THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Meeting
INTERVIEW WITH: ............ , ........... Garza,
............ , Victoria Navarro,
Martine Navarro
DATE: 16 October 1994
PLACE: Abernathy, Texas
INTERVIEWERS: Matt Solorio, Cindi Gonzales
..: ....... and I live in Abernathy, Texas.
S: We have to speak up. Okay. That's fine.
..: My name is ........... and I'm from Abernathy, Texas.
..: My name is ........... Garza and I live in Abernathy, Texas.
S: Okay.
CG: Interviews today on 16 October, 1994, at the ......... Ranch, are Matt Solorio, ITC Design, Cindi Gonzales, Programs, ITC.
S: Okay. Like I said I'm just going to ask you all some questions. Did you react strongly to any of the exhibit ideas and did you have any personal preferences on any of the exhibit ideas? Which ones did you have the strongest reaction to? And if ... if you want ... suggest alternatives.
..: .........
S: Okay. Did you react strongly to any of the exhibit ideas on the personal preference survey?
..: No. I didn't .......... any preference .........
S: So maybe we ought to turn off that ..... Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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CG: ...........
S: What differences would we find in the Tejano culture in different parts of the state? For example ... like between Houston and El Paso ... what differences do you thing there would be?
..: There'd be a lot of differences I think.
..: You'd have your cultural difference between Houston and El Paso. I think Houston is more a fast-paced world ... where El Paso is more Mexican culture than Houston is. Even though you got ... Houston's got a lot of mix ... races more than El Paso but it'd be a totally different ... I think.
..: Yeah. Houston has a lot more ..... from South America ...
..: Right.
..: ... and Central America.
..: Puerto Rico ... Panama ...
..: Puerto Rico ... and El Paso mostly Mexicans.
..: Right.
..: So I think the culture would be quite a bit different there.
S: In any way in particular?
..: No ... I couldn't tell you that really. 'Cause I've never been to El Paso ... I've been to Houston.
..: The work enviornments are different in El Paso than Houston. You've got ... you know ... factory type ... you've Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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got more pay in Houston than in El Paso ... you've got more educated ... you've got more people from Mexico in Houston that are earning more money because they're already educated ... ....... a lot in El Paso they're just across the border they're not that educated ... they're just ... you might say ... on-the-job learning ... where the other ones got the more education and ........ from Mexico.
..: Uh-huh.
..: You see you've got 2 ... people from Mexico ... one in El Paso ... one in Houston ... but the one in Houston I would say would be a little more advanced than the one in El Paso. Because of the different cultural living enviornments ....... different. It's just like us here and San Antone ... there's a lot of difference.
..: Oh, yeah.
CG: Would you expand on those differences as you see them for us?
..: Would I expand?
CG: Uh-huh. Just to get ... if a total stranger walked in to the Lubbock area ... what would be the most noticeable differences do you think between Lubbock Americanos and San Antonio Americanos?
..: Oh ...
CG: Or would there be?Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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..: Yes ... there is a difference. A lot of it's your language ... just about ...
..: .......
..: ... language ...
..: ... the labor force ...
..: Oh, yeah, the labor force ...
..: The pay scale would be different. Especially when it comes to professionals ... I'll say professionals like welders ... professional workers.
..: Different living enviornment ... you know ... you've got a different way of life than we do up here. Until you live here and go down there ... you know ...
..: It's just ...
..: Like my wife ... she's got people in Pleasanton ... San Antone ... for ... and they're just different ... you know ... When we go down there and when they come up here it's different for them. You know ... they would notice the difference.
S: What do we need to know about the history of Tejanos in the Panhandle? What do you think we need to know? About ... ?
CG: The reason we pulled that question is that Yolanda Romero had done an excellent article on ... as I think ... as part of her dissertation for her PhD ... and she looked at the Mexican-American frontier experience so that she was looking Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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specifically at Amarillo and Lubbock in one instance as to how they had developed different ... in terms of Mexicano ... as opposed to say right on the frontera by Laredo or even San Antonio ... so that we have worked with her article ... so what ... what from your standpoint ... having lived here your life or having existed in this area for a long time ... who do we want to share about from the Lubbock or Panhandle area? What Tejanos or what contributors?
S: What's unique about living ... what's unique or different about living in the Panhandle as opposed to more Southern regions of Texas?
..: One of the things ... what I would rate it ... would be a slower ...
CG: Pace?
..: ... pace ... yes ... that's the word I was looking for ... you've got a more wider open area in the Panhandle ... Amarillo ... Lubbock ... you know ... it's ... the life is slower. You get down to Houston ... San Antone ... just like California ... it's 24 hour life ... you know ... the pace is fast ... everybody's in a hurry.
CG: Okay ... but is that more, sir ... between rural country living versus city living? Or does that have to do with la ........ de Tejanos?
..: Combination.Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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CG: Okay. And again ... realize our job is to play the devil's advocate ... it's not that ...
..: Right.
CG: ... there's right or wrong answers ... we just need to question so that the answers ... you give us are just yes or noes.
..: Right. Right.
CG: That sort of thing.
..: But you know ... most of us are ... speaking for myself ... I was born in Mexico in Reynosa ... so I'm Mexican-American ... I'm Mexican born. My dad ... granddad ... was born in Texas ... Americans ... so a lot of the people that are up here in the Panhandle ... we originally came from down in the Valley ... you might say Matamoras ... Reynosa ... from down there. So I ...
S: Go ahead ... we'll just ...
CG: We have ... it would appear a ... la Senora Navarro?
(mixed conversation - Spanish)
CG: And that is Martine Navarro ... have just joined us and ... basically welcome ...
..: Alright.
