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Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, El Paso, Texas, Part 5, May 21, 1994
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Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, El Paso, Texas, Part 5, May 21, 1994
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THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso
INTERVIEW WITH: Queta Fierro, Rene Nunez,
Joe Ledesma, Carlos Callejo (Tape 1)
DATE: 21 May 1994
PLACE: University of Texas at El Paso
INTERVIEWERS: Laurie Gudzikowski
LG: ... saying this is Laurie and we're in El Paso this morning for a Community Advisory Meeting. And I'm going to go around the table and ask everyone to say their name and to say a little bit about themselves as we start our tape this morning.
QF: My name is Queta Fierro and I'm a native El Pasoan, very proud of it, I recently retired from Government employment and I am doing my thing ... doing the things I enjoy and I'm having a wonderful time.
RN: Hi. My name is Rene Nunez. I'm also a born and raised El Pasoan. I'm with El Paso Community College and also very proud to be a member of the State Board of Education, representing the El Paso County in Austin.
JL: Hi, my name is Joe Ledesma from the city of Socorro. I'm a retired civil service, I'm involved with the Mission Trail Association, I was City Council with the City of Socorro for two years, the Mayor Pro Tem. Thank you.
LG: Very good. Now okay. Now I have some questions to ... to at least to begin the discussion and we're certainly not going to be limited to these questions, if the discussion ranges around ... that's ... the better ... the farther it ranges and the more that we learn ... the better ........ We ... you ... most of you saw some plans and heard some plans about our exhibit ... I'd like to start with what isyour reaction to the exhibit plans that we just presented. What you heard about our plans for this exhibit and how we are going about it ... I'd like your reactions to that ... if you have any. We've already had some questions about the meaning of the exhibit ... calling it a Tejano Exhibit ... if you have any reactions about that ... we'd like to know.
QF: It was some discussion as to what we like to be called ... ourselves. And personally I'd ... I like to be called Hispanic or Mexican-American. I don't have any problems with anything else. It's just that that's what I'm more familiar with and more accustomed to. It's just a matter of preference.
LG: How about you?
JL: ........
RN: In the scope of trying to have presence in the United States and identify yourself as a group of people that ... at the present time is a minority ... Hispanic is okay with me because I understand it ... but I was always brought up to be known as a Mexican-American and probably the most comfortable of all terms to me is a Mexican-American.
JL: Well, I'm kind of confused ... for the last 15 years ... (laughter) ... they've been calling you Chicano ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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Mexican-American ... and when I was raised out here in the Lower Valley ... we were considered as Tejanos ... Texans ... you know. Any place you go ... Where're you from? ... From Texas. But I don't know about Mexican-American ... what are we? Years back when you made an application ... it always said there ... Races ... who are you? ... White ... and that was it ... and now you have ... Hispanic ... Africans ... Asia ... so you don't know where you stand. Actually, I'm very confused. I think that I'm a Texan ... and I'm an American ... an American-Texan ... that's it. Because I was born here in the US and I think that I'm an American and I'm a Texan. And that's it.
LG: That's the exact kind of thing that we want. We want to know what ... who people think they are ... because you're right ... this is a very confusing thing. I hate it when I have a form to fill out. No matter how I fill it out ... in Texas ... they always end up saying ... Anglo.
QF: Uh-huh.
JL: Yes. I mean ... that's what really gets confusing. Before you weren't confused ... I mean ... you go ... any application you'd fill out ... it only had ... White ... Color ... that's it.
QF: That was in the old days.
JL: But now we're all confused. And most of our kids are very confused.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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LG: Well ... then that's part of the sum of the things that we need to say ... that identity is something that shifts and it's in a state of ........
RN: Well, I think a lot of it is intended to create equities ... because as a whole ... as a whole if you go back in history many groups of people have been discriminated against and in order to fight discrimination you had to have a label and you had to identify yourself as a part of a certain group. And in this state as many, many, many people came from Mexican descent ... and I can tell you from being in the school business all of my life ... there is a lot of discrimination against the Mexican-American child ... in the form of facilities ... in the form of playground equipment ... in the form of who got more funding than who ... that type of thing. And all of those things have not come out until recently and therefore the label became important in the fight for equity. And I think that was part of it.
LG: Okay. Now. As I think we made it clear ... or perhaps we didn't ... the Institute of Texan Cultures has a fairly large exhibit floor and it has always had exhibits of people by ethnic background. We had one exhibit that was a Spanish exhibit ... one that was Mexican ... one German ... one Belgium ... one Scots ... and so on. We're in the process of re-doing the Spanish-Mexican areas ... because basically not much has been Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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done with them since 1968 when we opened and the world has changed a lot since then.
JL: Um.
LG: We ... the thought is to combine those two areas into one area that we are tentatively calling Tejano. And that is still a title ... a title that has been much discussed over the years. There's a lot that we need to learn about how people identify themselves and just how people deal with their identity that needs to go in that. We don't have an infinite amount of space ... this will be an exhibit that talks about the Mexican-American culture ... in Texas ... there will be other exhibits that talk about German-Americans in Texas ... and Belgians in Texan ... and Indians in Texas ... and so on. By legislative mandate we deal with Texas ... so we cannot deal with the whole world ... but we don't even have space to deal with all of the aspects of a culture that's been around in Texas for 300 years and comprises ... at least in some places ... a third to a half of the population ... it's of the ........ subject. So ... what 2 or 3 main points do you think that the exhibit should concentrate on?
RN: I think one of the things is to let people know and be aware of that it is 400 years ... El Paso has celebrated its 400th anniversary plus ....... And that it was part of Mexico and Spain ... we know that ... and that importance was never Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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brought out to the children of Texas in the early '30s and '40s and '50s ... and so we need to teach ... I think ... our youth now so they can be very, very proud of the heritage that was here at one time ... and the culture. LG: ......... there is one thing that we would like to see as an important thing ....... exhibit of this kind?
QF: Well, it's a ... we need to let everybody know that we've been here for a long, long time. And it should be brought out and made evident to everybody ... like Rene said ... we didn't read about that in our books. And it's something that we need to get out and make everybody aware of. Because if we don't ... how are we going to get word out? I mean ... it's just word of mouth ... that's what we do now ... in our families ... with our friends ... and gatherings ... when we recollect the past ... when we get together in groups and we reminisce and we talk about it ... but we never read it. The only thing that we read was what? the Alamo? you know.
RN: And that was very negative.
LG: It's a very limited kind of view.
RN: And a touchy subject in San Antonio now.
..: Touchy subject in San Antonio.
..: Yes.
..: Very touchy subject.
LG: It's always been a touchy subject ... but it's more public Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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recently.
QF: And I remember when I went to Mexico ... ...... years ago ... we went to the Chapultepec ... Palacio Chapultepec and there the guide that was taking us on this tour said ... And this is where the ninos ........ were killed by Americans. ... you know ... God, I said, what? You know ... it's very negative still. ............
LG: It's one of the land-mark events of the history ...
QF: Uh-huh ... yes.
LG: The Hispanics ... Tejanos ... Chicanos ... in Texas.
..: Uh-huh.
JL: I think that we should all be educated in our history. Not only our children but adults. Some American adults don't even know our history at all. I mean ... you talk to people and they don't know where they came from. They don't know their roots. And I think ... like ...... Nunez was saying ... I mean ... in the '30s and the '40s ... what did you have in the history of us? ........? it was only the Americans ... the history of Texas ... and that was it. If you read the history of Texas it doesn't show where we came from ... where were we then? And I think it's very important ... not only to adults ... I mean ... children ... but to adults to educate them in our history.
LG: Seems like everyone one agrees that roots are an important Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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part of our ... will be an important part of exhibit. Are there any other really important main points that you would like ... suppose you were walking through the exhibit ... what would you like to remember ... most?
RN: I'd like to give you a saying that I've heard and read and that is ... When a tree grows and matures ... if you pick up the tree ... and just transplant it ... that you leave the roots ... the tree will die. And that's why roots are extremely important and the growth ... about people.
LG: Uh-huh. That's a nice quote. That's why we want you to sign the release so we can use those quotes like that. (laughter)
RN: So that roots and traditions become a very, very important part of your identity ... I think. And one of the nice events that just recently happened to me ... Thursday night we made a presentation of scholarships to a group of vocational students at the Holiday Inn and every single one of those students that went up there to the mike thanked their Mom and Dad ... first ... before anybody else. For providing the shelter and the food ... you know ... the support system so that they could succeed in their educational endeavors.
JL: And their life.
RN: And their life. Then they went on to thank teachers and other individuals ... but it was very nice to see that tradition Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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carried on ... every single one. And I think that that's probably very important with other cultures ... I'm sure it is with other cultures ... where the parents play an important part and so you have to mentor your children with the important parts of your culture and your traditions and your roots.
JL: Often your parents are the roots ... right? Exactly ... that's where your roots start ... and from your great-grandparents that's the other roots ... you know ... and those roots are spread all over. So ... you have a good point there.
RN: And I find that one of the things that probably happened to me and happens to many ... the young men and women ... is that when you mainstream into the American way of life and the American culture ... which is a melting pot of many cultures and many traditions ... you tend to forget your traditional roots and your traditional ... in a culture ... and ....
JL: Excuse me ... you're right about that. And in my years when I was going to school ... in grade school ... we were ashamed to take tortillas ... really ... and I'm going to tell you this ... this was the truth ... the white people would make fun of a lot of us ... we used to eat from our bags ... trying to hide ...
QF: To hide.
JL: ... hide the burrito. And I'm not ashamed to say it ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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I came from a very, very poor family and we used to take tortillas and they'd make fun of those ... because we'd take tortillas and frijoles. Now, the Mexican food is so popular you know ... that when you see a burrito you try to put it as high in the air so you can see it and everybody wants it ... you know ... and before you know ... we were ashamed ... to tell you the truth.
RN: .......
JL: And there were ... because they would make fun of us.
QF: Family backgrounds ... traditional things that we used to do ... the neighborhood ... the music ... that we lived with in that time ... when we were growing up ... well, when I was growing up ... you're younger ... (laughter) ...
RN: Just a little.
QF: ... and that's what I'd like to see ... kind of like the neighborhood set-up ... you know ...
LG: Can you be a little more graphic on your descriptions?
QF: Uh ... we were poor but I think everybody else was too. We just didn't know. You know ... everybody else was too. This was back in the late '30s ... early '40s ... '50s ... got our husbands in the '50s ... I ... my parents weren't with me ... they divorced and my father was sick so ... he wasn't really with us he was in the hospital ... but I was raised by my grandmother ... her sister ... my aunt ... or second aunt Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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... and her daughter ... so I was raised by women who were very hard working ... they worked so hard. My grandmother stayed home ... she kind of looked after the house ... the food and everything ... took care of us ... like a mother ... for everybody. And then my 2 aunts would go out and work ... one as a seamstress ... for years and years ... that was her life ... and the other one became a teacher ... her daughter. And she worked very hard also ... she went to school here to ... it was Texas Western College ... and she went to school at night ... for 12 years ... to get her degree. And I remember these women being so strict ... they were so strict ... but I think everybody else was too. You know ... it wasn't this lax attitude that we hear about ... and I say hear about because people I know ... that I grew up with ... were strict ... their families were strict with them too ... and I think they have continued ... perhaps not as rigid as we were raised ... but they continued with their children too. But you hear of other people and what's going on now with the youth ... you know ... the problems that they've created and gotten into and all that that ... we know that there's a lot of lax families that are there ... I don't know what they're doing ... if anything ... you know ... and I'd like to see this portrayed somehow. I don't know how ... but ... in the evenings we didn't go out on the streets or anything ... we would go out on the front porch and sit there Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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in the summers and we'd hear cuentos ... stories ... you know
... we didn't have TV. We had radio and I remember listening
to the radio a lot ... to stories on the radio ... and your
mind would just grow and expand ... because you had to visualize
... you had to imagine ... and that's how you worked ... your
mind grew that way. And then we'd meet next day ... did you
listen to such-and-such? ... and you re-act the whole story
with your friends and we'd sit there at Mamie's and this is
what we would do and hear stories or listen to the radio ...
with your young friends and ... it was a whole different world.
LG: Do you think that perhaps since you were raised by your
grandmother ... an older generation ... you had a more
conservative upbringing than other of your peers? or was
everyone the same?
QF: I think it was similar. Now I must ... it meant that I
thought that I was raised by very, very strict family members.
The others ... and I was an only child ... and so maybe that's
why I think that perhaps my family was a little bit more stricter
than the others. The others had parents ... real parents there
... and they had brothers and sisters and there was more love
going around ... you know ... and I thought ... Oh, they don't
love me because they're so strict ... why would they prevent
me to go out? and do this ... because the others were doing
it. But the others had the companionship of their own brothers
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and sisters ... who might have been older and they were intermingling you know. And so ... I don't know ... but they weren't roaming the streets like they do now. It's different.
RN: Very different. We live in a much different world ... I think ... that because we all wanted to mainstream so much and pick up the habits of the period of time that you were growing up in ... you tended to lose a lot of those traditions which were ... that respected a mother and a father ... and the discipline. There's probably some key points in our history that will come out as we study the '60s and '70s and that was ... I blame ... as good as a doctor as he was I blame Dr. Spock a whole lot for ....
..: Uh-huh.
RN: ... teaching my wife and myself ... a permissive society ... that he wrote about and the lack of discipline and I think this generation is suffering from some of those teachings and we lost a lot of that discipline and now you have a group of citizens wanting to go back to family values and family traditions ... and the family is very important. The Germans that settled in Texas were very strict with their children ... you had a very ... deep culture in a sense of family and as they've mainstreamed and married off into other groups ... and so we all lose this ... how can we develop an institution of Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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education such as this and in all our learning institutions ... to bring back some of those values and those teachings back so that our children can at least compare the two and make some decisions for their future? I think that that would be a good way of trying to teach back some of the things that we have lost.
JL: I think that the loser values ... like they were saying ... when they call out with the child abuse ... I mean that's when the kids came out that they don't want to be touched ... they don't want to learn what their fathers taught them before ... and they came ... they went on their own ... and I see what's ... what is the problem now? ... and they think they have all of the authority of themself ... their fathers cannot correct them ... they go to school and they cannot correct them because you're abusing them. And before we had ... our fathers would tell you to do this or do that ... and you obeyed them ... and you learned more ... that was your culture. If your father would tell you ... You be here by 9 o'clock at night. You would be there ... if you don't I'm going to spank you.
QF: Exactly.
JL: You were there at 9 o'clock. And now if you tell one of these kids ... You be here by 9 and I'm going to spank you. He's going to jump and say ... Hey, you touch me and I'm going to send you to jail. And that's the way they live now. It's Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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very hard to bring the culture the way it was before you know. Like she was saying ... I remember when I was a kid you know ... during the month of May we used to go to this lady that had this ... what do they call it in English? ... Ofrecer Flores ...
QF: Ofrecer Flores ... in the month of May because it's the month of the Virgen.
JL: The Virgen. And it was a lot of fun you know. We'd go in the evenings and pray and we'd put ... go around and put the flowers to the Virgin ...
QF: To the Virgin and the altar at church.
JL: ... and pray. And it was ...
QF: Very traditional.
JL: Very traditional. And you don't see those things anymore. We lost that. And ... you know ... we lost a lot of things you know. And sometimes I sit with my sons and my 2 daughters and we tell them that when we were young ... I mean ... we didn't have any restrooms at home ... we had an outhouse ... we used to pump water ... chop wood ... and they don't believe us. And we had those duties ... my brother would bring some water and I would chop wood one day and we'd alternate it ... and that was ...
QF: You were assigned .........
JL: ... and that was ... those were our duties. And now you Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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don't have ... those kids don't do anything ... just see television and that's it. And this is where we lost everything.
QF: Yes, I remember being told to do something or especially not to speak out of turn ... like I'm doing right now ... (laughter) ... you know ... and if some ... if my aunt or my grandmother was speaking and I interrupted because I thought I knew the answer ... I had heard ... you know ... somebody say such-and-such ... and it was a subject that I thought I knew something about and I could give them the answer and I remember they just turned and gave me this icy look with their eyes and I would just freeze. They didn't have to say anything ... I knew that I had had it. (laughter) And that when this conversation would be over and this person that was visiting would leave our home ... I would get it. And that was ... and sure enough ... my aunt would say ... You will never speak out of turn unless you are called upon. You will sit in this room where we're having a conversation but you will not speak unless you're told. And that's the way it was. And if I said anything or did something that I would immediately realize that was not the right thing to do ... I would just automatically look at her and her eyes would be just at me and that's the way I was raised ... you know ... brought up.
JL: Excuse me ... Queta ... since you were boarding with you aunts did you feel that you ... they would punish you because Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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you were adopted or whatever? Because ...
QF: No.
JL: I was ... excuse me ... I was ... my mother died when I was born and I was ....... born ... and I was raised with my uncle and aunt and when I was growing up ... you know ... when I found out that they weren't my father and mother ... you know ... I felt if they would tell me something ... they were punishing ... because I was ... but I noticed that they were doing the same thing with my oldest brother.
QF: Uh-huh.
JL: ........
QF: I thought at the time they didn't love me ... but later on as I became an adult and they died and I looked back ... they really loved me ... they did ... and it was because of that love that they had that I didn't turn out to be such a rotten person ... you know. (laughter) But I look back and I say ... they really cared enough to be the way they were and take a chance that I would take it the other way ... and I did ... because I was young ... and I really didn't understand ... I said ... Hey, what a dumb kid. But they did.
JL: Uh. You're right about ...
QF: They loved you.
JL: They loved you. Yeah. I felt the same way about ... the way you're saying it ... my father and mother are not here ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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my uncle doesn't love me because he's calling me ... he's telling me to do something. But now I appreciate every word he told me.
QF: You bet.
JL: I mean ... because he showed me the same thing that he showed his own son ... and I learned a lot ... to respect the elderly ...
QF: He treated you the same way.
JL: The same way. But at that moment I didn't feel that way ... sometimes you don't ... I would go out and cry ... you know.
QF: I did the same thing. Uh-huh.
LG: Well, we've had a lot of talk about the importance of families ... importance of passing on values to the children ... can you see just ways that we could bring these points out visually. Our musuem exhibit is a visual thing ... it's not a book on the wall ... it's visual. What kind of artifacts do you think? other artifacts or stuff? what kinds of things could we show this how through graphics ... through videos ... through set-ups ... settings ... manikins ... I don't know ... video ....
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
LG: ... of the tape.
RN: I think it's very important that you get a person with Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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some expertise to interpret all the tapes that you're taking around the three areas of the ... the Rio Grande Valley, El Paso, and your other areas ... and try to maybe duplicate a scene with some of the statements that have been made and try to either have a video made or something and act out some of these traditions and some of these statements and some of these ... the very, very important cultural habits so that it could be used as a teaching tool to those young people that would visit your institution and use that as a lesson in ... not only in history ... but hopefully that they would pick up some of the ideas and hopefully implement them in their lives.
QF: Well, not only that. Too, adults ... because when they see this tape that is being acted out from our ideas and conversations ... they too will relate to all of this.
JL: Exactly.
RN: Uh-huh.
QF: Right? They will identify. I remember, we used to do this. You know. And so it would be ... it would be fun.
