
GR : Coleman Hawkins . Jimmy Webste r, Don Byers . Everybody
ended up with that liver thing .
SH : I heard that Bob Wilbur--I 'm sure you know Bob.
GR : Yeah . Very well.
SH : Told me that lt ~Hawkins was drinkin ' a quart of
brandy a n ight just straight .
GR : Well I do know this. Col eman Hawkins kept a half gal lon
o f whi skey by his bedside everyday .
SH : Wow!
GR : rcause I used to go get him and t ake him fishin' t o try
to get him away f r om it . He ' d say, "Well I got to bri ng my
o l d l ady with me." I'd say , "Man , we ' re goin' fish in '."
He ' d say , "I'm talkin' about this o l e lady ."
SH: Well you could r eally hear it in his last recordings .
RAMEY 46
SH: They're really sad, you know?
GR: Yeah. I recorded with him. As I said it's gonna be
hard for me to recoll ect .
SH: Well it's easier to say who you haven't recorded with
then who you have.
GR: Right . 'Cause I think I've recorded with every known
drummer of that era.
SH: Who was your favorite drummer?
GR: Well I got to say Sid c:47l~Jtr.
SH : Big Sid?
GR : Bill Johnson Shadow Wilson . I like Kenny
Parker and Max Roach . I recorded with them too. For the
all around versatility I like Sid Ca__T[ ~ 7T.
SH: Did you ever play with Kansas Fields?
GR: Yeah . I played with him at Birdland. Oh there were
so many great ones too. Sonny Payne.
SH: Cliff Leeman .
GR : Cliff Leeman.
SH: He was with Basie.
GR : Yeah .
ch
SH: Ray Badu~?
GR: Yeah. I didn ' t record with him but I worked with Ray.
Shelly Mann , Stan Levy, Ed Shaunessey .
SH: Did you ever work with Krupla or Buddy Rich, any of the
drummers?
GR : I recorded with Buddy Rich. I worked with Krupla
but I never recorded with him. What was the drummer ' s name
that took his place? I did lots of recording with him.
~y 47
SH: Took Krupa's place?
GR: Yeah. The little thin guy, so quiet and everything.
SH: Yeah. I don't know his name.
GR: Well anyway he was a tasty drummer. Nothin' exciting
but just you to death. I did so many recording dates
with--lots of the musicians that I recorded with I didn't
even know then and I probably forgot 'em as soon as I left.
SH: Yeah.
GR: But I still like Sid CAT/e TT" for overall things.
SH: Well and he could pretty well do all of it, and do it
all well.
GR: Yeah. I tell you a guy I worked with that you didn't
know was a drummer. Sugar Ray Robinson.
SH: Oh really? The fighter? Yeah?
GR: Yeah. We used to play together.
SH: Was he a pretty good drummer?
GR: Good. He was kinda heavy and noisy. He didn't have
his things together. But he kept good time and he could
swing. The only thing, he was overpowering, that sort of
thing, you know.
SH:
GR:
Yeah.
GA; !/ Q('d
I did a lots of those things with Slim ~d.
Blow you out.
to do lots of recording with him.
SH: Oh really?
Used
GR: In fact we were on the staff with the Jerry Loftis
show. We did that one year.
GAtilA#Q.d
SH: Well am I confusin'--Slim ~-l~~d also a bassist? Or
who am I thinkin' about?
RAMEY 48
GR: No, you ain't. Slam Stewart.
SH: Slam Stewart. Yeah.
GR: Slim was the other partner of that group . Slim and Slam.
sn~ Yeah. Well I, oh 25, 30 years ago, heard a record of
~A;fiAAd
Bam Brown and Slim Ga,luzd.
GR: Yeah. Yeah.
SH: Whi ch I would give my ear---
GR: Brown was with Slim out in California.
SH: Well it was---
GR: And when he came to New York, then I worked with him.
Panama Francis and I worked with him .
SH: Well this record--you may have heard it--they would
play anything from Jingle Bells to Flat Foot Floogie and
Slim would call all of it the "Groove Juice Special."
GR: Yeah. (laughter)
SH: Did you ever hear that?
GR: I know he used t hat word a lot but I never---
SH : Well he'd introduce whatever they were playin' . It
was an old 10 inch LP.
SH: And it was a real kick . A real fun thing .
