THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT:
INTERVIEW WITH: Bana Ramanath (Tape 1 of 1)
DATE: 8 November 2001
PLACE: Institute of Texan Cultures
INTERVIEWER: Sarah Massey
TAPE I, SIDE 1
M: ... and I’m with the Institute of Texan Cultures. And today is Thursday, November 8th, 2001. And I’m here with Bana, to interview her about some of her life experiences. Bana, would you tell us your last name and pronounce it correctly, since I know I’ll bumble it? And spell it for us.
R: Yes, good morning, Sarah, to you, too. My last name is Ramanath, just like it’s spelled.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And my first name is Bana.
M: Okay. And let’s spell it – R-a-m-a-
R: N-a-t-h.
M: Okay. T-h ?
R: Yes.
M: Okay. And where were you born, Bana?
R: I was born in India, south of India, a small town. It used to be a village, and that was my grandmother’s place. I was born in my grandmother’s house.
M: And what’s the name of the little village?Bana Ramanath 2
R: The name is Nagamangala - N-a-g-a-m-a-n-g-a-l-a.
M: And it’s in the south of India?
R: South of India. It’s an ancient town, because it has ancient Indian temples, beautiful temples that are more than a thousand years old. And it was...it used to be a farming place.
M: What do you mean by farming?
R: Well, mostly farmers.
M: Oh, farmers.
R: Yes.
M: Farmers.
R: Yes. And people – they were Hindus and Muslims, mostly. Conservative Hindus and Muslims lived in that place.
M: Uh-huh.
R: But everything...people lived in harmony and it was fun growing up.
M: Growing up.
R: Well, I didn’t grow up in that place. I was just born there. But we used to go visit my grandmother in the summertime.
M: Uh-huh. And so where did you live, primarily, in your childhood?
R: Bombay. We lived in – also lived in Rajastan and...
M: What was that one? Raja...
R: Rajastan. Bana Ramanath 3
M: Spell that.
R: R-a-j-a-s-t-a-n.
M: Okay. I want to ask you another question too, while we’re...your birthday and your youth. It’s my understanding that the various parts of India are ethnic – there is different ethnic groups or tribes.
R: Right.
M: Okay. And so what group were you? What group are you in?
R: Okay. Right. Well, see, every state in India is like a country, because people have different cultures. They speak different languages. There are about sixteen hundred dialects in India.
M: Um.
R: And people speak different languages; they wear different outfits. The food...basically the food is the same, however it takes up the regional flavor of the state. And there are various religions in India. There’s a lot of diversity in India. And, of course, there are different class systems. You know, people refer to the class system as a caste system. And that is a misinterpretation of the culture - cultural philosophy of India, because it used to be...it should be called a class system. What class system is – it categorizes people based on their profession. Okay, and which is based on their aptitude. Like if someone has an aptitude to become...to become a doctor, one should...oneBana Ramanath 4
R: should become...so that’s the best profession for him or her.
M: Uh-huh.
R: So people are categorized based on their profession. And I belong to a class called the Brahmins.
M: Okay.
R: The Brahmins are the educated class. Most of the Brahmins were priests and/or teachers.
M: Priests?
R: Yes. Priests. Priests and/or teachers. And my grandfather and his grandfather, my aunt, all of my father’s family and my mother’s family, they were that - they were priests, they were very educated people and they were priests. And scholars and teachers.
M: Okay. And they were priests within which culture? Which religion?
R: Hindu.
M: Hindu?
R: Hindu, yes.
M: Okay. And can you tell me a little bit more about the Hindu religion?
R: Well, Hindu religion, it never used to be called Hinduism or Hindu religion. It used to be called ...[inaudible] in Sanskrit, which means it’s just a way of life, you know. It was a way of life. It’s a very broad religion that accepts and tolerates hundreds of ways of Bana Ramanath 5
R: life. Because there are people...there are many people on this earth, and everybody has a different aptitude, a different state of mind, a different need, and they all live in different regions of the world. So, based on that, people have their own ways of life.
M: Uh-huh.
R: So the religion accepted that.
M: Um.
R: Accepted the fact that people are different and they have their own ways of doing things.
M: Uh-huh.
R: It’s okay.
M: Uh-huh.
R: But the main basic principles of Hinduism are reincarnation.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And the theory of karma, which is – I don’t even call it a religion – it is a...it’s science, you know; it’s the cause and effect.
M: Okay.
R: The theory of cause and effect. And the darma, which is...where one needs to do his or her duty.
M: Okay. That’s good.
R: And it’s an ancient, a very ancient religion. We don’t even know the origin of the religion.
M: Okay.Bana Ramanath 6
R: And now people are beginning to connect...the people – this group of people who started, who practiced this ancient religion to the people of Atlantis. I mean, it’s just a theory. They are exploring that part now.
M: They are exploring that.
R: Yes.
M: Okay. Because they don’t know the origin of Hinduism? Is that it?
R: Not really.
M: Okay.
R: They know that it’s...was a very ancient...it was practiced in a certain part of the world, but it seems to... it seems like it’s even more ancient than what we know.
M: Okay.
R: Because the scriptures, the religious scriptures, are called the...[sounds like Rada].
M: Uh-huh.
R: The Hinduism. They were an oral tradition. They were not written down in the ancient times. But now it’s being documented.
M: Uh-huh.
R: Because they are afraid they may lose it.
M: Lose it. Uh, do you go to – I mean like we go to church on Sunday - do you go to Temple, or...?
