THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
SUBJECT: Tejano Community Advisory Meeting
DATE: 1 May 1993
PLACE: Institute of Texan Cultures
MODERATOR: Sally ........... (Session II)
TAPE 1, SIDE 2.
..: Yeah, we may combine with another table in a little bit, but what we really want to know is - in the - I'm thinking about the Gallery Theater. Thinking about the stuff that one could do ... what is it that you think we could do with ... what are some of the things we could do in the Gallery Theater ... this was the Day of the Dead ... there is another one coming up which is on my desk, which I have not read ... but what kind of themes would be good to do in that kind of setting? Gallery Theater .... people ... what they'll probably do is be in the plaza area if we have that or in a school area or in an open area to show people a simple slice of life. What would be a real ...
..: You know, they were saying something about quinceaneras, ...
..: Um-huh.
..: ... you know, which I planned one for my niece, and there was this very ... and then even though they ... Guadalupe already had like ........ who could do it it a different way because that's one thing I always remember, I always remember that my grandmother, my mother, the used to do tamales and give it out to the neighbors, ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... and then also on New Year's Eve she did bunuelos and give it out to .... and I think those important ... like fiestas, you know, ...... fiestas. Like since I'm in the Guadalupanas and we celebrate the Vergen de la Guadalupe, which is ... why do we celebrate the Vergen de la Guadalupe, and what other things we do for the Vergen de la Guadalupe, I think that would be ... in a spiritual way ... but ... me and my spiritual things ... it would be nice for the young generation to know, the young kids, what is the Vergen de la Guadalupe ... why do we celebrate it ... what is the mass ... the traditions, you know, I think that would be very ... you know, ..... what I think about ... I ..... came to my mind .... my mother used to sing and so whenever we clean house we all used to sing and get everything together .... (laughter) and I think that sort of things that are ... I live by myself now so ... my life has changed a lot!
..: But you can still sing!
..: Yeah. But I remember those things, you know, of celebrating Thanksgiving, celebrating Christmas with relatives, we always had ... not only our relatives but we had people always. My mother and my father ....... all kinds of people. That we celebrated together. Other people would come and celebrate a holidays with us. We always had singing and those things ... singing one of my uncles played guitar .....
..: Always had music.
..: We always had music.Sally ...... (Session II)
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..: There's got to be music in this exhibit, there's gotta be, right? (laughter)
..: .... had somebody sing. ... always somebody sing. .... my mother used to do them, you know, .... small little town, my aunt used to ... 'cause my grandfather was in a small town ... they did that. And it was always ... I think .... I think that we celebrate even with the sadness that there is in life.
..: And that's a good interactive kind of thing ........
..: There's is death and life together. Like there are sad moments, my brother-in-law died and we ... my niece got married in the morning and at 5 o'clock we had to go to, you know, that's just part of life ... is now. So we taught our nieces, it's just part of life.
..: Well, while we're talking about it, what we are talking about is - what are some of the other things that one might do in a theater ... small Gallery Theater like that?
..: Oh, like different plays?
..: Slices of life, yeah. What would some of the topics be?
..: You covered a good portion of it. I think when we ... you were talking about celebrations and things like that.
..: ...... small house ... a lot of people do that.
..: Yeah. We had a wedding in a house.
..: Uh-huh.
..: That sort of ...... because it's like .... oh, there they Sally ...... (Session II)
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are ... you're supposed to do the second session. So have you asked him?
..: I was actually waiting on him.
..: Well, we're going to pick on you, are you in trouble!
..: Ask ... about music, okay?
..: Oh, yes. (laughter)
(mixed conversation)
I'm Lee Ann, Hi, Lynn, Raymond, nice to meet you, Hi Raymond, I'm David LaRo, ... I'm Sally, good to see you.
..: What we were talking about are some of the interactive programs that ... up in .... might be able to do up in the Tejano area. And we were talking about Gallery Theater which is just like little theater and Cindi Gonzales was just in here and she had done a slice of one of the shows they have which is on the Day of the Dead and being in the cemetery. And what we are talking about is what are some of the themes we might be able to use and ... started talking about the celebrations, ... weddings at home, and then she happened to bring up the fact that, you know, there was always singing, there was always music, so ... Ray ... as a musician, when think about the exhibit floor, you know, how could we incorporate music into the Tejano area which would be really useful and maybe kind of ... ?
..: And that people could relate to.
..: ... people could maybe sing themselves or ... do we ... right now its only done with background ...Sally ...... (Session II)
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DL: Right. Uh-huh.
