THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso
INTERVIEW WITH: Charles Martin, Norma Chavez,
................. (Tape 1)
DATE: 21 May 1994
PLACE: University of Texas at El Paso, Texas
INTERVIEWERS: Tom Shelton, Matt Solorio
Shelton: This is the Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting, May 21, 1994, University of Texas at El Paso. Institute of Texan Cultures representatives are Matt Solorio and Tom Shelton.
Martin: ... from the Rio Grande Valley so I ....... I teach Texas History and ....... the whole problem of trying to do these kinds of activities and the Institute of Texan Cultures are a member since 1968 so ... I'm interested in these kinds of things. My name is Charles Martin and I'm in the History Department here at UT ....
TS: Where did you grow up?
CM: In Westlaco in the Rio Grande Valley. So I grew up as an Anglo basically and as sort of a southerner ... you know ... in a larger context ... just like some Mexican-Americans ..... Hispanics but that's sort of a broad one. Of course, most people don't know what Anglos are outside of the border area anyway. It's not a term that used too widely around here because some Anglos don't like the term Anglo around here so now they're non-Hispanics whites. So they generally don't like that either ... they generally dislike that even worse. Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: Now they're writing in the paper about that.
CM: Right. Where I grew up in the Rio Grande Valley ... my parents came there in the 1920s ... my mother taught in some of the Mexican-American schools in the 1930s in the Valley ... and into the '40s. So I grew up down there. And the schoolroom seems fine ...
TS: Excuse me, but how long have you lived in El Paso?
CM: Since 1978. The first 21 years of my life were in the Rio Grande Valley or South Texas in Kingsville. Then from the age of 21 through about 32 or so I was in Louisiana or Mississippi and then we came back north of Dallas and then in '76 and '78 out here ... so ... I've lived in different parts of the border ... I've also been outside.
..: So you're a historian ... that's perfect.
TS: Okay, then I'll get you. We can't talk at the same time because this is not a very sophisticated machine ...
..: Actually it should be okay.
..: Yeah.
..: Yeah. If we just put it in the center of the table.
TS: Sometimes ... like yesterday ... ....... talking at the same time, the voices would ...........
..: Mushy.
TS: Yeah.
NC: Okay. I'm Norma Chavez and I'm from El Paso and I was Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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born and raised here ... I'm a part-time student ... I work with United ............... community activity and different issues and I organized the Loretta Parade for the Pontif visit and the Charro Parade last year for the ........... visit and we're organizing a march for C....... Chavez ... I'm ... you know, just a community person.
..: My name is ............. is really started working in the community ......... in the Chicano Studies Program was brought in by Dr. ................ I retired two years ago. I was still working at ............. and so I am very well acquainted with all the programs and ................ chicano ....
..: Where did you grow up?
..: I grew up ..... born and raised ............... Been here all of my life. So .......
NC: I was born and raised here and I was in Austin for 10 years ... until 198..
..: Did you go to school up there?
NC: I went up there for about a year. And ....... Austin.
..: Everybody .........
NC: Yeah. I came back to UT .................... family.
TS: You commented when they had the film about the Tejanos ... what did you think about the term "Tejano?" If we were going to have one label hanging above the entire exhibit ... what would you like it to be? Like over the German area it Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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says German. What would you like for this exhibit to have up at the top?
NC: I think you have to have Tejano and then a collage of every word that is used. Because that's who we are. And I think that's what we're more concerned with ... if you're going to do a Texas exhibit, you know, and incorporate everything then it ... you do, you know, Czech and whatever ... but a Tejano from all the regions ... you should have Chicano ... Latino ... Hispanic ... Hispano ... you know, Mexican-American ... Mexicano ... because we are just ... my mother and I are different things. And I think in families we are. So we ... if we're going to do it to educate, like you said, that would be the best thing and then if you're going to do a Czech and the whatever ... but "Tejano" alone is not going to ... people are going to be disillusioned, I think.
TS: How do you feel?
..: I feel like, like I said, I'm all of it ... all of it ... but not too many people feel ............... identified strictly as a Chicano or Mexican-American or Hispanic or Latino .......................................... all of it. So I think it would be smart to ............ what's the ..... ?
NC: Collage.
..: Collage, right ... labels ... that we have. My daughter, who lives in San Diego, California, just the other day mentioned Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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to me that ... you know ... live in California ........................... different than Texas and she said, "Momma, they will always look at me and say I'm Mexican." Okay. ......................... "Why can't they ever think of us as Americans? We are Americans. But we cannot call ourselves Americans." I am an American, I was born and raised here. But we are not allowed to be Americans ... We have to .............. ourselves and that's why ......
NC: ................... question you as Americans but they always ask us what are you? And then ... a friend of mine told me ... she's a little older ... like 30 or 40 so ... and she just said, "My father used to tell me, you know, and when they ask you what you are, don't forget you're Mexican-American. Because they always want to tell you ... oh, she's Mexican ...................." ... you know ... so ... I think that something Tejano ..... and then everybody can feel like ... well, that's what I am. And I have something else ... but I forgot ...
..: ................. Tejano with music ............ El Paso.
NC: Tejano ... music just came to El Paso ... I mean ... that's how behind we are, you know. We just got our first Tejano radio station in the last 6 months. I booked Neva Salinas from San Antonio, who is an accordian master, you know. Played Carnegie Hall at the end of April. And we, you know, had to beg people Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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to come out and everybody who did just had a great time because that's who we are. But I think as we're so close to the border we try to not be Mexicans from Mexico. We try so hard to be Hispanic so that they don't say "I'm a Mexicano." Right? And then we try to be, you know, differentiated ......... so they will know we're Mexican-American and I think that's the ... Oh, I was going to say ... on the different levels what's important is that institutions first need to write Hispanic because there's no place for Chicano or Tejano ... now the forms are getting better, but when you apply for college you are Hispanic ... white ... you know, so ... and I think when you're out with your friends ... like we were talking ... when I'd go to California and they ... hey, see the Chicanos ... hey, where're you from? ... Texas ... oh, a Tejano ... and then you'd say ... Grande ... El Paso ... oh, they we're a completely different Tejano. So, but if you're here in Texas you're just from El Paso. And then they even ................... we're different. And so I think it depends ....... we're Tejanos when we're not in Texas, right?
..: Uh-huh.
NC: So .......
..: It's a relative term.
..: It's always based on context ....... the context changes and so do terms.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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NC: Yeah. And how we talk within ourselves versus the way we talk to you are totally different. The way we talk in our homes is different. How we differentiate ... like my uncles who are conservative ... were union steelworkers here in El Paso and also got burned, you know, at the time that was part of the labor movement here, you know, which was big. And he would be like ... Ah, those Chicanos, this and that ... but he doesn't call himself a Chicano ... unless it's either a .......... or political situation ... that Chicanos have to ...................... So, I don't think El Paso, you know ... early that terms was pretty basic for me, that we're all trying to figure out ...........
..: .......... Mexicans ... I think ............ different ... definitely different from ............. don't you think so?
..: Well, when I lived in ............. the church that is in ... St. Mary's ... had a ... some kind of lunch ... some ......... to raise funds for something ... tacos .............. and I introduced myself .......... Flores ... Flores.
..: Uh-huh.
..: And ... you know ... I'm from the Valley and I appeared to be a Mexican-American .. Hispanic ... and so ... Flores ... still that ... Flores ... F-l-o-r-e-s ...
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..: Uh-huh.
..: He went ... Oh, Flores. And he said, Oh, yeah, technically, but around here nobody can pronounce it that way, so we just say "Floors" and gave up. So, I mean, there's also that aspect to it when you don't live around very many other people ..... background .............. just sort of simplify it for their simplified knowledge. It was "Floors" or ...... I also heard "Florees." He never realized that this coach was Mexican-American because they called him "Florees" ....... looked at him ... that's kind of an odd name, I wonder what that is?
TS: ......... more assimilation with the ...... Anglo cultures.
NC: With the meeting of the border we have more assimilation. And then I think ... we were like ... I was asking about the floor plan because I think the history of El Paso is very important and very special and very different because of the mass migration. We had like thousands of Mexicans coming through and I don't think it's ever been visualized, you know. And you're talking about an exhibit that you want cross cultures ... we also have to cross social class because if you do a very Hispanic middle-class and upper, you know, Spanish colonizing type thing ... you're going to have a blow-out. I mean, because our history is equally as important to poor people that migrated Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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over here that were used .....
..: That's an interesting point.
NC: Yeah. And we're talking those documented photos, right? ..... historian ... of the mass, you know, Juarez ... and the industrialization ........ industrialized move of this area is very critical ... the railroad coming in ... the Japanese ... well, Tejanos ..... Japanese-Tejanos ... right? And why we, you know, it's just like this flyer ... ... I'm doing this march ... and we have to go so crazy on the Spanish ... the proper Spanish ... .............. ... the Chicanos get mad and the Hispanics get upset if our Spanish is incorrect, you know. ................ Here on the border, where you .......... in Austin ... in San Antonio ... they're like ................. right? ... and nobody cares ... but over here ................... ............. I'm serious ... we get phone calls ... we're Chicanos ...
..: That's why a lot of the ................... Mexican-Americans ... don't like to be called Chicanos because they think Chicanos are the lower class types and I know my father ................ and that's part of .......... Chicanos ........... he would say, "Oh, I hate that word. I can't stand to listen to ......." Well, you know, I discovered I was a Chicano and I started working there ... I didn't know I was a Chicano ... and I consider myself very Mexican ... ..... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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Spanish ... I lived in Mexico City for five years while I was married to a Mexican ... and I passed ... I didn't want ........ ... I passed as a Mexican ... they thought I was from Chihuahua. And an incident came up that brought me to reality ... I thought I was completely Mexican ... but I was there in '68 when ................ was around ............. and rich kids came ........ American flag ............ ........... so they came in ... running in with the American flag ........ and I ................. my flag ............ how would you like it if it happened to yours? ... and they all looked at me like ... what's the matter with her? she's Mexican ... and my husband said ... well, you're Mexican ... I said ... that's my flag, you can't ...... my flag ... you're not ................ And that's when I discovered I'm not Mexican. .............. Anglos especially doesn't bother me because they don't know ................. .............
NC: ...................
..: When the Chicano movement started .............. waving the Mexican flag ... ................. that's not your flag ... ............... you're Americans.
