THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
SUBJECT: Tejano Community Advisory Meeting
DATE: 1 May 1993
PLACE: Institute of Texan Cultures
MODERATORS: Matt ..., Jim McNutt
Laurie Gudzikowski
..: ... I think, for example, that ..... you have to show the children in las escuelitas, that's number 1, okay? The little Mexican schools. That's number 1. Another thing is you should also show children at work - in the fields with their parents. And then, you should show a patio, you know, a dirt backyard, with little kids playing - little cars - little boys - ... (laughter)
..: The kites!
..: ........ yeah!
..: The scooters.
..: .......
..: Marbles. Have them play marbles in the yard. Have them play cars in the yard. I never saw ... my yard never had, you know, green. It was a dirt backyard and was ideal for making little roads - r-r-r-r (laughter)
..: We had green.
..: We did too...: And we put a blanket out there and we would look at the constellations and tell stories ... that was very important ... was the story-telling at night. I mean, yeah, ... home at last .........
..: And the back porch ... a back porch versus a front porch.
..: Oh, yes, definitely. Change that.
..: And where's my .........? Where is she going to be? (laughter)
..: Oh, yeah, that's story-telling.
..: ..... grew up with ... not so much stories ..... narratives of what people have done ........
..: ........
..: Oh, yeah, the family histories.
..: .....
..: Yeah. Like we didn't have it formally, like she said and we maybe didn't have it visually, but it was in oral communication. And the backyard is so important - with the herbs and the trees where you could get, you know, the leaf that cures this and that .........
(background noise)
..: How did you all like the Galvan Theater? Do you have any comments on that?
..: I answered that question on my other table, so ...LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 3
..: Oh, you did? (laughter)
..: ...... a little didactic, a little like ... here I'm teaching you something ... type thing. It might be different if I saw the whole thing, but just the things that she ........
..: Like teaching something .....
..: Almost most like moving ......
..: ... already knows.
..: No, no. Moving on to ... here I go on the blackboard, I'm 25 years in the classroom, but I've also done about 20 years of community theater and so it sounds kind of theater and teaching combined and all of a sudden I do little theater and all of a sudden a little teaching.
..: Okay.
..: Not that it's bad, it's just the way it came about.
..: You like for it it feel more ...
..: More theater.
..: ... more natural, more theatrical.
..: Yes.
..: So that you are actually getting ... you're getting the gist of it without really realizing it?
..: Is it possible? I don't know, but ...
..: You'd like to see it like ...LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 4
..: Yes.
..: Anybody else?
..: ....... little piece, you know, ....
..: .... just having .....
..: I couldn't understand it.
..: ......
..: Well, that's right, the whole .... might have been different .....
..: Yeah.
..: ..... I'm just responding to what I heard and saw, that's all.
..: Yes.
..: ..... name again.
..: Maria.
..: We can pass it around, if you'd like to do it that way.
(mixed conversation)
..: ... when you ask a question, you might say, okay, you know, who wants to answer it and just ... that's what we were doing in our other group ... to the person and kind of handed it along .....
..: .......
..: How do you think we can involve the Tejano community as playwright? Any suggestions? How could we get the ....?LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 5
..: I think that possibly if you did some mini-oral histories you might be able to get dialogue, even, from those experiences. If you talk it to the folks you're interviewing with some very specific focus, you know, you interview her for a specific focus, etc., that ... in the oral history things you might be able ... not necessarily oral history ... but interviews that will give you notions and dialogue that you might be able to incorporate.
..: I think doing something like that also gives you a sense of how there is different interpretation and a different identity, you know, that is coming from a different place if you have ... if you do something like that. I mean, you can almost hear, you know, the discussion and going back and forth and really shows there's diversity within the community.
..: You were talking about getting input from Tejano ...
..: Tejanos, right.
..: ... playwrights. Well, you know there are several community groups. But if you could get a writer to go with you when you conduct these interviews, you know, they're the ones that would be thinking creatively along those lines ... of being able to formulate some kind of play for you.
..: So, not necessarily ...LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 6
..: So ...
..: Not necessarily a Tejano that is a playwright, but just going and observing Tejanos ...
..: That would be the ideal situation ...
..: ......
..: Yes, taking someone who, you know, has experience along those lines, who ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... does that for a living, to go along with these interviews and then be able to ... Because there are some people who are just culturally involved all the time who may not think of these things, these various historic things that are indigenous but if you could .....
..: Uh-huh. Also.
..: Sure. Sure.
..: I mean, I don't know. Are you tapping into the Guadalupe Cultural Arts?
..: We've been out there a few time to the Guadalupe and we have a few contacts out there, but we haven't been out there in a while. I don't know, didn't ... there's a lady that we're working with who is doing another Gallery play who maybe associated ... Is she associated with Guadalupe Cultural Arts Center? LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 7
..: Yeah.
..: Yes.
..: She's .......
..: Dora did that? I didn't know that. Okay. What other kinds of public programs would you like to see in the exhibit area? Like the Gallery Theater. Other types of programs. Any comments?
..: You might use it for dance or something like that. ....