CG: What we're doing is running through a set of questions. We'll break at one so we've got about 15 minutes on this first round ... but we're attempting to gather ... just a feel for Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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what Lubbock ... what the Panhandle in terms of la ......... de Tejano has given to the state? How do we represent that in an exhibit that we're putting together at the Institute ... which is to up-date ... our walls stop at 1968 ... obviously a wide history has occurred since '68 ... so what we're looking for from you in this area is one .......... or Mexicano or Chicano ... whatever you're called ... what about Lubbock keeps you here ... you know ... in terms of culture? So we've just gone through a couple of questions and I'll swing it back to Matt and just feel free to join in with answers.
VN: Okay.
S: And we're recording this so if you all could identify yourselves for the tape so that we'll recognize your voice whenever we replay it ... we'd appreciate it.
MN: ..........
S: Okay. Just go ahead and identify yourselves into the tape ... your name ...
MN: Martine Navarro.
S: And where you're from.
MN: Petersburg, Texas.
VN: Victoria Navarro ... from Petersburg, Texas.
S: Petersburg?
VN: Yes.
S: Welcome. The next question I had was ... what do you feel Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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there ... or do you feel there are traits that bind Tejanos together? If so ... what are some of those traits? CG: By traits ... we're just looking at like characteristics ... if you would ... .........
S: Yes ... what things bind Hispanics together?
..: One of the main things I would say would be the ...... religious.
VN: Uh-huh.
S: That's a good one. Yeah. That's what I think.
..: That binds ... or has been to my opinion ... one of the strongest ...
S: Yeah.
..: ... in house that has held the Mexican ... Tejano ... whatever you want to call us ... intact ... is the Catholic religion ... to me.
CG: This is a constant thing we hear over ...
..: Yes.
S: Yeah.
CG: ... in our 4 community meetings now is that the church has played an important part in keeping the community together ... and giving it an identity ... although on the same token we want to remember that 95 percent of all Mexican-Americans are Catholic ... but there is still a segment that is not ... so this is ... it is important to hear both sides. Any other Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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characteristic or a trait that you feel that does exemplify Mexicanos?
..: No ... Catholic ... you know ... I mean ... you know ... the Church ... most Tejano ... put Tejanos together .............
CG: Navarros ... having just joined us ...
MN: Yeah.
CG: Jump in. (laughter)
VN: Well ... we feel the same too ... we're Baptists ... but we're ... I mean ... we are together ... you know ... ....... somebody ... we're there to help.
CG: Okay ... so again are you saying the Church ... just whatever Church ...
VN: Yes. Uh-huh.
CG: ... a Church has become ... is an important part of the community.
VN: Uh-huh. Yes. To the community.
CG: Okay. How about language? In San Antonio up until 1974 children were not allowed to speak Spanish in public schools ... is that been a similar happening in the Lubbock area?
..: You know ... that's different than up here. There's kids ... I had a little boy ... he's 22 now ... but in that ....... up until the age of 11 ... he didn't know a word of Spanish at all. I mean he could understand you but he couldn't speak Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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the language. And when he turned 11 ... 12 ... we started teaching him how to speak Spanish and now he does speak Spanish ... but there's a lot of our kids here in this areas ........... have been brought up speaking English. A lot of them ... I absolutely know that.
..: But it's not ... it's not because of ....
..: Right.
..: ... of any ruling in school ...
..: No ... no.
..: ... it's just that ... like my wife and I ... we've got one daughter and she can communicate in Spanish but then sometimes she runs into a roadblock but she can't ... she can't stop ... ............ Espanol ... you know ... like I can ... she ..........
VN: .............
..: I can't explain to grandma ... grandma doesn't understand English too well ... so when she's talking to grandma and she wants to tell her in Spanish ... she'll ... you know ... can't even spit it out. But because she ... like you said ... the majority of 'em are brought up speaking English and ...
..: Yeah. They ...
..: ... we talk to each other in English.
..: Yeah. ....... since they were little kids.
S: See that's very different than the Southern .....Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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..: Right.
CG: Do you feel there is a loss of culture due to lack of the language?
..: Yes.
..: Uh-huh.
..: Definitely.
..: You know ... like ours in the school ... now they're teaching them Spanish ... for the kids ... they can learn how to talk in Spanish because you see they go somewhere ... they don't know what they go there ... they tell them in Spanish and they don't know what ... you know ... and now then they're .......... to learn more in Spanish. ........ my neighbors ... they have 4 kids ... my neighbors ... and they go to the house ............ they go and sometimes ... you know ... I don't understand them ... what they say ... you know ... I don't know too much in English ... but ... ....... I ..... call her mother ......... I had to tell them ... you know ... what ... what I'm saying in Spanish because I don't .......... (laughter)
CG: Any other traits then? Again ... what you've given us between language ... music and the church ... no matter what church ... but the church ... we have heard these themes over. Is there anything else that you feel is another big one ... that just jumps out at you when you think what binds ... what Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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draws together?
..: I would say that work habits have a lot to do with Tejanos.
..: Work habits have a lot to do with it.
..: Yes.
..: Work habits. You know ... I'm ....... ... what was it? ... the '60s? ... when they had the bracero wage ... you know ... people would ........ ... we even had people coming from ... all the way from McAllen and Harlingen ... all that ... coming up here. And want to migrate ... every year coming up here to harvest time. I would say work habits ...... Tejanos.
CG: Arnolfu (?) brings up a good point ... the bracero program ...
..: Yes.
CG: ... one of the things that when you go in many museums it's almost candy-coated ... but nobody got mad at anybody ... nobody did anything wrong to anybody else ... what we're trying to do is rectify that so it's not like we want to go to the other extreme and make everything negative ... but several of us feel the bracero program needs to be evaluated ... it should be looked at ...
