~B~ (V1~~ Lf
THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Meetings
INTERVIEW WITH: Pete Perez-Montalvo , Joe Carrillo,
1\( .1 ( , ,
Mrs .. . .... Bernal , Lucy Garc~a,
Father . ... Rameriz
DATE: 16 October 1994
PLACE: Lubbock, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Phyllis McKenzie
M: .... . Phyllis McKenzie of the Institute of Texan
Cultures, today is October 16, 1994 , we ' re at St . Joseph's
Church in Lubbock, Texas , for a Community Meeting about the
Tej ano exhibit. You ' ll now here the voice of the people who
will be interviewed on this tape .
P: I 'm Pete Perez - Montalvo from Lubbock . I 'm involved in
t he Texas State Museum with the Spanish Hispanic . . .
Mexican ... Spanish-Mexican Compound ... in a permanent
Hispanic Gallery.
C: I 'm Joe Carrillo. I'm from St . Joseph ' s Parish here in
Lubbock.
My name is . .... .. . . . . Bernal ..... St . Joseph's Parish
also .... .. .... .. Altar Society ... . .. . .
G: I'm Lucy C Garcia. And I belong to St . Jospeh's Church
since 1926 .
5 1. 1.....--(':"
R: And I 'm Father Rameriz, pastor of -5-t-.--- Joseph 's.
M: Mr. Carrillo , a minute ago before we started the tape,
you were talking to us about the different terms and names
that have been used f or your cul ture . .. for your group
would you repeat something of what you were saying just a
minute ago .
C: What I was saying that I think there's a
confusion ..... I guess in Texa you know we've been
considered different type of names ... you know. Fi rs t we
were ... what? ... Mexicans ... and then Latins ... then
Latin-Americans ... then Chicanos ... and now we ' re ... what
else was it? ... Hispani cs ... and now we're Tejanos . You
know we get all this type of names. And like I said ... i f
(":'1 Z-Q
... I think this is a confused type of .. . I guess
or since we 're talking about
culture . Now you have in other countries ... like here we
are cons idered to be foreigners if we know 2 languages ...
or 3 . Any other part of the world they're considered to be
somebody that really ... the e ducational ... part
of you know ... of the cu l ture . But here they regard us
-~,. ~)
as you know ... fo reigners .,. becaus e you know languages
... you know .. . you don ' t speak 2 languages here in this
country ... you speak American . Well, what is American you
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 3
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
-i I , - I. I" r - L" I
know? Somebody mentioned .. . bet 's all q 0-Bae-k~t-e-wha.t-i-s
Amer,lcan.7 You k now . . . In dl' an .. . you know . .. J, ust b ecause
it ' s Engl i sh . .. it could have been German.
M: What word would each of you use to describe your ethnic
or cultural heritage? Mr . Carrillo mentioned several
which one would one would you each use i f I asked you what ' s
the right one for you personally?
P: Mexican-American .
M: Mexican- American.
C: I would prefer Mexican- American ... you know ... from
Mexi can parents . Mine was from Mexico and moved to New
Mexico ... so I ' d really be Mexican .
M: Mrs . Bernal?
B: The same . . . . . .
M: Mexican- American .
G: Mexican-Ameri can .
M: Alright.
R: I think that with all the changes that have come around
like among the Colored people .. . before they used to
hate to be ca l led Blacks .. . and now they say Black is
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - 4
Lubbock, Texas I Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
Beautiful and they ' re proud of being Black . And I think we
have also identified ourselves with that and we don ' t mind
being called Mexicans . .. we're ki nd of proud to be called
that. Or to say that we are . But I think the younger
generation prefers to be called Mexican-Americans .
P : It bothers me when I hear the menu for the school
children on television in the mornings and they s ay . ..
We ' re going to have enchilladas, beans and Spanish rice
it is not Spanish rice ... it is Mexican rice
Spanish rice .
paella is
M: Uh- huh. We were talking a little bit . .. a minute ago
I was saying that things are different in the Pan Handle .. ,
than in South Texas .. . or in San Antonio where we all are
from ... what differences do you all notice .. . do you feel
is diffetht here from Tejano culture in other parts of the
s t ate? Or do you f ee l t hat there are d ifferences?
P: When I travel to other parts of the state the Hispanics
the Mexican- Americans .. . .... . are more mono-lingual .. .
more apt to watch English televis ion or listen to English
radio than the Mexican- Americans in this region. Here there
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Jos eph's Church - 5
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
i s a closer affinity to the old culture than there i s even
i n San Antonio ... Aust in ... Houston .
M: Why is that ?
P : I think it might be a react i on to some of the
i njustices and cultural isolation that was experienced by
the Hi spanic community when it first settled in this area .
Where in those other parts of the state the Mexican-American
has become accultura!i zed and become a part of t he greater-
American scene . You know a lot ear lier time than what
this happened in Lubbock.
M: UR huh . Would anyone else l ike to comment on t hat?
A/ fe",/." r),~-"
C: I think like you were saying . .. I think .... . ... ~ -yetI
had to learn Spanish ... instead of you know vice a versa
a f -I J , , ',. "/ I:"" In:;
.. . ... . ..... you know ... but most .. know
Spanish ... whether they were Germans . .. Jews ... or
whateve r ... Blacks you know
Her·
here ... they look at you as
well , they know the Spanish .
the difference between the
...:: rl)! ,I
they look at you a s a foreigner i f you know 2
language s and I think Lubbock ' s one of the biggest . . .
to me ... and I 've been here all my life .. . one of the
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph's Church -
Lubbock , Texas I Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
biggest bigotry and racist town in the state . And you know
. . . . . I think it should be
M: That ' s how you feel?
C: That ' s how I feel . And yes ... that ' s how
it is.