R: Well, I sometimes go to the Temple. However, if you are a strict Hindu like I am...Bana Ramanath 7
M: Uh-huh.
R: You don’t have to go to a Temple.
M: Uh-huh.
R: Because religion is very personal. Worship is personal, you know; we can worship at home. We can pray at home. I can go to a church and pray; I can go to a Mosque and pray.
M: Uh-huh.
R: It’s the same, it’s just a prayer, you know, as long as ...it’s a very liberated concept, I think.
M: I was going to say, it’s the way you live your life.
R: Right.
M: And therefore you can pray and be with your Supreme... Is there a Supreme Being?
R: There is a God in the Hindu’s belief. However a God has no shape, no form, no color; it is a concept, God is a concept. It’s the energy, it’s the cosmic energy.
M: Um.
R: If God could be called Krishna, Jesus...
M: ...[inaudible].
R: ...[inaudible] or anything.
M: Um. Uh-huh.
R: You know, it depends on your perception. How you perceive things. God can also be seen in the animals. God can also be seen in a wall. Like you can...this picture right in front of me, I can imagine the picture to be God Bana Ramanath 8
R: and I can pray and it is just as effective. So we really do not have to go to a Temple. Strictly speaking. I know people don’t like me saying this.
M: Uh-huh.
R: But in Hinduism you really do not have to go to a Temple. The Temples in the West here, and in the modern day, represents a community center. To me that’s what I think.
M: Okay.
R: And also it is a good way of raising children. And that’s how you teach children, creating an environment and teaching them how to have faith.
M: Uh-huh.
R: But in India the Temples are different. You know, there is no such thing as...you go to Temple on Sunday; you just walk in.
M: Whenever.
R: Yeah. As long as the Temple is open you just walk in and come back.
M: Now, you grew up in Bombay?
R: I...part of my life I grew up in Bombay. My father was in the government service. He was the Under Secretary, and so he traveled. So we lived...my father is from Bombay, his father is from Bombay. My grandfather was...he was a lawyer and he was also a Sanskrit scholar.
M: Um.Bana Ramanath 9
R: And he is...and he was also a professor in one of the Bombay colleges.
M: Um.
R: So they...my father grew up in Bombay, so we lived in Bombay for a few years and then we moved to Rajastan. It’s a beautiful state. And then we moved to a place called Bangalore in south India.
M: Spell that, please.
R: Okay. B-a-n-g-a-l-o-r-e. Bangalore is like the Silicon Valley of...
M: Oh, okay.
R: Of Asia.
M: Uh-huh.
R: It’s a beautiful place. It’s a much...it’s above sea level so it’s excellent weather, like San Francisco.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And it’s also called The Garden City of India. But now there’s too much pollution, too many people, because it was a beautiful city, everyone wanted to live in Bangalore. And now it’s become a very cosmopolitan city. And it is still beautiful, compared to the other places, but it has somewhat lost its purity and charm, I think.
M: Uh-huh. And what did you do there? What years were you there?
R: I was...[inaudible]. In fact we settled there.
M: Okay.Bana Ramanath 10
R: And my father was the Under Secretary for the state. And we settled there. I went to school. I went...I did my high school and my college years in Bangalore. Of course, when...I was very young when I finished my high school. I went to college when I was fifteen. It’s like a child going to, you know, I was not ready. So we...they screened all of us because we were underage to go to college.
M: Uh-huh.
R: So they would screen you, to test your maturity...
M: Uh-huh.
R: ...to see...to determine if you’re ready for college life. And then I went to...on one of the colleges that’s there, the Ivy League of that state.
M: And what did you study?
R: I majored in psychology, minored in sociology and economics. Yeah.
M: And how did you get into dance?
R: You know, my mother, she’s a singer, a beautiful...she used to be a beautiful singer. My grandmother was a great singer. And my mother’s father, he was a great violinist. He was a great engineer by profession, but he was also a violinist. So I can say that it’s in my blood. And also the environment.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And you know, we went through a bad phase in life, you know - my father lost all his money. I was still very Bana Ramanath 11
R: young. And they had no money to pay for tuition, for anything. We were seven children - five girls and two boys. So we didn’t...they didn’t pay for anything that I learned; it just happened to me. And you know, of course, I was in that environment, and I think it was a calling for me, I really think it was a calling. My older sister, she was learning dance, she was attending formal classical...
M: Uh-huh.
R: ...classes, dance classes. And I was...it was, it was just...I was driven towards the drama. Even in my elementary school I was very good with story telling and drama and people liked me. My teachers liked me and I really owe it to my teachers; they encouraged me. And I was very young when they put me on the national stage, so to speak.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And then my sister was in the dances - the dance classes - and a group of people, a student government body, they came looking for dancers. They came to our house because they had watched my sister perform, and everything. They came and they met me and they said, “Why don’t you also come?” They said, “Why don’t you come?” And I think that’s why I think it’s a calling.
M: Uh-huh.
R: It’s a destiny, you know. I said, fine, you know. And I used to do a lot of folk dances. I never had any Bana Ramanath 12
R: training, formal training, so to speak, but, you know, I just did it. And the teacher who used to – who was my sister’s teacher – he saw me on the stage and he was very impressed. And he said, “I’ll get you a scholarship; you come learn.” And he was the one who taught me, who gave me ...my parents didn’t even know I was attending dance classes.
M: Ah.
R: He was the one who initiated me into classical dance.
