THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
SUBJECT: Tejano Community Advisory Meeting
DATE: 1 May 1993
PLACE: Institute of Texan Cultures
MODERATOR: Laurie Gudzikowski
LG: ... get started. The reason that we want to do this is so that we can ... a lot of the input that we get on the exhibit comes from academics and we'd like to get some from people who are more ordinary people. It's a different focus. We put together a list of questions, I know Junior passed them all out so perhaps you've all seen them. The first question is: What do you like about ITC's Spanish-Mexican exhibit as it presently exists? And what don't you like? Gloria has been looking at it for years and years and years. Or not looking at for years and years and years.
Gloria: Right!
LG: ... as the case may be. Do you have something to ... or ...
Gloria: I think as I walked in - the walls, I think, are kind of dreary. And I like .... maybe I ought to stick with what I don't like. I think the fountain is OK, but there's nothing to relate to it.
LG: Uh-huh.Gloria: We didn't have a fountain in my town. And when we'd go to Mexico we'd see fountains but other than that it doesn't mean ... Another thing, there's nothing to go along with it in this ... I think there needs to be something to go with that. I like to read about the people on the History Walls, I like ... right now I went to see what was down there today, I hadn't seen ... It had .... and I liked that idea because .... and I identify with that because we had curanderos in our neighborhood and we were taken to curanderos all the time so that there's some significance to me. Putting ... I'm a little mixed up with the Spanish and the Mexicans ...
LG: Jerry's idea of ... on doing that was that even though the political ... politically it changed from being Spanish to being Mexican at the time of the Revolution, it was still the same people who were there, to a large extent, in Texas, there was still the same people, even though the ... politically it went from Spanish to being Mexican, the people were still the same people. They had ...
Gloria: But as a child I don't remember that.
LG: ... were a common entity.
Gloria: We didn't have any Spaniards in my town, so that part I can't identify with. I'm explaining what I like and don't like about the exhibit.Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 3
LG: The question is, what you like and don't like about our current Spanish-Mexican exhibit? Carmella, you have a real fresh view of it 'cause you're new at the Institute, so ..
Carmella: Yeah, well, I had a problem with the Mexican and Spanish seeming like its one and the same. Like, specifically the Mexican Wall, ...
LG: Uh-huh.
Carmella: ... it's like we have ... it starts with the Aztecs and Mayans and then it goes into Colonial-Texas history with the Mexicans that are here and then all of a sudden it's like Vikki Carr and to me those are Mexican-Americans and that's very different from what is Mexican.
LG: Uh-huh.
Carmella: And so I think that the distinction has to be made.
LG: Arthur, you've had a long experience with our History Walls from even making them to ... perhaps you even read them on occasions, but ...
Arthur: Well, the only thing, you know, that I really had, you know, that always bothered me, was that, you know, there was no Spanish text, you know, like translate ...
LG: Spanish language. Yeah. One of our plans for the exhibit is that it will have ...Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 4
Arthur: Because I think in San Antonio we get a lot of people coming from Mexico, you know. You see them all over ... in every mall ... everybody goes, because ... I don't like malls or anything like that but when I do, that's all I hear, talking in Spanish, you know. I think that's one of the things ....
LG: That's part of the ...
Arthur: ....
LG: ... the plan is to make this exhibit bilingual, yeah. Because I think that's important too.
..: Perhaps also, I don't know how expensive, but to have at least some of those things ... walk-arounds ...
LG: Oh, ...
..: ... French and Norwegians ...
LG: ... other languages, because we do get people from other countries who are ... don't speak English at all.
..: It's not uncommon.
LG: Okay, the next question is: What do you want people to know about your culture and history? Carmella, you want to start?
Carmella: Well, I know that the introductory speech to ... lecturer ... you've been told in your family you have to learn your own history through your own people, that a lot Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 5
of the stories that I heard were, you know, some of my relatives, some of them are relatives through marriage, were Apaches and Commanches, Mestizos, and that there was a lot of persecution with the Texas Rangers.
LG: Uh-huh.
Carmella: And I haven't really looked at ... throughout the whole exhibit floor, but I would wonder if there's going to be any kind of mention as far as the history of oppression and the way ... we were told our history was ... well, in my family, it was ... it was kinda like, you know, it was black and white, you know. We were persecuted by the Texas Rangers and by the law, you know, the law was not really the law, it was very immoral. And yet we kept with our religious standards and we had the morality. And so, I mean that that's a real biased point of view, but, you know, it's kinda interesting as far as, you know, that the religion and the cultural ethics, were what we were dichotomized against, what was supposedly the law of Texas. And I'd be interested to see the other side of, you know, the history of the Texas Rangers. But I don't know if that would be a place in the political part of the Tejano Exhibit or where that would exactly fit it. But ...Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 6
Arthur: Yes, that was. When Texas became ... Alamo ... I mean, you know, there was people who had nothing to do with the conflict .... and they had land, especially in South Texas, and that automatically that land was taken away from them. ... Mexico lost the war or whatever, and I didn't think that was right. I mean, you know, my father used to tell me that, my grandfather used to tell me that .... it really, .... And I think there's still a case or something ... still going through court, but I don't think ... amounts to anything ... it's so long and stuff like that. But, she's right, I think there was a lot of persecution ....