M: Well ... that's ...
C: They just hide it.
M: Well we're here to look .. .
C: it wasn ' t in the open way back here at . . .
I ' ve been here all my life and it wasn ' t in the open then
but now they ' ve closed it down .. . it ' s s t il l there .
M: Uh-huh.
~J+-
C: Still there. It's just having trouble with jobs
good jobs ... most of the kids are educated and leave town
....," / L I:: I.
because of the well ... you can ' t get a half a decent
;1
job ... you do they .· .. any litt l e old thing that you do
wrong they ' re going to fire you ... and this is part of
cul ture here Very well qualified people
ar~
6
here ... ... .. culture . . . but because of this . .. they just
retire .
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph's Church - 7
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
M: Mr. Perez-Montalvo was mentioning there 's more
isolation here and a different history it wasn't settled
as early in time as South Texas ... I'd be interested in ...
in the personal background for each of you . .. when did your
family f irst come to this area? how many generations ago?
have you each lived here all your life? or not? So Mrs.
Garcia , would you tell me first?
G: I came in Lubbock since 1920 .
M: 1920 .
G: With my mother and my dad. I ...
M: Where did they come from?
G: They came from ... we came from Roswell , New Mexico.
M: And why did your family come?
G: Why?
M: Uh- huh .
G: I don ' t know ... I was . .. I was a small child then ...
I don ' t know why they moved to Texas.
M: Was it for work?
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 8
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
G: Yeah ... they came out here to pull bolls .. . or cotton
whatever . And it was 3 families . It was my grandmother
my mother 's mother .. . and my uncle . .. .... . . ..... .
M: Uh- huh.
G: They came in 1919 . And then we came in 1920. They
were here before we did so they tried to bring us over .
M: Uh- huh .
G: So that ' s the reason we came over .
M: So family connection was here .
G: Yeah. Three families was here ... t he Carmonas . . .
. . ..... and Castillanos .
M: Mrs . Bernal?
B: We came in the early ' 50s over here because my mom was
sick with asthma and we took her . .. the doctors told her
that we needed a better climate for he r . .. this was ...
M: Where did you come from?
B: Houston , Texas . And I never knew any discrimination
until I came here.
M: Is that right? What was different here than in
Houston?
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph's Church -
Lubbock, Texas I Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
B: Yes . Over here ...
M: What speci f ically did you encounter here?
B: Well ... we went into a restuarant after school to
drink Cokes and they wouldn't serve us . And I had never
experienced that before ... it was a shock to me.
M: Father Rameriz?
R: We came here ... we began coming to this area in 1937
and that's when ... my dad had died and my mother and
brothers and sisters used to migrate from the Central part
of Texas and we came to this area and then we used to come
to the park there ......... Park that ' s there now
9
and t here used to be a barn t here ... where all the migrants
used to gather. And then the Anglo would come to hire the
people and take them to their own farms to pick cotton . So
we landed in Abernat hy . And we began to come there with the
Harrisons up until the '50s when I left for the Seminary .
And we came there every year to pick cotton. When the
harvest was done we went back home and we missed from
September to December going to school . Because o f the
migration and having to work. So every year that we went
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - 10
Lubbock, Texas I Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
back to school we started in January which used to put us
back every year . And then in 1950 in this area this was the
only church .. . besides St. 8lizabeth .. , but t his was TH8
Mexican church and there was no other churches around in the
area ... so we used to come to mass here to St. Jose every
Sunday and then the Palentine Fathers came here in 1950 and
then I joined them i n ' 54 and went to study in Ireland f or
13 years and then I was sent home to be ordained here in
this church . I have served in Texas since 1967 and I am
back in San Jose as pastor for 10 years . Now , in the
meantime we also underwent a lot of discrimination .
we were migrants.
M: Uh - huh.
Since
R: And I remember distinctly one restuarant that was down
on Broadway .. . and there was a sign on it that said . .. No
Mexicans or Dogs Allowed.
M: Is that right?
(mixed conversation)
R: That reall y hurt
G: Yeah.
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Jo seph 's Church - 11
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
R: really hurt .
M: Can understand that .
R: It wasn ' t unti l lately that that restuarant was closed .
Just lately.
M: The sign had come down hadn ' t it?
R: It fina lly closed but the man moved to 4th Street
he ' s there across from Gilbert's ... around there.
And so this is some of the experience that we went
through. We were only a llowed to walk as far as Texas
Avenue and from there back that way is where all the
Mexicans used to buy their food
but we couldn ' t go beyond Texas .
M: What happened if you ... ?
buy their clothes
R: Because that was for the Anglos and from there ... from
Texas down that was ... east ... was for the Mexican people .
M: If you did venture beyond Texas Avenue what happened?
R: Well , it was ... they didn ' t throw you out ... but t hey
let you know you were n ' t welcome there . And this was the
kind of feeling that was there . Now ... we are proud and
being a priest now . .. a few years ago I had an Anglo priest
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph's Church - 12
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
here with me ... and we've always had 3 masses on Sunday
one in English and 2 in Spanish and Saturday night in
Spanish ... so he ... we wanted to see if the people wanted
to have 2 English masses and 2 Spanish . And so we took a
survey for 2 weekends and we were really surprised that the
Mexican people said no ... we want our Spanish masses as
they are and we only want one Anglo mass and that 's it. And
the only reason why we come to the Anglo mass it ' s for
convenience ' s sake and no other reason. And it was because
it wasn't too late or too early. So that ' s going back to
what you said I think . That we 're proud of our culture ...
even though we live in an enviornment of ... where English
is spoken and even our youth speak more English now than
Spanish yet the culture and our costumbres and whatever . ..
we still have them and I think we' re still very proud of
them .