M: Now did this happen before college? After college?
R: Before – much before.
M: …before college? When you...
R: I was in school; I was still in school. And then he... I got a scholarship, he taught me and then, you know, the musicians every...every dance teacher has his own group of musicians. And all the musicians, they encouraged me. They thought I was so great and, you know, they told me, they used to say, “Oh, you’re made for dancing; this is what you should do.” And things like that.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And he encouraged me. And then I toured on a government scholarship. I toured all over India performing.
M: Uh-huh.
R: with this group. I think three or four times I, you know, traveled through India. And that’s how it started.
R: Sometimes I’ve given up dancing. Sometimes, you know, Bana Ramanath 13
R: when I was very young I just enjoyed it, I liked it.
M: Uh-huh.
R: But opportunities came to me, you know. God sent.
M: Uh-huh.
R: God sent opportunities, came to me.
M: Well, what did you do after college?
R: After college, I’ve...you know because I have always, when I was young, all of us we had a responsibility to support...help the family because we went through a very bad phase.
M: Uh-huh.
R: Even when I was in college I did...I used to work part time. I was fourteen years old. I used to...I was a teacher – English teacher in a Muslim school.
M: Okay.
R: There was a Muslim school, and it was called Cambridge Nursery and I was an English teacher and I was...at the time, although I enjoyed it, I was so ashamed of it, you know. I didn’t want my classmates to look at me, “Oh, there she’s going to work.” And I used to take the back streets and go. But now looking back, you know, I’m proud of it.
M: Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah.
R: And what did I do? And I was also an athlete, you know, that was a natural thing for me, it came...sports came naturally because my father was a soccer player.
M: Uh-huh.Bana Ramanath 14
R: In his student years he was the captain of the Bombay University Soccer Team.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And I think, you know, I was very good in sports. And I represented my state in athletics. I was a good athlete and I...
M: So what sports did you do?
R: I did running – long distance running.
M: Long distance running?
R: I did long distance running, I did hurdles, you know, everything.
M: Amazing.
R: Yeah.
M: How far did you run? I mean what was the...was the mileage?
R: Two miles.
M: Two miles.
R: Two miles, yeah, two miles. And I used to...every year I won the championship at our school – that was a piece of cake. I used to...there was...without any training I used to win the championship, and the PE teacher, he said, “You’re so good, why don’t you come, I’ll take you to the selection for the state coaching camps and...”
M: Yeah.
R: ...he took me there and I just joined that because they R: gave me a stipend, a small stipend, monthly stipend.Bana Ramanath 15
M: Yeah.
R: And that’s why I joined that one.
M: Yeah.
R: And then, one thing led to another and...
M: So you’ve been running and you’ve been an athlete and you’ve been dancing.
R: Dancing. And I also played a game called shuttle badminton.
M: Okay.
R: You know what that is? Yeah.
M: Yeah. Yeah.
R: Yeah. And then I took college. Soon after college I joined...I was a stewardess.
M: That’s what I remember you telling me.
R: Did I tell you that?
M: You just, in a little aside...
R: Okay.
M: ...had said that you were an airline stewardess.
R: See, I never told anybody. People in my own community, they don’t know these things about me. Yeah, I was a stewardess. That was the best part of my life, I must say.
M: Ah.
R: It’s different in India. It was a glamorous thing to do.
M: Yeah.
R: It was a glamorous job. They gave you all the Bana Ramanath 16
R: beautiful outfits to wear and lots of money, which is what I needed at the time.
M: Yeah, yeah.
R: So I got the job and I basically supported my family. And then I got married. And after I got married – I married a family – a very conservative family, and they didn’t approve of me dancing and being a stewardess. And you know, I was quite modern. We were raised...we were liberated, we were – I wouldn’t want to call modernized – I think we had...my parents were very liberal.
M: Uh-huh.
R: Very prog...we were very progressive; we were a liberated family. And you know, I wore all the Western clothes...
M: Uh-huh.
R: Even when I was growing up. And for my in-laws that was a no-no. In fact, they didn’t even approve of my husband marrying me.
M: Uh-huh. Yeah.
R: ...because of these things. So after I got married I came here and I gave up dancing because they had told me, “No, no more dancing and don’t tell anybody you were a stewardess.”
M: And so you came to the United States?
R: Yeah.
M: When you met...did you marry your husband in India?Bana Ramanath 17
R: In India.
M: In India. And was he employed in...?
R: He was doing his internship. You know, he had finished his medical school in India.
M: Uh-huh.
R: He’s also from South India. And he’s from the same community, the Brahmin community, that I come from.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And so he was doing his internship here. And I came to this country, and the first place I came to, was Detroit, Michigan.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And we lived in Detroit, Michigan. And so there was a ...I did perform a few times, you know, because people asked me to perform.
M: Uh-huh.
R: I also went to New York, the Stonybrook University, and performed.
M: Uh-huh.
R: But I never actively pursued that, because it was...
M: ...[inaudible].
R: It was not very conducive, it was not...there was no support or encouragement.
M: Yeah.
R: In fact, it was a shame for them, you know, for their daughter-in-law doing these things. And that’s how they Bana Ramanath 18
R: grew up, you know, they also grew up...
M: Um.
R: And, you know, people are different.
M: Did...was his family in India or is his family here?
R: Well, his parents were in India at the time. But he did have a brother and a sister here in this country.
M: Okay. So that impacted on your years in your early marriage then?
