THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso
INTERVIEW WITH: Miguel (Mike) Juarez,
DATE :
Cesear Caballero , Oscar Lozano (Tape 2)
21 May 1994
PLACE: Unive rs i ty of Texas at El Paso, Texas
INTERVIEWERS: Bob Fitts, Leslie Burns
(mixed conversation)
... Oscar Lozano, high school teacher , Cesear
Caballero, librarian, Miguel (Mike) Juarez, activista
activist.
LB:
BF:
LB:
BF:
And it's Leslie Burns and Bob Fitts.
This is Bob Fitts. (laughter)
It'd better be.
(laughter) You're on the air.
.. . Last time I looked. (l aughter)
So what are the o ther ... what views do you have of how
the discussion is going on? .......... .
BF: Really useful. We were talking a little bit about
music when we stopped and do you want to tel l them a
little bit about what you were saying about Johnny and ?
LB : Oh ... the one member of our committee who couldn't
make it today is Johnny Rodriguez , he has a master in music,
with an emphasis in ethno-musicology. He's also a
performance artist and t here was a performance this week-end
in Austin so he was unable to make it because of t his prior
committment. But we 're relying on him to do ... at least
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orchestrate ... to use a horrible pun research about the
music. So again ... any consul tants that you can think of
for this area ... dealing with music or the arts or anything
like that would be appreciated.
Well, as you might know ... there's a general music
called Tejano music but on ... and El Paso has always been a
part of that trend. Some very important groups have evolved
from here ... ................... for instance ... Ray
Comacho is from this area. And he's famous in California
mostly ... but he originated here. And like him there are
many others that have gained some kind of prominence and
moved on the artistic ladder they're not ... no longer
here in El Paso . But as part of your exhibit maybe you can
do a section of the history of Tejano music and how it has
evolved.
I ...... .. .. . entertainers ... say like vikki Carr .. .
isn't Vikke Carr from El Paso? and also different
individuals from the area .
I ... for the history would you be including Juarez?
..... Juarez because both cities are really neighboring
towns. And it's not like San Diego - Tiajuana where they
have to drive some miles to get to Tiajuana ... it's both
. .. the cities share the same borders .. . so ... can that be
somehow displayed within the exhibit?
LB: I think we have to address that ... the border region
like ... La Frontera '" because it's so different from the
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rest of Texas and the rest of Mexico, too .
Yes.
LB: I think we have to talk about that in some way.
And if you do address it ... I guess that brings up a
whole new ... a whole new chapter I guess ... in either
personalities and/or music ... history ... politics ...
BF: For instance one of the things t hat came up about that
is that a t least down along the southern Rio Grande and what
used to be a strip west of the Nueces ... an awful l ot of
Mexican - Americans didn 't even know they were Americans. In
fact, I suspect that that information was somewhat kept from
them and encouraged by the Anglo population in that area
they didn't know they could vote ... this is a long time
ago .
BF: And so there's this relationship that's r ea lly tangible
with Mexico ... which you guys are certainly
aware of it
Yeah . And then a lso the various labor movements ...
the Bracero Program ... and so forth
LB: Which program? I'm sorry .
The Bracero Program. And also the various
World War II .
And also the various . .. I think ... anti-Mexican
sentiment ... I guess ... feelings through the various
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decades and how there's one now ... there's one now in
California.
The Bracero Program ... excuse me ... the main
objective ... the Bracero Program brought what was an
invita t ion by the US Government to bring in labor from
Mexico ...
Guest-workers .
... guest-workers ... thank you.
LB: Guest-workers?
That's like my father was ... one of these people that
came in soon after the second war ... well, during the World
War ... to work on the railroads and other industries. As
you know, the US was a t war and a lot of the men had to go
to war so ... the government saw that it was necessary to
import laborers ... guest-workers and that happened .
The Bracero Program resulted in a great movement of people
to the US. Some which were repatri ated soon
after that but a lot remained here and settled portions of
the country ... anyway ... I like to explain that because
and then . . ...
Then one of the different programs my ......... . .
immigrants . . . early history of El Paso and the Southwest
from I guess the early 1900s to about 1920 ... '30 or so . . .
so that would be a good ...
Marty Garcia?
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Yeah, Marty Garcia . It would be a good introduction to
the area and so forth.
And how the railroads and industry helped s hape thi s
r egion ... t hat ' s also very impor tant.
LB: I've actually been down there video taping the
railroads and some of that ... we did quite a bit of
shooting of ... establishing shots around El Paso before we
did our Tigua documentary . Because the Ti gua history and
the Mexican-American history ... Americanos ... it
c ris scrosses a lot.
