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Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, El Paso, Texas, Part 3, May 21, 1994
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Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, El Paso, Texas, Part 3, May 21, 1994
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THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso
INTERVIEW WITH: Irma Rubio, Catherine Soriano,
Ricardo Rios
DATE: 21 May 1994
PLACE: University of Texas at El Paso, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Lawrence O. Galvan Jr.
G: This is Lawrence O. Galvan Jr., El Paso, Texas, 21 May 1994, Community Advisory Meeting at UTEP. This is tape 1, side 1, session 1.
rr: Do I sign this or ....?
G: If you don't mind, sir, yes, in case we do use some of your comments or anything like that. It's just a ... I think it's just a release form.
Before we start I'd just like to make you ... if you'll give me you name so we can recognize the tape when we edit it. With me at the table we have ...
Rubio: Irma Rubio from UTEP.
CS: Catherine ......... Soriana from the El Paso Community College.
RR: Ricardo Rios ... from everywhere. (laughter)
LG: Good. Okay. Judging from the responses we were getting out there ... it seems like it's a ... it's not that different ... that people don't know what they want to be called. Let me start by asking you ... what would you call yourselves?
RR: Well, you know, it's kind of funny ... for me I went through a transformation in that ... just like everybody else ... I'm originally from Mexico ... I was born and raised in Juarez ...
LG: Okay.
RR: ... and when I was 18 I joined the US Air Force. And I remember people asking me ... you know ... what I was? ... what are you? And I would say ... Well, I'm Mexican. And the repsonse was ... like ... Well, that's what I thought you were, but where I come from that's kind of a bad thing to call people. And ... you know ... I mean I was flabbergasted.
LG: Yeah.
RR: Surprised and shocked. And I said ... Well, not me ... I said ... I'm very proud being Mexican.
LG: May I ask you what year was this?
RR: This was ...
LG: ..........
RR: 1959.
LG: '59 ... '60. Okay.
RR: And so I learned ... that was my first interaction with other Mexican-Americans .... ... outside of my own immediate family ... which live in El Paso ... on my mother's side. So it was a revalation ... because I could not understand why anyone would not be proud of being called "Mexican."
LG: A Mexican ... yeah.
RR: And ... well, the thing is that nowadays ... I mean I tell people ... if you want to call me Hispanic, fine ... if you want to call me Chicano, that's fine ... if you want to call me Mexican-American, that's fine ... you want to call me Mexican, that's fine. Because I'm all of those ... plus ... (laughter) 3
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... so to me the label doesn't mean anything.
LG: Okay.
RR: As long as the contribution and that the cultural identity is made known ...
LG: Known. Okay.
RR: ... and respected. I mean ... that's what's important.
LG: Alright.
RR: ........
LG: Okay.
CS: Well ... I'm a historian. From early on I was very interested in history because my father was ... he was a Mexican National all his life. And he knew he was Mexican ... he told us he was Mexican and he told us we had to learn from where we came.
LG: You came.
CS: Because my mother was also Mexican but she came to the United States at the age of 9 years old and became a naturalized citizen.
LG: Okay.
CS: So this was always at the forefront of who we were. But more important than this was our language ... was a cultural connection with our family in Mexico. The importance of learning English and Spanish at the same time. The importance of being Catholic. Because I was raised in the Catholic 4
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environnment ... went to a parochial school taught by nuns ... went to a high school taught by nuns ... where the focus really for that ... to be Catholic means to be world-wide aware of people as people and the contributions that they gave to the whole of society. I was always given a certain positive aspect of being bilingual ... bicultural. And not only just 2 languages but the emphasis to learn more languages. And so early on I wanted to make that my career. And so I started to learn French and Italian and then went into ... the whole idea of education was seen as very positive within my background. In terms of history I think this is part of the reason that there's so much confusion perhaps ... because as we get more access to education we learn more about what really happened. Or at least from many perspectives rather than from one perspective. As Ric ... I also encompass many of these terms ... Latina ... but as I teach my students I could also claim I am a ......... ... I am Chinese ... I am French ... I am the world ... because of the certain approaches that one has. And say ... as an art historian ... I have studied the history and culture of so many peoples from all over the world. And I feel that that is my right and my privilege because I am a human being ... this is the history of mankind. And the more versed I am in the things that have happened ... the better I am ...
LG: You are ... yes.5
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CS: ... in my specific geography and location. But going back then in terms of ... a cultural term that I identify with is Chicano. Because Chicano encompasses all ... it has that inclusivity. It brings in all of the terms ... all the races ... all the languages ... and more and more as we look into the 21st century ... for me that's what it's talking about ... diversity. I don't want to monopolize ... but that's ...
LG: ....... that's true ... that's what we're looking for. How about you?
IR: I think that one ... probably one of the most difficult questions to have to answer as you have found out. We're all called different things ...
LG: Exactly.
IR: ... and who we are has a lot to do with where we started. You came from Juarez ... you grew up here ... I come from rural Texas.
LG: Okay.
IR: I was not born or raised here but I came here as a young woman ... freshman student at UTEP.
LG: What do you mean by rural?
IR: I was born and raised in a rural community ... Fort Stockton, Texas, who was not part of the mainstream of borderland America ... borderland Texas. So I bring a very different perspective.6
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LG: Very much.
IR: So I grew up in a very segregated community ... we were in fact a minority ... being Spanish speaking ... so I grew up as a Mexican. Because that's what we were referred to ... we were the Spanish speaking community in that area and we were referred to as Mexicans ... so that's what I grew up thinking I was. Being Mexican was really a counterpart to being Spanish speaking as a group. It had nothing to do with being from Mexico. Because I am a 3rd generation Texan as I'd learned as ... you know ... you grow older and you ask questions ... Well, where did you come from? Because as a young child you're really not concerned about where you come from ...
LG: Exactly.
IR: ... because of ... the support is so small ... your family is really the extent of your support ... you don't look elsewhere. But as you grow older I think we begin to explore all of these different areas. When I came here I went through culture shock. I thought ... so many of them look just like me ... my goodness sakes. And all of the positions as a young woman going through high school we were excluded from a lot of different kinds of situations ... from different kinds of groupings and so when I came here to see people in business ... in education here at the University ... there were so many students that were sitting right along with me in English 3101 7
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... to me it was mind boggling. To hear people express themselves so well ... I ... I went through a phase a trying to absorb as much as possible ... and certainly the pride issue came into play. So I represent a very different element here in El Paso. To me this is a wonderful community to live in ... I've learned a lot about the community itself ... but more importantly about me ... being able to say who I really am and when I say Mexican ... Mexican-American ... every to be Chicana ... to me it's not derogatory ... it's all emcompassing. It's very difficult ... it's like saying ... you are either this or that ... and you have to chose. I don't like chosing those kinds of situations ... in those kinds of situations. I'd rather say ... I'm all of those things. Some days I'm this ... some days I'm that ... it depends on the group.
LG: Exactly.
IR: And so I'm ... being from or not being from this area ... I see things very differently. There are times again that I feel that being Mexican-American is going to get the word across a lot better than saying I'm Chicano ... because a lot of times ... even in this community ... people identify themselves as Chicano or Chicana ... and immediately you start to see the different ...
LG: Various.
IR: ... looks in people's eyes. So you have to be very careful. 8
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And I think coming from the University as well ... we have to recognize that there are ... there is that diversity ... and you have to pretty much play with those terms a lot and if people feel that they don't want to be called that ... they don't want to be associated with that term ... then we have to show that respect ... (speaks in Spanish) ............. ...
LG: ......... that's right.
IR: And I think it's very difficult for people to ... I think it becomes very devisive when we are asked ... identify yourself. It's very, very difficult.
CS: Or it's even worse when you are told ...
IR: Exactly what you are ...
LG: ..........
RR: ..........
CS: I think that's the big thing ... resistance to the term Hispanic ....
IR: Right ... right.
CS: ... because it was the term that was imposed upon all Spanish speakers ... unilaterally.
RR: You know ... I would not object to the term Tejano ... if that is used to describe a Texan that has either Mexican ...
LG: Spanish.
RR: ... roots or Mexican-American ...9
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IR: Uh-huh.
RR: ... or Spanish .. I mean ...
LG: Indigenous.
RR: ... that's ... if that's the intent to .......... a word that can encompass all that ... that's fine.
LG: I noticed when we were in the room there ... the point was brought up ... that Tejano represents everybody ... be you Chinese ... what have you ...
IR: Uh-huh.
LG: ... and what we're trying to do is make ... Phyllis was trying to explain ... the word Tejano ... is exactly what you just said ... we want it to just deal with the Mexicano ... the Indian ... the Spaniard ... because that's what we're combining ... the Spanish area at the Institute with the Mexican-American section ... but I think you pointed it out ... are the other ones going to stay the same? If you really stop and think about it you can't ... in doing what we want to do with this one ... we're encompassing all the rest of them. ....
CS: But then they're all Tejanos.
LG: Yes, ma'am. In that respect they are.
CS: But then that means you have to change all the other exhibits.
LG: Exactly. So maybe we have to change the titles.10
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CS: ........ just historical perspective here ... the Mexicano is the one that encompasses all things.
LG: Okay.
CS: Mexican-American ... Chicano ... Tejano ...
LG: Spaniards ... Indians.
CS: Americanos ... Spanish ... Indian ... because Mexicano is all of that. And I think that's the root for the Chicanos ... to take it from that.
LG: Uh-huh.
CS: The only thing was that ... when this movement began it was that they were not Mexican nationals ... because ... always the term is associated with the Country ... the national identity ... Mexico. Well, Chicanos look to Mexico ... no ... Mexico is not going to claim them ... Mexico is not going to defend them and support them ... so who are we? Right? Well, we're Mexicanos ... but we're here ... so what do we call ourselves? ... from the root of that ... Mexicanos. But Mexicano in Texas is ... what we're talking about now is not New Spain?
LG: No.
CS: The term Tejano was used in New Spain. The same way in New Mexico it was Hispano ... but there in New Mexico there are also a long list of terms from ... even New Spain ... from the time of New Spain ... people were calling themselves different things. So as we look at the perspective of our 11
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reality right now ... we are Texas ... the state in the Union of the United States of America.
LG: Right.
CS: And we're looking for the Texas identity. Not the Tejano.
LG: Not the Tejano.
..: .......
LG: Do you feel .......
..: ...........
CS: And that the name within Texas is the ... is the Texas-Mexicano.
LG: Okay. Do you think that we ought to think maybe using a term ... another title?
CS: Tejano also would seriously go against the whole Chicano .......
LG: What we're trying to do here.
CS: Because Chicano philosophy says ... Our ........ in the history of the Southwest and that's the root of the Aztec people in terms of their wandering ............ And that would really hit hard against the Chicano philosophy.
LG: Okay.
IR: I'd like to raise a question, ........ , the names of the other exhibits? In other words ... I think we can pretty much reach a consensus here that when you say the word Tejanos ... you mean everybody in Texas.12
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LG: Everybody.
IR: So now the idea is to move away from that and look at the different exhibits ... what do you call the other exhibits? Chinese ...
LG: Yes. Uh-huh.
IR: ... I saw something Chinese and so ...
LG: There's ....
RR: Scotish ... Swedish ... Norwegians.
LG: ... it encompasses all the 26 ethnic cultures that made up Texas as it was ... you know ... back in '68 when the Institute was started ... we got the Chinese area ... we have Scotish ... German ... Belgium ... French ... let's see ... Indian ... Anglo ... Afro ... we went through that ... first it was Negro ... and then they had the name changed and now it's Afro-American. Well ... I agree with you ... that Tejano does encompass everybody and what you're saying is ... we're just dealing the Mexicano ...
(mixed conversation)
CS: Putting myself in the perspective of the Polish and the African-American and the Japanese ... all of those others ... to say Tejano for all of them ...
LG: Uh-huh.
CS: ... is in a way going against them because it's taking the language ... Spanish ... and imposing it upon all of them.13
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LG: Uh-huh.
CS: And they might be offended by that.
LG: I hadn't thought about that.
CS: Whereas again ... Texas ... English ... that's what we communicate in ... yes with many accents ... yes with a lot of difference of ... let's say ... understanding of what we're talking about but it is the structure of the English language that we're dealing with. It doesn't negate the Spanish ...
LG: Uh-huh.
CS: ... as part of the Mexicano ... Chicano ... underneath that ... but ... Tejano underneath that ... the Hispano underneath that. The Spanish speaker completely under that. But when you take the Chinese and then you impose upon them ... tell them ...... ... not all that ........
LG: Yeah. Okay.
IR: 'Cause that's a ....
CS: ....... Texans. They are Texans today ... right now.
IR: 'Cause that's a Spanish word ... Tejano is a Spanish word.
CS: Spanish word ... from New Spain.
IR: Right.
CS: And it itself does not give the whole identity because Tejano itself was negating the whole indigenous background. It was alway Spanish ... Colonial.
LG: Uh-huh.14
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IR: ......
CS: So Tejano ... to give a Pole that ... to give an Anglo ... (mixed conversation) (laughter) (mixed conversation)
LG: ......
CS: What we're talking about is trying to find some commonality ... the commonality for all in this country is that we believe in the Constitution ... that political system that gives us that freedom of expression. Now yes, the language that most of us speak is English ... but that doesn't mean that you have to exclude your native language or the language that you learned ... means that we have to come to a recognition of ........ ....... bilingual reality here ... at least a bilingual reality.
LG: Sure.
RR: Am I hearing you right? Are you saying it should be Mexicano? or Mexican? .......
CS: In terms of the exhibit?
RR: Right.
CS: In terms of the exhibit ... yes ... Mexicano. Within all of the diversity of the ....... Chicano ... American ... Latino ...
IR: Hispanic.
CS: ... Hispano. Because to draw the line right here ... ........ Spanish speakers of the Americas ......... ........
LG: Yeah.15
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CS: ... or California ... because back and forth there are families that go back and forth ... Colorado ... Arizona ... even Miami ...
LG: Sure.
CS: To define we have to define in history ... then we have to define with respect to cultural background meaning that which you were given ... that space in which you were born ... that which nutured you ... your parents have never nutured you ... but they gave you ... and how you patterned yourself after them ... not to put that down as in Texas ... because that's the other thing that you really talk about ... Tejano identity ... the politics have got to come into that. And there's the Chicano ... the recognition that this Tejano has been discriminated against.
LG: Right.
CS: Because that's the reason that you have all of the manifestations ........ ... that's historically what's there. If you leave it out you're only giving a certain percent.
RR: I agree with that. I think if the exhibit is called Mexican ... you know ... that would cover everybody. Because ....... ... in terms of cultural influence Mexico has been a major ... major player in the ......... state of Texas ... how this state has evolved.
LG: Uh-huh.16
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RR: I mean it's becoming more Mexican ... rather than less ...
LG: Right.
RR: ... I mean ... it's the culture ... I mean ... when you go to Dallas ... you're in Dallas ... becoming more Mexican.
LG: Uh-huh.
RR: When I go to a convention in a Dallas hotel and what do they serve for lunch? Mexican food. (laughter) (mixed conversation) No ... I mean they served Mexican food ... I mean they had fajitas and all that stuff you know ... I said ... Gee whiz. But that's ... and I'll bet that is not only San Antonio that serves Mexican food ... and El Paso serves Mexican food ... but Dallas and Houston ... you go to Lubbock ...
IR: And even Lubbock ... I was fixing to say even Lubbock. (laughter)
RR: That's right. You go to Lubbock and they do the same thing.
CS: Yeah ... it's just Tejano food.
RR: It's a major cultural interest.
..: ...........
CS: Well, you look at a culture ... it's what ties you together in terms of language and cuisine and customs and ...
IR: Religion.
CS: ... religion ... beliefs ... all of those things. And 17
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if you just say Tejano ... it's ... you know ...
LG: ........ Okay.
CS: ... it's this great separation.
LG: ...... Okay.
IR: From all this other. It's ... I'm sorry ... it sounds like an effort to try and Mexicanize a term or a heading for this exhibit and by translating it to Tejano maybe the thinking was that it'll be all encompassing but it really isn't ...
LG: ..... Okay.
IR: ... because you pretty much cubby-holed yourself into just one area.
LG: Okay.
IR: And I would disagree with the term Tejano.
LG: So you might recommend that we change the title ... go with a different title.
IR: Uh-huh.
LG: What you were saying earlier ... if you were to go back home ...
IR: Uh-huh.
LG: ........
IR: Uh-huh.
LG: Is there much change there? as opposed to what?
IR: Dramatic change. The demographics show now that it is ... the population has split. Now it's predominately Hispanic 18
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... Mexican-American ... or whatever ... because of the immigration.
CS: Uh-huh.
IR: The whole city ... or town I should say ... has changed dramatically. The culture has changed dramatically too.
(mixed conversation>
CS: That's what happens with cultures. I'd like to offer just another historical perspective that is sort of an undercurrent to all of this. I have a great respect for the history of Texas following the Mexican .......... simply because of what from their perspective ... from their viewpoint of what they ......... people to go out and ...... harsh land ...
LG: Land.
CS: ... to create their own Texas as they saw it. Albeit all of these other things that went on ... but nevertheless ... from their perspective ... what they created also was this aura in the United States because of the breadth of the land ... because of the breadth of the money also ... because the capitol then became the center with a few people ... was this sense that Texas and also because it's the only state in the Union that ...... was a Republic of Texas ... this is part of its identity ... to try to retain its self as something big ...
LG: Big.
CS: ... as autonomous as not having any links with anyone else. 19
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To me the undercurrent of this wanting the Mexicano diversity within Texas to comply with the Tejano ... that's what it means ... it's once again ............... ... it's like .......... Now, we can be proud of being from El Paso, Texas, from wherever you are ... because that's what gave you your birth ... what nourished you in the very first place ... and I think that's very important wherever you are ... but we also have to see it in perspective ... that there is an awful lot of that overplayed in the state of Texas.
LG: Uh-huh.
CS: And it's growing in that ... because the population in Texas is bigger. I mean ... it just beat New York.
LG: Uh-huh.
CS: And it's first and those are votes ... those are votes.
LG: We had the ... yesterday afternoon we met with some high school kids from Bowie High School and there was very ... to me ... you know ... I was really taken aback ... because these kids ... from what I understand from their teacher, Oscar Lozano, he was in one of the other sessions ... I believe he said that's the only high school here in El Paso that's teaching Chicano studies and just walking into the room you see all these banners and posters and things and all ... you sense it ... that there's a sense of pride here that ... where in San Antonio is not. You go and see like maybe a Spanish class ... I mean that's 20
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as Chicano as you're going to get ... you don't have this Chicano studies as such as you have here ... and in talking to these kids their outlook is completely different than ..... Mexicanos in San Antonio are. And Cesar told me when we first came up here a couple of months ago to try and set this conference up ... he said ... You need to remember one thing ... this is not San Antonio ... people here in El Paso ... they're tripping over themselves to get out and make themselves heard. In San Antonio you just ........ but here's it's different. And one of the young ladies that was in the group was from Juarez ... she now lives here in El Paso ... but I asked her a question of being educated partly in Juarez and then coming over here for the last 4 years ... she's a senior now ... what the differences were in education ... because you come ... in Texas 7th grade Texas history ... right? ... so they teach it to you ...... the Texans or whoever wrote the books ... right ... now you were educated in Juarez ... how did they teach this? I mean ... did they tell you ... the Texans beat us out of this land ... or what? ... Yeah, that's what they teach us. But if you stop and think whatever country you're in and whatever state you're in ... they're going to print it the way they want you to learn it. And I was very surprised ... because I had never heard that from a person that had been educated in both places. And I heard it ... it just came out like that and say 21
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...... that's a completely new approach ... for me ... I had
never ...