..: Yes.
..: Yes.
CG: ... that we should share that with the youth ... that this was a deliberate action on the United States government.Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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..: It was a deliberate action.
CG: So ... and you all are in a point ... where from an agricultural standpoint ... the bracero program played a big point in this area.
..: It did.
..: Yeah ... it did.
CG: Is that something that you would feel should be ... ?
..: The bracero program in the Valley ... that's what brought us up here.
CG: Right.
..: Uh-huh.
..: Because they could work a lot cheaper over there and we couldn't make a living so we had to come up here to earn more money. Because those people were earning a lot less money than what they'd pay us ...
CG: Uh-huh.
..: ... the Tejanos ... you know.
..: The bracero age played a major role in the Tejano ... what would you call it? ...
..: Movement.
..: ... movement ... or background ... or history of the Tejano. And that to me was taking of jobs of Tejanos ... that's what the bracero was doing.
CG: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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..: Wasn't it?
..: Yeah.
..: Taking the jobs from the Tejanos?
..: Yes. That's the way I looked at it.
..: And like I say it wasn't their ...
..: No.
..: ... doings ... it was the US Government doings.
..: Yes. No ... it wasn't the Mexican's fault ... or the bracero's ...
..: The United States ......
..: It was the US Labor Department's fault.
..: Right.
..: Yeah ......
CG: And we want the ... the interaction we're getting ... one of the things we all tend to forget is that on tape it comes out kind of ...... ... so we need to ... you know ... just out of courtesy ... that each ... if you've got a good comment ... just speak up. Okay. ...... (Spanish) ......
Well, Matt, do you want to go on to the next one? Or do you .......
S: Yeah. We've made a decision to arrange the exhibit by themes rather than chronology ... like I showed you in there ... how do you feel about the themes chosen? ... the Colonial roots ... the family ... the work ... the community life? Do Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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you have any comments on those.
..: No ... I think that's a good idea ... that's the root of ........... That's real good. I like it.
..: I don't have any comments right now. I would like to see it in life before I can make more evaluation as to what ... you know ... you can get a lot of details from those slides ... but you get a lot more details by walking through it.
S: Right.
..: I mean that's my ...
S; Good point. Do you think visitors will recognize these themes? And how can we make them clear to ... clearer in the exhibit?
..: Well, there again ... like I said ... ....... on side but still until you walk through it ... you get a better perspective of what ... you know ...
S: You need to be there.
..: Yeah. I've known a lot of times ... I've seen a film or slides and then go out to the actual place or museum ... what we're talking about ... and you get a better perspective ... because you're looking at it ... not just what the slide is showing you ... but whatever ... everything that's around ... you get a better viewpoint.
S: Okay.
CG: At one point Matt had made a model that we attempted to Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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carry with us to give the 3D effect of the design changes and it turned out to be a little cumbersome to move and after our first community meeting ... in the Valley ... in Edinburg ... we got some very ... very good comments but several of them took us by surprise. For example ... one of the walls that we had designed was adobe ... but it was weathered adobe ... and so the comment was ... Well, it didn't start like that ... it was new at one time ... why would you put up an old looking building? So I mean ... what we're wanting to do obviously is we're not going to make everyone happy ... I mean that's the bottom line ...
..: Yeah.
CG: ... but we want to get as much information from regular people like us instead of just the people upstairs who make the decisions. And if you all are wondering why I'm here ... I'm simply a token. Okay. I'm .......... Gonzales. I'm ................. But on paper for the University of Texas I'm a Spanish surnamed female ... which means I am token. Okay. But I have 4 years invested in this project now ... 25 almost ... being married to a .............. So my family is in Floresville, too ... ............. ... okay ... we may be pretty much somewhere ................ okay? ...
..: Uh-huh. Yeah.
CG: ... So I mean ... this is why I'm here ... alright? It's Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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partially as a balance but again it's just simple politics. So if my being here does not make you feel comfortable to speak openly as you would in front of Matt ... I can certainly step away. Okay? You won't offend me ... but I am not here to make you feel uncomfortable by default of being ........... Okay?
..: Right.
..: Oh, no.
..: I don't know about the rest of them ... not speaking for them ... I'm speaking for myself ... if you made me feel uncomfortable when we started I would have let you know.
(mixed conversation)
CG: Well, I appreciate that but ...
..: I would like to ask one question though ... what's your last name, Matt?
S: Solorio.
..: And what's ... is that ...
S: It's Mexican.
..: It's Mexican.
S: It's from North Mexico ... around Baja ...
..: Baja, Mexico.
..: ..... name was Solario ... but I took it to be Italiano or something .....
S: A lot of people think that. There's ... there are people that I work with in this committee that still insist that I Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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am Italian.
..: The name is.
(laughter)
..: I ain't saying ... but the name is ... my name is Italiano.
S: Yeah ... yeah ... but Solorio it's a rare Mexican ... very rare.
..: My name is not a Mexican name ... it's an Italiano name. (laughter)
(mixed conversation and laughter)
S: Yeah ... see there ... that's the same thing the committee ....... (laughter)
CG: Well ... let's get back on track ...
S: Okay ... the next question ... how do you feel about interactive or high-tech exhibits? ... you know ... with computers ... buttons to call up certain things ... can you suggest some visitor activities for exhibits that are high-tech?
CG: Now the reason we're putting this out is we represent a generation where computers were not part of our youth ... they are now part of our lives ... Matt's an exception ... he's younger ... okay. But our youth are being raised with computers. So in attempt to make 'em ... you see 'em friendly for all visitors. We need to look at adding ...
..: Yes.
