THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Meetings
INTERVIEW WITH: Armando Rodriguez, Antonio Romero,
Lillie Carrillo,
Sister Martha Molihan
(Tape 2 of 2)
DATE: 16 October 1994
PLACE: St. Joseph's Church, Lubbock, Texas
INTERVIEWER: David LaRo
L: This is session 2, David's session, the 16th of October, in Lubbock. And the time is 5:45. ... set where session 2 to take the tape out. Where we left ... I think ... was with you telling what you would like to see ... what point you'd like to get across in the exhibit ... you were talking when we finished ...
Armando: Uh ... (laughter) ... I forgot ... ..... talking about what I had on the series that I did ...
L: Yeah, we gotten past that ... ....... what you would like to see in our exhibit to ...
Well ... let's look at it in a different way ... what I see in our exhibit is an exhibit that is probably going to get a mixed group of Anglos ... Germans ... Mexicans ... you know ... a mixed group of all sorts of people that come in. When people walk out of that exhibit ... what thought do you want them to go away with?
ArmandO: I guess ... mainly you know ... I guess ... even though where we are Tejanos ... you know ... because we live in Texas ... you know ... that's why we're Tejanos ... right? ... you know ... we can be Hispanics ... or we can be Mexican-American ... you know ... but ... well ... let's go back ... I guess what I'd like to see in an exhibit is different things like I was talking to you about ....... an idea of how we ...
L: Music and foods and ......
Armando: ... yeah ... mainly how we live ... you know ... like a Mexican wedding ... like a Catholic Mexican wedding you know ... I'd like to see maybe ... you know ... what actually ... you know ... ............. origin of the lasso ... the difference symbols that we have ... the symbolism that we have ... and things like that. The quinceaneras especially .... you know ... I want them to know that a quinceanera is not the dance that takes after the ... the quinceanera is actually the young girl who celebrates her ............
L: Okay ... we got a budget last year that let us do this. We went out and hired a professional ... we filmed ... we spent all day with a quinceanera ... we filmed it from start ... the preparations ... the finish ...
Armando: That's what I did.
L: ... and we could edit that and get bits of that to tell the story. That's something we've already ........
Armando: I did the same thing with that. I went and taped a quinceanera and I had the .......... and I had the sisters talk about it ...
L: So that's definitely a part of the thing. I ............ I guess there could be a different ... you were talking about Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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something out there ... there could be a difference ... what do you want a Tejano to walk out of the exhibit feeling? Versus what you want an Anglo to walk out of the exhibit feeling?
Antonio: I want an Anglo to walk out of the exhibit feeling to ... I don't want them to go back to where it was ... you know ... I want them to go ahead and be more social....... with Tejanos ... or Mexicans ... or whatever ... that's what I'd like to see in the exhibit.
L: You'd like to see an improvement ... an education ...
Antonio: An improvement ... an education ...
L: ... understanding ...
Antonio: ... understanding ... ......... well ... I think I understand ... but I don't know if they do understand you know ... but I do like to ... for them people to get in mind that we don't think so bad about them ... not for them to not understand us ... see what I mean?
L: Uh-huh.
Antonio: I don't know if I explain myself?
L: Yes, I understand.
Antonio: I'd like to see that exhibit ... you know ... something like that ... so they ... so they can understand us better and I think .......... go home ... itself ... you know ... I think it will. Because a lot of Anglos they've still got a ... a little ... I think a prejudice on it ... you know ... I think. Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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I'm sorry to say that ... but that's the way ... that's the truth.
L: That's true.
Antonio: That's true.
Armando: Yes ... especially in the West Texas area.
Antonio: Yeah. And I'd like to see that exhibit come across to them people. Or if they go down there to that whatever ...
L: Well ... they do ... a lot of folks do. What would you like to see a young Hispanic man or girl ... woman ... of say 15 or 16 ... what would you like them to walk away with? What would you like to say to them? What feeling would you want them to walk out the door with?
Antonio: The feeling I'd like for them to walk out with is ... I think it'd be ... like ... more obedient ... more obedient to their ... to whatever they do. And study ... study well whatever they do ... on the right way ... let it go ... because I've seen so many people destroyed on account of that understanding see ... account of that education really ... so I think ...
L: You'd like to impress to them of some of the benefits of working and trying ...
Antonio: Working and trying ...
L: ... ........ themselves ...
Antonio: ... and keep on going.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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L: ... because there is a better life ... a better way if you're working for .......... that's a good point.