I t h i nk it would be a great idea to ... for future
exhibits to give ample credit to the fact that by the
time the Anglo started moving to Texas ... that there was
a lready an established ... a number of industries ... v ery
well established ... or economic activities if you will ...
in terms o f f arming and ranching . . . irrigation was pretty
much in place ... the trade . . . especially trade. And I
don't think that comes through in either t he history or in
the education that's taught to children . It results in a
lack of self - esteem and a lack of r e cognition that the
p resence of the Americano here has had a posit i ve impact on
what Texas is all about .. . and I think it should come
t hrough in t he future exhibits .
Well, along the same vein, in talking about settling
the West ... when Anglos ... Angl o settler s came i nto this
part of Texas ... and I'm sure parts of south Texas .. . that
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they arrived and parachuted in and they landed in
circumstances that allowed them to survive ... settlers from
the East that had to venture into quote/unquote unci vilized
areas of the West l ike Oregon or Colorado ... Wyoming
those areas where there were no quote/unquote aspects of
civilization those people were real pioneers . They had to
develop something from scratch ... everything from finding
b uilding material s to cul tivating the land and those k i nds
of things that enabl ed a people to survive . When the Angl o
settlers moved into Texas ... especially in Central South
Texas or here to t he EI Paso area ... those kinds of things
had a l ready been developed ... what to use as bui l ding
materials . . . how to farm the l and . . . what kind of farmi ng
methods to use .. . what was effective ... what was not
effective ... and so the Mexicano-Chicano taught the Anglo
settler all of those things.
LB: The indigenous people?
The indigenous people. And I think t he exhibit should
relfect that .. . you know. It was not strictly Anglo
sett l ers t aming the West in Texas . .. right?
LB: That's a good point.
There was already a Mexican cowboy ... the vaquero
which pre - dated the .......... . has been established
cowboy .. ... . . .. ... West .. . .. .
The cowboys .. ............... West.
Most of what they learned ....... cows
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cowboy words . .... .. .
It may be good to show and if it doesn't already s how
it .. . the ... a drawing or a depiction of the ranches that
existed .. . t h e industries t hat existed throughout the s t a te
or the region ... and what they were producing . We know
from the histories that exist that there was a l o t of
production of grapes ... wine from what we read t here
was a wine production industry in El Paso and other parts of
the area that even exported to Mexico and to other parts.
This was an important wheat growing region and we do
not think of it as a wheat growing region but ...
It was .
.. . a ll along the river valley it was an important
wheat growing r egion.
Anyway ...
LB: We do t hat ... we sort of do that in our Nat i ve
American area ... establish what it was like pre-point of
contact. What sorts of civilized activities were going on
. .. to try to d i spel those myths .. . but this woul d be a
logical progession to have this throughout.
Yes.
Maybe from the exhibit you could generate publications
which could be . .. say ... sold at the gift shop or posters
or something that people can take back with them.
LB: Videos?
Videos .... ..... ... postcards .. .
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LB: Yeah.
BF: As a general rule a number of things kind of spin-off
from a project like this one ... including videos ... s t udy
guides and what we call Tex- kits which are taken around to
schools and so forth like that ... as well as pamphl ets and
that kind of thing . Once all the work is done then a number
of things can be based on that ... to extend its impact and
so forth. So yeah ... that's t he plan I think.
LB: I hope so.
BF: A question we ..... talked about i t much .. . but
okay ... here ' s one that I think has obvious answers ...
but I'm going to ask it anyway ... do you believe tha t there
are particular traits that bind Tejanos together? And can
you list some of those that you t hink are most i mportant.
I think language ... music . .. cultural values ... and
that goes together ... and then to an extent ... religion
... brings us together Tejanos Chicanos ...
throughout the state ... like the same kind of music ... and
in a general sense the food that we eat although we have
variations of food but you know we have a basic
built in blocks of different plates like the tortilla
and the frioles and the chiles ... right? ... that blends us
together. Cultural values like family togetherness ...
Community .
... community values ... veneration fo r motherhood ...
quote unquote ... the mother's always respected and it is
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sort of like we ... being really that keeps the fami l y
together ... and many times it is the authority in the
family contrary to the republic ... or the prominent image
of the macho, dominant family ... that is not necessarily so
... those kinds of t hings those kinds of cultural values
blends us together.
There 's a l so a dedication to country . Many Chicanos
Mexican-Americans served in many ... in the various wars
World War II .. , Korea ... Vietnam ... there was a
disproportionate number of Chicanos ... Latinos . .. who died
in Vietnam. And as a result of Vietnam ... that War
Moratorium was created in 1970 ... so I think service to
country ... t o the f act that when people immigrate here .. .
when Mexicanos immigrate t o the United States there's that
... there's that need to give back something to the
community and to the country.
BF: Another talking point I think in there is the GI Forum
and what the military service and the availability of the GI
Bill and stuff like that did to help people who hadn't up
until that time had any educational opportunities. It
opened some doors that weren ' t opened before.
LB: Should we address ... I know of some Mexican-Americans
are not Catholic ... ?