M: I wanted to talk a lot more to all of you about the
conditions you remember from the ' past . I want to make sure
our other 2 gentlemen have a chance to tell us how their
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church -
Lubbock, Texas I Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
family came to be in this area. So let's talk about that
and then we ' ll move to other ... Mr . Perez-Montalvo?
P : My family came f r om Monterrey, Mexico, in Febr uary of
19 s "l
~~~~ We lived in Eagle Pass for a few months where I
attended school in the 4th grade. Just before the end of
13
the school we became migrant workers . And we went to work
in the fields in Colorado and we stayed there for most of
the summer . Sometime in early August of ' 54 we came back to
Lubbock. We found out we were not cut out to be farmers .
My father was a construction foreman in Mexico and Lubbock
was experiencing a building boom at that time. So we stayed
G ,r
in Lubbock where we did ~well in construction and in
educating us . I , like Father Rameriz , I a lso experienced
some discriminat i on early on . We lived about 2 blocks from
here and a church ... man came up and asked i f I would take
' 11 ". "
part in the Christmas parade ... downtown Lubbock ... and I
said ... my mother said yes .. . she consented. And they had
myself, a Black chil d and a Vietnamese lady from the
Un i versity ... I remember her because of her costume
which I later became quite familiar with when I was in
Tejano Communit y Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 14
Lubbock , Texas / Phyl lis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
Vietnam . We sat on the flatbed truck looking at a world and
the bible open in front of it and on a very cold day we
paraded through downtown Lubbock. At the end ... this was
an Anglo church I believe it ' s the First Christian
Church .. . it's on about 2 blocks east of University
Avenue on Broadway it ' s the very first church ... big
church that was there. They took us to a restuarant on
Broad ... on Main and Avenue X to treat us and they took us
through the front door . .. it was an Anglo minister and 3
minority children ... and they wouldn ' t serve us . And so
they took us around the back of the restuarant and we sat
outside ... on a very cold December day ... on produce
crates and there they brought us our food. And that's where
we ate .
M: How did an incident like that ma ke you feel?
P: If ... it's galvanized . .. it ' s in my mind ... no
matter what else is said or done no matter who my
friends are ... I don't mistrust Anglos . .. but I know that
this is a part of our past and I deal wi th i t . It doesn't
bother me . I 'm very proud that I experienced it because now
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 15
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
I can deal on a different level with ..... people. I
benefited from i t personally.
M: Really? You have not felt embittered from i t?
P: Both of my ex- wives are Anglos and my chi ldren are half
and half and I deal very well in both cultures. And also
with the Black community so it expanded my knowledge of the
world .
M: That says a lot for you r own character too I t hink.
Mr . Carrillo, will you tell us how your family came to be
here.
C: Well , I guess just like the rest of them I just
migrated here because of the work. I did work in the
fields , cotton fie l ds ... I think dad was mostly ... well ,
..... generally took people to the fi elds ... kind of
foreman type of ... truckero they used to call them ... they
Y ellJ L, (\ II I
they ... ..... mesquites ... they used to hire people to
dig them out
the time you've heard it?
I think they used to call
(>1 ( r., ,i /I /
. . . . . . . . . . . used to do
of his work here that ' s when they t ook all those
it at
a lot
mesquites out of the fields . . ..... cotton fields out of
/
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph's Church -
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
them ... I,
W(\. ': /"_
"- -1, . ! _ '
in fact , I remember Reese -up--l:le!-Ee
16
before
they .... ,. airport base ... they did that job in that area
and I just like the rest of them ... they came in and
say ... you know ... talk to the railroaders here ... some
of them came from the ranches you know .. . cattle
cowboys and what have you ... and then they came i n to the
railroad .......... cotton fie lds .......... mostly
migrat i on . .. for work.
M: Uh-huh. It sounds to me like most of you have had some
background on the migrant trail and I ' d be very interested
in some details of that life ... what did you eat . .. how
many hours a day did you work ... how did you feel about the
people that you were working for . .. were they treating you
fa i rly ... or unfairly ... what did you do in the evenings
... what did yo do for entertainment did you have enough
money to buy necessities ... any and all of these topics
if you could fill in some details ... you 're the first
groups of people we've talked to in the whole state who've
really had an agricultura l background and in order to
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph' s Church - 17
Lubbock , Texas I Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
r epresent t his i n the exhibit we sure could use help from
just what details do you a l l remember as being signi f icant.
P: ..... .. r ole in 1954 we worked 1a ! I. ~P.~ ': ... .
that ' s cleaning out the cotton and get ting the weeds out.
M: Uh-huh .
P: And we worked for 40 cents an hour . I was a big 10
year old . At that time it was 40 cent s an hour .. . 10 hour s
a day ... hal f an hour off for lunch . There was water a t
t he end of the row by the truck ... there were no
t oilets of course ... we brought our lunches from home . I n
the morning ... early on a truckero would come by and pick
us up . .. and sometimes it would stil l be dark ... we ' d go
and drive t hey b rought us out to t he fie lds somewhere
quite a ways from the city somet imes . At the end of the
day there was not a whole lot o f energy left f or anything
even though you were a youngster you were beat by t he sun
. .. you were beat by the sun . And on week- ends we were off
Saturday and Sunday and we would go to the movies downtown
'" those that allowed Hispanics to go in . And again they
were all on the ... to east o f Texas Avenue . And l i ke
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 18
Lubbock , Texas / Phyl lis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
Father Rameriz said, the streets were wall t o wall with farm
workers who came in on Saturday to buy their supplies and
clothing and anything e lse that they needed. And ultimately
i t was that power of the money that opened up the rest of
the businesses as far as allowing Hispanics to come in .
M: Who else?
