THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
SUBJECT: Tejano Community Advisory Meeting
DATE: 1 May 1993
PLACE: Institute of Texan Cultures
MODERATORS: Cynthia E. Orozco, Jim McNutt
INFORMANTS: Liz Lyon, Grace Rosales
(background noise)
JM: Are we still missing someone? .....
CO: No.
JM: Yeah, I think we're all .......
JM: ... This is really something we haven't done before ... I was telling you on the way down the stairs ... ever been able to get a plan like this where we got to see a model ... most of the exhibits we've done ... one of the new assumptions for us is that basically we're going to take out everything ... and even in spite of what somebody said about the fountain back there, I don't think it's sacrosanct ... it's just you know, it's an engineering problem to move something like that, but you know, we can move those things. This is only for that ... Cynthia, you the ... I'm going to shut up now ... you're the committee member and ...
CO: Okay.
(background noise)
JM: Maybe I already punched the button ....
CO: Okay. Well, I guess one of the first things we want to do is get a sense of what you feel are the most important points or ideas that you think that this exhibit should convey. .... just feel free to say whatever you think and please don't feel limited by what you have heard or what you have seen, because this is an attempt to get your ideas out of the air a well, as to what you think needs to be included.
GR: I think one really important aspect of a community ... folks' identity and the community. To do ... not so much a barrio, but to do a neighborhood, you know, in the sense of ... I remember very typical ... I grew up here in San Antonio, I was born in Laredo, grew up here, very common was the, you know, the vendors ... the street ... the guy on the truck, you know, the ........, and the guy had a molino down on Nogalitos, but, you know, that was what he did in the morning, you know, after he closed the molino, the masa and all of that. So I would like to see something about the neighborhood that made it a community in itself, you know.
CO: The sense of ...
GR: Yes, and keeping that tie with, you know, the way things were. And it wasn't just the guy selling fruit and vegetables off the truck, but it was la platica, you know, and what sold and what so-and-so is doing down the street and around the block and you know, it was kinda like a communication network as well, and who was ill. So I'd like to see a lot of that ... that heart of the community, so far as the people, that you didn't, say, go out to the store, to H.E.B., to go buy stuff, you bought off the truck, you know.
..: .....Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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..: Yeah.
CO: You have something to add to that?
LL: I think she said it pretty well. And I think it was a sense of community. More than that, you know, there's that ... I heard once an African adage about ... it's a village that raises a child, you know, and that's the way it was in the neighborhood.
..: Yes.
LL: You didn't just have your parents. It was the extended family. The feeling of security that people had. And even though I think the families have broken down a lot, still ... part of that still remains. You know, where people help each other out and families raise each other's children and stuff like that. And the values get passed on in that sense. I don't know. I get a lot when people outside of the culture talk to me and ask - what's Tejano, what do you mean, you know, when you say you're Mexican-American - it's just an integration of thoughts and values and instead of us becoming totally 'American,' you're not ever American first, you're Mexicano first, but we've ... I don't know ... it's hard to say. So much of that has come back into the community where it's a real melding - you can't go to Mexico anymore and be Mexican, 'cause you're not. But, on the same thing, you can't move into a suburban neighborhood in Dallas because you're not going to fit, it's a coming together of those things. And I think that's Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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what I'd like to see is a true integration of those aspects. But, you were talking about when immigrants come in, you know, what level do they start in, what their foothold is in the community, the tiendas, the molino, you know, the painters, housepainters, stuff like that. The low-level economic jobs. And that's where people get a foothold in the community and then from there they just go up. But, and I'd like to see that, I think, reflected in a way in the exhibit. That they weren't just farmers, we weren't just brickmakers or housekeepers, like my mom was a maid, you know, they were more than that in the community. And I think that should be reflected. Does that make sense?
CO: Are there some other things that you think, other ideas or points that you want .....
GR: One thing that I would like to see - would be something like a family tree type thing to see the evolvement of a family, you know, like starting them out in New Mexico, you know, and tracing 'em back to a certain point and then bringing them up, and, just like, you know, of somebody over here and somebody finally made it across the Rio Grande and then where, ...
..: Uh-huh.
..
GR: ... you know, where ..... Alice, ....., you know, Cotulla, you know. And it's like that evolvement that ... that Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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migration.
..: Uh-huh.
GR: And maybe take a particular family that has gone up ... maybe up into the Panhandle, you know, up in Lubbock, you know, there are ranches up there.
..: Uh-huh.
GR: And maybe one that has ... because there were two groups that were mentioned ... those that have ... that were here before the Texas Revolution. You know they were here way back ...
CO: Uh-huh.
GR: ... during the Spanish settlement period. And they haven't gone from that point, you know, they're still there ...
CO: Uh-huh.
GR: And those that ... wherever they came from and have gone on to a different point. So I'd like to see maybe some family, you know, in focus.
LL: My family ......, settled where ... San Marcos ... they were the first ones there and then they left. They were flooded out. But they helped THE Powers, James Powers' Colony, he settled them in Refugio and they married the women in our family. And it's just been back and forth. During the Revolution they went back to Matamoras because they couldn't handle it, couldn't handle the heat. They lost their lands and then, you know, they started coming back. Into this last century my family Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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came back, well, didn't even come back, they never left that Matamoros/Brownsville area. Just back and forth. And came back to settle. And it's been continuous, it's like ... and my family's not atypical. There are a lot of families in Texas that reflect that. Back and forth. They were Spanish, then they were Mexican, they're Indian, then they're Tejano, then they were made American. It's really neat, in fact.
GR: Uh-huh. It's a whole different issue ... and I don't know ... The borderland aspect is going to be approached. You know, looking at Tejanos as a ... well, borderland in itself, sorta like you're talking about the Indians being a sovereign power and so on. And not that we have sovereignty, pero, it is a community, you know, ...
CO: Uh-huh.
GR: ... as such, it's not recognized in a political sense of granted sovereignty, but it does have political influence as well, but just the whole community ... the borderland area, you know, and there's a feeling. And it's a whole different feeling than when you mix with Mexican-American communities here in San Antonio and then you go to the border, to Laredo or San Ygnacio, down in there, ...
..: Uh-huh.
GR: ... and it's a whole different feeling.
..: Uh-huh.
LL: Well, the closer you get to the border, the more Mexicano Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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you are.
GR: Yes, exactly and the more ... it comes out ... it just draws you out.
LL: It comes out.
GR: Over here you've been, you know, stepping out this way ...
..: Okay. (laughter)
..: ... and over here it's like .....
..: Pull you back, yeah.
..: Crabs in a barrel.
..: Yeah, it's true.