Antonio: It is a better life if you've got an education.
L: Uh-huh.
Antonio: I don't have an education and I see the lack of education that I had. I had on my mind that I ...... a lot of things ... you know what I mean ... but I don't have the education. And I see a person with education ... even to talk about it ... I mean ... when you talk to the people who're educated ... you can understand real well ... you know. And young people that don't study too much ... drop-outs ... or whatever you want to name them ... ...... or lack of education ... even communicating ... communicating you see ... communicating with their parents ... communicating with the community ... communicating ... you know ... listen ............. ... and I'd like for them to have that impression ... to keep that education going. Especially the education on young people.
L: You'd like to stimulate them to try to improve themselves.
Antonio: Yes ... try to improve themselves.
L: Okay. Let's go back around to you. What would you like to see a Hispanic young man or woman walk out of the exhibit thinking? What would you like to get across to them?
LC: I think I would like them to walk out with a sense of pride Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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of being and a Mexicano ... or Mexicana ...
Armando: I'm thinking the same thing.
LC: Yeah ... I'm thinking the same way.
(mixed conversation)
LC: And I mean ... to see how ... you know ... their grandparents or their great-grandparents did. That's what I would like to see.
L: You don't know how ........... say that.
LC: Uh?
L: You don't know how glad I am to hear that ... yes ... I've been trying not to lead that and say that ... but that's what I've been thinking ... that's been my own objective. What would you like to have the young German kid ... Anglo kid walk out with?
LC: I would like them to walk out feeling that we're no difference ... just our cultures maybe a little different ... but we're just as American as any Polish ... German ... or whatever ... that's what I would like them to feel ... that we're just ... we're Americans ... we're just from Mexican heritage ... some of us ... some of us may be from Spanish ...
L: Some of us from ...
LC: ... I'm personally from Mexican ... because my mother was from Mexico.
L: Now, how about you, Sister?Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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MM: Well, that's what I was thinking ... that I wish they would all leave saying ... that's my ancestry ... and I'm proud of it ... you know ... and be willing to carry it on. And I can say for myself ... when I first was sent out ... I was sent to El Paso ... as a young Sister ... and every ... all that culture was brand-new to me ... 'cause I came from Kentucky ... and I just thought it was all ... it was all different and new ... but I got see it was beautiful ... and I liked it all. And so if other people could get that same feeling of respect and just see what's different from what I know ... but it's sure nice ... so ... (laughter)
L: You're saying understanding too ...
MM: Uh-huh.
L: ... mutual understanding ... respect ... this ... That's sort of what we've heard from a lot of folks and we've talked about it. But it gets difficult ...
MM: How to do it.
L: ... it gets ... how ... how do you do that? I had one gentleman tell me ... What do you want the Hispanic to walk out understanding and what do you want the message to be? ... and he said ... the message is I've been here 50 years ... I'm still here ... I've been kicked around ... beat up ... spit on ... and I'm still here ... and I'm still running ... and I'm still on top of things ... and I'm not going anywhere ... Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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you'd better understand me ... 'cause I'm not going to go away. And the kids just say ... Man, these people have been here a long time ... they've had it rough ... and look ... they're tough ... they're hanging in there ... they're proud ... and it's the pride thing ... no matter what I had to go through ... I'm still here ... and I'm not going to go anyplace ... so you'd better ... the pride thing.
Armando: What do you think that the people in San Antonio are going to ... you know ... say about ... you know ... people from Lubbock ... you know? Are they really going to care about ... you know ... what really happened in Lubbock? You know ... because most of the people who're there are ... you know ... from the Valley ... from San Antonio ... ........ but do they really care ... you know ... that the people here ... the Hispanic people who came ... you know ... they're the ones that built the railroads ... they're the ones that laid the brick on the streets in downtown Lubbock ... they're the ones that laid the sewer ... sewer lines ... you know ... what are the people from San Antonio going to say about that?
L: Well ... our overall objective is not tell the story of the people from Lubbock or from the people from San Antonio. We're trying to get an exhibit that will cover the experience of every area ... that's why we're going around the state.
Armando: Okay ... how are you going to cover the Lubbock area? Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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I mean ....
L: Well ... we're not going to have a section that says ... you know ... this is the Lubbock area ... but we're trying to make sure that what we tell people represents what your experiences here and what their's is ... and possibly ... you could say ... okay, in some areas of the state this is true ... and other areas like Lubbock this is true ... in the Valley this is true. We're trying to tell a story ... paint a picture that is not untruthful for Lubbock ... is not untrue for El Paso ... that tells the story for all people. And if it's not true ... it's obvious that the Lubbock experience is agricultural ... a lot of folks came here for work in agriculture. That's not necessarily true in San Antonio.