CS: Well, that's a tremendous ........ education.
RR: That's true because ....
CS: From different perspectives. And the ideal of this
country that has not yet been fulfilled ... which is to offer
that diversity ... because what diversity builds in young people
is this self-esteem and pride in order to contribute to the
greater society ... to recognize their part in it but also that
they are part of larger ........ And when you have been denied
this as has been the historical reality in Texas ... what happens
is you get people who are ...... ... subservient to those big
powers and then that means that we're still in the Colonial
reality. Colonial reality here in the United States of America.
Why? Because we're blocked by the educational system that
says ... this is Texas history ... you've got to learn it this
way ... this is the way it is ... and there's no other way to
see it.
RR: You know that may be true in elementary grades and maybe
in high school here ... I haven't ... I should catch up on for
myself go in ..... class that teaches Texas history ... or a
relation between Mexico and the United States ... because I
learned Mexican history in Mexico ...
CS: Uh-huh.
22
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RR: ... and I took a course ... on purpose ... here at this University ... just to learn how it was being taught ...
CS: Uh-huh.
RR: ... and to my amazement the professor that I had was Dr. Timons ... taught Mexican history from the Mexican view point.
CS: Well, that's because it's Dr. Timons .......
(mixed conversation)
CS: He's also is looking at it from the Mexican perspective.
RR: Right.
CS: And you're talking about higher education ...
RR: Right.
CS: ... and certainly if universities and colleges can't offer that to students ... but the things that needs to begin is with children.
RR: Right. Yeah, to instill that pride. You know ... because ...
CS: The critical thinking can possibly ....
RR: ... you know that's one thing that I experienced with ... in the service ... that ... you know I could not understand this reluctance of calling somebody Mexican. And I said ... Well, I'm proud. And then it dawned on me that a lot of my fellow Americans of Mexican ancestory cannot know their own culture.
LG: Uh-huh.23
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RR: Okay. Whether ... well ... I would have to blame ... fault the educational system in this country ... particularly Texas ... does not go beyond and teach the kids their own history. So I think Bowie effort is ...
LG: Oh, man, that's ....
CS: Yes, and it's growing because the high school in Santa Elizario has a strong ...... group ... there's a young ........ group. There's a young woman that I met here at Jefferson that is also beginning a ......... group.
LG: Uh-huh.
CS: The ....... group ......
LG: Yes.
CS: ... is focusing. At the Community College our ........ group has lobbied for a Chicano study's option in social sciences. And for the first time I'm going to put it in ...
LG: That's good. Um.
CS: ... this next fall. Which will mean then that students can take or overall within the .......... arts degree or as a preparation for coming here and continuing in Chicano studies or a double major in something else. The important thing is it gives them some options for going into this work world that is not ....... the reality (laughter) and when you have a Chicano who can't speak Spanish nor English ...
LG: He's in trouble.24
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CS: ... you know ... how's he going to get a job?
LG: Well ......
RR: You know ... in my experience working with different organizations what I have learned ... as in the business community particularly ... in El Paso ... is that a lot of the role models that were ... that are of Mexican origin have been totally ... totally forgotten even in El Paso.
IR: Uh-huh.
RR: My favorite subject is a man by the name of Felix Martinez. If you look at even the history of El Paso that's written by ... somebody like Leon Metz ... or ..............
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
RR: ... you'll find either no reference to Felix Martinez or a very minimum one-line sentence on Felix Martinez. Now this man died in El Paso in 1916, he was the most prominent ... the most prominent Hispanic in the United States when he died. He lived in El Paso from about 1898 to 1916. He was the only Hispanic on the first board of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas when it was created. He was the chairman of the El Paso - Juarez User's Association. He controlled the water. He pushed the U.S Corps of Engineers to build Elephant Butte Dam when it was built.
LG: Um.25
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RR: He selected the site. The site had been originally proposed right here by .......... ... right here by the University. But that could have ... would have flooded all of the ......... Valley and there would have been no Los Cruces and there would have been no ........... in New Mexico ... because it would have been under water. So they ... he worked on another site and that's where ... you know ... at Elephant Butte Dam was built near Truth or Consequences ... because of Felix Martinez.
LG: You said there's no mention .... ?
RR: He was ... he owned land ... he built ......... Central Park downtown El Paso ... he built The White House Building ... he built the ... it was a building where Newberry's Stores ... .......... Newberry's was located ... he was one of 6 investors that put in money to build the El Paso del Norte Hotel and his company built it. Yet you find very little reference on Felix Martinez in El Paso. There is no street named after him ... there is no school named after him. What else did he do? He was an ambassador for the United States. I've seen letters addressed to him and signed personally by President Wilson.
LG: Um.
RR: Willimas Jenning Bryan, Secretary of State, he was one of 3 ambassadors to the U.S. - Panama Exposition in San 26
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Francisco. And he was sent on a tour of South America. That was one of his last ... ..... last official. And there's letters ... there's documentation ... there's a wealth of material. I have seen 7 scrapbooks of material on the man. Yet, you talk to the historians locally ... and they will tell you ... Well, there's no material on him ... on this man. Well ... I mean ... to me ... there was a serious attempt to ... back then ... because of the politics of the day ... to totally forget ........
LG: ...... ignore .......
IR: And I think you're raising a very good point. That doesn't only happen here in El Paso ... it happens in the Fort Stocktons ... the Larados ... the Brownsvilles ... it happening all over. And many ... maybe one of the missions for the Institute is to really dig into history and see what's available. But in Fort Stockton it was pretty much the community was run and owned by Spanish surname people. You don't see ... you didn't see that at the turn of the century and certainly after the turn of the century. What happened?
CS: McAllen is much like that also.
IR: That's what we want to know. And I think that .......
(mixed conversation)
LG: That's right. Because we went to ... we had one of these committe meetings in Edinburg ... in the Valley ...
CS: Oh, yes.27
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LG: Okay ... and to hear you guys ... trying to remember what I got from the people down there ... I was fortunate to have in my group the first Hispanic mayor of Edinburg ... ........ Rameriz ... and we were talking and he just ... one of the other gentlemen in my group said ... If you want to interview anybody this is the guy you need to get on tape because he's got a lot of information. And he said he was the first Hispanic mayor of Edinburg. So I'm thinking ... No, the first Hispanic mayor was Cisneros in San Antonio. You know. And this ....
(mixed conversation)
RR: Ray M...........
LG: And this guy tells me he was ......... ...
(mixed conversation)
I said ... Wait a minute ... everybody's got one.
RR: No ... no.
CS: No ... what Ric raised was a very important point ... world-wide. And that is the shift from looking at things happening only in the main-stream ... that which is controlled by the powers-that-be. And that's what is history. Too ... what we have today which that multi-cultural perspective. Because Ric is a businessman he found this person that interesting and kept looking ...
LG: Kept looking .....
CS: ... but if he hadn't developed ... first of all ... with 28
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that idea that there are different perspectives because of his education and because in some way he was raised ........ you've got to think critically ... don't take everything you hear for truth.
LG: Right. Yes.
CS: It's only a perspective.
LG: It's like one lady said ... what they want you to know.
CS: There are no real authorities. There are no real authorities. And yet what we're getting from main-stream education is the big cultural centers ... New York ... Washington ... Los Angeles ... Chicago ... anything comes out of there in terms of the art historian in me ... this is constantly ....... ... if it doesn't come through those galleries it just isn't good ... right? And so as I'm doing my research here in Spanish Renaissance even ... the Renaissance Period being ........ in terms of Western World ... Spain was left out ... I said ... ........ something's happening ......... ... went into Spain ... lots of books in Spanish ... but not other people who .......... in terms of the way the world went ... at one point ........... that Spain cast upon the world ... you just shut up! ... Spain didn't exist anymore.
LG: Didn't exist.
CS: And the realities ... kept on ... there were people there ... there were people in .......... ... in .......... ... in 29
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Barcelona ... continuing that exploration because they were critical thinkers. Continuing to write ... continuing to be focused for the world ... you know ... traveling ... ................
LG: There it is.
CS: There it is. Therefore in education ... in terms of all the curriculum ... more cultural awareness has to be infused into politics ... into history ... into medicine ... into even botany ... right?
LG: Uh.
CS: All of these so that those people who working ...... can bring in their cultural perspective ... it's not just a question of learning all the major events of the Mexican Revolution ... but rather ... all of those little things that are hidden ... when you look at something you can make the connection ... make the connection and impart it then to world literature ... through history ... the whole ...
LG: The whole thing.
CS: ... compendium of the knowledge of the history of ideas. You know ... that's wonderful ... I mean ... you've got the material for a book ... and why can't you write the book? You know ... if you have the documentation and you do historical ...... and you present it in such way to the whole research world ... why wouldn't it have authority?30
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LG: They don't have any choice but to accept it. .......
CS: Why wouldn't it have a value? Just because you're not a historian you're a businessman? The language of research and investigation is that you have documents and that you can .......... There is a body of information and these are my conclusions based upon it X Y Z ..........
LG: Uh-huh.
CS: That's a universal language. ........ all of us accept to a certain extent. Scientific method can be also interpreted many ways ...
RR: See ... I take issue with the ... and I have seen the exhibit but ... and this book that I got there was ....
(mixed conversation) ... pictures that come from the Institute ...
LG: Uh-huh.
RR: ... okay. And those pictures are usually of Mexican laborers ...
LG: Uh-huh.
RR: ... either farmers or workers doing something else ... but it's always that image ...
LG: Stereo-types .....
RR: ... that's all ... that that's all we know what to do. So there's a great body of work that needs to be done ... we had bankers ...31
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LG: Sure.
RR: ... Felix Martinez was one of them ... absolutely. He was a capitalist ... he was an entrepreneur. Wonderful story. Yes ... and that story could make a movie. I mean it was great. Totally forgotten. Merchants ... you have bankers like Tony Sanchez and ......... from Laredo ...
LG: Uh-huh.
RR: They created ... I mean ... he created a financial empire out of originally being lucky enough to hit a gas well ... but you know ... he was smart enough to recognize that that particular gas well would bring him other wealth. And he created ... he created ... at the time of his death ... about 3 years ago ... he owned the biggest minority-owned bank in the entire country ... with over 2 1/2 billion dollars in assets.
LG: Um.
RR: ........... there are only 2 main banks in Lerado ... one of those banks was his. People don't know his story ...
(mixed conversation) ... I'd like to see ... I'd like to see pictures of people that were pharmacists ... I mean ... there's a family here ... the Arredondo family ... that my wife happens to be related to ... all the Arredondos became pharmacists and they established a chain of pharmacies here in El Paso ... you don't hear that at all ... I mean ... you know ... those are professional people.32
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CS: Um. In El Paso especially there's a silent history of so many people. In all of the professions ... the medical profession ... the ....... State Association of Hispanic Doctors ... is that what it is called?
RR: Right ... right.
CS: And it hasn't been researched. And this is what we're talking about ... Identity.
LG: Do you feel ....
CS: We have to respect it in its full, total human ... humaness. And the development has occurred on all levels.
LG: What do you attribute the fact that nobody's researched this? Is this lack of interest? Or just .... I don't know ... why?
CS: Well, the people who have been writing have focused on labor because that's where the greatest injustices have been. That's why the Chicano movement pivotted around the United Farm Workers ... because of the conditions that they were being ... the way in which they were been treated ... but by the same token this could be extended ... rather ... it's just that there aren't enough people there to be talking about these issues because when ... go back to education ... if people can't learn about Spanish ... the history of how the Spanish language came to be here in the Americas and all of its implications ... then how are they going to get involved in valuing what the Spanish 33
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people does in this country?
LG: Um. Go ahead Irma.
IR: My comment to that is I think that one of the reasons is that for a long time our group ... if you will ... as maybe you can compare us to any other ... some of the other ethnic groups ... is that it wasn't financially a benefit to do that. Now the United States is coming full circle ... if you will. And now ... pretty much because of the demographics that are involved at this point ... we are having to respond to that diversity. And now it's becoming very, very beneficial to the United States to start to get involved in that ballgame and that is to address the different issues of diversity. Because it means money.
CS: ........
IR: In every area and businesses across the country now ... look at the marketing strategies that are being used the country ... if not Texas. We know for a fact that many of the commercials that are aired here in El Paso that are done for McDonald's are not aired in the Midland-Odessa area. Why? There's a reason for that. They don't see the Midland-Odessa area as really in a position to be ... financially speaking ... they are still not ... the Hispanic community in the Midland-Odessa area still is not a viable community.
CS: Consummer.34
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IR: Comsummer ... at this point.
LG: Very interesting ... very interesting. Yeah.
IR: And they're not really seeing things the way the really are in Midland-Odessa. To them it's not an issue right now. But in the El Paso community we know ... Ric would ... probably is in a much better position to address this issue of economics. We have to respond to the Spanish speaking community.
RR: Absolutely. Buying power.
IR: You've gotta do it ... you've gotta do it.
RR: Even Mexico has recognized that ... as a country ... because for a long, long time ... until that program for the Mexican Communities Overseas or whatever they call it ... you know ... the one Salinas ...... established ...
CS: Yes, uh-huh.
RR: ... okay ... up until then they refused to recognize ...
IR: Mexicans outside.
RR: ... Mexicans outside their own country. And there was no assistance ... there was no help whatsoever. Now ... but see ... that came about in the recognition that the only community that could really have ... could have cared ... not pass ... was the Mexican-American community in the United States. Because ... at least on paper ... the people that are going to be most affected by that are the laborers that are of Mexican origin. Because they hold positions with lower 35
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wages. And since that is labor intensive and that shift is going to occur into Mexico. See the Mexican-American community have the most to lose so the Mexican government decided ... Hey, we'd better do something to get them on our side. So they started this program ...... Well, we're Mexican and you're Mexican origin ... we're going to help you ... and so forth.
CS: And it was a complete reversal because ...
RR: That's right.
CS: ... before any Mexican who did not live in Mexico was a traitor.
RR: Right.
LG: Um.
RR: Right.
CS: And so don't come to us ....
(mixed conversation) ...
IR: That's has existed historically.
CS: Yes, historically.
IR: And you see it today ... crossing the border there's that mind set that if you left Mexico you're a traitor ... you left the mother country ... to ... and I don't know if you've experienced ... but I have experienced it at ... in higher education ... you hear ... and obviously it was a really good conversation that we had but it was a mind set that some of 36
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the academicians from Mexico had. Why is it that you left? And you're going ... Well, maybe you know it was my ancestors that left ... I didn't leave and you're trying to explain yourself ... why it is that you're a marginal group almost. You're a marginal group here in the United States and you're also marginal when it comes to Mexico. Very different ....
RR: Well ... unless you go through that process as I did ... I had that mind set ... okay ... I say that I had it because I was raised in Mexico and I remember I just didn't understand ... I said ... .... mentality that any Mexican that lives in the United States is a traitor. But I think as I got to know and meet the people that were born here and they were raised here ... then I understood how typical and how outstanding it was for even for those people that had no cultural backing so to speak ... where they were being taught or being ... you know ... ....... role models to be proud of an ancient culture ... for them to still maintain some close links ... somehow ... with Mexico and the Spanish language and with Mexican culture and so forth ... was incredible in that we as Mexicans ... I mean talking as a Mexican national ... we did not understand ... and so now when I go to Mexico and I hear some caballero ... ......... ... and those kinds of stuff ... I say ... You know what? You have ... until you're put in those people's shoes you will never understand. You have got to work through 37
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that and understand. And somehow this program was .............. ... I think ..............
CS: Yes ...
RR: Not in the upper levels ... not in the upper classes ... the super wealthy kind of level ... because that's a much different mind set. I mean they have more in common with the Rockerfellows and the Mellons and that kind of thing ... so it's a total different ...........
CS: No, you're talking about the political face being given to the Mexicanos outside of Mexico.
RR: Right.
CS: And I think it's an economic thing also because they realized with the whole exodus that has occurred in the past century out of Mexico into the United States that there's an awful lot of money there.
LG: Sure.
CS: It's being spent in the United States. But if you're kind enough to that Mexican who's working in the United States he'll send home the money. And it will be spent in Mexico. You have to cultivate your clients and that's what essentially the Chicano is ... a client from Mexico.
RR: See and I think we have to ... originally I think you two were invited to be on the board of the ............... which is ... I think the first one was in San Antonio ...38
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LG: Yes, it's still there.
RR: ... 1963 or ....... ... ............. El Paso de Norte ...
CS: It's going to be a cultural center ... not an institute ... but nevertheless ...
RR: My participation as an El Pasoan ... okay ... I'm coming from the standpoint that the better presentation the better image of Mexican culture in our city the better it will be ...
CS: For everybody.
RR: ... for any American of Mexican ancestry. Because that is lacking in the schools. You know ... to give that sense of ...
LG: Pride.
RR: ... pride ... because I don't ... they're taught history of the United States ........... it began in 1621 and it's very concentrated on the east coast and everything else is like a little paragraph here and there that doesn't get anything.
LG: Okay ... so ... getting back to what the ... the concept of what we're trying to do here ... in the Colonial Period ... are you saying that we need to address the fact that the people were not being educated or that they were ... ........?
RR: Oh ... the Colonial Period?
LG: No ... we're going to start somewhere ...
RR: Well ... what I like to see is an exhibit that shows the 39
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influence of culture that was Spanish language ... dominant ... and then explain to people how much later English became a force. Because people in Texas have no idea ...
CS: Let me give you an example ... and this is something that we are battling here in El Paso ... to get more of an understanding of history. There is a Mission Trail Association ...
LG: Uh-huh ... .......
CS: ... that is trying to declare this whole area on the United States side ... Texas ... a historic area ... designate it a historic site.
LG: This is towards Socorro .......?
CS: Socorro ... San Elizario ...
RR: ............
CS: ... however ... historically ... in order to ........ the origins of this whole Rio Grande Valley you've got to look at both sides of the river and the reality is that the Mission of Our Lady of Guadalupe across the border was the first ... and it is still extant ... as the original ... and it was the first mission outside of the Basilica in Mexico City dedicated to the Virgen of Guadalupe. And in fact the first mission is this whole ...
LG: ..........
CS: ... endeavour of the southwest of the mission territory 40
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... now ... just that one item should delete from a focus of developing a mission trail ...
LG: Yeah.
CS: ... it's myopic.
LG: Yeah.
CS: And so you have to look at the whole thing. You've got to do some kind of contact with Mexico ... agreement ... contract ... to develop researchers who are international ... to be able to know what this region is ....
LG: Yeah.
CS: And see that's what I have against this demarcation of ......... ... for us it destroys our identity to be called Hispanic. It's like that same thing ... possibly having to look at the river like this.
(mixed conversation)
RR: And see ... that's where you see this approach to calling the region El Paso del Norte.
CS: Yes.
RR: Because that includes both.
CS: Yes. That's the original name.
RR: That Juarez had.
LG: Okay.
CS: And that was the original name that Cuidad Juarez had up to the 19th century.41
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LG: Paso del Norte?
RR: Paso del Norte.
CS: Paso del Norte ... ............... ... and then it developed these other missions on both sides of the river ... San Lorenzo ... San Jose ... .......... back and forth ... all the way down to San Elizar ... because San Elizario did not begin as a mission ... it was a barracks ... a fortress ...
LG: Soldiers?
CS: ... soldiers quarters ... with a chapel.
LG: Uh-huh.
CS: But the mission idea with the Franciscans and the whole idea of the .......... with the Indios ...
LG: Uh-huh.