I think i t 's important.
LB: Oh, you think it's important to bring out the ... ?
Yeah ... yeah. I think it's important that people
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understand that there's ... just like in other cultures
it ' s not totally homogenized in every respect and certainly
philosophy ... such as religion ... would . . . should be
treated ... and let people know tha t there are variations .
I mean ... my mother became a Jehovah ' s Witness . . . okay .. .
my daughter is growing up a Morman and so on and so forth.
And it's a l l in the family. We still have a strong Catholic
tradition but we also have within that same Catholic
tradition that maybe that needs to be explained ... a
strong native kind of philosophy.
In that context . .. you have the veneration of the
Vi rgin de Guadalupe which has it's roots to indigenous
beliefs which was the veneration of ... . . .. .. . ...... . the
Mot her Earth . .. as representative as Mother for all t he
people and even though ... like Cesear says . .. most
. .. not all Mexicanos ... not all Chicanos are Catholic . ..
you know ... you still have a ... these kinds of beliefs
that somehow La Virgen . .. even if you're not a devout
Catholic .. . you don't belive in . .. quote unquote . ..
Popism . .. right? . . . that somehow the Virgen is above all
of the native t h ings associated with the Catholic church .
And I think that links Chicanos . .. Tejanos . . . throughout
the s t ate of Texas there ' s a veneration for La Virgen
even though people might not be devout Catholics.
LB: And this is because of Mo t her Earth . . . their
indi genous tradition of Mot her Earth?
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Right.
And I think one way that maybe various examples of the
Virgen could be displ ayed which would make it maybe more
exciting is the different forms where it's found . Maybe in
some forms that it would be considered more like folk or
craft . .. you find the Virgen on anything . .. from Catholic
products to etching
Tattoos.
Tattoos . . . handkerchiefs ........ arte ... and
diversity of images
A strong image very strong image.
LB: ...... in the Ameri can .. . National Museum o f Natural
History in Washington, the Smithsonian has an exhibit ...
American Encounters .. . on New Mexico ... and they have a
display like that ... of tattoo ... and a Guadalupano banner
... and vari ous things ... but it is it emphasizes the
popularity . .. not just the religious aspect ... but the
true popularity of the image . Any other ways you can think
of to engage the public in this exhibit ... visually?
I think a very effective video tape would be showing a
matachin group doing the Fiesta Guadalupe ... doing the
dance that is done every year . .. that is done every year i n
honor of the Virgen de Guadalupe.
LB: I video taped that in ... December before last . I n San
Antonio we need to understand that there are differences
across t he state.
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It would create a l ot of understanding of the
indigenous link to the current society.
LB: Yes.
I think.
LB: Yeah, I think so too . It was fascinating for me .. . I
was brought up Methodist and ... you know ... it was
fascinating.
Another type could be .. . say t he food ... food maybe
I don't know . .. does the bookstore sell receipe books
or things like that that people can take with them? . . . or
somehow if they ... do you celebrate the . ... . ...... . . ? or
maybe some of the different receipes that go along with the
LB: We have an altar every year. And we also have an
interpretive area that's sort of a stage set-up . . . with a
backdrop of the jacal ... and there's an interpreter who
does . .. who grinds corn and does that . Explains the
indigenous tradition. What do you t hink about that? Is
that something that we should continue to incorporate or do
you think ... ?
jacal
LB: Can you do that? Since you're
BF: I'm embarrassed to some extent to ... it's not really a
jacal . . . it's more of a setting to give a feel for a jacal .
It's got some cane backing and this and that stuff and then
a ... basically a platform about the size of this room
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maybe a little bit bigger . .. with a lot of different food
preparation i tems and medicina l t hings and . .. you know
utensils ... foods ... and that k ind of thing. And the
programming that goes on there ... the interpretation covers
a wide range of kind of household food and other relat ed
things.
Two great contributions by the Mexicano n o t onl y in
Texas but throughout the country . . . are the use of nat i ve
materials to build shelter. Of course the use of the adobe
I think that comes through on your video tape . . . and
the the architecture. Perhaps in developing future exhi bits
maybe that can be used as part of the exhibit to show the
form and style. More than just the jacal idea because
. .. and to me jacal connotes a very ... almost a temporary
structure
Even a primitive .
... a primitive hut.
I was going ask how did you arrive at the use of
that word jacal? Was it ? Did you encounter
. . . . . . . . . . . . ?
BF: I didn't arrive at it ... it's been there for years . . .
before I carne that was in operation .
Have you had people in other parts of the state using
have you encountered people using that word in their
vocabulary?
BF: Yes .
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Like in South Texas?
BF : Uh-huh. South and West Texas .
I would I think that maybe ... I'm not sure we
would agree with we may agree t hat ... you may be
cautious to use that word ... and how you use it in
terms of depicting or portraying a dwelling.