..: Well, we were talking earlier about the whole plaza notion. That the plaza had a lot of activity going on. For instance, one of the activities that we have going on in a typical plaza, certainly in San Antonio, would be political rallies. ... political speeches going on ... certainly there was music. There were small groups of bands. I interviewed a gentleman out in the Guadalupe area who talked about how almost every block had musicians and they would make little ... form little bands and they would play on the weekends on what we call 'plataformas' and they'd just set up and the neighborhood comes and dances. And it's no-charge, it's just what we do and so ... it's just what they do. I mean, it's part of their recreation. No performance, just .....LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 8
..: That's how Tejano music came to be, I mean, they were the ones who mixed the Mexican music with the German polka and that's how Tejano ... conjunto ... how conjuntos came to be. But certainly you're going to have music, that goes without saying, correct? Going to have that kind ... Is that what you're thinking about for the Gallery?
..: Yes.
..: Or is the Gallery mostly for play presentations or things like that?
..: We're open to any suggestions at this point.
..: Ah.
..: I think what you all are saying is that we should not necessarily present things to the community as much as let them use the space for events.
..: Right.
..: That they might otherwise go someplace else ...
..: There are some schools in San Antonio who are doing some plays on, I guess, developing more cultural awareness. I can think of Tafolla Middle School, and I forget the name of the organization, but it was an organization for young ladies and they had a presentation at something that I emceed recently and you know, it was a play in Spanish and so I'm not sure what they ... if this is a thing that they LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 9
are constantly working on but the Tafolla Middle School would be a contact and I imagine if you would talk to the woman in charge of the Leadership Club she would be able to direct you to the person responsible for this and you know, that would be an avenue.
..: Okay.
..: I know that you do so much with the schools here in San Antonio and you certainly want ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... to get them involved in this sort of thing. So, talking to them, they would certainly know what other schools are working on things like this.
..: You know, I think that is a very exciting if you get involved with the schools, 'cause then you can ask the children what sort of things they might want to have and I think it would be sort of exciting to see children enacting these parts, you know, for them to be the actors ... and their history and they get to know it. That way they would get more of a historical consciousness at that early important age if they can be a part of it and help create it in some way.
..: Well, I guess ... actually, now that I remember what it was ... (laughter) ... they did their own version of Jack LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 10
and the Beanstalk, but it was in Spanish and it was real cute, but ... I don't know if that's what ... (laughter) ... part of our history! That's what they're doing now! (laughter)
..: That's interesting!
..: Certainly humorous and interesting for all us who were there ... it was a woman's organization that had this ...
..: Was it entertaining?
..: Oh, certainly, yes, it was. And it was something that you know, our people could relate to.
..: ..... either Gallery or combination of Gallery and Theater and other activities in the plaza, you need to look at the religious element because some of those are religious, social, political, it's a whole combination of ... women that get incorporated into a religious event. And you need to look ... not just the key things like the Guadalupe observance, but other things that the community does all the time. And that becomes both an artistic situation and a religious/political situation. You need to incorporate those into the plaza.
..: We're talking about the Gallery and then we're talking about the plaza, as though they are intertwined, is that ...? LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 11
..: The only reason ...
..: I'm not sure I understand that.
..: When we use the term "Gallery" I think what we're talking about is the "Gallery Theater" ...
..: Okay.
..: ... which is a program, it is not a space.
..: All right. Okay.
..: It's the program that Cindy just presented.
..: Which will be ... ?
..: In the plaza.
..: In the plaza area. Okay. Because we talked about that.
..: Hopefully.
..: ....
..: There's some topics under consideration for inclusion in the Tejano exhibit and they're all related to the main themes of the ... of identity in community but do we have the space to treat them all? Those chosen, four or five at most, will become the exhibit sub-themes. How do you feel about the appropriateness of each and how can it best be exhibited? How do you feel about the appropriateness of education, religion, work, social class with the Tejano community, public and private sides of culture, gender, LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 12
race, poverty and discrimination, organizational life, civil rights, civil rights political empowerment, artistic expression - any of those or all of them? How do you feel about including them in the exhibit and how do you feel that they should be presented?
..: So much of this we talked about with our last group, isn't it?
..: Go ahead and say it twice if you want to.
..: ...... include ...... how .......
..: Why sure ...
..: .... how ...
..: All of the themes that you have indicated we did talk about a little bit in the previous session. That they need to be included and I guess, my feeling is that they need to be presented as straight-forward as possible. I mean, including the negative things in terms of discrimination and racism, whatever you called ...... As straight-forward as possible. Without justifying anything and saying, "Oh, no, it wasn't that bad." Yes, it was. It was that bad. Because that's part of the identity of the community.
..: In our previous discussion ... we talked about how the community develops. These are the Anglo community. Where on one side of the tracks, one side of the river, one side LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 13
of the highway, you have nice green lawns, etc., and on the other side you have ... dirt ... dirt roads, etc., etc. That's part of the identity of the community. That tension, those conflicts, that's what makes the Tejano community today. And you cannot give us an exhibit that doesn't articulate that.
..: What was ........ Gallery or Theater presentations or ...
..: Just ........