R: Well, not so much there, the sister who lived here, but the parents, you know, they come from a family…they’re very obedient to their parents’ respect – they never talk back to the parents.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And they don’t do anything that will upset the parents. And, you know, that’s…the family culture is so different.
M: Um.
R: Even I had a culture shock, you know.
M: Yeah.
R: So all family culture is different. Like if, for example, if we are very communicative, you know, like everything is in the open, you know. I’m not afraid to say something in front of my parents. If they did something wrong, I have the freedom to tell them.
M: Uh-huh.
R: Hey, that’s not right.
M: Uh-huh.Bana Ramanath 19
R: Don’t do that. It’s not good. But in their house they were brought up differently.
M: Uh-huh.
R: You’re not supposed to raise your voice in front of the parents.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And then...so the mother was the focal point in the family.
M: And it’s been difficult then? So, how did you get to San Antonio?
R: Well, my husband, he finished his internship. He did his residency at the Children’s Hospital, Detroit. And then, and he was looking out for fellowships and jobs, and so he had an offer from El Paso, Texas. So we moved to El Paso, Texas, and it was a peaceful time. But there’re no trees in that town. It was not so much fun. It was peaceful there. I didn’t do much. Of course, I had my kids there. And I went to school. I went to Community College. Even though I had a degree in psychology I wanted to do – learn something different. I wanted to do something. I’m restless, you know. That’s my nature; I have to do something.
M: I did the same thing.
R: Really.
M: I mean, did you do this when you were pregnant with your children?Bana Ramanath 20
R: I did, too, yes.
M: Yeah, I was in Montana with mine and I went to school and took Shakespeare and Russian history...
R: Yeah.
M: … and this kind of stuff when I was pregnant.
R: It was nice, you know, peaceful, but, well, you know, if you want to go for a picnic...one day we wanted to go for a picnic. We drove through the city and not a single tree. And so we came back in our backyard, you know.
M: And had a picnic.
R: ...so I know – I couldn’t wait to move out of that place. And San Antonio, I think my husband came here for a conference...
M: Uh-huh.
R: ...and something clicked; he met somebody or something. And then...so he had an offer. And the first time we drove down to San Antonio - we came on 1604, UTSA, and all those lush green trees. I was deprived of all that, you know.
For a year and a half I was so happy it was raining – it didn’t rain much in El Paso.
M: Uh-huh.
R: So that’s how I came to...
M: Yeah, how long have you been here in San Antonio?
R: About fifteen years.
M: Uh-huh.
R: Yeah. And I went to UTSA here, after I came to San Bana Ramanath 21
R: Antonio. And I graduated with a degree in computer information. Yep.
M: I can see now that you get bored easily - that you always have to be learning and doing something.
R: I have to do something. I think it’s the energy, you know, that you have – you want to do something.
M: The energy, yeah.
R: Right now I’m like that – I want to do something, you know. My interests are changing. I want to do something. Maybe I’ll go back to school.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And I want to do something, you know. I really want to do something. And now I feel that, like, San Antonio is not enough for me, you know?
M: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell me about forming your dance program.
R: When we moved into San Antonio...
M: Uh-huh.
R: They...well, we were quiet for a year or two. We were busy, you know – babies, two small babies – and my husband was busy establishing his practice. And...but somebody said, “Okay, why don’t...we didn’t know many Indians at all.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And I was still looking to continue my dance, and you know, learn – dance is a discipline, it’s an on-going process; learning is an on-going process.Bana Ramanath 22
M: Uh-huh.
R: And I wanted to join a group where I can get back into shape and practice and...
M: Uh-huh.
R: Learn more and all that stuff. Although my dad’s education in India is from one of the best schools, that’s also the Ivy League of dance.
M: Uh-huh.
R: You know, from Kalakshetera - my teachers are from Kalakshetera.
M: Spell that, please.
R: Kalakshetera – K-a-l-a-k-s-h-e-t-e-r-a, yes. That’s the best-known dance school in the world.
M: India.
R: In the world. In the world.
M: Ah.
R: And the founder of that was Rukmini Devi; she was married to this British scientist. And she was a Brahmin woman. In her time Brahmin’s families – they didn’t dance, you know; there was only a certain class of people who danced. Brahmin women were not supposed to go out in the public and doing this thing. But she broke all that and she went and learned – not only Indian dance but ballet – she started off with ballet.
M: Um. Um.
R: And then she founded a center. The best... Bana Ramanath 23
M: Could you spell her name, please? I want to be sure and get that right.
R: Okay. Rukmini Devi – R-u-k-m-i-n-i D-e-v (v like in Victor) i - that’s her name. But that’s where I had my training.
M: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
R: Very intensive classical training - like you go to college, you know, that’s a curriculum in itself.
M: Yes. Yes.
R: ...All the theory and everything. And that’s...I think that’s how it should be taught.
M: Uh-huh.
R: It’s like going to Julliard School of Dance.
M: Dance.
R: Anyway, and I came to where in San Antonio somebody said why don’t you go for this community function? And they also suggested a name, and they said they have a dance school here, why don’t you call and maybe...
M: Uh-huh.
R: ...you can continue. I called and left two or three messages and I...my call was not returned. And then I went and attended this function, the – it’s the festival – no, not the festival conducted by the Indian community, and I met somebody there. Somebody said, “Okay, why don’t you come and dance next year?” I said, “Fine.” And then the next year came and I went and performed. Okay. And then Bana Ramanath 24
R: everybody – um – who is this one? And then a few people came and said, “Gosh, why don’t you teach me? Why don’t you teach my daughter? Why don’t you do this?” And I was not sure.
