INSTITUTE OF' TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: MRS. NELLIE MABEL RICHTER
INTERVIEWER: GILBERT R. CRUZ, HISTORIAN , S.A. MISSIONS
NATIONAL HISTORICAL PARK
DATE: May 11, 1983
PLACE: Mrs. Richter 's horne, Graf Road, Berg's Mill,
Texas
GC: Mrs. Richter , you have kindly allowed us to take a small
bit of your time from your dai J.y activities arounc horne and
around your f a vorite church, San Juan Cap istrano, i n o r der to
have this interview with us, and allow us to share sene o f
your early l ife e xperiences and s ome o f your inte r e sts--some
of t he a c t i vL t ies tha t ::~ ou have p artic ipated in over ·th E:~ y ea J~ s
at San Juan C~pis tr a n o .
We would like to b egin by asking you to give us some
comments about your early life. That is, your place of birth,
something about your parents, your early schooling, and how
you final l y ended up bei ng so much a part of the history and
the background and the scenario of Mission San Juan Capistrano.
Let u s b egin by p e rhaps you tell us something about your
early life. What do you remember about y ourse lf as a little
girl, Mrs . Nellie ?
NR: I was born in San Luis Potos i on the 26th of January, 1900 .
GC: This is San Luis Potosi, Mexico?
NR: Yes , my father was a manager of the Casa Quicksilve r
RICHTER 2
NR: Mines. And he was married to my mother in New York.
She came to l ive at the mine with him , where mys e l f and my
2 sisters were born.
GC: What was your mother's full maiden name?
NR : Mary Ann Nolan.
GC: And he went to New York, married her there, and brought
her to San Luis Potosi?
NR: Yes.
GC : How long were you in San Luis?
NR: Well, until about 1904, when the mine my father was
managing was sold to another company. So we l eft on a trip
to Scotland to see my father 's parents .
GC : So his parents were originally from Scotland?
NR : Yes.
GC : How long were you in Scotland?
NR: About a year because my mother couldn 't stand the cli­mate.
She said it was too cold .
GC: So what made you dec ide to move to Texas? Your parents?
I imagine you were still a little gir l .
NR: My parents stayed in Mexico. They returned to Mexico.
And there he had d ifferent interests. Then when I grew up ,
I went to school a t the Academy of t he Sacred Heart.
GC: In San Luis?
NR: First in San Luis and then in Mexico City .
GC: What was it called, La Academia del Sagrado Corazon?
NR : La Academia del Sagrado Corazon. So that is where I got
most of my education.
RICHTER 3
GC: What made you decide to c ome to Texas , Miss Nellie?
NR : My husband ' s parents lived here . Mr . Richter , my father­in-
law, he was having heart spe l ls and high blood pres s ure
so that ' s what real ly made him leave his job there and come
live here.
GC : He was l i v i ng in what p art of the country?
NR : Mexico City. He was superintendent of the Mexico Sewer
Pipe Work s , which was a subsidiary of the W. s . Dickey Com-pany
of Kansas City , Missouri .
Mexicana . )
(Today i t is La Compania
GC : Was he a mid-westerner?
NR: No, he was from a l ittl e town called Oakdale . I think
it ' s in---
GC: East Texas , sort of like , eh?
Mrs . Richter , it ' s been very i nteresting knowing some ­thing
about your parents a nd something about the parents of
your husband. As I recall now , your father worked for the
Guadalcazar Quicksilver Mining Company Limited in San Luis
Potos i . I understand i t was an English company with an
English investment in Mexico there in San Luis Potosi . That ' s
very interesting .
Now, let ' s shift our attention in the direction of
Texas , South Texas, San Antonio, particularly . Your husband
and your marriage , a nd your children here in and around San
Juan Capistrano. What was your husband's full name?
NR : J ames Ernest.
GC: James Ernest Richter. When did you marry , Miss Nellie,
RICHTER
GC: and where did this take place?
NR: Mexico City.
GC : So you went back to Mexico City and got married?
4
NR: I was living down there and I used to work at the city
office of the sewer pipe company . And he was superintendent
of the works out in the outskirts of Mexico City .
GC : How long did you know each other in Mexico City before
you and Mr . . Richter decided to marry?
NR : Well , I knew him for about 2 years , you know , coming in
and going out. And then, all of a sudden, it happened.
GC: That 's very interesting. When did you decide to come to
Texas, you and your husband, and to take permanent residence
here?
NR: That was in 1928 , when his father was real sick .
GC: What part of Texas did you move to at first?
NR: Would you believe Elmendorf?
GC : The little city of Elmendorf! Just south of San Antonio .
NR: My f ather-in-law had a ranch there. Then we stayed
therefor awhile, while we looked around and then my husband
wanted to move so we could be by ourselves . So then he asked
Senor Martinez that used to have a garage a t t he corner--­Anyway
, he said, "My father-in-law just moved out of the
house so you can rent that house," which we did. And after
living h ere several years, the original owner di ed and his
son was our new landlord . And the n after s everal years, we
finally bought the place .
GC: So you lived in Elmendorf , around the Elmendor f area
RICHTER
GC: for about a--­NR:
month.
5
GC : About a month. And from there you moved closer to San
Juan Capistrano?
NR: Yes , we did, not on that account, but the house just
happened to be empty so we moved in.
GC: This is your house here on Graf Road. How many years
have you been living here on Graf Road now, next to the
Mission?
NR: Well, let's see, we come in ' 28; that woul d be 55 years.
GC : Were most of your children born here?
NR: No, only one. The other 2 were born in Mexico City.
GC: You have 3 children .
NR: Three girls, yes .
GC: What are their names?