Uh-huh.
Because ... yeah in Spanish jacal means a very
primitive dwelling.
A shack.
A shack ... almost like a ... not exactly a shack ...
but a primitive dwelling .
LB: A hut?
Excuse me?
LB: A hut?
A hut.
LB: No, we don't use the word hut in the Native American
area.
That's what I mean ... that ' s what I mean. That's why
you shouldn't ...... .
It has the same connotation.
You should be careful how you use that word.
And if you're trying to depict like a household of the
1800s or even later ...
Then it wouldn't be .
.. . an adobe structure for this part of the country ...
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an a dobe structure is more appropria te . I don't know 1n
the Lower Valley over there ... but here the building blocks
were .. ...... in this area . And . . .
The dominant ... . in Texas like t hat . .. the adobe
structure would be .. ..
BF: In San Antonio they did a lot of stone and they did
caliche block .. .
Caliche block
BF: . .. which is very like adobe except they literally
quarried caliche
Just cut it
BF : blocks ... cut it and stacked i t up ... but that's
one that interesting to t he jacal notion because ... who
was lecturing us about that s ubject that talked about ... it
was Dennis . . . right?
LB: Uh-huh. Yes.
BF: He talked about t h e fact that in Mexico .. .
LB: Dennis Medina . Ri ght?
BF: Dennis Medina , yeah. That one of t h e things t hat
seemed to be turning up was a k i nd of ... a certain kind of
sentiment about jacal s ... showing up on calendar pictures
... with a kind of romantic scenes and that kind of
thing it was kind of like kind of a very sentimental
thing and almost like the old l og cabin or the old home
place
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BF: ... or t hat kind of thing . And .. .
Although j acals do get used a lot even today in the
very tropica l areas of Mexico ... why? because t hey are
very cool ... (laughter) .. . t hey're cool . Anyway
LB: I have a quest i on ... and maybe I should b e asking this
of women participants ... but we have no women ...
He can stand in for one .
( laughter)
LB: If you can
I'll stand in for one .
LB: Some people have criticized ... some women have
criticized our interpretative area . .. because it has the
interpret er in the jacal ... on her knees gri nd ing with a
metat e a mano ... and that somehow we should not portray
women on their knees . .. that it's a bad stereo - type . Do
you have any comments about that?
Shouldn't por tray anyone on their knees ...... .
Tha t's tru e .
LB: But that's how
On the other hand that was .. . h is tori cal l y that's
correct ~n terms of how t hat metate was used . I can
tell you for a fact ... my grandmother used it in exactly
that manner . I don't see how else i t could have been used .
Because you need a lot of lever age to pull that great heavy
r ock across that grindstone .
But let me suggest ... that if you try to convey the
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importance of a metate and corn products I'm sure
LB: The importance of corn, yes.
you can come up with better ways of depicting that
rather than having tha t lady using the metate.
LB: But ... because that's effective on the floor because
you can pass that a round to the kids they can smell it
they can ... they might even eat i t ... you know ... and
There's something you know ... I may differ with
some of the folks here but I have no problem with
depicting the women . .. if the women find that objectionable
I can understand ... but you know ... there are some
things that women can be too sensitive about and I'm going
to ......... .
... .. sexist rema rk.
That may be so .. . but you know what? . .. I can tell
you that's exactly the way it is used ... is exactly how I
remember my grandmother using it ... I don't remember
anybody using a metate standing up ... or how else would you
use a metate? On the other hand ... it's an historical
thing because nobody uses metates anymore ... not even in
Mexico .. . so (laughter) What are we worried about?
LB: So maybe we shouldn't even put it in there? No?
Maybe not.
See Cesear, if the purpose of any kind of historical
exhibit is to teach people and you want to teach young girls
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about
Okay .
... their self-concept ...
Okay .
.. . you don't want to teach them that women should be
to do the ... that women should be designated to do the
backbreaking work in the household .. . t hat they are the
servants of the household ... you don't want to teach that.
If we're concerned about
LB:
If we're concerned about portraying a negative role
then perhaps we should leave it out . I would agree wi th
Mike ... that if that's the concern then we s hould leave it
out. But ... you know ...
Or maybe you could put a man doing it ... I guess not.
Well ... but that would be incorrect, Mike . I mean how
many men have you seen using a metate or how many men ever
used a metate in Mexico ... come on ... (laughter ) ... that
would be terr ibly ... historically ... incorrect and ...
LB: So what are good ways to portray ........ . .... in this
exhibit?
Okay guys ... you're the experts ... I'm the sexist
here. (laught e r)
I think that point that you're going to have a skit of
Emma Tenayuca is a very good way of portraying women in
leadership positions . .. leadership roles ... and in roles
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that they have historically played in the history of the
Chicano ... as l eaders of our people. That's a good way of
depicting a positive image of women.