LG: I think there was probably a lot of persecution and I think that conflict is something that we have avoided in the past but probably it's time to get ... to face it ... discuss it as being a part of the past. Or the present.
Gloria: I think what I would like to see and I don't know how you could do this, is that I think the Mexican people are very supportive of each other and they are very family-oriented. I know that's one thing that I liked about my family is that we help each other out all the time and as kids you help your neighbor out and this sense of helping other people ... giving ... is ... I don't know how you could put that on an exhibit. But if you could demonstrate Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 7
that ... I think that we are a family, I mean, you know, .... helps Mexicano all the time ...
Arthur: That was ...
Gloria: ....
Arthur: ... and still is Mexican-American culture. Like I have cousins, thank goodness, I come from a large family myself. With my parents, we were fifteen.
LG: Wow!
Arthur: Okay. I've got seven sisters and I've got five brothers, okay. But, you know, my dad always supported us and stuff like that, but I have cousins that grew up with aunts and uncles of theirs, you know, aside from their parents, because at that time they couldn't afford too many kids ... and they had aunts and uncles that weren't ... they couldn't have any children and they would take ...
Gloria: Like an extended family, taking ... in. I don't see that that's happening like in my family.
LG: You mean your family ... your children?
Gloria: Right. Right. I think that that has broken away because the family is not what it used to be. That's what I remember as a kid, that that unit was very important to me and I felt secure and comfortable and I knew that everything was okay because somebody was going to help you out. Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 8
(laughter) I don't know how you could put that in the exhibit.
LG: Well, I think that again is part of the community and identity of the two basic ... I think that's ... the family is probably rooted in the community.
Gloria: Yeah. And in values I think that that's the way we were brought up with high standards and values and even though you were poor you still, you know, did not steal, you didn't cheat, you didn't lie, doesn't matter if you didn't have no money!
Carmella: Yeah. Another thing was the role women. We've mentioned that before. 'Cause, you know, Kelly Air Force Base is so important to this area and the military bases and a lot of the women were working there during World War II, that's what my grandmother did. She helped build airplane engines and things like that, 'cause all the men were off to war and because it's such a large Mexican-American population a lot of the women went in there to help support their families while the men were away. I mean, I'd like to see pictures of those women dressed up in their uniforms working on the planes. You know, just ...
..: ...Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 9
Carmella: I guess that more ... closer contemporary, I mean, it's not really ...
LG: Well, that's part of history, too.
Carmella: Uh-huh.
LG: Just out of curiosity, what did your grandmother do when the war was over? Did she go back home or did she continue working here?
Carmella: No. Well, actually, inbetween ... before that, I guess, was prohibition, she was ... she moonshined, she made moonshine ... because her husband was killed.
LG: Uh-huh.
Carmella: And she re-married and he left her, so ... but she ended up like supporting her kids, I guess, in the 60s and after that, selling Avon. She was like the local Avon lady, no one else was doing it. So she was just the sales ....
..: ...
Carmella: ... six kids, she supported six kids doing that.
LG: She sounds like ...
Arthur: There was also a Avon lady in our neighborhood. (laughter)
LG: Maybe that was her grandmother!
Carmella: Probably! Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 10
LG: Can you can think of some specific events for topics that should be included in the exhibit? We've already talked about the Alamo as being ... and the Texas war for independence as being a specific event. Can you think of others? Something else?
Carmella: Well, there was something about the Texas war for independence is that we always jokingly called it and I saw it in a history book actually that it was seen from the Mexican point of view ... was called the North American Invasion. And now that would be kind of interesting to put in parenthesis, you know, because it's point of view. They came in following Mexican law and then decided to break the law and go for their independence and so to the Texans its like it's the war for independence, but to Mexico it was an invasion and a breaking of their laws and I guess, a coup of sorts. It would be interesting to see both points of view on that one.
Arthur: I think a couple of months ago I went to see this play at the Guadalupe Cultural ... Theater ... whatever it is ... Cultural Arts ... and it was called "La Frontera." But it was, you know, not so much as to like ... "frontera" means like the border, okay. The border ... say ... when I say "frontera" you know, when I heard it, the border betweenLaurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 11
Mexico and the United States, okay. But, actually, it had nothing to do with it. It was nowadays.
LG: Uh-huh.
Arthur: It was like this Spanish family that moved to the East Side ... town San Antonio and how at first, I don't know what they like to be called now, black or colored, or whatever, people there ... there was static there ... but after they started getting acquainted, getting to know each other, finding that they did have a lot of things in common, a lot in common and stuff like that, and one thing in particular made me laugh there ... that they had two teen-aged girls, one was Spanish side, one was black side. And the black girl told the Spanish girl, "Oh, I like Chicanos." ... something like that. And the girl said, "Don't call me Chicano. I don't like the word Chicano." And then she said, "Well, I like Hispanics." And she said, "Don't even call me that! I hate anything with the word 'panic' in it!" (laughter) Anyway, like, I have this brother-in-law, and to me he's always been ... since I met him ... and it reminded me of him because he was born and raised on the east side of town. And he never talked Spanish, you know. But one time I asked him, "What are you, Rich?" His name isLaurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 12
Arrellano, that's Spanish. And he says, "I'm an American of Mexican descent."