NR: The oldest one is the same as mine, Nellie Mabel Cude,
because she married one of the Cudes . Grace, the second one,
she married a man from Milwaukee and her name is Grace
Dennison. She lives in Waukesha, Wisconsin. And then the
youngest one , Ernestine , the one that was born here, she
married a doctor . They used to live in Corpus but now she
lives here , The north end of town.
GC : I'm sure you're very proud of your children, Mrs . Richter.
You and your husband spent quite a bit of time here close to
San Juan Capistrano. What are some of the first impressions
that you got of San Juan Capistrano when you first arrived
here back in 1928 or thereabouts?
RICHTER 6
NR: Well, I tell you one of the first impress i ons I got was
that it was too bad it should be so neglected .
GC : What were some of the things that you saw about the
Mission that made you feel that way? Do you remember how
the walls might have looked like, the church , or some of the
other structures. The gates? What were some of the thi ngs
that you recall quite vividly that were deteriorating that
saddened you?
NR : Well, the walls were higher and my husband used to
always say if they'd just fix the top of the walls and put
a roof on it, it would be a good place to live for people.
If it were fixed up. But another thing happened . People
would come from town, pick up the rocks, and take them home
for gardens or for this or for that .
GC : So over the years you saw many, many people cart away
many of the rocks that made up the walls? Is that it?
NR: I suppose they picked up the loose rocks . I don't know
that. According to some of the old-timers, the rocks were
taken from there to build water wells .
GC : Line the water wells .
NR: That was before my time.
GC : Do you remember the church like this?
NR: Like it is today?
GC: Yes. Do you remember it having a flat roof or a--­NR:
No, I think it had a flat roof .
GC: You remember it always having a flat r oof.
NR: Uh huh.
RICHTER
GC:
NR:
GC:
NR:
Do you remember it not h aving a roof at al l ?
No, that was before my time.
Do you ever remember i t having a thatched roof?
No.
7
GC: What was the condition of the land around here at that
time?
NR:
1886.
When did the railroad arrive? Do you remember?
This railroad? It is said that it would go through in
But I do remember, after we come here, there used to
be a little station, a little depot, right there. And I
remember---
GC: How f ar from your home?
NR: Right across the ditch.
GC : Right across the tracks. Right here on Graf Road.
NR : Yes. Right there at the corner.
GC: And you say that the train would stop and l eave and take
on passengers?
NR : There was a little train that come through everyday
around one sometime. And they'd take on passengers, people
that wanted to go to Elmendorf, Saspamco or down the line.
GC: Were there quite a f ew people living in this area at
this time? In the 1920's, 1930's?
NR: Yes. All that over there were bui l dings, people living
in those homes and the same over that way. But some of them
moved away and then when the park was started, they started
buying out old homes and that .
GC: Who were some of the very first priests that you r emember
t aking care of this place when you arrived?
RICHTER
NR: The 'Redemptorists Fathers.
GC : The Redemptorists were already here in 1928.
NR: In 1928, yes.
GC: How long were they here?
8
NR: They were here until, I guess, the '40's. No, 50 's.
GC: Were there quite a few people here that attended the
different services that were held here? Di d they have quite
a few Masses? Did they baptize their children here? Did
they have marriage ceremonies?
NR: Yes .
GC: What can you tell me about those? What can you tell me
about some of the ceremonies they had, the marriages . Were
they mostly rural, country marriages or did this place still
have sort of a community character about it?
NR: A community character.
GC: People pretty well knew each other here .
NR : Oh yes. And a lot of them were related.
GC: In 1928 , when you came, was there a fairly large Mexican­American
community here?
NR: Yes . Mostly farm workers I should say. They used to
have their little farms all down the line.
GC: And you say these were mostly Mexican-American farmers?
NR: I would say mostly Mexican-American farmers, but there
were some American people, German people, too.
GC: They made up a good part of the Catholic community of
San J uan Capistrano.
NR: Yes.
RICHTER 9
GC : We notice that around the 1800 ' s --surely t hi s was before
your t ime- -some of the additional buildings there seem to
have a sort of a 1800-type of architec tural structure to
t hem . And i t' s been said that this is attributed more to the
German-American influence that was in t his area . What can
you tell me about that? Were there very many German- American
Catholics around this area?
NR : No , not too many . Some I t alians . Of course they were
Catholics.
GC: There were some Italians and Mexican- Americans . I
understand that the little house that is located along the
east wall was at one t i me used as a school . Was that before
your time, Mrs. Richter?
NR: Possibly, because I never knew it as a school . When we
come here, peopl e were living in it .
GC: Were these individual families using it as a home?
NR: Yes.
GC: Were there other people living within the Mission walls?
NR: No. That ' s about the only one when we come here, be­cause
all the rest--the roofs were off; t he walls, shall I
say , deteriorated.
GC: How about the wooded areas around the missions? Were
there more wooded areas around here t han there are now?
NR: Well, I tell you. The Mission yard, it had trees same
as this place. Trees planted every so many f eet apart. So
whenever they had a fiesta down there, there was no talk of
renting t ents or the like . They used the shade of the t rees
RICHTER 10
NR: for their cover.
GC: So it was kind of a wooded area within the plaza itself.
NR : Within the plaza itself.
GC : And this was in the 1920's and ' 30's, huh?
NR : Yes .
GC : We 've heard it said that at one time, there was a little
acequia, irrigation canal, going to the northern sectors of
the plaza. Do you recal l anything on there possibly being a
little ca.nal running through the plaza?
NR: I don't know about running through the plaza itself .
But there was one, as you say, back of the Mission .
GC : The one that we cleaned out not too long ago, that the
National Park Service cleaned out, that runs more on the east
side of the wall, east wall . Back in the ' 20 ' s and the ' 30 ' s
do you recall it actually carried water or do you remember
any of the acequias carried water?
NR: Yes. We had one right here.