GR: I'll say. They tell me he's still goin' strong in
Las Vegas . We did the All Star Review on NBC. In fact we
got just about so that , although we were workin ' at Birdland
together, but we had just had all the television things
sewed up . In fact I did the Eddie Carmen
jazz on television. But that wasn't with
That was with Eddie Carmen and Teddy Wi lson and Koobie
RAMEY 49
GR: Williams and---
SH: Did you work much with Herb Hall in New York?
GR: No. In fact Herb was--I made one recording date with
Herb. And then in late years after I went into bankin' I
made quite a few jobs with him. But before that I hardly
knew him.
SH: Well he's a fine musician.
GR: Yeah. He is great. And his brother--! mean I came
out here to Texas with Ed out to Midland and Odessa.
SH: Oh out to the jam with the festival out there?
GR: Well it wasn't festival then . This was '64 or '65. I
think it was '64 we came out and we played that hotel there.
There was a roof garden on the hotel and we played the
country club in Midland. Ed was great too.
SH: Yeah. Ed's a fine player. I really enjoyed his work
with Armstrong about the mid '50s. It was just before Louie
lost his lip. In my estimation. He stopped being a jazz
man and became an entertainer. And I think he was very
smart to do that because he realized , I think, his limita­tions.
GR: Well he wasn't gonna be able to get over that horn like
he had been before.
SH: Yeah. He just kinda backed off of it. What d'you
think about the future of jazz? See much signs of it kinda
revivin'?
GR: Yeah. Well you know there's been a great effort to kill
jazz in America. In fact, a friend of mine from Yale
started tellin' us about 1957, said , "Now you better get
out of it ' cause there ' s a campaign out to kill jazz ."
RAMEY 50
SH: By whom?
GR: Certain factions. I don't wanna say. We know who it
was. But they'd line it all up makin ' all jazz
musicians and crazy people or someEhinr. And
just degrading jazz.
SH: •course rock and roll helped.
GR: No. It wasn't anybody like that. It was an organiza­tion.
And so we saw it go down. But now jazz is comin'
back. And the good thing about it, places where it wasn't
going before, now it's going. It's going in churches; it's
going in private homes.
SH: Maybe Jim told you. We had a jazz mass at our church
in June. It was my wife's idea and then I got Jim together
with the preacher and we drew over 800 people. And we had
the Happy Jazz Band plus Herb. And it was quite an experience.
There were people there who hadn't been to church since
1935. And people weeping. It was really somethin'.
GR: Well you see this is what--sometimes when they try to
kill somethin' like that it makes the desire for it even
greater . And now it's comin' into the churches. I did
quite a few of those things in New Yo~. And around New
York and so forth. And it's not only in the night club
now. Several of those things I do in New York now go
one hour. Next Friday in Chicago I'm only gonna do 45
minutes. Go all the way there just to do 45 minutes and
you come back home. I did the Berlin Festival year before
last. Went over there and did one hour and got on the plane
and came back.
RAMEY 51
SH: How do you keep in shape playing t hat litt l e? You
know you(fingers were sore earlier this week.
GR: Yeah . I tell you I just--I got a few stucents and I
practice all the time. I got a little farm up in Round Rock
but this year I just decided that it's not all that interest-ing
as I thought it would be. These last 3 years I just--
6 o'clock in the morning I'd be out there plowin' and work-in'
in the place. And now--that heat also gave me an idea
that--I'm up here in heat.
SH: Yeah. You don't need to be out in hundred degee tern-peratures
workin'.
GR: Right. I just decided to get out of it and now I prac-tice
all day. I kinda do like Jim does. Get off by myself
and just practice, and practice, and practice and try this ,
and try that. I get my bow out and try a little bit. But
still it's not like playing. That 's why, although I do all
that practicin' I had to get some new corns.
SH : Right. Well how 'bout this avant-garde? I've heard
some jazz people say that that's a violation of the truth
in advertising. It's not jazz.
GR: Well you know that ' s a funny thing , but where did the
avant- garde begin? Now we'd almost have to say that that
started with Coltra~and . 'Cause I didn't like
that music simply because they believed in quarter sound .
They say that sound comes from Mexico. I never heard it
. . h (VF- down here . But anyway the1r th1ng was to me , w at Coltra~
and them were doin' was to sound like confusion sometimes.
You never got a ny point . But I believe that's where the
avant- garde began.
RAMEY 52
SH: I think so.