R: Basically that's exactly what we did . Only we weren ' t
with a truckero , we were privately working for one
particular person . But we used to come to Lubbock every ...
every week-end . And buy the groceries for the whole week.
And maybe take in a movie if we could stand in l ine for
hours before we could get in. And then we used to come to
confession and go home and then Sunday come back and go to
mass and then go back home. And as Pete says after a long
day's work there wasn't much that we could do except rest
and prepare f or the following day.
M: What were the living conditions like? What type of
dwellings?
(laughter and mixed conversation)
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 19
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
R: The living conditions . .. it depended ... I guess we
were very lucky . .. because we were hired by this particular
family and t here was no o t her family t here but jus t us . So
we had a pretty good house and the conditions were good . Of
course the t oi l et was outside and but otherwise it was okay .
But other peopl e who worked fo r truckeroes really had it
bad . I mean . . . their conditions .. .
M: Bad in what way? What did they have?
R: were really bad . Because
M: Tell me what they were like.
R: Maybe Pete might be able to enlarge on that .
P : Well, the houses that we l ived in . .. the very first
house that we lived in was out here 1 04 North Avenue M and
it had holes in the walls ... hole s in the floor if it
rained it l eaked ... broken windows .
where we could af f ord at the time . . .
It was the only place
M: You were rent ing it?
P: Of course, yes . We moved away f r om t here ...
Joe, tell ... . ... .
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph ' s Church - 20
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
P : ... and we rented another house in another part of town
not very far from there.
He said
P : Again the toilet was outside. There was water in the
kitchen . . . very ... very rudimentary kitchen ...
nothing like what we know now you know ... the sink was not
. . . there was no sink. I t was a very primitive living .
Winter- time ... around here it ' s a lot colder than it is in
South Texas. My dad would make sure that in bed he
would come over and cover us up at night ... make sure that
we didn 't freeze during the night ., . because it was
possible I suppose under the conditions that we were living
we coul d freeze .
M: Did entire families work the fields? Did children and
women?
P: By that time my dad was working in construction . I had
a sister who was 15 and my parents sent me along with her to
work in the fields ... kind of keep an eye on her I
tJ '_'
guess I was her chaperone . , . i t was quite common for Wefl
to have a ... for a younger brother or an older brother to
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 21
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
be assigned ... so that's what my duties were and
of course I worked alongside too .... but yes , there
were whole families that would come out there and work.
C: I think it was some of the clan-type of deal though
grandpa ... grandma . ,. you know ... and the uncl es and
aunts and the whole ... you know ... they it was just
a clan-type of a ... families that keep together took a
farm over ... they would probably be together anyway
most of the ... back then .. . I was talking to a
gentleman ... and he said . .. I liked it then. ... you know
... because of the closeness of the family . I said
,t= 10 ,_ d
you know ... poppa ' s not there both of them
are working ... and grandpa ' s not there anymore ... you know
,t - b
family ' s elsewhere ... just ........ divided ... then it
used to be a little clan- like deal ... grandpa was there ...
the respect was there ... everybody was watching everybody
and I think that was part of .. ..... .
M: You feel families were closer knit ...
C: Were c l oser knit.
M: in the generation ago than now?
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 22
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
C: Than they are now ... sure.
M: Do the rest of you feel that as well?
G: Yeah . That 's ..... .
M: What has caused the change?
G: I don't know .
own place you know
Everybody takes their own home ... their
and that ' s why they split out . Like
me .. . I 'm just home . .. me and my husband . Our kids own
their own homes and out of the family.
M: Some people have told us they think the family unit is
stronger in Hispanic culture than in society as a whole
than among Anglo people ... how do you feel about that?
G: Well, our family was pretty close ' way back ... not
anymore . , . we've ...
M: Not so much anymore?
S: How far away do your children live?
G: They live here now ! ( l augher)
M: Sally, would you identify yourself, please?
S : I 'm Sally Wiskeman and I 've just had a similar
conversation elsewhere and the gentleman said ... My
children have moved away. Well, where are they? Well, in
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 23
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
San Antonio , they ' re outside of 1604 ... which means you ' re
about 10 miles away . My children . . . I have one in Florida
and one in Houston . . .
G: I ' ve got my mother in California . . . 5 brothers and
sisters in Californi a . So our family is just spread out.
S : But your children
G: My sons and daughters are here .
S : That's wonderful .
G: But they sometimes don ' t even have a chance to call me
and say . . . Good morning , mother , how are you?
S : (laughter)
R: I think a lot has to do with our religion ... our
Catholic upbringing. That keep us together even though we
may be far away yet we keep within the family unity on the
faith that we have ... brings us together once a year
whereby we can visit with each other and share with each
other the experience of the past year . And if we keep that
tradition within the Mexican people. And I know that we as
a family ... there was 11 of us .. . so we still ... even
though we are scattered allover . .. we still try to meet
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph ' s Church - 24
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
once a year to see each other and to see the children ' s
children growi ng up .
+!
So I think that our faith has a lot to
do with ........ . the unity that keeps us the re .
M: That ' s one of the ties that
1<.1<..:,. f , /
R: And the traditions ... how tight - knit -.. ... ... .
even though we live in a different enviornment with
.... /0
.: .. h -
..... . . in a world t hat's so diffe rent from our ... from
where we came from that even though we ' re still part of
it and yet we're still a part of our own culture.
M: Thinki ng in terms of the exhibit . . . how could we
repre sent for instance ... the importance of re ligion?
... for that ' s part of what ' s tied your culture t ogether and
represented continu it y~ What could we put in the exhibit to
show that? What would be appropriate?
P: Well, the family cohesiveness is related to the
rel i gion. The in this particular region ... the
again the cultural isolation .... forced on the Mexican-
Ameri cans by the exterior community ... forced it to turn to
itself.