..: Which of course is one way to do it.
Ray: That or have a band up there. I mean ...
..: Hey ...
DL: Great, the idea has been raised .... something about a push-button selection of different types ...
Ray: That would be good because that way ...
DL: ... music be played ... you could hear a selection ... Tejano music ..... or whatever ...
Ray: Uh-huh.
DL: Does sound like an idea to you?
Ray: That sounds like a good idea because that way the individual gets to hear what he or she wants to hear. Its not ... there's so many types of Tejano music, you know, the way Tejano music is, it's kinda half Mexican and half country kinda mixed in it. It's got a combination to it. But that suggestion is good, because that way the person gets to choose what he wants to hear.
..: ..... like a juke box ... ?
DL: More like a video, a little enclosure like the .... see the band and hear the music and you can say this is what this looks like, this is what that looks like ...
..: Our popular singer.
DL: Oh, yes.
..: And bring that in. But also, music is not only the rich Sally ...... (Session II)
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and famous we know about, but as you say, the guy who's playing the wedding music, or just performing the accordian, the whole music vignette could possibly incorporate all that.
..: Like marimbas, we hardly don't see anymore, but I mean ...
DL: Right.
..: I love them.
..: There are a lot of people ... used to do on the corner and this is what you'd see ... you do the accordian, singing family, mariachis, young kids ... a lot of kids sing nowadays ... mariachis, I don't sing now, mariachis ... and older mariachis, you know, different people, religions they have choirs, you know, a lot of things, ..., don't they?
Ray: Yeah, they do. As a matter of fact, my compardre, which we play in the band together, he started playing in a mariachi group since he was about 12, so now he ... he still kind of plays ... but he plays more accordian now, he plays with a Tejano band as well, ........
..: Right.
..: What about particular playwrights? Do you know people who might write plays ...
..: Or people who might be willing to come?
..: .... people that you might we able to direct us to?
..: Act, you say? Or write?
..: Who might can help actually .... put some play together.Sally ...... (Session II)
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..: Carol Zuniga, I think I gave him the last name before, I think your wife knows her, she does the ... she puts a play for Our Lady of Guadalupe, she puts a play for the .... Carol Zuniga. And she also does the ............ and her father also sings in the .... I can't think of his last name right now ... he does the mariachis at .... I can't think of the church, but he's a famous mariachi in the city.
..: What was his name again?
..: Carol Zuniga.
..: Carol I got ...
..: Carol Zuniga. But I remember her father, but she ....
..: Her father.
..: Yeah, and she does the play for the Vergen de la Guadalupe, she has done it together for us. And my ......, she's done that.
..: Let's see. I guess we could move on to the next. What we have here is a whole list of topics that might also be addressed in this exhibit. And what they're probably going to have to do is narrow this list and probably other possibilties down to what will work and what is feasible and what we can do in this small area. And the question that we were to pose to you was - how do you feel about the appropriateness of some of these topics and given ... you haven't really, Raymond, a chance to look at this to see what it's about. But this is the combined Mexican-Spanish area of the Institute which will Sally ...... (Session II)
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be transformed into a Tejano area and its a terrifically broad topic with lots of different innuendo and statistics and feelings and all of that that they are trying to compress in this one area. But we'll just throw some of these out. Let me read them all out at once and then we can talk about them. Education, religion, work, social class within the Tejano community, public and private sides of the culture, gender, sexuality, poverty, and discrimination, organizational life, civil right, political empowerment, artistic expression, you know, there's just a whole bunch of things.
..: Artistic expression ...
..: Artistic .... (laughter) ... a whole bunch of things that are so broad!
..: One of the things that they wanted to know earlier when Cynthia was up there was talking about ... themes for a mural. What kinds of things would you like to see because they are planning to have a couple of murals? What kinds of things might be appropriate to put in that mural?
..: And some of these topics could even address that. Yes.
DL: ... stick to the microphone in front of you .... operating under the permission that your wife gave .... we asked earlier of anybody object to being recorded and she said no, that she didn't ... no, if you object we'll cancel her permission. Okay. That's why we're sticking ... we're not doing this just to be rude.Sally ...... (Session II)
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Ray: No, that's alright. If you're going to put some murals up there, I think ... for this is a Tejano area ... there's so much ways you could go though. For me, personally, I would like to see a mural up there of a neighborhood or a family gathering or a party or a wedding. Something like that. Within the community. The traditional ... the way it used to be. Because now, everybody just goes and rents a hall and ... there's the band ...
..: Right.