CS: ... ........ so this is something that ... you know ... you find it in books ... but is not talked about. And then what is talked about as reality is what everybody else thinks ... Oh, that's what's happening. And then you walk in and ... Why does anyone listen to this? (laughter) ... A whole ... and of course that's what history is ...
LG: Uh-huh.
CS: ... and when you teach children history that's what you're teaching them. And that's why it is so important from the very beginning that they become critical thinkers and that they have that ability to go to different sources.42
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LG: Otherwise you think ...
CS: Otherwise you grow up feeling ... you know ... this ethno-centric view of the world ... what we talked about so much in 1992 ... saying ... you know ... ............ the conquistador ....... colonize the world ... right?
RR: You see in Texas history books I don't think you read the importance of El Paso.
IR: Sure we don't.
RR: As a stopping point ...
LG: I think the only mention that it's ... where it comes out more often is during the revolution when Villa and ... well ... when he was fighting against Carenza and all those ... this is one of his ...
IR: .........
LG: ... main places to come and get arms and stuff. But other than that ...
RR: Well not only that ... the fall of Juarez was the key battle because ... you know ... 2 weeks later .......... resigned and went into exile.
LG: Uh-huh.
RR: That ended the revolution ... when they finally took Jaurez that ended the revolution. But the thing is that ... you know ... the stream of people coming from Mexico that stayed here for awhile and then went out to California ... I mean ... El 43
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Paso has a mystique among Californians that the rest of Texas is not even aware.
LG: ......
CS: It's in ......... ... it's the origin ... it's the place of crossing ... you've got to come to El Paso.
LG: Uh-huh.
RR: Yeah ... I've had ... you know ... even ...
LG: You said that this was referred to as El Paso del Norte ... right? Where does this Camino Real come into play? Is this the same one? or what?
RR: It was a road ... it was a road.
CS: It was there because as the focus for the mission was established between Mexico City and Santa Fe which was orignally established by .............. in his crossing the river ... the need then to establish centers ... mining centers ... all along the road to Santa Fe ... then began this Camino Real. Because of the very prestige ........ People who were traveling from Mexico City through centers like San Luis Potosi ............ beginning at Zacatecas ... Luis ... .............. ... Chihuahua ... El Paso ... all the way to Santa Fe.
LG: Um.
CS: That's the Camino Real. Which was sort of lost when you had the Misery Trail ........ But they are both very important ... 44
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LG: Uh-huh.
CS: ... as connections. See ... again we're connected to all of that ...... Southwest ... it's outside of Tejas ... you can talk about the Mission Trail but only ........
(mixed conversation and laughter)
CS: You know ... we're back in a medieval mentality if we think that ... you can't go beyond that because you're going to fall off ... (laughter) ... nothing else there.
IR: Has the Institute considered working with researchers from Mexico?
LG: It's a ....
IR: We have a lot of really good people in Jaurez ...
CS: That's right and ...... University.
IR: and why does ...... University ....
LG: Okay ... something we might bring up. In the past I've been with the Institute for 23 years and in the past we have had interns come to us from Mexico. Matter-of-fact there is at the Hemisfair Plaza where we are located ... there is a branch of the University of Mexico that has classes and we get a lot of people from the University. I don't know whether these people ... why they're doing ... whether they just want to get ... let's say ... extra credit ... or what ... because it's been my experience that the time that they spend there when they leave if they did a report on what they researched or 45
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whatever ... it stays in the Library ... it is not made public. Prior to coming out here to set this thing up they sent an intern from Michigan ... University of Michigan ... she spent 3 months with us at the Institute ... and she went all over the state interviewing people like yourself ... but just one-on-one. And from that ... from her report ... and the only reason I got to read it was because I became a member of this committee. And I was put in charge of setting up the Community Advisory Meeting here. So I went looking for information about El Paso and in the report I had a transcribed tape of a conversation ... an interview with Cesar Caballero ... another one with the ............ in Socorro. And that was my contact. So when I came here I contacted these people and and that's what got all this going. But ... up until that ... like you said ... if you don't go looking for the information ... they don't tell you ... okay, this is ... we've got this here ... and whether they want to hear their point of view with respect to the topic of what do you want me to learn? ... what do you want me to know about it? Well, that's what we're talking about. Do we want to portray our version of it? from the ... say the United States side of it? ... or do like you were saying ... just up to the border? ... and not worry about what's coming from before that ... or what? ... maybe that's why they don't do ... I don't know ... but it's a good question and I'm going 46
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to address it to the people ... see what ... see what .......
... see what kind of excuse I get. .........
IR: I think to come up with an exhibit that addresses the issue
of where we come from ... you cannot leave Mexico out of it
in terms of historical information. That's taking
ethno-centricity to ... to ... you know ... it's ... I think
it would even be embarrassing to not do it. They must become
very much a part of the process ... because that's where we
come from.
LG: Okay.
RR: That's exactly ........
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso
INTERVIEW WITH: Irma Rubio, Catherine Soriano,
Ricardo Rios - Tape 2
DATE: 21 May 1994
PLACE: University of Texas at El Paso, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Lawrence O. Galvan Jr.
G: This is session 2, tape 2.
CS: Where are you going? We were talking about ethnocentricity. Yes.
RR: Right. Well, the best example is that ... my mind is ... how ... you know ... when you see the weather or you hear the weather being reported in El Paso ...
G: Uh-huh.
RR: ... or anywhere in the state of Texas just about ... the weather report doesn't show the map of Mexico. I mean it's like ...
G: It stops.
RR: Like the United States is an island ...
G: Is non-existent.
RR: I mean it's like ... I mean ... you see this empty space ... you know ... you see the outline of what the border is you know ... between the US and Mexico ... but there's nothing there.
G: ..........
RR: To me that's an affront. That's an affront. Because there's a country there.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2)
2
..: Uh-huh.
RR: I mean ... there's a weather pattern that affects us and they ought to show what the temperature is in Chihuahua City and Durango and in Mexico City because it's part of ... it's part of us.
G: Yeah.
RR: That's ... I mean ... I think that's the way ...
..: And we were in that situation for a long time. We've moved away from that but the rest of Texas has not. You'll see weather casts where Mexico doesn't exist.
G: Doesn't exist.
RR: Even El Paso doesn't exist. (laughter)
(mixed conversation and laughter)
RR: Even El Paso doesn't exist. I have actually seen ... books written by University of Texas professors where they named the biggest cities in the state and totally leave out El Paso ... totally leave it out. Like it's ... you know ...
G: Non-existent
RR: .......... (laughter)
G: Let me ask you guys a question ... what Tejano organizations or what Americano organizations do you feel that are important to portray? Like you mentioned M.......... ... somebody brought that out.
CS: Yeah. M........... It's a .......Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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G: That's a new one ... right? It's not ...
CS: No ... actually it's the heart of the beginning of the Chicano movement because it began with the students being aware that ... wait a second! ... we're not being told the whole truth!.
G: Uh-huh.
CS: And so it was a ... it stands for M..............
G: Okay.
CS: On focusing on who they were and where they're coming from ... it was just called .............
G: So aside from that one is there any other organizations that you feel like ....... LULAC ...
CS: LULAC of course.
RR: LULAC of late has shifted its focus ...
G: Yes.
RR: ... and has become more politically active .... the courts. I mean ... you know ... there are two landmark ......... ... you know one was Edwards ... Edgewood versus Kirby ... the other one is a higher education funding for the border universities and community colleges.
G: Okay.
RR: Okay. Those are very, very important lawsuits for the Hispanic community.
CS: Um. Connected with that at the moment. The other one in the higher education is the Texas Association of Chicanos Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2)
4
in Higher Education ... TACHE.
G: TACHE.
CS: Yes, that is the oldest of the new upper education faculty organizations having to do with the Latino minority education.
G: Um.
CS: It says in here specifically for the Chicanos in Texas. .........
RR: I think the Hispanic Chambers of Commerce around the state ... up until 1991 El Paso was the only major city in the state that did not have a Hispanic Chamber. And since the formation of the Hispanic Chamber in El Paso ... the competitiveness of the other Chamber has become more evident ... in trying to keep up with what the Hispanic Chamber is doing. So it has created a shift in El Paso that was not there before.
G: But it is a positive shift.
RR: Very positive.
CS: Very positive. To a community you have to have competition. You have to have different things ... you can't have the same thing. Exactly.
RR: .......... we're trying to prove to this community that we're really doing something for them and so they ...... kind of ... we're the ones that are doing this for you and we want to do more.
CS: Exactly.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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RR: Before no one would ever question ... say ... well, that's ... you know ... that's okay what they're doing ... and no one would say ... well, like are you doing enough? But now they know if they don't do ... that they don't do enough ... the other Chamber is going come in there and say ... We're going to do it.
G: Uh-huh.
IR: I'd like to see some mention of the GI Forum. They started in Texas with Hector Garcia ... I believe ... from the Valley. He definitely rallied around the issue of Americans of Hispanic descent ... or Mexican descent ... that were involved in the war ... what was going to happen after they came back from the war. I think that kind of mobilization is really important.
G: Yes.
IR: Because their focus was on education.
G: Uh-huh. Okay.
RR: ...... The heroes that we've had. The many Congressional Medal of Honor winners that even to this day .... recently Medal of Honor winner had some difficulty in having a street named after him. Because it was not known ........ whatsoever. But you know as a group ... as an ethnic group ... Mexican-Americans have won more Congressional Medals of Honor than any other group. And that fact is not recognized except by our community.
G: Uh-huh. That's interesting because a lady up there in Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2)
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... during break ... I was talking to one of the committee members ... she said ... I overheard her say something about ... What about the war heroes and things like that? We've got one here I think ... I've forgot what his name was ... and ... What about Buenavides ... and there's several. I said ... That has been touched on ... we're definitely going to have a section in there dealing with military ... what role it plays ... what ....... ... from what the lady was saying the kids need that ... they need to walk ........ Hey, we've got heroes that are .......... And it's something that's gone unaddressed like you said ... if you're having a problem naming the street after some guy that gave his life ... or whatever ... and so it's something that needs to be addressed. We totally agree with that.
RR: And also the connection between ... you know ... some Mexican National heroes that were born in ....... Texas ... you know ... like ......... Saragosa ... who was born in Goliad.
G: Juan .......
RR: He's the hero of the Cinco de Mayo battle.
G: Uh-huh.
RR: And that's not recognized in this country. .......
CS: Even here in El Paso where we have a Saragosa port of entry.
RR: Right.
..: Some other people who have given their lives for this country ... the United Farm Workers ... it's very important Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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to put in their ... as a special part of ....
G: You know ... it's interesting ...
..: ... Tejano identity in Texas.
G: ... in our community in .......... ... that was what they felt was a very important thing ... the fact that there were migrant workers and things like that ... and the farmers ... strive. In my travels with the Institute ... and I've travelled pretty much all over the state in my 20 some years there ... I find that the further north you get the less these people want to reflect back on that. For example in Amarillo ... I was talking to this gentleman there ... started talking about ............. and all that ... you know ... and I remember going to them ... you know ... I'm not ashamed ... they were part of my growing up. I think that it helped me ... kind of guided me in a more positive way of what ... the struggles that my parents had to go through ... and well, I experienced just a little bit and I made up my mind ... this is not what I want for my kids ... so let's make it better. And yet these people will deny it ... Oh no, that's the other Mexicans ... no ... that's ... Their parents were .... you know ... but they just don't ... like they chose not to address .....
CS: That they just eat the salad ...
G: Oh, yes ...
CS: ... and the fruits.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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G: It's good too.
CS: Okay.
IR: But the environment is not conducive to that.
G: No ... no.
IR: Here our comfort zone is wonderful. We can talk about where we came from and how little we had to eat as a family and economically we were underserved or whatever ... our comfort zone here along the US-Mexico border ... as you move into Texas ... San Antonio ... and those areas ... it's very comfortable. It's very nice to be able to do that. You move away from those areas and the comfort zone dissipates. It doesn't exist. So what do you do?
CS: You don't talk about it.
IR: You don't want to talk about it. Because the enviornment is not there.
CS: That respect ..........
IR: Respect and support it ... that would support it.
CS: It recognizes it first.
G: Okay.
CS: ....... the contribution.
G: So you don't think that by doing that you're not helping to teach the kids that those things did exist ... I mean ... are we just going to ignore it?
CS: No, no.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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IR: My ......... needs to be included.
CS: ....... needs to be recognized ...
G: Okay ... okay ... I misunderstood what you were saying. Yes. Okay.
CS: As a contribution. All of us would be starving if it were not for the farmer.
G: You bet.
CS: All of us ... Black ... White ... Italian ... Portugese ... everybody.
G: In you opinion are there any objects or some type of artifact that you feel would be essential to help us better exhibit this culture? For example ... a metate ... is that part of Mexican culture or not? Do you consider that an important item or not? In the Valley they wanted ... Why don't you have ... like the backend of a pick-up truck or something filled with migrant workers? or something like that. You know it sounded crazy at the time ... but then the more we thought about it ... it can be done ... you know.
CS: And that's part of recognizing ... making that connection with the metate .....
G: That's right.
CS: ... but also going back to the pre-Columbian civilizations of ........ America ...
G: ........Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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CS: ... .......... because what you grind on that is corn ... corn ........
G: ......... okay.
CS: And you'd be nothing without the farm worker. It would have to be that education ... what that laborer does.
G: Uh-huh.
RR: But you know I would hate to see that kind of focus ... just on the labor ...
G: Yeah ... no ... no ... ........
RR: ... because then that gives the ... that perpetuates the stereotype that we're all laborers and that that has been the only thing that we've been good at ... and that is not true.
(mixed conversation) I want to focus on the fact that we have scientist that are Mexican-American ... that have business people that are Mexican-American ... that you know ... have made tremendous contributions to the wealth and ........ of this country and just because they accumulated some capital and became wealthy that doesn't ... you know ... why should that exclude them from being recognized as ....
G: Right.
RR: ... as Mexican-Americans?
CS: But again that's the link back to pre-Columbian civilization ... civilization which was just not just one ... it was the whole distribution of labor ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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IR: Yeah ... because we are laborers ...
CS: ... those who worked in the fields but then there were those who planned ... ... there were the ........... ... there were the people who had to distribute all of this ... there were people who had to exchange ...
There were the ............... ... okay ... from .............. That word ............ comes from. They were very important traders and merchants that went to the fartherest reaches of the Aztec part of the world. It seemed that ... a world is not unilateral ... it's not one-sided ... the farmer begins it all ...
G: Uh-huh.
CS: ... and there's the distribution ... there's the economics of all it.
RR: But you know he's leading towards how to present the exhibit.
CS: Yeah ... but ...
RR: What do artifacts? ....... metate ... is the agricultural products that ........ to what? ... we know as Mexican cuisine ... which has been a major contributor to the ... what we all know as being Texan ... the spicy foods ... the chilis and salsas ... and that kind of thing. And the rich regional variety of food ... I mean you know ... down in the lower Rio Grande Valley ... I mean ... cabrito is like ... you Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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find it in every corner of the ....
(mixed conversation and laughter) ... pavement ... but see you don't see that here ... you don't find cabrito that often here.
G: You mention that in San Antonio ... no, you don't.
IR: Why I found a place in San Antonio ...
G: But this was not that common ...
RR: But see ... the thing is that the Valley sells ... I mean ... they have it ... ....... production of ......... they raise goats the most there ... but they sell all of it to Monterrey ...
IR: That's right.
RR: It goes all to Monterrey.
CS.: Um.
RR: So you know ... I mean ... that kind of thing is .......
CS: That's an important exchange ... and then the grapes ... for the wines.
RR: The wines ... the ......... in El Paso ......... El Paso to the Missions in California. The wine that was used for the consecrecation for the California Missions came from El Paso.
CS: Because this was the first Mission Valley. Okay? (mixed conversation and laughter)
G: Here we go again ... back to .............
(mixed conversation and laughter)Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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RR: That's right. You know ... I mean ... my personal thing would be to show a mosaic ... either images ... flash ... of who we are. That ... you know ...
G: Different aspects of ranching.
(mixed conversation)
RR: ... physicians ... uniforms ... nurses uniforms ... engineers ... construction workers ... construction engineers ... I mean ... the diversity ... that we can't ... I want our kids to know that they can do anything that they want.
G: Anything. They are not limited.
RR: That's right. But ... you know ... to see an image of a laborer ... laborers being taken to fields and to have that image be kept in your minds for life ...
CS: And the only one.
G: As the only one.
RR: ... yes ... to me that is unacceptable. Unacceptable.
G: Okay. But that's a very good idea about the showing of different faces ... we have a production like that at the Institute now but it's not just focused on Spanish ... it's called Places and People ... People and Places of Texas ... and it's exactly what you said ... it's a multi-screen dome in which ... we've got like 23 projectors behind it ... it just shows different places and different people ... not just Mexicanos ... but ... what you're saying is just ... limit ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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do just Mexicanos that way in that exhibit ........
CS: Uh-huh. And then maybe as sort of a structure for all of this ... you take all of the places where there are Spanish names ... San Antonio ...
G: Cities?
CS: ... .......... ... El Paso ...
G: ....... MacAllen ...
CS: ... yes ... Del Rio ... all of these places that have Spanish names ...
G: Right.
CS: ... in Texas.
G: There's been talk about trying to make this an interactive thing ... like having some kind of screen where you can push ... push a button and talk to this person ... not talk to him ... but listen to him talk. For example ... in conjuction with your ... okay ... let's say there's a picture of a scientist or a doctor or whatever ... push the button and then hear a little bit about him ... maybe like you said ... for the child to take home with him ... you know ... something that that person said ... that will stick with him and maybe it'll help him ... you know ... guide himself or maybe make a choice ............
CS: I know Juarez ... Benito Juarez is a very important person ........... came through Texas ... here in El Paso. I mean that's why we have monuments to Lincoln and Juarez ... in Ciudad Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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Juarez ... because that's historic and that's something that I don't think ..........
G: Right.
IR: In a point of language ... I think that you need to set up some kind of system ... some mechanism where there is some kind of interaction between the public and the Spanish language ... whether we go back to pre-Columbian times and move up through the Spanish ... through the ............ ... the ................. ... all of that.
(mixed conversation)
CS: ...... the language is so beautiful.
IR: And it's a really wonderful opportunity for ... for the public to learn the language ... and see ... you know ... the progression ... the development of it. It's real important.
CS: Just to listen to it.
IR: Just to listen to it.
RR: You know ... in the food category ... I went to Spain in '79 ... and I think finally ... because not only in Mexico you talk about the Mexican War between the US and Mexico from a different perspective but you also become very anti-Spaniard ... anti-Spain. And that ........... ... I mean it's just like ... ......... well, you tell people that Mexican ancestors lived in the United States ....... ... you also don't ... and they teach you not to like the Spaniards ... the ............. ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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you know ... so you have this preconceived notions ...
..: ......... (mixed conversation and laughter)
RR: ... I go to Spain you know ... and I'm watching all these people and I'm thinking ... that's who I am ... I mean ... it's like going through the motions of breakfast and ...
CS: ...............
(mixed conversation)
RR: ... and then I'm going like ... you know it never dawned on me until I went to Spain ... why we had lunch at 2 o'clock in the afternoon ... or why I was having dinner at 8 o'clock at night. (laughter) It wasn't until I was in Spain ... I say ... Ah, this is the time ... when they do it ........
G: That's right.
RR: And then the foods ... you know ........ Spanish foods ... right? ... and I said ... Gosh, this is so bland. Where is the chili? (laughter) Salsa.
CS: You order a tortilla ... you order the main course and then you say ... Well, it says tortilla here ... okay, bring me a tortilla also.
RR: And they look at you ...