M: Uh httlr.
Tejano Community Me etin~s - St. Joseph ' s Church - 25
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
P : Our fami lies to turn into ourselves ... and whatever
was ... whatever method is chosen . .. whether it's a diorama
or an exhibit ... those 3 components represent people o f
this region ' s culture.
M: Which 3 components?
P: The church ... the family ... and the i solation forced
upon us. Where we came here to work and develop the land
and the industries and so forth but we were not allowed
to become an integrated part of the whole culture ... so
that brought us together and that is what has given us
cohesiveness and the strength. And whatever the exhibit has
has to incorporate those 3 factors . . . to be rep resentive of
West Texas Mexicano .
M: That's interesting that you say that .. . people in
other regions have mentioned at least 2 of those things too.
They've said family and religion. That perhaps a l l across
the state that is something impo rtant . Our question is how
can we best represent it in the exhibit? Perhaps one
-r")
suggestion that we hear is make sure have a Virgen de
Guadalupe . Some peopl e say a home altar ... if there ' s
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph's Church -
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
either an altar in their home today or they remember there
was one in their parent's home. Has that been your
experience? How many have an altar in t heir home t oday?
One , 2 , 3 ... did your
c : I don't ........ .
M: What was on them?
(laughter and conversation)
<.je.1 I'
did your parents have a l tars?
P: . .. la Virgen
L o
C: Guadalupe
G: ~ Have 1a Virgen de Guadalupe ... and Jesus
26
you know ... that statue ... out of cerami c or whatever it ' s
- / 1, '<':'
made out. And I ' ve had that stutue since ... oh .. . about
30 ... 35 years. And you know how much I paid for t hat
statue?
M: Tell me .
G: Fi fty cents a week .
M: Fifty cents a week.
G:
n r r/
.- ,
and it ' s a man
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1 , ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2 .
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - 27
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
M: This is side 2 of the Lubbock Community Meeting for the
Tejano exhibit , today is October 16 , 1992 ... 1994 . This is
Phyllis McKenzie fac ili tating.
Right before break we were talking a l ittle bit about
home interiors ... and home altars and wh a t sort of t h i ngs
were on home altars and some people were talking to me about
that there were a lot of pictures i n their home ... of
family members ... could we talk a little bit about that?
Where ... one idea we have is to try to re-create the
interior of a living room and if we did that .. . we've got 2
problems ... one is of what date? ... of today? .. . of 20
years ago? ... 40 years ago? Whatever date we pick to
r epresent ... the next question is then .. . what goes in i t ?
what is appropriate? So I 'm kind of asking you for
your ... your memories and what you think would best
represent the culture? First of all .. . should it have a
home altar? Is that appropriate?
P: Is representative of something prior to 1950 I would
t hink ... yes.
M: 8h-Jmh .
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 28
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
P : Maybe even after 1950 . A lot of times we still have .
M: Thoughts from other people?
l .... Jh .·J I~_ · h p Jr\ f., 'f<J t
C: .... .... typical .. ... . . . Mexican home what you
f I ..:. C" I '. ' r r~.'
see is each _o_ther-' s pictures ... you know ... the grandkids
and all this .. . when you go in the house that 's what you
see .. . it ' s a pride in family .. . you k~ow ... even though
they're a 100 miles away . .. 2 , 000 miles away .. . you walk
into a typical ..... .. . home I guess you could
the pride of the Mexican home would be .. . .... . you ' d see
pictures allover the place . I 'm talking about a
I' I' ,[ J ,e
Christ
would be one ... Virgen de Guadalupe ... t he
pride of the education part of the ... graduat i on p ictures
we j I ' "-t,,. I [ - I
you know and you ' d have ... well , the .. .... . ... .. . it
'-f c f [ J 1<
goes back to .. , -kind of- a story if you will ... you know
that you go th rough those pictures . . . what i s this?
and the r e ' s a stor y beh i nd every p i c t ure on the wall.
M: What about a picture of a person in the military
service? a son or a husband? Is that .. . would that be
something t hey woul d put on the wall and be proud of?
P : Uh-huh. Very much.
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph's Church - 29
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
M: You all feel that.
R: Yeah , I think . . .. . . ....... is very true. In my
experience as a priest whatever home I go into there's
always the history of the family there before you . . . in
photos . The whole family as it grew and as it was at one
time and then how it began to branch off and the whole story
is there in photos. How one particular daughter or son got
married and the day they got married and so and then
their children and so forth and so on . And so if the family
is a family of 10 the whole sitting room is full of
photographs .
M: Lots of pictures.
R: All the children and all their children's children and
grandma and grandfather ... it's something beautiful . And
that is part of t he heritage that we belong to . . . the
culture and the beauty o f being part of that Mexican family.
And of course Our Lady of Guadalupe right in the middle of
it.
P : Something that I noticed a lot of after the ...
President Kennedy was assassinated . . . is that in many homes
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 30
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
that had the altar along side somewhere there in a
prominent position near the crucifix and the picture of
the Virgen de Guadalupe ... you also find Kennedy . .. a
picture of John Kennedy . He was very admired very much
admired by the Mexican- Americans you know . .. the camposinos
the lower income people . . . they admired him a l ot .
M: Do you s til l find pictures of him in homes t oday? Or
was that more true 10 ... 20 years ago?
R: Yeah still some I have seen him in several
homes John Kennedy And I think the very fact
that he was a Catholic had a lot to do wi t h it ... the first
president ever in the America being Catholic and of a large
famil y . I think we associated ourselves with him a lot and
admired him for what he was . And when his life was taken it
r>-.
really hurt the Mexicanos a lot because we became so
r, ,r ,..., It!
attached to him and depended on him fo r ... . . .... .