That's a good point.
Also the image of image of motherhood ... as all
Chicanos respect motherhood ... that's a good way of
projecting the importance of women in the exhibit.
Women as teachers ... women as ....
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2 .
not teed off ... but we don't have to be complete
revisionis t when it comes to history. That's my point of
view. History is history. Even if we don't like it. Yeah.
As Oscar was saying ... that we men as teachers ... as
healers '" those are important roles. Yeah. Anyway ...
(laughter)
BF: Another thing we talked about and this relates to food
and so forth ... is the notion of maybe instead of having
the jacal and the ... and all that stuff ... have a
fundementally modern kitchen area and portray a young
married woman who is used to only modern
Drop the daycare center.
(laughter)
BF: ... and her grandmother having to . . . because the
blender broke or something start telling her other ways you
can do things ... it could be even the grandmother's house.
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Something ... I don't know .. . I mean that's the kind of
thing that's been discussed . . . thrown out as an idea.
Kind of the interchange between the o l d and the contemporary
ways
But one of the concerns that I have ... now that we're
discussing foods ... this is an interesting conversation
because as you can tell it brings out other issues like
the depiction of the r ole of women. I'm concerned one
of the concerns that I have is that for many people Mexican
f ood is made up of beans, corn and perhaps rice and maybe a
littl e bit of some kind of meat. Well, yeah, and of course,
chili. It's al l those but it's certainly a lot of other
ingredients that if you star t just expoloring it ' s
tremendous the types of ingredients and the types of dishes
t hat are used ... that were used and are still used. And I
often hear people saying stupid things ... well . .. not
stupid ... but ignorant comments like ... oh , y eah , Mexican
food it's you have one dish ... you order the Mexican
plate and you have a combination of ingredients just in
different formats. Well, that could be so in the
Americani zed version of Mexican f ood but real Mexican food
is a combination of many, many wonderful ingredi ents. And
that could ... if you could portray that in your exhibit in
the food exhibit that would be a great contribution to the
understanding of the fact that Mexican food is not just
(laughter) those ingredients in different shapes and forms.
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Because it's not. (laughter) You go ... I'm sure that in
Texas ... back then and as well as today there were a
great variety of foods are consumned and I'm sure that the
public would be well served if that were to come through.
I guess you could tie to ... you could tie the culture
to it being something like a capirotada which is like a mix
of so many different things. J ust like the food and
everything else and to show that t he Mexican -Americans
Chicanos ... Latinos ... whatever the named will be called
... Mexican-Te janos ... or wha t ever ... it's a combination
of many different groups ...
Influences .
. .. and influences ... heri tages ... and generations
later we've seen those heritages .
Yes.
Yeah.
Look at me ... look at me. Do I look like a ... what
do I l ook like? (laughter)
Like a Jewish ..... . ..... .
Jewish
(laughter)
So that's something that's going to be re-occurring and
not to type-cast or not to stereo type Chicano ...
Americanos as one singular form.
Yeah.
And I think in the future it's going ... it's going to
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be radically different ... it's going to change ... and it
continues to change ... Chicanos are in the period of
transition ... a people in transition ... and I think the
end product ... the one ... I think knows what
that will be ... but it's ... we're on a journey ... on a
voyage ... on a path ... which started many generations ago.
And on many different continents ... ago also .
I think another important aspect of the culture is the
spoken word. I n regards to the ...... legends ... maybe
stories .. . fami l y history ... the oral traditions songs
music .. , also the words from the poets ... the
philosophers and so forth each community has i ts own set
of poets and song writers and so forth. So somehow there
needs to be I think some interactive component or maybe just
asking people to come and read from their work or ... events
of this nature I think would be important fo r people to
hear.
LB: That's a good point. And of course I would like to see
it interactive .,. on video or audios (laughter) so ...
Yes, and also with the growing technologies ... I mean
computer ... generated . . .
LB: The touch-screen things ... that's what we're looking
into.
CDs and so forth .
LB: Uh-huh. Exactly. Accessible ma terial ... quickly
accessible material.
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I just had a visual image in mind of a ... because I'm
still concerned about the public understanding the
connection o f the his t orical with the current i ndige nous
influence. I could see . . . and you may a l ready have this in
your diorama ... o r depicted somehow ... t hat the heal er in
ancient times and then next to that the current ... modern-day
heal er in action. One though t . ( l aughter)
LB : Mike, yeah, I can see doing that in v i deo.
Yeah.
LB: And supported with h istoric materia l and ...
The ancients preparing a variety of foods .. . hundreds
and maybe t housands of ingredients ... not to mention
pharmacology ... herbs ... pharmacological herbs ... and
then the modern preparation of foods using hundreds of
ingredient s .. , not to mention herbs medicinal
ingredients . Some of which have made their way to the
regular market ... in the form of much c ommerc i a lized
ingredients ... like chocolat e
LB: Yeah.