LG: What would you call yourself? What do you call yourself?
Arthur: I would call myself a Mexican-American.
LG: Mexican-American. How about you?
Carmella: Mexican-American. But I've gone through several different name changes! (laughter)
LG: Gloria?
Gloria: I would have to say Mexican-American. I've gone through several, too. That's the one that I feel comfortable ... We used to be Latin-Americans when I was younger and then we went to Mexican-American. I never could catch on to Chicano, I just ...
Arthur: That was in the 60s, early 70s ...
LG: Too young!
Arthur: ... Chicanos came along.
LG: Baby! (laughter)
Carmella: Out of curiosity, are you from San Antonio?
Gloria: No, I'm not. I'm from South Texas.
Carmella. Okay.
LG: Where in Texas?
Gloria: Karnes City.Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 13
LG: In what?
Gloria: Karnes City.
LG: Karnes City.
Gloria: Yeah. In an area where it was very distinctive where the Mexicans lived and where the Anglos lived and where the blacks lived. I mean, when you say, "across the railroad tracks," it's ....
LG: ....
Gloria: ... all the Anglos lived there and then the Hispanics lived on the other side of the tracks. And then, the road stopped being paved and then the dirt roads is where the black people lived.
Carmella: Wow!
LG: So there was definitely a real hierarchy ...
Gloria: Oh, yeah, definitely.
Arthur: I was born and raised here in San Antonio. I'll probably die here, too!
LG: Not for a long time!
Arthur: But I've gone to New Mexico, man, it's pretty out there.
LG: Yeah, it is.
Arthur: Especially ...... San Fe or Taos.
LG: And you're a San Antonian also? Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 14
Carmella: Yes. Born and raised here.
LG: But have done some travelling also.
Carmella: Yeah.
LG: The next question is: How has Tejano culture changed over time? What's changed from when you were a little girl? We've talked about that a little bit already, talked about family ties and ...... do you think there are other changes from when you were a kid? Or what your grandmother tells you?
Arthur: Okay, to me, the way change, why culture change ... it's because of the environment ...
LG: Uh-huh.
..: You have to stay up with it.
Arthur: See, if you take somebody us ... we go up north and live up north ... like a lot of families did ... I went one time with an uncle of mine to pick cherries and tomatoes in Wisconsin or Illinois, somewhere up there, I was only about 10, 11 years old. Mainly I went because .... I just went along ... and some of my relatives stayed up there, and now their sons and daughters, they come down here and they don't know a word of Spanish ...
Gloria: That's what I was gonna have to say, in my home we grew up speaking Spanish at home. You didn't speak anythingLaurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 15
but Spanish. So when I went to school I didn't know English and that held me back. In retrospect, I say, well, this is not going to happen to my kids, so I taught them English. Of course, now, they don't have very good Spanish.
..: Speaking.
Gloria: Because of it and it's a detriment and I really regret that I did that. But we don't speak Spanish at my house. My house ...
LG: How about your house? Do you speak Spanish at your house? I don't know if you have children ...
Arthur: At my mother's house we still do! (laughter) At my house, okay, like when I got married my wife didn't speak Spanish, even though the whole family ... Mexican-American, too. Somehow or another their mother or their dad, they ... English at home or something, because ...
Gloria: Because if you were going to get ahead in life, you had to speak English to stay ahead.
Arthur: No, no, it's like before when I was going to school, we couldn't speak Spanish. We'd get in trouble if we speak Spanish.
Gloria: Right.
LG: How about you, Carmella, do you speak Spanish?Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 16
Carmella: I do, but it's because I took it in high school and college.
LG: Not because you grew up with it.
Carmella: No, it was a real issue with my parents, because my father's from Mexico and my mother is Mexican-American and they didn't want us speaking Spanish because ... I grew up on the North Side and at that time there was like a handful of Mexicans there. And there was just no way I would survive ...
LG: Uh-huh.
Carmella: ... if I had an accent, even the slightest, and so they said, when you're ready to learn it, your English is good, then you can go ahead and take the language ...
LG: I'm sorry ... I interrupted you.
Arthur: Oh, that's okay. I was raised on the West Side of town and everything was .... we didn't learn English until we go to school ..... they called it then ...
Gloria: We called it zero grades. When you moved to the next one, you were still in the first grade!
Arthur: ....
Gloria: We thought that was kind of ironic because they didn't want you speaking Spanish. But I remember being in the first grade they would come and get me to translate for Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 17
the first graders and later in life I used to think, "Those hypocrites!"
Carmella: Yeah.
Gloria: Come in here and teach these other kids. I was in the first grade and I thought ... well, we went through that all through ...
Arthur: But you see, things have changed, now its ... they have to have bilingual education in elementary school.
LG: Yeah.
Arthur: When I was going to school, we would get in trouble speaking Spanish, particularly in class. I mean, if we were speaking out there, talking on the playground or something, if they didn't catch us, that was fine, but in the classroom we had to .... quiet in school.
Gloria: Not me. (laughter) I get in trouble all the time.