NC: That American ................. is a river away versus, you know, why can German polka ... Wurstfest in New Braunsfels be a celebration of the German culture and they can have a German flag and German clothes and it's okay, but we can't do it down Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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here because we're too Mexican.
..: Well ........................................ ................................................but I know what I am now ... I'm Mexican ...
NC: Yeah.
..: And there were doctors that I thought talked to because I was using the term Chicano as the generic term when I first came here ........................................ ..................................... my wife ...... Mexico City and ..... never heard of that term ................. ................................ lower class term .....
..: Uh-huh.
NC: Yeah.
..: ........................ use ....
..: Yeah, ................... term ....
..: .... very much a class term ...
..: It's definitely a class term.
..: Mexico ....... and also Mexico City .... perspective on that.
TS: How do we bring out the social class issue in the exhibt ... using the book ... exhibit more difficult?
NC: It gets back to how you're going to do the history. If you're going to do the ... because I feel the South Texas Tejanos have a real strong identity and they know that they are in ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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you are in our occupied territory ... whereas in El Paso we don't have that mentality. And so South Texas history will be different, right? And El Paso because ... like I said ... the mass migration it really disturbs me because right now we're going through a battle of self-identity for El Paso. Because we're trying to portray us as the "Billie The Kid" town because Billie The Kid here and he escaped and this and that ... they celebrate on that day ... and you know, the guys do ..... Indians and all this ... and they're supposed to honor him with a .......... ........ But you know, this was also Pancho Villa ... this is where, you know, we ...... I mean, hid ......... ............, my grandmother, went to school downtown and the bullets went through the school and she tells us visual stories ... we have oral history in El Paso ... but we don't have it documented and I think that you should, you know, like, nobody knows that Billy The Kid's mother ............... she's Mexican and that's why he ended up over here. And if we're going to portray him and the Western in details .... portray that ... who was the general that came down here with ten thousand ... was a graduate of? ....
TS: Pershing?
NC: Yeah. I mean, here was high-tech soldier with ten thousand chasing this old bandit ... Mexican ... you know ... that's a victory for the working people ... it's kind of funny, right? Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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But that ... and also the mass migration patterns, right? ... immigration is the issue of the '90s and the next century ... and the Mexican immigrant is where the bashing is, right? ... and anybody from anyplace ... Chicago or California ... Mexico ... New York ... any Mexicano that ... everybody has a relative that came from across ... ................. you know ... right in the heart of everyone .....
..: ......... California ......... El Paso.
NC: Yeah, yeah. And it's true. This needs to be known as the ... this is Ellis Island for the Mexican community.
..: And it's also is an Ellis Island the other way too ... in the 1930s ... ............ deportations ...
NC: Yeah, exactly.
..: .... back to El Paso I think rather than through San Antonio to Laredo ... this is where people were funneled back through and evicted from the United States.
NC: So I know you talked to a lot of real conservative people and they'll tell you how great and wonderful the West was ... West was and this and that ... I'm telling you we're 70 percent of the population and that's not what we want ... our people ... our children to know ... that's why they're confused. They need to know ... we are the Ellis Island like you said ... both ways ... when we were accepted and when we were rejected ... we have to go through there. And now we're doing the same thing. Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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In that history they're putting a steel wall, you know, to keep out people of color, because they don't put steel walls on the Canadian border ... those people are white ... but they do it here because they don't want us. So ... ....... ethnic ... ............. ........................... like this store-front ... Tejano businesses. If you go into South El Paso, right?, you know ......................
..: ..........
..: Romanticize.
..: Uh-huh.
NC: Yeah, but we're past that.
..: Right. It seems a little trite.
NC: And maybe I have a politicized opinion but to me El Paso, especially now, it is an immigration issue which is important ... the migration pattern is absolutely adamant ... has to be part of this ............ And I don't know if anybody else has said that other than David. .............. .................. her last name is Salazar because I'm Salazar and I remembered that ... and I think her first name ... I forgot her first name ... do you know?
..: There's a ........................... one person .................................... Billy The Kid's last words were ............................. because he was murdered in the middle of the night and somebody came in and Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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said ...................... and they shot him ... supposedly ............................................. because I think .................................. distant relatives ....... shot him ....... because in New Mexico there was this melage of cultural mixture of Anglo and Hispano there that mixed together into .......... not everybody mixed ........ culturally mixed circles there ... which is one reason we had trouble finding him because he kind of blended in and was protected by the Hispanos in New Mexico.
NC: Yeah. And also the .................... Trail and the Mission ..... because I know you talked to those people ... you need to be very careful too ... I mean ... yes, there's a lot of the monied people that support that ... but there's also a lot of angry Chicanos that are going to do a nice little budget next year on that First Thanksgiving ... because we're not going to be the Plymouth Rock and the Pilgrims and all that crap which you're trying to shove down our throats ... but you know ... we need to celebrate that El Paso has the first Native American ... right? ... am I right? ... tribe in the State of Texas ... is that correct? ....
..: Tiguas?
NC: The Tiguas ....
..: ................. located here actually ....that's .......................Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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NC: But ... and everywhere else was there established tribes there?
..: Well ... ............... there were others ....... still there .... Tiguas .................... and basically ..... because ........................ pueblos ..................... and Spaniards ...................... to loyal Indians who came were mostly from Ysleta Pueblo ... and so the Tiguas ... this will be very touchy ........... Tiguas ........ the Tiguas are basically the loyal Indians that evacuated with the Spaniards and resettled here. And did not participate in ...................... and remained loyal to the Spanish. And that's the ............... tribe .... pueblo here .... by leaving the northern pueblo and coming here. So we'd never ... to my knowledge ... ....... talk to the about the origins of their location ...... and the symbolism of being a loyal Indian tribe as opposed to their cousins who participated in the rebellion and that might be very tricky in a Native American context of how you define yourselves.
TS: Before we get too far off that point ... and this is getting off the subject ... but if you're interested in that ... Leslie Burns has a real good rapport with some of the leaders in the Tigua Reservation ... might want to talk with her ... she might have some insight ... along with Charles'.
NC: Yeah. Because I know that like if you drive ... did you Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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all drive to Fort Southern? ... it's over here where ....
..: I didn't. I just got here yesterday but ....
NC: Would you ... you know ... like the oldest fort ... right? .... Mexico .... early ....
..: ... I don't know forts real well ....
TS: ...... Mexico?
NC: Yeah. It's outside of New Mexico, but anyway, supposedly ... I mean ... and this is where ............ he ... out of ..... not a mountain ... but a small ... in a distance and he's on the Mexican side and the Fort Southern is on the American side and they're communicating by light and he says, "The white man has ... is communicating through God. Our days are numbered." And this is like the great leader from this area. Who is it? It's one of the Apaches ... Geronimo.
..: Geronimo.
NC: And so we have the Apaches ... they are very close to us ... we had the ... and I think ........ was always criticized because I was Morena and my cousins were ... light complected and ... you go through a different racism within our own family.
..: Definitely.
TS: ........
NC: Okay. Because la ............ you know ... la ......... ...................
..: ..........Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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NC: .... la .......... you know ... marry a white man and you'll get rid of those features. And you know ... I know ... but then I learned to ... yeah, I'm proud of the way I look, I like my Indian nose ... you know ... but that is not where I was ten years ago. I mean ... it was awful ... you were so confused. And I think for those students and youth and gang members and all those ... they need to identify with who they are. You know, we need to have them look at themselves and be proud of our color you know ... and our ... why .... because their parents don't know the history ... much less them ... they're 3rd ... 4th generation ... they don't really ... can't identify who they are. You know ... they know they're dark and they come into sub-cultures but we're not educating them ... so ... we want you to do that.
TS: Okay.
NC: At the same time I know you have like I said ... this cross-mixture ... but you know I think perhaps .... got you know ... the Chicano movement here and I know was involved in that ... I was young but ...... major things here and we've never documented ............ I mean we had high school walk-outs and a lot of the community leaders today are from that era. I mean ...
..: A lot of them .....
NC: A lot of them are like directors of .............. and Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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we're talking they did the high school shut-down ... they shut-down the mayor's office ... I mean ... there was just a lot of things. Now I know this is not a Chicano exhibit but again ... I think that immigration ... to me ... is very critical. I'm a revolution immigrant. I don't know ... my grandparents came ... and I think your categories ...... El Paso ... 'cause I've tried to figure out ... how come we're all so screwed up? ... because it depends on when you came over ... you know ... 'cause we're revolution immigrants ... it's different than the first generation today ... and it's also different than the ones during the radical '60s which is were the activistas came in and the movement ... 'cause they were first generation.
..: ..... first ones ...... Mexicans that came when my parents came ... it's a different attitude. That's why immigrants know ....... ........................
..: Well, of course, we get brain drain from Mexico too in El Paso ... with doctors and physicians and business men who invest and bring money ...
..: Uh-huh. A lot of them ..........
..: ... out of Mexico into here too and ......... big numbers.
..: My grandfather was a judge and a lawyer in ......... and he came during the revolution ... my father was only six years old ... so I would think ..... Texas ... my grandfather is buried in ...... El Paso, but on my mother's side ... my grandparents Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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......... came down to El Paso ... stayed there awhile and went on back to Chihuahua and they're buried in Chihuahua. There's a lot of that ... a lot of people don't realize that Mexicans ... most of them ... would really like to go back ... they're coming in because there's nothing in Mexico. They're starving. That's basically it. There's the very rich ... there's very, very hungry in Mexico ... and that's why they're coming.
TS: You're speaking about recent arrivals?
..: Recent arrivals ... they're the ones that haven't got a thing ... ............ Mexico ........ and then they find out about all the freebies and that's what's going right now ... a very different generation. Right now they ....
NC: ........
..: ........ no ....
NC: .... abuse of neighbors ... with ..... conditions for the border immigrants who are the worst of any where in the country ... because they ... you know ... they live on nothing ... in boxes in the colonias of Juarez. And I think that we have to start thinking globally you know with NAFTA we have to think global social justice ... where ... where does our responsibility as human come in for poor people? and also are we going to keep them oppressed and are we going to try to integrate them into lower class and then middle class? and how do we not steal you know .......? I don't know what we Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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have ... I think my grandfather looks you know .......... kind of and he also looks ........ Mexico ...
..: ........
NC: ... but anyway ... yeah ... you know ... we need to be ... like I always saw this happening within Chihuahua ... you know ... which is an incredible, rich, cultural state ... I mean ... they are just destroying the ......... and they're destroying the .............. you know ............
but you know what I'm saying ... there's so much history that we don't know ... you could do a whole exhibit on El Paso.