..: Something like that.
JL: It's a ... excuse me ... a lot of adults like she's saying ... Queta's saying ... we've forgotten what we went through and we have to remind ourself and let the children ... the younger generation ... know what we went through. It was hard ... but it was a lot of fun. I think it was a lot of fun. And this Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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is what we have to ... you say you can put it in a video or whatever ... but show this younger generation ... you know we should be very proud what our ancestors showed us ... and because they showed us a lesson that's why we're here and this is the way our children is going to be proud of us ... what we left behind ... and this is the roots that are going ... and I think if you put something on the video or a museum where you see a man picking cotton ... I used to pick cotton when I was a kid you know ... and people don't know because they see these big machines picking cotton ... they don't know that we used to pick by hand.
LG: Can you talk a little bit about your life? and ...
QF: ...... this is where we would like you to sit.
..: .. ... okay ... I'm so sorry.
LG: Could you talk a little bit about your life? and about picking cotton? and about the kind of life that you led?
JL: Well, I was raised in Socorro, born and raised in Socorro. At that time ... you know ... we went to school and after school we used to go and pick cotton. To get extra money to go to the movies or buy ourselves a pair of Levi's.
LG: Uh-huh.
JL: At that time a pair of Levi's cost a $1.45 and the only place you could find them was at Popular's Dry Goods. And it was very enjoyable for us you know. Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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LG: How much ... how much ... how long did you have to work to earn a $1.45?
JL: Well, at that time you'd probably have to work a full ... let's say ... two hours ... every evening ...
LG: For how long? to earn that much money?
JL: Oh, they used to pay you $.25 for a 100 pounds ... so you would probably pick 20 pounds every evening so ... (laughter) ...
LG: So that's a lot of time to get ... went into those jeans.
JL: Right. A lot of backaches ... you know ... picking cotton and ... that's what we used to do you know ... to get extra money for Christmas too ... that was ... that was very enjoyable ... go to the cotton fields ... on Saturdays we used to go out there and pick cotton through half of the day or whatever ... to have extra money.
LG: Now ... you've said several times ... it was very enjoyable ... what was enjoyable about it?
JL: About it? Because you had a feeling that you were going to earn some money.
LG: Uh-huh.
JL: At that time it was very hard to have money. Your parents couldn't afford to give you ... even a quarter ... so when you earned your money you feel very proud. And ... you know ... it made you feel good ... that this is my money and I'm going Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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to spend on clothing ... because I need a pair of Levi's for school ... or a shirt ... and this is the way it was. And I still have some cotton ... I have 15 acres of cotton right now ... and I still have that cotton ... But you know ... as the cotton field went up ... you know ... you see now ... cotton pickers and you'll see those things ... you know ... I think if they go back to picking cotton by hand ... it's cleaner ... it's more valuable when you sell it ... and the kids would learn more about it. Because after school ... how many kids go out of school? ... and what do they do? ... nothing ... ........ go and pick cotton ... They would earn their money and have something to be proud of it.
LG: Okay, let me break in now and say that we have been joined by another person and if you would say your name for our tape so that we could get ... say you name and a little bit about yourself since you've joined us a little bit later than some of the others.
CC: Okay, my name is Carlos Callejo and I'm a native El Pasoan, lived in Los Angeles for a long time, but am back ... been back 8 years ...
LG: .......
CC: ... I'm an artist ... I'm an artist ... I'm presently working on a mural for the county courthouse depicting the history of the area ... but not just depicting the history but Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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also shedding or putting particular emphasis on parts of history that are not normally covered by our regular means of education or regular curriculum ... that sort of thing. For instance, when people look at this history they'd normally ... automatically ... think it's Mexican-American ... Hispanic ... Chicano ... whatever ... I have to say all of them to be in a safe ... (laughter) ... group ... my political ... my political ... correct terminology here ... Anglo and Native American ... but people don't realize that also ... for instance ... the Syrian community had strong input in the development to the area ... the Jewish community ... the Asian community ... and once upon a time we even a Chinatown here ... people don't realize that. So that ... those sort of things also.
LG: It's obvious that you've done a lot of thinking about Texas history and Chicano history ... and we're talking about the exhibit ... we've been talking about the exhibit and one or two main points that our exhibit could communicate and ways that we could communicate them. So ... do you have some thoughts on those subjects?
CC: Well, I ... you know ... I'm not well-versed and well-read in Texas history in general ... but maybe El Pasoan history and not necessarily by the textbooks ... but more by personal experience ...
LG: That's what we want to hear.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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Carlos: ... I think that I could probably shed some light and ... but basically it's only my ... my own perception and my own views ... and how I look at the area and what significant things that's brought to my life and what it has instilled in me growing up in my formative years here and how I moved to Los Angeles ... I'm able to sort of bring it back and look at it from a different perspective and kind of even appreciate because I think that some of the morals and some of the values that I obtained in those early developmental years have carried on through my adult life and have shaped a lot of my personal views and political views and that sort of thing.
LG: That fits in very well with what we have been saying. I'm not sure if we've lost our continuity here but does anybody else have ... like to talk? You haven't talked about how we could make the kinds of points about family and roots and transmission of culture and values in a visual way. One of the things that we are planning for this exhibit is to have first person points of view ... in other words we're more interested in having your points of view on the wall that an institutional point of view. So ... this is the way it was ... we're more interested in your saying ... this is the way it was for me.
RN: I think one way that we could express that would be ... we talked about a video and having some of the comments ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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but also doing a mural. A large mural with a voice activator as you see in some of the museums in Washington D.C., and that type of thing. And with actual voices of some of the comments that you're picking up as you travel through the state. So there can be a person talking with a lot of sensitivity ... of a part or portion of his or her life so that that mural can mean ... have some meaning ...
QF: Come alive.
RN: ... come alive to the person ... hopefully the young student that is looking at the exhibit.
LG: As a ............ would you like to comment on that?
CC: Um. No ... it's a wonderful idea ... some sort of like what I'm also thinking for mine ... (laughter) ... some kind of explanation. No ... I just think it's a wonderful idea. I ... you know ... I sometimes ... I just finished coming back from Tyler, Texas, doing a mural in Tyler, Texas, East Texas, and it was sort of in a way refreshing also ...
..: Inspiring.
CC: ... Well ... I found it ... how ... I mean ... it just sort of slaps you in the face how Texas is so big and how ... you know ... we could be in the same state and we basically in two ends of the world in terms of ... in terms of values and in terms of what we see. And ... I mean ... when I was over there I had to sort of correct some of the perceptions Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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about El Paso ... (laughter) ...
QF: Did you get defend us?
CC: Oh ... very much so ... are you kidding?
LG: Does El Paso need defending?
CC: Uh ... I think so ... I think that being that we're geographically been located so far away ... maybe from Austin ... I don't think we have enough of a voice or enough of a lobbying force to obtain some of the things that maybe we could ... what I'm saying is that we sometimes get excluded in a lot of things. I remember back ... as growing up in high school ... being referred to "as culturally deprived" when they referred to ... when children coming from a poverty kind of background and all that kind of stuff and I always sort of ... I always remember saying "culturally deprived" ... what does that mean? ... "culturally" ... when in fact I think ...
JL: Whose culture?
CC: (laughter) Whose culture? (laughter) I think that we're just so overwhelmed ... I think of El Paso as being where it is at ... being that it's in the heart of 3 states ... 2 countries ... we are just so intertwined and we have a lot to offer the rest of the ... the rest of the state as well as the rest of the nation. People don't realize how many things have come ... have derived initially from El Paso ... but always made it someplace else because there was never a support system being Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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that we were economically deprived ... we had to leave in order to make it ... in order to ... But we have so much to offer and in a very unique way to offer. And I'm trying to say things in a nutshell because I don't want to take people's time away. But I know that that is what I kind of have in my later years have come to realize what tremendous capacity and tremendous things El Paso has.
RN: It's interesting when you mentioned culturally deprived because I think it's just the opposite. We're enriched by a tremendous culture and we have it. But we haven't been able to share it or expose it and this is where the Institute should come in. One of the saddest things that I felt was for someone in Washington D.C., at a seminar say ... You know, Rene, you're very, very lucky because you know who you are. You know where you came from. My family's been here ... you know ... 200 years and we've mixed so much that I don't know who I am ... I don't know if I'm still German ... I don't know if I'm French ... I don't know if I'm Norwegian ... I'm so melted in that I have no identity. And you are ... you're still ... very proudly call yourself a Mexican-American ... a Chicano ... whatever ... you know ... but that made me think ... Boy, this person is telling me something that they have lost because they tried so hard to mainstream and become part of this ...
..: Assimilate.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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RN: ... this American ... assimilate ... that they lost their own identity. And now they felt lost.
..: Uh-huh.
RN: And so I think it's good for our children to know that they do have a beautiful culture and they do come from someone. And share it with someone in the North who's very proud to be Italian ... or very proud to be French or German or all the others. And when we mix together we honor each other's cultures and habits and roots.
CC: And at the same time I think that it's very important to uphold some of the traditions that we've had that are beginning to get lost. It was very interesting when Rene mentioned about Washington ... I had the opportunity of participating at the Smithsonian Institute ... the Folklife Arts Festival last year ... and their theme was Borderlands ... Border Culture. And I was sharing a room with a gentleman from Juarez who's a guitar maker, born and raised in Juarez, he's a little bit older than me but we were ... and I grew up in Juarez also as a young kid ... being that both of my parents worked in El Paso ... and I was being raised by my grandmother for baby sitting purposes. But being able to experience the Juarez experience enabled me to ... when you talk also Juarez we're talking about when I was a kid ... I'm 43 years old ... we're talking 6 years old ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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RN: Doesn't look like it. (laughter)
CC: ... and I remember how ... how Juarez ... when I lived in Los Angeles when somebody referred to Juarez or to El Paso ... there was no distinction. And I think the distinction started happening then until after maybe the devaluation of the peso ... the stricter immigration laws ... that started defining the line more. But the conversation that we had was ... we were comparing certain experiences and somehow we started talking because he's being that he's a guitar maker about Tex-Mex music. Or Norteno music and how usually that Norteno music and the Tex-Mex ... sort of just a border kind of ... which is true ... it's a border ... but El Paso doesn't really ... just doesn't ... just fit just that ... we have a lot more. I remember when I was growing ... as a kid ... the metropolitan ... the metro-plex for culture was Juarez ... everybody went to Juarez ... you had your top-name ... you go right now to downtown ... the theaters that are being closed ... all the art deco ... all the ... I mean it was a very metropolitan type of a city ...
LG: When you ......
CC: ... all your ... your ... you know ... more your trios ... your voleros ... it had that ambiance ... it was more than just Norteno ... it was more than just ... and it was interesting to compare notes ... how ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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LG: When you say downtown ... downtown El Paso?
CC: Juarez.
QF: Downtown Juarez.
LG: Okay.
QF: And that's where all the movie stars would come. They didn't come to El Paso ... they came to Juarez. And that's where everybody went on weekends. Because these big movie stars from Hollywood would go to Juarez ... they wouldn't come to El Paso.
RN: You're absolutely right. It was the Las Vegas almost of Mexico. And they had beautiful nightclubs there ... beautiful nightclubs ... La Fiesta ... I remember ... you'd go in there ... seeing people like Nat King Cole ... they wouldn't come to El Paso ... they would go to Juarez. The population was there and the night-life was there and so it did have that metropolitan feeling of a large city. And you're absolutely right Norteno music was more of a ... from the south of Texas ... from the cultural habits of the Germans ... the Germans that came to Texas with their polka music and the Mexicans combined and that's where your Norteno music ... it's a polka ... it's a Mexican polka is what it is.
..: Uh-huh.
LG: Do you want to add something to .....
JL: That is true what they're saying about Juarez. I remember Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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in my teens we used to go to Juarez ... everybody would go to Juarez. Juarez ...... wasn't nothing but nightclubs ... Chinese Palace ... the Kentucky Bar ... you name it ... and you'd see most of the movie stars ... like Gilbert Roland ... he died ... he was from Juarez ... and ...
LG: I remember my mother talking about Gilbert Roland. (laughter)
JL: He was from Juarez. He started selling paper here in El Paso ... newspapers ... and that was the entertainment of the city of El Paso and all the Valley. You'd go to Juarez nightclubbing and you would go ... when you'd go out there ... I mean ... people were dressed real ... you know ... unique.
QF: All dressed up.
RN: You noticed it.
CC: And see I think it's important to realize that because we've lost that. And we lost that being it's in another country of course they have to go with the economic situation ... of course ... and I could dare say that over half of the population of Juarez have not been there more than 20 years. And most of the population ... Juarez actually ....... El Paso or in Los Angeles ... and it's ... you see the turmoil ... the infrastructure that's happening in Juarez it's ... there's not that committment of bettering or being involved in your infrastructure ... your political ... because most of the people Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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come in and ... you know ... if you're not born there ... or you don't feel part of ... so you don't get involved ... so it's shaped ... I mean ... the dynamics ... those are some of the things that I'm saying that are being lost ... now it doesn't have that ... but I think that's important to realize that ... that was there.
LG: We're almost to the end of our first hour here and when we come to the end of the first hour we're going to have a little break so you can fill up your coffee cups or whatever ... and then we'll come back and we'll talk some more. And I think since I have the privilege of having 4 El Pasoans here that maybe we should talk more specifically about El Paso and how we could make El Paso come alive ... a part of Texas in this exhibit ... what is the essence of El Paso.
RN: That's an interesting statement. Because will El Paso have an exhibit there in San Antonio? Will there be a portion devoted to El Paso?
LG: I don't know. We haven't really decided and we haven't done our exhibits regionally. But if El Paso is as unique as you're saying it is then that's ... somehow we need to deal with that. And I'm not sure how but the more we talk about it the more we can find out how that will work.
RN: I think it's extremely important because in my travels around Texas and I'm very fortunate that in the last 6 years Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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that I've been able to travel a whole lot ... being a member of the State Board ... is that I find many, many people that live in San Antonio their roots came from El Paso. Many people in Houston their roots came from El Paso. This was kind of a gateway ... you know ... that they came across from Mexico as my mom and dad did ... and then we were born here ... but ...
LG: And El Paso is the oldest community ...
..: Yeah, the oldest.
CC: And that also applies to Los Angeles. I mean if you ... to this date ... you have a bigger ... a bigger ... instead of ... and in terms of people ... you have a bigger Bowie reunion in Los Angeles ...
QF: You bet. (laughter)
CC: ... a Bowie reunion in Los Angeles than you do here in El Paso.
LG: Bowie is?
(mixed conversation ... one of the high schools ... )
LG: Okay ... for the record let's get that on tape.
QF: For the record ... I heard that ... it was built ... and I can't remember when it was built ... okay? ... but it was built I am told by our ... whoever makes those decisions ... the school board ... or the city fathers ... but it was built in South El Paso for Mexicans.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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..: Uh-huh.
QF: Didn't say just ... let's build this school ... it was built for Mexicans.
LG: This was back in the '30s or ? older than that?
QF: Many, many years ....
(mixed conversation)
LG: Older than that? I don't know.
JL: Yeah ... they had El Paso High which was the ...
..: ..........
JL: ... the West Side you see ... and the ...
LG: The west population ... the west side is what?
JL: Whites would be up there.
QF: That was the Anglo school and this was the Mexican school.
JL: And the Mexican school was here.
CC: And not as far back as the '30s ... I would say ... back to '67 there's still some laws ... even in Clint ... in Santa ......... ... I'm not sure of Santa .......... ... but some of the old Jim Crow kind of laws in terms of education existed after the '60s ... after ... up to the '60s ...
RN: What you have ... the reality of what you have ... that people need to be aware of this ... is that you communities like Clint where 80 - 90 percent of the student population is Mexican-American ... but the workforce works for the patron who happens to be non-Hispanic ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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..: Uh-huh.
RN: ... and those are the ones that are elected to the school board because if I work for you and I'm told to vote for you ... I'm going to vote for you ... because I don't want to lose my job.
LG: Can you explain for the record where Clint is?
RN: Clint is a community in the southern ... eastern ...
CC: Eastern ... eastern part.
RN: ... eastern part of the county.
LG: Okay.
RN: And it's a farm community and maybe this gentleman can ... Joe can speak more about it.
JL: It's a city of itself ... incorporated itself ... 4 miles from the city of Socorro.
LG: Okay.
JL: You have ... ..... have here is El Paso ... and then El Paso ... the citizens of El Paso would ........... right here ...
LG: Uh-huh.
JL: ... and keep going ... Yslero was a town in itself and then Socorro ... Santa ........... ... Clint ...
..: .......
JL: ... .......... and those were the Valley ... what used to call the Lower Valley ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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LG: Uh-huh.
JL: ... but El Paso keeps growing and it extended itself ... it went out to the city limits of Socorro. Socorro was incorporated in 1800 and it was dorm and it was revived in 19 ... 19 ... let's see ... it was 1986 ... revived again and we become a city of our own ... ourself ... because of the county was in control see? ... you probably heard about the colonias out here ... all over the world ... okay ... what the farmers were doing selling the property to developers because they couldn't afford to have any more farming ... it's too expensive and you can't get anybody to support it ... so they developed these sub-divisions and people that were poor went over and bought out there and what happened ... the county didn't have any control over those sub-divisions and that's why they became colonias ... because when these developers came in the county didn't have any force them to put any water ... any sewer ... or anything ... they just said ... open land ... buy it ... and that's it. And that's what creates colonias.
LG: Uh. Okay. I think people are beginning to break up and if we're at a good stopping point here ... let's have a little break and then we'll come back in a short while and continue on.
..: Sounds good.
..: Sounds great.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso
INTERVIEW WITH: Queta Fierro, Rene Nunez,
Joe Ledesma, Carlos Callejo (Tape 2)
DATE: 21 May 1994
PLACE: University of Texas at El Paso
INTERVIEWERS: Laurie Gudzikowski
LG: ... this is tape 2, El Paso, on May the 21st, 1994.
QF: Okay ... thank you ... I'm Queta. And I'm sorry I'm going to have to leave. But I did want to just make one small point ... that I know this Tejano name is out and is very much used and I can certainly understand where we are from Texas ... we were born in Texas so we're Texans. And translated ... Tejanos. Which is fine. Somehow I kind of think that El Paso ... we're a little bit more traditional ... you know ... we're ... I really don't know how to express it ... how to explain it ... other than ... I never even thought about it ... being a Tejana ... although I am ... because of the fact that I was born here. But I kind of think that there's values and traditions that is a little bit more sophisticated than that ... to me ... being from El Paso. So with that I'll leave you.
LG: Thank you.
QF: Whatever you can make out of that.
LG: Thank you. I really appreciate your taking time on this Saturday to join us.
QF: It was my pleasure. Thank you.
LG: We're on the second part of our community meeting in El Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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Paso, it's the 21st of May and once again I'm going to ask the people to go around and say their names at the beginning of this tape so that we will have everybody's voice identified.
RN: My name is Rene Nunez.
CC: Carlos Callejo.
JL: Joe Ledesma.
LG: Thank you. And at the end of our last session we decided that we would focus some on El Paso since we have native El Pasoans here and talk about what makes El Paso unique and how we could put that into our exhibit. You want to start?