..: Because a very important point we brought up was to have a ... it's intertwined and you can't separate it, I mean, it was always the arts, and you know, so much a part ... the religion in every part of life. And so as long as it's intertwined in the history, as you present this, have some sort of connection. And one of the things he mentioned was not having this thing here, not education here, religion here, arts here, and .....
..: And each section to include education, religion, ...
..: How that fit in.
..: Yeah.
..: That's a real tough one.
..: I know. I know. We all agreed on that! LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 14
JM: ... the way the question was presented ... take off from there. I think what Matt has asked in respect to how we deal with these things that are intellectually themes is to some degree how you design the experience, not just the exhibit, but the experience for the visitor. And so, taking off from another point of ... heard at the other table earlier we talked about the variation of La Raza in terms of color and physical appearance. And so that can be a theme ... now to treat that straight-forwardly might mean to write a text panel and say, "Tejanos have many different ..." but ... people read that or how they experience that text, that's dealing with other possible presentations which might not be classified as straight-forward but might have impact. Might have to do with how you do maniquins or what is in the photographs, whether those photographs are black and white or color, and how we convey that impression. So with respect with those whole nest of themes, there's that ... certain elastisity ... how you can present what you want. So ... I mean, what has been exciting for me is just ... this morning to see everybody go hit that model, hit these plans, and start having ideas, pulling up experiences, ... a lot of reaching back to remember experiences in the barrio or wherever. That gives you something to go on, to keep LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 15
talking, tell us what experience we can translate to this thing.
..: It's not pinpointed here but I think patriotism is a big ... should be a part of this exhibit. Because, you know, so many of the homes that you go into, you not only see the Virgen de la Guadalupe, but you see a picture of those who served in the wars ...
..: Yeah.
..: And you know, ...
..: That's true.
..: ... that's ... oh, my gosh, that was so, so important and grandma was so proud, momma was so proud of the boys who went into service.
..: Well, because we ...... because we were suspect, our loyalties were always suspect.
..: Sure, sure.
..: So yes, we ..... sent our boys off to be soldiers, otherwise we would ... The period of the 20s and 30s, Mexican-Americans were suspect all over the Southwest. Our loyalties were always ....... so we did ......
(background noise)
..: ...... much earlier time period as well, you know, and so you have to make sure that comes, you know, there is a LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 16
continuity throughout the history. That you see it's a continuous question of citizenship and having to say, "Look what we are doing. We are Americans, we are here, we've been here. And ..." I think that when you brought up civil rights I mean, it shows you that that struggle doesn't just pop up, you know, in the 60s and 70s ...
..: ......
..: Yeah, that it's a theme throughout the history.
..: ..... just a little bit in answer to you. I'm very prejudiced towards a Gallery Theater presentation that presents an action, sort of a re-creation of events or what have you, which people can draw conclusions from ... that says, "Oh, that's what it's about!" on it, with actors. Because I know people don't always read the label, the paragraph, the few sentences that describe ... I don't! I look at the images, I kind of read the label and I move on to the next thing. I don't have time to read all of that stuff! I want to see it! I want to experience it. So for me the theater is the way to experience it.
..: Oh, yeah.
JM: Okay. You saw one Gallery view. How would you envision some of the topics that Matt mentioned as other Gallery theater?LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 17
..: How to do education?
..: Well, what ...
..: Topics like that?
JM: You had an experience in ....... one's a vignette .......
..: I think some of the important things that you could do ... are having like ...... that. You know it would ... studying what's called ...... history and Mexican-American history, you see that there's some generational, you know, dissent and disagreement as things go through time. You know, someone ... the post-war, the World War II generation they called the Mexican-American generation and then you have like the Chicano generation later on and I think one thing would be to have almost have one be set-up like a discussion between the two generations and saying, "Well, why don't we, you know, look at things this way? And no, you've got to fight against it, don't be an assimilationist, don't go along." And show that there's that tension within the community and how they re-interpret identity over time.
..: Because there still is. You heard one of the older people in that video over there say, "Don't call me a Chicano!" You know, they are very offended by that term. LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 18
So that would certainly be a very good play to serve ... to show the two different generations.
..: Uh-huh.
..: I'd like to see ... in the plaza area where there's some political speeches going on, sort of the period of the 30s and what-not, we have a lot of good Marxist stuff around. Because that's formative for people like Emma ........ , for instance, and you can either focus on Emma's story or you can just make that sort of the generic and that's political formation anyway.
..: Well, what I think ...
..: People began to think and analyze their own reality and take action on it.
..: But I remember along those lines, when we talk about politics, is just like the ice cream trucks, the trucks who drive around the neighborhoods with the speaker systems, you know .............. so ....
..: Yankee Doodle tune.
..: (laughter) ...
..: Little bells.
..: The politicians would just .... trucks ...
..: Banners ...
..: Yeah.LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 19
..: ... just drive around the neighborhoods with those megaphones ...
..: I was just going to say also, you can deal with the Mexican Revolution and people wanting to support it here and then people also being driven to immigrate towards this country and the flux in that time period so people ... showing that there's still that connection at that point over some issues, that there's an identity both ways. And that continues really, over time.
..: Is that important to show that the even within the Mexican-American community in San ... in Texas that there was quite a diverse range of opinions? That is important?