LG: Hard to believe.
Gloria: I really resented it.
Arthur: It has changed ...
Gloria: I would say, I would say something in Spanish and ... you need to go outside ... and I would. Then I would come back in, I was just being ..... (laughter)Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 18
LG: Another question, and this one is a good one to ask while Gloria is still here - How is Tejano culture and history different in Texas towns and cities and regions? And since you come from a small town ... as opposed to two city people ... do you have different views of the culture and history? Do you have a different view of Tejano culture and history because you come from a town rather than a city, and almost a different region?
Gloria: Oh, definitely, because ... why, I think that I do. Growing up we had social groups, even within the Hispanics, and there were people who worked in offices and there were people who didn't work in offices ... who worked in fields ... that's where I came from. And then there are groups in there that you might consider gang members and that's the group I associated with! (laughter) And when I think about it that's probably why I get along with a lot of people. Because I do identify with that ... I could go either way ... with the people and I understand their dilemma and their problems a lot of them were uneducated ... the people that were in the gangs. I was in school and this is how I made money. I would pick out .... and then was able to get a job in an office, I mean, in a deli to where I could identify with all the steps that people were going Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 19
through. Some never got out of that. And it was ... those were the ones that would get in trouble. So I see that here but they don't seem to have levels ... I don't think ... do ... too many levels ...
LG: What about growing up in the city? Do you think you have different view of the culture because you came from .... ?
Arthur: It's basically the same. You grew up in Karnes City, that was a small town. But like us, the West Side, that was considered like a little town, too. We never ... I never did, you know, like, I gave that lady in the fifth, sixth grade, that I ... interacted with ... in my neighborhood our school was all Mexican-American. There was about two, three, maybe, you could count them on one hand, ... I never ... that's one thing ... one time at church ... we had ... home ranch ... and it was an adult workshop and one of the questions there - When was the first time you experienced racial prejudice? A lot of people say when they were little, stuff like that, me, I didn't think .... like when we grew up ... just Mexican-Americans. (background noises)
LG: Do you still live in the West Side?
Arthur: No, ma'am.Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 20
(laughter)
LG: I was curious as to whether things were the same now as then, that's why I asked.
Arthur: Okay. Now that I live ... I don't think you'd consider ... I think that's inner Southside of town, I think you'd say. It's not Southside, ...
LG: Whatever that means. (laughter)
Arthur: Anyway, like you asked me a while ago if we speak Spanish at the house, my wife and I don't speak Spanish and then some people were starting to move into the neighborhood because that neighborhood is an old neighborhood, young people are moving in, and re-building, which I like, and refurbishing the old house and stuff like that. And then, I noticed that some people that were moving in they have children about my son's ... my boy's age and I noticed they were Spanish people, Mexicans. I don't know whether they are Mexicans from Mexico or they just used to speaking Spanish all the time. And I told myself, hey, talk to him, ... teach you ... if I try to tell him anything ... tell 'em bad words or something and I don't want him to learn that! (laughter) But to me, you know, ...
LG: The problems of parenthood.Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 21
Arthur: ... I mean, ... always respected me ... people and stuff like that. But I'm proud of them even though ... they can't understand Spanish, but they won't speak any if they don't have to.
LG: How about you, Carmella? You grew up in kind of ... you said a neighborhood that was non-Hispanic?
Carmella: Yeah.
LG: What kind of ...
Carmella: Well, I'd spend my week-ends at my grandmother's house which is on the West Side. I have cousins all over the city. I think, after you've been here, you'll probably agree with me that ...
Arthur: (laughter) What makes you think so! I'm only 45 ... (laughter)
Carmella: I've been here many years, my whole life! The West Side Mexicans, South Side Mexicans, North Side Mexicans, and East Side Mexicans - they're all different culture groups - they're totally different! Even the way they talk is different. So I'm sure we're totally different from someone from Karnes City or Laredo or Cuero, anywhere. It's going to change, even within San Antonio things are very different. I think for me, I guess, you have to define yourself because everyone let's you know you're different Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 22
when you're the only little raisin in the whole school. (laughter) You don't understand why everyone treats you differently, whether it's kind of out of curiosity or what, you have to find out through your parents. My parents finally sat down and told me why I was being treated differently. You don't realize it at all. Until a few years ago, sometime in college, just like a lightbulb, it went off. You know, my best friends in kindergarten, there was a Philippine boy and a Black girl, and it was the three of us, and we were the only minorities in the whole school. And I started thinking, was it because we sensed that we were different or was it out of necessity? Like, no one else would play with us. So I really don't know what the reason was ... it's kind of ...
Gloria: Interesting.
Carmella: ... very coincidental or whatever that we ended up being a very close-knit group. I think it's when you have North Side which was .... sterilized as opposed to the West Side ... my grandmother's house is just like a fantasy culture for me because she would have all the rose bushes and the pecans trees and the chickens and the rabbits ...
Arthur: Oh, I don't have any chickens or rabbits ...
Carmella: No, she had all those kinds of ...Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 23
Arthur: ... pecan trees ...