GC: Yes, this is the one. It runs north of San Juan
Capistrano wall then it heads east and then runs along the
north side of the wall, then heads south and runs east of the
wall. Now , you say t hat that one at one time carried water?
NR : Yes.
GC : You remember it carrying water?
NR: Yes.
GC: And the water was used for?
NR : Irrigation. Each l ittle farm, shall I say, had certain
days allotted that they coul d use the water for their section.
RICHTER 11
GC: Did your husband ever do any kind of farming himself?
NR : No. Aft er we come here, t he Depression hit s o he didn ' t
know what to do and he said , "Wel l , I 'm going to make pot­tery,
" because his father used t o own the Star Pottery Factory
in Elmendorf . So then he put up a shop right here in this
r oom. He had these two wheels , an e l ect ric power wheel there
and a kick wheel over here.
So he started. We didn't get r i ch but we made enough
to send the children to St. Theresa ' s Academy and keep our­selves
going .
GC: You sent all t hree of your children to St. Theresa ' s.
It ' s no t very far from here , but how did you get t hem to St .
Theresa ' s and back?
NR: My husband used to take them.
GC: Did you have a car at that time?
NR: Yes.
GC: He used to drive them there and back everyday .
NR: Yes .
GC : Do you remember some of the names of some of the families
that l ived around here when you first arrived that were quite
active in San Juan Capistrano Mission?
NR: Well, of course, there were the Daura family , and also
the Louis Kunz family.
GC: Tell us something about this family.
NR: I don't know too much about them. They come here--well ,
they landed in Rockport. And after awhile they come over
here and settled here.
GC: Did they have quite a f ew children?
RICHTER 12
NR: Let ' s see. Well, they had one boy and then Mrs. Josephine
Kunz, she married Alfred Kunz. She had five children, 2 boys
and 3 girls. And then one of the brothers, Joe Daura, he had
one boy. And I think that's all the children that he had.
GC : Do you remember if they were baptized at San Juan Capis­trano?
NR : That I couldn't tell you . Either Espada or San Juan.
GC: Do you believe that a lot of did baptize their
children or did they go to some other church to baptize, like
maybe the Cathedral, San Fernando Cathedral?
NR: Most of them I imagine, were baptized here . Some d i d go
to other churches for reasons of their own.
GC: What are some of the activities that you best remember
around San Juan Capistrano?
NR: Some of the activities?
GC: That you seemed to like and enjoy. There must have been
something that happened at San Juan Capistrano that has caused
you to be so loyal to the Mission.
NR : Well, I don't know. I feel sorry for the Mission because
it was so neglected as I told you before. Sometimes people
j ust wouldn't--you know1 you ' d go to Mass there and the dust
was all over the place. Nobody bothered to sweep it. So then
I told my husband, "Well. I'm going to sweep the Mission, make
it look a little cleaner." So we used to go down every week
and clean it up a little bit. And little by little , as time
went on , then they formed The Children of Mary, and The Children
of Mary used to take tur ns , go every Saturday.
RICHTER
GC: This is the Societ y of the Chi l dren of Mary .
NR: Yes.
GC : I t was kind of a Catholic women 's organization?
NR: For young peop l e.
13
GC: For young l adi es. Young Catholic ladies . And one of
t he dut ies that you all assumed was the care o f the inside of
t he church .
NR : And then of course, as things do happen , they got marri ed ,
moved away a nd then at that time the old ladies got together
and formed the Perpetual Help Society .
GC: Our Lady of Perpetual Help Societ y. This was still at
the t ime of the Redemptor ' s Fathers . Who were some of t he
Redempt or 's f athers that were quite acti ve back in those
days? Do you still remember the names of some of those
fathers?
NR: Oh yes , I do .
GC: They c ame from St. Gerard's parish over there---
NR: No , they came from Perpetual Help.
GC: Oh, they came from Perpetual Help? Which was not. t oo far
from St. Gerard's.
NR: That ' s r ight.
GC: Both of those churches were run by the Redemptor ' s fathers.
And San Juan Capis t rano was one of their miss i ons .
Can you tell me something about t he fathers that carne
through and worked with you?
NR: Well, the first one was Father Eugene Wehner (arrived in
1928 for 4 or 5 years) .
RICHTER 14
GC: Father Eugene Wehner who eventually became the pastor of
Our Lady of Perpetual Church. And who else?
NR: There was Father Frederick Mann . He did a lot, you
know.
GC : You don't remember his first name?
NR: Frederick.
GC: Father Frederick Mann . And who else do you recall?
NR: Then there was Father Marshall German.
GC : Father German. What was Father German ' s first name?
NR : Marshall.
GC: Father Marshall German.
NR: And then Father Raymond Nowack. (9 years)
GC : Father Raymond Nowack. He was one of the last ones,
wasn ' t he?
years)
NR : Yes.
(1953, l eft) There was Fr. Henry Schultz. (3
GC: He was the one that was the less tall than others,
wasn't he?
NR: Yes. (laughter)
GC: But he was a delightful man, wasn't h e ?
NR: He was . We still keep in touch.
GC: Is he back in St. Louis?
NR: No, he's in Corpus.
GC: He's working at the Redemptor's parish in Corpus Christi.
NR: Yes.
GC: But the Redemptor's fathers would come just on the week­ends
to say Mass . They didn't really stay here , did they?
RICHTER 15
NR: They used to stay down at Espada , when they did stay
here . They had a place down there because in those days it
was Espada and San Juan were t he ones Spanish . And then
another Espada and Cabrini and San Juan and---
GC : They had a lot of responsibility , didn' t they?
NR: Oh yes .
GC: When do you feel that the people here at San Juan
Cap istrano began to fee l a c ertain c ommuni ty life for t he
historic--kind of doing things together? You ' ve probably
have seen them really build a communit y spirit now in 1983 .