..: It is true.
LL: Is there going to be a place here for ... it's been on my mind a lot lately because I've been doing some work on "The Image of the Virgen de Guadalupe." ...
CO: Uh-huh.
LL: ... is there going to be a place for her ... there is interpretative work?
CO: What would you suggest?
LL: I think it's a perfect example of mestizaje, I mean, how else in one image can you have both the Spanish and the Indian coming together? And into the 1900s you see her image used politically ...
..: Uh-huh.
LL: ... even towards the end of the 1800s you see her images Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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politically in the Revolutions in Mexico in the early 1900s. And into the '60s and '70s, her image became marked, it was made profane rather than sacrosanct, you know, she was brought out into the everyday community, and so her image, you know, the huelga.
..: Uh-huh.
LL: ... when people went on strike and stuff. They carry her placard. The Guadalupanas, you know, which are ... great community involvers that ...
..: Uh-huh.
LL: You go to a town and you're going to find a Guadalupana Society ...
..: Uh-huh.
LL: No matter how little it is.
..: Uh-huh.
LL: But the image itself of the Virgen, to me, is so representative of our culture.
..: Uh-huh.
LL: It's just the two things coming together, plus the colors, you know, what the colors have meant as far as an indigenous people, those blues, and the turquoises, was for the gods, she carries the promise of the next world in her pregnancy, she's pregnant, ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... she carries the sixth world .... Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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..: Uh-huh.
KK: .. and I think that's why her image is so strong in the Mexican-American community because she represents hope and that's how I've seen her used.
GR: Hope is, I think, a big part of the Tejano experience. Hope.
LL: Hope, la esperanza.
GR: And you're talking ... you start speaking about the Virgen de Guadalupe ... I was thinking that ... all the churches here in town, well, not all the churches, especially the churches on the Southside, you know, they have two or three times a year, every church has, you know, the trips down to San Juan de los Lagos, you know, and there they go and it's mostly women ...
..: Uh-huh.
GR: ... that pack those buses. I mean, you sign up early, 'cause you know, they're full.
..: Uh-huh.
GR: So, I mean, ... and they go several times every year, the different churches. So that's a lot of people that they're taking down there.
LL: I think it's in the women ...
..: Yes.
LL: ... that you see the continuity of the culture. 'Cause it's not really a woman's place to be out ... outside. I was talking to Dr. Baird, do you know Dr. Baird? At the Institute Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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... at the University.
JM: Gregg?
LL: Is that his first name? He's the division head.
JM: Yeah.
LL: Okay. He met with some of us. And he was saying how it seems a lot of Mexicanas ... Chicanas ... coming to school, that they do better than the Mexicanos do, better than the Chicanos do, but that they don't go on to graduate school. And I said, "Well, you know, for so long it was not expected of a Chicana to go to college, and when you did see one in college, it was because she wanted to be there ...... her parents wanted her to be there. And they ... she ... when a Chicana takes that step it's not done with any kind of notice and I think it's the same way in the culture, they do it because they want to and they see the value of holding the culture together. They're a continuance of it, and the activities in the church reflect that, they're the moral base for the whole culture. But it's on a very under - what's the word for iti? - it's not at an ostentatious level, like with the Mexicanas in school, you know, they're very intense, but they're quiet about it.
CO: What would be some artifacts that you would be interested in seeing in the exhibit? What are some of the material objects or things that you think would be interesting to include?
..: A pair of dice and a deck of cards. (laughter)
..: la loteria.Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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CO: Loteria?
..: Yeah.
GR: You know what I'd like to see - are ethnic foods and I mean, the type ...
LL: Yeah, but that gets so sterotypical.
GR: Yeah, it is sterotypical, but I think once you try to ... when you experience not being able to find it just anywhere. You know, if you want tortillas coloradas, you know, in Dallas you have to go to a certain part of town or you don't find them. Or make 'em, but who's going to make them? But, you know, you can't find them just anywhere. Are .....
LL: When you think about the tourists coming in to this exhibit, that's what they're gonna expect to see anyway. I mean, they are experiencing it out in the community.
GR: But don't you ever feel a sense of recognition and comfort and warmth when it's like, "Oh, yeah." You know, not so much with food, but like the mole mix and you know, with things that are so familiar, it's like, "Yeah, I remember that in my grandmothers' ..." you know what I'm saying.
LL: That's why I'm twenty pounds overweight.
GR: ... Exactly. But there are things that you identify with ....
..: .......
GR: ... immediately. And maybe things that you thought you had forgotten, you know.Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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LL: Yep, I guess you're right. And it's true. Food is real indicative of the culture.
LL: 'Cause it's food, it smells good, you're happy.
GR: Different aromatherapy? Aroma, ....... you know, having comino and garlic, you know, maybe some area have, I don't know, that would turn off some people, but I think, food. Certain things that, you know, you remember in your tias and so on.
LL: When I'm up there at the jacal and I grind corn, one of the first things that comes to mind, you know, when I first started doing it was making tamales.
..: Uh-huh.
LL: Because of the smell.
..: Uh-huh.
LL: I use food in the jacal to show the kids how the cultures have come together. 'Cause again, you know, like the Virgen, the food is an indicator of the diffusion, you know, of the coming together of the two cultures, because you can't have ... you couldn't have corn unless you have the Indians, but you couldn't have the fat to put it together unless you have the Spaniards.
CO: Right. Are there some things that you've heard about but have never seen and would like to see in the exhibit? Something maybe that your grandparents or other ancestors might have had or used that you've never seen that .....
LL: Yeah, the disco.Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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CO: What's a disco?
LL: A disco. You know, ...
CO: A disco.
LL: You know, what you cook the tripas on.
GR: The tripas?
..: The tripas on.
..: Uh-huh.
..: You know.
JM: Old iron skillet, flat ... those things?
LL: But in the fields, when people were farmers, some of the things that were used as part of the tractor - were used ... when you were out in the fields ...
JM: Were used ...
..: ... you'd take it and ...
JM: Oh, all right, converting the agricultural implement to ...
LL: ... to a cooking implement.
JM: They're harrowing disks, that's where they came from.
GR: You're kidding! (laughter) I didn't know that.
LL: The utility of the people.
..: Yes.
LL: How they could make one thing work for another.
..: I saw that when I was growing up.
LL: Our parents were wizards.
GR: You know, you almost have to sit and really recollect things Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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like that. That's what I meant about the food, things that you don't even think about anymore and yet will bring it to mind. And so, yes, I'd have to sit and think about my grandmother, 'cause she was a single woman, you know, single parent and, boy, she had to be very creative. I hadn't realized those .....
CO: Okay.