M: Uh-huh.
R: I just...I had no intentions of starting this school or anything. Absolutely. I had no interest.
M: Oh. Uh-huh.
R: That was not my intention at all. And, I thought, let me share what I know. And I started in my kitchen.
M: Yeah.
R: This...one lady, she had a baby – a friend of mine; she had a small baby. She would bring her baby, you know, and we would dance in the kitchen. I would teach her. And the baby would start crying and I would hold the baby and, you know, dance...
M: Yeah, yeah.
R: ...with the baby. And then another lady came and another came, a young girl, a teenager, came and that’s how it started. And then I had to move my class from kitchen to my garage.
M: I love it.
R: Yeah. And several people came and, see, they didn’t know the significance of, or the importance, or the value of the kind of training I had in India. At the time they didn’t even know the Kalakshetera... Bana Ramanath 25
M: Um.
R: ...School, the style or anything. And that’s how it started, and the classes grew, many, many people came and...
M: What were you doing about the dissonance, now, with your husband’s family?
R: Oh, you know I was polite to them. I thought, let me...let me give them...let me give them some pleasure of, you know...
M: Of your dancing.
R: Well, no, no, no, no, I just wanted them to feel important. You know. And also I just got married; I didn’t want them to think, “Oh, she’s such a mean daughter-in-law.”
M: Yeah.
R: To begin with, they didn’t want somebody outgoing and somebody liberated.
M: Okay.
R: Like a person to go into their family...that happened and I wanted to de-fuse the situation and I didn’t want to upset anybody. And there came a time I had to put my foot down and said, “I don’t care what they think.”
M: Okay.
R: I’m going to do it and this is nothing bad, you know.
M: Yeah.
R: It’s a good thing. You know there are people – they want to learn this and they want to be good performers. And here I have the talent and I have the training and I’ve doneBana Ramanath 26
R: it all my life, how can I chain myself? You know, it’s not fair and I have to stand up for women. I have to, you know, also – and that’s what I did.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And I did go to school and a couple of my – one of my brothers-in-law, said, “Oh, why do you have to go to school? It’s inconvenient to your husband,” and this and that? I said, “Forget it.” And then I did go to school. And I’m glad I graduated now. And the same people who told me not to go, they’re doing exactly the same thing I did ten years ago.
M: Okay. Okay.
R: But anyway, I don’t regret going to school.
M: Yeah.
R: And I learned computer information systems. I had absolutely no idea what that was.
M: Yeah.
R: I didn’t know input, output, processing...
M: Yeah.
R: I had no idea.
M: Uh-huh.
R: But it was fun. You know, l learned that. And then at the same time I was going to school and teaching dance at the same time.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And it’s grown and we are the first non-profit Bana Ramanath 27
R: organization in San Antonio...
M: Uh-huh.
R: ...as far as the dance school goes.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And we are recognized by the city and the state; we get funding from the state and the city to do productions; and I’ve done several productions.
M: Uh-huh.
R: You know, people...more and more people keep coming.
M: Yeah.
R: And of course, you know, it did cause some problems with the community. They didn’t want me to start another organization and, you know - going mainstream, and we are mainstream, very mainstream.
M: Yeah.
R: I travel performing, and, you know, it’s just a normal process, you know. People do get...
M: Yeah, they get upset. And, then, are you saying that the Indian community in San Antonio is not happy with your work? Is that what it is?
R: Oh, no, no. Well, they are happy; that’s why they send their children to me.
M: Okay.
R: But at the time when I started...
M: Uh-huh.
R: Of course, there is competition. There was already Bana Ramanath 28
R: another dance group.
M: Um.
R: And I was told they were not happy and...
M: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
R: You know, it happens anywhere. It’s not just an Indian thing.
M: Uh-huh, yeah, yeah.
R: Anywhere, you know.
M: Anywhere there’s competition.
R: And I...it’s just a...and they wanted one Indian organization...
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1.
SIDE 2.
M: ...[inaudible] Association is different than your Association, isn’t it? In terms of...
R: Well, it used to be, they did everything. In the beginning, I mean, they wanted everyone to go through them -that’s simply because the same people who ran that organization in the beginning, some of them were the same people who ran some other – the dance and the cultural...
M: Okay. Oh, yeah.
R: You know, it’s inter-connected like that.
M: Yeah. I see.
R: So, but now it’s...the Association is not active, not very active...
M: Uh-huh.Bana Ramanath 29
R: And several other organizations that have come up – like the Hindu Temple of San Antonio and the Dance Schools and...
M: Uh-huh.
R: Within the Indian community there are other cultural organizations.
M: Uh-huh. Does the East Indian group do a festival of any kind here in San Antonio?
R: They used to do a Festival of India.
M: Okay.
R: And they also...we also did a Festival of Life. And of course, we have to...every year we go and do the Cultural Program.
M: Uh-huh.
R: If we don’t do it, who will do it?
M: Yeah.
R: I mean without us, you know...
M: Yeah.
R: Without the people who dance, sing and do other... organize other things, without these groups they can’t do all... Well, the organization, or the Institute, is... depends on...has to depend on their members.
M: Uh-huh.
R: Their membership.
M: Yeah.
R: They can’t go anywhere without their members.Bana Ramanath 30
M: Yeah.