RN: Let me tell you that Mrs. ... Queta had to leave to go take care of an elderly member of her family and as we talked about culture and habits and as you grow you understand that that's part of your responsibility ... to take care of your elderly and so she wanted to apologize for leaving.
LG: We were fortunate to have ... to have her this morning ... she's a very articulate lady.
RN: Yes she is.
LG: Would someone like to start out our discussion?
RN: Okay. What was the question again? (laughter)
LG: Talk about El Paso in particular ... what makes El Paso unique ... and how we might display that uniqueness as part of our exhibit. You've travelled a lot ...
RN: Well ... I think one of the ... obviously some of the things Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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that make El Paso different from any other communities is its geographical position on the North American continent. And that is a high desert ... dry climate ... and because it's that ... in the beauty of its mountain and its desert it is very different than many, many other parts of Texas and the United States. And so it has developed its own identity and it's very interesting when I meet people from the East Coast or the Northwest and they love it here. And they think it's beautiful you know. And so different. Where when you're born and raised here and kind of grown up here all your life and yet when you go to someplace else and it's green and it's beautiful and all that ... you don't appreciate the desert and the mountain and the climate ... you know. So it is very different from just that standpoint and so you develop a different type of mentality, I think, towards our city.
LG: I've noticed that El Paso is one of those places that has a real strong tie on its native children ... the people ... the El Paso people I know in San Antonio ... who live in San Antonio ... now all aim to come back to El Paso.
RN: Well, there is a saying ... That you can take me out of El Paso, but you will never take the El Paso out of me. ... you know. And that's very true. I left for approximately 10 years and lived in Southern California and during those 10 years I can promise you that I was here at least 3 or 4 times a year Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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because of my roots and an event or a happening ... and I had to come. And after I found myself doing that more than 4 times a year I said ... You know what? I really want to raise my family where I was raised ... in El Paso. And I moved back.
CC: It's all similar.
JL: Well ... like ............ was saying ... he said he left for 10 years ... I did the same thing ... I left for 7 years ... I went to the service and I lived in California for 3 years and a half ... ........ still El Paso ......... El Paso ... so I came back and I had very good opportunities in California. And when I got married I told my wife ... Why don't we to California? I have good opportunities. And she said ... Well, why don't we stay here and see what kind of opportunities we get here? And fortunately I ended up with a civil service job. My wife ended up with a civil service job and we lived here ... we raised 3 children here ... which I love El Paso ... because I was born and raised here. And like you said ... you can't take El Paso from you ... because it's very unique ... the weather is beautiful here. You can see the snow in the wintertime ... you can go out in the summertime it's beautiful and lot of people have been telling me when they come out here to El Paso ... You have a view here ... you something unique ... these beautiful mountains. That's what the people come out here ... we don't have any mountains out there. You can go to the desert and Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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just walk out there ... especially when it's in the rainy season ... you see those wildflowers out of here ... beautiful. You go out to the desert during the rainy season you can see out there the most beautiful desert gardens out there ... wildflowers all over. And it's something very unique. Not only that ... Juan ........... came through here ... 1600s ... and he left some real, very unique things out here ... like the 3 missions ... the Mission Ysleta, the Mission Socorro, the Mission San Elizario ... and this is what we are trying to bring out ... like San Antonio ... trying to bring the tourists out here to El Paso. I belong to the Mission Trail Association and the renovations of the missions and what we're trying to do ... it's get the people out here to El Paso and see the Valley ... what the Valley means to everybody ... this is where we have all the ... cotton fields ... and where you ... all the products that come in here ... corn ... whatever you want to you can plant out here and it grows you know. Someplaces you have to ship it and here you can have everything you want to ... all your vegetables and your fruits can be right here. So we have a very unique ... and we have 3 countries in here ... we have Mexico ... El Paso, Texas ... and New Mexico ... 3 corners ... ..... likely what it is in here. And it's not very far to go to Mexico ... you want to go to Mexico you just walk across the bridge and you're in Mexico ... another country. Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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You want to go to another state ... you go to New Mexico ...
you just drive about 2 miles ... a mile from here ... and it's
just like ... So it's very unique about El Paso.
LG: Yes. Carlos, what pushed you away from El Paso and what
drew you back to El Paso?
CC: Well, these are all very similar stories. So I'll try
to change it a little bit ...
LG: Okay.
CC: ... and probably put a little bit more of a spiritual
significance to the whole situation. And at the risk of
sounding a little vague and maybe a little romantic ... a little
idealistic ... let me say that I think ... you know awhile back
I was reading how ... about how the different tribes sort of
manifest their religion or their spirituality ... how they sort
of manifest on different levels ... I was reading how they
compare to the jungle tribes compared to the desert tribes ...
and usually desert tribes ... when you see the horizon ... tends
to be a little bit more spiritual. So ... I mean ... I don't
know what ... has any connection but I guess El Paso being that
it is dry you can see horizons forever and see wonderful sunsets
and wonderful cloud formations and all that kind of stuff.
Wonderful place for an artist. And I think that what Mr. ...
Rene mentioned earlier ... how we tend to take those things
for granted ... and it's very true because when I left I went
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to California and see all this ....... green ... like ... or East Texas ... where you come from ... very green ... very ... you know ... you kind of envy that ... you want that ... that's supposed to be the thing. And you kind of take your desert for granted and you kind of lose ... It wasn't until recent that I started seeing what beauty the desert has. And what spirituality it has. I think for me ... like I said earlier ... just at the risk of sounding idealistic ... I think that what brought me back was a spiritual connection. When I left El Paso I left at a very early age speaking nothing but Spanish being that I was raised by my grandmother ... my parents were both working in El Paso. And even if I was ... and I did live in ... when I lived in El Paso in Segundo....... everybody spoke Spanish so what's ... so when I left I left speaking only Spanish and went to an enviornment in East Los Angeles where predominately ... the school was predominately made by Mexican-Americans ... but nevertheless everybody spoke English and it was kind of ... I saw that for the most part that people who spoke Spanish got ridiculed. So being a kid you kind of adapt to survival skills right away ... which I was very successful ... and so much successful that I became involved ... kind of what you would say the "in crowd." But part of being in the "in crowd" was ... part of doing that was sort of rejecting your Mexican heritage. I used to catch myself Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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sort of fighting ... for instance ... we would form alliances
and go fight The .......... Flats ... a gang in East Los Angeles
... it's predominately made my Mexican nationals. And I used
to catch myself ... I used to say to myself ... Like why I am
...? ... they never done anything to me personally ... and the
thing is that it was very frustrating and very confusing for
me because I knew that we were fighting mostly because what
they represented ... we used to call them ... like ...
.............. ... TJs ... and to me anything ... the only
experience that I knew about being a Mexicano was my experience
with my grandmother in Juarez which showed me nothing but love.
I mean ... I was about the most spoilest grandchild in that
household. My grandparents in Juarez had a ................
... a ................. is like a house where you rent to other
people ... there's a patio in the middle with a garden and all
around ... so they used to rent ... and some family members
would be living ... so there was lot of family members ... lot
of cousins ... I grew up with a lot of cousins ... lot of tios
and tias ... and that kind of sort of thing ... but I was the
most spoilest grandchild. My mom used to even get mad at my
grandmother for giving in and making special dinners for me
while the others ... the rest of the family had a different
dinner. So to me catching myself doing these things in Los
Angeles was like fighting against my grandmother ... that showed
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me nothing but love. So it was a very turmoil situation for
a young kid. But in a way it made me put things in my own
pespective and see how in some ways I was being indoctrinated
to reject that ... .... whatever ... to whether it be the mass
media ... to the educational system ... whatever
institutionalized form that ... And I recall ... there's always
... besides all kinds of images that I've been through all
through my life ... being I'm a visual person being an artist
... there's always 3 very dominant images that always come in
dreams or in the form ... and it's hard to describe ... but
... and that is my grandmother's face ... the silhouette of
the Sierra ............. ... which is one our mountains peaks
around the Juarez area ... we have Franklin on this side and
Sierra ............ on the other ... and of 18 centavos ...
which at that was a lot of money ... I mean I don't know what
... 18 centavos probably one point something of a penny ...
(laughter) ... but it was a lot of money back then. Those 3
images played a very significant role throughout my life.
Anyway ... but ... what I'm getting at is basically is that
... I can't separate ... and in some ways I feel that what brought
me back was a spiritual connection. And I'm kind of very proud
to say that in a way ... during ... living around the times
when the Chicano ... the height of the Chicano movement or the
beginning of the Chicano movement when things were going on
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that really nobody had to introduce me to that ... that it was
already there for me. And it was attributed ... basically to
the Juarez - El Paso area. I don't think ... I'm talking too
much ... but basically it just gives it a sort of spiritual
connection.
LG: Rene, would you like to talk on what you pushed you away
from El Paso ... what drew you back? If there was a .......
RN: Well ... I think ... yeah ... you heard 3 different stories
of 3 different people that left and I don't know about the other
2 ... but I left because job opportunities were better outside
of El Paso than they were here. Even though I had a degree.
I had a degree that was a BA degree and yet it was difficult
to get an opportunity to get the job that I thought I was worthy
of and even in education as a school teacher, the pay and the
opportunities were better in California, so I left. But Carlos
has expressed it with a lot of emotion there and it's beautiful.
It's that ... that feeling ... that spiritual feeling that's
very difficult to describe and I think he did a good job on
it. And I was always ... that magnet was always drawing me
back and even though material-wise my life was better in
California ... nicer house ... nicer cars ... nicer clothes
... you know ... better restuarants ... all those things ...
but they didn't mean ... they didn't have any meaning to me
as life here in El Paso. I can remember my mother struggling
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to raise 4 kids ... our father was killed when I was 8 months in her womb and so I didn't get to enjoy having a father. My mother was a single parent before it was popular and raised 4 kids and in her struggle she would always go to Juarez every Saturday and I would go with her ... and we used to take the bus ... the tranvia ... and we would go to the market and she would buy her vegetables and her tortillas and her meat or her chicken ... and I would get a haircut and ... you know ... it was a whole morning and sometimes into the afternoon ... it was a whole ordeal ... but that's how she made things stretch. And during the week there was more potatoes and vegetable than there was always meat ... very little meat ... and there was always beans and tortillas. And I missed that when I was in California ... I missed the food ... and I missed ... you know you can go to a Mexican restuarant but it's not the same as mom's ... and today I still have my favorite restuarants here in El Paso ... the greasy spoon places ... (laughter) ... where they make caldo like my mother used to make it you know. And I can't find that any place else ... and that's what keeps me here ... is those spiritual parts of my life that mean more than the material things.
LG: Do you think that the same things perhaps ....... today that there is still this lack of economic opportunity that pushes people away and yet their soul resides in El Paso?Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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JL: Yes, I think so. I'll give you a good example ... my son works with Texas Commerce Bank ... he worked here in El Paso and he was struggling a lot doing some work for other banks all over ... Texas Commerce Banks all over Texas ... and he got an opportunity to go to San Antonio ... he's working in San Antonio as a manager for a Bank ... which he couldn't get those opportunities here. He was ... and he said to me one day ... said ... Dad, what do you think if I move to San Antonio? I'll be getting more money. I said ... Son, it's up to you ... you're old enough. You have to make your own decisions the way I made them when I was a kid. He's living out there ... I mean ... he's comfortable ... but he's still ... every chance he comes ... he can do ... he's out here. Like for Mother's Day he was out here for a day ... for Mother's Day ... 2 days ... but he comes out here. And he loves El Paso but says I can't get the money that I get out there. Like ................. was saying ... sometimes you leave because the opportunities are out there but you still ... you have that magnet that pushes you back. When I left here I left for the same reason because the opportunities weren't here. And then one of my brothers was ... my cousin ... I grew up with my cousin and call him brother ... came back in 1952 and I stayed here because I didn't know what to do here ... the jobs ... at that time I was earning $1.25 in California ... an hour ... came Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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out here and was earning $35.00 ... working for the American Furniture Company ... I was display ... decorator window ... and I was doing that work here at American Furniture ... and making $35.00 when I was doing a $1.25 in California ... there was no money out here. So this friend of mine that was working at the American Furniture he told me ... he said ... Look there's a place out here who is looking for a man that knows how to do some decorations ... like put venetian blinds and hanging curtains ... he said ... I'm going to recommend you ... it's on Montano Street ... he said ... You go out there and this guy's paying a $1 something an hour ... I'll recommend you. So I went over and I was very happy ... I said I'm going to go over and be interviewed ... he already had my name and everything ... so I walked in and talked to the man and he asked me ... Are you from Juarez? I said ... No, I'm from El Paso ... from here. He said ... What is your classification for the services? 1-A. He said ... I'm sorry, but I cannot hire you. I cannot train you and hire you because if I train you probably you'll be called to the services tomorrow. And that really hurt me when he told me that ... you know. So I walked out very sad. Said ... Well, my best choice to me is to volunteer to the service and get it over with. So I was coming back to work ... it was at noon ... and I stopped at the recruiting Naval station out on Stanton Street and I walked in ... I said Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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... You need any volunteers for the Navy? He said ... Yeah.
... said ... Come in. Walk in ... take a test ... if you pass
it, you go. I went in there, took the test, and I went to the
Navy because I was refused a job. And that really hurt me and
I'll never forget that you know. When I came back from the
service I made intentions of going to this place ... this man
... and I was going to go tell him ... Sir, you refused me a
job one time ... but I came here during the Korean ... that
was during the Korean Conflict ... I ........... ... I went
into ............. countries so you could keep your store.
But when I went back the store was closed ... he probably went
broke or something ... but that really hurts me. (laughter)
LG: Carlos, you're a visual person, we're getting a lot of
very complicated kinds of thoughts here ... is there any way
that you could suggest that these could be made into visual
kinds of statements? Because a musuem exhibit is a visual
thing. It is not a word thing ... it is a visual thing. Maybe
you have some suggestions for us.
CC: Well, I'm sure that there's a lot of ways to portraying
... to portraying our area ... I'm not speaking for the rest
of Texas ... Texas is very big ... but for our area of the museum
... I would ... when I participated at the Smithsonian Folk
Life Arts Festival ... they did a wonderful job ... I was very
much surprised being that most of the crafts people or the people
Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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that put up the displays were not from the region. But the photography and the ambiance and they made the mercado scene just like the Mercado ........... ... I mean it was distinct from the Mercado ........... compared to the Mercado Juarez ... that's a good resource.
LG: Uh-huh.
CC: And I think that they still have all the ........... and all the stuff that they did. That's a possibility. But I would just do ... try to portray a certain scene in the Mercado Juarez. And I think it's very important ... I know you're interested in El Paso ... but you have to ... I mean when you portray El Paso it's very important that you portray both.
LG: Uh-huh.
CC: Because ...
LG: It's obvious.
CC: ... it's one and the same for that experience. So maybe the Mercado Juarez ... maybe the El Paso High ... maybe ... you know ... but showing the ambiance. Maybe Stanton Street ... Stanton Street is very like El Paso Street ... where the shopping takes place ... where it brings a lot of memories to all of us ... probably for shopping with our grandmothers or our parents around that area. You know ... the theaters where we used to go and stuff like that. So showing something ... a little bit of that ... I would just sort of make this place Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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.... use some photographs ... based on those photographs sort of try to do some ............. to try to simulate the atmosphere ... some of the pile that was ... some of the things that are hanging outside ... very lively ... very colorful ... you know ... that kind of thing ... I mean ... something to that effect. Maybe have some sounds ... similar to the ...
LG: Like what sounds?
CC: Well, passing cars ... I don't know ... kids selling papers ... I don't know ... that would take some doing ... in terms of those ... some research.
JL: Excuse me, this is what the Mission Trail Association is trying to do.
LG: Uh-huh.
JL: Bring the ... if you noticed El Paso Street ... they put those lights in there ...
LG: Uh-huh.
JL: ... beautiful lights with the hanging flowers and the Mission Trail Association ... that's what they're trying to do ... attract the tourists to come to El Paso and go to the Mission Trail to the old Missions. And what we have in the Mission Trail we have for the quality historical district and part of El Paso is the historical district ... El Paso Street and some of the streets out here. And we have the district ... the City of Socorro has a historical district ... and San Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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Elizario has a district too ... and El Paso has a district ... from historical district from Ysleta to Socorro and then from Socorro to San Elizario. And this is where we're trying to get back into what it was before and get the tourists. They have the trolleys that are running from here to Juarez to the Mission de Guadalupe ............ ... and they go to the Mission de Guadalupe which is one of the oldest ones and they go to the ones in ........... and back to ................ My wife and I are docents at the Socorro Mission and we show the kids the culture what's up to this Mission ... we have some people from Spain ... from Germany ... to come to see those Missions. We had 120 kids ... what was it? Wednesday? ... at the Socorro Mission.
..: Wow!
JL: And we have ... they cancelled another one from ... what school was it up here? one from El Paso. ... I can't remember the school. Anyway ... and we are the owners of the first Mission of Socorro. 1984 a Dr. Gerald, an archeologist from U Tech ... asked us permission if he could excavate our land because they knew that it a mission there ... during the flooding areas in the 1600s ... so we let him and they found the foundations of the first Mission of Socorro.
..: .....
LG: Wonderful.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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JL: And the artifacts that were ... that they found in there ... they are in the ... do you ever go to the Walter? .......... see ........... on the ........ Road ... you'll see 'em out there. And now the Texas Historical Society is trying to buy part of our land to make a museum ... a national museum ... and make a mission like the old mission ... the one that was ...
LG: Reconstructed.
JL: ... reconstructed ... like you have in San Antonio. And ... so the tourists will go out there. It's something that we're trying to get ... it's a long-range ....
LG: Sure is.
JL: ... project ... but it's going to work. Probably I won't see it ... but ... you know ...
LG: You're planting the seeds that your children will perhaps see it.
..: .......
JL: So we have a histocial site that's very important. ......... National Historical Society.
LG: You must be very proud of that.
JL: Thank you very much..
LG: One of the ... I think that I'm talking to 3 people who are both literate in Spanish as well as in English ... something that always comes up when you are discussing this exhibit is Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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bilingual ... should this be ... should this exhibit be bilingual in Spanish ... if so ... should it be entirely bilingual ... or ........ bilingual ... what type of Spanish do we ... what is the level of Spanish that the interpretation should be in ... are we talking about classical Spanish ... Tex-Mex ... what are we talking about? So how about issues of bilingualism?
RN: While we were on break Carlos suggested that if we're going to use the latest technology that we have the disc where you could punch ... you know ... the scene that you wanted ... so that could go to the scenery that you wanted but also the language you wanted. And I think that would be very important. Whether you wanted it in Spanish ... whether you wanted it in English ... whether you wanted it in Mex-Tex ... which is basically a combination ...
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
LG: ... Rene is talking about the issue of bilingualism and how we can do this in our exhibit.