Carmella: It was really wonderful to get away and go down there. And play ... you know, you always feel out of place, it wasn't really the same as all my cousins who'd stayed on the West Side, it wasn't like the other kids I grew up with, so you know, the in-betweener, always the outsider. So, I don't know, that's something to be considered, too. I guess as far as the Tejano groups are different, social levels or areas that you're from, it'll change how you see yourself.
Arthur: It's the environment, that's what I say.
Carmella: Yeah.
Arthur: 'Cause I'm sure there are lots of Tejanos that live on the North Side, Northeast Side, Northwest Side, that they, I mean, here's the South Side, you know, people ... they have ... what do you call those altars and stuff like that? ... they have them outside, you know, out in the yard, you know, they ... Virgins, you know, and stuff like that and you know, ...
LG: Shrines.
Arthur: Shrines. And I'll bet you that there's a lot of people on the North, Northeast Side that have them but they don't have them outside, they probably have them inside.
Carmella: Yeah, that's true.Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 24
Arthur: It's just because out there, I think, they don't see 'em, over here they do see 'em, you know, it's the custom over here to build them outside, they would ... That's why I say it's the environment.
LG: What do you feel about like moving from the country to the city? Has that made a difference in ... ?
Gloria: Oh, I wanted to. There was really no employment opportunities, because if you didn't know anybody ... This is a terrible thing to say, especially with these tapes on, but there was a lot of discrimination, if you were not white ....
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
..: ... class, so there was ....
Gloria: There was one store ... there was one grocery store and so the Hispanic people would go groceries at this IGA store, but the cleaners, most of the groceries, the clothing stores, they were all owned by Anglos. We had the courthouse which was a prime place for people to work. They were all Anglos. And if you had two or three people that came and applied, regardless of what their qualifications were, supposedly ... and this is what we would hear, you Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 25
know ... how would I know because I never did apply, so obviously I had to get out of town. (laughter)
LG: I'm going to skip down to the very last question because I think the last one is very interesting. What don't you want to see in the exhibit? What would offend you if you saw it in the exhibit? I think that's a really interesting question.
Gloria: I think I would be offended if I saw a woman in the kitchen over a stove.
Arthur: ...... (laughter)
Gloria: I hope that they don't do the typical Hispanic woman of old times.
LG: Okay.
Carmella: I've already said what offended me about the exhibit which I'm still not clear-cut on whether or not I should be offended. But for me, it feels like its emphasizing the Spanish over the Indian. That there's not enough of the Indian or Mestizo emphasized ... from what I've seen. I mean, it could end up having a good balance, but I think, there's been too much of the emphasis of the Spanish and you know, there's got to be more of the different types of the Indian groups that have been influencing the culture, too. And also, too, I think TejanoLaurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 26
culture ... like I said earlier ... it's distinct from Mexican culture. It's distinct from Spanish and it's distnct from Indian and I'd really like it if you'd stop defining Mexican-Americans by, you know, emphasizing one of the groups and really appreciating it for the sake of what it is. I could go to Mexico and feel like a tourist, foreigner, there. I could go to Spain and feel foreign there and go to a Reservation and feel totally foreign there and it's because there's, you know, influences from that, as well as African culture and ... but, you know, it's distinct, we're different and we need to maybe research more because it's been neglected as far as what a Tejano is. But I'd like to see more of, you know, appreciation of what we are ... as something separate and distinct from all those other things.
LG: The question was ... what don't you want to see in the exhibit? What would offend you if it was put in the exhibit?
Arthur: What would offend me?
LG: Uh-huh.
Arthur: .......
Gloria: I have another place to go. I want to hear what offends you but .... (laughter)Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 27
Carmella: Take your time, take your time!
LG: Thank you, Gloria.
Gloria: Bye-bye.
Carmella: You're taking too much time. (laughter)
Gloria: You're taking too much time. (laughter)
LG: Well, we'll do a private interview. What would offend you if you saw it in the exhibit? What would you not want to see?
Arthur: Well, I wouldn't want to see, you know, like I told you before when we started ...... Texas, you know, I would like to see more Texas being Mexican, you know, Hispanic, you know, Tejano, you know.
LG: Uh-huh.
Arthur: Which it was. All Southwest was ... Spanish ...
LG: That's the history.
Arthur: That's the history, I mean, that's what I like. I wanted to see more of that than .... I don't like to see it Americanized, you know. Which, like I said ..... (background noise) ... I know it's my fault, but like I said, at my house, at my mother's house, we still speak Spanish. At my mother-in-law's house we don't speak Spanish, but that's ....
..: It was just a question. Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 28
LG: It certainly wasn't ... I just was curious as to ...
Arthur: I would like to see ... what would offend me ... for the church .... (background noise) Tejanos ... Mestizo Indians, which my mother probably was, descended from one of those, my father was .... Spanish .... family came from Monterrey but I know my father is like, light-skinned, light-skinned, boy, he was ... he passed away five years ago. But my mother is dark-skinned. You should see us, I mean, ...
LG: Rainbow ...
Arthur: Half of us ... I've got two sisters and I mean, they've got green eyes, blond hair.
Carmella: Mine, too. (laughter) ... total ...