Armando: Because I was ... I came down from Corpus Christi ... that's where we came from ... ............ and ... you know ... we ended up here because of the ......... ... you know ... ........ to work.
L: I guess why we're here is so we can find out if we're saying something or thinking something that you disagree with.
Armando: See ... that's what I'd like to know ... what the people in San Antonio are going to say about the people in Lubbock?
L: Uh ... if we tell 'em ... if we do this in the right way ... they aren't going to know we're telling ... we're talking Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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to people in Lubbock ... we're talking about the people ... and what we say should be true. What would make you unhappy? What would you say if you saw it and you'd say ... I don't like that. That's not true for Lubbock. Do you have an example of what would upset ... what you would not like to see?
Armando: Here in Lubbock you know ... we've experienced a lot of prejudice ... you know ... a lot of discrimination ... in that series that I did I talked to a lot of people ... you know ... I talked about discriminaton ... and nowadays ... you know ... you still see it ... you know. People ... I don't think the people in San Antonio will see the prejudice or the discrimination that goes on here.
L: I see where you're going ... yes.
Armando: .......
LC: But this is really just to ... it's going to be ... for like people that go to San Antonio on vacation and they're going to go and visit this ...
..: Exhibit.
LC: ... heritage center or exhibit or museum ... isn't that what this is ... or not necessarily?
L: No, not necessarily. We're part of the State of Texas. The state gives us some of our funding. We get the rest by various means ... working ... selling ... whatever ... sell books. But we're part of the State and we're obligated to tell Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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the story of the state ... not just San Antonio.
LC: Uh-huh.
L: The story of the state ... the entire state. And if somebody comes from Lubbock and looks at this thing ... they shouldn't go away saying ... That's untrue ... that is not the way it is at Lubbock ... or at Houston ... or at Dallas ... or whatever.
LC: No. That's what mean ... that it's telling the story to anybody that goes there.
L: Everybody ... anybody ... absolutely.
LC: They may not necessarily be from ... even Texas ...
L: They may be from Spain ... they may be from Germany ... a lot of them from Mexico. We have a lot of traffic from Mexico ... especially during the shopping season.
Armando: San Antonio is a tourist town.
L: Tourist mecca ... yes. And our streets and our malls reflect that ... you can't get around it. But ... yes ... you're right ... the story is for everybody. We're trying tell a story that is accurate ... is accurate as we can make it ... about the Texas-Hispanic experience. That was the way it is.
Armando: Okay. ........
L: That's the way it is.
Armando: That's ....... experience that ... you know ... we may wish ........... ... mostly my grandparents or parents that Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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came down ... or were up here ... they were the ones that experienced that discrimination back then. And I don't know whether the people in San Antonio or down in the Valley have experienced that. See it's different you know ... and ........
Antonio: ....... more Mexicanos ........
Armando: ... because ...
L: Yes.
Armando: ... because ... I don't know ... like I said ... that's something that I know ... that's something that I would like to know ... maybe from their perspective ...
L: We have asked them ... we have heard them ... we've asked the question to find out ... in the Valley for example ... Do you folks see discrimination in the Valley?
Armando: What do they say?
L: They said ... Yes. But it's not ethnic discrimination ... it's class discrimination ... it's the rich versus the poor ... you know.
Armando: Yeah. The same kind of discrimination that's here.
L: I'm poor and you're rich ... so I'm going to get out of the way when you go by. And it doesn't ... the Mexicano ... Anglo ... gringo ... doesn't seem to have a lot of effect on that. There are a lot of rich Americanos that are high class and they ...
LC: Discriminate ........Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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..: ............
L: ... have the same ... you know ... discrimination is a human thing I believe. I think it is probably something that in some people's mind that like to feel big ... to say ... I'm better than that person becuase he's ... fill in the blank ... he's small ... he's big ... he's fat ... he's skinny ... he's White ... he's Black ... it's something ... some people like to feel bigger by knocking somebody else down. And that's probably not going to go away ever.
Antonio: That's what happened with Mexico.
Armando: Yeah.
Antonio: A big class people ... you know ... the campesinos ... they don't care ...
Armando: .......... different ........