Ray:.. But in the traditional way, it used to be at home ...
..: In the home.
Ray: Yeah. Everybody would set up outside or inside the house, they'd move everything out of the way and that would be the traditional. Something like that. The majority of them could relate to it because they know how it is, how it used to be and the way its come to. Maybe have something like that. Then another one to where it starts to show progression of time, of how things have changed, how differently things are done. Things of that nature.
..: Um. Uh-huh. And how the old traditions are maintained today but ...
..: Melt into the new.
Ray: Right.
..: Melt into the new, that's ...... yeah.
..: Fused with the new generation, sort of.Sally ...... (Session II)
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DL: ... not the way we'd like them to be ....
..: Of course.
..: There's a lot of riches in the new and there's a lot of riches in the old that we can combine together and go a different way. So I think ... I think ... yeah, I think that's good. But I said earlier, don't forget ... I hate to say it ... the negative things also ... the negative things like wars ...
..: Uh-huh. I just remembered .....
..: Discrimination, ...
..: Absolutely.
..: You know, things like that. I have a picture they gave me of my grandmother, it's a group of nurses, volunteer nurses, well, she was a volunteer, and it was like Red Cross, I don't know what they call it New Braunsfels at that time, because there was a lot of discrimination in New Braunsfels, but, you know, I was surprised that my grandmother was a volunteer like a Red Cross, but they were not called Red Cross, I don't know what they were called at that time, so I was, you know, shocked, I said, "My grandmother used to do that." And it's a good picture and I said ... I didn't realize that. It was like the small towns my grandfather used to ...... and he used to be one of those rebels about, you know, we need to change, we need to educate our kids, which were not very educated at the time. Those are true, those are things that happened in history.
..: Uh-huh.Sally ...... (Session II)
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..: That's right.
..: And how much we have progressed and how much we need to change, also, our attitudes.
..: Yes.
..: 'Cause there things we need to change also.
..: Yeah, but you cannot ignore the conflicts either.
..: You cannot ignore the negative, ... Mexican-American ... positive and they still are.
..: Yes.
..: They still are.
..: You need to really show though, yes, these conflicts happen, this is how we've been working to resolve them. We need to leave people with an up, but you ....
..: ... pardon, ... we have a good concept of ourselves, but we're proud of who we are, ... limitations, because we all have limitations, we should be proud of other people, you know. We are working together to build a better world. I think those are things that we need to make sure that we do it.
..: Absolutely. ... Someone at one of the other tables was talking about a sign that somebody has that shows, you know, the ... I don't know the .... the two separate water fountains or it was, you know, negros may not come in ... blacks .... Mexicans may not come in here, you know, just total isolation which with the people who are from the south remember that with the blacks and the whites. When I first .... to Pennsylvania Sally ...... (Session II)
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and moved or went down to visit in Washington D.C., I was appalled. Well, that same thing was going on here in Texas, exactly the same.
..: When I was a teen-ager I remember how I was. We went to small town because we used to travel a lot, I had .... different relatives, we went to the restuarant to eat and there were four of us, my father and my mother, and this man, it was a small little town, can't remember where it was, he just turned around to look at us and I started laughing 'cause I've always done that, and my father said, "Behave." But I was laughing at that man looking at us so funny, that we were sitting down and eating at our own table. And my sister said, "Oh, he was just looking at us because we were Mexicans." And we always like to say the words "I am an American." But, you know, I didn't realize that. But I laughed, I started laughing because he ... looking at us like ...
..: That's his problem. I thought it was funny. I thought it was funny, really. But, you know, those are things that happen.
..: And we shouldn't really ignore those.
..: No. No.
..: But they're all in the past. And now is the future.
..: They need to be documented as well as what we did .... yeah.
..: Uh-huh. To grow. Sally ...... (Session II)
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Ray: I had an experience like that once. I had gone with a friend of mine, Darrel Blackwood, you know, we go fishing a lot together, and he used to live out in Atascosa County and before we pulled out into the main highway, he said, "Ray, ... go in there and buy us a pack of cigarettes." I said, "Sure." So I got off and went in there and was buying the cigarettes and I heard this man calling me, "Hey, you, ...." ..... "You're a Mexican, aren't you?" I said, "Yeah, I'm a Mexican-American, sir, that's right." He said, "No, no, no, listen to my question, carefully." I said, "Okay, go ahead." "You're a Mexican?" I said, "Yeah. I'm a Mexican-American. Yes, that's correct." He said, "Oh, no, no, no, no." About that time his buddy started, "Leave him alone, leave him alone." I thought this man is funny, he's crazy. Again he asked me, "You are Mexican?" I said, "Look, I'm a Mexican, okay, I was born in the US." That was my point to him! He'd already had too many, said ... okay, that's fine. Then he started laughing about it and stuff. And I walked out, I said, "Jeez, I couldn't believe this stuff is still going on! And I thought it was funny how somebody could actually have that mentality to still have that in their mind, embedded ....