GR: And so they're callin' everything jazz now . I think
if somebody would be able to draw a line--now I can see
what the commercial establishment is tryin' to do . When we
were kids it was called chamber music. But it sounded like
jazz . We used to hear that little German band and, prettiest
thing in the world, you know . They were playing light
symphonies and stuff . Some of that's called jazz. I'd
rather hear it being called the little German band and
appreciated like that.
D
But ~nette Coleman--that's a guy
-:::;.
from Texas t oo , his thing was no key signature .
and everything. I think jazz should tell a story.
SH: Well the Colemans and Coltra~ and people like that,
to me they don't leave any way for me to get into their
music . It's very cold and distant , and hard, and confusing
and boring at times .
GR: Right. Well I'll tell you somethin' . I opened--we
officially opened Birdland with Miles Davis' people . I
had been workin' with !1iles betore but as Art Blakley said ,
we opened there with Sonny ---- , J . J . Johnson, Buck
Powell, Hil es , Art Blakley and myself--and we ' re swingin '
like mad, you know. And we get through and the people were
just so awed they'd stand up and applaud. And so Art looked
over at me and said, "I don't know what the hell those
people are applaudin ', they don't know what we're doin'
' cause I don't know what we're doin' myself." And that's
true.
RA!".EY 53
GR: You know we're playing the stuff, I'm r ead i ng the music . But
I didn 't understand where he was qoin'.
SH : "'Jell, what happene0 to Miles Davis? Y.Then he d i d Bitch's
Brew everything s eemed t o ch ange . Hiles Davis seeroeo to put a
lot of distance between himself ana people who like music .
GR: Well you know, I don't whether it was made public out here ,
but ~il es had a terrible beatin' in 1958. Fe ¥!as beaten to a pulp
by the police department in New York . ~nd he's neve r been the
sa~e. Just like "Prez" was .
SH: Like Lester Young , huh?
GR : And he became bitter.
8H: Ye ah. Well it sure started showin ' up in his playin '.
GP: Miles always a nything. He was arroaant . But I
t h ink that's what r eally set him off .
SH : I ' m gonna b reak in here just for a second .
(Tape turned off)
t.L
GR: And I worked with -1'hel oni~s Honk too. And there again , t here ' s
another guy that was a victim of a terrible beatin '. Bud PowelJ
was a lso was a victim of a terrible beatin ' .
SH : F-11 police?
GR: Yeah . So you see what happened to their brains after---
SH : Yeah. And their attitudes.
GR : Yeah .
8H : Well you ' ve mentioned , you know , you aot out of musi c because
you wanted to get away from dri nkin'· And you had a family . How
was family l ife wi th being a musici an, being on the road all night?
GR: Yeah. I was married 3 times and then I lived corn~on l aw a
couple a times .
RAMEY 54
8H: Well would you say you life as a musician entered into your
trouble stayin' married?
GR: Oh, that did it. That did it. Definitely.
SH: That and booze?
GR: No. The booze didn't have anythinq--I never became an
alcoholic. On my nights off, and like that, I would stay away
from the club and never thought about a drink. And most mus icians
around New York, when they get up in the mornina, that's the first
place they head is for the bar . Well I hated the bar. I wouldn't
go in a bar, in fact I woulon't take a drink in the C.ayti~e. So
it wasn't that I had to have it or anything like that. But the
only thing was that I couldn't refuse it.
SH: job.
GR: Yeah . And then I began to see myself as gettin ' worse . And
then watching my friends, especially--! always kept in mind about
Blanton. And what killed Blanton v.Jas the fact that--he v!as younq
and handsome and there were lots of wo~en that liked to party with
him and everything . ~~d so he woulo stay up all the time at niqht .
Sometimes he wouldn't get an hour sleep.
SH : So he just burned himself out.
GR: Right. Charley Christian was say ing---
SH : Like they said of Bix Beiderbecke he didn't die of a cold.
He died of everything.
GR: Yeah. That's right.
SH: It all caught up with him.
che.L
GR: The same thing happened with Hers~. Evans, al thouqh he v1as
a little bit more settled than
RM1EY 57
GR: just imagine I can hear ' em. "Oh, honey, you may as
well go ahead and play ' cause we---", you know , that sort of
thing. And plus the fact that the wives naturally get lone-some,
when you're gone and gone and gone. They don't hear
from yo~. But anyway , I attribute it all to--my first wife
had 4 kids. And we broke up--married in ' 34 and broke up in
'41. And my babies were--wasn't even 2 years old. Married
again and that lasted about a year and a half . And I married
again and that lasted about 8 years. And then from then on I
just started shackin'. (laughter)
SH : Right . Less complicated.