But it wasn ' t a l ways like this , was it?
NR: No .
GC: Can you tel l me something about back in the days when
things were not quite as organ ized as they are now? And how
you gradually began to see a spirit of community?
NR : Well, those things happen little by little. First , a
littl e bit and then another little bit and then another
little bit.
GC : Do you remember some of the families, some o f the other
familie s, ladies and their husbands, children, who got to­gether
and worke d alongside with you in caring for t h e
mission? Are the re a few name s that stand out in your mind?
NR: Yes, I suppose so. I remember Mrs. Alaniz , whose family
s t i ll lives across there.
GC: What was h e r full name?
NR : Luisa .
GC: Mrs. Luisa Al aniz. What was her hus band's name ?
RICHTER
NR: Mateo.
GC: Mateo Alaniz. How many children did they have?
NR: About six or seven.
16
GC: ~ou would say about six or seven. Do y ou think they
were baptized here at San Juan Capistrano? You really don 't
know?
NR: No. Not Mrs. Alan iz ' children. Her grandchildren, yes.
GC: What other family do you remember working closely with
back in the days when things were hard at San Juan Capistrano?
NR: I remember the Dauras that I mentioned. They were
married but they still had an interest in the place.
GC: How many children did the Dauras have?
NR : Let 's see. I should say about eight between the sisters.
GC: Who were some of the other families that you worked
with?
NR: The Guerras.
GC: The Guerras. What were their first names?
NR: I don't know Mr . Guerra's, the old man , but I know the
young one was Emilio. He still has that little store down
there.
GC: Emilio Guerra?
NR: Emilio Guerra.
GC: What was his brother's name?
NR: I couldn't tell you.
GC: His parents were here in the '20' s when you arrived, is
that it?
NR: Yes. And then the Sanchez. But they didn 't take too
RICHTER
NR : much int erest.
GC: What was his name?
NR: Senor Sanchez? We 1 ll say Manuel.
GC: Manuel. And his wife's name?
NR: I don't know.
GC : But you do remember the family living near by .
17
NR: My husband used to know them when they lived in Elme n­dorf.
GC : What are some of the things that you did for the parish
back in those days? I imagine you did all kinds of things.
I know that you swept the church and--how about during the
time of the fiestas? What sort of fiestas did you have? You
said you used to tie, what? You had shady trees. Didn't
have to put no tents up, huh?
NR: That's right.
GC: Did you get a nice crowd of people here for your fies tas?
NR: Oh y es, pretty fair.
GC: What are some of the activities that took place ?
NR : More or less about the same as today.
GC: Little stands that sold food?
NR: Bingo .
GC: Bingo. The Catholic game, Bingo! What e lse? Did they
have other activities , booths that they used to---
NR: Yes . There was knocking down milk bottles. I guess
that ' s what you still call it.
GC : Knocking milk bottles with balls, or today , baseballs?
NR: Uh huh. And then raffles, of course . Sometimes litt le
RICHTER
NR: raffles.
GC : You say you had pretty-- f airly large c r owds?
NR: Oh yes.
GC: Where did these people come from, Mrs . Richter?
NR: Well, I tell you what. The Redemptorist priests in
town had their other churches up there in town and we had
visitors from other parishes.
18
GC: So the Redemptors fathers used to encourage the people
from the other churches to try to attend your bazaar here?
NR: Yeah .
GC: Back in those days , t here wasn't really too much to do.
There was no television, there wasn't all sorts of t h ings
that attract people, distract people, so that they enjoyed
being together .
NR: Oh yes.
GC: So people had a good time together at the missions .
NR: Yes .
GC: When did the Redemptorists fathers l eave?
NR: It was in the 'SO's. I should say about '55, if I
remember right.
GC: So the Redemptorist fathers were here until the 1950's.
Who replaced them? Do you recall?
NR: The priests from the archdiocese.
GC: The diocesan priests. Do you remember one of the dio­cesan
priests that used to work around here?
NR: Oh yes. The first one was Father Ed Barch.
GC: Father Ed Barch . Now he used to live at Espada Mission~
RICHTER
GC : did he not?
NR: Yes , he used to stay there.
GC; He used to take care o f San Juan Capistrano as well .
And Father Ed Barch was fol l owed by who?
19
NR: There was another one, Father Clarence Leopold. He
didn 't stay too long . His health deteriorated . I think of
Father Collins, Monsignor Collins .
GC : What was his first name? Tom. Father Thomas Collins
worked with you here for awhile.
NR: Father Pugh .
GC: Father Charles Pugh. You remember them very well, don ' t
you , Mrs. Richter.
NR: Father Lissy .
GC: Father Tom Lissy was with you. He was followed by?
NR: There was one---
GC: Was Father Sherrill Smith here?
NR : He lived at Espada. But he was a diocesan.
GC : Fathe r Sher rill Smith?
NR: Sherril l Smith , that ' s right. I had forgotten about him.
GC : He was another diocesan priest.
NR : Yes.
GC: There was another very interesting young Irish priest
that---
NR: Oh , that was Fathe r--I can 't remember his name.
GC : Father John Murtagh I think it was.
NR: No , that wasn't his name .
that i t is Fr. John Murtaugh)
(Later research indicated
RICHTER 20
GC: I understand he ran an ambulance or something here for
awhile.
NR : Yes , he used to have a little ambulance, s hal l we say,
which was a converted truck. And anybody that needed to go
to the hospital, he'd take them.
GC : Take people to the hOpital. Who followed the Redemp­torist
fathers? Didn't the Franciscans take over? Do you
remember what year they took over?
NR: I was trying to r emember that the other day.
remember the date .