..: I think, I mean, there was a lot of support here for the Revolution and I think a lot of people came here because of it. On one side or another, you know, were here. That seems ... it's an important event. And yet, it's called Mexican history, but it's ... it shows you the fluidity of the border, because it goes both ways. You don't loose that connection to that history and those events that are continuing in Mexico. So it's not U.S. history versus Mexican history, but it's ... you know, Tejano history, it's our history.LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 20
..: We talked a little bit about and I want to say it again here because I think it's an important concept that we talked about in the previous session. The notion of continuity. That because you have to separate elements physically in an exhibit space that you need to keep in your heads and the other activities, the notion of continuity, ....... one's community that experienced the many different varieties ....... pointing out the continuity between the Mexican history and the Texas history, that it is one history of one people, there was a river in between at one point, which for many people still continues to be just a river, not necessarily a political boundary, in terms of culture and family and what-have-you. So the notion of continuity.
..: Have we exhausted our ....
..: I think we should have a panaderia somewhere and give everybody some pandalusa ... (laughter) ...
..: ... you'll be there every day! (laughter)
..: ... smells like one!
..: Yeah, because there was one in every neighborhood, ...
..: Have to get a stove up there ...
JM: Yeah. How would you measure the results of this exhibit? On visitors? If you were a teacher or a school LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 21
administrator or survey taker, whatever? And you wanted to see what changes could be wrought on the knowledge and experience of visitors to this exhibit ... what would you look for? As you were doing exit polls or some equivalent of that. What would you look for in those people and maybe among different audiences? When you do advertising on the radio you want to sell the product, you measure that your sales go up or they don't, so you know the advertisment is effective. Okay, I want to know what can we look for in this ...
..: To show that it was effective?
JM: Yeah, I mean, it doesn't have to be general ... I mean, very specific, but you know, we're investing a lot of money in this, this is big, in expenses and intensive in terms of labor and time. So the thing is ... unlike other media we don't have ways to measure very well what good it does - so help us look for things. What would you look for if you were coming through? What would make you feel good coming out of this? What would you think would be effective for a group of tourists that comes through on a Grayline Bus Tour? How would you measure what was good for them and what's not?LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 22
..: Everybody comes in with their preconceived notions. That's the whole thing about having a Tejano exhibit, is that everybody has their own idea about what Tejanos are. So it's so hard to figure out what's going to please eveyone. I think what we're trying to do and the reason we're all here, is to try to be sure that it's accurate. Whatever is here is accurate and truly reflects, you know, what happened, or what is part of our history. Are you saying, how to make sure they enjoy the exhibit, they get ... they got something out of it?
..: I don't know. I guess I'm looking at it from a schoolteacher's view point, how would I know that the students got anything out of it. I guess if they came back with questions. With asking for more. Asking for what book can I read or what else is there? Because this is obviously ... sort of whetting their appetite for more and it's so well done, but it's limited because it has to be, and they want more. For me, as a schoolteacher, I would judge that.
..: I think especially if you had school kids you'd want it if you could have some way, if the teachers bringing their students through here, you might want to find out, .... from the children how they took it. I mean, that don't tell you how it's getting across, pretty clearly. And you want to LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 23
make sure that they don't walk through and think it's like a war history or that it's man history, but they say, "Wow, look there were women contributing ..." .... that they get very much a consciousness throughout the thing that they don't see the women as, you know, sub-.... or some adjunct to the history or that they don't fall through the cracks and become invisible, but they really understand, especially that side of it. That it goes throughout the history and I think if you would ... if the exhibit is designed to show, you know, make sure that it shows that throughout. That hopefully they'll get that impression. And hopefully that you'll challenge them throughout they'll notice that's the message. You know, they might not ... and everyone might not accept it, but at least they're hearing that message.
JM: How do you present a challenge like that? For ...
..: You state it. In the texts, you know, you say, "Look, women were doing this at this time period. Look, women were crucial .........
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
LG: .... afraid we're going to get a lot of ambient noise, but we're going to give this a try, because everybody would like to know what everyone is saying .... Our first LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 24
question is - What is you initial reaction to the exhibit plans just presented? And by that I don't mean just the floor plan and the model which ... exhibit components and the exhibit ideas that we've talked about.
..: Don't everybody speak at the same time.
LG: Would you like to begin? Roberto, you've had more time to think about our exhibit plans that some of these other people ... have been involved in this for awhile, would you like to start off by giving us some of your initial reactions to our plans?
..: Well, I'm not sure you want to ask that question. (laughter)
LG: Well, while we're here.
..: Well, a couple of things .... observations were made up there. First of all, is that the plaza thing is really not a plaza the way everybody knows a plaza. I'm not sure a plaza like that ever existed in even Mexican-Colonial times in San Antonio. It's an artsy plaza. And I think that's a biggie because what you're doing is you're making that just simply because of the space it .... and you're making that the center, the heart of the exhibit. And so you have to be very careful that it ... this artsy plaza is really not indicative of what, you know, people are familiar with. LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 25
..: The colors ... the color scheme ... I mean, I don't ...
..: Yeah.
..: But look, let me say, it sorta ... back off and say ... In general my first reaction to the plaza was ... Okay, good, let's see.