GR : That 's right. You can leave when you get ready then.
SH: When did you come back to Austin?
GR : April the 14th, 1976.
~
SH: Well did you retire from Chase Manhatt~n, or were you
there long enough to---
GR: Yeah. I got a little pension now from Chase. The 31st
of December was my retirement date. I decided I'd rather
come home to Texas because I know what would happen with my
daughters in New York, and I've got 4 kids in Kansas City .
And I said, "I don ' t wannabe where any of them are. "
SH: Well you came back and bought a farm?
GR : I bought a house and then I bought a farm . Actually I
had bought the farm in 1961. That ' s when Herb Hall and I
started to talk about--and he kept tellin' me, "I'm goin'
back to Texas." I said , "I'm goin ' too." I said, "I just
thought we ' d farm out there."
SH: Well you all aren 't that far apart . Do you see each other
RAMEY 58
SH: very often?
GR: Haven 't seen him since I've been back. I've talked to him
on the phone a couple of times.
SH: I talked to him just yesterday.
GR: Oh yeah?
SH : Yeah. We stay in pretty close touch. ~y wi fe told me that
Annie's adopted her.
GR: Yeah. Yeah . I don't know his wife that '1;<7ell . I ' ve just
been around her a couple of times.
SH: Well she's a great lady. A rare one . A good manager and all
that. She takes care of everythinq but the music , and Herb takes
care of that.
GR: Yeah. That's great.
SH: Well in all of your 30 some years in music, were you able to
put some of that money aside from all your recording and working?
Or was that---
GR: Well that's another thing. All that glitters ain't gold .
They have that t hing about--to give you an example , in Kansas City
we were makin ' $38 a week . I was at home with my family . And
that was-- now this was in 1938 up until '4 4 . We left-- I said '28
or '38?
SH : ' 38 .
GR : We were makin' $28 a week in Kansas City . $4 a night. We
worked 7 nights a week though . And when·we went to New York I
promised Jay McSha~, I said, "You know the first thinq I'm gonna
do? By June I'm gonna buy you a brand new Buick~ Just ' cause we
were so tight , you know . I mean we ' d been through all this heart-ache
together. Got to New York, and the first thing we found out,
FAHEY 60
SH: Makin' $33 a week.
GR: Right. And finally it got better after--say I went to 52nd
Street and you know, like that. I left the band. Then I start
to makin' more . Actually, I didn't intend to go with Count Basie.
'Cause I was a house man. Joe Jones and I was a house man at
Birdland. Anybody came in there, they had to work with Joe anc
myself. But Basie had some trouble. It all happened right here
in San Antonio. The bass player started goin' with--he and another
guy in the band, found out they were aoin' with the same woman.
SH: Was this still Page or somebody else.
GR: No. This was a little band that Basie had. And so they
left here and went to Denver and got there--Georqe Shearinq was
travelin' with 'em. And they had a guy named Al that
was playing bass with George Shearing. So he called me at Bird­land
and said, "Do me a favor." Said, "I cannot play behind both
these bands." Said, "This other boy left because he was havin '
trouble with the other guy." So he said, "Do me a favor and come
out here and work with us until Basie can get somebody." So I
said, "Well what kinda money?" He says, "Well v7e' 11 try to make
it worth your while ." I said, "Well have Basie to call me." So
Basie called me and I said, "Well listen . I can give you 6 weeks ."
Basie says, "Wonderful. All right. I'll have somebody there." I
stayed there 8 months. And I found Basie wasn't tryin' to find
nobody.
SH: What year was this?
GR: I went there in October of '52. And I stayed there until
June of '53. I p l ayed right here. The funny thing that happened
RAMEY 61
GR: here in San Antonio--we played a dance here . Somebody had a
after- party for the band, some black guy somewhere. And so we
drove the bus on over here and Gus and Paul Clinashay---
SH: Gus Johnson?