CG: We don't have a great deal of computer technology currently Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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on the floor. We don't want to have everything ...
S: What we're trying to do is update ... update the technology ... you know ... a lot of the exhibit techniques that weren't around in '68 ... 26 years ago ... are now available and we'd like to use some of them in our exhibitry ... at least the ones that are more successful in other museums. We'd just like to know how you feel about that ... the use of high-tech computer aided exhibit type material?
..: Well ... that's what ............
..: Yeah ... that's all there is.
..: ... 10 ... 15 years from now ...
..: Everywhere.
..: ... anything you want to look is going to be a computer.
..: Yes.
CG: Well ... and some of this will take the format ... for example ... the dioramas that we ... I think you all saw a slide of ... those are having dialogues written ... such that you can go up and push the button ... and I'm going to pick a woman ... she's on her knees ... ....... metate y mano ... the horno's in the background there ... so that dialogue is between ... like ... Tia ... ....... ... and a little girl ... and they're talking about the metate or whatever ...... ... well then we can push and they'll have that dialogue and you'll have a choice of English or Spanish. Then there's like ... los Indios ...... Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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jeffe ....... ... and so you can push up and you see what jeffe's telling los Indios ... okay?
..: Right.
..: Yes.
CG: So ... that's one ... one style of interactive ... there are other ways to go and we're exploring those. But we don't want the older generation to be afraid ... because it's not what many of us grew with. So if you walked in and saw that diorama ... do you think you ... Mrs. Navarro ... would you play with that button?
VN: I think so ... (laughter)
CG: Would you stand there and poke a button for me?
(mixed conversation)
Sally: I just wanted to say ... we don't really have time for a real break but anytime somebody wants to go get a cup of coffee ... or go to the restroom ... please feel free.
..: Okay.
..: There's a lot things we have to learn now.
CG: Okay ... so for you it is more ........ ... this ...
..: Yeah ... because ....
(.... take a break)
CG: Because as we do public programs or ...
S: Speak real clearly .....
CG: ... as we do public programming ... we're looking for ways Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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to encourage the public to come to the museum and we were thinking perhaps on like Saturdays of having un escuelita ... and the kids or the ... it would be broadcast to the public ... they would come in and we would sit down and actually look at some of the books that were written ... first bilingual books ............ ... and we would again ... you know ... do a day in the life of this child who was in this escuelita ... and give the public to understand that ... quote ... unquote ... the regular schools were not something that was open to some students ... so ... Also the other hand though is ... escuelitas many times on the ranches were like the owners way of ... again ... giving education to the children of his farmhands if you would ... but it was a sort of segregated effort.
..: Uh-huh.
CG: So ... we're interested in the ... in finding what kinds of programs will best meet the needs of you ... the visitor ... when you come to us. Plus some of these things we want to have on a very regular basis. Well then ... let's keep going ... what about Tejano men, women or leaders ... or what ordinary people do you admire or feel are important to the Tejano history? Should they be portrayed in the exhibit and in what ways? For example ... if you came right now to San Antonio and looked at our histo-wall that Matt's talked to you about ... and David ... as you go across it on the end it ends with Lee Trevino Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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... 27 years ago ... .............. Flacco ... okay? ... Viki Carr is on her first husband ... Archbishop Flores was an Archbishop at that time ... so I mean ... obviously there are many, many, many people that we're not going to get on there ... but from here ... in the Lubbock area ... who are some of the heroes that you know? You know ... some of the people that have made a difference contributing to the community in Lubbock?
..: I would want to see Laro Cavazos ...
CG: Ah ... good ... okay.
..: ... president of ...
CG: Yes.
..: ... our former president of Texas Tech.
CG: Okay ... yes. And who went on the Washington?
..: Right.
CG: This Laro Cavazos ... right ... yes. That's good. He's come up one other time. I'm glad you brought him back up.
..: And I think that ... isn't his other brother ... that was a 3-star general for 4th US Army ...
S: Uh-huh.
..: ... out of Fort Hood? Am I correct on that?
S: I don't know.
..: Well ... I think he was. His brother was a 3-star general. And I think that Laro Cavazos had a lot of influence here over Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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West Texas ... for the Tejanos ... Mexicanos ... Hispanic ... to influence and show that ... Hey, you don't have to drag a cotton sack behind you no more.
S: Uh-huh.
CG: Good point. This ...
..: You can be a president of a big university.
CG: Good point. And this brings up something here ... do we want people to walk away from the exhibit feeling good? Do we want people to walk away feeling that there's so much more to do? What kind of feeling do we want our visitors to take away from an exhibit like this? I mean one of the things we hear is ... be positive. You know ... encourage the children ... that education is important. You can do it. What you just said. You know ... it doesn't matter that you're not ...
..: Yeah.
CG: ... you know ... real rich or whatever ... you ... you know ... with your own study ... with your ... corazon ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: Right.
CG: ... you can make your life.
..: I would say what you said ...... is to go through it and then let the young generation see that ... Hey, this is what we was ... and this is what we are now ... but this is what we can be in the future. And it's not all money ... it's all Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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ambitious ...
S: Power?
..: ... power ...
CG: Well ... with knowledge comes power.
..: Right.
CG: Empowerment. With that empowerment you can make decisions for yourself.
..: Right.
CG: What about women? Who's ... who is from Lubbock ... is a woman that's made a difference? in the local community that we might not know about. You know ... one of the unsung heroes we don't hear ... just because you don't make the newspaper? Are there any women ....... ?
..: Well ... there's several ladies there in Lubbock ... but as far as going ... real high ... would be ............. ... about the only one isn't it?
..: ............. Zepeda ......
..: Well ... there's Zepeda.
..: ...... Zepeda ......