L: And there's problems down there ... yeah ... different kinds. We're not trying so make this exhibit deal with discrimination ... but it's not something that we can hide ... 'cause it's there ... it's not going to go away because we don't show it. So we're trying to really tell the story. And I guess we're asking ... how would you tell the story? We don't have long enough to get ... we could talk all day about this I guess ... and she's going to come get me in about 20 minutes.
MM: Well ... there's people with family and there are people with music and people with color ... you know ... that's what Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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I see.
L: The good things ... the good things.
MM: (laughter) Uh-huh.
L: And that's what we've seen also ... that's the good side of the equation. That's ... I guess that's where the understanding comes in ... what is quote unquote the Tejano culture? What ... okay ... let me ask that question ... what trait or traits do you think are binding or common to Tejanos ... a Tejano from Texline versus Lubbock versus El Paso versus Corpus Christi versus Edinburg ... what traits are you going find in the Tejano community in all of those? What's common to those?
Armando: I think that the music really binds us together.
L: Music ... yes.
Armando: ........ ... the language ... you know ... the Spanish language ... 'cause ... I mean ... I think that's second ...
L: It varies from the Valley to here ... but we're still talking about Spanish ... Spanish ... you know ... that's a lot of things ...
Armando: Like Tex-Mex ... you know ...
L: Yeah.
Armando: ... but ... there's a couple of things that ... you know ... kind of binds ... music ... and ... you know ... the Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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family ... you know ... with the family ......... ... real close ... you know.
MM: Because you go far ... you know ... for ... to visit someone who's sick ... whereas we might not go that far.
L: Or to a birthday party for a grandmother? Yes.
MM: Uh-huh. So families are so important.
L: It is. What would you say would be common to Tejanos from all over the state? What is a binding factor?
Antonio: Binding factor? Music. Like recently they came up with that Tejano music ........... ...
L: Uh-huh.
Antonio: ... and boy they pack ... they pack and bind together ... families ... yeah ... (laughter) ...
L: But beyond the music and the family ... what ...
Antonio: I think religion.
L: And the religion.
Antonio: Religion.
L: Would you say Catholicism or would you say religion in general? I know we're in a Catholic church ... but not all Hispanics are Catholics ... there's a lot ...
..: ........
..: ........
L: Lutherans and what ....
..: ..........Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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L: Would you say religion in general or would you say Catholicism was the binding factor?
Armando: I would say religion in general. See like right here ... in this area ... the majority or 80 percent of the Catholics are Hispanics.
L: I read the paper by Yolando Romero that addresses that ... it says the Catholic church ... when the Hispanics came ... when the Mexicans came here from across the border ... and the Mexican-Americans came here from the Valley looking for opportunities ... looking for freedom ... looking for relief from the wars or economic problems ... they had problems ... they banded together and what was here ... what they found that kept them together was the Catholic church.
Antonio: Catholic church.
L: That's what they said. Yes. But what other factors ... is there another factor we haven't talked about that you'd say is a common denominator?
Antonio: I don't know of any ... I mean I can't think of any right now.
L: Okay. Well, let's keep talking and think about it maybe ... how about you Lillie, what do you think?
LC: I would think the food. (laughter)
L: Okay. Food.
LC: Yes.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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L: Yes.
LC: Because ... I mean ... you know ... like at Christmas time everybody has tamales. (laughter) Most of them. This is where ... here in Lubbock is where I learned how to make tamales. Because my husband's family all made tamales and that's what we had.
L: My wife ran into a German family ...
LC: At Christmas and New Year ... so ... (laughter)
L: My wife ran into a German family ... she's learning some of the customs because of her family ... because that family is very ......... oriented. They get together every year after Christmas and make sausage ... the whole family ... brothers and sisters ... they all come with deer-meat ... sausage ... and they spend the day ... a week-end ... making sausage. So it's ... food is a binding thing ... and with the Tejanos ... yes, it certainly is. But ... and we've talked about religion and food and music and family ... the traditions would emcompass some of this ... the quinceaneras ... the family traditions ... the cultural tradition ... that's not a German tradition ... it's pretty uniquely Hispanic. What else would you ... can you think of something else? We've tried to find some of these elements that we can use to tell the story without ... you know ... trying to write a book on the wall. How do you .... ?Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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Armando: Work.
L: Work.
Armando: Work.
L: That's a section ... a significant section ... yes. How would you go a little further with that? How would you do a ......... ?
Antonio: I don't know how to say it in English ...
MM: Say it in Spanish.
L: En Espanol ... we've got people ... if I don't understand it we've got folks who can translate it.