..: ... such a problem ...
Ray: ... you know, that kind of thing is just ... to me, people are people, doesn't matter what you are, we're all the same.
..: Yeah.Sally ...... (Session II)
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Ray: To me it was funny.
..: Of course, there are wars being fought right now ... people are killing each other ...
..: Yeah ....
..: Kind of ... not over ...
..: .... I think another thing that I think in my generation our parents taught us to have more respect for people. I think ..... to have respect for all the elderly. When .... our generation, even though I make sure my nieces, I think a lot of times we've lost respect for each other and respect for ourselves. I think there's something in the Mexican that we were brought up ... you need to respect people, you need to be polite to people, and I think that's one thing that we've lost some of it, the younger generation, the respect for religion, the respect for each other, and for ourselves, as people. I think that's one thing ...
..: ... lost it.
..: I was going to say, I think that is
..: It's all over.
..: It's all over.
DL: Do you think the Mexican-American culture retained it longer than some of the others did perhaps.
..: Yeah. I think we sort of ... I think we need to bring that to all the young kids, the young kids to have respect for different values, different ideas, different cultures. And Sally ...... (Session II)
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they all are rich, all of them are rich.
..: Everyone of them is rich.
..: All of them are rich.
DL: Did you like ... the lady over there who said, "I live in both cultures. I get the best of both worlds."
..: Yes.
DL: I love that part.
..: I love that part. That's true. Somebody asked me and I said, "I think in both languages. I speak in both languages." Without thinking I speak in both languages, I think in both languages and I think there's good things in both cultures.
..: Uh-huh.
DL: If you could take the best of each and put them together, you've got the best of all worlds.
..: Uh-huh. Yeah.
DL: ... partially ...
..: True.
..: What would be really good for your kids to see in this exhibit? What would, you know, if your kids were going to come in to this exhibit, you want them to leave it feeling good about themselves. A little bit more knowledgeable. What would be a really neat thing for them to be able to do ..... , a neat thing for them to be able to see when they get up there?
..: For my little girls, toys period. (laughter) That's all it would take. For my boys, my two sons, they really don't Sally ...... (Session II)
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speak Spanish all that much, we try to talk to them in Spanish at home, they're kinda ... eeee ... everybody speaks English. I say, "You gotta learn Spanish!" .......
..: You know, you bring up a good point with the toys.
..: Well, what kid doesn't like toys? Hi, Phyllis.
..: I know. Is it the same? Is is a Hispanic Barbie? Is it a white Barbie? Does it matter? Those things are important. Or is it just .....
..: Just toys.
..: ..... anything that kids like. Just plain toys.
..: Yes.
..: To address the children.
DL: ......
..: Yeah. How do you do that? And along that same subject, kind of really, you know the Institute is so good about public programming, we've had Celebrate Native Americans, Celebrate Polish-Texans and all these other celebrations and when we do Holiday Traditions Around the World they make ....... but there's more to it than that. What kind of public programming would be good if we were to celebrate the Tejano culture at the Institute? What would we want to have? Keeping in mind that .... generally family programs?
..: ......
..: Clowns. Clowns, Sally. Three hours! One to four! (laughter) Sally ...... (Session II)
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..: It doesn't just have to be to celebrate. ......
..: Doesn't have to be celebrate.
DL: What kind of public programs?
..: What would be important?
..: What would be important? To celebrate.
..: What activities? What games growing up as kids? What family traditions?
..: I think if you could combine all of them together. The tradition, then I think that I would like my nieces, even my younger nieces, to think about, is that we celebrate life together, and that means everything together. The good and the bad, the 15, the weddings, the dance ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... everything. That we should celebrate together as a family. And life together. I think that's so important and I think .... we ... my grandmother was 100 years old two years ago that she died, my father is in his 80s, I'm in my 50s, my nieces in their ..., you know, younger, 11, so there's been a lot of changes in the generations. And all of us ... celebrate all of that together, there was enrichment in my grandmother's being hard-headed in different areas, my father, you know, ... and the beliefs they had, and I think that's important. Not only celebrate ....... and all that, Cinco de Mayo, that's just part of our history. That's just part of our history that happened, but now together is that we celebrate all that as Sally ...... (Session II)
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a unity together. I don't know how else to say it. I don't know ... I mean, I don't know what I'm saying ... to celebrate. But that's .... we celebrate, you know, we celebrate a .... wedding, a 15 year old together, birthdays, whatever we do we celebrate as a unit.