..: They're both in the Mexican-American .............
CG: How active is LULAC? and MALDEF? and ....
..: LULAC is pretty active ... but not as active as they are down around Corpus and San Antone. But they do have ... LULACs ... Knights of Columbus ... Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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..: Yeah ... Knights of Columbus and LULAC ...
..: Yeah ... and the ... this COMO ............
CG: Yes ..... Yolanda Romero mentioned .......... How active is the church community in Lubbock? Whether it's Baptist ... Catholica? How active is the church community?
(mixed conversation)
..: ........
..: Very active.
..: Yeah ... they're real active.
..: ........ even ......
CG: In your community ... there in St. Petersburg ... Petersburg ... how active is ........?
(mixed conversation)
..: Yeah ... ....... pretty active ...........
CG: ... (Spanish) ......
..: ... (Spanish) ......
..: ... (Spanish) ......
CG: Alright. And again ... in what ways? Do you want to walk up and punch a button under somebody's picture and have Henry Cisneros tell you what Ms. Medlar's not his favorite person right now? (laughter) How do you want these ... how do we want these people talk to you the public? I mean .. I'm 46 ... I don't like to read little words on walls anymore ... my eyes ... my bifocals ... I have to do this ... (laughter) ... Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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so again ... you know ... all visitors to the museum need different things ... but how would you want to hear about these people that contributed? I mean ... do you want to read it ... do you want to hear it?
..: I think a lot of us would rather hear it.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
..: ...... we're missing one thing here ... the right to vote.
CG: Okay.
..: You know ... that's ... that's very important. ......... Tejano ... Americano. Those people need to learn that they need the rest to vote.
..: Uh-huh.
CG: Gee ... is your ESP on? because this is our Voter Registration person in the building right there. (laughter)
Alright. And again ... do we put that under community life?
..: Yes.
..: Yeah.
CG: Is that where we would put that? is that a theme that ............?
..: That's one of our main problems in this area ... with the Tejano. We can't get those people to register to vote.
CG: Okay. Why can't we get those people to register?
..: Okay ... I'll tell you why. Their excuse was ... they Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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didn't want to serve on a jury.
..: Yeah ... right.
Sally: Buy now that doesn't matter.
..: Right.
Sally: It's your driver's license.
..: It's the driver's license what they go by now.
.. It doesn't matter now ... but we still can't get those Tejanos or Mexicanos to register to vote. That's one of our biggest problems in this area ... especially the .........
..: The population of Texas is what?
..: .... 40 percent Mexican-Americans ... Tejanos ... Americanos.
CG: Well in San Antonio we're ... I know Phyllis said 50 but we're over 50 percent ... actually closer to about 62 percent in San Antonio at this point. State-wide probably 40 percent would not be unrealistic.
..: Right.
CG: Okay ... state-wide.
..: You would take on voting on a year that ... you know ... you could have thousands or millons of votes ... and you take a percentage of the vote and the Mexican-American people would not stand up to the rest of them because they do not want to get out and vote.
S: Yeah.Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
Abernathy, Texas
28
CG: And is it just a feeling of ... I don't matter?
..: Yes.
CG: I ... you know ... I could be voting ... but what's the difference? they're going to do what they want anyway.
..: No.
CG: Why do people not go out to vote?
..: What they say is ... my one vote doesn't count. They're mistaken.
CG: Okay.
..: They're very mistaken. The one vote will ... do count.
CG: And not to put you on the spot ... but when you hear someone say that ... do you turn to them and say ... but it does count?
..: Yes. I have.
CG: Even though he cancels her vote out everytime they go in ... (laughter) ... but ... I mean ... you know ... but no ... but do you make a point just to try to reinforce ...
..: Yes I do. Oh yeah.
CG: ... to that person that it does matter?
..: Yes.
CG: Do you hear the same feeling from your young who are just first time voters? Can look with excitement to voting?
..: Yes. Yes.
CG: And is it a feeling of power that they have? Or ... I mean ... what do you sense from that?Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
Abernathy, Texas
29
..: No ... I don't think so ... it's just that they say ... Well ... one vote ... my vote ... won't count. ............
..: Yes. ..........
..: That's one of the major problems that we have up here as far as Tejanos goes.
CG: Okay ... and then what would be your suggestion within this exhibit of making that point? How would we make that point? Or ... again ...
..: Well ... that's a good question. (laughter)
CG: Well ... I mean ... we're picking your brains for a reason ... we want it to reflect ............
..: It ..............
CG: Oh ... come on. (laughter)
S: Saturday.
CG: Sunday ... Matt ... Sunday. ..........
S: Oh ... is it Sunday?
..: When I go to ......... in the funeral home ........... how things are going ... funeral home ..............
CG: Okay ... then I walk into this museum ... personally I'd like to go into a little voter's booth ... draw the curtain and then have the inside become the exhibit ... I mean ... your voice talks to me ... or I get to push my vote ... or something like that. So again ... what format could we take?
..: Well ... you can use the format ... like ... okay you just Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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brought that little booth about voting ... you know ... go in there and push a button ... it says Vote ... question mark ... and then over here ... ....... Why do you vote? ... Because it's your constitutional rights. It don't matter who you are ... if you register to vote you can vote whoever you want.
CG: So ...... keypoint ... if you register ... so perhaps .......
Sally: Yes. Or you can use too ... along that line ... if when you go in there and you're moving the levers or whatever you're doing and a phrase can come up ... there are so many examples ... none of which I can quote ... of how few votes it took ... for example ... to put Hitler in power ...
..: Yes.
Sally: ... so few votes ... we're talking about 3 or 4 ... or something like that ... that put that man in power. There's a whole lot of statistics like that ... that ...