,t
we could trust and then when he was gone 'i':-hen .. . just
/) (("\1
Mo"ken hearts.
• ' I
that
M: What other heroes or people that you've admired? In
either past or present. Do you think would be typical?
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - 31
Lubboc k , Texas I Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
R: I think that the other person that took his place was
Cesar Chavez?
Cesar ...... .
M: Do you see pictures of him in homes?
R: He was the one that kind o f fol l owed in his foots t eps
and we ki nd of went with him after t hat.
P: I ' ve been advocating among the people i n the community
C) ~ p_
I would like to see Avenue Q re-named Cesar Chaevz Blvd .
M: Is the r e support for t hat idea?
P: Among the Anglos there is d i smay . (laughter) Among the
Hispanics ... the Mexican-Americans . . . t hey say
What a great idea ! It's not an original idea of course.
But other cities ... Austin already has a Cesar Chavez
Avenue so this is where I got the idea. But around here
it 's either yes or my, gosh , why?
, ' }-:y/
C: Mexican name on the ...... .
M: When you were each children ... who were your role
mode ls ? Where they famous people like for instance
President Kennedy ... were they your own fami ly member s?
Tejano Community Meet ings - St . J oseph ' s Church - 32
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
your father? ... your mother? ... or an older brother? Who
did you look t o for guidance?
P: There 's a sport figure I looked up to
p .. r n
Avilar ... he was a major league baseball player ... I don ' t
think he was Mexican . I think he was Venzuelan . But the
name ... you know . .. I used to like baseball a lot ... and
so any name that was Hispanic . .. you know .. . I a lways
assumed that they were Mexi cans .
M: You fe l t a l i nk t o . Uh - huh . Mr . Carrillo?
C: I didn ' t have a role model all the time. I can' t
remember ... . .
M: No model s?
C: I jus t had to know enough about them t o even consider
them .
B: I t h i n k mine was my aunt ... she was very Cathol i c and
n.. ."\ -, -, 1 I r ! . I
she had . . , . ...... .
M: Uh-huh . What were the qualities you admired about your
he r?
B: We l l , she was very loving and she always ... you know
she always was worrying about us being ... to mass ...
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church -
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
and she cared a lot about our faith you know ... for us to
grow up in our church and stuff like that. And she would
a lways make sure that we would be there . More than my
parents.
M: More than your parents?
B: Yes. I remember that .......... .
M: Father Rameriz?
33
R: I gues s I would owe my vocation to my mom and dad. The
deep religi on that they instilled in all of us . And the
respect that they used to have towards the priest. And they
kind of I guess in a way ... when you look at i t
nowadays ... they had him up on a pedestal . .. and i t was
just that they admired the man ... they respected the person
.. . for what he represented ... and you just were never
allowed to say anything but nice things about him. And look
towards him as something different from us ... somebody
And I think that instilled in me the vocation that I have
now.
M: I was just going to ask ... when did you start thinking
that you would like to be a priest?
Tejano Community Mee t ings - St. Joseph's Church - 34
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
R: Be one of them . .. yeah.
M: When you were a child you already thought of that
vocation?
R: Yeah ... I think I grew up in that enviornment and that
kind of pushed me on to being what I am today .
M: When Mrs. Bernal was talking about her aunt I thought
that one thing I ' d like to ask and perhaps you should be the
one to tel l us first is what ro l e do women play in
preserving your culture and heritage?
B: I think they were very important because I think the
most ly the mothe r was the bac kbone I guess you could
say .. . of the family in trying to you know . .. make
sure that they were going in the right way. Usually the
fa ther was busy working and sometimes ... you know .. .
-I I ' . --: -
maybe .... . compadres .... ... .
M: Could you men each t el l me too wha t you remember o f
your mother or whoever were the significant women in your
family when you were young? What was she like ? What was
her r ole in shari ng the work o f the family and passing on
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph's Church - 35
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
values and raising the children? Like .. . I'd like for each
of you to a ddress this.
C: I personally ... mother has a l ways said work ... you
know ... she said work was ... you know ... was one of t he
main things that a person ... especially a man should do . . .
but yet I agree with ... because the woman was i nstrumental
way back there and even more t han now ... ' cause she was
home all day long .. . she was doing the home chores she
was a lady-of-the- house ... she was the backbone of the
family at the time ... whatever she said .. . until he comes
in ... well , that was it. And if you didn't l ike what s he
said you were . ..... .. .... and you was going to get it . . .
one way or the other ... you ' d get it .
M: Mr . Pe r ez- Montalvo?
P: It was the same way at our house . Mom kept everything
going . She cooked . . . she shopped she put us ... she
insisted on us going to school .. . she made sure we had the
school . She told us stories about the ... the role models
you asked about awhile ago I mean ... our family they
were men and . . . generally men . . . like my grandfather . ..
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph's Church - 36
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
great-uncles. We repeat names in our family. We get ... I
was named after my dad ' s Uncl e Pedrocero and so on and so
f orth .. . my son is the same way .. . and so they would tell
us stories . . . .............. .. . heroic things that he did
... kind things that he did ... kind things that my
grandfather did . .. this was done by my mom .
M: She was passing on family history .
P: Right . Yeah . And along with that .. . creating r ole
models for us. We . . . like yourself ... I didn't have any
great role models in the community other than just Bobby
. ...... Avila .,. the baseba ll player . . . So I guess maybe
my mom was substituting those role models by giving us
family history that we could emulate .
M: Uh- huh.
P: Mom kept it pretty much running she's the . .. she's
r>'"' o. I ','"
the one that did it all . Dad provided . . . but she ·ma~ all
the day-to-day decisions.