I don't
GC : Let's move back to the landscape of the San Juan Capis-trano
Mission. The wooded area to the west of the Mission,
was that always a wooded area?
NR: More or less, yes .
GC : Do you imagine that the p l aza within t he Mission itself-­did
it look something l ike the wooded area west of the Mis ­sion?
NR : No. It l ooked a little less wild, shall I say.
GC: But i t did have big trees like that?
NR: Hackberrys, mostly. And you know hackberrys just last
so long and they~-~
GC: They dry and go away .
Tell me something about the alamo tree that's still
hanging on. That must have been a beautiful tree many years
ago .
NR: Yes. I t makes me sad to see it just going, goi ng. One
day it will be no more. There used to be another two alamos
RICHTER 21
NR: there that went on this side of the grounds . You know
where the superintendent's house is. A little out f rom that .
There were two smaller ones. I don' t know if they were cut
down or they fell down because when the WPA come out and dug
up all over the p l ace , a lot of those trees went.
GC: When the WPA moved into this area, did they do a lot to
change the look o f San Juan Capistrano?
NR: Not the building proper.
GC: What sort of work qo you remember them doing? When you
used to go and see them working there , what do you remember
especially their doing i n and around the Mission?
NR: Well, they found some foundations outside of the plaza.
And then they found some buried Indians, I suppose. The r e
was a lot of excavat ion going on . Yes, I remember little
skulls about that size , and beads . And they put them all in
one of the rooms on that side of the Mission. They stayed
there for a long time and finally I think t hey reburied t hem.
GC: Was there ever a Mission cemetery near by other than the
~
one here near your home?
NR: Not that I know of. There might have b een , but I don ' t
know.
GC: Were there many horses and horse carriages when you f i r st
arrived in this area ? Or was the automobile pretty well mov-ing
in by that time?
NR : The automobi l e was pretty---
GC: There wasn 't too much use of the horse.
NR: Once in awhile you'd see a little horse and carriage go
RICHTER
NR: by .
GC: Who were the people that would get off and on at the
San J uan--train station, let us call it?
22
NR: People that were going to visit their relatives. That
was it.
GC: Did they stop the train to go to San Antonio?
NR: They probably did. But we used to have a public service
bus that used to come to the wes t gate of Brooks Field. And
people wanted to go to town, they used to go and take the
bus there . When San Antonio was smaller, everything was con­gregated
there.
GC: What do you remember about the old river channel? It
was still functioning when you carne, was it not?
NR : Yes.
GC: Did the people enjoy having the river over there? Was
there any kind of concern or thinking on the part of you,
your husband, the people around here, when it was decided
that the river, the course of the river was going to be
changed?
NR: My opinion, the course of the river was changed after we
had a --that was '47.
GC: 19 4 7.
NR: Yes.
GC: And the river flooded quite seriously down here .
NR : Yes. It didn't get here but all t hat--because instead
of having trees over there it was corn fields and the like.
GC: It was all farm lands, eh?
RICHTER 23
NR: It was a l l covered with water. We would watch the river
flow and the children would take this and take that . And
then it hit the bridge .
went the bridge.
Somet hing hit the bridge and down
GC : You mean some large piece of debris or something struck
the bridge?
NR: Probab l y . Struck the old bridge and knocked it down.
GC: So I guess the people around, in that sense, were kind
of glad that the change in the rive r took p lace?
NR : Possibly.
GC: Was the Mission itself ever endangered by the flood?
Did the water ever get into the p laza itself? Do you re­member?
NR: Not to my knowledge. Maybe back of it but not inside
it.
GC : So it never really got inside the Mi ssion itself?
NR: No.
GC: Do you remember any other floods? Other than the one
in 194 7?
NR: Well, they had one when we come here. I don't remember
what year it was. But it wasn ' t a big flood. The river just
rose up s o high and then went down. And that was it. But
those houses along the b ridge--there were homes there--they
really got flooded.
GC: Was there anybody hurt?
NR: No, not that I know of. Not that I remember, anyway.
GC : As we look out your f ront door here you 're facing west;
the sun sets over there. You say if you face west and look
RICHTER 24
GC: out your front door, all this land here in front of us
was farm land. On both sides of the railroad tracks, you
might say , eh?
NR: Yes. And then under the bridge over there , in between
the o l d highway and the new highway, they used to grow corn
there, too.
GC: And the waters from the irrigation canal, or the acequia,
was used to irrigate thos e , so there was a l ways plenty of
food around here wasn 't there?
NR: Vegetables and things like that, yes.
GC: Do you remember who were the owners of the land that
was being farmed r ight here near your home?
NR: I remember some of the owners--somebody owning it, but
I don 't remember his name. I don 't remember that.
GC: Can you tell me some of the things about the Mission
that are quite close to you that you would l i ke me and others
to know about the Mission? Something that's kind of close
to your heart, and something you would want me and others to
know many years hence?
NR: Well, the only thing I wish, I wish i t would be well
taken care of because--not only this but all of the missions.
People say they are the jewels of this part of the country.
I hope that the generations that come will see them that way.
GC: As you look back over the years, and see where we are
now with the missions, are they now in better condition than
when you arrived? Are there some things that we have done
rightly, or are there some things that, according to your
RICHTER
GC : way of thinking, we could have done better over the
years?
25
NR: No , I don't think so .because to my point of view they
were going downhill and downhill , but now with somebody to
really show an interest in them, they are beginning to come
up again . Of course, there has to be a lot of repairs, a
lot of reconstruction.
END OF TAPE I, Side 1, 45 minutes
Tape I , Side 2
GC: Mrs . Richter , I understand among the different church
religious activities, were those that were associated with
the Feast of Christmas, the Nativity . Can you recall some
of the activities of that period of Christmas that you think
you woul d l ike for us to know?