..: Well ... what's going on for example ... you could put Haiti ... what's going on there.
..: Haiti.
Sally: Yeah.
..: Uh-huh.
..: I mean ... how many people there voting?
CG: See ... we could be interactive that way.
..: The people in Haiti wasn't voting. They were just Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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overthrown. But I think a lot of the young people ... Tejanos and Mexican-American people ... they're to a point that ... some of them are afraid to vote because he takes off from work here to go vote ... and you're a farmer out here ... lost ... you know ... his bread ... and yet he has to vote.
Sally: Yeah.
..: You know ... even the ....... he might just cut you $25 because you voted against the one he was backing.
CG: There's still that sort of pressure being exhibited?
..: It's politics isn't it? (laughter)
CG: Well ... I mean ... I come from the city and my world you know is so different from the urban area and ...
..: It's not any different ... when it's coming to put somebody in power it's not any different.
CG: Okay ... that's what I wanted to hear.
..: It's not any different ... it's not any different out in the rurals than it is in Houston.
CG: Okay. Well ... I just didn't want to presume that my world translated until I heard you say that.
..: (laughter) No ... you see ... I give money to Tom over here ... but I don't give any to Jerry and he's going to win because he's getting some money underneath the table.
..: Okay.
..: You know. But it's politics is what it is. It's just Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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... And a lot of people on this ....... don't understand politics ...
..: Uh-huh.
CG: So perhaps should we give consideration to more contemporary issues? I mean keeping the historical perspective but should we look at whether it's at the community life section or wherever but should we spend more time on what is happening now ... the last 25 years or so ... the changes that have occurred?
..: I would say yes. Educated ...... yes.
..: Yes.
CG: Matt? .........
S: Here's a good question ... what are the most important events in Tejano history? And how should they be acknowledged in the exhibit?
CG: Yeah ... for example ... everybody thinks of John Wayne and the Alamo ... okay ... we know that is Hollywood's version ... but that's obviously not the only Tejano event or Mexican event ... whatever word we want to use ... okay ... so in history as you remember it ... not that you lived it ... okay ... but as you remember what you were taught ... what is important? Do we need to have a picture of ... you know ... Chitlan ... Cortez meeting Montezuma?
..: No. I think we move to up to ... to this closer era that Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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we live now ... like when you see ... what's his name? Chavez ...
CG: Chavez.
..: ... that let the labor union in in California. Wasn't it Chavez?
CG: Uh-huh.
S: Cesar Chavez.
Sally: ....... Texans ......
..: That's true.
..: He was from Texas?
CG: No ... he's not Texan-native ... but we do have Texan labor leaders that we could sort of work with.
..: But it's still related to the Tejano.
..: .........
..: Because a lot of these people that were working in the California area were from the Valley of Texas ... if you look into it. Like a lot of the Tejanos from McAllen ... they went all the way as far as Colorado ... Oregon ... Washington ... to pick potatoes ... .......... ...
CG: Strawberries.
..: So you talk about Tejanos ... yes Tejanos in Texas ... but they've been ... you know ....
CG: Well that's sort of ....
..: ... in the big movements of the United States .......Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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CG: So one then ... I think we're coming back up ... I'm listening or hearing correctly ... is that bracero program again?
..: Correct.
..: Yes.
Sally: It's raising its head right now.
CG: So for you that's an important event in Tejano history?
..: Oh yes.
CG: What else? Senora? Por favor.
..: Just like he was saying ... I used to farm up here just north of Abernathy ... back in the '50s ... late '60s ... right next to the highway ... in the months of February ... March and April ... you could see the trucks going with people ... up north ... brought out of the state of Washington ... migrant workers ... going up north. I mean ... in one day you could count 15 ... 20 trucks loaded with people ... migrant workers ... going up north. ...........
..: ....... doing work up there.
..: .......... Texas work culture ........ it not only stayed in the state of Texas ...
..: Unh-huh.
..: ... okay ... you can't say that.
CG: No ... right ... Michigan ... Minnesota ... Chicago ...
..: Oh ... yeah ... Washington ... Idaho ...Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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CG: ... travelled ... yeah ... sure.
..: I wouldn't say as far as back the other way is Mississippi ... Kentucky ... Philadelphia ... back ... I doubt it ... but from St. Louis down toward Texas and back the other way ... yes ... but over East ...
..: No.
CG: Well ... it's ........
..: Si ... Right.
..: .........
CG: But no other historical events jump out at you that you would feel important? I mean ... and that's not to put you on the spot ... you know ... the point is that it's history which we tend to forget that when you walk into a museum 95 percent is devoted to you men ... ladies, we had a significant ........ (mixed conversation and laughter) ... okay ... the children contributed obviously ... so those are some of the things that we want to balance out too ... is not just ... not to belittle one contribution but better to equalize if you would ... or give the gratitude that we should feel to others. Well ... you know ... stew on that a little bit. Now ... let's throw another one at you ... what should the message of the exhibit be? This is what I was kind of ........ a minute ago .......... do we want you to walk away feeling ... Wow ... those were some dynamite people. ........... the musica ... the language ... Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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you know ... comida tambien. For example ... I teach a great deal about yerba medicinales ... in my neighborhood I'm considered a curandera ... ............. blanca ... (laughter) ... ....... okay ... so do we include ... right now we have a section on Don Pedro ......... ...
..: Yes ... that's ...
CG: ... do we want ... at least some small portion that acknowledges that within ................ de Tejano ...
..: I would think so.
CG: ... some people feel comfortable turning to a curandera ...
..: Yeah.
CG: ... or do we want to ignore it?
..: No ... you can't.
..: No.
CG: Because we hear both sides.