CS: One tortillo ... and I think ... Gee, what skimpy people ... (mixed conversation and laughter) ...
G: A hugh pizza ...
(mixed conversation and laughter)Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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RR: But here if people were to learn the contribution of each ...
CS: Exchange.
RR: ... you know ... from language to cuisine and so forth ... you know ... and costumbres ... customs ...
G: That's another thing that we need to touch on.
RR: That's comes as a revelation ... and like to put a picture of Castillo ... the countryside of Castillo ... next to a picture of the countryside of an El Paso ... then you'd ...
CS: Uh-huh.
RR: ... then you'd ... like it dawned on me ...
..: Yes.
RR: I said ... No wonder they were not afraid. I mean this looks just like ...
G: Just like their home.
RR: Yeah ... like Castillo ... dry ... mountainous ... you know ... and I said ... No wonder ... they said ... Hey, let's go ... I mean ... it looks ......... (laughter)
G: Hey ... I'm used to this.
RR: That's right. (laughter)
G: That brings up the next question ... what traits are ... or do you believe that there are traits that bind Americanos together ... and if so ... which are they? You were talking about food ... anything else besides that? Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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(mixed conversation)
RR: Traits or skills or what? Are you talking about skills or .....
CS: One of the main things is they ... and I think this should be part of the exhibit that not enough people know of the origins of the cowboy.
G: Oh!
RR: Yes.
CS: It's from the vacqueros and that the charro is related to the vacquero but not completely because when you're talking about a charro ... it's more of a ...
G: Dressier.
CS: ... when you're talking about history you need to talk about social classes but then you also need to focus ........ and the idea that in this country social classes do not define people by negative. You can be a farmer and act as if you're inferior to a businessman ... and that I think we're still in that revolution of equity ... in respecting the work that people do ... the work that people do because not everybody ... everybody would be rich and famous .......
IR: Oh ....... yes.
(mixed conversation and laughter)
RR: It dawns on me as we talk is that Mexican culture teaches one to respect manual work.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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G: Yes.
RR: Okay. Work that you do with your hands is very important ... is not minimized ... is not seen as something that is below or beyond you ... because as an elementary grade student in Mexico you were forever asked to do ... work with your hands ... ...... a gift for your Mom on Mother's Day or a teacher or for your father or you know ... whatever ... for Christmas ... you always worked with your hands ... you were never given a kit and said ....
..: I was.
(mixed conversation and laughter)
RR: Do this ... no ... you were always told ... you are to get this materials ... piece of wood ... a piece of glass ... plate glass ... and some paint ... okay? ... and then the teacher will tell you ... Well, this is the project you're going to do. So you pick you design or whatever ... but this is how it is going to be done and then you would do it. So you were proud as a child ... I remember you were proud of the handiwork that you did ... so I mean ... it was labor from you hands. So ... you know ...
(mixed conversation)
IR: Reinforces.
CS: That the focus on critical thinking ........ as a child. If you allow choice for the child from the very beginning ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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he's going to develop and do these things. Which is very contrary to the way you teach children arts and crafts here and you give them a problem and you give them the materials and say ... Okay, you go ahead and do it. ............ they don't know where to being because they've never been given that directive to ......... or something in side of you ... it's not me ... it's you ... and that's what you've got to come up with ... however it's going to look ... that's you.
RR: That's you ... yes.
CS: And that that's respect that's so important that is missing from our education system ... I think ...
IR: But isn't that idea or concept also linked to religion? Idle hands breed ... what? ..........
(mixed conversation)
IR: Something about hands ... I've heard something about hands ... you know it's possible that ... I mean ... we're all linked in some ways ...
CS: ...... positive and productive labor ... that you must do something because if you're doing nothing it's negating ... what God gave you you've got to develop that as much as you can ... your potential ... to be ......... person.
G: Interesting.
RR: You know I live in a typical ....... neighborhood in El Paso but I cut my own yard ... I mean I do my own yard work Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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... and I've never seen it as below me (laughter) to do it ... even though when it takes .......... front lawn ...
(mixed conversation and laughter)
RR. people just look at me like ... everybody stops ... I don't know why when they see me out there ... they come out in their Mercedes Benzs or BMWs and all this stuff (laughter) Lincoln Continentals ... and they'll stop and say ... Hi, Ric ... you know ... (laughter) But I've never seen ... and it's because of that respect that I have for ...
G: Manual labor.
RR: Manual labor. ........
G: It's been proven that a lot of these so-called meaningless jobs that people make the most money ... cutting grass. I mean that's a money-making ........ Those people that started off with just 2 or 3 yards that they were cutting for people ... pretty soon they're ...... in business ... a neighbor liked the way you're doing it ... ....... cuts it for this gentleman over here ... and if he does a good job there then he can go on and pretty soon he's got the whole block. And he's got 3 or 4 people working for him and he's sitting back. ....... People find that demeaning ... no! ... there's money there! ... yes.
(mixed conversation and laughter)
CS: Well, we're back to the farmer, right?
RR: Oh, yeah.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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IR: Cultivate .........
RR: .......... the respect that Mexican culture has for manual labor. That's very important.
CS: It's considered an art because there was so much of an expression in so many areas whether it was the paint or leather or wood or plaster or architecture ... that was constantly being utilized within that society ... that is an integral part was needed that we respect it.
RR: ............
(mixed conversation and laughter)
G: I have a question ... when you're cutting grass ... do you go back and forth or you ... just where ... ?
(mixed conversation and laughter)
RR: I have a big yard ... a big ... it goes ...........
G: First question ... this is a 2-part ... first part ... do you have a riding lawnmower or do it walking behind it?
RR: No ... walking behind it.
G: You're walking behind it. When you cut it in a square ... you do a square ... which way do you go? Growing up when my dad told me to cut the grass ...... cut it ... it never dawned on me that there was a technique for cutting grass ... you know ... I was making the square and I see it getting smaller and as it got smaller it was getting heavier and for the life of me I couldn't figure out why. So he comes out and says ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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What are you doing? I'm all finished, Dad. .... job ... cutting ...... throwing into the middle where you've still got to cut. You see what I'm saying? When I was cutting ... the grass that was being cut was being thrown to uncut part of the yard ... so the smaller I made the square the heavier it got ...
(mixed conversation and laughter) ... but if you go the opposite ... you cut grass away from you ... it never gets any harder ... it gets easier ...
RR: I have a grass-catcher.
IR: I have a bagger.
RR: It doesn't make any difference but I ... it's like ... it's real different ....
CS: I have a clipper ... (makes clipping sounds)
IR: Oh, no. (laughter)
G: You must have a small yard.
CS: No ... no yard ... very tall grass. (laughter)
END OF SIDE 1, TAPE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
RR: I'm an investment banker ... (laughter) ... so I do not own a grass-cutting ... (laughter)
G: Don't get the wrong idea. Do you want your grass cut? Call me. (laughter)
CS: He invests in grass.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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G: He invests in grass. (laughter) That's could be ...
IR: Now that could be ...
G: Yes.
IR: ... ......... misconstrued ...
G: ... miscontrued ... big time ... yes.
CS: See what I mean about the diversity of meaning that you find in one little word?
G: Uh-huh.
CS: Grass. (laughter) The context ... the significance within that context ...
G: Oh, yes. (laughter)
IR: In one little word.
G: Like you said ... language.
CS: Language.
..: Right.
IR: Most definitely ... most definitely. .... to be included ....
CS: I saw this movie ... Farewell My Concubine ...
G: Uh-huh.
CS: ... I don't know if you've seen it ... but it's all in Chinese ... the text is ... for me that was the first time that I have been able to listen to Chinese for the duration of a few hours ... which was very important because all of a sudden you suddenly realized the different inflections ... are very Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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different ......... Spanish ....... languages. You have tones that go from way down ...... (makes different sounds) ...
G: Uh-huh.
CS: And when a Chinese person learns to speak English he's going to carry those inflections ......... The same way that when Spanish speakers ... native language is Spanish ... speak English they're going to carry those same inflections of Spanish into the English language. So there are those differences in ... not only vocabulary ... but also inflection ...
G: Uh-huh.
CS: Many times because we are ........... people we feel ....... and they are either ... they are pleasant for us or unpleasant.
G: Right.
CS: And this is connected. It's been researched by educators in educational psychology that this begins in the womb ... as early as 4 months .......... ... listening to ......(makes muffled noises)........ ...
G: Uh-huh.
CS: But it is in the tone of whatever that language is ... if it's English or it's Spanish ... or if it's any other language. It's the comfort zone. If you're talking ...
G: ..........
CS: ... which is why when the child comes out and he hears Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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somebody speaking ... (speaks in squeaky voice) ... like you heard ...... in the womb ... he's going to go to that person because that person represents a certain support. And that's why in ......... teachers who are role models for Mexicanos it's so important that they be able to relate because in those early years the main thing ... feeling comfortable ...
G: Uh-huh.
CS: ... nurturing. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't also be exposed to others but they need to have those role models in order for them to grow and develop.
G: ........
CS: And this is a developmental scientific fact that the way that we develop as human beings. ......... (whispers) ....... sound of language ... And it also helps us to understand each other too. Because as we are talking about different cultures we can then begin to understand ..... why a person who speaks Chinese or English or Spanish or French are going to have a certain relationship that they have with their language .......... And why vice versa these sterotypes build up ...
G: Uh-huh.
CS: ... and the way you hear the English speaker ... you think ... wow! ... and then the Chinese or any Asian ...
G: Lower.
CS: No ... much higher ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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G.: Oh.
CS: ... because of the range ... you know ... one syllable can be ....(sounds)... You remember Dr. Dolittle in the ...? you know ... the a ... ooh ...
G: Okay.
CS: But Spanish ... ah ..
G: ........
CS: (whispers) ........ and so when children are being addressed by their English-speaking dominant language teacher ... speak up ... speak up ... (whispers) ...
G: Uh-huh.
CS: ... (whispers) .... and what gets put on the child is a sense of inferiority because he's not speaking up.
G: Uh-huh.
CS: But he's just doing what he is. What he felt in the womb .......
G: Uh-huh.
CS: It is a very sensitive thing that we become of aware of in cultural awareness and deal with it ....... in Texas or the United States. Those different perspectives ... points of views.
RR: ..... music.
G: .......... music ... Do you think there's a difference? RR: Difference between ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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..: ...........
G: What kind of music are you talking about? Conjunto music? Tejano music? Mariachi music? What?
..: Ballards?
RR: Well, no ... that we emcompass all music ...
G: Uh-huh.
RR: ... even classical music.
G: Sure.
RR: ......... I don't think of his name very often but Antonio ........... was a Mexican composer ... let's see ... 18th century ... wrote a number of pieces that to a lay person, for example, would not be able to distinguish between Antonio ............'s music and Mozart's. Wonderful music and not played often enough in the United States or in the world for that matter ... I became aware of S.........'s work through a program that is produced at KKET by ... it's a doctor in Juarez who does the program ... he does it in English ... and on his own funds he has researched all this music ... he has to go to Mexico City to get recordings of Mexican composers ...
CS: Felix Cantu?
RR: No.
CS: No.
RR: Oh, no, no. It's Dr. ... I can't remember ... he's got a program on Sundays ... KKET ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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..: Uh-huh.
RR: ... and it's called the Mexican Classical Musical Hour.
G: Um.
..: Uh-huh.
RR: Okay ... and I mean it's just incredible ... I mean you listen to it and say ... ..... kind of music is not played?
G: That's interesting. When we did this same thing in Edinburg ... the gentleman suggested when we brought up the subject of music ... why not have ... like a radio ... car-radio or something like that ... or a regular radio ... and just have different tapes ... different time periods .... music ... you know ... ........... ... and then we come back into the '50s ... .......... what kind of music is going on there? And bring it up to the present.
IR: And you can correlate that with dance.
G: Uh-huh ... exactly.
IR: Real well.
G: Sure.
IR: They'll use it in graphics ... graphic shots or whatever ...
G: Uh-huh.
IR: ... correlate it together.
G: Uh-huh. Yeah.
CS: But at the same time it doesn't have a cut-off ....Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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G: No.
CS: ... ...... stop and this went on ...
G: No ... it just keeps going.
CS: It just keeps going. Because ..........
G: ....... sure .........
IR: Mambo.
RR: Like going way back ... 16 ... 17 ... 18 ... 19th century ... the Mexican-Americans ... or the Mexicans of the time ... because they were Mexican ... that lived in ............ Provincia de Tejas ... had culture ... had music ... had writings ... had poetry ... and that's never recognized in history books. The Colonial Period is basically ...
G: .........
RR: ... Spanish ... okay ... Spanish ... ...... Spain ... but like it was ... Spain is an island and it had an outpost over here and all the culture was in Spain ... see you never hear about the Mexican authors ... I mean like ........., for example ... or ... let me see ... ................ ... .............. was Mexican ... but you know was ... studied in Spain and wrote plays over there ... but he's considered a Mexican playwrite. You know ... San Juan Ynez de la Cruz ... from Mexico ... that was part of the culture that was in the Province of Tejas.
G: Uh-huh.
RR: And that's never recognized ... because it's always like Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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... again ... we were an island and the mother country had all the culture but you know the culture was here too because that came ...
G: .......
RR: ... with the priests and with the .......
CS: And that's why so many of the artisans and craftsmen ... painters ... are not known by name ... they didn't ask for this and that ... because the way they've been looked at by historians ... well, this one did this particular image lots ...... so he's the master of the ....
..: ........
CS: ... master of the San Jose ... because he did a lot of San Joses ... but names were lost because they were from here ... they were not .........
G: Okay. Well, this has been very interesting to say the least. I'll tell you what ... Cesar was not lying ... he didn't ... (laughter) ...
IR: What did he say? (laughter)
G: ... he didn't exagerate it by ......
CS: ..... a lot of diversity ...
G: Oh, my God, yes.
CS: ... and to try to pull it together from ... to find one thing that is going to put it all together it's a very difficult area .......Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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G: Yes, I'm just going to read ...
CS: ... got to put it all and it's got to be inclusive ...
G: Okay. Let me read ... let me read ...
CS: ... term we had sort of figured out here ... just in this group ... is that the Mexicano term incompasses it all.
G: Right.
CS: For the Mexicano from Texas and then that way it doesn't cut it off from anything else.
G: Okay. Let's see ... you guys listen and tell me if you think we've left anything out ... I think we've touched on ... actually everyone of these ... education ... work ... public and private sides of everyday life ... sexuality ... did we touch on that? or? ...
CS: We didn't. We didn't talk about that.
(mixed conversation)
G: We've got a few more minutes. Poverty ... we touched on that ... organizational life ... artistic expression ... we just ... religion ... social class ... within the Tejano group ... this man cuts his own grass ... you see ...
..: (laughter)
G: ... gender ...
CS: The gender ... ..... we did .....
G: Okay ... race ... discrimination ... civil rights or political empowerment ... I think we've touched everyone except Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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for gender and the sexuality.
CS: Then maybe that should come under the civil rights situation because the focus for the Chicana has been this aspect of recognizing the woman for the contribution ... because many times the Mexican society ... this is one of the negatives ... not straight-across-the-board ... just one of the negatives ... is that the way ............. ... she was not allowed to be educated ... through the educational system ... she was a woman ... and so that reflects the role of women in that society ... that they were property and that they only meant something when they got married and had children ... but the reality is from the pre-Columbian world ... the .......... shows that the woman has been nurturer and it is the feminine principle within them that has allowed them to advocate for justice ... advocate for peace.
G: Interesting. This young lady yesterday at the high school ... we asked if she had any role model ... who she admired ... and I was expecting for her to say ... you know ... some movie star or something like that ... and she said ... her mother.
CS: Beautiful.
G: And it took us for a loop ... because I wasn't expecting that. She said ... my mother ... because of the way she brought me up ... nothing was ever a problem for her ... anything was possible. And if she set her mind to do it she would do it. Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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And that's instilled in me and that's what I want to do. I mean it just caught me completely off-guard ... completely off-guard. And that's the .......
..: Uh-huh.
G: I wasn't expecting it ... it just came out of left field ... boom! ......... Okay, since we touched on most of those ... one last question ... what do you think we ought to name the exhibit? ........ Tejanos ........ what do you consider appropriate?
CS: The exhibit within the ....... .......
G: Our area ... the area we're talking about .........
IR: Reaching a consensus ...
G: It doesn't have to be a consensus ... I want your opinion.
RR: Going by looking at the other exhibits ... you have German ... you have Spanish ... although .......... ... you have Italian ...
G: Greeks ... uh-huh.
RR: Japanese ... Korean ... Chinese ... ......... ... it would not be offensive to me ........ probably be a right step on .....
G: A step in the right direction?
RR: ... right direction is to ...
G: Leave it as Mexicano?
RR: Yeah.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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IR: Mexican.
G: Mexican. You feel the same way?
IR: I think that the word Mexicano is more appropriate than the word Tejano.
G: Uh-huh.
IR: In keeping with what you're trying to do in the Institute you've got one word that is in Spanish because it reflects the Spanish-speaking community and I don't know if that's the direction that you want to take.
G: No.
IR: See what I'm saying? In other words the other exhibits are called Chinese ... it's not by their own name. German ... it's not German in German ... you know what I mean ...
G: Uh-huh.
RR: Dutch.
IR: Right. So why would we go with Mexicano? If it's ....
CS: And not Mexican you mean?
IR: ... and not Mexican?
RR: I would.
IR: And it might be splitting hairs at this point but I'm saying ... I'm comfortable with Mexicano I don't know if that's what the directiion is what the Institute wants to take in terms of being pretty much ...
..: .....Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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RR: ...... Mexican or ........
G: As opposed to Tejano ... you'd rather use ...
IR: I don't like Tejano.
RR: I would like Mexican.
G: You would like Mexican?
CS: Well, I think you're correct in that sense because ... okay ... going back to what I said ... that since all of the other exhibits ...
G: Are going to stay the same.
CS: ... are English and we're talking about Texas identity ... Texan cultures ... then what we're talking about is the Mexican culture ......... and all of those other terms are English ...
G: In English.
IR: ... and that's also because a lot of the Chicano write in English.
..: ........
CS: So Mexican is going to be all-emcompassing and I hope that within the exhibit you build in all of this diversity.
G: Oh, yes. Right.
IR: Yeah.
CS: That there are the Mexicanos ... that there are other nationals that are part of this ...
G: Sure ... yes.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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CS: There are those people who have their little ... what is it? ... their resident card ... but they are from Mexico.
G: Yes. We have an area that's in the exhibit floor ... we call it the music room ... and it's a room about this big ... and it's got cases built into the wall with ...... to keep kids from touching stuff ... we've got musical instruments from all over ... okay ... and when you're walking up to it ... off the grid in the ceiling we've got rods about that long with a board on it and it's painted and it's got the word music ... but it's written in different languages ... and people make the connection like that. They walk into it and they start ... oh, I'll bet you that means music. You know ... but it's a different language. The thought was brought up in what you were saying ... if we do name it Mexicano ... Mexican ... whatever ... the thought was brought up that ... or the idea ... to put all these other names.
CS: Yes. Yes.
IR: Yes.
CS: It is very important to ...
G: Because that part of it.
CS: ... to this point Chicano has not been a part of the institutionalized education ... especially from the University of Texas ... with all Mexican-Americans. And that's excluding a point of view that's very important ...... And so if you Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso
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connect it to Mexican ... whatcha got? ... with even Hispanic ... with Mexican-American ... with all the other diversity ... ...... Tejano ... Hispano ... all of that is part of that.
G: Uh-huh. Okay.
CS: I think it's good.
G: Okay.
..: Um.