R: It’s the members who...
M: ...Make the organization – I mean the activities.
R: Right. Right. Right.
M: Tell me about the event that I went to a year ago out at the school - where you had brought...it was some of your students, I think.
R: Uh-huh.
M: And there was also music and there were also some people there. And in terms of – from India - people from India that were important. Can you tell me anything more about that?
R: Okay. Which one was that? Help me here.
M: It was...I think it was Clark High School, and they were the founders of a new college in India, and it was a recital, I think. It was out on 1604, off of 1604. I can’t ...I’m sure it was last year – it was in the spring.
R: It was last spring?
M: I think last spring. And I was very impressed with... and it was primarily one girl.
R: Okay. That was a debut.
M: Yes. I think...
R: Was...did you see me anywhere?
M: Yes, you were on the stage.
R: ...On the stage. Okay. That was a debut. That was a debut of one of my students. See, what it is, is the Bana Ramanath 31
R: tradition of the debut is the people who learn this classical dance form called the...[Name? – Inaudible]. Okay, that’s what it’s called. After seven to ten years of training, the debut is the first solo public performance for the dancer. And the dancer dances in front of the teacher, the family and friends and other scholars and other teachers and the musicians. And that is how it is done traditionally. That is how it is done. When...in India it is, you know, a small scale thing, where the teacher would be...the student and her family would offer their respect and gratitude to the teacher for sharing the knowledge. And the teacher would bless the student, so to speak.
M: Uh-huh.
R: ...to go ahead and perform and, you know, and that would be her first public performance. That’s where the student is critically evaluated, and it would be decided by the other teachers, scholars, and everybody whether she is...I mean, you know, not so openly but in a subtle way the, you know, that debut determines a student’s...
M: Future.
R: ...future, as a professional dancer. But here in the West, especially in San Antonio, it has taken a different form. There’s a different manifestation of that. Now it’s become more of a public...it’s become more of a big gathering, more of a commercial thing. People spend a lot of money to get costumes and jewelry and feeding everybody –Bana Ramanath 32
R: like seven hundred to a thousand people – and all that. So it has taken a different form. That’s a debut. And we had the musicians from India. And that is the most important...
M: Yeah.
R: ... part, the dancer learning to dance with the musicians. You know, with the live musicians. And the focus should be the dancer and the musicians and the conductor who is also the teacher. And not so much the costumes and...
M: Uh-huh.
R: The jewelry and, you know... The students, they just wore two costumes during the entire performance.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And now students change costume for every dance. So you need to break away from that, and then you have to bring in a speaker and all that.
M: Does the family pay for the musicians - bringing musicians?
R: Yes. Yes. The family...[inaudible]. And if the family cannot afford to, then the organization tries to. Our organization tries to help out.
M: How are the musicians selected?
R: Well, it’s not like you go and audition and select the musician. This is a group... The group of musicians that I bring in, they’re from India. I have known them. They have all...they are from the same school that I come from; my Bana Ramanath 33
R: teacher – they are trained by my teachers.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And they know most of the songs and we have known each other for a long time.
M: So you have good rapport together. And you work well.
R: Yes. Well, no, we have known each other.
M: Yeah.
R: And so I bring them from India.
M: Uh-huh. Do you go back home to India often?
R: Yes, I do. Well, not every year, but I do go back to India. It’s still beautiful. This is my home.
M: Uh-huh.
R: I am an American citizen now, and this is home to me. But I still go back to India. There is something in India that you cannot find any other place. It’s...I think it’s some kind of...some kind of an energy; it’s some kind of a spiritual energy, you know. There’s so many people and there’s a lot of political unrest and all of that, but still you go back to India. There’s something that you find in India that you cannot find anywhere else. It’s...of course, it’s a shopper’s paradise. Who wouldn’t want to go to India? Beautiful things to buy, you know. There are beautiful things in India.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And the people are very smart, intelligent people. Education is given the highest priority in life. And it’s Bana Ramanath 34
R: very competitive.
M: How have you gone about raising your children?
R: They are American kids, because they live in a more different environment. However, the values system, you know, is different. There have been conflicts: “Oh, why should I do this? Why shouldn’t I do this.” And things like that. It’s not...well, we don’t live in India so they don’t have that environment, and you do need to create that environment if you want to grow up a certain way.
M: How about the values in the Hinduism? And that. Have you been able to continue with that with your children?
R: Yeah. See, I think the good values are universal. It’s not just Hinduism, you know, it’s not...it doesn’t stay within the traditional Hindu boundaries. It’s not...that’s not how it is, because it is a universal religion and the values are also very universal.
M: Uh-huh.
R: Like being honest, being clean and having faith.
M: Honor thy parents.
R: Right. Right. And not hurting anybody, and, you know, being respectful and things like that. Those values are the same. But here the peer pressure, there’s so much peer pressure – it’s not just for our family, our families, but although we feel the heat more.
M: Uh-huh.
R: It’s the peer pressure – like coming home on time late Bana Ramanath 35
R: at night, smoking and drinking and, you know, the dating was a big...
M: Uh-huh.
R: ...factor for all the Indian families, because in India there was nothing like dating. When you’re a student, you’re a student. You go to school, you do your duty, you know, as a student.
M: Uh-huh.
R: But here it’s not like that. You know, you date when you’re in middle school, when you’re in high school you date. And the concept of dating is different here. When... here when you say dating, that means everything...