Arthur: And you see ... and I've got two other sisters that are dark ... darker than I am and that's another thing .... when we were growing up ... Saturdays, you know, morning, my grandfather would .... my grandparents used to live about six blocks away from us and my grandfather always used to go to church, you know, Catholic, and he would stop by the house early in the morning and bring some pandusa, sweetbread, my mother would put coffee on the table and my sister, my sister ... they called us twins, but she's one Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 29
year younger than I am ... but we were born on the same date ...
LG: That was good planning.
Arthur: Anyway, and she's dark, dark, and my mother she would always bring coffee, get the coffee pot to the table and drink coffee, take a sip of my father's and mother's coffee cup, and my mother one time told her, "Don't do that because you'll stay black. You're going to get black." So I heard that and I said, "No, I don't want no coffee!" (laughter) And today I don't drink coffee! The only time I drink coffee is during Christmas time and they make tamales, 'cause that's the only thing that tamales go good with ... that's the only time ...... homemade tamales, I drink coffee then. But I don't drink coffee all through the year.
LG: Sounds like a deal to me. Let's see. I skipped down to ask that question, because I wanted to be sure we got it, because I thought that would be so interesting. What Tejano organizations do you admire or believe are important?
Arthur: I like that Guadalupe Cultural Arts Center. I really, every chance we get we go to see a play or what's happening there. I believe they do have ...... I don't know if you've ever been there, .... message there .... like, I remember when I was growing up my grandmother used to take Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 30
us down to the Alemeda ....... it was like a song and dance thing. But up there on the ... they used to have a MC and stuff like that, people used to sing and stuff like that, and my grandmother used to like to see that. And she would take us and she was asking .... anybody want to go downtown? everybody's hand .... (laughter) ... And now, I ask my sons if they want to go and ... "No, pero, ..." I'll get 'em to go, don't worry about that. (laughter) And another thing I like, I was sorry to hear about that man passing away, Cesear Chavez, because I think he's done a lot for the Mexican-American people, .... and that's something ...... that people like that ... I really admire people like that. Now, Henry Cisneros is still ... he's my age and I say, "I'm proud of him!"
LG: He's done good. (laughter)
Arthur: But it remains to see what he can do now that he's on the national level. To me, ....
LG: Carmella, how about you? Are there organizations that you think are important and admire?
Carmella: I think MALDEF and the Guadalupanas. I don't really don't know very much about the Guadalupanas, but I think, from what I know they would be very interesting.
LG: What do the Guadalupanas do?Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 31
Carmella: It's like a religious organization of ..... a Catholic organization that get together and do prayers and do charity work. And it's really interesting. I really don't know too much about 'em. But my aunt died a couple of weeks ago and she was a Guadalupana and I didn't even know. I was really shocked and like, five of the women from the group came and they had their medallions, they have red, white and green medallions, like a ribbon with a medallion on it. And they all came to, it was like an honor guard. It was really interesting. And so she was buried with the medal on. And so it's something I want to look further into. As far as women's organizations, it would be interesting.
Arthur: It is a women's organization? It's like the Mexican-American Business .... like that? But this is a religious ....
Carmella: Right, right.
Arthur: Is it Catholic, primarily?
Carmella: Yes, it's a Catholic organization.
LG: You've already gone into the next question is ... What Tejano men, women and leaders and ordinary people do you admire or believe are important in Tejano ... ? Would you like to address that question? Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 32
Carmella: Henry B. would be good. He's always been proud of his ...... Gosh, how many years has he been in office? (laughter) Forever, and it's like, everybody from the West Side would ... always loved him and everyone was always talking about him. I think he's really contributed a lot. He's always been very outspoken and he'd be an interesting person .... I think he should be in it.
Arthur: ...... Navarro .....
LG: Historical figures ... Are there any historical figures ... ?
Arthur: Francisco Ruiz ... what's his name? Not because he has my last name (laughter) but .....
LG: A good name, a proud name ...
Arthur: .... I've read on them and I think they did contribute a lot to Texas and those are heros, those are people I consider heros.
LG: Any women? He's only mentioned men ....
Arthur: ......... Cortez ....
LG: .......
Arthur: ......... 40s was it, 30s ...
LG: I think 40s, but I'm not sure.
Arthur: ...... like even now .... there's State Representative named Christine Hernandez and I got to talk Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 33
to her one time ... when older son went into high school. He went to high school and junior high they didn't have a dress code, or something like that, and so when he went to high school, they told him he couldn't wear his hair long and he was kind of upset so I went to the principal, ... sorry ... so I said could I talk to somebody else and (laughter) I went to talk to her 'cause she was my district representative ... so ...
LG: Was she able to help you out?
Arthur: Well, not necessarily, but ...
LG: (laughter) She gave you the name of a good barber or something?
Arthur: Well, no, but the way she ... made me understand .... you can't always have what you want ...... (background noise) I think she's done a good job and I think she even helped the Institute!
LG: How about you, Carmella? Do you have any women heros?
Carmella: I can't think of any. I'm ashamed to say it. I can't think of anyone.
LG: Okey-dokey. What kinds of ideas, and this is something we've already sort of talked about, what kinds of ideas do you have about Spanish, Indians and Mestizos who lived in Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 34
Texas several centuries ago? Maybe we've already covered that, what do you think?