..: No ... you can't. Because the Mexican-American race or Tejano ............. ... the belief of ojo ...
CG: Uh-huh.
..: ... you've heard that?
CG: Uh-huh.
..: ... is real strong. They say ... ... (Spanish) ..... ... .... (Spanish) ...... ... with an egg and prayers ...
..: Uh-huh.Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
Abernathy, Texas
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..: ... and now I ... my wife ....... strong disbelief of ........... ... She doesn't believe it. Til 14 years ago? ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... I wound up in the hospital ... 45 days ... and the doctors at Methodist .... West Texas ... they never diagnosed what it was. This man came off the street ... curandero ... gave her some herbs and ...
..: ...........
..: ... and he said once he gets out of the hospital he ain't coming back in. And 3 days later I was out of the hospital ... and I haven't been back in.
..: Um.
S: Um.
..: But he didn't believe it and he don't believe an awful lot of things. Because he's never had a mom ...
..: I didn't. I didn't.
..: ... to teach him faith like that. But my mom taught us. But we don't ............
CG: But for us in this room ... the six of you feel that that is at least something we should address?
..: Yes.
CG: Somehow.
..: Curandero. Yes.
..: Uh-huh.Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
Abernathy, Texas
38
CG: Not necessarily what format yet ... but yet it is a part of the culture that should be ...
..: Yes ... important part of the culture ...
..: Yes.
..: Yes.
..: ... important part of the Mexican culture. Definitely.
CG: Again ... we all chose to believe and follow individually ... but that as a culture it is perhaps an important one.
..: Uh-huh.
..: I would think so.
CG: Okay. Well ... then again ... what message ... how do you want to feel, Mrs. Navarro, when you walk away? Mr. Navarro? ... On this exhibit that you walk into in a few year? Do you want to away feeling proud?
MN: ......... I want to walk away feeling good.
CG: Okay.
VN: Me too.
MN: See ... because I ............ I come over here and I really want to come and I really work ............ I wanted to leave something good in his home ... see ... because ...... really we won't change this world ... we have to be loved ... one each other.
VN: Uh-huh.
MN: Definitely a main thing ... we never can change nothing Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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without love ... we've got to have the love for each other. See ... so ... .........
CG: Well ... this is one thing that we're looking at trying to share and that is ... tolerance ... I mean ... that our museum has always celebrated the diversity ... the differences of the cultures that made Texas. But we also stress the ............ ... he gets hungry ... I get hungry ... you need a house ... I need a house ... clothing ... those are things that draw us together ... but depending on where we accidently get born ... our language is a little different ...
VN: Uh-huh.
MN: Uh-huh.
CG: ... or the foods that we do eat are a little different ... but that until we learn to accept ...
MN: Uh-huh.
CG: ... ourselves ...
VN: Uh-huh.
CG: ... both the differences and the likenesses ... then as our global village ... perhaps we're not going to survive.
MN: Right.
VN: Uh-huh.
CG: (laughter) So this is good. So again you want to walk away feeling good?
MN: And another thing you see ... I ... when I was small I Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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went to school ... I didn't learn much ... but I really ........ ... I learn all these kids ... I wish you could learn them because the day that we go forth the kids .......... school ... graduate you see ... I just hope for the kids ... to go forth from school ...............
CG: Education.
Sally: I really wish that the influence ... that we had more things on the floor for kids to understand and maybe if you were to ... if you had some thoughts on ... what kinds of games did you play that might be good to have out there ... that maybe other children could participate in ... or that kind ... entertainment kinds of things that would be a good way to tie in so that other people could say ... Oh, yes, I played a game that was almost like that ... you know. Because we all have games.
..: Did you ever play the game of rolling the tire?
Sally: Roll the ... yeah.
(laughter)
..: See I was from Pittsburg. ..........
Sally: I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania ... (laughter) We have about 5 more minutes and we all need to meet in the ...............
(mixed conversation)
..: ........ marbles? Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
Abernathy, Texas
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(mixed conversation)
..: Did you draw a circle?
..: Yes.
..: Did you draw a circle when you did your marbles?
..: Yes.
..: Uh-huh.
..: What did you call the biggest marble?
..: ............
(laughter) (mixed conversation)
..: He's to blame. (laughter)
..: ..........
..: Going back on that ... the people ... Tejanos that made a difference ... Benivedes would be a good one ... ........ Benivedes.
S: Okay.
CG: Okay.
..: In fact he's on the wall ... right ... to reflect the ... there's a song about ....... (Spanish) ........
..: ...... (Spanish) ......
..: .......... (laughter) ...... Americanos ...........
CG: ....... corrido?
(mixed conversation ... Spanish ...)
..: ... and that would be one ............ Laro Cavazos ... and all of them.Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
Abernathy, Texas
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CG: Yeah.
..: ...........
..: .......... and music like that to go with whatever you're presenting would be ... you know ... kind of background ...
CG: Okay ... so you would put the two together?
..: Yes.
..: I would put the ... whatever you're going to present and then your music as a background to go with the ........
S: That's a good .......
..: You know ... like you see on TV ... they're presenting or narrating ... but you hear the music in the back ... and that gets your attention at the same time that you're listening and .............
CG: Well, Matt, do you want to ... since we're so limited on our time and I sort of took over there for a minute ... any thing in particular that you really wanted ... .......?
S: Yeah ... one more question that's specific to this group ... because you all live so far away ... are there programs that we could do in conjunction with the exhibit for people who live ... you know ... like far ... too far from the Institute to get to it easily?
..: Okay ... your exhibit is going to have pictures of factories and stuff like that?
S: Yes.Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
Abernathy, Texas
43
..: I think you need ....... picture of a gin ... picture of people picking cotton ...