(laughter) ..... . . mention it.
BF: Made me forget what I was going to say.
I'm sor ry. ( l aughter)
BF: Oh ... something that and you can correct me if I'm
wrong ... but I believe i t was discussed in a meeting
that people in the Valley who went to Edinburg ... or at
least some of t hem ... objected strongly to the term
Tej ano Communi ty Advisory Committee Mtg 24
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" "
Curandero?
Uh-huh . That t hey in the Valley ten ded to equate that
more with being more like witchcraft ...
Shamanism .
.. . shamanism .. . and it was a low-grade kind of
h ealing compared to another form . .. t he name of which
escapes me .. . and that I t hink must be different than San
Antonio i t may be different than here too. And the way
they looked at
I'm thinking of
LB: Yes.
Is that the term you're thinking of ?
BF: Yes, that sounds r ight.
That's t h e same thing . Well , I know what you're
talking about ... because I visited ... and I've had
... they do equate curandesimo sort of like the
occul t ... and they are ......... .. afraid of .... . ...... .
and spells and stuff like that .
(laughter )
They might be ..... . .. .. .
'" educated people ........ but they're hung-up on
that thing. But .,. you don ' t see that here in this area of
Tejas. Curanderos are seen in a positive light and they 're
. . . they are synonymous with .......... ... . a nd seen in a
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positive light . You don ' t ... people don't associate
curanderos with bad things or evil things. Although
........ people do know that there are some witches that are
out there for evil purposes ... but people are not afraid o r
hung-up on those kinds of ideas in this area.
BF: . .. ... ... thinking more in terms of the positive and
not sweating the ... yeah ... well , okay t hat's ...
that's ...
LB: I'm glad you brought that up.
BF: Yeah.
LB: Differences in area.
..... talking about getting back to the jacal thing.
You like that one.
Jacal.
May I suggest that ... I know what you 're trying to
project when you . . . when you use the term jacal and as you
described t he jacal .. . I know what the image is that you're
trying to project .,. but may I sugges t that i nstead of
using the word "jacal " that you use the term "hogar. " which
is more symbolic of .. .
LB: Would you spell that please?
H-o - g-a-r. Hogar. Which is ... you ' re trying t o
r epresent the hearth .. . the family hearth ... which i s wh a t
you described and that's the hogar. And that ' s more
a ppropriate and I think that i t would be more encompassing
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in to what the family did they understand the concept of
which is the family unit .. . the heart of
the family
Where the family resides.
LB: The kitchen. Right?
Not necessarily the kitchen .
LB:
The ... where you have the VCR ...
No ... I think ....
LB: Yeah ... I like that .
I t h i nk also the fact that the family not necessarily
justs concentrates activity in the kitchen I think i t i s
very important too. ....... now that Chicano- Americanos are
like everybody else ... pretty much ... you know .. . the VCR
c ulture . .. the TV culture ... pretty much .... . . . ... it's
no t so much I'm ............ deep in the stereo-types .. .
and now with .. . .... Chicanos I guess found in .. . a lso the
f a ct tha t Chicanos are found allover the world ... it's not
just the Southwest anymore . .. so that .......... .. . . And
they're getting print ed and published and . .. exhibited in
a ll parts of the world too. It's not just a .......... .
Southwest ..... or the US ... ..... . . .. In Mexico t oo .
There's been a resurgence to ... an interest ..... Mexico to
r eally court Chicanos ... especially in the last decade ...
for various economic and political reasons.
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LB: What about NAFTA? Should we even talk about that?
It may be a li ttle premature .
I don't thi nk that's part of history.
LB: Well , no ... the exhibit floor is not just history ...
I mean ... what do you think of h istory? History is what's
happening
Now?
You mean in terms of portraying it into ....... .
LB: In the exhibit?
If you are going to include it in some way ... I 'm sure
you're aware that there 's a lot of division wi thin our
community as to the benefits or the negative aspects of it.
Here in El Paso for instance there .. . many o f us are
opposed to NAFTA because they see it as another gate for
American culture and imperialism to make hea dway in Mexico
and the borde r communities . I'm sure tha t in other parts of
Texas you'l l find people t hat whole- h eartedly support it
because they see it as an economic opportuni ty.
Yeah, that's so.
In that way you can include I think ... as part of your
exhibit . .. the different ways t hat our people perceive such
a .....
I t h ink that can be dealt with in a di ff erent way.
Rather than dealing with the current issue of NAFTA and its
implications and that whole t hing .. . you may want t o deal
with that in t erms of the connections the very strong
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connections that still exist with families across the
border. Where that border is almost like a ... a l most non-existant
except except to say ... a bothersome
barrier that we have to deal with. Okay? But for example
... just the other day we went across to participate in the
opening of a book-fair ... we felt very welcome . .. very
much at home among friends and families
and maybe that needs to come through. And maybe we don't
have to deal so much with the economic and political i ssues
of t he NAFTA.