Arthur: ....... descendants ..... sure glad they were around ... so we can be around. (laughter)
Carmella: It would be interesting to see the specifics as far as like, if they were nomadic, which groups were around San Antonio or each city, say the Apaches came in and were trading for awhile, and then they migrated out to a different area, and a different group came in. And Corpus Christi has what? the Tarakawas and they're supposedly really tall and cannibal eaters and stuff, they have that fierce reputation, and just knowing who is where, the individuals. I would be interested to know what the ethnic make-up is for the regions or ........ There's lots of migration within the state, but it would be interesting to see who is where, to the see the individual ....
LG: I think the demographics are very .... Are there any things, objects and artifacts that you would like to see in the exhibit?
Arthur: .......
LG: Any particular kind of an artifact that you could think of that would be very representative of your life. You ... Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 35
you'd like to make an exhibit of yourself, what kind of artifacts would you put in it?
Arthur: Games people play! To me, that's a lost art, too. I remember, when we growing up in the neighborhood, we used to make up our own games and stuff like that. Well, not even make up, those games .... ages, you know, like, marbles and tops, but like, bow and arrow, but we used to make our own bow and arrow, we used to make our own kites, from apple crates, slice the pieces of wood or whatever, stakes and stuff, and now that's ... my kids were younger I would buy them marbles and try to teach them how to play, they couldn't even throw a top and spin it .... they couldn't do it. But I would like to emphasize that that there's .... you go to the South Side, I can still go back to Laredo where my brother, I have a brother that lives in Laredo, and you can still see kids playing those games.
LG: What about you, Carmella? What about artifacts and objects?
Carmella: I guess, like the herbs and the medicines and things that were ... the local medicines that we used and I hate to emphasize the negative, but I'd like to also show how in, I guess the 1950s, how there was "white" water fountains and "other" water fountains and entrances that Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 36
were ... We were the local coloreds and so how there were differences ... photographs of maybe those kinds of things. My parents always told me they would go to restuarants and they weren't welcome and if they insisted they would put them off in a different corner. Or some restuarants had separate seating or separate entrances and I had always heard that about Mississippi and Alabama, but I didn't really think about Texas in that way until my parents started telling me. I'd like to see something like that because I think there's a lot of denial that there is discrimination against Hispanics or Latinos, I think, especially now, I think it's real ... it's real subtle and people don't want to accept it, it's there ... I want it to be known that there is a history of that discrimination and that it's still here. And to deny it, like calling yourself something other than what you are is also .... but that's irrelative, but I want to see that kind of history ....
LG: Kind of earlier, you said something about ... talking about when you first felt ... an example when you felt discriminated against and you said you didn't when you were young, but you want to talk about a time when you felt discriminated against? Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 37
Arthur: I think I was 13 years old. Something like that. See my father was a brick-layer, he had his own company. Subcontracted masonary. He used to have .... and as soon as I was old enough he would take me along, in the summer. One time I was out there on a job, we were working ... I think it was somewhere on the North Side, they were always building on the North Side, they still do. (laughter)
LG: Too many.
Arthur: Anyway, we were there sitting eating lunch one day and this immigration people came by and I don't know why they came directly to me, they got .... and asked me in Spanish, in Spanish they asked me .... but first they asked me where I was from. And I said, San Antonio. I said, here, you know, I went like that. What do you mean, here? San Antonio ....... what school do you go to? Edgewood Middle School or Edgewood Junior High and stuff like that .... Then my dad came over and said, "What's wrong?" And they ..... My dad said, "That's my son you're talking to." My dad spoke real good English. My mom spoke ... But at home we spoke Spanish. But my dad had to learn English to be working ... job ... and all the builders were Anglo and Jews, the way he used to call them, so that was the first time that I can remember ... There were some Anglo people Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 38
working for us, my dad used to hire anybody, and then there were some people that were ..... (laughter) ...
LG: How about you, Carmella?
Carmella: Well, I guess, you know, when you are little you don't really understand why it is. I guess then you begin to recognize it for what is, being treated differently. ... somehow getting into trouble all the time when you're just quiet, where you listening when they were talking to you. I was just sitting here, you know, just getting into trouble for different things all the time. I feel it a lot every day. There's always something. You can also get discrimination from your own people. For me because of the way I talk, someone who's Mexican wouldn't like me because I think I'm too good, that's what they would think, because I don't have an accent or because my Spanish isn't that great. And it's terrible, you get it from all sides. In college it was hard, too, because I went to a school where there weren't any other Mexican-Americans and there was no one for me - to screw my head on right. Like this professor has consistently run out of exams whenever it was my turn to get an exam - is that just a coincident and of course, I wanted my friends to say, "No, the guy's a jerk! He's doing it to you. It's personal." And no one would say, "Oh, it's all Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 39
in your head." But then, I started hanging out with the African-Americans, they were my friends, and they'd say, "Oh, that guy has done that to me, too!" And so they were the only ones that could see it, like all my white friends couldn't see it, and so I think the hardest part is recognizing it for what it is. But its there everyday, you get it ..... by the way people look at you, by their tonalities, by the way they'll treat you, even if just not recognizing you as just a person.