Armando: .............
Antonio: Okay .......... (Spanish) ...........
Armando: ... and the workers ...........
L: Okay.
Antonio: .........(Spanish) .....
Armando: .......... (Spanish) .......
Antonio: ............ (Spanish) ......
Armando: Oh ... he wants to see equality in the workforce. What he's trying say is ... a lot of people ... you know ... I guess they kind of ... if you go somewhere ... like if you were to go looking for a job ... there's no way ...............
L: ..........
Antonio: We have this experience ... I had this experience ... and myself and my son ... he's working for the City now Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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... and I had this experience in equality ... and they had to go through screening ...
L: Yes.
Antonio: ... you know ... and they screened the Mexicano out ... which he is more qualified than the ............ ... you know ... I'm against that kind of stuff ... I'm sorry to say this but ... that's the way I feel ... you know. I'd like to see equal dealing ... on everything. A display over there ... some kind of display ... to put it ...
L: Something that promotes ...
Antonio: ... promotes ... yeah ...
L: ... fair treatment ...
Antonio: ... fair treatment on the ........ (Spanish) ......
L: Okay.
Antonio: Managers or city council or whoever it is ...
L: Politicians. There was one thing I wanted to ask everyone ... Oh ... yes ... I'll start with you, Sister ... what would you like to see portrayed as a hero or a role model for youngsters ... young men and women? Who ... if you've got a specific name ... or what person would you like to see portrayed as a role model or do you feel like we should even talk about role models?
MM: Yes ... role models are important. Well ... right here I think the Ms. Senorita is a wonderful role model in the Fiestas that we have ... Diez y Seis ... because those ... I see those Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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young ladies ... they really put a lot into preparing for this ... improving themselves and getting up in front of the public and I admire those girls ... I think the ones I've seen and known ... like some from our church they're wonderful role models.
L: ...... for you next ... if you were going to pick a role model ... who would you like to see on a wall? What face would you like to see or who would you like to talk about on the wall? One you think would really have an impact ... you know ... really inspire some young man or woman ...?
LC: Well ... personally for me I would like for my grandkids to see a role model in a lady that is educated ... has finished college ... and is working back in the field with ... in where ... like my daughter is a teacher ... and she loves to work ... like in minority schools where she feels that she's helping ... to me ... she's a role model. Or I would like someone to see her as that.
L: Do you have any others?
LC: I was going to say Sister ... Mother Theresa ... but I don't know if these young girls would see Mother Theresa as a role model. But I do.
L: You think ... we're talking females now ... do you think a role model would be someone who's successful ... someone who's got an education ... someone who's back working with the people Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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... working as a teacher ... someone who's trying to do some good for the community? How about you, sir, who would you like to see ... or who do you think of as a role model for a young man or woman today?
Antonio: A role model like ... I think the new lawyers ... new .......... ... or whatever ... to understand them ... I don't know really.
L: Okay. The new lawyers.
Antonio: I'd like to see some of them as role model in the community ... show theirselves ... show their ... and people to watch their education ... whatever ... I would say Montford ... but I don't want to ....
L: Who? Say who?
(laughter)
L: Politics ...
(mixed conversation and laughter)
..: Local politics (laughter)
L: How about you, Armando?
Armando: Like I mentioned to you on the series that I did ... I'm used to ... a teacher ... a high school teacher ... and also ...... the other person ... Rosemary .......... who's the principal of ....... High. You know ... people like that ... doctors ... curanderos ... ...... doctors ... people ... you know ... who can influence the young people and steer them Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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in the right direction. I can't think of certain people ... you know ...
L: Okay.
Armando: ... but you know ... I know you're probably talking about Cesar Romero and people like that. Not just ....
L: No. ...... Chavez ... no ... I'm not ... that's what I'm looking for.
Armando: But there's one person ... you know ... Bishop ... Romero from ... he was ... he was assassinated ... .............. ... he was ... you know ... people like that ...
Antonio: Bishop Flores is a good role model.
MM: And what about our own bishop?
L: San Antonio?
LC: Yes.
MM: Placido Rodriguez ... who can ...
Antonio: Placido Rodriguez.
MM: Our own bishop.
Antonio: He just came into the picture.
MM: He just came into the picture.
L: What we're talking about ...
Armando: See ... we're talking about people who ... not necessarily who have been in public ... in high ... ........ ... but I'm talking about people who have been forgotten ... who have done something for the community ... who can really Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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actually teach these young people ... you know ... a better way of life ... you know. They don't necessarily have to be ... you know ...