LB: With the imaginary border that ... ..... Rio Grande
represents.
Yeah. Yeah . And that would be interesting ... t hat
would be interesting for people to understand that
connection ... the connection .
But if you are going to include it in the exhibit,
please don't project it as a fact that all Chicanos accept
it. We don't I don't accept NAFTA. And many people
.. ........ do not accept it. So be balanced about it.
BF: I don't rea l ly know how the Chicano community in San
Antonio views NAFTA. I mean you know ... t h e business
interests and the develop ... developers and that ki nd of
thing ... you know ... they're ...... .... in it all the time
because it's going to bring bucks ...
Business is pretty much for it and labor is pretty much
against the issue.
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BF : But I really haven' t really sat down and talked about
NAFTA to my friends.
Well, where you could do a 7 minute video just like the
other one and ask people ...... .
Yeah. How do you f eel about that?
NAFTA ....... they'll think it's a burger chain
or something. ( laughter)
Actually ... if you want to create some controversy ...
I would include it in the exhibit ... if you don't want to
create controversy don't include it. (laughter) Everywhere
NAFTA issue goes it .... . .
BF: We've got plenty of places we can include .. . .
(laughter) ... ... you've got plent y . .. you've got
plenty of controversies
(mixed conversations)
LB: There's ... our docent do you know the story about
the docent don't you? tell the story.
The docent?
BF: You'd better tell it 'cause I'm not sure ....
LB: We have an intern area where we try to train role
models from many cultures ...
Uh-huh.
LB: ... she's . . ......... are a. And t here's one docent
that we have that just hates that because she
party and they were just getting with it ... taking down
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pledges ........... .
BF: Well, she ... still when . .. like I say ... when we
came to San Antonio in '79 ... she still maintained a really
low profile within the San Antonio community ... she didn't
want people to know where she worked ... she didn't want
people to know where she lived she was very , very
cautious ... and she had to be she was ... there were a
lot of people that really hated her
Because of her affiliation?
LB: But actually ....
BF: Because of that kind of thing.
LB: But actually her affiliation stopped in World War II
with the Soviet Non-Aggression Pact ... she .. ..... problem
with that ... told me ... and so ... but people didn't
understand that ...
BF: Even several years ago she was still active ... she was
going down to the Valley ...
LB: Uh-huh.
BF: ... on her farm workers' strikes and things like that
.... Chicano ..... ..... San Antonio ........ during the
'70s ... I mean ... why would she feel the need to playa
low-keyed role ... I would presume that she would have this
big group of supporters ..... . defense?
BF: Well, she did in that sense ... but she wanted the
safety of privacy about her whereabouts and what she was
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doing ... she had a public side and supporters and enemies
but the private side she guarded pretty closely.
I think maybe a component or some sort of area on how
the media has portrayed the Mexican-Americans or the
Chicanos. I think it would be interesting.
LB: Uh-huh .
Like say you could have . .. say like the Frito Bandito
that image . . . and then how the Chicano community
responded to it and what changes the company had to make .
That's good.
LB : Do you know historically .. . did that happen in Texas?
I mean ... do you ...
No, no, but I'm sure the national ... I'm sure the
LULAC organization was there ...
It was a national thing.
LB:
Yeah .
LB: Did it originate in Texas just because of .. . Frito-Lay
is a Texas ...... . Texas company?
I don't know that it ever originated in Texas . .. but
it had a strong .. . it had an important . . .... in Texas . . .
just like the rest of the country .. . that whole . . . during
the '60s and '70s especially ... that whole push to do away
with stereo types. For example .. . in El Paso the
organizations actually . .. organizations in El Paso actually
communicated with businesses that had signs that portrayed a
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sleeping Mexican on a cactus ... against a cactus or that
portrayed the Mexican as a bandito ... or any number of
stereo types. And sometimes the responses were a little
desperate ... but ... yeah .. . it happe ns.
LB: That's a real good visual
Yeah. It would make a good visual. And that would be
part of the civil rights
Civil rights .
. .. history.
Yes.
And then also the various ... I think maybe ... legal
movements . .. like the
... like the Farah strike ...
Yeah .
... or the other s trikes which have happened in this
area. And what .. . that there've been changes and so forth.
And then if we're talking about l abor ... and something that
could kind of hook on to the idea of ... or the free-trade
issue of the ................... ... the whole
......... ..... ... concept . And t hen how Texas did in this
area for years now. I guess ............. so but .. .
there's just so much that ...
LB: That' s the problem ... there's so much ... ........ .
LB: And how many square feet is this? Even ...
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You know ... that's why the idea of a changing exhibit
I know it's more work and so forth ... but maybe to
chronicle the different ... maybe periods or maybe the
different regions ... I t hink would be more appr opriate .