..: Are there things that you did in your family when you were a young man that you are ... your children don't know about or there's kinds of .... or are you pretty traditional at home?
..: No. Pretty much the same, I guess. But since how things have changed so much too now. The way kids see things. For instance, when I was a kid, every Sunday we'd go to my grandmother's house. And the picture that I always see, and I get a warm feeling inside, is that we'd always pull up to her house, grandma was there with open arms ...
..: Always.
..: ... a real old lady, and she's still alive, you know. But the stereo would be blasting out Flaco Jimenez, you know. Not Cisco Martinez. And everyone would gather at her house and we'd walk into the kitchen and there would be tons of sweetbread and coffee over there, and food over there. And everybody just talking about work and what happened and this and that. Like she was saying, some good stuff, some bad stuff ...
..: Oh, yes.
..: ... but everybody knew about it, everybody talked about Sally ...... (Session II)
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it. And I would go outside and run around in her backyard and that was fun to me. That really stands out to me. And the best thing I used to like was like, "Okay, we're leaving already!" So, okay. And grandma would always give us a tour of all her yard, all the plants she had, "... and this is this kind of plant, and it's good for this. And if you cut yourself, you can use it on that." And then she'd go on to the next one ...
..: ........
..: ... Yeah. All around.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
TAPE II, SIDE 1.
DL: ... maybe I missed something when I was changing that thing and putting the batteries back ...
..: Oh, yeah, tell 'em about your ...
..: Yeah, you didn't ... (laughter)
..: Oh, ...
..: (laughter) The toy.
..: It was just somethings we used to do. We'd get a regular piece of board and just put two pieces, one for the handle and one back here, and then put a clothespin, put a little nail, put the thing like that, just shoot ....
..: Ready to go.
..: Yeah. Shoot rubber bands at each other. It was fun. My mom one time, I remember we were real poor, I was bored at Sally ...... (Session II)
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home, nothing to do, she was out there hanging up clothes at the clothesline, I said, "Ma, I ain't got nothing to do!" "..........." And so we sat down, had a carport in the backyard, sat down there, ....
..: .......
..: Pardon?
..: .........
..: I don't know. Sorry. Anyway, we sat down and she went and got this glass of water. Said, "What are you going to do with the water?" (laughter) "I'm not thirsty!" "No, no, no." We sat down ... and then ... there was some dirt right there, she pour the water on the dirt and she started making this little ball. "Ma, what are you doing?" She said, "I'm going to make you a little figurine." "Okay." She sits there and she makes this little head and she gets another ... out of mud ... and she makes this body and she puts the head on and then she used toothpicks and put the toothpick beside it and made the arms and stuff and boy, I thought that was great like, "Wow! You made that out of mud!" (laughter) So sure enough I spent the whole day creating ...
..: How wonderful.
..: I made a big mess. ....... kind of like that. (laughter)
..: Creativeness.
..: Yeah.
DL: Your parents still alive?Sally ...... (Session II)
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..: My father is, yes.
DL: Do you still get the kids to go over and visit on Sundays occasionally?
..: Yes. It was. Occasionally, we don't get out there ...
DL: It's not a regular thing that you do?
..: No. Not like the way it used to be.
..: I think we ... I think we lost it.
DL: It's a regular thing in our family with two of our kids. The third kid, you know, I should come by there every Sunday. ...... tradition ........ we've been so busy though, things change.
..: Yeah, they really do.
..: Exactly.
..: He was saying, it came to my mind is, you know, with the ache, ........,
..: Oh, yeah.
..: ... remember my mother, we used to do that. I ...... she was always checking with that ... I remember that, you know, yeah. I remember that. Yeah. I don't even remember the herbs that she would ... holy water throw ...... so the devil would get away from you and everything else. (laughter) Those are things that did happen in the family. I think those are things ... I had forgotten some of them.