NR: I think the most notable was the midnight Mass. Then
people woul d come f rom all over the place .
GC: Di d you s i ng in the choir?
NR: No. My daughters did but not me.
GC: Did you all have a beautiful choir?
NR: We had a very good choir, once. Very good .
GC: What were some of the songs that you would sing?
NR: Well , the common, ordinary, religious songs.
GC: Like the Latin Mass?
NR: Uh huh.
GC : The Sanctus, the Gloria, and the Kyrie Eleison (Lord
Have Mercy . )
NR: Yeah.
RICHTER
GC: How about some of the hymns that were sung in modern
languages? Were some of them--Christmas songs, were they
sung in English?
NR: Oh yes, English.
GC: How about Spanish?
NR: And Spanish.
GC: Did they ever sing any in German?
NR: No, not German.
26
GC: The German influence , you say, was not quite as strong
down here.
NR: No.
GC: What other sort of activities that you remember at
Christmas, that the people used to like to see?
NR : There wasn't much doing at Christmas.
GC: How about the Pastores?
NR: I don't remember they had a Pastores here . But they
used to have them, years ago, in Elmendorf because some of
the people that lived here--a lot of them come from that
region and they used to go back there. Each one had his own
different character to play. So they'd go up t here and after
that, they used to have them in San Jose.
GC: The Pastores, I understand, might have been here before
you came and then from here, they started having them at
Elmendorf.
NR: No, they probabl y had them at Elmendorf first. I don't
know.
GC: And then / they began to have them at San Jose Mission.
NR: Yes .
RICHTER 27
GC: By that time there came more cultural activity as well
that was sponsored by the San Antonio Conservation Society
and other preservationists.
NR: That's right . Groups.
GC: What did your husband like about the missions?
NR: Well, to tell you the truth, I don't know. But he l iked
it down here and he worked for it.
GC: He used to work closely with the father there , too.
NR: Yes.
GC: What sort of work did your husband do for the miss ion?
I know you did all sort of things and I'm sure he did all
sorts of things too.
NR: Yes 1he did.
GC: Can you give me one example?
NR: Well, offhand I couldn 't tell you. When he wasn 't here,
you 'd find him down there doing something. Helping move
something or---
GC: Let me ask you one more thi ng. Mrs. Richter , as we ' ve
gone on here i n our interview on San Juan Capistrano and your
very pleasant memories , I guess sometimes challenging mem­ories
of San Juan Capistrano, we're very fort unate to have
your eldest daughter here, Mrs . Nellie Cude and your youngest
daughter, Mrs. Ernestine Sisson with us also. Why don ' t we
include them in this inte rview, since they both grew up as
little girls when you a nd Mr. Richter were sti ll pretty
a c tive around San Juan Mission. You still are , but I mean
active back in those years.
RICHTER 28
GC: Ernestine, what do you recall about San Juan Capistrano
as a young girl? I understand you went to St. Theresa's
Academy, but your days around the home were spent, in a sense,
in the shadow of San Juan Capistrano Mission. What are some
of the things you would like to share about the physical
aspects and appearances of the Mission that you most remember
as a little girl?
ES: The thing that impressed me more than anything was all
the trees that used to be in the area. The cottonwoods, the
mesquites. The whole area used to be full of trees and when
we were chil dren with catechism classes during the summer­time,
we'd start out in the church and then we ' d move outside
under the trees with our books and we'd have our instruction .
And at the end of the catechism classes every summer , they
had first communion. And Papa used to make hot chocolate
for the f irst communion class and rush down there as soon as
Mass was over.
GC: So you made your first Holy Communion at San Juan Capis­trano?
ES: Yes1 I did .
GC : But you were baptized in Mexico?
ES: No. San Juan Capistrano . My two sisters---
GC: Oh that ' s right. You're the youngest, so you were
baptized at San Juan Capistrano .
ES : I was baptizedmd made my firs t communion and I guess
the othe r two made their first communion here , also. Papa
used to take hot chocolate down and sweet rolls . And then
RICHTER 29
ES: aft er the first communion Patsy Kunz and I were a lways
the angels.
And after our f irs t communion classes we used to be
dressed in our white d r esses with our huge wings on our
backs, halos on our heads .
GC : Do you still have pictures of all t his?
ES: I don ' t know where the pictures are, do you? The
Theresa nuns might have some of the pictures because they
were the ones that--and as we grew older, we used to go and
pick up the Theresan nuns and bring t hem out for Mass on
Sundays .
GC: So the big thing after Holy Communion was pan dulce and
chocolate .
What are some of the other things? You do remember the
greenery and the vegetation around the landscape within the
Mission and outside the Mission . How about the structures
themselves?
ES : There were many more buildings than t here are now , along
wit h a lot more trees. But they ' r e mostly torn down now.
They're j ust walls now but they used to be higher structures.
GC: Mrs. Richter was saying that the walls were higher a t
one time. She also said that she remembers when she f i rst
arrived here that many peopl e , somewhat unscrupulous ly,
woul d come and go off with a bunch of the r ocks that were
nearby.
ES : It wasn ' t unscrupulously. The p r iests who had i t at
t he time were able to let them t ake it . There wasn ' t any
Park Service or anything. They were just ruins . So they
RICHTER
ES: just let people cart off whatever they wanted.
GC: What do you think we could do now if we had them!
30
NC; All we'd have to do is put the roofs back on and we'd
have a whole lot, instead of the ruins that we have now.
GC: What else do you remember about the Convento and the
chapel and the walls, and the big gates?
NC: There were no big gates. There used to be a fence in
front of the church. We used to drive up there on Sunday
mornings. Remember the old hurricane fence? There was
access to it. It was open; no gates. The gates came later.
GC: Mrs. Richter, you were going to say something about the
gypsies. They used to drop by here?