M: Father Rameriz?
R: We used to ... we used to look up to dad as the
provider ... the one that went out ' " had to
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 37
Lubbock, Texas I Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
sometimes when you think about it it seems to me like he was
the bird that left the nest and went for the worm and
brought it home to mom and all the children . So mom was
really the real important person in that home. She carried
the load and everybody obeyed her. And she was the one that
had everything ready for you when the time came whether
it was a meal ... ironed clothes or washed clothes or
whatever ... she was there. And she was the one that used
to stay up at night until all her chi l dren came home . And
even though sometimes we used to take off our shoes and
tiptoe into our room mom would hear us come in .. . and
she would say ... Is that you , Jul ian? ... or . .. Is that
you so- and-so? And the son would answer ... Yes , mother .
And she would say ... Go to bed . That was all. So she
would be the . . . I think she would be the role model that we
had in those days . We didn ' t have leaders but we had a
great mother. And I was one person that ... that I r eally
loved that woman. And I had a f unny way of showing it .. .
because if she was cooking I used to go and grab her by the
back and just squeeze her to death until she got tired and
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph ' s Church - 38
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
got loose and whatever she had in her hand she threw at me .
I used to go and pull her hair or take off her apron ...
but that was my way of saying I love you ... I appreciate
you ... and I just admire you for who you are and who you
represent . We all have diffe r ent ways of showing our love
and respect and this is how I showed mine.
M: I suspect she appreciated those big bear hugs.
P: She did .
M: I ' m a mother of 4 so I would like that.
P: And you know when she died t hen sure we missed her ...
I did. But then I was glad that I was able to express all
that love when she was alive . When she could feel how I
felt about her when she could see me ... and I used to
express that love and gratitude when we used to meet
e ye - to- eye . And I think that's the way it should be done .
And that ' s the way I did it . And I'm very happy I did . And
not wait until she was gone and then ... oh . ..
M: You bet. One thing that ' s been mentioned briefly a
coupl e of times today it ' s been education .. . those of
you who were on the migrant trail mentioned that you st a rted
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph ' s Church - 39
Lubbock , Texas I Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
school late and people have told us in other meetings that
their family ... their parents .. . st r essed the importance
of getting an education so that you the children can
have a better life than the parents did was that the
experience that you all had? And what education where you
able to get?
R: Well, us being a family of 11 it was ... it was pretty
tough. And they ... mom and dad had to sacrifice a lot. Of
course I became a Missionary priest there was no
experience involved i n that ... but then my ot her brothers
would stay home and sisters for instance ... one way
or another they were educated ... they reached goals
they were qualified they are qualified in their own
capacity ... and it was a great sacrifice . But we got
there. And I think we owe it all to the dedication and
sacrifices that mom and dad had to make. And t he commitment
that they had to continue encouraging us to go ahead
that it could become possible. And so we owe it all to
them .
M: What was the experience of other people?
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - 40
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2 )
B: Myself ... my father became ill and he had to go to a
Veteran ' s Hospital . . . so that ' s where he was most of the
time I was growing up. And ... but my mother stayed here
and she worked and she sent us to schooY. And t he one thing
that she never, never wanted us was to be on welfare o r
anything like that . She just worked hard . And she ho ~ (. /e-I . r
p., cl "-
And I guess she .. . she just worked hard and
we worked hard t oo .. . you know after school ...... . .
But then I got married and I finished my education . .. high
school . ..... . .
C: At the time I was growing up ... and I never did
graduate from high school . .. like I think it was simply
because most of the kids ahead of me that was graduati ng was
at the fields about the same t i me that I was ... not as
young ... they wasn't even ....... ... . . . graduation when
.~
I'd go i n the fields . .. and ...... . . graduate to be in the
fields l i ke they were .. ..... . . . So this is
s ome of experience that we had with the education part of
it. Of course God you know ... perseveres . .. myself
I 'm not a . .. you know . . . a graduate .. . but
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church -
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
I 'm . .. family all graduated . ,. that ' s one thing about it
t hey all came out ... I had 6 of them ... they a ll
graduated ... because I didn ' t I was sure that they would .
M: Alright .
C: So this is part of the educat ion .
M: Sure be a source of pride.
C: and I think is what would happen and I
41
think this is kind of discouraging me and a lot of the
others about the same age ........... a couple of years and
just going into the fields like the rest of them ...
........ ... and I think ... I don 't know whether it was
done intentionall y or not but that ' s the way it was .
M: Uh-huh .
P: There were 4 before me in our family who did not
graduate ... I was t he first one to go through high school
and finish high school and go on to college . My parents
always emphasi zed the fact that it was necessary and I 'm
very glad that they did. I look now back and am very
grateful that my life has turned out as it has because I did
go to school. It ' s something that I encourage the young
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
people nowadays to do. And knowing the dropout rate that
the Mexican-American children have and the needs of high­tech
i ndustries ... it appalls me that we have such a high
rate of dropouts .
42
M: The schools that you all went to when you were children
tell me a litt l e bit what they were like ... were you
the minority or where they mostly Spanish speaking children?
Were you allowed to speak Spanish? How were you treated?