(laughter)
..: Yes.
(laughter and mixed conversation)
..: I'm serious.
..: You know people ... you have a mural of 5 or 6 or 7 people ... you know ... ............... ... pulling the cotton sack here ...
CG: Well, this is a good time because we have ... well in one area we have the cotton bale that we were talking about earlier ... and we have different parts of the floor that talk about King Cotton in the history of Texas ...
..: Yes.
CG: ... okay ... so this is another area to tie it in.
..: Right.
CG: Yeah ... that just reinforces that many groups of people did this ...
..: ...... King Cotton ... you talk about South Texas.
CG: Right. But what I'm saying is the theme cotton ...
..: Yeah.
CG: ... and the fact there ... okay ... because we do have towsacks on the exhibit floor that we'll put kids that weight a 100 pounds on and then ask the other kids to pull 'em. Just Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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so they can get a feel of what a 100 pounds ...
(laughter) ... a 100 pounds is a 100 pounds. Right?
..: Yeah.
..: Uh-huh.
CG: But I mean ...
..: No ... a 100 pounds early in the morning is ....
CG: Yeah.
(laughter and mixed conversation)
..: ... a 100 pounds becomes ........ in the afternoon.
..: You know ... none of the kids even know what ........ is.
CG: Yes.
..: Not little kids ... the big kids.
CG: Okay.
..: Yeah ... I've been asking.
..: There are a lot of them don't know what cotton is.
(laughter)
..: And not corn either ... because I have sister ... she didn't know what ... what this .........
CG: .......... ?
..: Unh-huh. And then one day she came and we took her to the fields ... I mean ... we told her ... You're going to cut this and this and this. And she was ... Why do we have to cut .....? And she was cutting the crops because she thought she was ... Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
Abernathy, Texas
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..: ...........
..: ... You're not going to cut the crops ... you're going to cut the weeds.
(laughter)
..: Um .... it's hard. I mean she just worked 3 hours or so .......
(laughter)
CG: Now what are we asking ... are these programs that we would send out to the community? I'm not sure on that myself here. Well ... okay ... is that what we're looking at or ... ?
..: I think the programs ........... send out to get feedback ... is that what you want ... far distance ... is that what you want?
S: Yeah ... yeah ... how can we bring the Institute ... this information on the exhibit floor ... you know ... out to the outer regions of Texas?
CG: Is this like the travelling exhibits? Is that .........?
S: Like travelling exhibits.
CG: That ... by that what we mean is that we put together ... Matt's department designs ... takes bits and pieces of large exhibits and puts them on things that can either be hung on walls ... or free-standing like in a mall or something ... and that way again as we get bits of the information from a major exhibit to you ... the public ... because it's not as easy for Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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you to drive ... you know ... 3 400 miles ...
..: Uh-huh.
CG: ... so ...
S: Also I've got organizations here that do the same thing that ... similar things ... that we do at the Institute in San Antonio ... how could we link up with those ... with those organizations that are local ... in order to work with them and communicate better ... so that there's a line of communication between things that we're doing in San Antonio ... with the exhibits on the Hispanics or the Tejanos ... and things that you all down here in Lubbock are trying to do?
..: ......
S: For instance ... go ahead ...
..: You brought up that ...... you can interlink with either the Knights of Columbus or the LULACs ... of say Lubbock ... and ....... communications ...
S: Uh-huh.
..: ... and work together like that ... I mean ... that would be the only way ... for as a cultural group ... I don't know if there's one in Lubbock or not. Unless you might check with Texas Tech.
CG: That's a good point.
..: That is.
CG: Texas Museum program .......Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
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(mixed conversation)
..: ........ work in conjunction with them on it.
..: Yeah.
..: Yeah ... I think ........
..: Yeah.
CG: Well then ... with our time being so short ... is there anything that we've not said today ... that you would want just to share? Even it has nothing to do with what we've discussed so far? Just a feeling that's ... you know ... now that I'm here that I understand a little better why you invited me ... you know ... why? Anything?
..: I'm sure ............
CG: Well ... and you do know ... take a blank piece of paper ... and anything that comes to mind jot it down and if nothing else give it to the .............. and they'll get it back to us ... or we will leave our address ... the brochures and stuff ... you know ... feel free ... if you think of something tomorrow ... yes.
..: .......... Cinco de Mayo and all those festivals that we ... we have ....
CG: But are they new? In the last ... say 20 years or so? I mean ... have you been doing this .....
..: No.
(mixed conversation)Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
Abernathy, Texas
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..: They're getting more organized .........
(mixed conversation)
..: ... more money now than it used to be.
..: Right. Lubbock's not politics anymore as far as the youngest ...........
CG: Uh-huh.
..: And it's a lot more of politics in it than it used to be.
..: Yeah.
..: Use to ... you know ... they'd say that .... (Spanish) .........
..: Yes.
..: ... a slave and a ......... ... and you'd be dancing out on a dirt ..........
(mixed conversation)
..: They used to have them in Pittsburg.
(mixed conversation)
..: And I'm not exaggerating ...
CG: No.
..: ... I mean ... ........ to dances out there on ...... we'd have dances out here ... you know where 54 is on Sandoval? ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... music out there ... ............. and they would be dancing out there ... you'd have dirt up to here ... (laughter) ...Matt Soloria / Cindi Gonzales
Abernathy, Texas
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CG: ..... that would be great pictures ... really that would. ...........
(mixed conversation)
..: You'd be surprised ... ...... good looking girls up there.
(laughter and mixed conversation)
Sally: I brought the hook.
(laughter)
Sally: On stage when ... the old vaudevillian days ... when the guy was on and he wasn't getting any applause or laughter ...
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.