TS: Really.
..: Oh, yeah.
NC: And on the Mexican-American culture.
TS: Let me break just a minute ....
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
TS: .... where people work with and you know ............ circulation area .....
..: Also we have to ............................ 22 years since we did it the last time?
..: That's right.
..: We're doing it for the next 20 years let's say and again ... health ... you know if you focus on ..... sense of what's happening today ... like well ... in 10 years from now that's Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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........ that's reflects not a broader pattern but it reflects what they were thinking about in 1994 which was a particular orientation ... now things have shifted and now this seems out of date and dated ... so ........ how do you present historical experiences over several centuries in such a way that reflects current interests but will not seem dated within a few years and will be enduring so it won't seem obsolete ... like it was the way people interpreted that history in 1994 but peculiar to 1994 ... how do you ... ...... all these different things over time ... over generations ... over classes ... and put them into something that will speak to ... someone who is politically conscious ... someone who has seen a lot of things from different perspectives ... someone who grows up not even speaking Spanish ... someone who is coming from the Valley and has been in the US only for two years ... somebody that grew up in the ranch country and their family has been in the ranch country for four generations ... how can all these people find something that seems appropriate in these kinds of things? ...... each one of you should have taken your perspective ....
NC: Right.
..: ... but also how do you find something that speaks to all of these people to the extent that anything can ... since there's obviously more diversity than people realized ...
TS: Exactly.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: ... that previously within that community of Mexican ....
..: It's a tough job.
NC: Yeah. And ... again ... but I think if this is important ... and I'm here ... I have another very important meeting to be at ... but I'm here because I think it is important that you will establish identity for the next 20 years and we're telling you that you give us this image of the ........ Spanish community ... we are not a Spanish community ... we are a Mexican-American ... we are a community of immigrants ... we're first ... a lot of .... we'll constantly be a community of first generation immigrants ... and I'm not saying that we need to portray ... but I do think that we have never had the visual of the mass migrations and what that meant to the United States of America ... you know ... really ...
TS: People in the other parts of Texas, I don't believe they understand this ...
..: They don't understand.
TS: ... that the model of El Paso is an Ellis Island and that's something that I think should be incorporated into the exhibit.
..: The ......
TS: How could you do that ... put a video through ...
..: A video would be .......
NC: There's footage ... there's actually footage ...
..: ... the simplest way to do it I think.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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TS: .........
NC: The 1910 revolution. There's photos. There's definitely .....
..: That affects San Antonio too ... a lot of immigrants, like Henry Gonzales' father went to San Antonio during the revolution and you got all classes.
..: Uh-huh.
NC: Yeah, you could tie it in ... San Antonio and El Paso.
..: You've got all classes ... you've got classes ... you could tie like the grandchildren of that revolution and grandfathers today from this ... and you've got generals ... landowners ... you've also got peasants ... you've got people of all levels ... fleeing Mexico during the revolution ... so you have the class diversity and you have some that come and then go back and some that stay ...
NC: And then you have the braceros.
..: Uh-huh. That's another ...
NC: Natives .. which is ... but see the patterns continues ... continues ... and then they were deported and not accepted and then we ... Americans ... you know ... ....... American flag and ............ struggling because we're trying to be too Mexican because then they ......... as what they want deported out of here you know. So I think that's good because it is San Antonio and El Paso ... this migration ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: And ........ Texas.
NC: ...........
..: Corpus Christi.
NC: And where does it ... you know ... where do these people end up? All over the United States. Now we are very much a part of the American ... you know ... tapestry ... is what the ............ right?
..: Uh-huh.
NC: We're a tapestry ... the United ...
..: Immigration ....................... much. ......... Tejanos have always lived in Texas ...
..: Right.
..: ... and maybe that makes them something ............. less authentic if they ... it always seems to me there's an emphasis on stressing 3rd and 4th and 5th generation ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... as if you're a more recent immigrant that somehow you're not as good a Tejano if you've come more recently from someplace else.
TS: But you're also saying that many people that come to El Paso end up going to California and other places whereas more people that come to San Antonio stay in Texas ... is that ...?
NC: Most of the people ... my friends from San Antonio ... Alice ... South Texas ... they are so strong ... they are 4th Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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and 5th generation Tejanos ... which blows me away ... because I'm like ... God ... you know ... how ... we've been here so long and nobody know it ... except they do ... they have a strong identity. The Tejano music is South Texas ... I think if you're going to incorporate El Paso with an image and show migration ... show the Mission trails and that in a politically correct way ... and show ... the music here is mariachi and is the ..................................... the trios ... who are not Tejano ... not really ... I mean ... it's coming ... we're familiar with it but the ................ and oral history was passed through the ballard and a lot of the trios that used to come over here ... you know ... El Paso used to have a strong music scene ... which is my thing on music ... and my mother used to tell me that the blacks and the Mexicans had to play south of the freeway ... Fats Domino came in ... he couldn't play in the white community and there was some bar in Juarez ... right? ... that they used to all the black ... you know ... Ray Charles ....... ........ you know ... nobody knows that history ... nobody knows that history ... I mean ... I know a lot of the rockers from Austin because I lived up there that are real into the history ... right? ... they're all the Lubbock ... you know ... Joey Lee and Jesse Taylor and all those guys ... well, I remember playing El Paso when I was in high school ... and I remember there was a stronger music thing ... so we Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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have the cowboy ... what is the Lubbock ... 'cause see Lubbock,
Texas, is the whole ...... ... it's the cowboy rock ... that's
where ... you know ... Buddy Holley ... .......... and all that
... and I think you should incorporate that music scene into
the Lubbock and then these guys came here ... they had already
heard about El Paso ... and then the Mexican music we had ...
the .... like I said ... the romantic ... the ballards ... the
mariachi music is going to be much more appropriate than
......... ... you know ... you put ........ here ... people
are going to freak out and go ... we danced to that. Growing
up we had the bands ... what were they? ... Little Mike and
the Night Drifters ... in the '50s ... they still play ... and
that was ... I know Kiki ................ from the music office
... he came down here and looked at stuff ... and here's that
... I took him to hear Little Mike ... and he goes ... that
is the Latin R&B sound ... that's ...................... was
the first Mexican-American DJ who ... was a Chicano DJ ... I
mean ... doing that Spanglis ... which was very much El Paso.
And so ... you know ... we're .......... just real different
... you know ... I don't think any of this will ever come up
because we are Mexicans no matter how ................ we are.
..: Well, because of the ...
NC: ..........
..: ... Anglo ..... Texas ...
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..: ...........
NC: ...........
..: A portion of the Anglo past is what he's interested in ....
..: ...... talking to all these people ........
NC: And we get disgusted ... but we're just like ....
..: ...... El Paso, Texas.
..: Well, that's a sort of an Anglo ........ of Billy The Kid ... gunfights ... some popular ... you know ... very simple popular mass ... sort of novels ... that Hollywood in the '50s made into gun-fighter movie stuff ... and so that's especially ... gun-fighters and outlaws ... it's what drives our ... you know ... professional western historians nuts ... because to some extent the main-stream media is hardly the image of what the West ..... gun-fighters and slaughtered Indians and ... nobody else but Indians and Whites out there ... except an occasional Buffalo Soldier maybe ... but ....
NC: Yeah. .... Buffalo Soldiers ... right? ...
..: ...... 1950s ... Year of the West ... and he's the authority on El Paso history ... although Dr. Timmons has the book on El Paso history that's a more balanced kind of history approach ............. gun-fighters and shoot-em-ups and as I say ... it's not even really the Anglo West ....... that particular niche ... but that's what the people ... ask somebody about Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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El Paso history ... that's not Oscar Martinez ... and it's not ... really to some extent Dr. Timmons ... who ...... popular image has it ... which is the shoot-em-ups ...
NC: Yeah.
..: ... which is a part of the West ... I mean ... it's ....
NC: It is a part ... like ... I mean ... I think like ... The Young Guns ... right? ... .......... everybody thought ... Oh, El Paso ... The Old West ... we still have wagons and everything ... and like I said ... but ... I don't think we are that ... but we are also the industrial movement of the Texas ... right? ... the railroad really is what opened up El Paso up as a community ... period ... and there's Japanese-Mexican-Americans ... and we were ...
..: Chinese.
NC: Yeah, yeah. We've always been a colonized community ... it's always been under .............
..: ..... these are differences you've been stressing ... what are things that are similar to other parts of Texas? ...... Tejano culture ... the church is the same ... what are things ... that tie ... would be similar between El Paso ... we tend to emphasize our differences assuming everybody knows the similarities ....
NC: The language of course.
..: Language ......... languages ... yes ... since we're next Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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to Mexico and has its input as opposed to San Antonio ... we don't have as much of an influx ...
..: .........
..: ... ........ ranch country where people are ......
..: What difference ........
..: Well, I think the Mexican-Americans ... ........... El Paso have a better command of Spanish ... definitely.
NC: Yeah.
..: Because we're exposed to it on a daily basis. And knowing you have people from South Texas and their Spanish is not that great.
NC: Yeah. And they say .................... Their slang is real different ... like our family ... Spanish is different.
..: So ... that's .... that's the difference ... but we're basically ... we basically feel the same ... Mexican-Americans.
TS: What about the ....... are there many non-Catholics in the community here in El Paso?
NC: Uh ... I'd say a ...
..: Yes, there's quite a few now ...... 25 years it's changed.
..: It has?
NC: Yeah ... I don't ... I'm a strong ..... I'm really anti-organized religion ... but I have a strong faith ... and I don't feel like the word is wrong ... or I believe the Bible .......... ... but organized religion ... I have a problem ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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I don't know if Texans or El Paso has the church like San Antonio.
TS: Like the Day of the Dead is a big celebration in San Antonio ... but what about here?
NC: It's not here. It's starting to, okay? I think that we probably know a little more ... and I think it's the educational systems fault but ... .......................... production ... which an excellent production that they show every year on November 20th ... and you know ... it's gotten real popular ... but it's a major production and they've done it with nothing ... no money ... you know ... their own money ...
TS: What is that?
NC: It's a portrayal of the Mexican Revolution ... on the anniversary ... and it comes out every November ... to me that's more celebrated than the Dias los Muertes ... okay ... is that ..................... because we're so many revolutionary immigrants? I don't know ... I've never seen revolution..... in San Antonio or Austin.