GR: Yeah. And Lockjaw Davis. We had to change our clothes ' cause
we get wet. So we stayed on the bus and changed our clothes. I
was the last one to come in , get outta the bus and come in. You
know this guy wouldn't let me in? He say, "You that same SOB
that's been--everytime I have a after-party for somebody, you're
the same guy ." He say, "You're not with Count Basie ." He said ,
If you don't get out, I'll break your jaw."
SH: Who was this? Where did you play?
GR: It was somewhere after the party . Somewhere, I guess, over
on the East side , somewheres. Anyway , they had---
SH : I mean what club did you play?
GR: We played the auditorium . We played the auditorium.
SF: Oh. Concert then.
GR : Yeah. And then the place was packed.
SH: Well, maybe the Keyhole was where you went. Don Albert's
club? For after---
GR: It was a little club. Something that was on the street level .
But I don't remember. Back in '53 it was, April of '53. And--­SH:
Did you get in?
GR: I finally got -----, but after I qot in , I was so mad, I
said
SH: I wouldn 't think so. Accused of being a phoney .
RAMEY 62
GR: Yeah . He said, 11 You're not with that band . 11 He said ,
11Every time we have a party for these bands, you're the same
one , you 're face is here. Get out or I'll break your head."
Well San Antonio has been a lots in my life.
SH : And here you are again for , what? Three weeks?
GR : For 3 weeks, yeah . I'm enjoying it too. I had heard
about this band. And you've heard of Bobby Gordon? Do you
know him?
SH: Oh yeah. I knew Bobby when he was here.
GR: I had worked with him as much as Sammy back in '61. And
he was such a promisin' young musician. Back in, I guess around
'70 or '70 something, I just asked him, "Whatever happened to
Bobby Gordon?" He said , "Oh he 's playin' with some little ol '
rinky dink band out in San Antonio . 11 And I had got that fixed
in my mind that this was just a rinky dink band, you know. I
got out here and I found out there's a genius at every post.
And admit that I had to catch up, ' cause all these guys can play .
SH : They can really play .
GR: But I had gotten the impression that here's some sad
musicians out here, got a Dixieland Band . They can't blow
their nose. One of those things. But I told Jim, I said ,
"That was the biggest surprise that I had when I walked upon
the stand . I said, 11 I just knew that I was gonna have to
pull this band . You all carried me . " Yes sir .
Doesn 't pay to underestimate people .
SH: It's a powerhouse.
GR: It sure is. It's the idea of gettin' the musicians
RAHEY 63
GR: to entertain . I just was lookin' out there over the
audience that first night and I asked Jim, I said , "Now who
is the number one jazz lover in here tonight?" All these
people here look like they're so crazy about jazz that you
can ' t pick out any particular one . Most
SH: Pick somebody out to play to?
GR: Yeah . You pick out some guy and name him as the number
one jazz lover in the town. But everybody there--why you
look over--see the thing we used to have years ago was--you
may not feel like you're doin' anything, but look under the
table. If you see anybody pat their feet, you know you got
'em. everywhere you can see (sound of foot patting) .
So this band is really looked up to. It's the truth. In
fact they wouldn't be here that long if they hadn ' t .
SH: Well, of course you know, they 've come a long way from
a--part-time , businessmen p l ayin' 2 nights a week is what
they played in the original Landing. Friday and Saturday
night . And then when Jim's father died 7 years ago , Jim
started heading towards makin ' it a professional band. Arid
then they moved to a better location on the River . And I've
listened to this band ever since it started.
GR: You've seen the improvement .
SH: Oh my .
GR : They got good, able musicians at every corner . And it's
a pleasure.
SH: You can tell they enjoy their work .
GR: Yeah. Yeah. And you know the old saying. If you can
RAMEY 64
GR: get that family relationship, you usually can get some­thin'
gain'. And they got that family relationship.
SH: You seem to be havin' a ball with all of 'em last night.
You and John Sheridan particularly seem to have a little
rapport goin1 back and forth there.
GR: Yeah. And what's his name there, the drummer, man ,
that's my buddy.
SH: Oh Kevin Hess?
GR: Kevin. Yeah.
SH: 23 years old.
GR: Yeah.
SH: Been drummin' since he was 12, I guess.
GR: Right. He's talented. He's a young genius . Now I can
put him close to the SidCA7ZeTrthing .
SH: That's quite a compliment. That's quite a compliment.