GR: ... inventions, that ingenuity.
CO: Okay. We probably will have an opportunity to create or produce a couple of videos. What are some of the themes or topics etcetera ... that you would like to include and you feel, again, are the most important or the most interesting things that should be done?
LL: I don't know if this is out of line, but what would be really neat to see - visually - well, to me I've always had a fondness, you know, for the older people, people who at the tail-end of the revolution, who have come back to what is really neat about being Mexicano or being Tejano, is seeing how the different shades of being Raza.
CO: You're talking about color?
LL: The color. Most people when they think of Mexicanos, you know, people who look like me, dark. But I have a nephew that has blue eyes, he's a baby and they'll probably end up turning gray. But people don't look at him and think of him as being mexicano. And to see that visually, to go to from someone who Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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looks Castilian to someone who looks quera, to someone who looks Indian.
..: Uh-huh
LL: And to tie in the fact that these are all the shades of the people.
GR: Uh-huh. That's what I thought was sorta amusing. I forget which speaker was saying about the new maniquins and how they have ... you know, ...
LL: Ethnic features.
GR: Yeah. And I thought, yeah, right. Which one ...
..: Yeah, sure.
GR: How are you going to choose? .....
LL: They were European, I mean, .........
GR: And I think maybe that would be something to visually portray.
..: Uh-huh.
GR: You know, it is not one sterotypical, you know, feature or ........
LL: Like they all have the braids.
GR: Yes, yes.
..: Uh-huh.
GR: You know, just the mixture. Because I know I have cousins that would pass for, you know, they would not be Mexican ..... You'd walk by and they would not be Mexican to you.
..: Uh-huh.Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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GR: And so I think it's very difficult to pinpoint that. But maybe some effort ought to be made to ... well, to show the diversity ...
..: Uh-huh.
GR: ... in what is ... who is Mexican.
..: What is Mexican.
GR: Yes, exactly. What is Mexican.
LL: What is Mexican, it's a rainbow ...
GR: And for people to see it for themselves, I mean, to conclude for themselves, hey, we're all different. Not for it to be ... here it is and they're all different ... but ... and it's like what do you get out of this? They're different.
LL: Well, what's the common thread?
GR: It's the culture. It's the religion, politics ...
..: .....
LL: ... I think, why have Mexicanos traditionally been Democrats?
..: Right.
LL: Now not so much, and I don't know how you'd be able to bring that across.
GR: ...... that's why we ..... The space is small you know, for the different developments of the Tejano, it's just so many ways. You know, in looking at politically and economically and I think the women also is an area that needs to be brought out. Because you were talking about the church and the women Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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being a major force in that ...
..: ......
GR: and the women being the ones that transfer the culture and so on. But politically, women, you know, have had their own history ...
LL: Had their day, yeah.
GR: Exactly. And I think that ought to be traced back too. Which is sort of counter to the culture ...
LL: Stereotypes.
GR: ... exactly. And counter to the culture too, I think more so at another time period than now. But I think that's real important to see the emergence of the Mexicana, the Tejana.
..: ........
LL: The abuetitas were a big part of the Revolution and that may have been where women got the strength to say "Well, you know, we're here too." Part of ... I don't know if that transferred over into the people coming over here, but, you know, when I think of women like my grandmother who survived the Revolution and came into a country where they didn't know the language and did well .......
GR: Uh-huh. And never learned it either.
LL: That says a lot for the parent. Right. And never learned it. She never had to. And the things that they brought over from Mexico. I think the Revolution changed women, not just changed the country of Mexico, but changed the women and that Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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came over with them.
GR: It changed .... it changed Texas too, because of that infusion. My grandmother also came over because of the Revolution and the raiding of the towns, the pueblos for the men and the young men, and so on. And that's why she came and it made her very ... fiercely independent til her last day.
CO: Do you have more thoughts on videos or artifacts or ideas that you want to include?
GR: Could I ... I wrote it down on, before you all move on. In the videos, I know they mentioned earlier about presentations and so forth, programs and what not, which I think is a great idea. You know, sort of like what the Witte does and the SAMA does, too. I don't know if you've seen that program at the Guadalupe, well, it's not there any more, ...
LL: Las Tamaleras?
GR: Las Tamaleras. Something like that, maybe segments of that.
CO: Of the play?
GR: Well, yes. Uh-huh, as a play or maybe something in the foods, you know, las tamaleras, you know, women trying to recapture their roots, on what their grandmothers used to do.
..: Uh-huh.
GR: And we're losing it. And I think that's a real important part of Tejanos and that we're losing a lot of that Mexican connection and you were saying about the neighborhood how Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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everybody knew everybody and if you did something two blocks down, it'd get down to your house pretty soon ...
..: Uh-huh.
gr: ... and so it was a sense of security, you know, that your kids were being watched by everybody.
ll: Well, you needed that security because I mean, face it, politically we were still, I mean, we were segregated, right?
..: Took care of ourselves.
LL: Yeah, we had to take, the community had to take care of itself in order just make it to the next generation.
LL: What about having ... I mean, I wasn't keen about having the botanica or having the curanderismo aspect to it because that's a big part of the community. You know, the mysticism and the medicine, which again in the duality of the culture.
GR: Maybe that would be something to also have as a presentation - a curandera or curandero. You know, to comment at certain times - whatever.
LL: .... this time of the year in the jacal ... this time of the year when things are coming up at home, sort of out of Boerne, I'll bring things in and show the kids, and this was for this and this was for this and then you could make dyes out of it, I mean that's an early part of our history but, I mean, there's still the botanicas which are very big hits in the community. And I think it's just a continuance.
GR: And I think it'd be important, especially for people that Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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are not familiar with curanderismo, is that if it were to be done - botanicas and curanderos and so on - that it be not treated as a sort of voodo type, you know, there be some sort of .....
LL: Legitimacy.
GR: Yes, exactly, you know, medical experiments or information that have contributed, you know, to some of the herbs, okay, and I know ..... some of the stuff is still ... some are still very speculative. But you know, there is some credibility to it.
..: Uh-huh.
GR: So I'd like to see balance.
CO: If we were to focus on a couple of different kinds of work situations or occupations that Tejanos have had, which ones do you think would be interesting or important to include, if we were going to talk about labor or work?
LL: Talk about labor.
LL: Labor. I think ... Well, obviously there are two aspects here, the agriculture, which is foremost, you know, what people see, and it's true, it's a big part of the culture, you can't get away from that, then you have urban people. And as far as ... I think it would be good to show both.
JM: Do you think ...........
LL: Not that Mexicanos weren't just farmers or weren't, aren't just migrant workers. But there's this other aspect, too.