..: .... (no)
..: .... ....... of the Dead ... ...... in San Antonio ...................... it an indigenous celebration or its become accepted on a wider basis and if you were down there and you know ... looking at all the stuff and ........ San Antonio seems to be more conscious of celebrating ... I think they conscious of celebrating something ... this means now its gone Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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beyond ... the sort of spontaneous indigenous ... and its become now a community kind of festival ... which is good ... its much broader ... and that it seems to me ... a little bit more authentic in the sense of people celebrating it because ... this is what your family always does ... its now become a big community kind of thing. But we have Juarez and so whatever is celebrated in Juarez ... if you have ........ if you live in ......... barrio ... you're always aware pf what's celebrated in Juarez ... and then of course that means that's the Nortenos celebration ... which isn't the same as Mexico City ... also ... so we say ... it's Mexican that's really ... Northern Mexico culture ......
NC: Yeah.
..: ... that's influencing ..........
..: ..........
TS: What about All Soul's Day for you? Would ...
..: For me?
TS: ... would you just go to mass? would you visit the cemetery?
..: ........................
TS: And that would be it?
..: That would be it. We do not ...
NC: It's not an El Paso tradition.
..: ... practice the rituals that they do in South Mexico and Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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a lot of people still do it here in El Paso. ...............................
NC: ..............
..: ..................................
TS: Do you know about anyone here having an altar at home? A Day of the Dead altar?
..: No. That's one of the things that I wasn't too crazy about.
NC: What was that?
..: ...................... public ............
NC: My grandfather was ........ he had a whole altar in the back of his house ... everything ... everything ... but one thing I think in El Paso ... we probably have more .............................................. than probably any other place.
..: .....
NC: I mean you can drive all over ... right? ... and the home shrines and ....
..: Sometimes I get ......................
NC: Yeah ... on the patios ... the sides ... you could ride around ... we could take you and you'll probably see different versions ... that is more ... .......... celebrate ... it's more of a personal home visual ... you know ... of ... the house ... 'cause our house is very different than South Texas ... right?Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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TS: How do you feel ... because there has been talk of having a house in the exhibit ... a portion of a house ... how do you feel about that? ... and if you are in favor of it ... what should it look like?
NC: You're going to get into the social class again.
..: That's right.
NC: You're going to into social class.
..: .............. I've been there for 22 years ... ....... go down to Socorro and other areas ...
NC: But ... I think we all have the image of our mother's home ... my grandmother's home ... you know ... my mother's home ... my grandparents ... my father was a Korean veteran ... so I'm of that generation ... that's why I'm saying ... this is all so generational and when we came in ... but ... my house ... in my house I have everything Mexican ... and .................... but because ... and I have a lot of my grandmother's furniture ... when she died ... you know ... I wanted ... family ... I want ... I want ... I'll take it ... I'll take it ... nobody wants it ... but so I think that's what you're getting at ... right? ... something that we're familiar with ... because I feel like ... yes, there's a home ... even though at my friend's parents anywhere ... and there's just that warmth ... there's just something about that is a Mexican home. I don't know how you would do that ... I really don't.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: I don't know how you can.
TS: Do you think it should even be done at all? To show the Mexican setting?
NC: You would have to have a ............ you know ... that's the only way I could feel like you couldn't insult ... and have someone ... she's like ... I guess ... like my mother ... that ... because our house was Americanized and Mexican .....
..: There's nothing different about ......... that you could portray.
NC: Yeah ... but your mother's house was I'm sure different ... my grandmother's house was different. It did have those relics and I can't tell you what it is ... I don't know. It's just different.
..: .......
..: The ....... maybe.
..: ........ not just contemporary too ... so its also ... as in the case as of 1920 or 1848 ...
NC: Yeah ... what era are you going to do? is it going to be a '60s era or ...... ? '50s ... you know ... I mean that's ... I don't know how you would do that. 'Cause if you just ... if you put pan dulce and a big ole pink wall ... you know ... you're going to mess people up ... although I like that ... you know ... that's great ... you know ... some people would ....... I don't know ... I don't know if you could do that. Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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I like the bakery and the aroma bakery ... I like that ... because the mother ... the home ... I don't know ... you ......... frioles ... cookies ... the aromas are not just bread ... the tamales ... the un- ... you know ... the lids that don't match any of the pots and pans because they don't throw anything away ... right? ... and you know ... that to me ... my mother's kitchen ... even though she's modernized ... she won't throw anything away ... so we've got everything ...
..: Yeah ... the bakery ..........
TS: ...........
..: ....... people that would walk in there and smell the bread ............ remember something pleasant ............... just to buy the bread ......
TS: So if you were doing one room in the house ... it would be the kitchen?
..: The kitchen would ........
NC: Yeah. The kitchen is where everything happens in a Mexican family.
..: Yeah.
NC: Where you tell your mother you're pregnant ... where you tell your mother you're getting a divorce ... where you tell your mother you're gay ... I mean ... it all happens in the kitchen ... right?
..: Uh-huh.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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TS: And that would ...
NC: Turned out that she's ...........
TS: And that would be easier to do ...
..: Yeah.
TS: ... the kitchen of an upper class wouldn't necessarily be all that different ...
..: No.
TS: ... from a lower class kitchen.
NC: And I think that ... again ... you go back into the structure of ... 'cause I lived over there in Austin and I had a house in the barrio in East Austin ... and they're wood-framed houses ... okay ... here in El Paso in the barrio they are cinder block homes ... so the interior ... you know ... like ... maybe chile ...... hanging ... the garlic ... you know ... because we're always cooking ... you know ... and I don't know ... calendars ... Mexican calendars ... about a 100 of them ... you know ... I don't know ... I mean that's my vision ... but I don't know ... that would be hard ... I don't know how you would do that ... to not ... and then El Paso ... are you going to one for every one ... it's not going to work ... are you going to do one for every ... are you going do a kitchen of South Texas? ... a kitchen of El Paso? ... and a kitchen of Lubbock?
..: Well, I'll give you a for instance ... my mother used to make tortillas every single day ... but who make tortillas Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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nowadays? ... we all buy them ... so that's the difference.
NC: ...........
TS: Yeah.
..: I don't know what ... if you want to be contemporary or you want to be historical ... ...........................
TS: But someone who ... say from Minnesota ... who knows nothing about this culture ... you would pick an older period of time to ......?
..: ............. uh-huh. And I remember my mother used to have one of those wooden stoves and everything was cooking at the same time ... the beans ... the rice ... the chili ...... ... all those ........... and the tortillas ...
NC: And I think Mexicanos ... Chicanos ... Latinos ... we are ... faith people ... you know ... we've been through so much ... there would be a crufix ... a bible ... or both ... you know ... because I know my ... both my grandmothers ... you know ... were ... there was ... you know ... ....... house ... and that would have to be in the bedroom ... even if it's in the kitchen ... that was always ... you know ... the proverb ... you know ... .................... ... you know ... the ................ that they give you ... out of the Proverbs they would read to you and so ... I don't know if you would have a person that would be ... I think the mother is very important in the Mexican culture ... the mother is the strength Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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and I don't know how you would do that ... yet on Mother's Day ... I think that could be something that could be incorporated as a common ... you remember we were talking common? ... ........... even though here in El Paso because in Mexico it's a few days afterwards ... but ...
..: .... celebrated twice in El Paso ... once on this side and once for the other side ...
NC: Yeah.
TS: It's a different time?
NC: Yeah.
..: Yeah, in Mexico it's always the 24th of May.
..: Mexico is like ......... where you move the ......... to a Friday because it's inconvenient to .............
NC: Yeah. .........
..: Yeah. ....... we have on the 2nd Sunday of ........
NC: And in any Mexican community ... .................. incorporate the music ... because I remember when we were kids and we used to ........................... my aunts ...................... in Lytle at 5 o'clock in the morning ... telling my .................... ... and that's like one of the traditions everywhere ... right? ... California ... Lubbock ...
..: Birthday celebration ... everybody has Mother's Day ... everybody has a birthday ... and so if you had a birthday Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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celebrations ...
NC: Pinatas ...
..: ... somewhat ... that's something that's ... regardless of your economic status ... you still celebrate people's birthdays ... you still celebrate Mother's Day.
..: Uh-huh.
NC: And again ... that's a big one ... Mother's Day ... to me that's probably the most universal ... and you could do the home in that setting ... with the Mother's Day celebration ... the ..................... ... gifts ... home-made gifts and then the middle-class son that brings the dining room crock-pot that she won't ever use 'cause she doesn't want to get it ... you know ... she wants it to last forever ... right? ... that's my mother ... Mom! ... use it! ... no, no, I want to save it ... for what? ... ......... my grandmother ... so ... is that better? ... Mother's Day.
TS: That sounds good and we've never had that suggestion before.
..: Yeah, it is good.
..: .........
NC: And the quinceanera ... used to be traditional here ...
..: Uh-huh. .......... very traditional here ... traditional especially in El Paso because of the immigrants that keep coming in ... ........Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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NC: Yeah. And the gender line ... you know ... that would be real good ... with all the .......... and again the celebrations ... you could show the different generations in one family because I think that's the Chicano experience ...
..: In fact I'm sure we've got a photo collection on quinceaneras ... do you remember you brought some of them out here when we did a workshop for 6th grade teachers ... people would bring their favorite photos or something from the various simple ... mass ... something to the gigantic out-do the Jones' or the Salinas' or whatever that had the biggest one last year ... so there are things ... I know you've got all kinds of photos of quinceaneras and ....
..: ....... quinceaneras ....... ?
..: 16th birthday ...
NC: 15th.
..: 15th.
NC: The other thing that is big here that to me has never been exposed ... it just started to ... is washata ... do you know washata ............. ?
..: No.
NC: Over there ... you all play horseshoes ... okay? ... and over here you get washers ... and the slang word is "washas" ... and you pitch it ... so they have washas tournaments ...
..: Pitch it into a cup.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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NC: Yeah.
..: Like a ......
NC: It's inside the gound ...
..: Okay.
NC: ... and over here we have washas tournaments and everybody ... they have them in all your Mexican communities ... in San Antonio ... in Austin ... El Paso ... everybody has ... but nobody ... you guys don't know about it?
..: Yep. That's right.
NC: And you sit there and then ........ going to have a women's washa tornament ... so I'm going to get you into that. Because it looks easy ... you think horseshoes is a ... is a what do you call it? ... a skill ... you try to get a washa in a cup ... and these guys just ... whoosh ... and there's a point ...