Arthur: You, know, that's funny, like she said, in school and stuff like that. Like I was saying, in school I might have been discriminated ... we weren't discriminated against because we couldn't speak Spanish. But we were so little, we didn't understand that. Okay, that's the rule, I guess. But that's really what's discrimination .... talk Spanish in school. When I first understood what discrimination ... when I thought that I was been discriminated ... incident that I do remember. But like I said, she said, the way you talk and stuff like that, ... To me, now, when you think about it, we could have been discriminated because we didn't speak Spanish ... that's something ... we have a right .... (background noise) ... freedom, I think it's an amendment ...Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 40
LG: Free speech.
Arthur: Yeah.
LG: Let's see, I think we're down to about the last one, I've done some skipping around, but the other one is - Do you have any ideas for video topics? We're going to have a number of different videos in the exhibit and there are a lot of things that are difficult to deal with with artifacts but are perhaps easier to deal with with videos - do you have any ideas for things that might would make a good video?
Arthur: To me the only idea I have is, you know, it's the same as any culture. Germans have the ......, Indians they have different tribes, Native Americans, I think Hispanic people, Spanish people, whatever, they're different customs ......
LG: Diversity within the community ....
Arthur: ... diversity within the Hispanic people, too. That's the only thing that I can think of.
LG: ... things you would like.
Arthur: ...
LG: How about you, Carmella? Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 41
Carmella: That sounds like a great idea, I like that. The shades of brown. Showing the people that work at Kelly, the people that go to the Mercado on Friday night, the ....
Arthur: You go to the Mercado?
Carmella: Yeah, I do. (laughter)
Arthur: ... seen you there! (laughter)
Carmella: My parents ... different events, you know. I don't know if everyone else does this at Christmas, but we all get together and make tamales together, it's a big family event.
Arthur: Like I said, that's the only time I like to eat tamales! (laughter)
LG: Do you make tamales in your family?
Arthur: Yes.
Carmella: Your mom made them?
LG: Do you go over to your mom's or do you ...?
Arthur: No, at my mother-in-law's house, even though they don't speak Spanish but they make good tamales. (laughter)
LG: They make good tamales!
Carmella: Make tamales ...
LG: Oh, I knew it had to be something ....
Carmella: And the birthday parties, the pinatas, la posada during Christmas, just the different events, I think, are Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 42
really interesting and exciting and stuff, but I don't want it to be much emphasis, because people get offended because they think, you know, we're showing Mexicans as ... oh, always partying ... that's all we know how to do, I think we're just better at it ... (laughter)
LG: .....
Carmella: I really like the idea. Everyday, just showing the spectrum, all the different colors that there are from the people that are really blond, fair, blue eyes ....
Arthur: I think you'd really enjoy Rosedale Park, too. Sometimes they have the conjunto thing, it goes on for two or three weeks, ... Thursdays ...
Carmella: Yeah. They do, every Thursdays now, don't they?
Arthur: Yeah. It's not like T-Town ... T-Town is just .....
Carmella: I've never been there! (laughter)
LG: We're speaking a different language now, what are we talking about!
Carmella: T-Town ... what is it? Tejano Town? It's on Fredericksburg? Blanco?
Arthur: It's on Blanco.
Carmella: Blanco ...
LG: It's just like a nightclub?Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 43
Arthur: It's a nightclub.
Carmella: It's a new ... it a part of the Tejano explosion. Arthur: Tejano music ... latest ....
LG: Are you a musician?
Arthur: No. I wish I was.
LG: You know, there are a number of people here who are musicians. Are you a musician?
Carmella: No, not at all.
LG: Well, that makes three of us. (laughter)
Carmella: I sing to the radio, does that count?
LG: ..... depends on how bad you sing ....
Arthur: And I do admire musicians, I do. There was this guy that used to work here, Raymond .....
Carmella: Yeah, I never ..
LG: He comes to Folklife ... his group comes to Folklife ...
Arthur: ....
LG: I think the last time we had one of these meetings, he came here and his wife came to that one.
Carmella: .... I'd like to see Freddie Fender, Johnny Rodriguez, Flaco Jimenez, I'd like to see all them in there, too. Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 44
LG: Well, let's see, anything that I missed here? .... Well, that pretty much covers the spectrum of the questions. Is there anything that you feel is important that we didn't talk about?
Arthur: ... ask my momma stuff like that, I'm going to take this, maybe go over it ... maybe she can ....
LG: Would your mom be interested in maybe being ... coming to a community meeting? We will probably have more community meetings in San Antonio. Do you know people who would like to come, if you do, if you would jot down their names and addresses and given them to us, it will give us a broader base of people to draw from and as I said, so much of our input comes from academics that we think it's really important to talk to folks who are just folks, 'cause .... that's a different ... it's like a multitude of cultures, it's a different culture. So if you have friends or relatives or people that you admire that you think that we ought to involve in this, doesn't matter if they're in San Antonio, we're going to be going outside of San Antonio, too.
Arthur: ......
LG: We're starting here. I'm just real glad that we had as good a turn-out as we had this evening. I think it's real Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 45
important that we involve our local ... our family people ... our local people here at the Institute, too.
........
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.