ES: They used to camp down there all the time.
NC: They used to come with their caravans with their horse­pulled
wagons. Very few cars. I don't think they had cars,
did they? It was just a regular gypsy caravan. They would
camp there two or three weeks at a time.
ES: You'd go down and have your fortune told. They used to
give big parties right before they left. We'd go down to
the gypsy party.
Well, this doesn't pertain to the Mission. What brought
th i s back to me was two years ago we went to northern Cali­fornia,
camping in the parks in Oregon and Ca lifornia. There
was a caravan of gypsies up there and it did bring back to
mind when the gyps i es were in here. One of the men that was
in our group spoke Romanian and he went and had conversations
with the gypsies and they just took him over. They invited
RICHTER 31
ES: him, alone , to a party they were having . A whole sheep
out over a pit in the ground. Had the coals down there and
had the sheep on a spit . There must have been about 30 of
us in the group and he was the only one they i nvited to their
party.
NC: They used to do the same thing here with their pit and
their cooking. The gypsies here used to give parties and
invite the whole town.
GC: What are some of the things you remember, Mrs. Nellie?
NC : Wel l, they ' ve covered pretty much of it, I suppose . I
don't know if mother has mentioned about the choir loft we
had at the back of the church.
GC: So you still remember the choir loft?
NC; Oh sure. It hasn 't been that long since that was torn
down. We were in the choir .
ES: During the war, we used to go to the military installa­tions.
We had a very active choir. We ' d go to Ft. Sam,
Brooks, Kelly or some place like that . They'd send a truck
for us and we ' d go for the Mass at the military bases.
GC: You all must have had a very, very fine choir.
ES : We did.
NC: There's a picture of it in that Centennial magazine. It
was .rather a sad thing when they tore the choir loft down .
GC: Who's they? Is this before the WPA or after?
NC: Way after. I t's been just recently .
ES: Ten years or so, hasn't it been? When they renovated
the church? The inside of the church. It rui ned the i nside
RICHTER 32
ES: of the church.
GC: What you ' re saying is, it didn't look like what it looks
like today?
NC: No. The choir loft was in the back of the church and
there was a staircase that went up to the choir loft . That ' s
where the choir sang. We had an organ. It was an old pedal
organ.
NR: (showing picture) This was the first communion and here
wa s the choir.
GC: Miss Ernestine, what other physical features do you
recall about the surrounding areas at Mission San Juan
Capistrano? You were t el l ing me something about water being
found in springs nearby. Can you tell me about them?
ES : Well , behind the church in the area that goes down
towards the river, there were springs .
GC: That's on the west side of the wall?
ES : West side of the wal l , west of the Mission area. There
were many. The water was just fresh, clear, cold water bub­bling
up out of the ground . Delicious to drink . They f ormed
little streams down to the river. Nice green patches of water­cress.
In the spr ingtime we ' d go down and pick watercress .
GC : That wasn ' t too long ago was it? That was the 30's and
40's, wasn't it?
ES: Oh yes .
GC: That was the stuff you could do at the Mission in 1731.
(laughter) From what you said there appear to be certain
geological, e nvironmental changes that have taken place in
RICHTER 33
GC: this area.
NC : Oh many. I imagine there used to be an--we used to go
down there fishing all the time. Many people used to f ish .
You could drive between the river and the church. You could
go down there and picnic. That' s where we learned to swim.
ES : And there were tall trees. There were grape vines and
we used to go stand on top of a hill and take a grape vine
and a la Tarzan swing down right to the path on the river.
GC: Do you think that the change of the flow of the river
caused by the engineers of the San Antonio River Authority
has affected this area quite a bit?
NC: Oh very definitely. It eliminated all the springs .
The bigges t springs stopped after the river was redone.
GC : And that may be, possibly, the reason why some of the
trees have dried up.
NC: There's still underground water there, I 'm sure . There
are a couple of l ittle dams inside one big dam . They've torn
down--that one swimming hole we had was just great. It
started out real shallow and then you could go deeper and
deeper.
GC : There is a little house, one of the structures that
still remains standing, along the east wall of the Mission
s i de which appears to be less Spanish s tructure design and
more like a little German thatched roof type of home . It
is said that it was used as a school for awhile . Do you
remember any kind' of uses of that l ittle structure while you
were little girls?
RICHTER 34
ES: People lived in i t. There was always someone living in
it.
NR:
GC:
First it was, I think, Ben Rodriguez.
And his family once lived there?
NR: His brother-in-law used to live there.
Beningo Rodriguez.
GC: Not necessarily him but his brother-in-law?
NR: And when they moved out, then the Gonzalez family moved
in.
GC: Do you remember the Gonzalez' first name?
NC: One thing also, I don't know if mother has told you or
not, is that this used to be a very thriving community. It
isn't like it is today. In fact all the way down to the
Mission used to be houses. This is the only road.
ES: You remember the house. Some women lived in there until
some woman committed suicide.
GC: You mean in that little house?
ES: That house we were talking about. And after that, no
one ever would move back in .
GC: Was this lady living there or did she just go in there
to commit the act?
ES: She was living there.
GC: By herself?
ES: The family was living there.
family.
NR: No, she just walked in there.
She was part of this
GC: Approximately when was this? Do you r emember? 30's,
40's?
RICHTER 3S
NR: No, it was in the SO's.
GC: So there was somebody living there as early as the SO's?
NC: Oh, way back.
GC: But you say in the 50's this tragedy occurred?
NC: I t hink about that time they started getting interested
in the missions, too.
GC: Maybe this was before your time but was when WPA moved
in, do you remember your mother or father t e l l ing you some­thing
about the activities that the WPA was involved i n?
NC: We used to go down there and help dig.