..: It's like a golf ball ... toughest ...
..: In the ground?
..: .......
NC: Yeah and you just stand and you throw ......
..: Sounds easy.
NC: I'll take you to one ... I'll take you to one.
TS: How long has this been going on?
NC: Dr. ....................
..: I came here in '78 and I discovered it when I came here ... so ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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TS: Um.
NC: Actually ... you know where it originates from? ... and that could be real special to your exhibit ... it originates from the Aztec Indians ... they used to play it ... okay? ... but not with ... washas ...
..: Not modern day washas.
NC: But ... you know ... and Dr. Reyes has .........
..: Roberto Reyes.
NC: Roberto Reyes ... could ... is probably the historian on washas. And I think he would absolutely flip every part of the state of Texas out with a washa ... you could do dirt ... it's real simple ...
..: Something they could ... it would be a participatory ...
TS: That's what I was thinking.
NC: Also the cantina ... in a family setting ... like Pablos is the local ... is the kind of ... you know ... what? ... ......... anybody and everybody in the neighborhood ... one of those ... and you know ... like San Antonio ... you have those little neighborhood wino shops ... they're great ...
TS: Uh-huh.
NC: There you could do the cantina ... which is part of politics in the Mexican-American community and the washas. And you have the washa thing and where they can ... ...... washa ...
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NC.: No, no, ....... you have a patio outside ... you always have a patio when you sit there and have a few beers and ... you know ...
TS: That's right. ........
..: Beer garden ......
NC: Right. And there you have the music playing you know ... like ... you know ... everything from Patsy Cline to the Mexican .............. to Big Bandera to ... you know ... ...... Americanized process as to the mariachis ... you know ... an old juke box in a bar with the washas would be great.
TS: We have ice houses in San Antonio.
NC: Oh, yeah. I have a lot of friends ...
TS: You don't have ice houses here?
NC: We don't call them that. They're more ..... bars ... because I know of ice houses ... ..................
..: Sure ... what's to remember ... ice houses ...... you know most of them ....
NC: I've been with friends ........ from San Antonio ... since I lived over there ....
TS: ......
NC: Yeah ... and you know ... that is a ........ ... it's a place where you discuss politics ... where you design exhibits ... where you do your curriculm ... where you divorce your husband ... you know ... it all happens there ... and then you Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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go tell your mother in the kitchen.
TS: And there's part of community centers ...............
NC: Yeah. And the washa like I said ... I know that there is a washa tournament in Austin ... and there is one in San Antonio ... and I know in El Paso they have at least four ... big ones ... .............. and in Pablos they have tournaments between different bars ... you know ... and ......... ...... ... you're in it.
..: They're going to have a hard time with me ... I can't throw ...
NC: I know ... when we do it .....................
..: Everybody clear out ....
..: At least it's not as heavy as a horseshoe.
..: No.
NC: But I'm .....
TS: What other community centers ... besides that ... what else would you include as being community centers?
NC: Informal or formal?
..: Well, formal too ... like church halls ... church organizations ...
NC: I think the quinceanera and the wedding covers the church culture ...
TS: Do the women go to the bars? Or is it mostly men? ...
NC: ............Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso
INTERVIEW WITH: Charles Martin, Norma Chavez,
................. (Tape 2)
DATE: 21 May 1994
PLACE: University of Texas at El Paso, Texas
INTERVIEWERS: Tom Shelton, Matt Solorio
Shelton: This is session 2, Tejano Committee interview, University of Texas at El Paso, May 21, 1994, session 2, Matt Solorio and Tom Shelton conducting the interview. .........
NC: They probably know my name.
TS: Okay.
NC: My name .... revolutionary.
..: ..............
NC: I know. But it was my exhibit. It's a lot different than yours.
..: Yeah. Well, that's the other thing. I noticed that you focused mostly on the politics of the culture. And certainly that's important but we'd like to get ... you know ... all aspects of the Tejano culture, including some real basics, you know, ephemeral ... or real sublime concepts ... one of the things that ... well our mission statement for the exhibit is ... "to promote an understanding and appreciation for the Tejano culture within the Tejano community as well as with other communities or other cultures." And so that ... that's a difficult ...
..: Okay ... What you're trying to do is help people from other countries look at this exhibit and find out what it's all about.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: And be able to appreciate.
..: Uh-huh.
NC: But Chicano and the ... well, it's not a Chicano exhibit because it is political ... the whole Chicano thing is a political ... because we're not ... but that's not what this is about ... so ... I understand ... I think ...
..: No, I'm not saying it's bad that you ... you know ... that you focused on it it ... that's great ... but we also want to get in all the other stuff ... to keep the really basic human side ... where do we come from? ... where are our origins? Sort of an anthropological ....
NC: ............
..: Anthropologial view but on a micro-scale.
..: Uh-huh.
TS: How do you feel about the Spanish-Colonial exhibit? About ... how much we should emphasize that and what aspects of it ... does the mission period ........ ?
NC: I think it is part of the historical but again if you focus entirely on that ... you're going to have problems.
TS: Uh-huh.
NC: All over the state. With the Tejanos from South Texas ... because we're tired of that being forced as our history. I think that we want ... we want ... again ... it comes down to the significance and ... just like the Jews had a migration Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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pattern ... and the Germans and the Czechs and ... you know ... we also have a migration pattern. And that story should be told in a state exhibit like yours. You try to deal vanilla ... generic ... you know ... exhibit and I think that that is important without bashing the Colonial ... you know I'm not here to do this anti- ... you know ... the Spaniards ........ Mexicans and all that ... but it is part of the history ... right? ... you know ... and I don't think if you spend ... if you push El Paso ... the El Paso ............ ... you still haven't told me how you're going to divide this ... If they are going to do it by region ... and I think you should ... that we need to focus entirely on El Paso being colonized ... because we are tired of being perceived as being colonized people ... we're tired of it ... where the majority .................... do not control ........... we don't control ... we're working on it ... but ... so ... you know ... I think ... like you said ... you want a generic ... the ............ generic.
..: Uh-huh.
NC: ..................... generic ...............
..: But you know Norma, I lived in Mexico ............. .................. unless you're in Mexico .....................
NC: I know. That's the other thing ... we're like the bastard Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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children of the country ... we're .....
..: Exactly.
NC: We're not accepted by the Mexicans because we left and we came to the US ... the US people don't like us because we're Mexicans ... and then I have youth that I work with that are searching their indigenous roots to get ... and either colonizing back ... you know ... bashers ... and they're not accepted because now .......... has said we're being documented Native Americans ... you're just Chicanos. And so we've got the young Chicano youth just all confused becaused ... we obviously have a mixture of Spanish ... Indian ... Mexican ... and ... yet we're not ... nobody wants us. So that's when we become ...... Chicano ... you know ... this is where I am.
..: ......................
NC: No. No way.
..: Why not? ..............
NC: He's a very conservative writer.
..: Conservative? Have you read any of his stuff?
NC: Yeah, a little bit ... but not ..............
..: ...................... Americanos and Mexicans ... do you know what's going on in C................. ?
NC: Uh-huh. ..................
..: Why do you supposed that's happening to the Mexicans? Because the Mexicans continue to ............... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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NC: Uh-huh.
..: And so ................... that we will always say it's difficult for Spaniards but they've done it to themselves. ......................... they're still doing it.
NC: Yeah, because ...
..: They're still doing it.
NC: Because the history ... right? ...
..: He knows what I'm talking. You know Carlos ......... ... right?
..: ..........
..: ..... my wife, who teaches Mexican history.
NC: Yeah. But really ... our history is that the ... when the Spanish came over here to Mexico ... we were ... the mixture of the Indian blood was already negative ... okay ... so ... the anti- ... immigrant ... anti-indigenous Mexican has always been ... that's part of our history ...
..: ................. do you watch Mexican television?
NC: Yeah. Some of it ... Europeans with the Mexicans.
..: Okay ... you just hit the nail on the head.
NC: Right.
..: Why do you think that is? 'Cause the Mexicans ....
NC: Are rich?
..: ........
NC: What's your point? Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: Because the social classes in Mexico are still either ....
NC: Rich.
..: The brown ones are the poor ones and the rich are the .............. It's still going on.
NC: Right. Right.
..: In Mexico.
NC: It still goes on here.
..: ....... modern ...... products ... one can adjust ... as one moves up also.
..: So it's not only the Anglos that put us down because of color ...
NC: Oh, I know.
..: It's the Mexicans that are doing ........
NC: It's in our family ... in our family.
..: The first thing ... when a baby is born ...
NC: ...........................
..: Oh, he's beautiful ... he's got blond hair ... and blue eyes ... if he happens to be born ............... ............ ......................
..: This brings up a different issue ... should certain little ... sometimes this is called "dirty laundry" from inside the family ..........
..: A lot of people don't like to talk about it.
..: ................... sort of thing ... this is even an issue Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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in the African-American community ... they don't discuss very much with outsiders ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: But there's still lawsuits occasionally charging discrimination and within the African-American community ... if someone is lighter ... than someone who is darker ... this is something that most kids don't like to talk about.
..: No.
..: With outsiders. And ................. this isn't an appropriate setting to mention something like this ... where if you don't mention it ... you have to be careful not to play along with it in your exhibits ... because you can't help but be struck on Mexican television ... ...........
..: I mean ... that's propoganda ..............
..: ..... or featured in the advertisements ... somewhere in .....................
NC: ......................
..: ......... is this Mexico or what? Actually it's behavior .........
..: Yeah.
NC: Well, maybe in a collage of photos like you're talking about Tejano in a bold ... and then Mexican ... maybe you could have ... you know ... a peasant ... and ... you know ... a .......... person with Spanish features is light-complected Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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... a woman with indigenous ... strong indigenous features ... and a woman ... you know ... very light ... Anna's beautiful ... you know ... she's got a very nice European nose and ... you know what I'm saying? ... and show our differences ... because I think we are a mixed lot ... even in our own personal family. And they can identify ... and all the Tejanos can identify. The .............. middle-class ... the ... you could have a Chicano ...... like what you had on the little video thing ... like all the Chicanos talking ............. ... you know ... that's who we are ... .............. and I think maybe a mural would be great ... the Tejano ... and then a mural ... an artist could actually put together the whole different ........ you know ... and just have ... because the mural is the history of us ... that's our thing you know ... and it's also politicizing ......................... Mexican ....... but you know .... there I go again ... back to politics ... but but you know ...