LL: But, what would be a good depiction of an urban sort of Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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environment of work? ... I mean, you'd need almost everything ...
JM: ..........
..: Uh-huh.
GR: I think a transitional point for the Mexicano here in San Antonio was the post - World War II - well, World War II and post World War II era, in which you had the military participation and that was a big - I won't say breakthrough, but that was a major road of assimilation, you know.
..: .....
GR: Yes, but for men. Yes. And another area, especially for here in San Antonio is the civil service jobs. You know, in the 50s and so on they were opening up and I think there is where you begin to have a lot of the middle class of the Tejano here in San Antonio begin to rise and I know this drew from my family's experience, drew a lot of people from Laredo, from the border, up here, because the jobs were up here. So you stayed with the job 'cause in Laredo, you knew there was nothing. And so I think, you know, when I think of jobs, Tejanos, it's a lot of civil service. I wonder what the proportion is?
CO: What about the issue of region and geography and locale, how do you see us forging a balance in trying to deal with regional representation?
GR: Well, when you say 'region,' what do you mean, within Tejas itself?Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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CO: Yes. Uh-huh.
GR: Sort of like the Valle and El Paso ...
CO: Yes. Uh-huh.
GR: ... and so on. Well, I've never lived in El Paso, I've never really been through there, just passing through. And I haven't been to the Valle in a long time. And I don't know if they're similar. I just know the Laredo area, the San Ygnacio area. And of course, it must be different because I believe it's the largest international border crossing area, three bridges ...
CO: The largest what?
..: International crossing ...
CO: Oh.
GR: ... the traffic, and so I don't know if it would be different. But I would think, I would imagine it would be.
..: Uh-huh. Very different.
LL: I think you start seeing - there's a lot of difference when you get south of San Antonio, when you go south of San Antonio, it's more intense. When you're in San Antonio and going north it's not as intense. And again it has to do with the location to the border. Regionally, I mean, there were people - I grew up in Corpus - and there were fisherman owned their own shrimpboats and stuff up and down the coast and you wouldn't expect Mexicanos to be shrimpers, but they were, my cousins were. In El Paso you're going to have more of, I would Cynthia Orozco, Jim McNutt
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think, more of the Indian influence, or the desert, that sort of thing. It's going to be hard to pinpoint a region, because people are going to adapt to the geographical, to the natural aspects of their area.
JM: May I interject one question .....
CO: Yes, uh-huh.
JM: With respect to that regionalization, can you think of experiences where ..... El Paso, and the Valley, and Houston .... may have had an occasion to interact? .... because that kind of interaction brings some of those regional things to the floor sometimes .... I don't know what they are ...... there might be ......
LL: The musicians. The musicians would travel. Like Little Joe. We were on the way to Colorado, we were in Lubbock and we ran into the guy.
LL: The musicians, I think, would have brought some of it. Like, San Antonio is a real cumbia town.
..: (laughter)
..: Texas is a real polka town.
..: (laughter) Corpus is polka?
..: Yeah. (laughter)
..: San Antonio is cumbia and when I was in Wisconsin, University of Wisconsin, some guys came, Los .......
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT ..... MINUTES.
SIDE 2. BLANK.THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
SUBJECT: Tejano Community Advisory Meeting
DATE: 1 May 1993
PLACE: Institute of Texan Cultures
MODERATOR: Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
INFORMANTS: Bob Benevides, Cynthia Perez
CO: ... one of the questions we wanted to ask was - what are some other topics that you think it would be interesting to see in the theater format? That would be on the floor itself?
BB: Theater format. Okay. To view the lifestyle, we already mentioned before that within your diagram you have the Franciscans and you have the little ... evidently ... it says 'and child', I guess you mean an Indian convert, Christian type, and you have the vaqueros, but you don't have the Spanish Colonial military presence which was evidenced by presidos and all and that's where a lot of the ... not only Spanish, but mestizos came up from Mexico.
CO: Okay.
BB: And for people to understand the technology of their day, you could have somebody demonstrating ... for instance, a flintlock musket that was used or the ... the accoutrements, explaining the ..... all these things, the soldado de cuera, of course.
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: Why they wear leather jackets, of course, to protect against Indians arrows. But the loading, I mean, even the terms that have been translated into English and into Spanish was .... - have you ever heard the term "lock, stock and barrel?"
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: That's addressing the 18th century - how about "half-cocked" - ...
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: ... didn't go off ... "flash-in-the-pan." All of these elements were part of the military man, no matter where he was in America. And also, a part of that demonstration of what it was like to be a poor dog-soldier in the presidos on the western frontier was the fact that he also had to be a vaquero part of the time and mailman and ...
..: ........
BB: ... a mailman or go get the pay from Saltillo, you know, for the troops.
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: He also wound up being, some of them wound up being a part of the American Revolution.
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: Now, there's some changes, including that area, that I think need to be kind of updated a little bit. But that aspect, while they talk about us being isolated here, we also had a connection up that Camino Real, we celebrated three centuries of ...
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: ... goes all the way up to Apoloosas and thru New Orleans, up to San Augustine and all like that. And it also goes in Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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this other direction to ......... Mission to San Diego through El Paso and all. Modern day descendant of Camino Real, east and west, called IH-10.
CO: Okay.
BB: So, you know, that thing ... that chapter about our American Revolutionary connection ... contribution of .... goes back ......
CO: Okay. Do you have some ideas of maybe some things that you think might be good to ....
CP: I think in looking at the space and going up there and I haven't been up there in awhile ..... but I'd like to see and especially in work ... and I worked with children and I think that a lot of these things need to be brought to life. Because you go up there and you see something behind a glass, you see something ... it's not to me ... not realistic and not true to life, but I think in the culture and we're talking about these Tejanos and Chicanos and Mexican ... whatever ... in our mind we're very alive and I think that we need something that looks like it's alive and living and moving and changing ...
CO: Okay.
CP: ... and always active. More than something that we have .........
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: All that living history.
CO: Uh-huh.Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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BB: Like they have at Williamsburg and other places. Living history is ... to me that's the future, low-tech way of teaching.
CP: I think ... and even if she was doing the explanation up there. If you could incorporate some of that into part of the exhibit as well - changing, different things at different times.
CO: Uh-huh.
CO: Uh-huh.
CP: ... and have that on-going, so that visitors could come to this place ...
CO: Uh-huh.
CP: ... and actually get to see some of these. And they don't have to be very long, it's just something that occurs and happens and they can watch and it's alive and ...
CO: Okay. Do you know of any groups or anybody out there that's doing this, out there, in the schools or in any community setting?