M: Yeah.
R: ...I think and that’s what I understand. And so those things are different. It’s not...even in the West I think the times have changed. You know.
M: Uh-huh.
R: I’m sure it never used to be like that for all of you, right?
M: Yes, no, no. Things are much faster; kids grow up faster.
R: Yes.
M: They are exposed to things that are extremely dangerous and...
R: Exactly.
M: ...life threatening in ways that were never true for Bana Ramanath 36
M: us.
R: Exactly. Yeah. And they are not happy as a result, you know.
M: Yes.
R: They lose that innocence, you know; they grow up without the simple pleasures of life and...
M: Uh-huh.
R: They taste everything so fast and then there’s nothing more. Then they get disillusioned.
M: Uh-huh. That’s right.
R: Too materialistic, too much, you know, that’s...I think that’s what is happening.
M: Yes.
R: But the kids are brilliant. You know, some of the Indian kids - most of the Indian kids... Well, as you know the Indian community is one of the most affluent communities ...
M: Yeah.
R: Here. Very well educated.
M: Uh-huh.
R: That way, in one way, we are able to continue the value system of how education is so important...
M: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
R: ...to you. And the parents are always nagging the kids, you know, about doing the homework...
M: Study. Yeah, yeah.Bana Ramanath 37
R: And study and studying and setting higher expectations.
M: Uh-huh.
R: Going to professional schools. And as a result of that ...and, of course, the children also have the intelligence.
M: Uh-huh.
R: The Indian kids are doing very well.
M: I was going to say, it’s a very...I mean, from what I’m hearing you say, is that it’s a very educated and affluent group of people that came from India, that are here.
R: Uh...
M: Most of the Indians, I would say, that have immigrated here...
R: Uh-huh.
M: ...are very affluent and well-educated. Is that true?
R: Right. Most...a lot of people who...most of people who live in cities are well-educated. There are people who live in India now, today, they...
M: Yeah.
R: ...are much smarter and more educated than the Indians who live here.
M: Really?
R: Yes. Yes.
M: Okay.
R: And they are so smart, they are extremely talented and very intelligent and hard working. But they just chose to live in India, you know.Bana Ramanath 38
M: Uh-huh.
R: It’s just one of those things. It doesn’t...there is nothing to say that people...Indians who live in this country are smarter than the Indians who live in India.
M: No. Yeah. It’s...have you ever been in...have you ever served as an ambassador?
R: As a cultural ambassador. But I would love to be in that kind of a set-up. I would love to. That’s my...
M: Because it’s very clear to me that you’re a teacher; and that you are a teacher of India. I mean, you can teach the culture, you can teach the way of life, you can teach the religion.
R: Right.
M: You know about the dances and yet you’re very beautiful and you’re very congenial and...
R: Thank you, Sarah.
M: Well, I mean, you know, it’s just...you are an ambassador for your culture, and you explain it very, very well.
R: Thank you. Yes, well, you know I do go on the speaking circuit, so to speak.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And I do get invited to speak.
M: Give a lot of speeches.
R: And then conduct...like to be an MC for several occasions. And, see, I think the information that we have Bana Ramanath 39
R: is because of the good education system we had in India.
M: Yes. Yes.
R: You know, we had...we were encouraged – not just my generations. My mother’s generation; my grandmother’s generation; they knew all about...[inaudible] in the United States. And they were very good in world geography.
M: Uh-huh.
R: They were very good in world history. They knew when we all...most people who go to school, they know English.
M: Yeah.
R: I didn’t come here to learn – and learn English – I knew English in India.
M: Uh-huh.
R: ...because my father’s English is so good, he thinks our English is corrupted. He says, you don’t follow any grammar. And, of course, the British English in India...
M: Yeah.
R: And English is the official language in India. All business and education is conducted in English.
M: Okay.
R: All the bus signs and the road signs and everything in English.
M: It’s also clear that from your family, the women in your family were very liberated - that they’ve been, liberated in terms, within the context of their time.Bana Ramanath 40
R: Right. Right. Yeah, even in my family, you know, my sisters, we are all like that. And it was not...my mother didn’t have too much freedom.
M: Oh, she didn’t?
R: No. No. Because – of course she was busy raising –
having and raising seven children.
M: Yeah, uh-huh.
R: And she didn’t have so much freedom. But she still – she had that same spirit.
M: Yeah. How is she a singer? When you say she was a singer and a dancer, how did she do that? Was this at home? In the village?
R: Not the professional. No, she was not professional. She went to college. She did go to college and she would sing in small public functions. People would invite her to their houses to sing because she sang beautiful. And then in her college she would go in front of the classroom and she would sing and dance.
M: Uh-huh.
R: You know, things like that. But she was not encouraged by her in-laws to sing.
M: ...[inaudible].
R: Not because it was not a good thing to do for a woman, but they just didn’t care.
M: Yeah.
R: They just didn’t care.Bana Ramanath 41
M: Um. What do you see yourself doing next?
R: I would love to...I would like to continue multi-culturalism. That’s my goal, because there are a lot of universal concepts, there are a lot universal values.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And I would like to bring that together, and that will also bring people together. And like you mention, you stole the words, my part, and you wrecked my mind – I would love to be an ambassador. I would love to work in an international-multi-cultural set-up. And I think I’ll do that. And with a lot of new-age things coming up...
M: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
R: ...and the spiritual psychology – the East/West psychology.
M: Yeah.