..: No, I didn't want to direct you away from that ... I just wanted to make sure that other concepts and ideas got included as well ... but ... you know.
NC: That's a visual.
..: ....................
NC: Yeah, the mural is a visual ... and portraying ... like you said ... my ....................... sometimes ... and our Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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cousins are very much ........... and you've got to have a budget and you have ................. ... you know ... right? ... that's just the way it is.
..: That's just a normal family.
..: Yeah.
NC: Yeah.
..: I have relatives in Mississippi ... .............. people are always talking about ... oh, their relatives are always so successful ... so like if they don't then have much exposure to a cross section of the population because ........................... ........ just like when you visit your relatives you get a cross section that you really didn't really want ..........
..: Uh-huh.
NC: ........ the individuals I think like I said ... correct history ... you could correct history ... .................. and then when ................. was at least mentioning the Chicano movement ... you know ... because I don't know that ... ............ you're not doing that but that .................
..: ........................
NC: Right. And then he's from Texas ... right?
..: Uh-huh.
TS: What about women that could serve as role models? Because Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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among the younger ... I've asked younger girls what women do they admire and they can't come up .........
..: ........
NC: ..................
TS: Emma T......................
..: That's the ony one ....... and to some people a union organizer may not be the greatest role model for others ... she was also a Communist ... ................
..: ...............
..: ... that's the problem ... but people are excluded from ................. play those roles ... it's hard then to go back and put one in and yet sometimes people today don't understand why they're not there ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... .......... sports history and people keep asking why don't you do more about the women in college sports at that time? I said because they were excluded from them.
NC: Yes.
..: It's like ... oh, I thought it was just like today back then. So if you don't do something ... sometimes you need an explanation as to why it's not there because we think we know sometimes why there's not something there ... but other people don't always know. Or especially ... ......... there are some who are able to despite the ............. cultural conditions Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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...........
NC: Well, okay, we don't have a Delores ................... ... you know ... like that's ... I mean to me ... everybody ... right? ...
..: Uh-huh.
NC: ... but Lillian Mendoza ... is she from Texas?
..: Yes.
TS: Yes. She was born in San Antonio.
NC: Yeah. She ... and then she was in El Paso ... Juarez ... for a long time.
..: ............. yeah, definitely.
NC: Musician. She's got to be in there ... she's got to be ......
..: She's still alive, isn't she?
TS: Yes. ........
NC: Yes. But I think it comes back to ... like I said ... El Paso ............... you know that photo of her? playing that guitar? ... it's so appropriate of the mother ... you know ... I think we all have old pictures of our grandmothers ... dark black hair and then those ... you know ... and her guitar was ........... ... you know ... ............. history ... so she needs to definitely ...............
..: ...............
TS: ............ special tribute for her a couple of months Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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ago ...........................
..: Yeah, I remember now.
NC: Yeah. And I think ... she was one ...
..: .................
NC: Oh yeah ... did ............... ?
TS: .............
..: .....................
NC: Oh, yeah .....................
..: ......................
NC: Also ...........
..: .................... long time.
NC: Yeah, I just did a tribute to him. And ... ....... yeah, those are all ... you've got the politics ... the artists and ... women ... I don't know ... like ... for ... you know ... .................. ... Rebecca Flores ............ is the Texas Director of the ............. ... and she's still the director and I ... you know ... I've just been in mine for a year and I got involved because of the march last year and I'm still learning ... but I go over there to San Juan Tejas ... where they have the old place that they're building ... oh, my God ... talk about historical stuff ... they've got old murals ... all this old ... you know ... old buttons ... just so much ... I go ... Rebecca, you need to get a grant and have this thing documented ... because you know ... she's just got all this Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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stuff ... on farm workers ... she was really ............. ... she left the whole current board ... including her as the ............. director ... was ........................ you know ... .................... president and David Martinez' on the board ... ............ and Rebecca and Rebecca came back to Texas ... you know ... and so ... I don't know ... I think ... women ... I think she's one of the women leaders. And all of us are like ... you know ... in Texas we're all women ... she has women ................. because we don't ever do ...................
..: .......... someone ... I've forgotten her name now, but the woman that started the ............. restuarant chain and the .........
TS: Ninfa .................?
..: Yeah, that's who I'm thinking of. For example ... somebody who can also fit into the business category, but also a woman who would also .......... sort of a cultural .....
..: ......................... ... .......... can't think of her name ... she's president of .................... universities or colleges ................. South Texas .....
TS: Oh, in Brownsville?
..: Brownsville. Yeah.
TS: Yes.
..: ...............Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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TS: The president of Texas ............. College. I think it's important to include living people.
..: Yeah.
TS: Particularly for younger ....
..: Uh-huh. For the younger .......
TS: ... people because they can't relate to historical figures as they can to people that are living today and of course, people involved with music and the arts are the easiest for them to ...
..: ..............
NC: In El Paso ... ....................... ... wasn't she the ...................... ?
..: ................
NC: ......................... ... no?
..: I don't know ..............
NC: ............... We're going away from El Paso again ... I mean ... I don't know ... what you're trying to .........
..: ................
..: I noticed you all have a real strong identity with ..................connection ... with the regions ... much more so than with other towns we visited ... the cities ............
..: Yeah.
TS: That's interesting.
NC: You know why? ... because we're like our own state.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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TS: Yeah.
NC: You guys don't fund us ... you don't bring us exhibits ... you know ... you don't get artists ... ........ have Tejanos ... .............. ... you know ... because we're so far from Austin ... I mean we're just like the red-head step-child of the State of Texas ... so we have to stick together..
TS: Uh-huh.
..: In return we also seem sometimes to ignore the rest of the state, too, because we forget ... it's ... again ... it's so far away ...
TS: Yeah ... tit for tat.
..: ... it's kind of beyond ... you know ...
NC: Yeah.
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... it's beyond the horizon ... it's so far away ... I mean ...
NC: But even San Angelo and Midland is far.
..: ... and we don't identify ... we don't identify very well with the closest parts of the state of Texas either ... NC: Right. That's true.
..: ... Midland and Odessa don't really ...
NC: It's not El Paso.
..: ... inspire us very much either. People talk about going up to northern New Mexico for a vacation rather than to Central Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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Texas ...
..: Yeah, we'll go to Santa Fe before we go anywhere else.
NC: It's alright ... when we secede ... you know ... we'll have our own exhibit and do our own little ......... going to take .................
..: Yeah.
TS: Well, back to the school children ... you were going to talk a little about re-enforcing self-esteem ... how would you do that?
..: Well .. re-enforcing self-esteem ... that's for the Medal of Honor winners and ....
..: .......... stamp ... commemorative stamp .....
..: The mayors ... like .................... and Henry ..............
NC: ................ that we have ..... the big ..........
..: Congressional Medal of Honors ... uh-huh.
NC: ..................
..: Joe Rodriguez and ....................
NC: They're from El Paso.
..: Rodriquez is not from El Paso ... but Joe ........... El Paso.
TS: But you think we would do that only by using role models ... can you think of any other way to re-enforce self-esteem?
NC: Well, I think the fact that the schools and the education Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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has failed ... like what she's coming up with ... what she's saying ... has failed ... we're ... the Mexican-Americans of the country is the most decorated war-hero in every war ... okay?
..: Uh-huh.
NC: And ...
..: I think we have the largest ...
NC: ......... don't know that ...........
..: ... number of Congressional Medal of Honor winners ...
NC: Is Mexican-Americans ... you tell me how you integrate that into the classroom ... maybe that could be the classroom with Hispanic history .......... Congressional ........... you know ... more Mexican-Americans have Congressional awards ........
..: ........................
NC: That's good.
..: .......................
NC: ...... and not focusing on the segregation ... I'd rather you focus on the mass migration than the segregation in the classroom.
TS: Oh, that is a topic that we had down here. How do you address ways to .................. nation's civil rights and political empowerment?
NC: Well ... political empowerment ... you have to go back Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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to the Chicanos movement and Jose ................ and that whole thing that stood ... that was called ... you know ... Ernie Cortez is a great organizer ... I mean ... a current re-organizer ... but back then when he was the ........................ and .............. he was real conservative ... he was just starting in with COPS ... you know ... COPS is very important too ... because the whole organizing for change ... Henry Cisneros used COPS ... you know ... to get the white conservative off his back ... you know ... you don't get ... we'll sic COPS on you ... right? ... and the ... oh, I lost my train of thought ... where were we at? ... where were we going with this?
..: Political empowerment.
..: Political empowerment.
NC: Well, okay ... ............ that era ... right there was a lot of grassroots organizing and it was totally an underground movement ... it was an underground movement ...
..: There was a lot of underground newspapers going on.
NC: ... underground newspapers ... ......... they have them here ... Chicano ... right? ... you could even show some of those Chicano underground newspapers from San Antonio ... from El Paso ... and ... Cecil .................... was one of the ... and Ramon Reyes was one of the authors ... I mean ... one of the writers of those underground papers ... that we were Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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politicizing our own people ... so ... that was like early ... and then ... like if you look at the political empowerment of El Paso ... how is it that we are 70 percent of the population and we have always been the dominant and yet we've never controlled the power?
..: Because we don't go out and vote, my dear.
NC: Yeah, but there's also a process ... there's a process there ...
..: That's what I said.
NC: We did ... we have never ...
..: I think I was ............
NC: We like the saltwater.
..: ... ....... percent and ....................
TS: For the Texas ... Texas ............
..: ....................
TS: Were they prominent in this area?
..: My father and ........... were.
NC: No.
(MIXED CONVERSATIONS)
TS: ............. in South Texas
..: ................
..: There's often a ............ but they're ............. ........... usually El Paso ..................
..: ...................Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: .... Texas Rangers talks about being out here in El Paso ... but one thing ........ deal with elsewhere is ...... El Paso that you have to remember that after 1850 in the increasing immigration from the American South ... actually Tejano speaking ......... small percentage of the Texas population for a long time ... in fact the current mixture reflects the current demographics and not the 19th century ............... and there are more in Texas of German background than either 1850 or 1816 who were of Texas or Mexican background ... it's very difficult for people to imagine today because of the current demographics ... and African-Americans actually were over 30 percent of the population at one time ... it was almost one third of the state ... so that the population ....... population mix has changed ... in my Texas history class some people are surprised to see a lot of emphasis on black history because many blacks in Texas ... ......... well, I guess there are .................. historically ... you know ... that population was almost a third of the state at one time ... where now it's declined ... at the same time that the Mexican-American ... ............ Mexican-American percentage is going back up ... it reflects .......... not just a high birth rate ... but reflects your immigration again also ... so that's something you've got to deal with ... is this mix ... .......... Germans ......... extremely important in the 19th century ... but as an Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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identifiable group their impact fades as you get into the 20th ... although my college English teacher didn't speak English until she went to the first grade because she spoke German ... in Central Texas ... there's still lots of people like that ... but you know ... that ........... kind of lost some of its coherence at the same time in graphics the Tejanos are increasingly this very important demographically, statistical force within the state ... El Paso ... I mean ... had always had a sizeable population ... but not always a majority population ...