P: I attended ... the very first school that I attended in
the United States was Stephen F. Austin Elementary School in
Eagle Pass. I was a fourth grader in Mexico in a parochial
school so t hey put me in the fourth grade in American
school. I couldn't speak English but I was far ahead of my
contemporaries in math and in science ... spelling and
language and all of that I didn ' t know anything about. In
the playground I didn't know the rules because they had been
explained to me in English but I was talking in Spanish to
another kid and all of sudden something hit me on the head
and i t was a big University of Texas graduation ring that a
man teacher had ... he came back and hit me ... real hard
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph ' s Church - 43
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
... I cried ... I cried ... I was a very small fourth grader
I guess ... just a very timid fourth grader ... and t hat was
my first experience with discipline because I spoke Spanish
in the playground . In t he local school system ... I went to
Sanders Elementary which was ... early Mexicano's at that
time . .. there were a few Anglos no Blacks ... and it
was a very r ough school ... a lot of older kids who shoul d
have been maybe in junior h i gh or even in high school s t i ll
attended as 5th graders and 6th graders ... so there were a
lot of fights after school . There was a lot of intimidation
going on. Of course mom would come and meet us right
outside the school and we' d walk home with her . After t hat
we moved to another part of town where I was a minority in
terms of the rest of the kids being Anglo and that ' s when I
re a lly began excelling i n academic work and learning more
English . And after that I went to a juni or high that was
pri marily . .. I was ... for 2 years I was the only Mexicano
by the 9th grade there were othe rs but not very many of
us. I g raduated from Monterrey High School in 1963 .
Monterre y is again . .. at that time was all Anglo ... my
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 44
Lubbock , Texas I Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 o f 2)
graduating class there were 2 Mexicanos and maybe 714 . .. I
would say ..... .... .. .
, r I ' L..-"-A i1 ~ ", -, ......
M: Who else ... talk about their school days?
B: I think in my school ... I went to Hunts
Elementary ... and there was a mixture of Whites and
Mexican- Americans there were no Blacks there that I can
remember. But we got along well and I had a lot o f Anglo
friends . And I remember they were happy times .......... .
M: Did did the Mexican-Americans speak Spanish? Were
they allowed to?
B: No ... you were not a llowed to speak Spanish .... ... .
R: We didn't know any other language but Spanish. ' Cause
my mother and dad were from Mexico. So when we started
school ... I mean .. . we started from scratch ... and we
didn ' t know English so .. . and we weren ' t allowed to speak
Spanish. And I remember distinctly when .. . because we used
to live out on the farm and ride a bus and mother used to
make tacos for us and torillas ... not but
tortillas with beans and then wrap them up and roll them up
and when l unch t ime around we were so ashamed to bring out
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph ' s Church - 45
Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
the tortilla and eat it because everybody e l se ... the Anglo
ch ildren had sandwiches and all that ... and we had
there we were with our tort illa eating . .. and that was our
experience in the school. And of course not being able to
speak when we wanted to ... our own language and . . . I guess
we were forced to learn English and that 's how we came
to learn it
P: ..... . .... just remi nded me of a s imilar experience
my mom would prepare my lunches and I felt very awkward . ..
again li ke yourself ... eating a tortilla in the lunchroom
and the o t her kids were buying t he i r lunches or would bring
sandwiches ... so I had my mom . .. to avoid the
embarrassment ... make me sandwiches but it was with food
that would ordi narl y go in a taco . .. you know ... papas con
chorrizos or papas con whatever it was that she put
in it ... but i t would be in a sandwi ch fo r m.
M: Quite a compromise .
( laughter)
C: Talking about school a little bit ... you ' d think tha t
looking at it back now ... you know that you go off
and look ........ . I don't think we had as much ... to
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph's Church 46
Lubbock , Te xas I Phyl lis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
me ... it s eems like now that I look back ... qualified
teachers tea ching us the language. Even now ...... we check
them out ... you know .. . schools .. . the Black schools
and the public schools are not getting qualified
teachers ... the best teachers are in ot her parts of the
well-to-do districts . And I think this I remember back
t here t hat ... yeah , we had a quilt-man for a pri ncipa l
you know ... somebody that sells quilts on the streets
and his name was Mr. And you know ... this
t ype of deal . And I look back and see that we had a quilt-man
f or a p r incipal .. . is thi s right? you know . And I
think since then .. , wel l .. . grown up and t he kids
were going to school ... I attended a lot of PTAs. You know
... I think that ' s one of the main things ... that you need
to pay attention when the kids are going to school tha t
you must be there i n o r der to see that the thi ngs ......... .
and I think ... you know ... but it is I don ' t think
we're getting the r i ght teachers ... you know in our
school s . . ... .......... now ... like you say ... you learn
more i n Sout hwest Lubbock you would in any ot her part o f
Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - 47
Lubbock , Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
q c.:' t I -
t own. Because they do ............. qualified teachers .
Teachers are teachers and they work hard .. . .... .. problems
in our areas because of the ... culture ' s different . But if
they are smart enough . .. . as a teacher they can overcome
the barriers i f they want to . You know ... I think that ' s
I remember here awhile back in .... ... order to have a
teacher ....... .... she had to retire at what ? .. . 65 . . .
something like that she had to retired once from a
school ... . . . .. retired from this other one . Now this
l ady ' s too old to be teaching ... you know ... some of the
young . .. I . .. .... . . . . . so this is a
M: One exhibit idea I meant to ask you all about and we ' re
pract ically out of t ime and I see I'd forgotten was . . .
we 're thinking of putting a truck maybe just the
truckbed ... with the cab l ooking like it ' s fading into a
painting or maybe a whole truck with the cab that would play
Spanish radio from different periods but the t ruck
itself . . . a migrant laborer's truck taking them to the
fields. This idea has had some very ferocious reaction from
some people . They have said that would be a stero-type
Tejano Community Meetings - St . Joseph's Church -
Lubbock , Texas I Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2)
49
before us and why they came and so I . .. while I respect
peoples ' opinion about it . . . I persona lly fe e l it ' s very
much a part of our background and we need to recognize it .
M: I ' d like to change the tape before anyone else talks
I 'm nearly at the end again and I want to make sure I
get all or your comments .
END OF TAPE 1 , SIDE 2 , ABOUT .. MINUTES.