..: My grandma is a real hero to me because when I was about, I guess, six years old, I was with my mom downtown and she said, Sally ...... (Session II)
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"Are you hungry?" I said, "Yeah, I want to eat." She said, "Okay." So we stopped at this place called Coney Island, they used to sell hotdogs. "Yeah, I want one. Want a hotdog, Mom." So okay she buys me one. The first bite I just ... I guess I took such a big bite that the weiner lodged in my throat and I couldn't breathe, I was choking, and my mom was terrorized, you know they didn't have this stuff, do this and do that in those days, it was kinda like you just banged the kid in the back until he spits it out, so it took awhile, it finally came out, I was terrorized too, I couldn't eat. Everything I would eat I couldn't swallow it because I had the fear I was going to choke on it. So it went on like that for maybe about 4 days and my mom started getting worried, he doesn't eat, he doesn't want to eat, you know. The only thing he can do is drink. So they took me over to my grandma's house and my grandmother is a curandera, you know, she used to practice curandera, so grandma, you know, mom told her this and this is happening ... my grandma said, "Okay." She turns around and gets this little jar like that and it tasted like lemon, 'cause she told me, "Drink this." Okay, I drank that. "Okay, now what, Grandma?" "Just go in and lie down here." So I lie down on the bed and I remember her putting a white sheet over my whole body, I don't know, she recited something and then she asked me, then I felt wetness, and then she asked me to turn around, and I lied on my stomach and then she grabbed the skin on my back and popped Sally ...... (Session II)
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it.
..: (laughter)
..: She would pull up on it and it would pop. And it didn't hurt, it would just pop. And the next thing I know she says, "Okay, you're fine. Go buy him something to eat." I didn't feel different. But my dad stopped and bought us some hamburgers, you know, and they were really catering to me, "Here, here, have this!" "Okay." And boy, that hamburger tasted good! (laughter) Told .... "You're okay now, I don't have to buy you anything ...."
DL: Your grandmother took care of you.
..: Yeah.
DL: Is your grandmother still alive?
..: Uh-huh.
DL: How old is she?
..: She's 86.
DL: Gracious. .... very good .... her on tape.
..: Yeah, she sounds like ......
..: Oh, yeah, she's neat. She'll tell you some nice stories.
..: Yeah. Those are part of the culture ....
DL: Yes ....
(mixed conversation)
..: Curanderas ....
..: Yeah .....Sally ...... (Session II)
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..: ... but it worked. ....
..: Yeah.
..: I don't know what she did, but I could eat.
..: Yes.
..: .........
..: ......... that's what she said it was.
DL: Uh-huh. I've heard that word before, too.
..: ........
DL: Yeah. Yes. Well, they're going to give us about .... minutes, maybe not.
..: Yeah. You have another question?
..: Anything else that you think we should include?
..: ........
..: Organizational life. I guess that's talking about organizations that you belong to?
..: Organizations or structure or you know, ......
..: You know, I think that ... I was telling this friend of ours ... especially with the Guadalupanas Federation, they gave me an opportunity to be ... you know, since I'm not going to be in a professional thing ... I do at work, but not that much, gave me an opportunity to plan a statewide convention in August, like COPS and Metropolitan, I think that gives people the opportunity to be ... to learn how to organize to be leaders. So I think those are important things because it gives a lot of people opportunities to get involved and to learn some skills Sally ...... (Session II)
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on how to do leadership, how to organize and I think they are very important because like I said, you know, people who are not that educated and we're not going to be in a profession where we can do that, but either the church or political have given us that opportunity to be able to do that.
..: Sure.
..: And that's great. Because otherwise we wouldn't have the opportunity. Not unless we're in a certain job, you know, or profession. So that gives you the ... to really ... and that gives you more self-esteem, that you're able to do something, even if it's on a lower level of ...... So I think those are important ... that people should be involved and be given the opportunity to learn how to use some skills. They might not even think that they have them, you know. Each of them can be able to do things in a smaller scale, that they can organize, they can be in charge of different things in a small scale. So I think that's important. That's in American culture, I think it's in ..... culture that has sort of ... it's just like an opportunity jobs, they are not as great as they used to be. My sister just returned from Kelly, she didn't go to college because she couldn't, she wanted to be a school teacher, I mean she made good money. She retired on a good salary in '56. But there's not those opportunities anymore for a lot of people. And that's kind of ... I think we have oppressed, you know, it has been oppressed, but that's just society overall, I Sally ...... (Session II)
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believe. You know, it's just an oppression that we have done to kids. You know, a lot of kids over there they don't realize the opportunities that they can do if we give them the opportunity to develop some skills.
..: .... take .....
..: Yeah, I think the church ...... to do that.
..: ........
(background speaker)
END OF SESSION II TAPE. SIDE 1. ABOUT .. MINUTES.