G: Well, I want to thank you ... this has been very enlightening. Um. Very much ... (laughter)
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
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Description
| Title | Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, El Paso, Texas, Part 3, May 21, 1994 |
| Interviewee |
Rubio, Irma Soriano, Catherine Rios, Ricardo |
| Interviewer | Galvan, Lawrence |
| Description | Transcripts of community meetings conducted by the Institute of Texan Cultures as part of the Tejano Community Advisory Group. |
| Date-Original | 1994-05-21 |
| Subject |
Mexican Americans--Texas--Biography. Mexican Americans--Texas--Ethnic identity. |
| Collection | University of Texas at San Antonio Institute of Texan Cultures Curator of Exhibits Records |
| Local Subject |
Activism/Activists Education/Educators Mexican Americans Texas History |
| Publisher | University of Texas at San Antonio |
| Type | text |
| Format | |
| Digitization Specifications | 24 bit, 200 dpi |
| Source | Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, El Paso, Texas, Part 3, May 21, 1994: University of Texas at San Antonio Institute of Texan Cultures Curator of Exhibits Records |
| Language | eng |
| Finding Aid | http://www.lib.utexas.edu/taro/utsa/00258/utsa-00258.html |
| Rights | http://lib.utsa.edu/SpecialCollections/services_copyright.html |
| Full Text | THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso INTERVIEW WITH: Irma Rubio, Catherine Soriano, Ricardo Rios DATE: 21 May 1994 PLACE: University of Texas at El Paso, Texas INTERVIEWER: Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. G: This is Lawrence O. Galvan Jr., El Paso, Texas, 21 May 1994, Community Advisory Meeting at UTEP. This is tape 1, side 1, session 1. rr: Do I sign this or ....? G: If you don't mind, sir, yes, in case we do use some of your comments or anything like that. It's just a ... I think it's just a release form. Before we start I'd just like to make you ... if you'll give me you name so we can recognize the tape when we edit it. With me at the table we have ... Rubio: Irma Rubio from UTEP. CS: Catherine ......... Soriana from the El Paso Community College. RR: Ricardo Rios ... from everywhere. (laughter) LG: Good. Okay. Judging from the responses we were getting out there ... it seems like it's a ... it's not that different ... that people don't know what they want to be called. Let me start by asking you ... what would you call yourselves? RR: Well, you know, it's kind of funny ... for me I went through a transformation in that ... just like everybody else ... I'm originally from Mexico ... I was born and raised in Juarez ... LG: Okay. RR: ... and when I was 18 I joined the US Air Force. And I remember people asking me ... you know ... what I was? ... what are you? And I would say ... Well, I'm Mexican. And the repsonse was ... like ... Well, that's what I thought you were, but where I come from that's kind of a bad thing to call people. And ... you know ... I mean I was flabbergasted. LG: Yeah. RR: Surprised and shocked. And I said ... Well, not me ... I said ... I'm very proud being Mexican. LG: May I ask you what year was this? RR: This was ... LG: .......... RR: 1959. LG: '59 ... '60. Okay. RR: And so I learned ... that was my first interaction with other Mexican-Americans .... ... outside of my own immediate family ... which live in El Paso ... on my mother's side. So it was a revalation ... because I could not understand why anyone would not be proud of being called "Mexican." LG: A Mexican ... yeah. RR: And ... well, the thing is that nowadays ... I mean I tell people ... if you want to call me Hispanic, fine ... if you want to call me Chicano, that's fine ... if you want to call me Mexican-American, that's fine ... you want to call me Mexican, that's fine. Because I'm all of those ... plus ... (laughter) 3 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) ... so to me the label doesn't mean anything. LG: Okay. RR: As long as the contribution and that the cultural identity is made known ... LG: Known. Okay. RR: ... and respected. I mean ... that's what's important. LG: Alright. RR: ........ LG: Okay. CS: Well ... I'm a historian. From early on I was very interested in history because my father was ... he was a Mexican National all his life. And he knew he was Mexican ... he told us he was Mexican and he told us we had to learn from where we came. LG: You came. CS: Because my mother was also Mexican but she came to the United States at the age of 9 years old and became a naturalized citizen. LG: Okay. CS: So this was always at the forefront of who we were. But more important than this was our language ... was a cultural connection with our family in Mexico. The importance of learning English and Spanish at the same time. The importance of being Catholic. Because I was raised in the Catholic 4 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) environnment ... went to a parochial school taught by nuns ... went to a high school taught by nuns ... where the focus really for that ... to be Catholic means to be world-wide aware of people as people and the contributions that they gave to the whole of society. I was always given a certain positive aspect of being bilingual ... bicultural. And not only just 2 languages but the emphasis to learn more languages. And so early on I wanted to make that my career. And so I started to learn French and Italian and then went into ... the whole idea of education was seen as very positive within my background. In terms of history I think this is part of the reason that there's so much confusion perhaps ... because as we get more access to education we learn more about what really happened. Or at least from many perspectives rather than from one perspective. As Ric ... I also encompass many of these terms ... Latina ... but as I teach my students I could also claim I am a ......... ... I am Chinese ... I am French ... I am the world ... because of the certain approaches that one has. And say ... as an art historian ... I have studied the history and culture of so many peoples from all over the world. And I feel that that is my right and my privilege because I am a human being ... this is the history of mankind. And the more versed I am in the things that have happened ... the better I am ... LG: You are ... yes.5 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) CS: ... in my specific geography and location. But going back then in terms of ... a cultural term that I identify with is Chicano. Because Chicano encompasses all ... it has that inclusivity. It brings in all of the terms ... all the races ... all the languages ... and more and more as we look into the 21st century ... for me that's what it's talking about ... diversity. I don't want to monopolize ... but that's ... LG: ....... that's true ... that's what we're looking for. How about you? IR: I think that one ... probably one of the most difficult questions to have to answer as you have found out. We're all called different things ... LG: Exactly. IR: ... and who we are has a lot to do with where we started. You came from Juarez ... you grew up here ... I come from rural Texas. LG: Okay. IR: I was not born or raised here but I came here as a young woman ... freshman student at UTEP. LG: What do you mean by rural? IR: I was born and raised in a rural community ... Fort Stockton, Texas, who was not part of the mainstream of borderland America ... borderland Texas. So I bring a very different perspective.6 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) LG: Very much. IR: So I grew up in a very segregated community ... we were in fact a minority ... being Spanish speaking ... so I grew up as a Mexican. Because that's what we were referred to ... we were the Spanish speaking community in that area and we were referred to as Mexicans ... so that's what I grew up thinking I was. Being Mexican was really a counterpart to being Spanish speaking as a group. It had nothing to do with being from Mexico. Because I am a 3rd generation Texan as I'd learned as ... you know ... you grow older and you ask questions ... Well, where did you come from? Because as a young child you're really not concerned about where you come from ... LG: Exactly. IR: ... because of ... the support is so small ... your family is really the extent of your support ... you don't look elsewhere. But as you grow older I think we begin to explore all of these different areas. When I came here I went through culture shock. I thought ... so many of them look just like me ... my goodness sakes. And all of the positions as a young woman going through high school we were excluded from a lot of different kinds of situations ... from different kinds of groupings and so when I came here to see people in business ... in education here at the University ... there were so many students that were sitting right along with me in English 3101 7 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) ... to me it was mind boggling. To hear people express themselves so well ... I ... I went through a phase a trying to absorb as much as possible ... and certainly the pride issue came into play. So I represent a very different element here in El Paso. To me this is a wonderful community to live in ... I've learned a lot about the community itself ... but more importantly about me ... being able to say who I really am and when I say Mexican ... Mexican-American ... every to be Chicana ... to me it's not derogatory ... it's all emcompassing. It's very difficult ... it's like saying ... you are either this or that ... and you have to chose. I don't like chosing those kinds of situations ... in those kinds of situations. I'd rather say ... I'm all of those things. Some days I'm this ... some days I'm that ... it depends on the group. LG: Exactly. IR: And so I'm ... being from or not being from this area ... I see things very differently. There are times again that I feel that being Mexican-American is going to get the word across a lot better than saying I'm Chicano ... because a lot of times ... even in this community ... people identify themselves as Chicano or Chicana ... and immediately you start to see the different ... LG: Various. IR: ... looks in people's eyes. So you have to be very careful. 8 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) And I think coming from the University as well ... we have to recognize that there are ... there is that diversity ... and you have to pretty much play with those terms a lot and if people feel that they don't want to be called that ... they don't want to be associated with that term ... then we have to show that respect ... (speaks in Spanish) ............. ... LG: ......... that's right. IR: And I think it's very difficult for people to ... I think it becomes very devisive when we are asked ... identify yourself. It's very, very difficult. CS: Or it's even worse when you are told ... IR: Exactly what you are ... LG: .......... RR: .......... CS: I think that's the big thing ... resistance to the term Hispanic .... IR: Right ... right. CS: ... because it was the term that was imposed upon all Spanish speakers ... unilaterally. RR: You know ... I would not object to the term Tejano ... if that is used to describe a Texan that has either Mexican ... LG: Spanish. RR: ... roots or Mexican-American ...9 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) IR: Uh-huh. RR: ... or Spanish .. I mean ... LG: Indigenous. RR: ... that's ... if that's the intent to .......... a word that can encompass all that ... that's fine. LG: I noticed when we were in the room there ... the point was brought up ... that Tejano represents everybody ... be you Chinese ... what have you ... IR: Uh-huh. LG: ... and what we're trying to do is make ... Phyllis was trying to explain ... the word Tejano ... is exactly what you just said ... we want it to just deal with the Mexicano ... the Indian ... the Spaniard ... because that's what we're combining ... the Spanish area at the Institute with the Mexican-American section ... but I think you pointed it out ... are the other ones going to stay the same? If you really stop and think about it you can't ... in doing what we want to do with this one ... we're encompassing all the rest of them. .... CS: But then they're all Tejanos. LG: Yes, ma'am. In that respect they are. CS: But then that means you have to change all the other exhibits. LG: Exactly. So maybe we have to change the titles.10 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) CS: ........ just historical perspective here ... the Mexicano is the one that encompasses all things. LG: Okay. CS: Mexican-American ... Chicano ... Tejano ... LG: Spaniards ... Indians. CS: Americanos ... Spanish ... Indian ... because Mexicano is all of that. And I think that's the root for the Chicanos ... to take it from that. LG: Uh-huh. CS: The only thing was that ... when this movement began it was that they were not Mexican nationals ... because ... always the term is associated with the Country ... the national identity ... Mexico. Well, Chicanos look to Mexico ... no ... Mexico is not going to claim them ... Mexico is not going to defend them and support them ... so who are we? Right? Well, we're Mexicanos ... but we're here ... so what do we call ourselves? ... from the root of that ... Mexicanos. But Mexicano in Texas is ... what we're talking about now is not New Spain? LG: No. CS: The term Tejano was used in New Spain. The same way in New Mexico it was Hispano ... but there in New Mexico there are also a long list of terms from ... even New Spain ... from the time of New Spain ... people were calling themselves different things. So as we look at the perspective of our 11 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) reality right now ... we are Texas ... the state in the Union of the United States of America. LG: Right. CS: And we're looking for the Texas identity. Not the Tejano. LG: Not the Tejano. ..: ....... LG: Do you feel ....... ..: ........... CS: And that the name within Texas is the ... is the Texas-Mexicano. LG: Okay. Do you think that we ought to think maybe using a term ... another title? CS: Tejano also would seriously go against the whole Chicano ....... LG: What we're trying to do here. CS: Because Chicano philosophy says ... Our ........ in the history of the Southwest and that's the root of the Aztec people in terms of their wandering ............ And that would really hit hard against the Chicano philosophy. LG: Okay. IR: I'd like to raise a question, ........ , the names of the other exhibits? In other words ... I think we can pretty much reach a consensus here that when you say the word Tejanos ... you mean everybody in Texas.12 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) LG: Everybody. IR: So now the idea is to move away from that and look at the different exhibits ... what do you call the other exhibits? Chinese ... LG: Yes. Uh-huh. IR: ... I saw something Chinese and so ... LG: There's .... RR: Scotish ... Swedish ... Norwegians. LG: ... it encompasses all the 26 ethnic cultures that made up Texas as it was ... you know ... back in '68 when the Institute was started ... we got the Chinese area ... we have Scotish ... German ... Belgium ... French ... let's see ... Indian ... Anglo ... Afro ... we went through that ... first it was Negro ... and then they had the name changed and now it's Afro-American. Well ... I agree with you ... that Tejano does encompass everybody and what you're saying is ... we're just dealing the Mexicano ... (mixed conversation) CS: Putting myself in the perspective of the Polish and the African-American and the Japanese ... all of those others ... to say Tejano for all of them ... LG: Uh-huh. CS: ... is in a way going against them because it's taking the language ... Spanish ... and imposing it upon all of them.13 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) LG: Uh-huh. CS: And they might be offended by that. LG: I hadn't thought about that. CS: Whereas again ... Texas ... English ... that's what we communicate in ... yes with many accents ... yes with a lot of difference of ... let's say ... understanding of what we're talking about but it is the structure of the English language that we're dealing with. It doesn't negate the Spanish ... LG: Uh-huh. CS: ... as part of the Mexicano ... Chicano ... underneath that ... but ... Tejano underneath that ... the Hispano underneath that. The Spanish speaker completely under that. But when you take the Chinese and then you impose upon them ... tell them ...... ... not all that ........ LG: Yeah. Okay. IR: 'Cause that's a .... CS: ....... Texans. They are Texans today ... right now. IR: 'Cause that's a Spanish word ... Tejano is a Spanish word. CS: Spanish word ... from New Spain. IR: Right. CS: And it itself does not give the whole identity because Tejano itself was negating the whole indigenous background. It was alway Spanish ... Colonial. LG: Uh-huh.14 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) IR: ...... CS: So Tejano ... to give a Pole that ... to give an Anglo ... (mixed conversation) (laughter) (mixed conversation) LG: ...... CS: What we're talking about is trying to find some commonality ... the commonality for all in this country is that we believe in the Constitution ... that political system that gives us that freedom of expression. Now yes, the language that most of us speak is English ... but that doesn't mean that you have to exclude your native language or the language that you learned ... means that we have to come to a recognition of ........ ....... bilingual reality here ... at least a bilingual reality. LG: Sure. RR: Am I hearing you right? Are you saying it should be Mexicano? or Mexican? ....... CS: In terms of the exhibit? RR: Right. CS: In terms of the exhibit ... yes ... Mexicano. Within all of the diversity of the ....... Chicano ... American ... Latino ... IR: Hispanic. CS: ... Hispano. Because to draw the line right here ... ........ Spanish speakers of the Americas ......... ........ LG: Yeah.15 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) CS: ... or California ... because back and forth there are families that go back and forth ... Colorado ... Arizona ... even Miami ... LG: Sure. CS: To define we have to define in history ... then we have to define with respect to cultural background meaning that which you were given ... that space in which you were born ... that which nutured you ... your parents have never nutured you ... but they gave you ... and how you patterned yourself after them ... not to put that down as in Texas ... because that's the other thing that you really talk about ... Tejano identity ... the politics have got to come into that. And there's the Chicano ... the recognition that this Tejano has been discriminated against. LG: Right. CS: Because that's the reason that you have all of the manifestations ........ ... that's historically what's there. If you leave it out you're only giving a certain percent. RR: I agree with that. I think if the exhibit is called Mexican ... you know ... that would cover everybody. Because ....... ... in terms of cultural influence Mexico has been a major ... major player in the ......... state of Texas ... how this state has evolved. LG: Uh-huh.16 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) RR: I mean it's becoming more Mexican ... rather than less ... LG: Right. RR: ... I mean ... it's the culture ... I mean ... when you go to Dallas ... you're in Dallas ... becoming more Mexican. LG: Uh-huh. RR: When I go to a convention in a Dallas hotel and what do they serve for lunch? Mexican food. (laughter) (mixed conversation) No ... I mean they served Mexican food ... I mean they had fajitas and all that stuff you know ... I said ... Gee whiz. But that's ... and I'll bet that is not only San Antonio that serves Mexican food ... and El Paso serves Mexican food ... but Dallas and Houston ... you go to Lubbock ... IR: And even Lubbock ... I was fixing to say even Lubbock. (laughter) RR: That's right. You go to Lubbock and they do the same thing. CS: Yeah ... it's just Tejano food. RR: It's a major cultural interest. ..: ........... CS: Well, you look at a culture ... it's what ties you together in terms of language and cuisine and customs and ... IR: Religion. CS: ... religion ... beliefs ... all of those things. And 17 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) if you just say Tejano ... it's ... you know ... LG: ........ Okay. CS: ... it's this great separation. LG: ...... Okay. IR: From all this other. It's ... I'm sorry ... it sounds like an effort to try and Mexicanize a term or a heading for this exhibit and by translating it to Tejano maybe the thinking was that it'll be all encompassing but it really isn't ... LG: ..... Okay. IR: ... because you pretty much cubby-holed yourself into just one area. LG: Okay. IR: And I would disagree with the term Tejano. LG: So you might recommend that we change the title ... go with a different title. IR: Uh-huh. LG: What you were saying earlier ... if you were to go back home ... IR: Uh-huh. LG: ........ IR: Uh-huh. LG: Is there much change there? as opposed to what? IR: Dramatic change. The demographics show now that it is ... the population has split. Now it's predominately Hispanic 18 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) ... Mexican-American ... or whatever ... because of the immigration. CS: Uh-huh. IR: The whole city ... or town I should say ... has changed dramatically. The culture has changed dramatically too. (mixed conversation> CS: That's what happens with cultures. I'd like to offer just another historical perspective that is sort of an undercurrent to all of this. I have a great respect for the history of Texas following the Mexican .......... simply because of what from their perspective ... from their viewpoint of what they ......... people to go out and ...... harsh land ... LG: Land. CS: ... to create their own Texas as they saw it. Albeit all of these other things that went on ... but nevertheless ... from their perspective ... what they created also was this aura in the United States because of the breadth of the land ... because of the breadth of the money also ... because the capitol then became the center with a few people ... was this sense that Texas and also because it's the only state in the Union that ...... was a Republic of Texas ... this is part of its identity ... to try to retain its self as something big ... LG: Big. CS: ... as autonomous as not having any links with anyone else. 19 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) To me the undercurrent of this wanting the Mexicano diversity within Texas to comply with the Tejano ... that's what it means ... it's once again ............... ... it's like .......... Now, we can be proud of being from El Paso, Texas, from wherever you are ... because that's what gave you your birth ... what nourished you in the very first place ... and I think that's very important wherever you are ... but we also have to see it in perspective ... that there is an awful lot of that overplayed in the state of Texas. LG: Uh-huh. CS: And it's growing in that ... because the population in Texas is bigger. I mean ... it just beat New York. LG: Uh-huh. CS: And it's first and those are votes ... those are votes. LG: We had the ... yesterday afternoon we met with some high school kids from Bowie High School and there was very ... to me ... you know ... I was really taken aback ... because these kids ... from what I understand from their teacher, Oscar Lozano, he was in one of the other sessions ... I believe he said that's the only high school here in El Paso that's teaching Chicano studies and just walking into the room you see all these banners and posters and things and all ... you sense it ... that there's a sense of pride here that ... where in San Antonio is not. You go and see like maybe a Spanish class ... I mean that's 20 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) as Chicano as you're going to get ... you don't have this Chicano studies as such as you have here ... and in talking to these kids their outlook is completely different than ..... Mexicanos in San Antonio are. And Cesar told me when we first came up here a couple of months ago to try and set this conference up ... he said ... You need to remember one thing ... this is not San Antonio ... people here in El Paso ... they're tripping over themselves to get out and make themselves heard. In San Antonio you just ........ but here's it's different. And one of the young ladies that was in the group was from Juarez ... she now lives here in El Paso ... but I asked her a question of being educated partly in Juarez and then coming over here for the last 4 years ... she's a senior now ... what the differences were in education ... because you come ... in Texas 7th grade Texas history ... right? ... so they teach it to you ...... the Texans or whoever wrote the books ... right ... now you were educated in Juarez ... how did they teach this? I mean ... did they tell you ... the Texans beat us out of this land ... or what? ... Yeah, that's what they teach us. But if you stop and think whatever country you're in and whatever state you're in ... they're going to print it the way they want you to learn it. And I was very surprised ... because I had never heard that from a person that had been educated in both places. And I heard it ... it just came out like that and say 21 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) ...... that's a completely new approach ... for me ... I had never ... CS: Well, that's a tremendous ........ education. RR: That's true because .... CS: From different perspectives. And the ideal of this country that has not yet been fulfilled ... which is to offer that diversity ... because what diversity builds in young people is this self-esteem and pride in order to contribute to the greater society ... to recognize their part in it but also that they are part of larger ........ And when you have been denied this as has been the historical reality in Texas ... what happens is you get people who are ...... ... subservient to those big powers and then that means that we're still in the Colonial reality. Colonial reality here in the United States of America. Why? Because we're blocked by the educational system that says ... this is Texas history ... you've got to learn it this way ... this is the way it is ... and there's no other way to see it. RR: You know that may be true in elementary grades and maybe in high school here ... I haven't ... I should catch up on for myself go in ..... class that teaches Texas history ... or a relation between Mexico and the United States ... because I learned Mexican history in Mexico ... CS: Uh-huh. 22 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) RR: ... and I took a course ... on purpose ... here at this University ... just to learn how it was being taught ... CS: Uh-huh. RR: ... and to my amazement the professor that I had was Dr. Timons ... taught Mexican history from the Mexican view point. CS: Well, that's because it's Dr. Timons ....... (mixed conversation) CS: He's also is looking at it from the Mexican perspective. RR: Right. CS: And you're talking about higher education ... RR: Right. CS: ... and certainly if universities and colleges can't offer that to students ... but the things that needs to begin is with children. RR: Right. Yeah, to instill that pride. You know ... because ... CS: The critical thinking can possibly .... RR: ... you know that's one thing that I experienced with ... in the service ... that ... you know I could not understand this reluctance of calling somebody Mexican. And I said ... Well, I'm proud. And then it dawned on me that a lot of my fellow Americans of Mexican ancestory cannot know their own culture. LG: Uh-huh.23 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) RR: Okay. Whether ... well ... I would have to blame ... fault the educational system in this country ... particularly Texas ... does not go beyond and teach the kids their own history. So I think Bowie effort is ... LG: Oh, man, that's .... CS: Yes, and it's growing because the high school in Santa Elizario has a strong ...... group ... there's a young ........ group. There's a young woman that I met here at Jefferson that is also beginning a ......... group. LG: Uh-huh. CS: The ....... group ...... LG: Yes. CS: ... is focusing. At the Community College our ........ group has lobbied for a Chicano study's option in social sciences. And for the first time I'm going to put it in ... LG: That's good. Um. CS: ... this next fall. Which will mean then that students can take or overall within the .......... arts degree or as a preparation for coming here and continuing in Chicano studies or a double major in something else. The important thing is it gives them some options for going into this work world that is not ....... the reality (laughter) and when you have a Chicano who can't speak Spanish nor English ... LG: He's in trouble.24 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) CS: ... you know ... how's he going to get a job? LG: Well ...... RR: You know ... in my experience working with different organizations what I have learned ... as in the business community particularly ... in El Paso ... is that a lot of the role models that were ... that are of Mexican origin have been totally ... totally forgotten even in El Paso. IR: Uh-huh. RR: My favorite subject is a man by the name of Felix Martinez. If you look at even the history of El Paso that's written by ... somebody like Leon Metz ... or .............. END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES. SIDE 2. RR: ... you'll find either no reference to Felix Martinez or a very minimum one-line sentence on Felix Martinez. Now this man died in El Paso in 1916, he was the most prominent ... the most prominent Hispanic in the United States when he died. He lived in El Paso from about 1898 to 1916. He was the only Hispanic on the first board of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas when it was created. He was the chairman of the El Paso - Juarez User's Association. He controlled the water. He pushed the U.S Corps of Engineers to build Elephant Butte Dam when it was built. LG: Um.25 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) RR: He selected the site. The site had been originally proposed right here by .......... ... right here by the University. But that could have ... would have flooded all of the ......... Valley and there would have been no Los Cruces and there would have been no ........... in New Mexico ... because it would have been under water. So they ... he worked on another site and that's where ... you know ... at Elephant Butte Dam was built near Truth or Consequences ... because of Felix Martinez. LG: You said there's no mention .... ? RR: He was ... he owned land ... he built ......... Central Park downtown El Paso ... he built The White House Building ... he built the ... it was a building where Newberry's Stores ... .......... Newberry's was located ... he was one of 6 investors that put in money to build the El Paso del Norte Hotel and his company built it. Yet you find very little reference on Felix Martinez in El Paso. There is no street named after him ... there is no school named after him. What else did he do? He was an ambassador for the United States. I've seen letters addressed to him and signed personally by President Wilson. LG: Um. RR: Willimas Jenning Bryan, Secretary of State, he was one of 3 ambassadors to the U.S. - Panama Exposition in San 26 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) Francisco. And he was sent on a tour of South America. That was one of his last ... ..... last official. And there's letters ... there's documentation ... there's a wealth of material. I have seen 7 scrapbooks of material on the man. Yet, you talk to the historians locally ... and they will tell you ... Well, there's no material on him ... on this man. Well ... I mean ... to me ... there was a serious attempt to ... back then ... because of the politics of the day ... to totally forget ........ LG: ...... ignore ....... IR: And I think you're raising a very good point. That doesn't only happen here in El Paso ... it happens in the Fort Stocktons ... the Larados ... the Brownsvilles ... it happening all over. And many ... maybe one of the missions for the Institute is to really dig into history and see what's available. But in Fort Stockton it was pretty much the community was run and owned by Spanish surname people. You don't see ... you didn't see that at the turn of the century and certainly after the turn of the century. What happened? CS: McAllen is much like that also. IR: That's what we want to know. And I think that ....... (mixed conversation) LG: That's right. Because we went to ... we had one of these committe meetings in Edinburg ... in the Valley ... CS: Oh, yes.27 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) LG: Okay ... and to hear you guys ... trying to remember what I got from the people down there ... I was fortunate to have in my group the first Hispanic mayor of Edinburg ... ........ Rameriz ... and we were talking and he just ... one of the other gentlemen in my group said ... If you want to interview anybody this is the guy you need to get on tape because he's got a lot of information. And he said he was the first Hispanic mayor of Edinburg. So I'm thinking ... No, the first Hispanic mayor was Cisneros in San Antonio. You know. And this .... (mixed conversation) RR: Ray M........... LG: And this guy tells me he was ......... ... (mixed conversation) I said ... Wait a minute ... everybody's got one. RR: No ... no. CS: No ... what Ric raised was a very important point ... world-wide. And that is the shift from looking at things happening only in the main-stream ... that which is controlled by the powers-that-be. And that's what is history. Too ... what we have today which that multi-cultural perspective. Because Ric is a businessman he found this person that interesting and kept looking ... LG: Kept looking ..... CS: ... but if he hadn't developed ... first of all ... with 28 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) that idea that there are different perspectives because of his education and because in some way he was raised ........ you've got to think critically ... don't take everything you hear for truth. LG: Right. Yes. CS: It's only a perspective. LG: It's like one lady said ... what they want you to know. CS: There are no real authorities. There are no real authorities. And yet what we're getting from main-stream education is the big cultural centers ... New York ... Washington ... Los Angeles ... Chicago ... anything comes out of there in terms of the art historian in me ... this is constantly ....... ... if it doesn't come through those galleries it just isn't good ... right? And so as I'm doing my research here in Spanish Renaissance even ... the Renaissance Period being ........ in terms of Western World ... Spain was left out ... I said ... ........ something's happening ......... ... went into Spain ... lots of books in Spanish ... but not other people who .......... in terms of the way the world went ... at one point ........... that Spain cast upon the world ... you just shut up! ... Spain didn't exist anymore. LG: Didn't exist. CS: And the realities ... kept on ... there were people there ... there were people in .......... ... in .......... ... in 29 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) Barcelona ... continuing that exploration because they were critical thinkers. Continuing to write ... continuing to be focused for the world ... you know ... traveling ... ................ LG: There it is. CS: There it is. Therefore in education ... in terms of all the curriculum ... more cultural awareness has to be infused into politics ... into history ... into medicine ... into even botany ... right? LG: Uh. CS: All of these so that those people who working ...... can bring in their cultural perspective ... it's not just a question of learning all the major events of the Mexican Revolution ... but rather ... all of those little things that are hidden ... when you look at something you can make the connection ... make the connection and impart it then to world literature ... through history ... the whole ... LG: The whole thing. CS: ... compendium of the knowledge of the history of ideas. You know ... that's wonderful ... I mean ... you've got the material for a book ... and why can't you write the book? You know ... if you have the documentation and you do historical ...... and you present it in such way to the whole research world ... why wouldn't it have authority?30 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) LG: They don't have any choice but to accept it. ....... CS: Why wouldn't it have a value? Just because you're not a historian you're a businessman? The language of research and investigation is that you have documents and that you can .......... There is a body of information and these are my conclusions based upon it X Y Z .......... LG: Uh-huh. CS: That's a universal language. ........ all of us accept to a certain extent. Scientific method can be also interpreted many ways ... RR: See ... I take issue with the ... and I have seen the exhibit but ... and this book that I got there was .... (mixed conversation) ... pictures that come from the Institute ... LG: Uh-huh. RR: ... okay. And those pictures are usually of Mexican laborers ... LG: Uh-huh. RR: ... either farmers or workers doing something else ... but it's always that image ... LG: Stereo-types ..... RR: ... that's all ... that that's all we know what to do. So there's a great body of work that needs to be done ... we had bankers ...31 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) LG: Sure. RR: ... Felix Martinez was one of them ... absolutely. He was a capitalist ... he was an entrepreneur. Wonderful story. Yes ... and that story could make a movie. I mean it was great. Totally forgotten. Merchants ... you have bankers like Tony Sanchez and ......... from Laredo ... LG: Uh-huh. RR: They created ... I mean ... he created a financial empire out of originally being lucky enough to hit a gas well ... but you know ... he was smart enough to recognize that that particular gas well would bring him other wealth. And he created ... he created ... at the time of his death ... about 3 years ago ... he owned the biggest minority-owned bank in the entire country ... with over 2 1/2 billion dollars in assets. LG: Um. RR: ........... there are only 2 main banks in Lerado ... one of those banks was his. People don't know his story ... (mixed conversation) ... I'd like to see ... I'd like to see pictures of people that were pharmacists ... I mean ... there's a family here ... the Arredondo family ... that my wife happens to be related to ... all the Arredondos became pharmacists and they established a chain of pharmacies here in El Paso ... you don't hear that at all ... I mean ... you know ... those are professional people.32 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) CS: Um. In El Paso especially there's a silent history of so many people. In all of the professions ... the medical profession ... the ....... State Association of Hispanic Doctors ... is that what it is called? RR: Right ... right. CS: And it hasn't been researched. And this is what we're talking about ... Identity. LG: Do you feel .... CS: We have to respect it in its full, total human ... humaness. And the development has occurred on all levels. LG: What do you attribute the fact that nobody's researched this? Is this lack of interest? Or just .... I don't know ... why? CS: Well, the people who have been writing have focused on labor because that's where the greatest injustices have been. That's why the Chicano movement pivotted around the United Farm Workers ... because of the conditions that they were being ... the way in which they were been treated ... but by the same token this could be extended ... rather ... it's just that there aren't enough people there to be talking about these issues because when ... go back to education ... if people can't learn about Spanish ... the history of how the Spanish language came to be here in the Americas and all of its implications ... then how are they going to get involved in valuing what the Spanish 33 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) people does in this country? LG: Um. Go ahead Irma. IR: My comment to that is I think that one of the reasons is that for a long time our group ... if you will ... as maybe you can compare us to any other ... some of the other ethnic groups ... is that it wasn't financially a benefit to do that. Now the United States is coming full circle ... if you will. And now ... pretty much because of the demographics that are involved at this point ... we are having to respond to that diversity. And now it's becoming very, very beneficial to the United States to start to get involved in that ballgame and that is to address the different issues of diversity. Because it means money. CS: ........ IR: In every area and businesses across the country now ... look at the marketing strategies that are being used the country ... if not Texas. We know for a fact that many of the commercials that are aired here in El Paso that are done for McDonald's are not aired in the Midland-Odessa area. Why? There's a reason for that. They don't see the Midland-Odessa area as really in a position to be ... financially speaking ... they are still not ... the Hispanic community in the Midland-Odessa area still is not a viable community. CS: Consummer.34 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) IR: Comsummer ... at this point. LG: Very interesting ... very interesting. Yeah. IR: And they're not really seeing things the way the really are in Midland-Odessa. To them it's not an issue right now. But in the El Paso community we know ... Ric would ... probably is in a much better position to address this issue of economics. We have to respond to the Spanish speaking community. RR: Absolutely. Buying power. IR: You've gotta do it ... you've gotta do it. RR: Even Mexico has recognized that ... as a country ... because for a long, long time ... until that program for the Mexican Communities Overseas or whatever they call it ... you know ... the one Salinas ...... established ... CS: Yes, uh-huh. RR: ... okay ... up until then they refused to recognize ... IR: Mexicans outside. RR: ... Mexicans outside their own country. And there was no assistance ... there was no help whatsoever. Now ... but see ... that came about in the recognition that the only community that could really have ... could have cared ... not pass ... was the Mexican-American community in the United States. Because ... at least on paper ... the people that are going to be most affected by that are the laborers that are of Mexican origin. Because they hold positions with lower 35 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) wages. And since that is labor intensive and that shift is going to occur into Mexico. See the Mexican-American community have the most to lose so the Mexican government decided ... Hey, we'd better do something to get them on our side. So they started this program ...... Well, we're Mexican and you're Mexican origin ... we're going to help you ... and so forth. CS: And it was a complete reversal because ... RR: That's right. CS: ... before any Mexican who did not live in Mexico was a traitor. RR: Right. LG: Um. RR: Right. CS: And so don't come to us .... (mixed conversation) ... IR: That's has existed historically. CS: Yes, historically. IR: And you see it today ... crossing the border there's that mind set that if you left Mexico you're a traitor ... you left the mother country ... to ... and I don't know if you've experienced ... but I have experienced it at ... in higher education ... you hear ... and obviously it was a really good conversation that we had but it was a mind set that some of 36 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) the academicians from Mexico had. Why is it that you left? And you're going ... Well, maybe you know it was my ancestors that left ... I didn't leave and you're trying to explain yourself ... why it is that you're a marginal group almost. You're a marginal group here in the United States and you're also marginal when it comes to Mexico. Very different .... RR: Well ... unless you go through that process as I did ... I had that mind set ... okay ... I say that I had it because I was raised in Mexico and I remember I just didn't understand ... I said ... .... mentality that any Mexican that lives in the United States is a traitor. But I think as I got to know and meet the people that were born here and they were raised here ... then I understood how typical and how outstanding it was for even for those people that had no cultural backing so to speak ... where they were being taught or being ... you know ... ....... role models to be proud of an ancient culture ... for them to still maintain some close links ... somehow ... with Mexico and the Spanish language and with Mexican culture and so forth ... was incredible in that we as Mexicans ... I mean talking as a Mexican national ... we did not understand ... and so now when I go to Mexico and I hear some caballero ... ......... ... and those kinds of stuff ... I say ... You know what? You have ... until you're put in those people's shoes you will never understand. You have got to work through 37 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) that and understand. And somehow this program was .............. ... I think .............. CS: Yes ... RR: Not in the upper levels ... not in the upper classes ... the super wealthy kind of level ... because that's a much different mind set. I mean they have more in common with the Rockerfellows and the Mellons and that kind of thing ... so it's a total different ........... CS: No, you're talking about the political face being given to the Mexicanos outside of Mexico. RR: Right. CS: And I think it's an economic thing also because they realized with the whole exodus that has occurred in the past century out of Mexico into the United States that there's an awful lot of money there. LG: Sure. CS: It's being spent in the United States. But if you're kind enough to that Mexican who's working in the United States he'll send home the money. And it will be spent in Mexico. You have to cultivate your clients and that's what essentially the Chicano is ... a client from Mexico. RR: See and I think we have to ... originally I think you two were invited to be on the board of the ............... which is ... I think the first one was in San Antonio ...38 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) LG: Yes, it's still there. RR: ... 1963 or ....... ... ............. El Paso de Norte ... CS: It's going to be a cultural center ... not an institute ... but nevertheless ... RR: My participation as an El Pasoan ... okay ... I'm coming from the standpoint that the better presentation the better image of Mexican culture in our city the better it will be ... CS: For everybody. RR: ... for any American of Mexican ancestry. Because that is lacking in the schools. You know ... to give that sense of ... LG: Pride. RR: ... pride ... because I don't ... they're taught history of the United States ........... it began in 1621 and it's very concentrated on the east coast and everything else is like a little paragraph here and there that doesn't get anything. LG: Okay ... so ... getting back to what the ... the concept of what we're trying to do here ... in the Colonial Period ... are you saying that we need to address the fact that the people were not being educated or that they were ... ........? RR: Oh ... the Colonial Period? LG: No ... we're going to start somewhere ... RR: Well ... what I like to see is an exhibit that shows the 39 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) influence of culture that was Spanish language ... dominant ... and then explain to people how much later English became a force. Because people in Texas have no idea ... CS: Let me give you an example ... and this is something that we are battling here in El Paso ... to get more of an understanding of history. There is a Mission Trail Association ... LG: Uh-huh ... ....... CS: ... that is trying to declare this whole area on the United States side ... Texas ... a historic area ... designate it a historic site. LG: This is towards Socorro .......? CS: Socorro ... San Elizario ... RR: ............ CS: ... however ... historically ... in order to ........ the origins of this whole Rio Grande Valley you've got to look at both sides of the river and the reality is that the Mission of Our Lady of Guadalupe across the border was the first ... and it is still extant ... as the original ... and it was the first mission outside of the Basilica in Mexico City dedicated to the Virgen of Guadalupe. And in fact the first mission is this whole ... LG: .......... CS: ... endeavour of the southwest of the mission territory 40 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) ... now ... just that one item should delete from a focus of developing a mission trail ... LG: Yeah. CS: ... it's myopic. LG: Yeah. CS: And so you have to look at the whole thing. You've got to do some kind of contact with Mexico ... agreement ... contract ... to develop researchers who are international ... to be able to know what this region is .... LG: Yeah. CS: And see that's what I have against this demarcation of ......... ... for us it destroys our identity to be called Hispanic. It's like that same thing ... possibly having to look at the river like this. (mixed conversation) RR: And see ... that's where you see this approach to calling the region El Paso del Norte. CS: Yes. RR: Because that includes both. CS: Yes. That's the original name. RR: That Juarez had. LG: Okay. CS: And that was the original name that Cuidad Juarez had up to the 19th century.41 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) LG: Paso del Norte? RR: Paso del Norte. CS: Paso del Norte ... ............... ... and then it developed these other missions on both sides of the river ... San Lorenzo ... San Jose ... .......... back and forth ... all the way down to San Elizar ... because San Elizario did not begin as a mission ... it was a barracks ... a fortress ... LG: Soldiers? CS: ... soldiers quarters ... with a chapel. LG: Uh-huh. CS: But the mission idea with the Franciscans and the whole idea of the .......... with the Indios ... LG: Uh-huh. CS: ... ........ so this is something that ... you know ... you find it in books ... but is not talked about. And then what is talked about as reality is what everybody else thinks ... Oh, that's what's happening. And then you walk in and ... Why does anyone listen to this? (laughter) ... A whole ... and of course that's what history is ... LG: Uh-huh. CS: ... and when you teach children history that's what you're teaching them. And that's why it is so important from the very beginning that they become critical thinkers and that they have that ability to go to different sources.42 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) LG: Otherwise you think ... CS: Otherwise you grow up feeling ... you know ... this ethno-centric view of the world ... what we talked about so much in 1992 ... saying ... you know ... ............ the conquistador ....... colonize the world ... right? RR: You see in Texas history books I don't think you read the importance of El Paso. IR: Sure we don't. RR: As a stopping point ... LG: I think the only mention that it's ... where it comes out more often is during the revolution when Villa and ... well ... when he was fighting against Carenza and all those ... this is one of his ... IR: ......... LG: ... main places to come and get arms and stuff. But other than that ... RR: Well not only that ... the fall of Juarez was the key battle because ... you know ... 2 weeks later .......... resigned and went into exile. LG: Uh-huh. RR: That ended the revolution ... when they finally took Jaurez that ended the revolution. But the thing is that ... you know ... the stream of people coming from Mexico that stayed here for awhile and then went out to California ... I mean ... El 43 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) Paso has a mystique among Californians that the rest of Texas is not even aware. LG: ...... CS: It's in ......... ... it's the origin ... it's the place of crossing ... you've got to come to El Paso. LG: Uh-huh. RR: Yeah ... I've had ... you know ... even ... LG: You said that this was referred to as El Paso del Norte ... right? Where does this Camino Real come into play? Is this the same one? or what? RR: It was a road ... it was a road. CS: It was there because as the focus for the mission was established between Mexico City and Santa Fe which was orignally established by .............. in his crossing the river ... the need then to establish centers ... mining centers ... all along the road to Santa Fe ... then began this Camino Real. Because of the very prestige ........ People who were traveling from Mexico City through centers like San Luis Potosi ............ beginning at Zacatecas ... Luis ... .............. ... Chihuahua ... El Paso ... all the way to Santa Fe. LG: Um. CS: That's the Camino Real. Which was sort of lost when you had the Misery Trail ........ But they are both very important ... 44 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) LG: Uh-huh. CS: ... as connections. See ... again we're connected to all of that ...... Southwest ... it's outside of Tejas ... you can talk about the Mission Trail but only ........ (mixed conversation and laughter) CS: You know ... we're back in a medieval mentality if we think that ... you can't go beyond that because you're going to fall off ... (laughter) ... nothing else there. IR: Has the Institute considered working with researchers from Mexico? LG: It's a .... IR: We have a lot of really good people in Jaurez ... CS: That's right and ...... University. IR: and why does ...... University .... LG: Okay ... something we might bring up. In the past I've been with the Institute for 23 years and in the past we have had interns come to us from Mexico. Matter-of-fact there is at the Hemisfair Plaza where we are located ... there is a branch of the University of Mexico that has classes and we get a lot of people from the University. I don't know whether these people ... why they're doing ... whether they just want to get ... let's say ... extra credit ... or what ... because it's been my experience that the time that they spend there when they leave if they did a report on what they researched or 45 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) whatever ... it stays in the Library ... it is not made public. Prior to coming out here to set this thing up they sent an intern from Michigan ... University of Michigan ... she spent 3 months with us at the Institute ... and she went all over the state interviewing people like yourself ... but just one-on-one. And from that ... from her report ... and the only reason I got to read it was because I became a member of this committee. And I was put in charge of setting up the Community Advisory Meeting here. So I went looking for information about El Paso and in the report I had a transcribed tape of a conversation ... an interview with Cesar Caballero ... another one with the ............ in Socorro. And that was my contact. So when I came here I contacted these people and and that's what got all this going. But ... up until that ... like you said ... if you don't go looking for the information ... they don't tell you ... okay, this is ... we've got this here ... and whether they want to hear their point of view with respect to the topic of what do you want me to learn? ... what do you want me to know about it? Well, that's what we're talking about. Do we want to portray our version of it? from the ... say the United States side of it? ... or do like you were saying ... just up to the border? ... and not worry about what's coming from before that ... or what? ... maybe that's why they don't do ... I don't know ... but it's a good question and I'm going 46 Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting UT-El Paso / Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. (Tape 1) to address it to the people ... see what ... see what ....... ... see what kind of excuse I get. ......... IR: I think to come up with an exhibit that addresses the issue of where we come from ... you cannot leave Mexico out of it in terms of historical information. That's taking ethno-centricity to ... to ... you know ... it's ... I think it would even be embarrassing to not do it. They must become very much a part of the process ... because that's where we come from. LG: Okay. RR: That's exactly ........ END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES. THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso INTERVIEW WITH: Irma Rubio, Catherine Soriano, Ricardo Rios - Tape 2 DATE: 21 May 1994 PLACE: University of Texas at El Paso, Texas INTERVIEWER: Lawrence O. Galvan Jr. G: This is session 2, tape 2. CS: Where are you going? We were talking about ethnocentricity. Yes. RR: Right. Well, the best example is that ... my mind is ... how ... you know ... when you see the weather or you hear the weather being reported in El Paso ... G: Uh-huh. RR: ... or anywhere in the state of Texas just about ... the weather report doesn't show the map of Mexico. I mean it's like ... G: It stops. RR: Like the United States is an island ... G: Is non-existent. RR: I mean it's like ... I mean ... you see this empty space ... you know ... you see the outline of what the border is you know ... between the US and Mexico ... but there's nothing there. G: .......... RR: To me that's an affront. That's an affront. Because there's a country there.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 2 ..: Uh-huh. RR: I mean ... there's a weather pattern that affects us and they ought to show what the temperature is in Chihuahua City and Durango and in Mexico City because it's part of ... it's part of us. G: Yeah. RR: That's ... I mean ... I think that's the way ... ..: And we were in that situation for a long time. We've moved away from that but the rest of Texas has not. You'll see weather casts where Mexico doesn't exist. G: Doesn't exist. RR: Even El Paso doesn't exist. (laughter) (mixed conversation and laughter) RR: Even El Paso doesn't exist. I have actually seen ... books written by University of Texas professors where they named the biggest cities in the state and totally leave out El Paso ... totally leave it out. Like it's ... you know ... G: Non-existent RR: .......... (laughter) G: Let me ask you guys a question ... what Tejano organizations or what Americano organizations do you feel that are important to portray? Like you mentioned M.......... ... somebody brought that out. CS: Yeah. M........... It's a .......Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 3 G: That's a new one ... right? It's not ... CS: No ... actually it's the heart of the beginning of the Chicano movement because it began with the students being aware that ... wait a second! ... we're not being told the whole truth!. G: Uh-huh. CS: And so it was a ... it stands for M.............. G: Okay. CS: On focusing on who they were and where they're coming from ... it was just called ............. G: So aside from that one is there any other organizations that you feel like ....... LULAC ... CS: LULAC of course. RR: LULAC of late has shifted its focus ... G: Yes. RR: ... and has become more politically active .... the courts. I mean ... you know ... there are two landmark ......... ... you know one was Edwards ... Edgewood versus Kirby ... the other one is a higher education funding for the border universities and community colleges. G: Okay. RR: Okay. Those are very, very important lawsuits for the Hispanic community. CS: Um. Connected with that at the moment. The other one in the higher education is the Texas Association of Chicanos Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 4 in Higher Education ... TACHE. G: TACHE. CS: Yes, that is the oldest of the new upper education faculty organizations having to do with the Latino minority education. G: Um. CS: It says in here specifically for the Chicanos in Texas. ......... RR: I think the Hispanic Chambers of Commerce around the state ... up until 1991 El Paso was the only major city in the state that did not have a Hispanic Chamber. And since the formation of the Hispanic Chamber in El Paso ... the competitiveness of the other Chamber has become more evident ... in trying to keep up with what the Hispanic Chamber is doing. So it has created a shift in El Paso that was not there before. G: But it is a positive shift. RR: Very positive. CS: Very positive. To a community you have to have competition. You have to have different things ... you can't have the same thing. Exactly. RR: .......... we're trying to prove to this community that we're really doing something for them and so they ...... kind of ... we're the ones that are doing this for you and we want to do more. CS: Exactly.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 5 RR: Before no one would ever question ... say ... well, that's ... you know ... that's okay what they're doing ... and no one would say ... well, like are you doing enough? But now they know if they don't do ... that they don't do enough ... the other Chamber is going come in there and say ... We're going to do it. G: Uh-huh. IR: I'd like to see some mention of the GI Forum. They started in Texas with Hector Garcia ... I believe ... from the Valley. He definitely rallied around the issue of Americans of Hispanic descent ... or Mexican descent ... that were involved in the war ... what was going to happen after they came back from the war. I think that kind of mobilization is really important. G: Yes. IR: Because their focus was on education. G: Uh-huh. Okay. RR: ...... The heroes that we've had. The many Congressional Medal of Honor winners that even to this day .... recently Medal of Honor winner had some difficulty in having a street named after him. Because it was not known ........ whatsoever. But you know as a group ... as an ethnic group ... Mexican-Americans have won more Congressional Medals of Honor than any other group. And that fact is not recognized except by our community. G: Uh-huh. That's interesting because a lady up there in Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 6 ... during break ... I was talking to one of the committee members ... she said ... I overheard her say something about ... What about the war heroes and things like that? We've got one here I think ... I've forgot what his name was ... and ... What about Buenavides ... and there's several. I said ... That has been touched on ... we're definitely going to have a section in there dealing with military ... what role it plays ... what ....... ... from what the lady was saying the kids need that ... they need to walk ........ Hey, we've got heroes that are .......... And it's something that's gone unaddressed like you said ... if you're having a problem naming the street after some guy that gave his life ... or whatever ... and so it's something that needs to be addressed. We totally agree with that. RR: And also the connection between ... you know ... some Mexican National heroes that were born in ....... Texas ... you know ... like ......... Saragosa ... who was born in Goliad. G: Juan ....... RR: He's the hero of the Cinco de Mayo battle. G: Uh-huh. RR: And that's not recognized in this country. ....... CS: Even here in El Paso where we have a Saragosa port of entry. RR: Right. ..: Some other people who have given their lives for this country ... the United Farm Workers ... it's very important Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 7 to put in their ... as a special part of .... G: You know ... it's interesting ... ..: ... Tejano identity in Texas. G: ... in our community in .......... ... that was what they felt was a very important thing ... the fact that there were migrant workers and things like that ... and the farmers ... strive. In my travels with the Institute ... and I've travelled pretty much all over the state in my 20 some years there ... I find that the further north you get the less these people want to reflect back on that. For example in Amarillo ... I was talking to this gentleman there ... started talking about ............. and all that ... you know ... and I remember going to them ... you know ... I'm not ashamed ... they were part of my growing up. I think that it helped me ... kind of guided me in a more positive way of what ... the struggles that my parents had to go through ... and well, I experienced just a little bit and I made up my mind ... this is not what I want for my kids ... so let's make it better. And yet these people will deny it ... Oh no, that's the other Mexicans ... no ... that's ... Their parents were .... you know ... but they just don't ... like they chose not to address ..... CS: That they just eat the salad ... G: Oh, yes ... CS: ... and the fruits.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 8 G: It's good too. CS: Okay. IR: But the environment is not conducive to that. G: No ... no. IR: Here our comfort zone is wonderful. We can talk about where we came from and how little we had to eat as a family and economically we were underserved or whatever ... our comfort zone here along the US-Mexico border ... as you move into Texas ... San Antonio ... and those areas ... it's very comfortable. It's very nice to be able to do that. You move away from those areas and the comfort zone dissipates. It doesn't exist. So what do you do? CS: You don't talk about it. IR: You don't want to talk about it. Because the enviornment is not there. CS: That respect .......... IR: Respect and support it ... that would support it. CS: It recognizes it first. G: Okay. CS: ....... the contribution. G: So you don't think that by doing that you're not helping to teach the kids that those things did exist ... I mean ... are we just going to ignore it? CS: No, no.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 9 IR: My ......... needs to be included. CS: ....... needs to be recognized ... G: Okay ... okay ... I misunderstood what you were saying. Yes. Okay. CS: As a contribution. All of us would be starving if it were not for the farmer. G: You bet. CS: All of us ... Black ... White ... Italian ... Portugese ... everybody. G: In you opinion are there any objects or some type of artifact that you feel would be essential to help us better exhibit this culture? For example ... a metate ... is that part of Mexican culture or not? Do you consider that an important item or not? In the Valley they wanted ... Why don't you have ... like the backend of a pick-up truck or something filled with migrant workers? or something like that. You know it sounded crazy at the time ... but then the more we thought about it ... it can be done ... you know. CS: And that's part of recognizing ... making that connection with the metate ..... G: That's right. CS: ... but also going back to the pre-Columbian civilizations of ........ America ... G: ........Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 10 CS: ... .......... because what you grind on that is corn ... corn ........ G: ......... okay. CS: And you'd be nothing without the farm worker. It would have to be that education ... what that laborer does. G: Uh-huh. RR: But you know I would hate to see that kind of focus ... just on the labor ... G: Yeah ... no ... no ... ........ RR: ... because then that gives the ... that perpetuates the stereotype that we're all laborers and that that has been the only thing that we've been good at ... and that is not true. (mixed conversation) I want to focus on the fact that we have scientist that are Mexican-American ... that have business people that are Mexican-American ... that you know ... have made tremendous contributions to the wealth and ........ of this country and just because they accumulated some capital and became wealthy that doesn't ... you know ... why should that exclude them from being recognized as .... G: Right. RR: ... as Mexican-Americans? CS: But again that's the link back to pre-Columbian civilization ... civilization which was just not just one ... it was the whole distribution of labor ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 11 IR: Yeah ... because we are laborers ... CS: ... those who worked in the fields but then there were those who planned ... ... there were the ........... ... there were the people who had to distribute all of this ... there were people who had to exchange ... There were the ............... ... okay ... from .............. That word ............ comes from. They were very important traders and merchants that went to the fartherest reaches of the Aztec part of the world. It seemed that ... a world is not unilateral ... it's not one-sided ... the farmer begins it all ... G: Uh-huh. CS: ... and there's the distribution ... there's the economics of all it. RR: But you know he's leading towards how to present the exhibit. CS: Yeah ... but ... RR: What do artifacts? ....... metate ... is the agricultural products that ........ to what? ... we know as Mexican cuisine ... which has been a major contributor to the ... what we all know as being Texan ... the spicy foods ... the chilis and salsas ... and that kind of thing. And the rich regional variety of food ... I mean you know ... down in the lower Rio Grande Valley ... I mean ... cabrito is like ... you Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 12 find it in every corner of the .... (mixed conversation and laughter) ... pavement ... but see you don't see that here ... you don't find cabrito that often here. G: You mention that in San Antonio ... no, you don't. IR: Why I found a place in San Antonio ... G: But this was not that common ... RR: But see ... the thing is that the Valley sells ... I mean ... they have it ... ....... production of ......... they raise goats the most there ... but they sell all of it to Monterrey ... IR: That's right. RR: It goes all to Monterrey. CS.: Um. RR: So you know ... I mean ... that kind of thing is ....... CS: That's an important exchange ... and then the grapes ... for the wines. RR: The wines ... the ......... in El Paso ......... El Paso to the Missions in California. The wine that was used for the consecrecation for the California Missions came from El Paso. CS: Because this was the first Mission Valley. Okay? (mixed conversation and laughter) G: Here we go again ... back to ............. (mixed conversation and laughter)Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 13 RR: That's right. You know ... I mean ... my personal thing would be to show a mosaic ... either images ... flash ... of who we are. That ... you know ... G: Different aspects of ranching. (mixed conversation) RR: ... physicians ... uniforms ... nurses uniforms ... engineers ... construction workers ... construction engineers ... I mean ... the diversity ... that we can't ... I want our kids to know that they can do anything that they want. G: Anything. They are not limited. RR: That's right. But ... you know ... to see an image of a laborer ... laborers being taken to fields and to have that image be kept in your minds for life ... CS: And the only one. G: As the only one. RR: ... yes ... to me that is unacceptable. Unacceptable. G: Okay. But that's a very good idea about the showing of different faces ... we have a production like that at the Institute now but it's not just focused on Spanish ... it's called Places and People ... People and Places of Texas ... and it's exactly what you said ... it's a multi-screen dome in which ... we've got like 23 projectors behind it ... it just shows different places and different people ... not just Mexicanos ... but ... what you're saying is just ... limit ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 14 do just Mexicanos that way in that exhibit ........ CS: Uh-huh. And then maybe as sort of a structure for all of this ... you take all of the places where there are Spanish names ... San Antonio ... G: Cities? CS: ... .......... ... El Paso ... G: ....... MacAllen ... CS: ... yes ... Del Rio ... all of these places that have Spanish names ... G: Right. CS: ... in Texas. G: There's been talk about trying to make this an interactive thing ... like having some kind of screen where you can push ... push a button and talk to this person ... not talk to him ... but listen to him talk. For example ... in conjuction with your ... okay ... let's say there's a picture of a scientist or a doctor or whatever ... push the button and then hear a little bit about him ... maybe like you said ... for the child to take home with him ... you know ... something that that person said ... that will stick with him and maybe it'll help him ... you know ... guide himself or maybe make a choice ............ CS: I know Juarez ... Benito Juarez is a very important person ........... came through Texas ... here in El Paso. I mean that's why we have monuments to Lincoln and Juarez ... in Ciudad Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 15 Juarez ... because that's historic and that's something that I don't think .......... G: Right. IR: In a point of language ... I think that you need to set up some kind of system ... some mechanism where there is some kind of interaction between the public and the Spanish language ... whether we go back to pre-Columbian times and move up through the Spanish ... through the ............ ... the ................. ... all of that. (mixed conversation) CS: ...... the language is so beautiful. IR: And it's a really wonderful opportunity for ... for the public to learn the language ... and see ... you know ... the progression ... the development of it. It's real important. CS: Just to listen to it. IR: Just to listen to it. RR: You know ... in the food category ... I went to Spain in '79 ... and I think finally ... because not only in Mexico you talk about the Mexican War between the US and Mexico from a different perspective but you also become very anti-Spaniard ... anti-Spain. And that ........... ... I mean it's just like ... ......... well, you tell people that Mexican ancestors lived in the United States ....... ... you also don't ... and they teach you not to like the Spaniards ... the ............. ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 16 you know ... so you have this preconceived notions ... ..: ......... (mixed conversation and laughter) RR: ... I go to Spain you know ... and I'm watching all these people and I'm thinking ... that's who I am ... I mean ... it's like going through the motions of breakfast and ... CS: ............... (mixed conversation) RR: ... and then I'm going like ... you know it never dawned on me until I went to Spain ... why we had lunch at 2 o'clock in the afternoon ... or why I was having dinner at 8 o'clock at night. (laughter) It wasn't until I was in Spain ... I say ... Ah, this is the time ... when they do it ........ G: That's right. RR: And then the foods ... you know ........ Spanish foods ... right? ... and I said ... Gosh, this is so bland. Where is the chili? (laughter) Salsa. CS: You order a tortilla ... you order the main course and then you say ... Well, it says tortilla here ... okay, bring me a tortilla also. RR: And they look at you ... CS: One tortillo ... and I think ... Gee, what skimpy people ... (mixed conversation and laughter) ... G: A hugh pizza ... (mixed conversation and laughter)Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 17 RR: But here if people were to learn the contribution of each ... CS: Exchange. RR: ... you know ... from language to cuisine and so forth ... you know ... and costumbres ... customs ... G: That's another thing that we need to touch on. RR: That's comes as a revelation ... and like to put a picture of Castillo ... the countryside of Castillo ... next to a picture of the countryside of an El Paso ... then you'd ... CS: Uh-huh. RR: ... then you'd ... like it dawned on me ... ..: Yes. RR: I said ... No wonder they were not afraid. I mean this looks just like ... G: Just like their home. RR: Yeah ... like Castillo ... dry ... mountainous ... you know ... and I said ... No wonder ... they said ... Hey, let's go ... I mean ... it looks ......... (laughter) G: Hey ... I'm used to this. RR: That's right. (laughter) G: That brings up the next question ... what traits are ... or do you believe that there are traits that bind Americanos together ... and if so ... which are they? You were talking about food ... anything else besides that? Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 18 (mixed conversation) RR: Traits or skills or what? Are you talking about skills or ..... CS: One of the main things is they ... and I think this should be part of the exhibit that not enough people know of the origins of the cowboy. G: Oh! RR: Yes. CS: It's from the vacqueros and that the charro is related to the vacquero but not completely because when you're talking about a charro ... it's more of a ... G: Dressier. CS: ... when you're talking about history you need to talk about social classes but then you also need to focus ........ and the idea that in this country social classes do not define people by negative. You can be a farmer and act as if you're inferior to a businessman ... and that I think we're still in that revolution of equity ... in respecting the work that people do ... the work that people do because not everybody ... everybody would be rich and famous ....... IR: Oh ....... yes. (mixed conversation and laughter) RR: It dawns on me as we talk is that Mexican culture teaches one to respect manual work.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 19 G: Yes. RR: Okay. Work that you do with your hands is very important ... is not minimized ... is not seen as something that is below or beyond you ... because as an elementary grade student in Mexico you were forever asked to do ... work with your hands ... ...... a gift for your Mom on Mother's Day or a teacher or for your father or you know ... whatever ... for Christmas ... you always worked with your hands ... you were never given a kit and said .... ..: I was. (mixed conversation and laughter) RR: Do this ... no ... you were always told ... you are to get this materials ... piece of wood ... a piece of glass ... plate glass ... and some paint ... okay? ... and then the teacher will tell you ... Well, this is the project you're going to do. So you pick you design or whatever ... but this is how it is going to be done and then you would do it. So you were proud as a child ... I remember you were proud of the handiwork that you did ... so I mean ... it was labor from you hands. So ... you know ... (mixed conversation) IR: Reinforces. CS: That the focus on critical thinking ........ as a child. If you allow choice for the child from the very beginning ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 20 he's going to develop and do these things. Which is very contrary to the way you teach children arts and crafts here and you give them a problem and you give them the materials and say ... Okay, you go ahead and do it. ............ they don't know where to being because they've never been given that directive to ......... or something in side of you ... it's not me ... it's you ... and that's what you've got to come up with ... however it's going to look ... that's you. RR: That's you ... yes. CS: And that that's respect that's so important that is missing from our education system ... I think ... IR: But isn't that idea or concept also linked to religion? Idle hands breed ... what? .......... (mixed conversation) IR: Something about hands ... I've heard something about hands ... you know it's possible that ... I mean ... we're all linked in some ways ... CS: ...... positive and productive labor ... that you must do something because if you're doing nothing it's negating ... what God gave you you've got to develop that as much as you can ... your potential ... to be ......... person. G: Interesting. RR: You know I live in a typical ....... neighborhood in El Paso but I cut my own yard ... I mean I do my own yard work Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 21 ... and I've never seen it as below me (laughter) to do it ... even though when it takes .......... front lawn ... (mixed conversation and laughter) RR. people just look at me like ... everybody stops ... I don't know why when they see me out there ... they come out in their Mercedes Benzs or BMWs and all this stuff (laughter) Lincoln Continentals ... and they'll stop and say ... Hi, Ric ... you know ... (laughter) But I've never seen ... and it's because of that respect that I have for ... G: Manual labor. RR: Manual labor. ........ G: It's been proven that a lot of these so-called meaningless jobs that people make the most money ... cutting grass. I mean that's a money-making ........ Those people that started off with just 2 or 3 yards that they were cutting for people ... pretty soon they're ...... in business ... a neighbor liked the way you're doing it ... ....... cuts it for this gentleman over here ... and if he does a good job there then he can go on and pretty soon he's got the whole block. And he's got 3 or 4 people working for him and he's sitting back. ....... People find that demeaning ... no! ... there's money there! ... yes. (mixed conversation and laughter) CS: Well, we're back to the farmer, right? RR: Oh, yeah.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 22 IR: Cultivate ......... RR: .......... the respect that Mexican culture has for manual labor. That's very important. CS: It's considered an art because there was so much of an expression in so many areas whether it was the paint or leather or wood or plaster or architecture ... that was constantly being utilized within that society ... that is an integral part was needed that we respect it. RR: ............ (mixed conversation and laughter) G: I have a question ... when you're cutting grass ... do you go back and forth or you ... just where ... ? (mixed conversation and laughter) RR: I have a big yard ... a big ... it goes ........... G: First question ... this is a 2-part ... first part ... do you have a riding lawnmower or do it walking behind it? RR: No ... walking behind it. G: You're walking behind it. When you cut it in a square ... you do a square ... which way do you go? Growing up when my dad told me to cut the grass ...... cut it ... it never dawned on me that there was a technique for cutting grass ... you know ... I was making the square and I see it getting smaller and as it got smaller it was getting heavier and for the life of me I couldn't figure out why. So he comes out and says ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 23 What are you doing? I'm all finished, Dad. .... job ... cutting ...... throwing into the middle where you've still got to cut. You see what I'm saying? When I was cutting ... the grass that was being cut was being thrown to uncut part of the yard ... so the smaller I made the square the heavier it got ... (mixed conversation and laughter) ... but if you go the opposite ... you cut grass away from you ... it never gets any harder ... it gets easier ... RR: I have a grass-catcher. IR: I have a bagger. RR: It doesn't make any difference but I ... it's like ... it's real different .... CS: I have a clipper ... (makes clipping sounds) IR: Oh, no. (laughter) G: You must have a small yard. CS: No ... no yard ... very tall grass. (laughter) END OF SIDE 1, TAPE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES. SIDE 2. RR: I'm an investment banker ... (laughter) ... so I do not own a grass-cutting ... (laughter) G: Don't get the wrong idea. Do you want your grass cut? Call me. (laughter) CS: He invests in grass.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 24 G: He invests in grass. (laughter) That's could be ... IR: Now that could be ... G: Yes. IR: ... ......... misconstrued ... G: ... miscontrued ... big time ... yes. CS: See what I mean about the diversity of meaning that you find in one little word? G: Uh-huh. CS: Grass. (laughter) The context ... the significance within that context ... G: Oh, yes. (laughter) IR: In one little word. G: Like you said ... language. CS: Language. ..: Right. IR: Most definitely ... most definitely. .... to be included .... CS: I saw this movie ... Farewell My Concubine ... G: Uh-huh. CS: ... I don't know if you've seen it ... but it's all in Chinese ... the text is ... for me that was the first time that I have been able to listen to Chinese for the duration of a few hours ... which was very important because all of a sudden you suddenly realized the different inflections ... are very Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 25 different ......... Spanish ....... languages. You have tones that go from way down ...... (makes different sounds) ... G: Uh-huh. CS: And when a Chinese person learns to speak English he's going to carry those inflections ......... The same way that when Spanish speakers ... native language is Spanish ... speak English they're going to carry those same inflections of Spanish into the English language. So there are those differences in ... not only vocabulary ... but also inflection ... G: Uh-huh. CS: Many times because we are ........... people we feel ....... and they are either ... they are pleasant for us or unpleasant. G: Right. CS: And this is connected. It's been researched by educators in educational psychology that this begins in the womb ... as early as 4 months .......... ... listening to ......(makes muffled noises)........ ... G: Uh-huh. CS: But it is in the tone of whatever that language is ... if it's English or it's Spanish ... or if it's any other language. It's the comfort zone. If you're talking ... G: .......... CS: ... which is why when the child comes out and he hears Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 26 somebody speaking ... (speaks in squeaky voice) ... like you heard ...... in the womb ... he's going to go to that person because that person represents a certain support. And that's why in ......... teachers who are role models for Mexicanos it's so important that they be able to relate because in those early years the main thing ... feeling comfortable ... G: Uh-huh. CS: ... nurturing. It doesn't mean that they shouldn't also be exposed to others but they need to have those role models in order for them to grow and develop. G: ........ CS: And this is a developmental scientific fact that the way that we develop as human beings. ......... (whispers) ....... sound of language ... And it also helps us to understand each other too. Because as we are talking about different cultures we can then begin to understand ..... why a person who speaks Chinese or English or Spanish or French are going to have a certain relationship that they have with their language .......... And why vice versa these sterotypes build up ... G: Uh-huh. CS: ... and the way you hear the English speaker ... you think ... wow! ... and then the Chinese or any Asian ... G: Lower. CS: No ... much higher ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 27 G.: Oh. CS: ... because of the range ... you know ... one syllable can be ....(sounds)... You remember Dr. Dolittle in the ...? you know ... the a ... ooh ... G: Okay. CS: But Spanish ... ah .. G: ........ CS: (whispers) ........ and so when children are being addressed by their English-speaking dominant language teacher ... speak up ... speak up ... (whispers) ... G: Uh-huh. CS: ... (whispers) .... and what gets put on the child is a sense of inferiority because he's not speaking up. G: Uh-huh. CS: But he's just doing what he is. What he felt in the womb ....... G: Uh-huh. CS: It is a very sensitive thing that we become of aware of in cultural awareness and deal with it ....... in Texas or the United States. Those different perspectives ... points of views. RR: ..... music. G: .......... music ... Do you think there's a difference? RR: Difference between ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 28 ..: ........... G: What kind of music are you talking about? Conjunto music? Tejano music? Mariachi music? What? ..: Ballards? RR: Well, no ... that we emcompass all music ... G: Uh-huh. RR: ... even classical music. G: Sure. RR: ......... I don't think of his name very often but Antonio ........... was a Mexican composer ... let's see ... 18th century ... wrote a number of pieces that to a lay person, for example, would not be able to distinguish between Antonio ............'s music and Mozart's. Wonderful music and not played often enough in the United States or in the world for that matter ... I became aware of S.........'s work through a program that is produced at KKET by ... it's a doctor in Juarez who does the program ... he does it in English ... and on his own funds he has researched all this music ... he has to go to Mexico City to get recordings of Mexican composers ... CS: Felix Cantu? RR: No. CS: No. RR: Oh, no, no. It's Dr. ... I can't remember ... he's got a program on Sundays ... KKET ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 29 ..: Uh-huh. RR: ... and it's called the Mexican Classical Musical Hour. G: Um. ..: Uh-huh. RR: Okay ... and I mean it's just incredible ... I mean you listen to it and say ... ..... kind of music is not played? G: That's interesting. When we did this same thing in Edinburg ... the gentleman suggested when we brought up the subject of music ... why not have ... like a radio ... car-radio or something like that ... or a regular radio ... and just have different tapes ... different time periods .... music ... you know ... ........... ... and then we come back into the '50s ... .......... what kind of music is going on there? And bring it up to the present. IR: And you can correlate that with dance. G: Uh-huh ... exactly. IR: Real well. G: Sure. IR: They'll use it in graphics ... graphic shots or whatever ... G: Uh-huh. IR: ... correlate it together. G: Uh-huh. Yeah. CS: But at the same time it doesn't have a cut-off ....Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 30 G: No. CS: ... ...... stop and this went on ... G: No ... it just keeps going. CS: It just keeps going. Because .......... G: ....... sure ......... IR: Mambo. RR: Like going way back ... 16 ... 17 ... 18 ... 19th century ... the Mexican-Americans ... or the Mexicans of the time ... because they were Mexican ... that lived in ............ Provincia de Tejas ... had culture ... had music ... had writings ... had poetry ... and that's never recognized in history books. The Colonial Period is basically ... G: ......... RR: ... Spanish ... okay ... Spanish ... ...... Spain ... but like it was ... Spain is an island and it had an outpost over here and all the culture was in Spain ... see you never hear about the Mexican authors ... I mean like ........., for example ... or ... let me see ... ................ ... .............. was Mexican ... but you know was ... studied in Spain and wrote plays over there ... but he's considered a Mexican playwrite. You know ... San Juan Ynez de la Cruz ... from Mexico ... that was part of the culture that was in the Province of Tejas. G: Uh-huh. RR: And that's never recognized ... because it's always like Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 31 ... again ... we were an island and the mother country had all the culture but you know the culture was here too because that came ... G: ....... RR: ... with the priests and with the ....... CS: And that's why so many of the artisans and craftsmen ... painters ... are not known by name ... they didn't ask for this and that ... because the way they've been looked at by historians ... well, this one did this particular image lots ...... so he's the master of the .... ..: ........ CS: ... master of the San Jose ... because he did a lot of San Joses ... but names were lost because they were from here ... they were not ......... G: Okay. Well, this has been very interesting to say the least. I'll tell you what ... Cesar was not lying ... he didn't ... (laughter) ... IR: What did he say? (laughter) G: ... he didn't exagerate it by ...... CS: ..... a lot of diversity ... G: Oh, my God, yes. CS: ... and to try to pull it together from ... to find one thing that is going to put it all together it's a very difficult area .......Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 32 G: Yes, I'm just going to read ... CS: ... got to put it all and it's got to be inclusive ... G: Okay. Let me read ... let me read ... CS: ... term we had sort of figured out here ... just in this group ... is that the Mexicano term incompasses it all. G: Right. CS: For the Mexicano from Texas and then that way it doesn't cut it off from anything else. G: Okay. Let's see ... you guys listen and tell me if you think we've left anything out ... I think we've touched on ... actually everyone of these ... education ... work ... public and private sides of everyday life ... sexuality ... did we touch on that? or? ... CS: We didn't. We didn't talk about that. (mixed conversation) G: We've got a few more minutes. Poverty ... we touched on that ... organizational life ... artistic expression ... we just ... religion ... social class ... within the Tejano group ... this man cuts his own grass ... you see ... ..: (laughter) G: ... gender ... CS: The gender ... ..... we did ..... G: Okay ... race ... discrimination ... civil rights or political empowerment ... I think we've touched everyone except Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 33 for gender and the sexuality. CS: Then maybe that should come under the civil rights situation because the focus for the Chicana has been this aspect of recognizing the woman for the contribution ... because many times the Mexican society ... this is one of the negatives ... not straight-across-the-board ... just one of the negatives ... is that the way ............. ... she was not allowed to be educated ... through the educational system ... she was a woman ... and so that reflects the role of women in that society ... that they were property and that they only meant something when they got married and had children ... but the reality is from the pre-Columbian world ... the .......... shows that the woman has been nurturer and it is the feminine principle within them that has allowed them to advocate for justice ... advocate for peace. G: Interesting. This young lady yesterday at the high school ... we asked if she had any role model ... who she admired ... and I was expecting for her to say ... you know ... some movie star or something like that ... and she said ... her mother. CS: Beautiful. G: And it took us for a loop ... because I wasn't expecting that. She said ... my mother ... because of the way she brought me up ... nothing was ever a problem for her ... anything was possible. And if she set her mind to do it she would do it. Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 34 And that's instilled in me and that's what I want to do. I mean it just caught me completely off-guard ... completely off-guard. And that's the ....... ..: Uh-huh. G: I wasn't expecting it ... it just came out of left field ... boom! ......... Okay, since we touched on most of those ... one last question ... what do you think we ought to name the exhibit? ........ Tejanos ........ what do you consider appropriate? CS: The exhibit within the ....... ....... G: Our area ... the area we're talking about ......... IR: Reaching a consensus ... G: It doesn't have to be a consensus ... I want your opinion. RR: Going by looking at the other exhibits ... you have German ... you have Spanish ... although .......... ... you have Italian ... G: Greeks ... uh-huh. RR: Japanese ... Korean ... Chinese ... ......... ... it would not be offensive to me ........ probably be a right step on ..... G: A step in the right direction? RR: ... right direction is to ... G: Leave it as Mexicano? RR: Yeah.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 35 IR: Mexican. G: Mexican. You feel the same way? IR: I think that the word Mexicano is more appropriate than the word Tejano. G: Uh-huh. IR: In keeping with what you're trying to do in the Institute you've got one word that is in Spanish because it reflects the Spanish-speaking community and I don't know if that's the direction that you want to take. G: No. IR: See what I'm saying? In other words the other exhibits are called Chinese ... it's not by their own name. German ... it's not German in German ... you know what I mean ... G: Uh-huh. RR: Dutch. IR: Right. So why would we go with Mexicano? If it's .... CS: And not Mexican you mean? IR: ... and not Mexican? RR: I would. IR: And it might be splitting hairs at this point but I'm saying ... I'm comfortable with Mexicano I don't know if that's what the directiion is what the Institute wants to take in terms of being pretty much ... ..: .....Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 36 RR: ...... Mexican or ........ G: As opposed to Tejano ... you'd rather use ... IR: I don't like Tejano. RR: I would like Mexican. G: You would like Mexican? CS: Well, I think you're correct in that sense because ... okay ... going back to what I said ... that since all of the other exhibits ... G: Are going to stay the same. CS: ... are English and we're talking about Texas identity ... Texan cultures ... then what we're talking about is the Mexican culture ......... and all of those other terms are English ... G: In English. IR: ... and that's also because a lot of the Chicano write in English. ..: ........ CS: So Mexican is going to be all-emcompassing and I hope that within the exhibit you build in all of this diversity. G: Oh, yes. Right. IR: Yeah. CS: That there are the Mexicanos ... that there are other nationals that are part of this ... G: Sure ... yes.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 37 CS: There are those people who have their little ... what is it? ... their resident card ... but they are from Mexico. G: Yes. We have an area that's in the exhibit floor ... we call it the music room ... and it's a room about this big ... and it's got cases built into the wall with ...... to keep kids from touching stuff ... we've got musical instruments from all over ... okay ... and when you're walking up to it ... off the grid in the ceiling we've got rods about that long with a board on it and it's painted and it's got the word music ... but it's written in different languages ... and people make the connection like that. They walk into it and they start ... oh, I'll bet you that means music. You know ... but it's a different language. The thought was brought up in what you were saying ... if we do name it Mexicano ... Mexican ... whatever ... the thought was brought up that ... or the idea ... to put all these other names. CS: Yes. Yes. IR: Yes. CS: It is very important to ... G: Because that part of it. CS: ... to this point Chicano has not been a part of the institutionalized education ... especially from the University of Texas ... with all Mexican-Americans. And that's excluding a point of view that's very important ...... And so if you Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso Lawrence Galvan Jr (Tape 2) 38 connect it to Mexican ... whatcha got? ... with even Hispanic ... with Mexican-American ... with all the other diversity ... ...... Tejano ... Hispano ... all of that is part of that. G: Uh-huh. Okay. CS: I think it's good. G: Okay. ..: Um. G: Well, I want to thank you ... this has been very enlightening. Um. Very much ... (laughter) END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES. |
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