GR: The only thing I would say is--well I've never seen him
playing outside of Dixieland. Dixieland you have to play a
little heavier. The only thing I would say is that if I can
hear him where I coul d judge him--'cause I know he knows
everything to do.
used to play it.
And then he plays this solo like
You know used to play--he could
take Stardust and play Stardust so you'd know it on drums.
SH: Yeah. Play the melody. Well Kevin has been--you can
hear the melody comin' out of those drums. You sure can.
GR : Yeah. The guy's a talented young guy .
SH : Jim is really a dedicated--he 's put in an enormous
amount of effort over the years to make this thing go and
then keep it gain'.
RM1EY 65
GR: Yeah. Well it's paying off. Now this is somethi ng unusual
for band leaders. See how dedicated he is . Usually when you
become a band leader, you get so wrapped up in the business
side of it, you forget about your instrument. But you see
what he does?
SH: He ' s practicin' every day.
GR: He practices every day and he shows that he 's still in
love with it.
SH: Jim had a jam session here last March. Kind of a re-union
of past and present members of the jazz band. And
~
Herb and Torn Vletcher, who plays cornet like Bix Beiderbecke.
He's the Sons of Bix Band. It 's a part-time amat~ur band.
But anyway, they were playin' and some dog came up and sat
right at the front door and howled for about three tunes.
Had a first-chair dog. I got it all on tape
Taped about 2 hours. hear this little ol ' dog out
there. Not happy at all.
GR: Well you know it's--remember that RCA Victor used to
have---
SH: Yeah. Sittin' there listenin' t o it.
GR:
SH: Well if you could do it over, would you change any-thing?
Would you still be a musician?
GR: Oh yeah . Yeah. The onl y thing I would change is I
would go into it more deeply than I did this time . One
thing, when I left Texas, first of all we didn't have too
many people who could teach you bass violin. The only bass
RAMEY 66
GR: violin I saw was B-string bass. All those sounds comin'
down from Kansas City had Sousaphones. And when I did get
the chance to learn it I was just gonna do it like for part­time,
'cause I didn't intend to make that my career. I
wanted to,really to go on and finish electrical engineering.
But if I had a chance to do it all over again, I would
really get in there. One thing that you guys say, as I said
before, they have--you can find teachers here now who'll
teach you on any instrument. When we were comin' up, I had
a man that could teach me bass horn, 'cause he didn't even
know what bass violin was like. And in those days it was
rare for you to ever get a white teacher that would fool with
you.
SH: Now you can do it.
GR: Yeah. Now you can do it.
SH: You can study and get your foundation and start instead
of pickin' it up a s you go along.
GR: Yeah. So if in traveling, if you watch bands when they
come through, you can tell which musician is from the East
Coast or from the West.
SH: How do you do that?
GR: Well first of all, the ones from the East Coast they have
a talent to play in a correct position, and usually they
play the same way. You can hear one, you can tell that he's
teacher-taught. Where most of us are like, what they say,
grassroots, because we make it our own way. Most of us use
those 2 strings mostly. We usually stay within the first 2
positions, where the young bass players that are coming up
today, they play all positions. Except those way down near
RN·iEY 67
GR: the bridge. But they play all positions. Now I was
never taught that. I was taught mostly on what kind of
pattern to use behind a man when he's takin' a solo. How to
lift him and what to do for the second chorus and the third
chorus. How to boot him, you know, like that.
SH: Yeah. How to give him a push.
I
GR: Yeah. 'Cause it was up to me to make the note the most
convenient. Now since I've been home I've been practicin' my
second and the third position. And makes it so much easier.
I'm down here instead of way back down in there. So if I had
a chance to do it all over again--it took me all that long
to just answer your question--I'd go more thoroughly. I'd
advise any musician that's gonna try to learn, to do that too.
Try to get in there and do his stuff.
SH: Some of the people I've talked with in this series of
interviews, there's some conce rn about t he younger musicians
who've grown up and don't know anything but rock. It's all
they've heard. And they're interested in jazz but all they
know are 3 chords and an amplifier. And they don't have
the equipment to play, now that they've found something more
interesting or diverse than rock.
GR: Well they are right. First of all, if you 'll notice
with the big bands--Woody Herman is able to get a few young
musicians, but you see he has to reach back and get old
musicians.
SH: Yeah . Well he gets his young ones right out of school
at North Texas State. He goes in and gets a section, but a
RAMEY 68
SH: lot of those guys don't have any understanding of the
roots of jazz at all.