In lieu of a changing exhibit ... perhaps you could
find it within your budget to sponsor at each locale .. .
like in El Paso ... local exhibi ts of Tejano ... Chicano
histories ... in a local settings ...
Yeah .
... and a similar one in South Texas and a similar one
in San Antonio and so on and so on. Pero as you brought
up we are not homogenous and each one of us ... each area
where we live has a distinct historical perspective and our
experiences have been a little bit different . And maybe you
know you would have ... seeing as you have never done
anything for El Paso maybe you can sponsor a local exhibit
here.
BF: (laughter) Now don't say we've never done anything for
El Paso.
You've done this .
LB:
BF: Well, I think we've one of our Institute Ambassadors
that's nearby here I'm not sure it's in El Paso.
LB: Well, I know I' ve video taped ....... .
BF: We have sent travelling exhibits to El Paso ...
You have ... yeah, you have.
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BF : We've ... there's one of our .... . travelling exhibits
h e r e in the library ... I just noticed it.
Yeah .. The Making of the Book.
LB: Yeah.
BF: The Making of the Book . And . ..
BF: ... and the artist .. . Jose Cisneros.
Cisneros.
There's a good idea
(mi xed conversation)
BF: . .. and i t might be really nice to do a set of
travelling exhib its that wouldn ' t be permanent . . . but each
one would be regional and then they could be exchanged
LB: Yeah, it woul d be valuable for the Valley to see what
El Paso thinks and vice versa.
I think that's an excellent idea . .. the whol e concept
o f a travelling exhi bit . . . or regional exhibit.
LB: I hope some of that will come across in the v ideos when
we come back here to video tape and interview people about
their thoughts and opinion of . . .
Because you know what? very few people ... especially I
would dare say ... Chicanos will have opportunities to
travel to Austin that often
LB: Uh-huh.
... and if people do they ' re probably there for f amily
matters or business matters and they . .. I'm not sure too
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many people are going to stop by the Institute on the way
back .. . I do because . . . you know ... I usually look at the
.. . but a travelling exhibit or a visiting exhibit would be
a very ... would have a high impact very high impact I
would imagine. Anyway ... I'm sure you a ll know about that
because you already have your travelling exhibits.
LB: I would like to see one that would compare the
different areas.
Yeah compare.
LB: Yeah.
Compare. To compare and contrast the different areas.
LB: Yeah.
It would be very ..... .
Because there's really very little . . . I guess . ..
communication ..... in connect i on with the various
areas .
LB: That would be neat . .. really neat. Good idea .
BF: spent a l ot o f time trying to discuss ways of
dispelling stereo type . . . I think some of us are still
guilty of stereo typing ....... . .. .
BF: There are folks who feel like the low- riders are of
major significance ... you know ... to me I don't feel that
way because I'm a car nut ... man ... I'm in a c l ub that's
not a low-riders ... even though everybody in the club but
me is Chicano ... so
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Well, people have that negative image of low-riders
because of what Mike was saying how the media projects us
.. . and it is the mis-information that people get . . , hey,
you're a l ow-r ider you must be a ...
A gang member .
. .. a gang member ... you must be a hood .. . you mus t
engage i n drive-by s hootings . .. I don't under stand ...
(laughter)
Yep.
(mixed conversation and laughter)
BF: Basically what I 'm saying t hough is I think the l ow-rider
is in and of itself is a stereo type
Could be .
BF : . .. because there's much more diversity i n t hat area
than t hat of I mean ... I think males in this country
and some females t oo ... are car nuts ... t o some d egree
I mean t h ere are just lots of car nuts ... and I think
while low-ri ders are kind of unique ... certainly in t hei r
origins t hey are unique to Mexican-Amer icans ... compared to
street -rods or street-machines or 4-whee l driving or
whatever ... all t hose t hings are in the Mexican-American
car cul tures just like they are in the rest o f the culture.
The basis fo r people engaging in low-rider activi ties
has to do with cultural values again. And our peopl e
..... .. . .... we value a lot and we project on to it artisti c
value . .. ......... where now-a-days you'd l ike to spend
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thousands of dollars and fixing up t heir car for it to make
.......... to have a good impression of people ... it's a
way of expressing your own self-identity ... but it has its
basis going back ... way back ... to vaqueros also ...
investing a lot of money in their equipment and maintaining
their horses to make them look stand out ... in the
image of vaquero a vaquero was not a real vaquero if he had
a s l oppy looking horse and equipment ... you know. And we
have these values that have been passed on from generation
to generation .. . maybe i n the future we will be fixing up a
little space craft. (laughter)
LB: That is excellent.
Very good point.
Good point.
BF : So you don't think that the low-rider is a stereo type?
Oh, no.
BF: Okay . That's the question I was trying to get at.
LB : We've been called
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.