RN: I think the fact is that most of us that were from Mexican descent spoke Spanish at home first and we didn't speak a correct Spanish because maybe our parents didn't know correct Spanish. My mother was from Jimenez, Chihuahua, my father was from Durango, and they came over as ... in their single digits ... as young, young kids and so ... all they learned and all they Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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spoke was Spanish ... and they didn't have an opportunity to go to school so ... my household ... in our household we spoke ... everything was in Spanish. It was not til I went to school that I started learning English. But any time ... even to this day ... and I'm 50 plus ... when I find myself short of a word that I can't pronounce or I can't say in English I revert to Spanish. And especially when I get around some of my old friends ... high school friends that I went to school with. It's a combination ... it's a beautiful combination. And you ... without any interruptions will speak both languages. And the same holds true now because I've lived in the U.S. all my life ... when I visit in Mexico and I speak Spanish ... I find myself short of a word in Spanish now because I've mainstream so much that I revert to the English. And so I'll be giving a speech in Chihuahua or someplace like that and I'll have to say the word in English because I have forgotten my Spanish and I'm ashamed of that but it's the lack of practice. It's the lack of speaking the language. And so ... I would have all 3 on this display.
LG: Okay. Is this issue ... is the tradition of bilingualism something that you are passing on to your children?
JL: Yes. Well ... what we're doing here in El Paso ... we talk with ... when we speak the language we have this slang language ... we don't do the correct Spanish you know ... and Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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like he said ... we always mix either English or Spanish ... when we have conversation with friends ... I mean we say ... We got a .............. how pretty. ... we mix you know. And this is the way it is. And I think if you're going to have something ...
CC: ..... baby-doll.
JL: ... you're going to have in both languages ... you want to hear in Spanish or English ... I mean ... you punch it and there .... I think in San Antonio you have those in the Missions ... don't you?
LG: I'm not sure.
JL: I think I saw them in there. You have a tape recorder ... if you want to hear it in Spanish ... you put a quarter and you hear the tape of the Missions and you have it in both languages.
LG: Now tape is relatively easy. What about written? Should ... is written the same thing? Do you want written completely bilingual too? Tapes one thing ... and there will be both. What do you all think? Is written the same thing?
CC: Oh, I think ... just logistically ... I don't know ... I think ... maybe on the written ... depending on what resources are available ... but I think it would be fine just as English and Spanish. I don't know how you would ... (laughter) ... your Spanglish ... (laughter) ... in a written form. Yeah, Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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that would be difficult.
LG: Any other thoughts about bilingualism and ... is this an important part of what makes you ... what forms your identity? is this ... essential?
RN: I think it's an extremely important issue ... more than any of us can understand. Because in a global society that we are in and a global economic future that we have ... obviously for those that can speak both language and dominate them ... you know ... to perfection ... they're going to have an advantage over many others that don't have that ability. I see us not only working with Mexico but Central America and South America ... I see Canadians coming to El Paso ... I see New Yorkans from the Wall Street coming to El Paso ... and if they have the ability to speak Spanish and to write it and to read it and to do business in both languages ... what an advantage. And we need our youth to understand that. And we need to make sure that our educators understand the importance of both languages. What an advantage to both people.
JL: He's right about it. With the Free Trade ... bilingual is a very important issue right now ... especially here in El Paso ... is we have some factories out here ... maquiladoras ... in Juarez ... and here people come in from Mexico and if you're not a bilingual ... you're lost. If you're bilingual you can communicate with the people from Mexico and with the Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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American people. And this is one thing that we should be very proud that we are bilingual ... can speak both languages. I feel very proud and my kids went through .............. school ... but they still ... the Spanish speaking ... we never took it away from them. Because they need it. And my son that is working in San Antonio said ... The other day, Daddy, a man came over from Mexico City and he wanted to make a big deposit of money ... he said ... and he wanted to talk to a man that'd speak Spanish and they thought that he wasn't Mexican because of his light complexion and his name Ledesma ... they thought he was a Dutchman ... and they went over and said ... Well, we have the manager here, he's ... So he talked to the manager ... Hablo Espanol, Senor? ... (laughter) So he was very happy you know. He said ... Daddy, good thing that we never lost our language ... he said ... because now is the time we need it a lot. And this younger generation is going to need it. And I hope that we don't lose it.
LG: In general do you see the younger generation growing up bilingual? Yes? No?
CC: I ... there is some loss ... there is some loss ... and that's why we need to make a strong effort to try to bring that back. Do you want us to comment a little bit just on the bilingual ... that it is ... I mean ... we've heard of lot of reasons why it should. I think that also it's essential for Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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the viewer ... the viewer for this exhibition to properly interpret the soul of certain things. And in order to do that you just can't do it by just English alone. It's ... even ... it's ... in order for them to properly ... ....... saying that ... properly interpret a certain feeling ... you have to do it in the language. There's some things that you just cannot interpret ... you lose the ...
LG: Don't translate.
CC: ... you lose the soul of it. So ... yeah ... it is very important. And it's important that some stuff in the English version is kept in order to properly get the feeling.
RN: Carlos is absolutely right. There's many dichos ... dichos in Spanish and ............. in Spanish ... that obviously you would lose the emotional meaning if you tried to translate them.
JL: Uh-huh.
RN: And so those are important parts of our culture and our children need to understand the true meaning behind each ..............
CC: Yes. And it's very important to realize that some of these dichos ... some of these sayings ... some of these traditions ... for the rest of Texas to realize that just because they are in Spanish it doesn't necessarily mean that they come from Mexico. That they're very much in the Americana. That some Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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of these experiences that we're talking about is very much U.S.
LG: Give me an example.
CC: Oh ... I mean ... give you an example of things ...
LG: If you can.
CC: Let's for instance just what of I do in terms of muralism ... the contemporary mural movement comes from the United States. Sure the roots might be from Mexico ... from your masters ............ or Orozco and stuff. But those were individuals doing a certain ... approaching that art form in a very ... as an individual ... whereas here we get the community involved and basically it reflects the community and you get the participants ... reflects the aspirations ... the struggles ... the needs ... the whole ... it's the community. But it comes from the United States. These are not just the folkloric art or poor art or for poor people or protest art or that comes from ... derives from ... it's very much integrated to our way of life in the United States here.
LG: It's contemporary.
CC: This is very much Americana. And people need to realize that ... that it is not ... you know ... that this is a culture that has nourished ... has flourished ... even ... probably even some parts derived directly from here because ... you know ... this ... all this land was once upon a time part of Mexico.
LG: Sure.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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CC: That is very much integrated in ... in the American culture ... and very much Americana.
LG: You started out by saying there were dichos that had ... that were directly from American experience ... can you give me an example of that? Any of .......?
CC: Oh ... oh, God ... ........ dichos. I just thought of one but I'd better not. (laughter)
LG: Yeah ... that's right ... you signed a release. (laughter)
CC: I would have to think ....
LG: You can't think of an example? Okay. If you do ... if one comes to you while we're talking ... because I'd love to hear it. I'd like to know .......
CC: There's a chapter ....
JL: Give me the question again.
CC: Any dichos or ............ ?
JL: Dichos.
CC: ... that comes ...
LG: That comes from the American experience that are not simply something that is folkloric and Mexican.
(mixed conversation)
..: Yeah .............
RN: I think one of the ones and it's a very short phrase ... but that my mother instilled in me and I try to use it on my kids and it comes from living here but it's a dicho that she Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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learned probably and that is ... ..............
..: That's it exactly.
RN: And that for every father and every mother is something that you just tell your kids all the time and that is ... and it's an American saying too ... Tell me who you run around with and I'll tell you are. You know ... it's because we are who we run around with.
..: Right.
RN: And the kind of friendships that we surround ourself with ...
CC: Birds of a feather.
RN: Exactly. And so it's very important Spanish because as a Mexican family integrates into the U.S. culture and you have the friendships they're very concerned as parents that their children are being guided in the right way.
JL: That's a good ...
LG: Do you have another example?
JL: No ... that's a good example though that he was saying ... you know ... what you lose you know ... My sister and my brother-in-law they moved to Colorado ... to Denver ... and their children were raised out there and it's very ashamed you know that they lost something. They came over ... they couldn't talk to my father because my father doesn't speak very well English ... and they could only speak one language English when Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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they came here ... they still ... the only thing that they can tell my father ... my ... one of my ... one of the kids ... .............. ... ............. ... and you lost the thing you know ... and it's ashamed that those kids you know ... they lost their culture ... their Spanish ... and I told my sister ... she's my half-sister ... I said ... Look ... You raise your kids your own way. I said ... Why? ... I said ... You didn't let them know that their language ... let them run away from it. And it's your fault. Which ... you know ... now you need a bilingual ... The oldest one she said ... Well, I'm going to make a decision and take some Spanish. And she went to college in some little town out of Denver ... and took Spanish lessons. And then she took a vacation ... her and her husband to Mexico ... all over. And she was thrilled to death you know ... because she knew how to speak Spanish ... you know. (laughter) But sometimes we lose something ...
LG: Sure.
JL: ... and it's not ... it's us ourselves that we don't show our children you know.
LG: Well, we don't have very much longer so can I ask ... I would like to kind of go around and say ... Are there any specific events or topics or individuals that you feel should be included in an exhibit to make it an exhibit that would talk about the Tejano experience particularly from an El Paso point of view?Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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RN: People?
LG: People or events or topics.
CC: One of the things ... I'm not sure that somebody has brought ... probably at some point ... have mentioned certain things that should be recognizable ... would be ... for instance ... I know that we mentioned the .............. Expedition ...
LG: Uh-huh.
CC: ... uh ... about ..... known fact that the first Thanksgiving happened in this region ... which is probably been already said ... right? ... ........... ... 50 years ... 50 years before Plymouth Rock ...
LG: I don't want you thinking about what has already been said ... I want you thinking of really important ...
CC: So that's for our area, I think, is very important ... also the first European ... well ... the first play that ever occurred in this hemisphere ... or this northern hemisphere ... happened in ... from this area ... which was also with the ............... Expedition ... Cabeza de Vaca of course ... but that probably pertains to the rest of Texas also because he came up through the Rio Grande from ...
LG: Right.
CC: ... from the south. So these are some ... some historical information ....
LG: How about you Joe?Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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JL: I think that the Spanish language came over when .......... came here with the Indians and this is where the Spaniards and the Indians come ... and that's the language of the Spanish king ... what is ... ....... come out here ... wasn't it? If I'm right or wrong I think this is where the Spanish people ... the Mexican-Americans came over ... and then the people from Mexico ... and the Indians ... ........ of the Indians got together and this is ........ Spanish ... this is where the history of the Spanish people here ... Mexico and the U.S. and the border is why we are Mexican-American ... because of the mixture of the cultures ...
LG: Rene?
RN: It's important that we do look at the past and the important events of the past. Such as was just spoken about. But also I think what's important is that we try to take different parts of our decades and the struggles of the '30s and the '40s and how the Mexican people that came to the United States because they chose what they interpret as a better way of life ... economics was the driving force. I would say in 90% of the cases economics was the driving force. It still is today. It's where the migrant worker ... for many, many people who come to the North because there's opportunities ... opportunities to ... to enhance their life. And so that struggle, I think, needs to be part of our history and part Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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of our way of life and how because our parents were the risk-takers that they were ... regardless of what drove them here ... it offered the following generations opportunities to mainstream and to develop some of the advantages that all of us as Americans know today. And so ... in a way it's not so different than from the immigrants from Europe that came to the East Coast and from the struggle from the Vietnamese that only recently came to the United States and the Asians that are coming from China and so ... all of us kind of ... it's an economic struggle ... so those are important parts that have to be brought up in an exhibit.
LG: .... Any other contemporary issues?
CC: No ... it's just basically I think that the objective for this type of exhibit should at least point out or shatter some misconceptions about ... about things, events, places. You know ... I mean ... I tried to think of an example ... what Rene just mentioned ... finished mentioning something about the migrant workers ...
LG: Uh-huh.
CC: ... and how maybe some people think that they take jobs away and stuff. And people don't realize that if it wasn't for migrant workers ... I mean some of our economic status would not be the way it is if it wasn't for that ... you know they pay taxes ... I know I was reading not too long ago about in Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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California alone ... I mean I think in 2 days if you'd take all that labor away ... I mean the whole economic ... it would just collapse.
LG: Uh-huh.
CC: And these are some of the ... I mean I'm just using that as an example ...
LG: Sure.
CC: I mean I could go on and on and on ... many things ... but I think the important thing is that what this exhibition should do ... as well as enlighten the people with the historical events and stuff ... it's also shatter ... shatter some of these misconceptions.
LG: Okay. How about you Joe? you want to say anything more ........ that? .........
JL: No ... I think that they said the right thing about it. Economically ... that's why we all come in here.
LG: Uh-huh.
JL: And everybody's looking for the best. And we're trying to struggle to get more ... to be better ... and better ourself. And this is the way all these people were moved ... either go forward for a better economic for your family and everything ... and I think this is what ... what we've been talking about ... that we should be focusing on ....
LG: Okay. Is there anything that you would like to say to Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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kind of wrap this up? Is there any last statements you would like to make? Because we're getting kind of short on time and we have maybe 5 minutes left.
RN: I enjoyed participating and I'm glad you took the initiative to come to El Paso and to interview the many people that I think are going to be an important part of your exhibit. I think your exhibit ... I had the pleasure of being there ...
LG: Good.
RN: ... and I think that you're doing the right thing in upgrading it because there could be a lot of myth there ...
LG: There is. (laughter) There is. (laughter)
RN: ... obviously you're talking to some people now that ... straight from the horse's mouth who have lived it ...
LG: Yes. Uh-huh.
RN: ... and so I ...
LG: That's why we're here.
RN: ... I thank you for doing that.
LG: How about? Anybody would like to make some kind of last statement?
CC: Uh ... well ... just ... yeah ... the same thing that I think is very important that this exhibition be ... seen in the right light ... is as important ... is as important for the rest of the Texans and is also as important to even our Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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own popula ... our own Mexican-Americans ... because ... somebody just not long ago mentioned ... and I had never heard El Paso being referred to as "................" ... (laughter) ... and ................ is the term ... what would you call it? ... the indigenous term for the Southwest ...
LG: Uh-huh.
CC: ... but it's the "Belly button of ............."
SW: Oh dear. (laughter)
CC: Because it's right in the heart and everybody ... it's been mentioned several times that at some point ... there is at some point in their lives or in the past had some connection either they just crossed through here ...
LG: Uh-huh.
CC: ... or whatever ... but it's very important even to the Mexican-Americans to be ... for El Paso to be portrayed.
RN: It's almost exactly in the middle of a 2,000 mile border ... El Paso.
..: Uh-huh.
LG: That's right. Joe did you want to make any last statement here?
JL: Well, I want to thank you for interviewing us. I think that the City of El Paso is going to be ... showing something for the City of El Paso ... you're recognizing us that we are ... what you have here ... and I'm very proud that you people Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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came over and interviewed us. I think this is something that is going to help the City of El Paso and the border towns.
LG: We're very grateful to have had the opportunity to come and to talk to you ... I had never been off of the highway in El Paso before. I have driven through El Paso but this is the first time I've had the opportunity to get off the highway and see a little bit ....
JL: I think you had a better turn-out this time because we were invited about ... when was it? ... about 2 months ago? ... when Leo was here and Galvan were here ...
LG: Uh-huh.
JL: ... and they were supposed to have an interview like this one here at the Lincoln Memorial and the only one that showed was me and my wife ...
LG: Uh-huh.
SW: Oh dear.
JL: They were very disappointed.
LG: Well, I'm glad that you all came and it's really ... well ... it's a stretch for us to be able to meet people who are geographically hundreds of miles away ... I pass I-10 regularly where it says El Paso ... 284 miles ...
..: Uh-huh. (laughter)
LG: ... that's a fair distance.
SW: There's this wonderful pride that you've felt today.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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LG: Yes ... yes.
..: Uh-huh.
SW: From those of you ... it's just ... and you're experiences are very different from Edinburg and San Antonio ...
..: Yeah.
LG: ........
CC: I just ...
SW: ....... mention .......
LG: Yesterday evening we took a ride through the scenic loop ... the Rim Road ...
..: The Rim Road ... (laughter)
LG: ... saw a little tiny taste of the mountains ...
(mixed conversation) ... it was wonderful ... it really was.
JL: Have you driven down the Valley?
LG: No ... I haven't yet ... some of the other group has ... we just came ... we've been here ... some people arrived Thursday and they have done a little bit more ... some of us ... Sally and I were in a group that came in yesterday ...
JL: When are you leaving? when are you leaving?
LG: We're leaving this evening at 7.
JL: Oh.
LG: So we've got this afternoon to do a lot ... (mixed conversation) ........
JL: I'm pushing for the Missions.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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LG: Hey ... well ... we hope to do that ... some of us hope to do that this afternoon.
JL: Every chance that I have to get somebody out here ...
LG: We've stretched this as long as we could so that we could get ...
JL: ..... to the Missions because they always talk about the Missions of San Antonio and you see those Missions from here ... I mean they're old ... the oldest in the U.S. ... and this is what we're trying to promote tourism out here ...
RN: Yeah. That's what we're trying to do.
CC: I would probably ... I'd show you ... maybe give you a tour of the murals. (laughter)
LG: I would love to see the murals. I don't know if you know but we do hope to have a mural as part of the ....
CC: And please keep me in mind in whatever capacity to be ... I know ... my ... as well as being an artist ... I think I am also an advocate in terms of ... when doing community or public arts ... that it's approached in a kind of a team effort type of approach rather than an individual ... like I mentioned earlier ...
LG: Yes.
CC: ... where you get your historians ... you get your various constituency that you're trying to portray in order to properly reflect the true concerns ... and the true ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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(mixed conversation)
LG: That is exactly the way that we wanted to it ... it's the hard way of doing it.
JL: We have a mural that was painted on a business right across from the Socorro Mission ... a beautiful ... it has the Rio Grande and it has the Mission here and you see people crossing the Rio Grande ... it's beautiful.
..: You ever seen it?
CC: Which one? The one in .... ?
JL: Socorro.
..: Socorro.
CC: Socorro. No ... I've not ... maybe I have ...
JL: See ... I'm trying to get you up there too.
LG: You need .........
(laughter) (mixed conversation)
CC: I'm in the Upper Valley ... what you call the Upper Valley ... I'm on the other side ... I'm in the Upper Valley ...
(laughter) (mixed conversation)
CC: He's in the Lower Valley ... I'm in the Upper Valley.
LG: He focused. Right? He knows exactly where he's focused. (laughter)
SW: I'm really curious to find out ... and I missed part of your conversation about the bilingual ... how do you think is a good way to do this? On this ... in any area? What is it? Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg -
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Is it the written word? Is is the spoken?
RN: As far as educating our youth?
SW: .......
LG: As far as communicating I think.
SW: If we're going to do part of this bilingual ... how do we do it the most effective way? You know ... do we do it with supplemental .......
CC: We talked about ... we mentioned about this laser disc thing where you just ... push the button ... you have an option ...
LG: And that's one ...
SW: Oh.
LG: And that's one thing that we will do.
JL: What language is this in?
RN: Yeah.
LG: And I know that's something that we will do but like she said ... there's all kinds of ...
SW: Yeah ... really ...
..: ..............
LG: ... technicalities involved and such ..
(mixed conversation) ....