..: Uh-huh.
..: It's like the notion of a Tejano exhibit is intriguing and could be exciting. Now, so you all have already jumped into the second level of saying ... but the specifics being shown us ... don't jive too well with our experience ...
..: ......
LG: Okay, then I guess the next one is - What are your suggestions?
..: My suggestion is that there be a ... one thing is that there be a lot more people, work, ...
..: ... areas ...
..: ... people and work kind of exhibits. You know, this thing here ... now I'm shocked to read this thing ... the Cortez and Montezuma mural ...
..: Yeah.
LG: No, actually, I think that is out. I think that was more a ... sort of a vague conception that Matt labeled that ...LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 26
..: Yeah, that ...
LG: ... that was something actually ever in the plan.
..: Yeah, that ought to be ...
LG: Some of it is just the way that he labeled things.
..: Yeah.
LG: Do you understand what I mean? There was some talk of having a mural that had to do with origins. And that's how he labeled it. But that ...
..: Well now, that could be addressed in a different way ... yeah, go ahead.
..: Yes, that's right. Well, exactly what he said. He and Cynthia was saying ... the images we have on the murals on the Westside are these kinds of images, those are origins but ... no necessarily ....... you know. But if I'm going to look at my indigenous past ...
..: It doesn't begin ...
..: ... Doesn't being over there. As much as I would like to say that ... noble Aztec ancestors ... I'm not sure I can ....
..: I think for example and Lillie had a ... Lillie and I were .... on the same lines about how you have to be careful about drawing that line very carefully between ... about howLAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 27
the line is drawn too carefully between the Indian exhibit and the Spanish-Mexican-Tejano exhibit.
..: Do you think ....
..: And one of the things that could benefit from ... is the ... and this thing of putting all the Indians in the missions, for example, ...
..: Yeah.
..: Very definitely.
..: You should see the essay that M. Fox and I did on Tejano origins where you have Indians in the town ...
..: Oh, yes.
..: ... And at some point there are more Indians in the town than there are in the Missions and so what you need to do is to look at that and look at those occupations from the Indians in the towns senses and see what kind of you know, what work they were doing that would show that you have in fact, Indians ... this is for the Colonial period ... time ... you should ... and that's another critial thing in the Colonial period, it ends up being characterized by the vaquero culture, which is heavily emphasized upstairs. All of which is fine, but you don't see any of the ... there should be some reference to the development of the fields and the development of the acequias system ... as a criticalLAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 28
thing of work. I mean, for the first generation of settlers was to find that security. And that security was found in agricultural products. And in building that complex acequia system, both at the missions and in the town before the cattle enterprises really took off, which in time came to define, I think, Jerry over-stresses the definition of, you know, my good friend and colleague, that over-stresses the definition of Tejanos, you know, by the cattle culture. Which was important! But you have to realize a lot of people worked in the fields and so on and I think that development of the fields will have ... should be then expanded into the 19th century and 20th century work areas. And there should be people working on the railroads, there should be people working in the fields and so on. That is very much a part of the Mexican-American experience.
..: And the immigration period, the period of the Revolution when people come. You need to focus on a lot of folks who came ... who were the printers and the cafe owners and the bakeries. And all those things that make the communities .... I know ... I overheard somebody talking about, you know, the bakery at the corner and the thing ...
..: Uh-huh.LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 29
..: It was like the entire community was there, the pharmacy ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... doctor, ..... etc.
..: Many of the stores that he captured in the slide thing, let me tell you, let me tell you what those are. Many of the stores that he captured, if not the majority of the stores that he captured, in the slide thing, was the border town stores that serve Mexican buyers. And so, all these ...
LG: ... focusing ....
..: ... electronics, all these electronics, materials store and so on, ... las ... that las tres ... bonito and so on ... those are stores in downtown Laredo, downtown El Paso, downtown Brownsville, that serve Mexican shoppers. When you didn't see where the tiendojitos, ...
..: ... served the neighborhood.
..: ... in the neighborhood and so on. And I don't know if that's captured somewhere.
LG: Can we go back to the plaza, the artsy plaza ... how would we make it less an artsy plaza?
..: Well, first of all, you're eating up a lot of room by doing ...LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 30
..: You're using a lot space in the plaza.
..: Yes, .......
..: That's a cop-out.
..: I would like to ... I would like to back up.
LG: Okay.
..: And then ... and just share ... just the overall impression, okay. And for me it's closer to a Fiesta Plaza, ... not a Fiesta Plaza ... but a Fiesta Texas exhibit.
..: Yes.
..: Than a museum. And it's done in a real superficial way. Now, I know this is just a real rough thing because you .... but I think it's done in such at superficial level that it just doesn't have any creditibility for me. And so I think if you could just change our perspective and instead of dividing, you know, like saying, "Well, here's a culture, now let's pick out picturesque things that we can put up there, that people can look at. That we can get at and people can look at." I would like to see something from the perspective of the indigenous people of this area, what was it like at ... way back when, and I, again, would go pre-Spanish. I mean, because from here I get more of the sense of the conquest and that it's real strong. I got a real strong ... something coming out of it ... it's just richer LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 31
... just real strong on the conquest part, okay? So I would do it like pre-conquest time and then continue with the rest ..... adaptation, changes, etc. And then look at the different divisions of that, for example, work, political institutions, etc. To me that would give me more of a .... anthropological, museum feel to the whole exhibit.