BB: I think I do. I think I do and it's a matter of developing. They're doing it out of their own personal hobby, interest.
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: I know one individual's that's now working with the National Part Service ...
CO: Who's that?
BB: Hovey Cowles. He'd been volunteering for, you know, well over a year, a couple of years, and he made his own soldado de cuera uniform and he would go on Sundays when he had time. Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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And he would spend time over there at Mission San Jose and the people would come in there and he would ... that little section where supposedly the soldiers were stationed and what-not ... to teach the Indians and what-not ... he would teach, he would explain to them all these things.
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: And people would just kinda cluster around ... when he ... like you see ... he made comments ... when they come in I start talking, says, "All the Rangers go inside and take a coffee break, you know." (laughter) He says, no problem.
CP: I think that's more important, because you do, you come to a place like this and a lot of things you see ... the vidoes are very good, I think, because they're very active and they can give you a lot of visual ...
..: Uh-huh.
CP: ... Children are real tuned in to visual and now education is going more to hands-on, more active and I think that keeps people interested. And obviously hearing, you know, another thing is, we talk about our history and we talk about, you know, ... my grandmother used to say this ... " my grandmother ....", she taught me about this. And we used to ... we're brought up to listening to a lot of these stories and things, so maybe some of us got ...... brought to where we come in, we see it, we focus, and get to listen, we get to see, we get to touch, I think it makes a big difference ...Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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..: Uh-huh.
CP: ... a person likes mmore than just seeing something under a glass ...
..: Right.
CP: ... or behind a glass ...
..: Right.
..: ... or enclosure ...
BB: Interactive. Interactive. I thought of two other things. I had mentioned at the other table about - you know, it's funny, this lady spoke to us about the smells, sights, smells, etc.
..: Oh, that's big.
BB: You know, etc. Sounds.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: The fact that I thought that coming into the 20th century they ought to have a small glasscase panaderia with all the pan dulces, the different types that are here and to have, like you generate artificial perfume smell, ...
..: Uh-huh.
BB: ... generate those smells. Everybody's walked in ... (laughter) Right?
..: (laughter)
BB: And there's a reason - they put it out there on purpose ...
..: Oh, yeah, yeah ...Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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BB: ... and even this other lady who she works here says, "I'm from Iowa and it drives me crazy." Think of the people who come from all over the world can kind of ( inhales ) "God, that smells good!"
..: (laughter)
BB: Right. Haven't we experienced that?
..: .......
BB: And that's part of the culture. That's a smell. The other is addressing, for instance, chile con carne.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: Chile con carne was invented right here in San Antonio. Let's talk about that, of course, all south Texas, let's talk ... it wasn't from Mexico. Of course, the pinto beans ... you don't find down there, you find 'em here.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: The different variations of food, use of chiles, etc., the spices. But let's talk about chile con carne.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: So that instead of people ... we don't want to have people come in here, "Oh, that's Taco Bell."
..: Yeah.
BB: That's California, man, I'm sorry. Just like low-riders, that's California. Some of us may want to imitate it, but ... okay. The other interactive is, I remember when I was ... in my old neighborhood, and no telling how far back this went, Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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remember the old houses, they all used to have porches ...
..: Porches?
BB: ... and you had a swing.
CP: and you swang ... you sat on the porch ...
BB: Big, wide swing, right? And in the evening ...
..: ... every evening ...
BB: ... after supper you'd sit there, just at twilight, you'd talk and lots of ...... traffic'd go by, but you ...., people used to walk a lot more and you see ... and you'd wave, "Hi, how are you doing?", the neighbors walking back and forth.
..: .......
BB: And the kids would sit around ....... playing and we hear the grandmothers tell all the tales, right?
..: ......
BB: How about sitting on one of those and having one of the docents or somebody from the Institute tell old tales, old stories?
..: Uh-huh.
BB: Story of .......
CP: Porches are big. Porches are gathering places for families at the end of the day because we grew up in a rural area, but we had our backyard and in our backyard we all came ... my grandfather lived down the street, and he'd come, ... my grandmother would come ... my mother would make ice tea, we'd all sit outside, you know, and in the evening ... rather Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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than go inside and watch TV ... we never spent time watching television. That wasn't you know, ... and today, I don't watch television much, my husband loves it, but I feel like .... it wasn't part of what I was ... when we were growing up, we went outside, we sat together, after dinner or after the day was done and we'd talk and everybody would come together. The children would play, ....... kids were running around and there was an outdoors a porch-type of setting, which is ... I think was a big part of it because that's where the stories were shared and the culture ... the history of the family was brought out ...
BB: Yes.
..: ... and then all the legends ...
..: Uh-huh.
CP: ... they were all brought out. That's something that's alive and that's moving, that's occuring ... Because she mentioned earlier about - you want to leave ... an artist does things and you want to leave an emotional impression. And I think the culture is very emotional.
..: Uh-huh.
CP: And we want people to come away with the feeling of this emotion when they're actually participating or involved in an exhibit rather than, like I said earlier, just a very .... something that is behind a glass case, something that is actually happening ......Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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..: Uh-huh.
BB: ..... some of these kids would like some of the kids like to sit on that big, wide swing, you know, with somebody, with a little - squeak, squeak - (laughter) right?
..: Uh-huh.
CO: Okay, one of the things, naturally, we're going to have to deal with some themes and others we will not be able to deal with. I was given a list of various themes, let me just read them off and then we can discuss some - education, religion, work, class, public and private spheres, gender, race, poverty, discrimination, organizational ...., civil rights, political enpowerment, artistic expressions, sexuality. What, to you, are the major themes, or the major areas that we should explore? .... and perhaps ......
..: These are just kind of major, over-arching themes, not necessarily specifics.
BB: I never felt that ... this is my own experience ... I never felt that our family in trying to strive to, you know, to have economic gain and development, parents always set goals for us. I never felt that they tried to bring us up as 'separated,' Hispanics, Mexicans, whatever. They always tried to bring us up as just a part of the community. And it was actually a number of years before I ever experienced anything that made me feel that I was, quote, "any different." It's unfortunate that ... and this is something that ought to be brought up ... Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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it was mentioned the other day ... something negative ... that's part of it. In my generation you were punished for speaking Spanish, that you might have learned in the home, you were punished for speaking Spanish in school. Not only in class, because most of the teachers didn't understand it, obviously, ...
CP: ... even outdoors.