NC: Pretty much ... most of the history ...
..: ... but of course ... as compared to other parts of the state where it's surprisingly ............... because of this influx of people that came in ... it's like in New Mexico where people moved in in the latter part of the 19th century and kind of overwhelmed some of the older Hispanic ... .............. communities in northern New Mexico ... ......... kind of swamped by these recent arrivals coming in ... newcomers coming in ... and pushing people to the side and taking over ... so there's other kinds of immigration coming in too ... I mean ... that's one thing that links Tejano history with others is that this immigration .......... is something that's continuing ...........
NC: Yeah.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: ... like a river that keeps on flowing ... which is different ... because when you cut off an immigration then that changes the community here because they aren't being replenished by people coming from the older country ... where ....... ups and downs ... you know ... it's been an on-going process for Mexican-Americans in the State.
TS: What about the land-ownership within this area? Was it originally ... primarily people of Mexican descent and then at some point ... were these pushed away by ...........?
..: Well, there's been a .................
..: Some of that.
..: Uh-huh.
..: But of course land wasn't quite the same ... there was the ................... some of them married also ...
..: ..............
TS: It's a different situation then from South Texas?
NC: Yeah, yeah, and I don't think that that is a visual that will grasp people ... if you try to be then a huge photo of the mass migration ... ........ and then just do a section on immigration ... you know ... in a sense of ......... that we are no different than any other immigrants ... like I said ... we never tell the story of the immigrants ... the Mexican-American immigrant story ... it's always the Jewish ... and it's always the German ... it's always ... everything Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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but us ... the boat people you know get more ... you know ... ..... history than we do ...
..: ..............
NC: Right. We should also have a pride in understanding that our grandfathers and great-grandfathers suffered and lived along the walls that they did ... and some families did ... or they were middle class and they became poor when they moved over here ... there's nothing wrong with that ... it was just a country that was ... we come from a country that was politically torn because of a corrupt government and that's part of our history and we can't change it ... and we shouldn't feel embarrassed ... it's just that we came for a better world ... and whether we have it or not ... and what ... you know ... the situation is now ... ....... still poor people are poor and we have a social responsibility ... so I think that ... your thing ... images of the house or the washa or the ... you know ... whatever ... music ... aromas ... you want political empowerment or the schools ... like she said ... on the Congressional Honors ... Medal Honors ... our kids don't know that ... and then all those good Chicanos that think that we don't want our kids being soldiers anyway ... no ... it doesn't matter ... it's still part of our history ... and so they need to know that we were also decorated ... that's why we have this staunch Mexican-Amercian ... we're not Mexicans ... we're not Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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Chicanos ... we Americans ... .............. yes, the government said to do it but you have to go buy a house in the Mexican part of town ... you know ... so we're still ....... Mexicans ... we're still weren't good enough to live in middle class white neighborhoods.
..: Uh-huh.
NC: And that's when they got taken back by the American ......... ... you know ... we were okay ... we were on the front line ... but you have to go live in your part of town ... so ... do we want to ... El Paso doesn't have like Austin and San Antonio ... the West Side of San Antonio ...
..: The border is different ... the border towns are what ... is off the border I think ... the border cities have different housing patterns from the cities ... Brownsville ... Laredo ... and El Paso ... have different patterns ... ........... rest of the state ... ............. in El Paso they were all scattered ... like Sunset Heights ... it was always a mixed kind of area ...
..: What you're talking about fits my home town ... very accurately ... I think that San Antonio and Austin and these other places ....... very carefully ... but things are always mediated ... in El Paso and Laredo especially and to some extent Brownsville ... because they were ... because of the proximity to Mexico ... you couldn't subordinate Mexican-Americans quite Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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a much because you've interacted with Mexico ... and this was sort of a ... kind of like a ... not a big brother ... but kind of a mitigating force ... because if you were too hostile to Mexican-Americans it interferred with your on-going business relationships with Mexico ... so things always kind of moderated in these three cities ... but then in the other parts they don't have those moderating influences.
TS: Let me switch this ....
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
..: .... think about ... Brownsville ... but especially Laredo and El Paso ... the cities on the border have evolved a little bit differently than cities or towns inland ... it has been more day-to-day interaction ... ecomonics ... social ... cultural ... San Antonio you can go to the bakery ....... somebody from Mexico but it's not quite the same as going over to Mexico to the bakery each day ... and so the three border cities have a little bit different kind of cultural as well as economic interaction with Mexico.
..: High school kids .................. Juarez .......
..: Yeah, in the Valley also ... in the towns ...
..: ... so they automatically get some of the Mexican influence.
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NC: Yeah. The ............. I think is important in history ...
TS: What other historical events do you think .......
NC: I think .....
..: Well, that's a good one ... because El Paso becomes part of the US only because of ...
..: Uh-huh ... because of ........
..: ... the treaty ... we weren't part of Texas earlier ... and of course most El Pasoans don't even realize that ...
NC: Right. And that could tie in historically ... but also I think social empowerment ... political and ... that's absolutely just something so scary besides is the water ... is the water ... water ... water ... we have the .......... aquifer ......... what's ....................
..: ..................
NC: We have two sources of water that will expire and we feed a million people every year and we also have ... in the colonios without water ... I think a visual for El Paso because we're out in the desert and something ... water ... just the water ... because of the ... we're going to be in so much trouble ... Dr. ........................ Political Science and Evironmental Policy ... I mean just the stuff that they come up with ... it's just really scary ... but nobody else has the problem that we have here ... right? ... and water ... we don't Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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get rain ... we don't have the lakes ... we don't have ... and then ... we're also becoming the dumping ground ... within a hundred mile radius ... you know ... environmental racism ... we're the target ... we're going to be the environmental dumping ground for nuclear waste ... for low toxic waste ... for ... everything is in it ... you could drive just a ............. ... and it's just because we're the Mexicans in .......... El Paso ... what if ... and yet nobody has fully addressed the water issue ... that this shit is close to where we get our water ... right? ... and so water is a big thing ... colonios ... what is the governor on ... what is the big issue ... water to colonios ... water ... water ... water ... El Paso one day ran out of water ... how do you include that in a historical perspective ... I don't know ... but that is very serious because our water goes down in ... one example ...... we like share it with Mexico ... right? ... something like that? ...
..: Umph.
NC: And we only have two ...
..: Of course that's an issue for West Texas because a lot of the farmland was based on irrigation out on the high plains ... from these aquifers which they have begun to deplete and which the cost of pumping it becomes expensive too ... so West Texas is losing some of its irrigated farmland because of the loss of water in the aquifers and also the cost ... the increased Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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cost ... of pumping it ... so it's something that links us to West Texas a little bit.
NC: Yeah ... they've talked about building something that's going to go over the mountain and connect us ... it's kind of ....... crazy stuff ... that water ....
..: El Paso pipeline.
NC: Yeah. ... water is going to be a real big issue ... so ...
..: .................
NC: I don't know ... I don't know you can ... if that's too current ... maybe that's not ... you know ... history past ... but it's going to be history ... you know ... I don't know.
..: That's interesting ... I hadn't thought about that.
NC: Yeah, it's a big issue ... it's quite scary. And .................
TS: We didn't finish about the community because ... you mentioned that you wouldn't be ... well, people your ... generation and older wouldn't have been comfortable going to the bars and social centers. What would older women have used as their social community center?
..: Wasn't the church bazaars ... whatever was going on at church?
NC: I think political organizations too ... all the women ... the LULACS and the ... yeah ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: .............
NC: ... became the social ...
..: I used to be a LULAC ... one time.
NC: Yeah ... the LULACs and the VFW centers ... I think that was the big ... the social, political empowerment ... while their husbands were talking politics the women were talking politics and the women organizations ... what else besides the LULACs?
..: The women were not that political ...
NC: No ... no ... but you still got into those organizations ...
..: Women now are not that political.
NC: Yeah ... El Paso's just backwards that's all.
..: ........ what kind of organizations could women join? ....... church group? ... a rosary group? ...
..: Um ... mostly church groups.
NC: .................
..: I got involved in fund raisers for the church.
NC: St. Anthony's Bazaar ... those would be good ... the bazaars ...
..: ..............
NC: St. Anthony's Bazaar ... and the church bazaars ...
..: That's what they do.
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TS: In the church bazaars ... tell me a little about those ...
..: Well, we ... they're still going on ... well, we would sell all kinds of Mexican delicacies ... like gorditas and enchiladas and those good things ... and ...
NC: Lotterias.
..: ... we would have lottery ... we would have all kinds of games ...
TS: You'd have ..........
NC: The cake walk ...
..: We would always have a mariachi going on ...
NC: The cake walk ... right?
..: The cake walk ... and let's see what else?
..: But the lotteria ... was ...
..: The lottery was always a part of it.
NC: Lotteria and the cake walk ... the cake walk was like ... everybody's mother had to make a cake.
TS: Yeah.
..: That's right ... we all baked.
TS: I remember those from .......... San Antonio.
TS: What would you win at the lotteria ... would people bring in objects?
..: Well, we would donate objects.
TS: Things that people made ... .........?Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: Uh-huh ... either made or bought.
NC: And a scene like that you could do ... like that ... creativity games that they play ... right? ... like the .......... in the cups, you know ... right? ...
..: Yeah, they throw coins into a cup and then you win something.
NC: Yeah.
..: And you throw three of them ... I think.
NC: Yeah ... there were like ... I made homemade games because we didn't have electronic bowling ... you know ... darts ... or stuff like that ... but see ... over there it's dominoes and darts ... right?
..: Uh-huh.
NC: Over here ... the ........... was the cake walk ... the lotteria ... but also the ...................
..: Uh-huh.
TS: They were paper cups?
..: Paper cups.
TS: And what were they .........?
..: That was hard to do.