..: Yeah.
..: Which I think is something that we need to strive for rather than pretty exhibits, or picturesque exhibits that show the people, you know, over here and over there. That I think is the Fiesta Texas ...
..: That Fiesta Texas similie ...
..: ... what did I ... that makes sense, Dr. Hinojosa, ...
..: ... analogy is very good, yeah.
..: Yeah.
..: Yeah ...
..: Because they have those bright colors ...
..: ....
..: And the plaza, again, I think one of the things that kind of brought it together was your thing about the plaza. And then your thing about, you know, the Tejano thing.
..: Uh-huh.
..: It's wonderful to take pride as a community.LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 32
..: What does that mean?
..: What does it mean? I means more than the shape of an area, it means, you know, this whole region and how a people have continued, have sustained, you know, living there, even through all these changes. Climatic changes, political changes, and all this stuff. And how they endured. To me, if I call myself a Tejano, that's ......
..: I think that notion that you and Jerry did on the continuity of the community ...
..: Yes.
..: Yeah.
..: A continuing ... to me that is the perspective that needs to be taken with this exhibit.
..: Continuity ...
..: Follow that thread along and it has to be pre-Spanish conquest. Otherwise it's going to have the whole thing at the top instead ....
..: That's problematic .... like I was telling you ...
..: Yes.
..: ... because one of the things that the Institute does is separate the Indian exhibit, you know, ... How to bring that in is certainly not with Cortez and Montezuma, you know, ........ LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 33
..: (laughter)
..: ... But rather, I think, in terms of ... in terms of what I think would be the Indians in the town ...
..: The work and the kind of a political ... what kind of a political system did they have?
..: Yeah.
..: And then what kind of work did they do. And then go on from there and continue to .... that.
..: Yeah.
..: I think somewhere in here, actually, I actually liked it very much. The mock-up thing that ... what's his name that did on San Antonio ... ........
..: The dioramas?
..: No, no, not the dioramas, but it really conveys the idea of a community, is that .......?
..: Mock-up.
..: Yeah.
..: No, no, mock-up, .... that he did for the, I think for the Institute and then and then ... it's now in the IMAX Theater, where you have ...
..: The Alamo?
..: No, no, it's not the Alamo. It's a San Antonio thing, it's the whole community.LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 34
..: A model? The one that George Nelson did of the ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... Battle of the Alamo.
..: No, no, it's not the Battle of the Alamo, but that ...
..: That's the one that's in IMAX.
..: San Antonio.
..: Yeah, but that's not the Battle of the Alamo, though, it's got all of San Antonio.
..: San Antonio, but it portrays the day of the Battle of the Alamo.
..: It portrays the day of the Battle?
..: Uh-huh.
..: The diorama. It's ...
..: No, no, it's not a diorama ...
..: It is. That's a diorama. That's what he calls a diorma. That's what George Nelson calls a diorama.
..: I thought it was ...
..: It shows the whole area of San Antonio, but it portrays it on the day of the Battle.
..: It's a miniature.
..: It's a miniature diorama.
..: Yeah, okay. Well, I thought a diorama was these things? Were these things? LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 35
LG: Those are ... George Nelson is also making those and one is a plaza and one is a home interior. And in the plaza there are Indians, there are people of all walks of life.
..: See and see when you separate the Indians and then there are .... it doesn't ....
..: No, but she meant together.
LG: They're all there in the diorama.
..: I know ...
LG: They're interacting and ...
..: Well, that's ...
LG: ... and going about their business and doing many things.
..: Yeah.
..: Well, I think the question is, you know, how do you convey the idea of a community? Okay?
LG: That's what we would like to hear.
..: We have two different kinds of community. You have the local community and then you have the wider community. Okay.
..: Right.
..: Now, the local community, one way of portraying it is instead of this, you know, this artsy plaza here, to have one community or a community being shown at different ...LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 36
..: Levels.
..: ... in different centuries.
..: Uh-huh.
..: So you'd have the San Antonio community, not with the Battle of the Alamo, without the day of the Battle, okay? But you'd have the river and the different ... the two different plazas, the military plaza and the civilian plaza, the missions and so on. And so when you look at it, it would look as one community.
..: Except ... except you would be focusing on San Antonio.
..: This is ......
..: Okay, your focus in on San Antonio, okay.
..: Beyond San Antonio.
LG: This is a state-wide exhibit, ..... talk about state-wide .......
..: That's true. So there's ...
..: That's hard.
LG: So there ... you know, it becomes very ... much a complicated effort.
..: Okay. All right, but see, you have that one community, then in another area you would have another ... another little ... another community, you know, so it wouldn't be San Antonio ... the next one would not be San Antonio, it LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 37
would be another local community. You know, San Ignacio. All right. So ...
..: So ....
..: So one ...
LG: So San Antonio might ...