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
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Description
| Title | Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, El Paso, Texas, Part 5, May 21, 1994 |
| Interviewee |
Callejo, Carlos Fierro, Queta Nunez, Rene |
| Interviewer | Gudzikowski, Laurie M. |
| Description | Transcripts of community meetings conducted by the Institute of Texan Cultures as part of the Tejano Community Advisory Group. |
| Date-Original | 1994-05-21 |
| Subject |
Mexican Americans--Texas--Biography. Mexican Americans--Texas--Ethnic identity. |
| Collection | University of Texas at San Antonio Institute of Texan Cultures Curator of Exhibits Records |
| Local Subject |
Activism/Activists Education/Educators Mexican Americans Texas History |
| Publisher | University of Texas at San Antonio |
| Type | text |
| Format | |
| Digitization Specifications | 24 bit, 200 dpi |
| Source | Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, El Paso, Texas, Part 5, May 21, 1994: University of Texas at San Antonio Institute of Texan Cultures Curator of Exhibits Records |
| Language | eng |
| Finding Aid | http://www.lib.utexas.edu/taro/utsa/00258/utsa-00258.html |
| Rights | http://lib.utsa.edu/SpecialCollections/services_copyright.html |
| Full Text | THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso INTERVIEW WITH: Queta Fierro, Rene Nunez, Joe Ledesma, Carlos Callejo (Tape 1) DATE: 21 May 1994 PLACE: University of Texas at El Paso INTERVIEWERS: Laurie Gudzikowski LG: ... saying this is Laurie and we're in El Paso this morning for a Community Advisory Meeting. And I'm going to go around the table and ask everyone to say their name and to say a little bit about themselves as we start our tape this morning. QF: My name is Queta Fierro and I'm a native El Pasoan, very proud of it, I recently retired from Government employment and I am doing my thing ... doing the things I enjoy and I'm having a wonderful time. RN: Hi. My name is Rene Nunez. I'm also a born and raised El Pasoan. I'm with El Paso Community College and also very proud to be a member of the State Board of Education, representing the El Paso County in Austin. JL: Hi, my name is Joe Ledesma from the city of Socorro. I'm a retired civil service, I'm involved with the Mission Trail Association, I was City Council with the City of Socorro for two years, the Mayor Pro Tem. Thank you. LG: Very good. Now okay. Now I have some questions to ... to at least to begin the discussion and we're certainly not going to be limited to these questions, if the discussion ranges around ... that's ... the better ... the farther it ranges and the more that we learn ... the better ........ We ... you ... most of you saw some plans and heard some plans about our exhibit ... I'd like to start with what isyour reaction to the exhibit plans that we just presented. What you heard about our plans for this exhibit and how we are going about it ... I'd like your reactions to that ... if you have any. We've already had some questions about the meaning of the exhibit ... calling it a Tejano Exhibit ... if you have any reactions about that ... we'd like to know. QF: It was some discussion as to what we like to be called ... ourselves. And personally I'd ... I like to be called Hispanic or Mexican-American. I don't have any problems with anything else. It's just that that's what I'm more familiar with and more accustomed to. It's just a matter of preference. LG: How about you? JL: ........ RN: In the scope of trying to have presence in the United States and identify yourself as a group of people that ... at the present time is a minority ... Hispanic is okay with me because I understand it ... but I was always brought up to be known as a Mexican-American and probably the most comfortable of all terms to me is a Mexican-American. JL: Well, I'm kind of confused ... for the last 15 years ... (laughter) ... they've been calling you Chicano ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 3 Mexican-American ... and when I was raised out here in the Lower Valley ... we were considered as Tejanos ... Texans ... you know. Any place you go ... Where're you from? ... From Texas. But I don't know about Mexican-American ... what are we? Years back when you made an application ... it always said there ... Races ... who are you? ... White ... and that was it ... and now you have ... Hispanic ... Africans ... Asia ... so you don't know where you stand. Actually, I'm very confused. I think that I'm a Texan ... and I'm an American ... an American-Texan ... that's it. Because I was born here in the US and I think that I'm an American and I'm a Texan. And that's it. LG: That's the exact kind of thing that we want. We want to know what ... who people think they are ... because you're right ... this is a very confusing thing. I hate it when I have a form to fill out. No matter how I fill it out ... in Texas ... they always end up saying ... Anglo. QF: Uh-huh. JL: Yes. I mean ... that's what really gets confusing. Before you weren't confused ... I mean ... you go ... any application you'd fill out ... it only had ... White ... Color ... that's it. QF: That was in the old days. JL: But now we're all confused. And most of our kids are very confused.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 4 LG: Well ... then that's part of the sum of the things that we need to say ... that identity is something that shifts and it's in a state of ........ RN: Well, I think a lot of it is intended to create equities ... because as a whole ... as a whole if you go back in history many groups of people have been discriminated against and in order to fight discrimination you had to have a label and you had to identify yourself as a part of a certain group. And in this state as many, many, many people came from Mexican descent ... and I can tell you from being in the school business all of my life ... there is a lot of discrimination against the Mexican-American child ... in the form of facilities ... in the form of playground equipment ... in the form of who got more funding than who ... that type of thing. And all of those things have not come out until recently and therefore the label became important in the fight for equity. And I think that was part of it. LG: Okay. Now. As I think we made it clear ... or perhaps we didn't ... the Institute of Texan Cultures has a fairly large exhibit floor and it has always had exhibits of people by ethnic background. We had one exhibit that was a Spanish exhibit ... one that was Mexican ... one German ... one Belgium ... one Scots ... and so on. We're in the process of re-doing the Spanish-Mexican areas ... because basically not much has been Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 5 done with them since 1968 when we opened and the world has changed a lot since then. JL: Um. LG: We ... the thought is to combine those two areas into one area that we are tentatively calling Tejano. And that is still a title ... a title that has been much discussed over the years. There's a lot that we need to learn about how people identify themselves and just how people deal with their identity that needs to go in that. We don't have an infinite amount of space ... this will be an exhibit that talks about the Mexican-American culture ... in Texas ... there will be other exhibits that talk about German-Americans in Texas ... and Belgians in Texan ... and Indians in Texas ... and so on. By legislative mandate we deal with Texas ... so we cannot deal with the whole world ... but we don't even have space to deal with all of the aspects of a culture that's been around in Texas for 300 years and comprises ... at least in some places ... a third to a half of the population ... it's of the ........ subject. So ... what 2 or 3 main points do you think that the exhibit should concentrate on? RN: I think one of the things is to let people know and be aware of that it is 400 years ... El Paso has celebrated its 400th anniversary plus ....... And that it was part of Mexico and Spain ... we know that ... and that importance was never Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 6 brought out to the children of Texas in the early '30s and '40s and '50s ... and so we need to teach ... I think ... our youth now so they can be very, very proud of the heritage that was here at one time ... and the culture. LG: ......... there is one thing that we would like to see as an important thing ....... exhibit of this kind? QF: Well, it's a ... we need to let everybody know that we've been here for a long, long time. And it should be brought out and made evident to everybody ... like Rene said ... we didn't read about that in our books. And it's something that we need to get out and make everybody aware of. Because if we don't ... how are we going to get word out? I mean ... it's just word of mouth ... that's what we do now ... in our families ... with our friends ... and gatherings ... when we recollect the past ... when we get together in groups and we reminisce and we talk about it ... but we never read it. The only thing that we read was what? the Alamo? you know. RN: And that was very negative. LG: It's a very limited kind of view. RN: And a touchy subject in San Antonio now. ..: Touchy subject in San Antonio. ..: Yes. ..: Very touchy subject. LG: It's always been a touchy subject ... but it's more public Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 7 recently. QF: And I remember when I went to Mexico ... ...... years ago ... we went to the Chapultepec ... Palacio Chapultepec and there the guide that was taking us on this tour said ... And this is where the ninos ........ were killed by Americans. ... you know ... God, I said, what? You know ... it's very negative still. ............ LG: It's one of the land-mark events of the history ... QF: Uh-huh ... yes. LG: The Hispanics ... Tejanos ... Chicanos ... in Texas. ..: Uh-huh. JL: I think that we should all be educated in our history. Not only our children but adults. Some American adults don't even know our history at all. I mean ... you talk to people and they don't know where they came from. They don't know their roots. And I think ... like ...... Nunez was saying ... I mean ... in the '30s and the '40s ... what did you have in the history of us? ........? it was only the Americans ... the history of Texas ... and that was it. If you read the history of Texas it doesn't show where we came from ... where were we then? And I think it's very important ... not only to adults ... I mean ... children ... but to adults to educate them in our history. LG: Seems like everyone one agrees that roots are an important Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 8 part of our ... will be an important part of exhibit. Are there any other really important main points that you would like ... suppose you were walking through the exhibit ... what would you like to remember ... most? RN: I'd like to give you a saying that I've heard and read and that is ... When a tree grows and matures ... if you pick up the tree ... and just transplant it ... that you leave the roots ... the tree will die. And that's why roots are extremely important and the growth ... about people. LG: Uh-huh. That's a nice quote. That's why we want you to sign the release so we can use those quotes like that. (laughter) RN: So that roots and traditions become a very, very important part of your identity ... I think. And one of the nice events that just recently happened to me ... Thursday night we made a presentation of scholarships to a group of vocational students at the Holiday Inn and every single one of those students that went up there to the mike thanked their Mom and Dad ... first ... before anybody else. For providing the shelter and the food ... you know ... the support system so that they could succeed in their educational endeavors. JL: And their life. RN: And their life. Then they went on to thank teachers and other individuals ... but it was very nice to see that tradition Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 9 carried on ... every single one. And I think that that's probably very important with other cultures ... I'm sure it is with other cultures ... where the parents play an important part and so you have to mentor your children with the important parts of your culture and your traditions and your roots. JL: Often your parents are the roots ... right? Exactly ... that's where your roots start ... and from your great-grandparents that's the other roots ... you know ... and those roots are spread all over. So ... you have a good point there. RN: And I find that one of the things that probably happened to me and happens to many ... the young men and women ... is that when you mainstream into the American way of life and the American culture ... which is a melting pot of many cultures and many traditions ... you tend to forget your traditional roots and your traditional ... in a culture ... and .... JL: Excuse me ... you're right about that. And in my years when I was going to school ... in grade school ... we were ashamed to take tortillas ... really ... and I'm going to tell you this ... this was the truth ... the white people would make fun of a lot of us ... we used to eat from our bags ... trying to hide ... QF: To hide. JL: ... hide the burrito. And I'm not ashamed to say it ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 10 I came from a very, very poor family and we used to take tortillas and they'd make fun of those ... because we'd take tortillas and frijoles. Now, the Mexican food is so popular you know ... that when you see a burrito you try to put it as high in the air so you can see it and everybody wants it ... you know ... and before you know ... we were ashamed ... to tell you the truth. RN: ....... JL: And there were ... because they would make fun of us. QF: Family backgrounds ... traditional things that we used to do ... the neighborhood ... the music ... that we lived with in that time ... when we were growing up ... well, when I was growing up ... you're younger ... (laughter) ... RN: Just a little. QF: ... and that's what I'd like to see ... kind of like the neighborhood set-up ... you know ... LG: Can you be a little more graphic on your descriptions? QF: Uh ... we were poor but I think everybody else was too. We just didn't know. You know ... everybody else was too. This was back in the late '30s ... early '40s ... '50s ... got our husbands in the '50s ... I ... my parents weren't with me ... they divorced and my father was sick so ... he wasn't really with us he was in the hospital ... but I was raised by my grandmother ... her sister ... my aunt ... or second aunt Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 11 ... and her daughter ... so I was raised by women who were very hard working ... they worked so hard. My grandmother stayed home ... she kind of looked after the house ... the food and everything ... took care of us ... like a mother ... for everybody. And then my 2 aunts would go out and work ... one as a seamstress ... for years and years ... that was her life ... and the other one became a teacher ... her daughter. And she worked very hard also ... she went to school here to ... it was Texas Western College ... and she went to school at night ... for 12 years ... to get her degree. And I remember these women being so strict ... they were so strict ... but I think everybody else was too. You know ... it wasn't this lax attitude that we hear about ... and I say hear about because people I know ... that I grew up with ... were strict ... their families were strict with them too ... and I think they have continued ... perhaps not as rigid as we were raised ... but they continued with their children too. But you hear of other people and what's going on now with the youth ... you know ... the problems that they've created and gotten into and all that that ... we know that there's a lot of lax families that are there ... I don't know what they're doing ... if anything ... you know ... and I'd like to see this portrayed somehow. I don't know how ... but ... in the evenings we didn't go out on the streets or anything ... we would go out on the front porch and sit there Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 12 in the summers and we'd hear cuentos ... stories ... you know ... we didn't have TV. We had radio and I remember listening to the radio a lot ... to stories on the radio ... and your mind would just grow and expand ... because you had to visualize ... you had to imagine ... and that's how you worked ... your mind grew that way. And then we'd meet next day ... did you listen to such-and-such? ... and you re-act the whole story with your friends and we'd sit there at Mamie's and this is what we would do and hear stories or listen to the radio ... with your young friends and ... it was a whole different world. LG: Do you think that perhaps since you were raised by your grandmother ... an older generation ... you had a more conservative upbringing than other of your peers? or was everyone the same? QF: I think it was similar. Now I must ... it meant that I thought that I was raised by very, very strict family members. The others ... and I was an only child ... and so maybe that's why I think that perhaps my family was a little bit more stricter than the others. The others had parents ... real parents there ... and they had brothers and sisters and there was more love going around ... you know ... and I thought ... Oh, they don't love me because they're so strict ... why would they prevent me to go out? and do this ... because the others were doing it. But the others had the companionship of their own brothers Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 13 and sisters ... who might have been older and they were intermingling you know. And so ... I don't know ... but they weren't roaming the streets like they do now. It's different. RN: Very different. We live in a much different world ... I think ... that because we all wanted to mainstream so much and pick up the habits of the period of time that you were growing up in ... you tended to lose a lot of those traditions which were ... that respected a mother and a father ... and the discipline. There's probably some key points in our history that will come out as we study the '60s and '70s and that was ... I blame ... as good as a doctor as he was I blame Dr. Spock a whole lot for .... ..: Uh-huh. RN: ... teaching my wife and myself ... a permissive society ... that he wrote about and the lack of discipline and I think this generation is suffering from some of those teachings and we lost a lot of that discipline and now you have a group of citizens wanting to go back to family values and family traditions ... and the family is very important. The Germans that settled in Texas were very strict with their children ... you had a very ... deep culture in a sense of family and as they've mainstreamed and married off into other groups ... and so we all lose this ... how can we develop an institution of Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 14 education such as this and in all our learning institutions ... to bring back some of those values and those teachings back so that our children can at least compare the two and make some decisions for their future? I think that that would be a good way of trying to teach back some of the things that we have lost. JL: I think that the loser values ... like they were saying ... when they call out with the child abuse ... I mean that's when the kids came out that they don't want to be touched ... they don't want to learn what their fathers taught them before ... and they came ... they went on their own ... and I see what's ... what is the problem now? ... and they think they have all of the authority of themself ... their fathers cannot correct them ... they go to school and they cannot correct them because you're abusing them. And before we had ... our fathers would tell you to do this or do that ... and you obeyed them ... and you learned more ... that was your culture. If your father would tell you ... You be here by 9 o'clock at night. You would be there ... if you don't I'm going to spank you. QF: Exactly. JL: You were there at 9 o'clock. And now if you tell one of these kids ... You be here by 9 and I'm going to spank you. He's going to jump and say ... Hey, you touch me and I'm going to send you to jail. And that's the way they live now. It's Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 15 very hard to bring the culture the way it was before you know. Like she was saying ... I remember when I was a kid you know ... during the month of May we used to go to this lady that had this ... what do they call it in English? ... Ofrecer Flores ... QF: Ofrecer Flores ... in the month of May because it's the month of the Virgen. JL: The Virgen. And it was a lot of fun you know. We'd go in the evenings and pray and we'd put ... go around and put the flowers to the Virgin ... QF: To the Virgin and the altar at church. JL: ... and pray. And it was ... QF: Very traditional. JL: Very traditional. And you don't see those things anymore. We lost that. And ... you know ... we lost a lot of things you know. And sometimes I sit with my sons and my 2 daughters and we tell them that when we were young ... I mean ... we didn't have any restrooms at home ... we had an outhouse ... we used to pump water ... chop wood ... and they don't believe us. And we had those duties ... my brother would bring some water and I would chop wood one day and we'd alternate it ... and that was ... QF: You were assigned ......... JL: ... and that was ... those were our duties. And now you Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 16 don't have ... those kids don't do anything ... just see television and that's it. And this is where we lost everything. QF: Yes, I remember being told to do something or especially not to speak out of turn ... like I'm doing right now ... (laughter) ... you know ... and if some ... if my aunt or my grandmother was speaking and I interrupted because I thought I knew the answer ... I had heard ... you know ... somebody say such-and-such ... and it was a subject that I thought I knew something about and I could give them the answer and I remember they just turned and gave me this icy look with their eyes and I would just freeze. They didn't have to say anything ... I knew that I had had it. (laughter) And that when this conversation would be over and this person that was visiting would leave our home ... I would get it. And that was ... and sure enough ... my aunt would say ... You will never speak out of turn unless you are called upon. You will sit in this room where we're having a conversation but you will not speak unless you're told. And that's the way it was. And if I said anything or did something that I would immediately realize that was not the right thing to do ... I would just automatically look at her and her eyes would be just at me and that's the way I was raised ... you know ... brought up. JL: Excuse me ... Queta ... since you were boarding with you aunts did you feel that you ... they would punish you because Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 17 you were adopted or whatever? Because ... QF: No. JL: I was ... excuse me ... I was ... my mother died when I was born and I was ....... born ... and I was raised with my uncle and aunt and when I was growing up ... you know ... when I found out that they weren't my father and mother ... you know ... I felt if they would tell me something ... they were punishing ... because I was ... but I noticed that they were doing the same thing with my oldest brother. QF: Uh-huh. JL: ........ QF: I thought at the time they didn't love me ... but later on as I became an adult and they died and I looked back ... they really loved me ... they did ... and it was because of that love that they had that I didn't turn out to be such a rotten person ... you know. (laughter) But I look back and I say ... they really cared enough to be the way they were and take a chance that I would take it the other way ... and I did ... because I was young ... and I really didn't understand ... I said ... Hey, what a dumb kid. But they did. JL: Uh. You're right about ... QF: They loved you. JL: They loved you. Yeah. I felt the same way about ... the way you're saying it ... my father and mother are not here ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 18 my uncle doesn't love me because he's calling me ... he's telling me to do something. But now I appreciate every word he told me. QF: You bet. JL: I mean ... because he showed me the same thing that he showed his own son ... and I learned a lot ... to respect the elderly ... QF: He treated you the same way. JL: The same way. But at that moment I didn't feel that way ... sometimes you don't ... I would go out and cry ... you know. QF: I did the same thing. Uh-huh. LG: Well, we've had a lot of talk about the importance of families ... importance of passing on values to the children ... can you see just ways that we could bring these points out visually. Our musuem exhibit is a visual thing ... it's not a book on the wall ... it's visual. What kind of artifacts do you think? other artifacts or stuff? what kinds of things could we show this how through graphics ... through videos ... through set-ups ... settings ... manikins ... I don't know ... video .... END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES. SIDE 2. LG: ... of the tape. RN: I think it's very important that you get a person with Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 19 some expertise to interpret all the tapes that you're taking around the three areas of the ... the Rio Grande Valley, El Paso, and your other areas ... and try to maybe duplicate a scene with some of the statements that have been made and try to either have a video made or something and act out some of these traditions and some of these statements and some of these ... the very, very important cultural habits so that it could be used as a teaching tool to those young people that would visit your institution and use that as a lesson in ... not only in history ... but hopefully that they would pick up some of the ideas and hopefully implement them in their lives. QF: Well, not only that. Too, adults ... because when they see this tape that is being acted out from our ideas and conversations ... they too will relate to all of this. JL: Exactly. RN: Uh-huh. QF: Right? They will identify. I remember, we used to do this. You know. And so it would be ... it would be fun. ..: Something like that. JL: It's a ... excuse me ... a lot of adults like she's saying ... Queta's saying ... we've forgotten what we went through and we have to remind ourself and let the children ... the younger generation ... know what we went through. It was hard ... but it was a lot of fun. I think it was a lot of fun. And this Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 20 is what we have to ... you say you can put it in a video or whatever ... but show this younger generation ... you know we should be very proud what our ancestors showed us ... and because they showed us a lesson that's why we're here and this is the way our children is going to be proud of us ... what we left behind ... and this is the roots that are going ... and I think if you put something on the video or a museum where you see a man picking cotton ... I used to pick cotton when I was a kid you know ... and people don't know because they see these big machines picking cotton ... they don't know that we used to pick by hand. LG: Can you talk a little bit about your life? and ... QF: ...... this is where we would like you to sit. ..: .. ... okay ... I'm so sorry. LG: Could you talk a little bit about your life? and about picking cotton? and about the kind of life that you led? JL: Well, I was raised in Socorro, born and raised in Socorro. At that time ... you know ... we went to school and after school we used to go and pick cotton. To get extra money to go to the movies or buy ourselves a pair of Levi's. LG: Uh-huh. JL: At that time a pair of Levi's cost a $1.45 and the only place you could find them was at Popular's Dry Goods. And it was very enjoyable for us you know. Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 21 LG: How much ... how much ... how long did you have to work to earn a $1.45? JL: Well, at that time you'd probably have to work a full ... let's say ... two hours ... every evening ... LG: For how long? to earn that much money? JL: Oh, they used to pay you $.25 for a 100 pounds ... so you would probably pick 20 pounds every evening so ... (laughter) ... LG: So that's a lot of time to get ... went into those jeans. JL: Right. A lot of backaches ... you know ... picking cotton and ... that's what we used to do you know ... to get extra money for Christmas too ... that was ... that was very enjoyable ... go to the cotton fields ... on Saturdays we used to go out there and pick cotton through half of the day or whatever ... to have extra money. LG: Now ... you've said several times ... it was very enjoyable ... what was enjoyable about it? JL: About it? Because you had a feeling that you were going to earn some money. LG: Uh-huh. JL: At that time it was very hard to have money. Your parents couldn't afford to give you ... even a quarter ... so when you earned your money you feel very proud. And ... you know ... it made you feel good ... that this is my money and I'm going Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 22 to spend on clothing ... because I need a pair of Levi's for school ... or a shirt ... and this is the way it was. And I still have some cotton ... I have 15 acres of cotton right now ... and I still have that cotton ... But you know ... as the cotton field went up ... you know ... you see now ... cotton pickers and you'll see those things ... you know ... I think if they go back to picking cotton by hand ... it's cleaner ... it's more valuable when you sell it ... and the kids would learn more about it. Because after school ... how many kids go out of school? ... and what do they do? ... nothing ... ........ go and pick cotton ... They would earn their money and have something to be proud of it. LG: Okay, let me break in now and say that we have been joined by another person and if you would say your name for our tape so that we could get ... say you name and a little bit about yourself since you've joined us a little bit later than some of the others. CC: Okay, my name is Carlos Callejo and I'm a native El Pasoan, lived in Los Angeles for a long time, but am back ... been back 8 years ... LG: ....... CC: ... I'm an artist ... I'm an artist ... I'm presently working on a mural for the county courthouse depicting the history of the area ... but not just depicting the history but Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 23 also shedding or putting particular emphasis on parts of history that are not normally covered by our regular means of education or regular curriculum ... that sort of thing. For instance, when people look at this history they'd normally ... automatically ... think it's Mexican-American ... Hispanic ... Chicano ... whatever ... I have to say all of them to be in a safe ... (laughter) ... group ... my political ... my political ... correct terminology here ... Anglo and Native American ... but people don't realize that also ... for instance ... the Syrian community had strong input in the development to the area ... the Jewish community ... the Asian community ... and once upon a time we even a Chinatown here ... people don't realize that. So that ... those sort of things also. LG: It's obvious that you've done a lot of thinking about Texas history and Chicano history ... and we're talking about the exhibit ... we've been talking about the exhibit and one or two main points that our exhibit could communicate and ways that we could communicate them. So ... do you have some thoughts on those subjects? CC: Well, I ... you know ... I'm not well-versed and well-read in Texas history in general ... but maybe El Pasoan history and not necessarily by the textbooks ... but more by personal experience ... LG: That's what we want to hear.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 24 Carlos: ... I think that I could probably shed some light and ... but basically it's only my ... my own perception and my own views ... and how I look at the area and what significant things that's brought to my life and what it has instilled in me growing up in my formative years here and how I moved to Los Angeles ... I'm able to sort of bring it back and look at it from a different perspective and kind of even appreciate because I think that some of the morals and some of the values that I obtained in those early developmental years have carried on through my adult life and have shaped a lot of my personal views and political views and that sort of thing. LG: That fits in very well with what we have been saying. I'm not sure if we've lost our continuity here but does anybody else have ... like to talk? You haven't talked about how we could make the kinds of points about family and roots and transmission of culture and values in a visual way. One of the things that we are planning for this exhibit is to have first person points of view ... in other words we're more interested in having your points of view on the wall that an institutional point of view. So ... this is the way it was ... we're more interested in your saying ... this is the way it was for me. RN: I think one way that we could express that would be ... we talked about a video and having some of the comments ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 25 but also doing a mural. A large mural with a voice activator as you see in some of the museums in Washington D.C., and that type of thing. And with actual voices of some of the comments that you're picking up as you travel through the state. So there can be a person talking with a lot of sensitivity ... of a part or portion of his or her life so that that mural can mean ... have some meaning ... QF: Come alive. RN: ... come alive to the person ... hopefully the young student that is looking at the exhibit. LG: As a ............ would you like to comment on that? CC: Um. No ... it's a wonderful idea ... some sort of like what I'm also thinking for mine ... (laughter) ... some kind of explanation. No ... I just think it's a wonderful idea. I ... you know ... I sometimes ... I just finished coming back from Tyler, Texas, doing a mural in Tyler, Texas, East Texas, and it was sort of in a way refreshing also ... ..: Inspiring. CC: ... Well ... I found it ... how ... I mean ... it just sort of slaps you in the face how Texas is so big and how ... you know ... we could be in the same state and we basically in two ends of the world in terms of ... in terms of values and in terms of what we see. And ... I mean ... when I was over there I had to sort of correct some of the perceptions Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 26 about El Paso ... (laughter) ... QF: Did you get defend us? CC: Oh ... very much so ... are you kidding? LG: Does El Paso need defending? CC: Uh ... I think so ... I think that being that we're geographically been located so far away ... maybe from Austin ... I don't think we have enough of a voice or enough of a lobbying force to obtain some of the things that maybe we could ... what I'm saying is that we sometimes get excluded in a lot of things. I remember back ... as growing up in high school ... being referred to "as culturally deprived" when they referred to ... when children coming from a poverty kind of background and all that kind of stuff and I always sort of ... I always remember saying "culturally deprived" ... what does that mean? ... "culturally" ... when in fact I think ... JL: Whose culture? CC: (laughter) Whose culture? (laughter) I think that we're just so overwhelmed ... I think of El Paso as being where it is at ... being that it's in the heart of 3 states ... 2 countries ... we are just so intertwined and we have a lot to offer the rest of the ... the rest of the state as well as the rest of the nation. People don't realize how many things have come ... have derived initially from El Paso ... but always made it someplace else because there was never a support system being Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 27 that we were economically deprived ... we had to leave in order to make it ... in order to ... But we have so much to offer and in a very unique way to offer. And I'm trying to say things in a nutshell because I don't want to take people's time away. But I know that that is what I kind of have in my later years have come to realize what tremendous capacity and tremendous things El Paso has. RN: It's interesting when you mentioned culturally deprived because I think it's just the opposite. We're enriched by a tremendous culture and we have it. But we haven't been able to share it or expose it and this is where the Institute should come in. One of the saddest things that I felt was for someone in Washington D.C., at a seminar say ... You know, Rene, you're very, very lucky because you know who you are. You know where you came from. My family's been here ... you know ... 200 years and we've mixed so much that I don't know who I am ... I don't know if I'm still German ... I don't know if I'm French ... I don't know if I'm Norwegian ... I'm so melted in that I have no identity. And you are ... you're still ... very proudly call yourself a Mexican-American ... a Chicano ... whatever ... you know ... but that made me think ... Boy, this person is telling me something that they have lost because they tried so hard to mainstream and become part of this ... ..: Assimilate.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 28 RN: ... this American ... assimilate ... that they lost their own identity. And now they felt lost. ..: Uh-huh. RN: And so I think it's good for our children to know that they do have a beautiful culture and they do come from someone. And share it with someone in the North who's very proud to be Italian ... or very proud to be French or German or all the others. And when we mix together we honor each other's cultures and habits and roots. CC: And at the same time I think that it's very important to uphold some of the traditions that we've had that are beginning to get lost. It was very interesting when Rene mentioned about Washington ... I had the opportunity of participating at the Smithsonian Institute ... the Folklife Arts Festival last year ... and their theme was Borderlands ... Border Culture. And I was sharing a room with a gentleman from Juarez who's a guitar maker, born and raised in Juarez, he's a little bit older than me but we were ... and I grew up in Juarez also as a young kid ... being that both of my parents worked in El Paso ... and I was being raised by my grandmother for baby sitting purposes. But being able to experience the Juarez experience enabled me to ... when you talk also Juarez we're talking about when I was a kid ... I'm 43 years old ... we're talking 6 years old ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 29 RN: Doesn't look like it. (laughter) CC: ... and I remember how ... how Juarez ... when I lived in Los Angeles when somebody referred to Juarez or to El Paso ... there was no distinction. And I think the distinction started happening then until after maybe the devaluation of the peso ... the stricter immigration laws ... that started defining the line more. But the conversation that we had was ... we were comparing certain experiences and somehow we started talking because he's being that he's a guitar maker about Tex-Mex music. Or Norteno music and how usually that Norteno music and the Tex-Mex ... sort of just a border kind of ... which is true ... it's a border ... but El Paso doesn't really ... just doesn't ... just fit just that ... we have a lot more. I remember when I was growing ... as a kid ... the metropolitan ... the metro-plex for culture was Juarez ... everybody went to Juarez ... you had your top-name ... you go right now to downtown ... the theaters that are being closed ... all the art deco ... all the ... I mean it was a very metropolitan type of a city ... LG: When you ...... CC: ... all your ... your ... you know ... more your trios ... your voleros ... it had that ambiance ... it was more than just Norteno ... it was more than just ... and it was interesting to compare notes ... how ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 30 LG: When you say downtown ... downtown El Paso? CC: Juarez. QF: Downtown Juarez. LG: Okay. QF: And that's where all the movie stars would come. They didn't come to El Paso ... they came to Juarez. And that's where everybody went on weekends. Because these big movie stars from Hollywood would go to Juarez ... they wouldn't come to El Paso. RN: You're absolutely right. It was the Las Vegas almost of Mexico. And they had beautiful nightclubs there ... beautiful nightclubs ... La Fiesta ... I remember ... you'd go in there ... seeing people like Nat King Cole ... they wouldn't come to El Paso ... they would go to Juarez. The population was there and the night-life was there and so it did have that metropolitan feeling of a large city. And you're absolutely right Norteno music was more of a ... from the south of Texas ... from the cultural habits of the Germans ... the Germans that came to Texas with their polka music and the Mexicans combined and that's where your Norteno music ... it's a polka ... it's a Mexican polka is what it is. ..: Uh-huh. LG: Do you want to add something to ..... JL: That is true what they're saying about Juarez. I remember Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 31 in my teens we used to go to Juarez ... everybody would go to Juarez. Juarez ...... wasn't nothing but nightclubs ... Chinese Palace ... the Kentucky Bar ... you name it ... and you'd see most of the movie stars ... like Gilbert Roland ... he died ... he was from Juarez ... and ... LG: I remember my mother talking about Gilbert Roland. (laughter) JL: He was from Juarez. He started selling paper here in El Paso ... newspapers ... and that was the entertainment of the city of El Paso and all the Valley. You'd go to Juarez nightclubbing and you would go ... when you'd go out there ... I mean ... people were dressed real ... you know ... unique. QF: All dressed up. RN: You noticed it. CC: And see I think it's important to realize that because we've lost that. And we lost that being it's in another country of course they have to go with the economic situation ... of course ... and I could dare say that over half of the population of Juarez have not been there more than 20 years. And most of the population ... Juarez actually ....... El Paso or in Los Angeles ... and it's ... you see the turmoil ... the infrastructure that's happening in Juarez it's ... there's not that committment of bettering or being involved in your infrastructure ... your political ... because most of the people Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 32 come in and ... you know ... if you're not born there ... or you don't feel part of ... so you don't get involved ... so it's shaped ... I mean ... the dynamics ... those are some of the things that I'm saying that are being lost ... now it doesn't have that ... but I think that's important to realize that ... that was there. LG: We're almost to the end of our first hour here and when we come to the end of the first hour we're going to have a little break so you can fill up your coffee cups or whatever ... and then we'll come back and we'll talk some more. And I think since I have the privilege of having 4 El Pasoans here that maybe we should talk more specifically about El Paso and how we could make El Paso come alive ... a part of Texas in this exhibit ... what is the essence of El Paso. RN: That's an interesting statement. Because will El Paso have an exhibit there in San Antonio? Will there be a portion devoted to El Paso? LG: I don't know. We haven't really decided and we haven't done our exhibits regionally. But if El Paso is as unique as you're saying it is then that's ... somehow we need to deal with that. And I'm not sure how but the more we talk about it the more we can find out how that will work. RN: I think it's extremely important because in my travels around Texas and I'm very fortunate that in the last 6 years Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 33 that I've been able to travel a whole lot ... being a member of the State Board ... is that I find many, many people that live in San Antonio their roots came from El Paso. Many people in Houston their roots came from El Paso. This was kind of a gateway ... you know ... that they came across from Mexico as my mom and dad did ... and then we were born here ... but ... LG: And El Paso is the oldest community ... ..: Yeah, the oldest. CC: And that also applies to Los Angeles. I mean if you ... to this date ... you have a bigger ... a bigger ... instead of ... and in terms of people ... you have a bigger Bowie reunion in Los Angeles ... QF: You bet. (laughter) CC: ... a Bowie reunion in Los Angeles than you do here in El Paso. LG: Bowie is? (mixed conversation ... one of the high schools ... ) LG: Okay ... for the record let's get that on tape. QF: For the record ... I heard that ... it was built ... and I can't remember when it was built ... okay? ... but it was built I am told by our ... whoever makes those decisions ... the school board ... or the city fathers ... but it was built in South El Paso for Mexicans.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 34 ..: Uh-huh. QF: Didn't say just ... let's build this school ... it was built for Mexicans. LG: This was back in the '30s or ? older than that? QF: Many, many years .... (mixed conversation) LG: Older than that? I don't know. JL: Yeah ... they had El Paso High which was the ... ..: .......... JL: ... the West Side you see ... and the ... LG: The west population ... the west side is what? JL: Whites would be up there. QF: That was the Anglo school and this was the Mexican school. JL: And the Mexican school was here. CC: And not as far back as the '30s ... I would say ... back to '67 there's still some laws ... even in Clint ... in Santa ......... ... I'm not sure of Santa .......... ... but some of the old Jim Crow kind of laws in terms of education existed after the '60s ... after ... up to the '60s ... RN: What you have ... the reality of what you have ... that people need to be aware of this ... is that you communities like Clint where 80 - 90 percent of the student population is Mexican-American ... but the workforce works for the patron who happens to be non-Hispanic ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 35 ..: Uh-huh. RN: ... and those are the ones that are elected to the school board because if I work for you and I'm told to vote for you ... I'm going to vote for you ... because I don't want to lose my job. LG: Can you explain for the record where Clint is? RN: Clint is a community in the southern ... eastern ... CC: Eastern ... eastern part. RN: ... eastern part of the county. LG: Okay. RN: And it's a farm community and maybe this gentleman can ... Joe can speak more about it. JL: It's a city of itself ... incorporated itself ... 4 miles from the city of Socorro. LG: Okay. JL: You have ... ..... have here is El Paso ... and then El Paso ... the citizens of El Paso would ........... right here ... LG: Uh-huh. JL: ... and keep going ... Yslero was a town in itself and then Socorro ... Santa ........... ... Clint ... ..: ....... JL: ... .......... and those were the Valley ... what used to call the Lower Valley ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 36 LG: Uh-huh. JL: ... but El Paso keeps growing and it extended itself ... it went out to the city limits of Socorro. Socorro was incorporated in 1800 and it was dorm and it was revived in 19 ... 19 ... let's see ... it was 1986 ... revived again and we become a city of our own ... ourself ... because of the county was in control see? ... you probably heard about the colonias out here ... all over the world ... okay ... what the farmers were doing selling the property to developers because they couldn't afford to have any more farming ... it's too expensive and you can't get anybody to support it ... so they developed these sub-divisions and people that were poor went over and bought out there and what happened ... the county didn't have any control over those sub-divisions and that's why they became colonias ... because when these developers came in the county didn't have any force them to put any water ... any sewer ... or anything ... they just said ... open land ... buy it ... and that's it. And that's what creates colonias. LG: Uh. Okay. I think people are beginning to break up and if we're at a good stopping point here ... let's have a little break and then we'll come back in a short while and continue on. ..: Sounds good. ..: Sounds great.