TS: ........ what did they throw them into?
..: Well, ................... paper cups ..........
NC: Real cups.
..: ..................... I think you needed throw three of Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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them and .............
TS: Were they like coffee cup size?
..: No ... it was more like a little glass.
NC: Glass, yeah. It was different. It was different ones. Yeah. ................ I know that you can go to church bazaar today and you'll see these homemade things ......
..: But wait ... they still have them ... they're still going on ...
NC: Yeah.
..: ... it's something that's still current.
TS: Would you say that church bazaars were a way of preserving handicrafts ... Mexican handicrafts?
NC: Yes and culture.
..: And culture.
TS: And culture.
NC: I think your church bazaar in El Paso is similar to San Antonio ... Austin and Dallas.
..: Uh-huh.
NC: There's a common ... just like Mother's Day ... the ... especially over there ... I think they call them ........... ... right? ... in San Antonio the .............. ... and here we never do ... it was always the ..........
..: We have an annual Fiesta las Flores at ...........'s house every year and they ........................ food and ...Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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NC: Music ...
..: ... and beer and music ... there's always mariachis ... there's always music ...
NC: Tejano ... yeah.
..: ... and ....
TS: And when is that held?
..: That's on Labor Day.
NC: 16th ......... ... oh, yeah ... Labor Day.
TS: That's ..........
NC: .............
TS: D....................?
..: No ... no ..............
NC: No ... Labor Day ... Labor Day ...
..: September.
TS: You do celebrate ........................?
NC: Yeah, but now it's more commercialized.
..: ......... That it's more commercial.
NC: It's the beer company that pays for it ...
..: I was thinking ........ celebrate Cinco de Mayo ... it's a Mexican holiday ........... French and Mexicans ............. threw the French out ............
TS: And that's a bigger celebration than ..............?
..: They celebrate that a lot more than 16th of September which is the Mexican Revolution.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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NC: Yeah.
..: And I'll bet you that if you stop and ask ten people what they celebrate .....................
NC: Yeah ....
..: ...................... they don't know what the Cinco de Mayo is ... so it's just become a commercial thing ... like our 4th of July ... most people don't really celebrate the meaning of the ....
TS: Of the holiday?
..: holiday ... Uh-huh. It's just another day away from work.
NC: Yeah. And ... yeah .. but I think that's a common social .......... ... 'cause I always remember going as a kid ... I would still go.
..: .......... Cinco de Mayo celebration as opposed to the .................... .............. parade in Juarez ...
..: Yeah.
..: What's the central ..............
..: They don't really celebrate it in El Paso ... I don't think they really ............
NC: The beer companies have gotten a hold of it but ...
..: Yeah.
NC: .........
..: But the Cinco de Mayo celebrations all over town .......
NC: Uh-huh.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: .......... 16th is a lot more important than Cinco de Mayo.
..: .......... celebration is more ... Cinco de Mayo is more of a party ... but ................. still has the more history ...
..: Yeah ... more history to it ... yeah.
..: ............. has the grito ..................... so it's a little bit different ... I think it's more of a patriotic ... there's more patriotism in the ........... ...
NC: Yeah.
..: Yeah, D.............. is like the 4th of July ........
NC: But if you really think about it ... I mean ... even the kids of today don't even know why they are celebrating the 4th of July.
..: No, they don't.
NC: It's just our ... it's our educational institutions ....
TS: ..............
..: ........... everything's changed ... yeah.
NC: So we've got major problems and this whole exhibit needs to be put ...........
..: I don't think so ....................... I used to be ..............
TS: Of course we've ....... include work as a part of this too.
NC: Yeah. What I was going to say ... that ... on this ... Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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on that part on the work on the factory ... the factories bring in El Paso's politics in the ............ which is like an international incident which has always been downplayed also ... I mean ...
TS: ...... hear about the Levi ....
NC: The ....... strike was the mobilization of workers demanded worker's rights. If you had a factory of garment workers ... you know ... women garment workers then you could have a .......... ......... ......... because that's for Chicanos ... or anybody ... you know that ... but like I said ... our history ............ never been really documented. And ... I mean that was such a big deal ... that's why Chavez came to El Paso for that ... you know ... just to stand in solidarity with them ... and ... you know ... people .............. and ............. also.
..: ....................... is ................... of UT-Pan America ... she's written a dissertation on the labor ... the Mexican-American labor organizing in the 20th century in which she studied all these various strikes.
NC: Yeah. And then organizing ... labor organizing is significant because ... and I don't think we really know how big ... you know ... labor ... we were always the dominant force in labor organizations although ... you know ... ........ considered the leader of it ... except for the farm workers Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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... it was mainly ... like the labors ... it was the workers that decided where the Mexican-American workers ... you know ... that we're the ones that were exploited ... so ... I think that's good ... a visual of that. And then the migrant workers ... to us ... not really ... 'cause our workers would have a little bit of pecans ... but our migrant workers go and work in New Mexico ... and this is a Tejano project.
..: Uh-huh.
NC: So for El Paso that won't work other than the fact that all poor workers come in and they litrally sleep on the bridge and they're picked up at 4 o'clock in the morning to go to ................ in New Mexico ... but a lot ...
TS: Do you have a big domestic help work force?
NC: Yeah.
..: Oh, my gosh, yes.
NC: The maids ... well, now ... Operation Blockade ... I think that ... yeah ... that's also good ... is the women that raise the children of the ............ ... right?
..: Uh-huh.
NC: I mean ... I was raised with ... you know ... ......... was like a family member ... we never called her a 'maid' ... but ... anyway ... she'd come and go and as she got tired and didn't want to work she'd go back to Chihuahua and she'd just appear again ... you know.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: That would probably be a different ........ between the border towns and cities and the interior ... it would be that actually maids and other domestic employers regardless of whatever actually maybe commuters from Mexico. So you talk about Mexican influences ...
TS: Right.
..: ... from Mexican-Americans also ............. individuals who were raised by maids who crossed daily or come over for the week and go home on the weekend ...
NC: Right.
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... or come over for the month and go home for several days to Chihuahua ....... on going effort ... so you actually have people that are coming daily from Mexico to work with the family ...
..: Uh-huh.
NC: Yeah.
..: ... so domestics are not just Mexican-Americans who are domestics ...
TS: Right.
..: ... they literally are Mexicans working in El Paso and I'm sure Laredo is the same way too.
NC: Which is why we don't have ... like Austin ... San Antonio ... we do not have big ... a lot of day care centers ... because Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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we always have them taken care of in our house ... you know ... whereas over there there's a lot of day care centers ... and we really don't have a lot ... I mean we don't ... there's just not that many ... and now with the blockade I don't know. But yes ....
..: They still manage to come in.
..: So a lot of these maids have documents .......... and can find ................. or maybe have green cards ... ............. green cards for example ... so she's able to travel legally.
NC: And then on lowrider ... for El Paso ... and then you still haven't never said ... you don't know how you're going to divide it ... are there going to be sections over there?
..: And we don't ... it's sort ... sort of a preliminary thought ... we thought we'd divide it by topics.
NC: Uh-huh.
..: For instance ... food, religion, politics, work ... but I think I like your idea better. So ...
NC: I don't think you can because ...
TS: Don't know ........
..: ....... Yeah ... for the reasons that you stated and I don't think any of us on the committee ... at least have ever ... thought about the diversity ... you know ... and the problems that we'd have to ... come against if we tried to categorize Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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it by topics ...
NC: Uh-huh.
..: ... because they are so ... the regions are so different.
..: Uh-huh.
NC: Because on South Texas ... I mean on the lowriders and ... like my mom ............... .............. ... but historically ... like the p............ comes from El Paso ...
..: Uh-huh.
NC: ... period ...
..: Yeah.
NC: ... I mean it comes from El Paso. And ... you know ... the ............ exhibit did a good job ... because like my dad ... you know ... I mean ... it was like everybody wanted to be a p............. ... but you know ... he tried to be cool and everything ... and it was a fashion statement ... no different that the Harlem zoot suit was ...... we were just the Mexican zoot suits ... you know ... so I think if you're going to have the lowrider ... the lowrider adapted that p........... ... you know ...
TS: Uh-huh.
NC: ... pants thing ... you could put a ... maybe an authentic p........... suit ... you know ... from here and because anybody you talk to that ... the Tejanos from California or anywhere ... they go ... we're slang ... we call ourselves Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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................ ... it's called ............ And you could just show that ... you know ... the lowrider ... but then that .................. adopted those customs and then they were artists and they'd bitch about the ........ and they'd paint cars and they'd still bitch about ... you know ... and they were doing murals ... right? ... and hydraulics ... I mean ... they could be engineers ... right? ... but we don't put them in the education system ... we put them down ... you know ... it just doesn't make sense. So the lowrider to me is El Paso ... and I know San Antonio has a big lowrider ... but El Paso was known as ... in that ... in the 50s ... .............. ... you know ... the zoot suit ........ ... the guy that ... from the .............. was from El Paso ... I mean ... he came in through El Paso ... Juarez ... and then Anthony Quinn stayed here ... his mother migrated through here ... and when they put that support committee of artists for the Sleepy Lagoon Riots ... Anthony Quinn headed it ... you know ... because his mother stayed with him in this house in Jaurez ... so ... you don't have to go through all that history ... but you know the ... I think people would get ... you know ... 'cause I'm always fascinated with the lowriders ... I'll never own one ... but right? ... you're just like ... oh, cool, man ... these are the cool guys ... you know.
TS: Yeah.Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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..: Is Anthony Q...
..: Anthony Quinn?
..: ... this is completely off the subject ... is he Mexican?
..: Oh, yeah.
NC: Yes.
..: His mother was Mexican ... he was born in Chihuahua.
NC: Yeah.
..: I didn't know that.
TS: Well, do any of you have wrap-up statements? One message that you'd like for us to keep in mind ...
..: Well, we hope to get to see the exhibit and ........
NC: And that you fly us in.
..: ....... some mention of El Paso ... because we're definitely on the map.
NC: And we're tired of being the red-haired step-child of Texas.
..: Seems to me one of the things that comes pretty loud and clear in all of this ... is the diversity of the population ...... surprising and therefore to some extent the difficulty ...
NC: Right.
..: ...........
..: ... of structuring this exhibit ... but diversity comes through loud and clear ... and we've been slowly gleaning this Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg
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over the period of, I guess a year now ... since we've been having these meetings ...
TS: ..... turn this thing off ...
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.