..: No, no, no, I would do it around the plaza so you would have one community during the 17 hundreds, another community in the 18 hundreds, another community early 19 hundreds, another community would be, you know, later 20 ... later 19 hundreds. In other words, it'd be ... this is the continuation of the community ... by showing different ... different towns. And you really have to show ... you really have to show the many ......... that existed. In other words you have to show the ...., you can show Weslaco, if you want, great town of Weslaco ...
..: No, I don't think ...
..: ... and Highway 83 and then you have the ....... on this side of town and then you have ......... .
LG: That's one of the things that we're having difficulty with ... is fitting the community into the larger ...
..: ....
..: Yeah, right. Well, ...LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 38
..: And that's were it's a problem, we have throughout the exhibit floor.
..: That's were the Spanish come in, because that's the European, and then as the Yankees started moving in, that would add to that. .......
LG: That's a problem we have throughout our exhibit floor.
..: In fact, ....
..: Yeah.
..: ... in the presidio
..: ... within each other.
..: Yeah. Well, you really have to show this, I mean, because this existed. This existed for 50-60 years.
..: Accuracy.
..: The split communities.
LG: In some ways it probably exists today.
..: It still does.
..: ... communities.
..: It does, right, that's right.
..: It does.
..: And you have the dirt streets over here, the la plazita over here, and then you have all these green lawns over here.
..: And then there's that relationship ... LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 39
LG: That important, that's a very important thing.
..: That's what makes this ....
LG: And it's a very difficult thing for us to portray in some kind of .......
..: And you have to include at some time a printed poster that one of the students found for me, dated 20 February 1942, and it read, ".... negros, Mexicans ..." I should have brought it.
LG: Segregation and ...
..: I should have brought it.
LG: ... integration and ... are all ...
..: Texas Restuarant Association ... They were publishing ...
..: Oh! Where did he find it?
..: He found it at an antique store.
LG: That's an artifact that we love to borrow.
..: ....... 20 February 1942. .....
..: ... rent it out to the Institute.
LG: That's an artifact we'd love to be able to borrow or least to photograph.
..: The day you were ....
..: Not the day, but the year I was born, yeah.
..: See, that's part of ......LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 40
..: So, it's valuable. The student gave it to me. I said, "You're stupid!" (laughter) But I'll take it! Right. He loved the class and he said, "It means more to you than it means to me."
..: Oh, it's wonderful.
..: Yeah.
LG: Well, that's definitely an artifact that we'd be interested in borrowing or least photographing.
..: Yeah.
LG: To replicate.
..: But you see, that sign tells you ...
..: A lot!
..: ...
..: This is from the 1920s ....
..: .... a whole library of relationships is embodied into this .......
..: Yeah. So I think that's another. You know, the perspective, the continuity, relationships, and that's what you want. Everything that you would see visually, that's what you want to be representative. Because ...
..: But, I think your comment and description of that plaza should be recorded, that's a Fiesta Plaza, touristy type of image, you know. And I think ...LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 41
..: Fiesta Texas.
..: ... that something ... Fiesta Texas rather ... yeah. Yeah, certainly you don't want that.
..: Well, when I saw this, I thought, "Gee, are they planning to hire entertainment here?"
..: Yeah.
..: Shows.
LG: Actually we are, we are planning to do that actually. ...
..: Well, you could have a plaza. You could have a plaza ...
LG: We're planning to have ...... Theater, we're planning on having our Educational programs, we planning on having changing exhibit activities, we planning many, many things ...
..: Again, .... Fiesta Texas ....
..: Still ....
..: You need a plazita, and you need, you know, either a sidewalk ........ kioscos in the center and so on.
..: That's what goes in the plaza.
..: That's what goes in the plaza and there's chairs here ... benches along the sides. And then, if you want, you LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 42
could put some manikins in the kiosco and have them with an audio giving the grito de dias seis.
..: Or you could have a little band.
..: Or you could have a little band ...
..: Actually the bands play in the evening.
..: But, this is a plaza like the ones, you know, ...
LG: That you see all over Texas.
..: That's right. And it should have no grass!
(laughter)
..: There was no grass anywhere!
..: Because the city ... the city .... didn't have grass in there.
..: ... the little stones that you walk on ...
..: And the other thing is the ... you have to show people, for example, the laborers piled up in the trucks going to the fields, you have to show the laborers in the fields. Laborers on the trucks, I mean, it's the constant image. And there were a couple of train accidents, for example, where, like in Donna in '54, or whatever it was, there ... in fact, a truckero was taking the laborers to the fields and the train hit it ... it was just an incredible number of deaths and stuff like that. Those are the constant images.
..: Uh-huh.LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 43
..: Or a truckero, a truck, a truck fitted out for the migration to the north. Have the truck beds and the chairs on the side and then this thing in the middle, this post in the middle holding up like the tent, the tarp, and so on, as the families piled into the trucks to migrate to the ...
..: The work.
..: ... the north.
..: That would be in the work area.
..: Well, it should .....
..: ... work changed and ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... and develop.
..: But see, that's the constant image that I think we ought not to miss. And here's where you capture this thing about a wider community, rather than a town community. Because people saw themselves as laborers.
LG: Elizabeth, we haven't heard much from you.
..: Well, I wondering, I know the plaza area was set-up for the arts, the cultural arts ...... Tejanos in the background ... What are you going to have there anyway to demonstrate arts? Is this were you're going to have ....... ?