BB: Out there at recess, you were punished. Okay. So we went through a generation, everybody was told, "Well, if you learn to speak English and don't speak Spanish, you won't have an accent." And that'll make you what? A more accepted or a better American? I'm not sure. But, because of that, Spanish is now a second language, as opposed to a dual language.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: And my children now, need to take Spanish to re-learn it. It was funny that now, all of a sudden in recent years, when you put a resume in, you almost need, and they've talked about it for years, was right hand, left hand, they'd tell you, don't do this, but it's good to know Spanish, but now if you want a good job in the San Antonio or in the Texas area if you don't know Spanish you're handicapped. You might as well be a secretary that doesn't know typing.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: And it's considered quite an ability, you know, and it's expected now.Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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..: Uh-huh.
BB: And it doesn't matter what your last name is, if you come from Iowa, you're expected to learn Spanish if you don't know how because it's going to help you in your future career. And the attitudes have changed so much, it's a matter of acceptability.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: And that needs to be addressed as to within our education context - what was and what is now.
..: Uh-huh.
CP: I think earlier we brought up the issue of discrimination and a generation that ... for example, my mother and her family in terms of their migrant workers and the whole segregation issue and everything they faced. And we're talking about that earlier in the group about how do you bring that out without necessarily making a very negative or making the people ... the race the victims of this type of treatment. But it was a part of a certain generation and it's something they grew up with and there are stories that my mother tells and my family tells of when they were migrant workers and some of the things that they were faced with and things. So I think some of these issues probably do need to be addressed and need to be brought up because they part of ....... This Spanish language thing, you know, my mother tells the story of about being slapped on the hand ...Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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CO: My mother tells the same story.
CP: ... yeah, so it's a big part of that, at least that generation.
BB: Those who were slapped younger, lost it quicker, right?
..: Yeah.
BB: And it's harder to reclaim. In bringing up the humanity of that, I remember a friend of mine at the University of Texas, he was from Corpus. He talked about - his parents were migrant workers - and growing up in a truck, back of a truck with a canvas on it, ....... he remembers as a little boy when you washed up in the morning, he said during the winter you'd go out there and you'd have a faucet and a bucket, he says, he remembers many a morning he go in there and he'd have to break a piece of ice on top to wash his hands. And wash his face. And what you'd do is bring in the humanity of the people to survive and yet you also go back to ... let's go back to other issues. Let's go back to the most negative image, the Alamo.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: Okay. In addressing that, I always ... in doing my walking for the Sons of The Republic ... you don't have a Benevides as past-president of the Sons of The Republic very often ... but I created this during the Sesquicentennial.
..: And you were past ...
BB: Oh, twice past-president of the Travis Chapter, which is the San Antonio Chapter of the Sons of The Republic, you see, Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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I address all flags because I've been here since 1731. So in addressing that I talk about the fact that ... about the men and women on both sides ... we work with some of these living history people from the Sons ... the San Antonio Living History Association ... and we dress as soldiers and men on both sides and go around the perimeter of the walls out in the plaza - not on the curb - we stay off the state property - for a lot of reasons ...
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: ... But we interpret the fact that, "Hey, this was ..." everybody realizes that the Civil War split families ... all these movies and books about it, right?
CO: Right.
BB: This was not a black and white, it wasn't a racial fight, it wasn't a good guy - bad guy ... it was a constitutional fight. And you get into Centralist versus Federalist and all that and why you had a red, white and green 1824 flag flying at the Alamo. And why Ben Milan fought and died under that as well as Losoya and when you have Texans here, native Texans, for generations, who have armies coming into their own backyard from a thousand miles in both directions, they're going to fight right here in your own backyard, but what do you do, do you have to pick a stand? Which side do you take? What about your family? What do you do for them? Get them out of harm's way? Hard decisions are made.Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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CO: Uh-huh.
BB: And that's why I tell them, there was five political viewpoints, three of 'em were on the inside of the wall, two of 'em on the outside. So, you know, realizing the humanity of it, and that's ... that goes back to a different era, but sometimes we have to address the experience ...
CO: Right.
BB: ... of the native Texans during the most famous period of San Antonio.
CO: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
BB: And make 'em realize that, hey, it's that image, there was no hump on that building and it was a lot bigger than ...
..: (laughter)
BB: ... It was first a mission, if it's hallowed ground, it's twice hallowed, once as a Christianized mission and the other as a battle-site.
CO: Okay. You have some other general thoughts or ideas? No, that was me.
CP: What were some of the things you mentioned?
CO: Oh, education, religion, work, social class, public and private spheres, gender, race, proverty, discrimination, organization, civil right, political empowerment, artistic expression, sexuality.
CP: I know we discussed religion earlier in terms of how it's a big part of at least the - I guess the culture in terms -Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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not necessarily - maybe Catholicism is a big part, I mean obviously it is a big part, and ..... Catholicism but in the sense that - you're talking about altares and las promesas and things like that so we ..... touched on that earlier and thought maybe that should be in the exhibit.
CO: Uh-huh.
..: Somewhere, somehow.
CO: Uh-huh.
..: Because that was a big part of our ... at least where I grew up ...
CO: Uh-huh.
CP: ... a very big part of our culture .... our grandmothers' abuelitas, it's always been, I think, the grandmothers who bring it all together ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... so that we discussed that earlier.
..: Okay.
..: I don't know if you guys touched on that.
BB: How about the law? Is it ....... I mentioned the Spanish Colonial Law, let's talk about Mexican-American Law in that I think that over the years we strove to represent ourselves, not only as a part of this community that other governments and cultures came to us, we were here ...
..: Uh-huh.
BB: But the fact that we are equal and have contributed equally, Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildalgo did one thing for the people between San Antonio and the Rio Grande, it made 'em, with a signature on the piece of paper, citizens, American citizens of the United States, with all the rights as such and the fact that you had immigrants still coming, as we do today, from across the river, ...
..: Uh-huh.
BB: ... they were all treated the same. Those who were born here and were suddenly American citizens should have had certain rights, and they were not addressed, of course, it goes back to the ranchos and the lands and all these things that had happened. But going into the turn of the century and into their service in the military, it should be brought up that not only Chicanos, but Hispanics have more traditional Medals of Honor in the military than any other ethnic group. The other is you mentioned Gus Garcia. He and Judge Cardenas ...
..: Cardena.
BB: Yeah. They addressed the fact, that during ... after World War II ... along with Gus ... the Supreme Court rulings and other rulings, not only them, but others, you realize that there were incidents that whereby you had to ... I mean ... the term "white" was used advisably and it's still a color, it's not a race ...
..: Uh-huh.
BB: Nevertheless, in the interpretation of the law, he got Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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a ruling that that's what's required rather than "caucasian" or something else, he got it ruled that Mexicans ... Mexican-Americans were white and thus had all the other rights of the others, because there used to be discrimination about who could go in what park, who could be buried in what cemetery, and we had a case where there was a young man who was a war hero, World War II, and back in the Valley you saw a reference to it in the movie "Giant" ...