ES: We remember that and all the different trenches and stuff
that were dug and the different walls that were uncovered
and the ske l etons that were unearthed. They were all covered
over. Non:e were taken away.
GC: As a resume of this as we, you might say, c i rcle the
field, Mrs . Richter, and try to make a landing, are there
some concluding remarks that maybe we could make? Why don ' t
we start with your youngest daughter and then we go to Miss
Nellie and then we'll go to you.
What are some of the things that you t hink that one ,
you, recall as pleasant memor ies of the missions that you
have and what are some of the things that you would l ike
people, in years ahead, to know and keep i n mind about the
miss ions? Miss Nellie?
NC: Oh my! I think the pageantry really. The first com­munion,
the Children of Mary. They were involved, all the
families i n the area.
RICHTER 36
ES: One thing, also , we didn't cover. We used to gi ve plays
down t here at the end of each session of catechism. There
was a stage built outside of the church and we gave plays ,
religious plays, mostly .
NR: Yes, and another thing, I think i t was during the Depres­sion,
different men , really, used to come out . They were
sponsored by , I don't remember the name of the organization,
but they used to comeoutonce a week and give lectures, advice
to the people. Things like that. I do remember that.
GC: About the early 1930's?
NR: I think the director 's name was Trouts, or something
like that .
NC : I would really like to see that mission restor ed , com­pletely.
GC: Well, we hope to do something along those lines as we
go a long. What are some of t he other things, Miss Nellie,
you want us to keep in mind. Some of the parish activities
that are now part of the history of San Juan Capistrano in
the 30's and 40' s, and SO's about the par ish life of the com­munity
. The communions, the plays , the pan dulce, chocolate ,
the baptisms, I guess .
NC : The weddings. It was always beautiful here . Always .
GC: What are some of the things you remember about the
weddings here that sortofstand out in your mind , Miss
Nellie?
NC: I think after the wedding, the yard and the tent. The
whole community. And it all happened. The wedding . You
RICHTER 37
NC: danced. It was a big family. Everyone was invited.
ES: Even wakes. We had old fashioned Irish wakes . St ayed
up all night with the body. Just an old fashioned wake with
food, drinks.
NC: Stayed up all night. Someone was with the body all the
time . Then they' d take the body to the church. This was in
the hall. They usually had the bodies in the hall.
ES: Very seldom--this is a very recent thing for someone to
be buried out of a funeral home . You might have somebody
buried off the front porch here.
GC : I was asking Mrs. Richter about that. Besides the
cemetery that you had here, do you remember any other bury­ing
places nearby? Any burying place within the Mission
compound itself?
ES : No, not in our time.
NC: Everyone here is buried i n that cemetery and that ceme­tery
was full as far back as I can remember. They 're still
burying people in there . They just used to dig up bones and
move ' em over . Put somebody else in.
But anyway, getting back. We had the wakes all the
time. Carried the body to the father at the Mission , had the
Mass and all this s tuff, and then bring i t over here to the
cemetery. Buried them . It was really a two or three day
affair.
GC : As I talked with Mrs. Richter , we were trying to pin­point
some of the contributions of the people ove r the years .
Diffe r ent e thnic groups , Catholic ethnic groups, and she said
RICHTER 38
GC: there was a large Mexican-American community here. She
said the German-Catholic group wasn ' t really that strong here
in this area .
NC: There are no Germans . I would say very few . We were
probably about the only ones except t he Kunzes and us and
the Geigen Muellers , maybe . But the Italians, there was a
number of Italians also . I think all the customs ofallthe
nationalities just got mixed up.
GC: By the 30's and 40's was--you mentioned the I rish , t he
Irish type.
ES: I don 't think there are any Irish left, other than
mother .
GC : Sort of a Spanish-Irish, Mexican-Irish t ype of wake that
could be quite elongated .
ES: Yes . They were fascinating.
GC: These are some of the things that we'd like to capture,
to keep, to remember. Unless we do it now, unless somebody
gives us some kind of an inkling , share your experiences with
us, we won't have them.
What are some of the other things--tell us , Miss Nellie ,
what you want us to remember about the missions to bring this
to a close.
NC: I don 't know. All our memories are what we've told you
more or less. Just really can't bring things back t he way
they were. No matter how hard we try.
GC: They're all pleasant memories, I expect.
NC: Oh definitely.
RICHTER 39
GC: Miss Ernestine, what would you say?
ES: I would like to have the missions restored , as I said
before. After all, they are part of our heritage . They ' ve
been here for such a long t i me . I'm glad the missions are
under the National Park Service, or any park service, as far
as that goes, to make sure that they stay here.
GC: Well, good. The National Park Service appreciates that.
Mrs. Richter, what are some of the closing comments you ' d
l ike to share with us?
NR: I think I agree with my girls that we hope the National
Park Servi ce really takes care of the missions.
GC: We want to thank you for your time, Mrs. Richter, for
sharing so many pleasant and cha llenging experiences that
you, your husband, your family had here over the years. And
I hope the National Park can benefit from what you have told
us today. And we can go to school on your experiences. And
as your daughters say, perhaps restore them and ma i ntain them
and interpret them for future Americans in the years a head.
Thank you.
END OF TAPE I , Side 2 , 25 minute s.
RICHTER, NELLIE MABEL(MRS . ERNEST) SUMMARY
San Juan Capistrano from 1928 to 1983 as remembered by
Ne llie Mabel Richter.
She talks about the physical structures as she first knew
them in 1928, especially the deteri orated condition of the
mission , itself.
She recalls that community life pretty much revolved
around the church .. masses, weddings, funerals , fiestas,
wakes , e tc.
Later, with her two daughters , we are able to compare
·the physical environment today and then, before the river
channe l was changed and trees were lost.
A picture of a small community in a simpler , s lower t ime.