(mixed conversation) LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 44
LG: The murals are outside there, they are part of the entry. ..... The plaza is not simply going to be arts. We have ... we're going to have Gallery Theater performances there, we're going to have changing exhibits, within the exhibit there. We're going to have demonstrations and activities there. It's our ....
..: What ......
..: ...... as part of the permanent exhibit .....
..: How are you going to decide?
(mixed converation - cannot hear)
LG: How are we going to display .... Around the plaza are storefronts and churches and other things that are ... this here area right in the front is where ... for a cultural area although .... larger. The plaza has gotten smaller and exhibits have gotten larger. Actually, there's been some really quite major changes. ...
..: ......
..: It seems to me the promotion of the arts have to be seen in the context in which the community uses the arts. And the arts for the communities have been part of the ritual that builds community. Not art for art's sake.
..: Right.
..: Not hanging a picture in my house.LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 45
..: Right. But that's ...
..: But the whole notion of the flower gardens and the rituals in the church that have music and dancing and what have you.
..: Exactly.
..: And that almost has to be live in ...
..: Sure, certainly ....
(mixed conversation)
LG: And a good deal of that will be live and some of it will be from videos.
..: See, I'm ... I hope that it's not just used as a stage, this is a stage so that we can have some kind of performances so that people can come and see something live. But rather, what did go on at the plazas? A lot of things went on at the plazas. You had strolling troubadours, you had evangalists who'd go out there and preach, and you had little families who were having this or that or the other, you had the workers who were at the plaza, the zacates, waiting for their, you know, their chance to go to work. To me, that would be more significant than just saying, "We have a stage area, now let's see what group we can bring in." LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 46
LG: Those are the type of Gallery Theater presentations that we hope to have a repertoire of Tejano ... within the plaza. Things that would be pieces of life. Things that are easier to show through a performance rather than through a static exhibit.
..: And they would ...
..: I would hope that it was because ... what I've seen ... they didn't just .... yes, we want to portray the workers, but, my gosh, ... they had guitars, they entertained themselves after it was all over. I know, my grandmother, her brothers were all ... they played and sang after working in the fields and you know, .... part of the entire presentation ...... evolution that became Tejano music ...
..: And it would be separated by periods, too.
..; Exactly, yes.
..: In this period this thing was done and then another period ...
LG: And that's part of what we're trying to intergrate here.
..: .......
..: What?
..: The political speeches in the park.
..: Oh, yes.LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 47
..: Poetry reading.
..: That's where people learned ...
..: What do you think of the religious area as being separate? Like, you know, having a little ....
..: ... difficult to integrate, but if you incorporate the ritualistic things and the every day things people go in and out of church ... even like they do in San Fernando still. ... people who work downtown ... just pop in there for .....
..: .....
..: ... and pop back out.
..: You mean, before they go to work.
..: ....
..: ... all day long ...
..: And I also think of the quinceanera ritual, the passage, but it's not a debut into society, into a social thing of dating, but rather it continues the indigenous rituals ..... a girl's passage into more responsibility. And it's a community effort. And that, like, how do you, you know, do you have this exhibit displayed and how she looks and ... that would incorporate the religion into the community. And see, that's what we were trying to .....
(mixed conversation)
..: ... more than just a fashion thing ...LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 48
..: ... she starts dating ...
..: ... that's not it at all ...
..: ... that religion thing, I would hope ... part of the home space ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... would be incorporated into the home space as well.
..: But you know, there are elements of religion everywhere, because today you walk into a Mexican restuarant and behind the cashier there is a saint ...
..: ....
..: ... always an element of that in the restuarants, I mean, just check 'em out ...
..: Yeah.
..: It's either St. Martine or Sacred Heart or ..... something. Something is always there. So that's part of the continuity, is one of those.
..: And you know, I think this would let everything we've been discussing, when they say, "This is ...... This thing is alive and it's going .... " This is what's going to give it that dynamic ... everything that we've been discussing.
LG: We have less than five minutes left. I would like to be sure that everybody has had a chance to say something, ifLAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 49
you think you've not had a chance to say something important, please, now is your time!
..: What are these areas in here that ....
LG: Those cross areas there are the only things that are non-negotiable within the whole thing. Those are the pillars that hold the roof up.
..: Okay. All right.
LG: So those are non-negotiable.
..: How far?
LG: See these cross ... those are the pillars that hold the roof up.
..: Yes, that's right.
LG: Everything else in there is ...
..: Can move around.
LG: ... is really, only mental.
..: Right.
..: One other think I thought about is toys. And toys tell a lot about people. And what are the resources you have?
LG: We hope to have children involved.
..: ... you have to have some real focus on children ... outside of work the other big element has to be children.
..: Yes.
..: Children.LAURIE GUDZIKOWSKI 50
..: Has to be.
LG: And how do you feel ... what ... how do you feel they should be incorporated?
..: Well, every ..
LG: .... toys, how? Work?
..: ... the whole thing ... yes ...
..: ... part of the diorama ... part of the displays ...
..: ... think that's what we're talking about, just incorporating ...
..: .........
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.