CO: Uh-huh. Longoria.
BB: ... they didn't want to bury him ... uh?
CO: Longoria.
BB: You know him? Okay. They didn't want to bury him in that cemetery. And all the ramifications of law about that ... so, in other words, you have laws going back to three centuries now, and the fights that have had to be, you know, overcome, and I think that some of that .....
..: Rights.
BB: So that people stop saying, for instance, if you say the terms "Mexican" or "Anglo" you're either one or the other, you're either "white" or you're "black." Well, or "oriental."
..: Uh-huh.
BB: Well, then you have, just like "Chicano," you have "brown," came in in 1962, you never saw the word "Chicano" in print ...
..: Uh-huh.
BB: ... before 1962, I'm sorry, it's "Taco Bell." Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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..: Uh-huh.
BB: Okay? It's not a historically correct term.
..: (laughter)
BB: Okay? No, it's a cultural term.
CO: Why 1962? Where do you get that date from?
BB: That's the earliest I saw it in print, ever.
CO: Oh, really?
BB: Or talker/lecturer ... you look in any book, any sociological or historical book , you will not see it. Okay? Now ...
..: .......
BB: Yeah, it was a street term, wasn't it? Okay. But historically, the people from LULAC, who founded LULAC, they considered that ... that's a pachuca word, I'm sorry ...
..: I know in the Valley it was ........
BB: Okay, so you saw some of that reaction.
..: You were not ......
BB: You also saw people in the video, not one of them made reference to their Spanish heritage. It was an Indian, or Mexican, or Chicano. Now, I blame that, slightly on a little bit of ignorance. And that's part of what this can show ... this whole blend of three centuries.
..: .....
BB: Some of the architecture ...... like I said was lost. Okay.Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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..: Uh-huh.
BB: Well, anyway, that's all I wanted to say about the laws and how it's affected our ... the context of our lives over the centuries and that we ... from the beginning ... from helping with the American Revolution all the way to establishing, whether required or not or have rights for this or where we can be buried, that's a constant fight to what? Re-identify ourselves under the law?
..: Uh-huh.
BB: The law that will, many of them that we created, ... I can go on to other things .....
..: Uh-huh.
BB: But .....
CP: No, I think that's a good ... obviously because, again there is not a lot of knowledge ... especially ... I mean, it is not taught in schools ...
BB: Nope, it's not.
CP: And it may not be passed on in the family, because we may not again be aware of it, and unless you're from any of these areas where these people are from ...
..: Uh-huh.
CP: ... for example, Gus Garcia. You don't know who Gus Garcia is, ...
..: Uh-huh.
CP: ... I mean I grew up in the Valley, I didn't know who Gus Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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Garcia was.
BB: He was one big change.
CP: But to me he was Gus Garcia, in my upbringing ... I never knew him ...
CO: Of course.
CP: ... until I moved to San Antonio and it was like - Gus Garcia. So, again, you know, you have these, obviously, some place ... some of this education should go on. So that even ourselves, as Tejanos, become aware ......
BB: A perfect subject for Gallery Theater.
..: Uh-huh.
CO: What's that?
BB: Pefect subject for Gallery Theater, a character of Gus Garcia and one of his associates along with maybe some third person who is maybe a judge or another lawyer ...
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: ... or somebody like that, addressing the aspects of what they argued before the Supreme Court.
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: People will hear things that ... "My gosh, that existed?"
..: Uh-huh.
BB: Oh, yes.
CP: I think so. I think ....
BB: Yeah, that's an excellent subject.
CP: ... when you see it acted out it means a whole lot more Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
22
than when you read it. Because I can sit down and read a little pamphlet or I can read one of those little blocks on the wall that they have on the wall upstairs ...
BB: Yeah.
..: Uh-huh.
CP: ... and it doesn't say anthing to me, you know. I need to hear it, I need to see it. And when I hear it and then all of a sudden it makes a lot of sense. And I think that's really important, that ....... having the whole living history, involved in what's in the exhibit, I think makes a big difference.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: Sure.
CP: Possibly all exhibits should be done that way because it brings a lot more to the exhibit than just ....
..: Uh-huh.
CP: ... words on the wall. Because that would bring a lot of information out that we don't have.
BB: One small element might be added because ... you might want run into a series of maybe, ten different vignettes ...
CO: Uh-huh.
CP: Yeah, that would be great ...
BB: ... of different eras ... of over three centuries ...
..: Uh-huh.
BB: ... is, believe it or not, to raise ... say they are going Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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to be addressing it, raise up the flag, whatever flag it is, incidently, there's more than just the Spanish and Mexican flags, you have the Green Flag of 1813 and the 1824 Red, White and Green, the Coahuila Texas, period, on and on and on. Confederate flag. What about the Tejanos during the Confederate period?
..: Uh-huh.
BB: See. Blows people's minds.
..: Right.
CP: It's that initial shock I was talking about, right? (laughter)
BB: It's like the Texas Connection with the ... yeah, the Texas Connection with the American Revolution, the name of that book. I've given talks on that, just like ..... and people are going "What? I'm from Virginia and I've never heard of this."
..: What?
BB: And I say, "That's right." And where are most of the history textbooks written from? From the northeast perspective.
CO: Uh-huh.
BB: And what was West of the Mississippi, you know? Nothing?
..: Uh-huh.
CO: Nothing. (laughter)
BB: Okay. Our textbooks also address our context ... how many Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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of 'em have books that say, "Stephen F. Austin was the Father of Texas." like George Washington was the Father of America, right?
..: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
BB: Okay, this is the man who came to the Spanish governor's palace in a province and state that had laws that was founded before there was a United States of America, with land laws and ranch laws and religion. And they have a governor and he's come hat in hand to ask his permission to bring some immigrants into this country at the time.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: And he's turned down initially, but finally with the intercession of Baron de Bastrop, he gets success, so he gets permission to bring in 300 families and this man asking permission, is the Father of our country?
..: Uh-huh.
BB: What does that say about all the people that where here in this country ...
CP: That were already here.
BB: ... that were already here but had established society and government? It means they didn't count.
..: Right.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: They didn't count. And so that's the thing, like Henry Guerra liked to say, "He wasn't really the Father of Texas, Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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maybe he was the Step-Father." (laughter)
..: Uh-huh.
BB: He also liked to say, "The first Europeans that founded Texas, did not speak English."
..: Uh-huh.
CP: You see, that doesn't come up in ......
BB: No.
CP: ... in textbooks, ...... education, there's this whole history in our up-bringing that's missing, that's not there ...