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 1) 37 END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso INTERVIEW WITH: Queta Fierro, Rene Nunez, Joe Ledesma, Carlos Callejo (Tape 2) DATE: 21 May 1994 PLACE: University of Texas at El Paso INTERVIEWERS: Laurie Gudzikowski LG: ... this is tape 2, El Paso, on May the 21st, 1994. QF: Okay ... thank you ... I'm Queta. And I'm sorry I'm going to have to leave. But I did want to just make one small point ... that I know this Tejano name is out and is very much used and I can certainly understand where we are from Texas ... we were born in Texas so we're Texans. And translated ... Tejanos. Which is fine. Somehow I kind of think that El Paso ... we're a little bit more traditional ... you know ... we're ... I really don't know how to express it ... how to explain it ... other than ... I never even thought about it ... being a Tejana ... although I am ... because of the fact that I was born here. But I kind of think that there's values and traditions that is a little bit more sophisticated than that ... to me ... being from El Paso. So with that I'll leave you. LG: Thank you. QF: Whatever you can make out of that. LG: Thank you. I really appreciate your taking time on this Saturday to join us. QF: It was my pleasure. Thank you. LG: We're on the second part of our community meeting in El Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 2 Paso, it's the 21st of May and once again I'm going to ask the people to go around and say their names at the beginning of this tape so that we will have everybody's voice identified. RN: My name is Rene Nunez. CC: Carlos Callejo. JL: Joe Ledesma. LG: Thank you. And at the end of our last session we decided that we would focus some on El Paso since we have native El Pasoans here and talk about what makes El Paso unique and how we could put that into our exhibit. You want to start? RN: Let me tell you that Mrs. ... Queta had to leave to go take care of an elderly member of her family and as we talked about culture and habits and as you grow you understand that that's part of your responsibility ... to take care of your elderly and so she wanted to apologize for leaving. LG: We were fortunate to have ... to have her this morning ... she's a very articulate lady. RN: Yes she is. LG: Would someone like to start out our discussion? RN: Okay. What was the question again? (laughter) LG: Talk about El Paso in particular ... what makes El Paso unique ... and how we might display that uniqueness as part of our exhibit. You've travelled a lot ... RN: Well ... I think one of the ... obviously some of the things Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 3 that make El Paso different from any other communities is its geographical position on the North American continent. And that is a high desert ... dry climate ... and because it's that ... in the beauty of its mountain and its desert it is very different than many, many other parts of Texas and the United States. And so it has developed its own identity and it's very interesting when I meet people from the East Coast or the Northwest and they love it here. And they think it's beautiful you know. And so different. Where when you're born and raised here and kind of grown up here all your life and yet when you go to someplace else and it's green and it's beautiful and all that ... you don't appreciate the desert and the mountain and the climate ... you know. So it is very different from just that standpoint and so you develop a different type of mentality, I think, towards our city. LG: I've noticed that El Paso is one of those places that has a real strong tie on its native children ... the people ... the El Paso people I know in San Antonio ... who live in San Antonio ... now all aim to come back to El Paso. RN: Well, there is a saying ... That you can take me out of El Paso, but you will never take the El Paso out of me. ... you know. And that's very true. I left for approximately 10 years and lived in Southern California and during those 10 years I can promise you that I was here at least 3 or 4 times a year Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 4 because of my roots and an event or a happening ... and I had to come. And after I found myself doing that more than 4 times a year I said ... You know what? I really want to raise my family where I was raised ... in El Paso. And I moved back. CC: It's all similar. JL: Well ... like ............ was saying ... he said he left for 10 years ... I did the same thing ... I left for 7 years ... I went to the service and I lived in California for 3 years and a half ... ........ still El Paso ......... El Paso ... so I came back and I had very good opportunities in California. And when I got married I told my wife ... Why don't we to California? I have good opportunities. And she said ... Well, why don't we stay here and see what kind of opportunities we get here? And fortunately I ended up with a civil service job. My wife ended up with a civil service job and we lived here ... we raised 3 children here ... which I love El Paso ... because I was born and raised here. And like you said ... you can't take El Paso from you ... because it's very unique ... the weather is beautiful here. You can see the snow in the wintertime ... you can go out in the summertime it's beautiful and lot of people have been telling me when they come out here to El Paso ... You have a view here ... you something unique ... these beautiful mountains. That's what the people come out here ... we don't have any mountains out there. You can go to the desert and Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 5 just walk out there ... especially when it's in the rainy season ... you see those wildflowers out of here ... beautiful. You go out to the desert during the rainy season you can see out there the most beautiful desert gardens out there ... wildflowers all over. And it's something very unique. Not only that ... Juan ........... came through here ... 1600s ... and he left some real, very unique things out here ... like the 3 missions ... the Mission Ysleta, the Mission Socorro, the Mission San Elizario ... and this is what we are trying to bring out ... like San Antonio ... trying to bring the tourists out here to El Paso. I belong to the Mission Trail Association and the renovations of the missions and what we're trying to do ... it's get the people out here to El Paso and see the Valley ... what the Valley means to everybody ... this is where we have all the ... cotton fields ... and where you ... all the products that come in here ... corn ... whatever you want to you can plant out here and it grows you know. Someplaces you have to ship it and here you can have everything you want to ... all your vegetables and your fruits can be right here. So we have a very unique ... and we have 3 countries in here ... we have Mexico ... El Paso, Texas ... and New Mexico ... 3 corners ... ..... likely what it is in here. And it's not very far to go to Mexico ... you want to go to Mexico you just walk across the bridge and you're in Mexico ... another country. Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 6 You want to go to another state ... you go to New Mexico ... you just drive about 2 miles ... a mile from here ... and it's just like ... So it's very unique about El Paso. LG: Yes. Carlos, what pushed you away from El Paso and what drew you back to El Paso? CC: Well, these are all very similar stories. So I'll try to change it a little bit ... LG: Okay. CC: ... and probably put a little bit more of a spiritual significance to the whole situation. And at the risk of sounding a little vague and maybe a little romantic ... a little idealistic ... let me say that I think ... you know awhile back I was reading how ... about how the different tribes sort of manifest their religion or their spirituality ... how they sort of manifest on different levels ... I was reading how they compare to the jungle tribes compared to the desert tribes ... and usually desert tribes ... when you see the horizon ... tends to be a little bit more spiritual. So ... I mean ... I don't know what ... has any connection but I guess El Paso being that it is dry you can see horizons forever and see wonderful sunsets and wonderful cloud formations and all that kind of stuff. Wonderful place for an artist. And I think that what Mr. ... Rene mentioned earlier ... how we tend to take those things for granted ... and it's very true because when I left I went Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 7 to California and see all this ....... green ... like ... or East Texas ... where you come from ... very green ... very ... you know ... you kind of envy that ... you want that ... that's supposed to be the thing. And you kind of take your desert for granted and you kind of lose ... It wasn't until recent that I started seeing what beauty the desert has. And what spirituality it has. I think for me ... like I said earlier ... just at the risk of sounding idealistic ... I think that what brought me back was a spiritual connection. When I left El Paso I left at a very early age speaking nothing but Spanish being that I was raised by my grandmother ... my parents were both working in El Paso. And even if I was ... and I did live in ... when I lived in El Paso in Segundo....... everybody spoke Spanish so what's ... so when I left I left speaking only Spanish and went to an enviornment in East Los Angeles where predominately ... the school was predominately made by Mexican-Americans ... but nevertheless everybody spoke English and it was kind of ... I saw that for the most part that people who spoke Spanish got ridiculed. So being a kid you kind of adapt to survival skills right away ... which I was very successful ... and so much successful that I became involved ... kind of what you would say the "in crowd." But part of being in the "in crowd" was ... part of doing that was sort of rejecting your Mexican heritage. I used to catch myself Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 8 sort of fighting ... for instance ... we would form alliances and go fight The .......... Flats ... a gang in East Los Angeles ... it's predominately made my Mexican nationals. And I used to catch myself ... I used to say to myself ... Like why I am ...? ... they never done anything to me personally ... and the thing is that it was very frustrating and very confusing for me because I knew that we were fighting mostly because what they represented ... we used to call them ... like ... .............. ... TJs ... and to me anything ... the only experience that I knew about being a Mexicano was my experience with my grandmother in Juarez which showed me nothing but love. I mean ... I was about the most spoilest grandchild in that household. My grandparents in Juarez had a ................ ... a ................. is like a house where you rent to other people ... there's a patio in the middle with a garden and all around ... so they used to rent ... and some family members would be living ... so there was lot of family members ... lot of cousins ... I grew up with a lot of cousins ... lot of tios and tias ... and that kind of sort of thing ... but I was the most spoilest grandchild. My mom used to even get mad at my grandmother for giving in and making special dinners for me while the others ... the rest of the family had a different dinner. So to me catching myself doing these things in Los Angeles was like fighting against my grandmother ... that showed Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 9 me nothing but love. So it was a very turmoil situation for a young kid. But in a way it made me put things in my own pespective and see how in some ways I was being indoctrinated to reject that ... .... whatever ... to whether it be the mass media ... to the educational system ... whatever institutionalized form that ... And I recall ... there's always ... besides all kinds of images that I've been through all through my life ... being I'm a visual person being an artist ... there's always 3 very dominant images that always come in dreams or in the form ... and it's hard to describe ... but ... and that is my grandmother's face ... the silhouette of the Sierra ............. ... which is one our mountains peaks around the Juarez area ... we have Franklin on this side and Sierra ............ on the other ... and of 18 centavos ... which at that was a lot of money ... I mean I don't know what ... 18 centavos probably one point something of a penny ... (laughter) ... but it was a lot of money back then. Those 3 images played a very significant role throughout my life. Anyway ... but ... what I'm getting at is basically is that ... I can't separate ... and in some ways I feel that what brought me back was a spiritual connection. And I'm kind of very proud to say that in a way ... during ... living around the times when the Chicano ... the height of the Chicano movement or the beginning of the Chicano movement when things were going on Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 10 that really nobody had to introduce me to that ... that it was already there for me. And it was attributed ... basically to the Juarez - El Paso area. I don't think ... I'm talking too much ... but basically it just gives it a sort of spiritual connection. LG: Rene, would you like to talk on what you pushed you away from El Paso ... what drew you back? If there was a ....... RN: Well ... I think ... yeah ... you heard 3 different stories of 3 different people that left and I don't know about the other 2 ... but I left because job opportunities were better outside of El Paso than they were here. Even though I had a degree. I had a degree that was a BA degree and yet it was difficult to get an opportunity to get the job that I thought I was worthy of and even in education as a school teacher, the pay and the opportunities were better in California, so I left. But Carlos has expressed it with a lot of emotion there and it's beautiful. It's that ... that feeling ... that spiritual feeling that's very difficult to describe and I think he did a good job on it. And I was always ... that magnet was always drawing me back and even though material-wise my life was better in California ... nicer house ... nicer cars ... nicer clothes ... you know ... better restuarants ... all those things ... but they didn't mean ... they didn't have any meaning to me as life here in El Paso. I can remember my mother struggling Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 11 to raise 4 kids ... our father was killed when I was 8 months in her womb and so I didn't get to enjoy having a father. My mother was a single parent before it was popular and raised 4 kids and in her struggle she would always go to Juarez every Saturday and I would go with her ... and we used to take the bus ... the tranvia ... and we would go to the market and she would buy her vegetables and her tortillas and her meat or her chicken ... and I would get a haircut and ... you know ... it was a whole morning and sometimes into the afternoon ... it was a whole ordeal ... but that's how she made things stretch. And during the week there was more potatoes and vegetable than there was always meat ... very little meat ... and there was always beans and tortillas. And I missed that when I was in California ... I missed the food ... and I missed ... you know you can go to a Mexican restuarant but it's not the same as mom's ... and today I still have my favorite restuarants here in El Paso ... the greasy spoon places ... (laughter) ... where they make caldo like my mother used to make it you know. And I can't find that any place else ... and that's what keeps me here ... is those spiritual parts of my life that mean more than the material things. LG: Do you think that the same things perhaps ....... today that there is still this lack of economic opportunity that pushes people away and yet their soul resides in El Paso?Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 12 JL: Yes, I think so. I'll give you a good example ... my son works with Texas Commerce Bank ... he worked here in El Paso and he was struggling a lot doing some work for other banks all over ... Texas Commerce Banks all over Texas ... and he got an opportunity to go to San Antonio ... he's working in San Antonio as a manager for a Bank ... which he couldn't get those opportunities here. He was ... and he said to me one day ... said ... Dad, what do you think if I move to San Antonio? I'll be getting more money. I said ... Son, it's up to you ... you're old enough. You have to make your own decisions the way I made them when I was a kid. He's living out there ... I mean ... he's comfortable ... but he's still ... every chance he comes ... he can do ... he's out here. Like for Mother's Day he was out here for a day ... for Mother's Day ... 2 days ... but he comes out here. And he loves El Paso but says I can't get the money that I get out there. Like ................. was saying ... sometimes you leave because the opportunities are out there but you still ... you have that magnet that pushes you back. When I left here I left for the same reason because the opportunities weren't here. And then one of my brothers was ... my cousin ... I grew up with my cousin and call him brother ... came back in 1952 and I stayed here because I didn't know what to do here ... the jobs ... at that time I was earning $1.25 in California ... an hour ... came Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 13 out here and was earning $35.00 ... working for the American Furniture Company ... I was display ... decorator window ... and I was doing that work here at American Furniture ... and making $35.00 when I was doing a $1.25 in California ... there was no money out here. So this friend of mine that was working at the American Furniture he told me ... he said ... Look there's a place out here who is looking for a man that knows how to do some decorations ... like put venetian blinds and hanging curtains ... he said ... I'm going to recommend you ... it's on Montano Street ... he said ... You go out there and this guy's paying a $1 something an hour ... I'll recommend you. So I went over and I was very happy ... I said I'm going to go over and be interviewed ... he already had my name and everything ... so I walked in and talked to the man and he asked me ... Are you from Juarez? I said ... No, I'm from El Paso ... from here. He said ... What is your classification for the services? 1-A. He said ... I'm sorry, but I cannot hire you. I cannot train you and hire you because if I train you probably you'll be called to the services tomorrow. And that really hurt me when he told me that ... you know. So I walked out very sad. Said ... Well, my best choice to me is to volunteer to the service and get it over with. So I was coming back to work ... it was at noon ... and I stopped at the recruiting Naval station out on Stanton Street and I walked in ... I said Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 14 ... You need any volunteers for the Navy? He said ... Yeah. ... said ... Come in. Walk in ... take a test ... if you pass it, you go. I went in there, took the test, and I went to the Navy because I was refused a job. And that really hurt me and I'll never forget that you know. When I came back from the service I made intentions of going to this place ... this man ... and I was going to go tell him ... Sir, you refused me a job one time ... but I came here during the Korean ... that was during the Korean Conflict ... I ........... ... I went into ............. countries so you could keep your store. But when I went back the store was closed ... he probably went broke or something ... but that really hurts me. (laughter) LG: Carlos, you're a visual person, we're getting a lot of very complicated kinds of thoughts here ... is there any way that you could suggest that these could be made into visual kinds of statements? Because a musuem exhibit is a visual thing. It is not a word thing ... it is a visual thing. Maybe you have some suggestions for us. CC: Well, I'm sure that there's a lot of ways to portraying ... to portraying our area ... I'm not speaking for the rest of Texas ... Texas is very big ... but for our area of the museum ... I would ... when I participated at the Smithsonian Folk Life Arts Festival ... they did a wonderful job ... I was very much surprised being that most of the crafts people or the people Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 15 that put up the displays were not from the region. But the photography and the ambiance and they made the mercado scene just like the Mercado ........... ... I mean it was distinct from the Mercado ........... compared to the Mercado Juarez ... that's a good resource. LG: Uh-huh. CC: And I think that they still have all the ........... and all the stuff that they did. That's a possibility. But I would just do ... try to portray a certain scene in the Mercado Juarez. And I think it's very important ... I know you're interested in El Paso ... but you have to ... I mean when you portray El Paso it's very important that you portray both. LG: Uh-huh. CC: Because ... LG: It's obvious. CC: ... it's one and the same for that experience. So maybe the Mercado Juarez ... maybe the El Paso High ... maybe ... you know ... but showing the ambiance. Maybe Stanton Street ... Stanton Street is very like El Paso Street ... where the shopping takes place ... where it brings a lot of memories to all of us ... probably for shopping with our grandmothers or our parents around that area. You know ... the theaters where we used to go and stuff like that. So showing something ... a little bit of that ... I would just sort of make this place Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 16 .... use some photographs ... based on those photographs sort of try to do some ............. to try to simulate the atmosphere ... some of the pile that was ... some of the things that are hanging outside ... very lively ... very colorful ... you know ... that kind of thing ... I mean ... something to that effect. Maybe have some sounds ... similar to the ... LG: Like what sounds? CC: Well, passing cars ... I don't know ... kids selling papers ... I don't know ... that would take some doing ... in terms of those ... some research. JL: Excuse me, this is what the Mission Trail Association is trying to do. LG: Uh-huh. JL: Bring the ... if you noticed El Paso Street ... they put those lights in there ... LG: Uh-huh. JL: ... beautiful lights with the hanging flowers and the Mission Trail Association ... that's what they're trying to do ... attract the tourists to come to El Paso and go to the Mission Trail to the old Missions. And what we have in the Mission Trail we have for the quality historical district and part of El Paso is the historical district ... El Paso Street and some of the streets out here. And we have the district ... the City of Socorro has a historical district ... and San Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 17 Elizario has a district too ... and El Paso has a district ... from historical district from Ysleta to Socorro and then from Socorro to San Elizario. And this is where we're trying to get back into what it was before and get the tourists. They have the trolleys that are running from here to Juarez to the Mission de Guadalupe ............ ... and they go to the Mission de Guadalupe which is one of the oldest ones and they go to the ones in ........... and back to ................ My wife and I are docents at the Socorro Mission and we show the kids the culture what's up to this Mission ... we have some people from Spain ... from Germany ... to come to see those Missions. We had 120 kids ... what was it? Wednesday? ... at the Socorro Mission. ..: Wow! JL: And we have ... they cancelled another one from ... what school was it up here? one from El Paso. ... I can't remember the school. Anyway ... and we are the owners of the first Mission of Socorro. 1984 a Dr. Gerald, an archeologist from U Tech ... asked us permission if he could excavate our land because they knew that it a mission there ... during the flooding areas in the 1600s ... so we let him and they found the foundations of the first Mission of Socorro. ..: ..... LG: Wonderful.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 18 JL: And the artifacts that were ... that they found in there ... they are in the ... do you ever go to the Walter? .......... see ........... on the ........ Road ... you'll see 'em out there. And now the Texas Historical Society is trying to buy part of our land to make a museum ... a national museum ... and make a mission like the old mission ... the one that was ... LG: Reconstructed. JL: ... reconstructed ... like you have in San Antonio. And ... so the tourists will go out there. It's something that we're trying to get ... it's a long-range .... LG: Sure is. JL: ... project ... but it's going to work. Probably I won't see it ... but ... you know ... LG: You're planting the seeds that your children will perhaps see it. ..: ....... JL: So we have a histocial site that's very important. ......... National Historical Society. LG: You must be very proud of that. JL: Thank you very much.. LG: One of the ... I think that I'm talking to 3 people who are both literate in Spanish as well as in English ... something that always comes up when you are discussing this exhibit is Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 19 bilingual ... should this be ... should this exhibit be bilingual in Spanish ... if so ... should it be entirely bilingual ... or ........ bilingual ... what type of Spanish do we ... what is the level of Spanish that the interpretation should be in ... are we talking about classical Spanish ... Tex-Mex ... what are we talking about? So how about issues of bilingualism? RN: While we were on break Carlos suggested that if we're going to use the latest technology that we have the disc where you could punch ... you know ... the scene that you wanted ... so that could go to the scenery that you wanted but also the language you wanted. And I think that would be very important. Whether you wanted it in Spanish ... whether you wanted it in English ... whether you wanted it in Mex-Tex ... which is basically a combination ... END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES. SIDE 2. LG: ... Rene is talking about the issue of bilingualism and how we can do this in our exhibit. RN: I think the fact is that most of us that were from Mexican descent spoke Spanish at home first and we didn't speak a correct Spanish because maybe our parents didn't know correct Spanish. My mother was from Jimenez, Chihuahua, my father was from Durango, and they came over as ... in their single digits ... as young, young kids and so ... all they learned and all they Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 20 spoke was Spanish ... and they didn't have an opportunity to go to school so ... my household ... in our household we spoke ... everything was in Spanish. It was not til I went to school that I started learning English. But any time ... even to this day ... and I'm 50 plus ... when I find myself short of a word that I can't pronounce or I can't say in English I revert to Spanish. And especially when I get around some of my old friends ... high school friends that I went to school with. It's a combination ... it's a beautiful combination. And you ... without any interruptions will speak both languages. And the same holds true now because I've lived in the U.S. all my life ... when I visit in Mexico and I speak Spanish ... I find myself short of a word in Spanish now because I've mainstream so much that I revert to the English. And so I'll be giving a speech in Chihuahua or someplace like that and I'll have to say the word in English because I have forgotten my Spanish and I'm ashamed of that but it's the lack of practice. It's the lack of speaking the language. And so ... I would have all 3 on this display. LG: Okay. Is this issue ... is the tradition of bilingualism something that you are passing on to your children? JL: Yes. Well ... what we're doing here in El Paso ... we talk with ... when we speak the language we have this slang language ... we don't do the correct Spanish you know ... and Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 21 like he said ... we always mix either English or Spanish ... when we have conversation with friends ... I mean we say ... We got a .............. how pretty. ... we mix you know. And this is the way it is. And I think if you're going to have something ... CC: ..... baby-doll. JL: ... you're going to have in both languages ... you want to hear in Spanish or English ... I mean ... you punch it and there .... I think in San Antonio you have those in the Missions ... don't you? LG: I'm not sure. JL: I think I saw them in there. You have a tape recorder ... if you want to hear it in Spanish ... you put a quarter and you hear the tape of the Missions and you have it in both languages. LG: Now tape is relatively easy. What about written? Should ... is written the same thing? Do you want written completely bilingual too? Tapes one thing ... and there will be both. What do you all think? Is written the same thing? CC: Oh, I think ... just logistically ... I don't know ... I think ... maybe on the written ... depending on what resources are available ... but I think it would be fine just as English and Spanish. I don't know how you would ... (laughter) ... your Spanglish ... (laughter) ... in a written form. Yeah, Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 22 that would be difficult. LG: Any other thoughts about bilingualism and ... is this an important part of what makes you ... what forms your identity? is this ... essential? RN: I think it's an extremely important issue ... more than any of us can understand. Because in a global society that we are in and a global economic future that we have ... obviously for those that can speak both language and dominate them ... you know ... to perfection ... they're going to have an advantage over many others that don't have that ability. I see us not only working with Mexico but Central America and South America ... I see Canadians coming to El Paso ... I see New Yorkans from the Wall Street coming to El Paso ... and if they have the ability to speak Spanish and to write it and to read it and to do business in both languages ... what an advantage. And we need our youth to understand that. And we need to make sure that our educators understand the importance of both languages. What an advantage to both people. JL: He's right about it. With the Free Trade ... bilingual is a very important issue right now ... especially here in El Paso ... is we have some factories out here ... maquiladoras ... in Juarez ... and here people come in from Mexico and if you're not a bilingual ... you're lost. If you're bilingual you can communicate with the people from Mexico and with the Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 23 American people. And this is one thing that we should be very proud that we are bilingual ... can speak both languages. I feel very proud and my kids went through .............. school ... but they still ... the Spanish speaking ... we never took it away from them. Because they need it. And my son that is working in San Antonio said ... The other day, Daddy, a man came over from Mexico City and he wanted to make a big deposit of money ... he said ... and he wanted to talk to a man that'd speak Spanish and they thought that he wasn't Mexican because of his light complexion and his name Ledesma ... they thought he was a Dutchman ... and they went over and said ... Well, we have the manager here, he's ... So he talked to the manager ... Hablo Espanol, Senor? ... (laughter) So he was very happy you know. He said ... Daddy, good thing that we never lost our language ... he said ... because now is the time we need it a lot. And this younger generation is going to need it. And I hope that we don't lose it. LG: In general do you see the younger generation growing up bilingual? Yes? No? CC: I ... there is some loss ... there is some loss ... and that's why we need to make a strong effort to try to bring that back. Do you want us to comment a little bit just on the bilingual ... that it is ... I mean ... we've heard of lot of reasons why it should. I think that also it's essential for Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 24 the viewer ... the viewer for this exhibition to properly interpret the soul of certain things. And in order to do that you just can't do it by just English alone. It's ... even ... it's ... in order for them to properly ... ....... saying that ... properly interpret a certain feeling ... you have to do it in the language. There's some things that you just cannot interpret ... you lose the ... LG: Don't translate. CC: ... you lose the soul of it. So ... yeah ... it is very important. And it's important that some stuff in the English version is kept in order to properly get the feeling. RN: Carlos is absolutely right. There's many dichos ... dichos in Spanish and ............. in Spanish ... that obviously you would lose the emotional meaning if you tried to translate them. JL: Uh-huh. RN: And so those are important parts of our culture and our children need to understand the true meaning behind each .............. CC: Yes. And it's very important to realize that some of these dichos ... some of these sayings ... some of these traditions ... for the rest of Texas to realize that just because they are in Spanish it doesn't necessarily mean that they come from Mexico. That they're very much in the Americana. That some Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 25 of these experiences that we're talking about is very much U.S. LG: Give me an example. CC: Oh ... I mean ... give you an example of things ... LG: If you can. CC: Let's for instance just what of I do in terms of muralism ... the contemporary mural movement comes from the United States. Sure the roots might be from Mexico ... from your masters ............ or Orozco and stuff. But those were individuals doing a certain ... approaching that art form in a very ... as an individual ... whereas here we get the community involved and basically it reflects the community and you get the participants ... reflects the aspirations ... the struggles ... the needs ... the whole ... it's the community. But it comes from the United States. These are not just the folkloric art or poor art or for poor people or protest art or that comes from ... derives from ... it's very much integrated to our way of life in the United States here. LG: It's contemporary. CC: This is very much Americana. And people need to realize that ... that it is not ... you know ... that this is a culture that has nourished ... has flourished ... even ... probably even some parts derived directly from here because ... you know ... this ... all this land was once upon a time part of Mexico. LG: Sure.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 26 CC: That is very much integrated in ... in the American culture ... and very much Americana. LG: You started out by saying there were dichos that had ... that were directly from American experience ... can you give me an example of that? Any of .......? CC: Oh ... oh, God ... ........ dichos. I just thought of one but I'd better not. (laughter) LG: Yeah ... that's right ... you signed a release. (laughter) CC: I would have to think .... LG: You can't think of an example? Okay. If you do ... if one comes to you while we're talking ... because I'd love to hear it. I'd like to know ....... CC: There's a chapter .... JL: Give me the question again. CC: Any dichos or ............ ? JL: Dichos. CC: ... that comes ... LG: That comes from the American experience that are not simply something that is folkloric and Mexican. (mixed conversation) ..: Yeah ............. RN: I think one of the ones and it's a very short phrase ... but that my mother instilled in me and I try to use it on my kids and it comes from living here but it's a dicho that she Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 27 learned probably and that is ... .............. ..: That's it exactly. RN: And that for every father and every mother is something that you just tell your kids all the time and that is ... and it's an American saying too ... Tell me who you run around with and I'll tell you are. You know ... it's because we are who we run around with. ..: Right. RN: And the kind of friendships that we surround ourself with ... CC: Birds of a feather. RN: Exactly. And so it's very important Spanish because as a Mexican family integrates into the U.S. culture and you have the friendships they're very concerned as parents that their children are being guided in the right way. JL: That's a good ... LG: Do you have another example? JL: No ... that's a good example though that he was saying ... you know ... what you lose you know ... My sister and my brother-in-law they moved to Colorado ... to Denver ... and their children were raised out there and it's very ashamed you know that they lost something. They came over ... they couldn't talk to my father because my father doesn't speak very well English ... and they could only speak one language English when Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 28 they came here ... they still ... the only thing that they can tell my father ... my ... one of my ... one of the kids ... .............. ... ............. ... and you lost the thing you know ... and it's ashamed that those kids you know ... they lost their culture ... their Spanish ... and I told my sister ... she's my half-sister ... I said ... Look ... You raise your kids your own way. I said ... Why? ... I said ... You didn't let them know that their language ... let them run away from it. And it's your fault. Which ... you know ... now you need a bilingual ... The oldest one she said ... Well, I'm going to make a decision and take some Spanish. And she went to college in some little town out of Denver ... and took Spanish lessons. And then she took a vacation ... her and her husband to Mexico ... all over. And she was thrilled to death you know ... because she knew how to speak Spanish ... you know. (laughter) But sometimes we lose something ... LG: Sure. JL: ... and it's not ... it's us ourselves that we don't show our children you know. LG: Well, we don't have very much longer so can I ask ... I would like to kind of go around and say ... Are there any specific events or topics or individuals that you feel should be included in an exhibit to make it an exhibit that would talk about the Tejano experience particularly from an El Paso point of view?Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 29 RN: People? LG: People or events or topics. CC: One of the things ... I'm not sure that somebody has brought ... probably at some point ... have mentioned certain things that should be recognizable ... would be ... for instance ... I know that we mentioned the .............. Expedition ... LG: Uh-huh. CC: ... uh ... about ..... known fact that the first Thanksgiving happened in this region ... which is probably been already said ... right? ... ........... ... 50 years ... 50 years before Plymouth Rock ... LG: I don't want you thinking about what has already been said ... I want you thinking of really important ... CC: So that's for our area, I think, is very important ... also the first European ... well ... the first play that ever occurred in this hemisphere ... or this northern hemisphere ... happened in ... from this area ... which was also with the ............... Expedition ... Cabeza de Vaca of course ... but that probably pertains to the rest of Texas also because he came up through the Rio Grande from ... LG: Right. CC: ... from the south. So these are some ... some historical information .... LG: How about you Joe?Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 30 JL: I think that the Spanish language came over when .......... came here with the Indians and this is where the Spaniards and the Indians come ... and that's the language of the Spanish king ... what is ... ....... come out here ... wasn't it? If I'm right or wrong I think this is where the Spanish people ... the Mexican-Americans came over ... and then the people from Mexico ... and the Indians ... ........ of the Indians got together and this is ........ Spanish ... this is where the history of the Spanish people here ... Mexico and the U.S. and the border is why we are Mexican-American ... because of the mixture of the cultures ... LG: Rene? RN: It's important that we do look at the past and the important events of the past. Such as was just spoken about. But also I think what's important is that we try to take different parts of our decades and the struggles of the '30s and the '40s and how the Mexican people that came to the United States because they chose what they interpret as a better way of life ... economics was the driving force. I would say in 90% of the cases economics was the driving force. It still is today. It's where the migrant worker ... for many, many people who come to the North because there's opportunities ... opportunities to ... to enhance their life. And so that struggle, I think, needs to be part of our history and part Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 31 of our way of life and how because our parents were the risk-takers that they were ... regardless of what drove them here ... it offered the following generations opportunities to mainstream and to develop some of the advantages that all of us as Americans know today. And so ... in a way it's not so different than from the immigrants from Europe that came to the East Coast and from the struggle from the Vietnamese that only recently came to the United States and the Asians that are coming from China and so ... all of us kind of ... it's an economic struggle ... so those are important parts that have to be brought up in an exhibit. LG: .... Any other contemporary issues? CC: No ... it's just basically I think that the objective for this type of exhibit should at least point out or shatter some misconceptions about ... about things, events, places. You know ... I mean ... I tried to think of an example ... what Rene just mentioned ... finished mentioning something about the migrant workers ... LG: Uh-huh. CC: ... and how maybe some people think that they take jobs away and stuff. And people don't realize that if it wasn't for migrant workers ... I mean some of our economic status would not be the way it is if it wasn't for that ... you know they pay taxes ... I know I was reading not too long ago about in Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 32 California alone ... I mean I think in 2 days if you'd take all that labor away ... I mean the whole economic ... it would just collapse. LG: Uh-huh. CC: And these are some of the ... I mean I'm just using that as an example ... LG: Sure. CC: I mean I could go on and on and on ... many things ... but I think the important thing is that what this exhibition should do ... as well as enlighten the people with the historical events and stuff ... it's also shatter ... shatter some of these misconceptions. LG: Okay. How about you Joe? you want to say anything more ........ that? ......... JL: No ... I think that they said the right thing about it. Economically ... that's why we all come in here. LG: Uh-huh. JL: And everybody's looking for the best. And we're trying to struggle to get more ... to be better ... and better ourself. And this is the way all these people were moved ... either go forward for a better economic for your family and everything ... and I think this is what ... what we've been talking about ... that we should be focusing on .... LG: Okay. Is there anything that you would like to say to Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 33 kind of wrap this up? Is there any last statements you would like to make? Because we're getting kind of short on time and we have maybe 5 minutes left. RN: I enjoyed participating and I'm glad you took the initiative to come to El Paso and to interview the many people that I think are going to be an important part of your exhibit. I think your exhibit ... I had the pleasure of being there ... LG: Good. RN: ... and I think that you're doing the right thing in upgrading it because there could be a lot of myth there ... LG: There is. (laughter) There is. (laughter) RN: ... obviously you're talking to some people now that ... straight from the horse's mouth who have lived it ... LG: Yes. Uh-huh. RN: ... and so I ... LG: That's why we're here. RN: ... I thank you for doing that. LG: How about? Anybody would like to make some kind of last statement? CC: Uh ... well ... just ... yeah ... the same thing that I think is very important that this exhibition be ... seen in the right light ... is as important ... is as important for the rest of the Texans and is also as important to even our Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 34 own popula ... our own Mexican-Americans ... because ... somebody just not long ago mentioned ... and I had never heard El Paso being referred to as "................" ... (laughter) ... and ................ is the term ... what would you call it? ... the indigenous term for the Southwest ... LG: Uh-huh. CC: ... but it's the "Belly button of ............." SW: Oh dear. (laughter) CC: Because it's right in the heart and everybody ... it's been mentioned several times that at some point ... there is at some point in their lives or in the past had some connection either they just crossed through here ... LG: Uh-huh. CC: ... or whatever ... but it's very important even to the Mexican-Americans to be ... for El Paso to be portrayed. RN: It's almost exactly in the middle of a 2,000 mile border ... El Paso. ..: Uh-huh. LG: That's right. Joe did you want to make any last statement here? JL: Well, I want to thank you for interviewing us. I think that the City of El Paso is going to be ... showing something for the City of El Paso ... you're recognizing us that we are ... what you have here ... and I'm very proud that you people Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 35 came over and interviewed us. I think this is something that is going to help the City of El Paso and the border towns. LG: We're very grateful to have had the opportunity to come and to talk to you ... I had never been off of the highway in El Paso before. I have driven through El Paso but this is the first time I've had the opportunity to get off the highway and see a little bit .... JL: I think you had a better turn-out this time because we were invited about ... when was it? ... about 2 months ago? ... when Leo was here and Galvan were here ... LG: Uh-huh. JL: ... and they were supposed to have an interview like this one here at the Lincoln Memorial and the only one that showed was me and my wife ... LG: Uh-huh. SW: Oh dear. JL: They were very disappointed. LG: Well, I'm glad that you all came and it's really ... well ... it's a stretch for us to be able to meet people who are geographically hundreds of miles away ... I pass I-10 regularly where it says El Paso ... 284 miles ... ..: Uh-huh. (laughter) LG: ... that's a fair distance. SW: There's this wonderful pride that you've felt today.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 36 LG: Yes ... yes. ..: Uh-huh. SW: From those of you ... it's just ... and you're experiences are very different from Edinburg and San Antonio ... ..: Yeah. LG: ........ CC: I just ... SW: ....... mention ....... LG: Yesterday evening we took a ride through the scenic loop ... the Rim Road ... ..: The Rim Road ... (laughter) LG: ... saw a little tiny taste of the mountains ... (mixed conversation) ... it was wonderful ... it really was. JL: Have you driven down the Valley? LG: No ... I haven't yet ... some of the other group has ... we just came ... we've been here ... some people arrived Thursday and they have done a little bit more ... some of us ... Sally and I were in a group that came in yesterday ... JL: When are you leaving? when are you leaving? LG: We're leaving this evening at 7. JL: Oh. LG: So we've got this afternoon to do a lot ... (mixed conversation) ........ JL: I'm pushing for the Missions.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 37 LG: Hey ... well ... we hope to do that ... some of us hope to do that this afternoon. JL: Every chance that I have to get somebody out here ... LG: We've stretched this as long as we could so that we could get ... JL: ..... to the Missions because they always talk about the Missions of San Antonio and you see those Missions from here ... I mean they're old ... the oldest in the U.S. ... and this is what we're trying to promote tourism out here ... RN: Yeah. That's what we're trying to do. CC: I would probably ... I'd show you ... maybe give you a tour of the murals. (laughter) LG: I would love to see the murals. I don't know if you know but we do hope to have a mural as part of the .... CC: And please keep me in mind in whatever capacity to be ... I know ... my ... as well as being an artist ... I think I am also an advocate in terms of ... when doing community or public arts ... that it's approached in a kind of a team effort type of approach rather than an individual ... like I mentioned earlier ... LG: Yes. CC: ... where you get your historians ... you get your various constituency that you're trying to portray in order to properly reflect the true concerns ... and the true ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 38 (mixed conversation) LG: That is exactly the way that we wanted to it ... it's the hard way of doing it. JL: We have a mural that was painted on a business right across from the Socorro Mission ... a beautiful ... it has the Rio Grande and it has the Mission here and you see people crossing the Rio Grande ... it's beautiful. ..: You ever seen it? CC: Which one? The one in .... ? JL: Socorro. ..: Socorro. CC: Socorro. No ... I've not ... maybe I have ... JL: See ... I'm trying to get you up there too. LG: You need ......... (laughter) (mixed conversation) CC: I'm in the Upper Valley ... what you call the Upper Valley ... I'm on the other side ... I'm in the Upper Valley ... (laughter) (mixed conversation) CC: He's in the Lower Valley ... I'm in the Upper Valley. LG: He focused. Right? He knows exactly where he's focused. (laughter) SW: I'm really curious to find out ... and I missed part of your conversation about the bilingual ... how do you think is a good way to do this? On this ... in any area? What is it? Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg - UT-El Paso / Laurie Gudzikowski (Tape 2) 39 Is it the written word? Is is the spoken? RN: As far as educating our youth? SW: ....... LG: As far as communicating I think. SW: If we're going to do part of this bilingual ... how do we do it the most effective way? You know ... do we do it with supplemental ....... CC: We talked about ... we mentioned about this laser disc thing where you just ... push the button ... you have an option ... LG: And that's one ... SW: Oh. LG: And that's one thing that we will do. JL: What language is this in? RN: Yeah. LG: And I know that's something that we will do but like she said ... there's all kinds of ... SW: Yeah ... really ... ..: .............. LG: ... technicalities involved and such .. (mixed conversation) .... END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES. |
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