R: All kinds of things. And that’s what I would love to do. And you have a great job. I would have loved to work for The Institute of Texan Cultures. See, this is the place
...
M: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I feel like I’ve died and gone to heaven, because this is so ideal for me.
R: Yes.
M: You know, in meeting different people and everything.
R: Yeah.
M: There was one final question and now I’ve lost what it was. Do you expect to continue dancing much longer?Bana Ramanath 42
R: Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. I’m dancing more now.
M: More.
R: And I’m performing more.
M: Oh, I know what I wanted to ask you. It was about the dance company. Is it a business? Are you running a business as an Indian woman, or as an American woman now? And is it profitable for you?
R: Well, it is a non-profit organization.
M: Uh-huh.
R: We have the 501C3...
M: Yeah. Exemption.
R: ...status, and it’s run by a board. I’m the founder.
M: Okay.
R: I founded this organization, but we do have a board that makes most of the decisions.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And it’s not – because it’s not-for-profit...
M: Uh-huh.
R: Of course, I do most of the work, you know, teaching and performing and all that.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And we do get paid. What we do is, we use the money to give it out to charitable organizations.
M: Uh-huh.
R: Like we do fund-raising and with whatever money we have...[inaudible] the funds are located for the continuing Bana Ramanath 43
R: education of the students who come to learn. Like we bring in a dancer or we bring in a cultural person to share their culture, their talent with us. And that’s also educational for the students.
M: Uh-huh.
R: So we set aside a certain amount of money for that. Okay, and out-reach performances. We go out and do several out-reach performances. And we also donate money to third-world countries, to the needy people. Not just the third-world countries. We have donated money to the Children’s Shelter of San Antonio, Battered Women’s Shelter, Any Baby Can Do, and several local organizations. The next project is we want to raise some funds for, of course, for the September 11th situation, and then for the Blind Orphans In India. There’s a Blind Orphanage in India, and these kids, they learn to sing and art work and all that. They are all poor people. And we want to raise money for that. And we are planning a performance, a big production. And we want to raise money and send it to them. And I want...see, our organization is called Natyanjali.
M: Uh-huh.
R: It’s not just about dancing, it’s not just about Indian classical dance. It is a cultural organization. It’s a multi-cultural organization. Because we do...I do have flamenco dancers and ballet dancers and yoga people – non-Indians who come and learn dance. And so it’s just not a Bana Ramanath 44
R: dance organization, you know – it’s a cultural organization.
M: Yeah.
R: And I also go to...we also have classes in Austin. And I teach in UT-Austin. I teach dance in UT-Austin.
M: Spell the name of your organization.
R: Okay. N-a-t-y-a-n-j-a-l-i. And it’s pronounced Natyanjali. That’s means Salutation Through Dance, Offering Through Dance. Through Dance, Drama and Music. Natya means performing arts. And we also do business as Natya – N-a-t-y-a – it’s easier for people to say that and to write – you know, Natya means performing arts.
M: Uh-huh. Um. Okay. Trying to think. Is there anything you’d like to say? Or anything that... I wanted to ask you about food. When you go...what do you cook at home?
R: Indian food.
M: Do you cook Indian food?
R: Indian food. And I’m a vegetarian; I’m a pure vegetarian.
M: Uh-huh.
R: So, cook vegetarian - Indian vegetarian food.
M: And where do you go in San Antonio when you go out to eat?
R: There are five Indian restaurants, okay? And well, of course, we go out and eat Italian food, Mexican food and allBana Ramanath 45
R: kinds of different foods.
M: Yeah. Do you think the Indian restaurants in San Antonio are any good?
R: They’re okay. They’re okay.
M: Okay.
R: ...but, of course, we all have our favorites and, you know. They’re okay.
M: And what do you cook at home that’s your favorite?
R: Gosh, all kind, you know – the Indian bread, like tortilla, and the curry, Indian rice and soup – there’s so much variety.
M: How...what’s different about Indian rice?
R: Well, you just – Indian rice is the same – you just cook rice, but what you eat it with is different, the curry.
M: Okay, okay. The curry.
R: The curry is different.
M: Okay.
R: There is so much variety in Indian food. Just like the country, you know. There’s so much diversity in food, too.
M: Uh-huh. So there are regional foods then, depending on which state.
R: There are regional foods. And even every region there are so many different types of foods, yeah. It’s not just one pasta and a salad, it’s not like that. There are so many different varieties of food.
M: Uh-huh. And so you’re still cooking as you cooked at Bana Ramanath 46
M: home?
R: Yeah. I do. I do. I cook Indian food, fresh Indian food at home.
M: And has your husband enjoyed being a doctor here in San Antonio?
R: Yes. He loves what he’s doing. And he loves San Antonio. I’m the one who wants to...
M: Getting antsy.
R: Yeah. I’m the one. I want to move to a place where – I love San Antonio, but the opportunities here, I feel, are maybe limited. Maybe I’m also coming – maybe because the community is so small here, you know. And, well, maybe there are opportunities – I just need to go and hunt for them. I don’t know.
M: I think you are at a time in your life where it’s a time to do some other little things. You know.
R: But, no, it goes – the seven year itch.
M: ...[inaudible].
R: It’s always that. I can never settle for less. I always have to go and keep doing things - bigger and better things.
M: Bana, it was great talking to you.
R: Thank you, Sarah.
M: Thank you for coming.
R: Yeah. But I want to ask you, what is your background?
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2.Bana Ramanath 47