..: Uh-huh.
CP: ... and because we were never taught it and so we don't know it ...
..: Uh-huh.
CP: So that's important.
BB: You can't be proud of something you don't know about.
CP: You can't because you don't know anything about it.
..: Uh-huh.
CP: I mean, it's just like we worked with Leslie in making videos for minority kids, and we always put in ... we try to put in a minority role model, because we grew up, I grew up watching videos at school and there were no Mexicanos on these videos ...
CO: Uh-huh.
CP: I noticed that they weren't like me, so it didn't make Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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any sense to me, so I think that's important, we need to bring out things that make us proud of who we are, and give us a history and to determine where we come from, other than what we've been taught and what, you know, we learned through the school systems.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: Genealogy should be promoted. We ...
CO: How would you do something like that?
BB: Well, I'm trying to think, I'm trying ... for instance, let's go back to the swing where the kids are sitting there and maybe sitting around on the carpet or around in a circle around there, and you have whoever is the actor or whatever talking about - "You know, your grandmother and great-great grandfather ...." - go all the way back. And maybe suggest that they address - this is a social science - that they ... I support genealogy not because ... because genealogy is a very personal history ...
..: Uh-huh.
BB: ... you're into it deeply and you try to explain it to others outside the family ...
CP: Boring!
BB: ... it's boring. (laughter) It's kinda like showing slides of your vacation. "Hey man, that's fine, but I went on vacation too, you want to see my slides?" "No, never mind!" Uh?
..: Unh-huh.Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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BB: But that, if you put it within the context of the evolution of the history of this State ...
CO: Of the period. But most genealogists are not ... cannot do that.
BB: Uh? Well, you don't go into ... and so-and-so married so-and-so and they had six children ..., you can't go into that detail.
..: Uh-huh.
..: .........
BB: You talk about when they came to Texas and how they came, you know, why, what they did and you know, at the time they came they were having this happen and that happen.
CO: Well, if I may, let me ask you this - are there people out there that have the ability to do those two things? Do you know of some people that can do both of those things?
BB: I think there are some, there are some. Finding the ones that are able to separate and realize that the main purpose there is to instruct and to educate and interpret rather than tell their own personal history. In fact, the best thing is to have a person interested in doing that is to have somebody else's history so they don't go too deep in that particular genealogy but merely put in a contextual evolution of families within the State. In doing that I always felt that genealogy, passed from the old porch, ...
..: Uh-huh.Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
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BB: ... if you can get kids to be interested in it, again they'll know why they should be proud, but something else happens, ever heard the term "generation gap?" Okay. All of a sudden the smallest of the children in the family don't go to the parents, they go to the grandparents, if they're fortunate to have them still alive.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: And all of a sudden they're asking, "I've got this project ... this term paper or whatever at school - bla-bla-bla. Where do we come ... where did you live and when?" All of a sudden they both sit down and they start talking, the generation gaps disappears and the grandparents feel good about it and then maybe the son or the daughter that are the parents says, "I didn't know that!" "Well, you never asked me!" You know. And it brings them together in a greater continuity, that's why I think that's the positive way a tool could be used, genealogy could be used for education.
..: Uh-huh.
BB: And the fact that you put it in a time-line of what also happened to other people, .... see, like what happened here in 1776 in San Antonio, people are thinking, "Nothing, absolutely, nothing."
CP: There was nothing going on here! (laughter)
BB: Oh, right, we were having a siesta or something, eh? (laughter) And see, that's why ... you speak up and you say, Cynthia E. Orozco (Tape 2)
29
"Whoa, wait a minute!" You know. It was a lot. It all depends on your viewpoint, so genealogy could be addressed so that when they go back to their schools ...
..: Uh-huh.
BB: ... they could ....
END OF TAPE, 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2. - BLANK.THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
SUBJECT: Tejano Community Advisory Meeting
DATE: 1 May 1993
PLACE: Institute of Texan Cultures
MODERATOR: ................
(TAPE 3, SIDE 1 - BLANK)
..: You know I haven't see it in a long time. (laughter) I mean, I still buy white flour ... White Wings Flour because it's here in San Antonio, you know. (laughter) But ...
..: It's a ..... like this, ...
..: Right.
..: ... put it on the stove in a pot, it's always used for starch.
..: And you cooked it! And then you had to ...
..: Yeah.
..: There was a whole procedure you went through to starch your clothes. 'Cause you had to let it work into the material, everything was wet, let it work in the material, then you put it in the refrigerator. To keep it fresh!
..: Oh. And it comes out beautiful.
..: Yeah.
..: Call that a ritual?
..: It's a ritual. Yes.
..: Well, if you wanted your clothes pressed nicely, that's what you did! (laughter) You know, my mother ...
..: Do you call that a ritual?Cynthia Orozco (Tape 3)
2
..: Yeah. My mother gave me this dress that fit her when she was in her mid-thirties and she gave it to me to keep and I still have it. And it's this beautiful sun-dress and I remember seeing how she looked in it, with the starched little bows right here and the starched flair, you know, flair to it.
..: Yeah. I don't know if you have gone through this, but I remember having three dresses ...
..: Yeah, I had uniforms, skirts and shirts.
..: ... and grandma made me those dresses, she made me those dresses out of material that we would buy at Kress' and McC...... and they were white, sometimes with little flowers on them, or they were different colors, but they were always floral and they always had lace.
..: Yeah.
..: I remember my mother starch 'em like that and I felt beautiful! I did! (laughter)
..: You felt real special with starched clothes! (laughter)
..: ....... I grew up wishing I looked like you! (laughter)
..: Oh.
..: For instance, my mother .......
..: What happened!
..: ..........
..: See and I'm in between you two, you know. I get out in the sun and I get like her, which is great, except that now I know it causes melanoma, so I don't do it! (laughter) Cynthia Orozco (Tape 3)
3
Without sun-screen! (laughter)
..: But I've always thought in my next lifetime ....... I've going to have olive complexion, and black hair and big green eyes. (laughter) ....... tall, slender and rich! (laughter)
..: I just want to be slender ... I just want smaller hips! (laughter)
..: Yeah, right! ....... There's so much, there is so much, but I think the tools that our fathers have used is important.
..: Yes and their ingenuity in using them, I think that's another thing that needs ....
..: The lunch buck ... the lunch box.
..: Pail!
..: Or the lunch pail. Or whatever they could get their hands on to put their lunch in.
(background anouncement)
..: Thank you. ......
..: You're welcome.
..: It was fun.
..: I'm Rex Ball .......
(BALANCE OF SIDE 2 BLANK)