GR: Well, let me tell you a funny thing. We have to go back
to bebop time. For an example, How High the Moon which were
old beautiful songs that were written by these great com­posers--
we even had Stardust and things rike that, where we
had made up a duplicate arrangement on it, like we play
"ba ba dum ba da with ba da bot ten bolee, ~· well that's whis­perin'.
We had these young musicians come in and the guy
would say, "Play the melody." The guy didn't know the melody.
Now this same thing is happenin' now in a more, as people
say, the younger musicians that come up don't even know what
they're supposed to do in a section. If they know any other
instruments besides guitar, they don't know what they're
supposed to do. This is the sad part of it. But one thing
I did like about New York, they had different areas, was
encouragin' young kids to buy an instrument, and encouragin'
kids to play Dixieland and things. And when we play those
concerts over there they'd have a whole row of little kids
in front to dig it.
SH: Well were you in--back to Billy Taylor. You know he has
a jazzmobile that goes all around town. That's, I think, a
whale of an idea.
GR: Yeah. I don't know whether he created that or not but
that was a great thing. Especially for those poor areas that
had never been able----
SH: I don't know if Billy carne up with the idea, but I know
~y 69
SH: he's been affiliated with it for quite a long time.
He's played San Antonio a couple of times in the last 3
years.
GR: Yeah. I heard that he was at the University of Texas
not long ago. I haven't seen him in some time .
SH: Billy Taylor's really not fair . You know he still
looks about 30 years old and he's right at double that.
GR: Yeah. He's at least 60, I would say. Well you know,
it 's a funny thing about Billy. Now here's a man with no
jazz connections previous , but he came to 52nd Street and he
got right in and we went to Birdland and he was there. The
guys don't consider him as any musical genius or anything.
But there 's somethin' about him that he's just always--he's
written books and everything.
SH: He's got a Ph.D. now.
GR : I heard he got his doctorate .
SH: Yeah . Sure did.
GR: Well one of my students got his doctorate too and is
teachin' at the university now. Kevin Bell . I taught him
bass. But Billy just keeps right on rollin'. For a while
he couldn ' t get any work and the next thing I know he was
disc jockyin' on a radio station . And since that time ,
he's done so much for jazz. Especially in Harlem and those
areas where the people couldn't afford to go out and hear
things. And one of my granddaughters is beginning on the
28th in Washington, D.C . as a television announcer. So I
told her, I said , "Well as soon as you get a chance, if you
can , get in touch with Billy Taylor and let him know that
RAMEY
GR: you're here---" 'Cause she's a jazz lover.
SH: You ever get back up to New York?
70
GR: Only goin' passin' through. I was there in June when
I carne back through .
SH: Do you visit some of the clubs?
GR: I go down to Eddie Condon's and maybe Jimmy Ryan's to
see Roy. And maybe some of those clubs up at West End or
some of those places up there on Columbia campus or like that.
But I got mugged before I left New York and I ---
SH: In June?
GR: No. No.
SH: Oh before you moved back to Austin.
GR: Yeah. And so I'm hesitant to go unless I got somebody
real worthy to travel with.
SH: It's not even a real good place to visit anymore.
GR: No. No. And actually, the reason I turned down so
many times--Michael's club was Jay's, and the fact that I
would have to walk the street with that bass fiddle. And I
know that I wouldn't be able to get away from a guy carrying
that big bass fiddle and he's gonna mug me. 'Cause when they
go after you, they go after you .
SH: Well, you know Jim, you know you've seen him pack his
horn away in a backpack so people won't see that he's carry­ing
something valuable.
GR: Yeah. Well, that 's good idea. But I cannot conceal a
bass fiddle. (laughter)
SH: You can't put that in a backpack.
RAMEY 71
GR: you can't.
SH: Hey, I sure appreciate your time this afternoon and your
sharing your career and your marvelous stories. And I'll be
down to hear you some more before you leave town. I hope
you'll get back down more often since you're not that far
away.
GR: Yeah. I might just run over now since I know
where I can go and hear some good sounds.
SH: Well, there's a lot of music around town. A few other
clubs pickin' up.
GR: Well I enjoyed it, anyway.
SH: OK. Yeah.
GR: And I 1m really enjoying it staying here with Jim.
SH: OK. Well thanks again, Gene.
GR: Thank you.
END OF TAPE