L: I like what I'm hearing.
Armando: Some are here.
L: I like what I'm hearing.
Armando: .......
L: I like what I'm hearing and I like what you're saying and I like that you didn't say Cesar Chavez ... ....... you say Henry Gonzales ... or Henry Cisneros ... the current HUD Secretary ... because he made ... he's from San Antonio ... he was our mayor.
MM: Uh-huh.
L: His mother volunteers with us. His mother was working with Phyllis Friday in the school ... going out to one of the high schools ... working with some of the high school kids.
Antonio: He wouldn't be ... he wouldn't be a good role model nowadays ... would he?
L: Uh ... well ... I don't know ... it doesn't seem to have hurt him a whole lot ... but right now ...
Antonio: .........
L: We have a wall full of people who are ... and Henry Gonzales is a congressman ... he's been our congressman for 40 years ... nobody runs against him.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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Armando: .........
L: He's the bishop ... these folks on the wall go all the way back ... but these are on the wall ... heroes ... heroes ... heroes. When I talk to kids ... when I tour them through there ... and I do take kids through ... that's one of my jobs as a volunteer ... uh ... I tell them ... All of these are important people. They're all people who's names you read in the paper or if you live two hundred years ago you would have read this guy's name ............
Armando: We don't really know how they actually .......
L: But ... yeah ... and we're finding out there's a lot we don't know ... but I said ... The guy that's a real hero to me ... and I tell the kids this a lot ... all the time in fact ... is the man who's lived to be 50 years old ... who's raised a family ... who's got kids ... grandkids ... he's worked hard every day ... he's gotten up and he's gone to work ... he's fed his kids ... he's tried to educate them ... or a lady who's gone to church and works in the church ... somebody who's done their job ... who doesn't make the papers ... somebody who's trying to make the world better. We had a group and one of the people popped up and said ... That's easy ... my mother.
Antonio: Yeah.
Armando: That's what I was going to say ... my mother ...
L: My mother ... mother ... yes.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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Armando: She was my role model.
L: And I didn't want to lead you all but some of these things ... I like what I'm hearing ... I don't like the wall we have there ... I don't like all these heroes ... glorified heroes ... 'cause ... just because a kid sees his name in the paper today ... ............. ... next week he might find Henry Gonzales is a bank robber ... and ax murderer ... you don't know what ... you don't know what these guys are ...........
Armando: ................
L: Yeah ... and a ........
Armando: But those are the people that we see in public ... you know ... but ...........
L: You all are saying people who ...
LC: In sports sort of like Michael Jordan ... I know ... or ... that's what kids ...
L: Or O.J. right now ... that's a good one ...
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
Armando: ... well ... what you were saying ... to me ... my role model was my mother ... only because she was ........ ... she taught me many things ... you know ... how to have faith ... in God ... you know ... .........
L: ............. yourself ..........
Armando: Yes ... and myself ... you know ... and most of all Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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in God ... 'cause if it wasn't for her I wouldn't be where I'm at ... and she's the one that actually inspired me to continue my education ... ......... ... and she's the lady that I saw who took care of us ... you know ... whatever she did ... whatever she had to do ... to ... you know ... keep us going ... you know ... she did whatever she had to do ... to put food on the table ... to keep a roof on our heads ... and you know ... things like that is what I'm talking about.
L: Those are the kind of heroes I like to ... I would like to see on the wall sometimes ... that's what interests me ... really ... gets me emotional about the whole thing.
Armando: Yes ... you know ... I hate it when people say they call Michael Jordan ... you know ... like when we were talking about O.J. ... about ... Oh, a hero that has gone down over there .... That was not a hero .........
L: But the media made him a hero.
LC: ...... has AIDs what's his name?
Armando: Magic Johnson?
LC: Yeah. I mean my kids cried ...
L: Back to ... that's a shame isn't it? Back to you Sister, what do you think of .......... where we're going ... what do you think about role models now? Who do you see? How would you portray a mother .... ?
MM: Well ... there are a lot of ... you know ... good teachers Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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... you know ... good teachers ... and like here at our church they're just a lot of ordinary people who volunteer to help children here in our church ... and to a lot of children ... you see them ... they love their teachers. ............. So I think they're role models because they say in the mall and when they see the person that teaches them ... There's my teacher. So somebody close to them in the vicinity ... for one thing.
L: They give us a list of questions to ask if we run out of things to talk about ... we ........... half of these. The ones we've talked about are important to me. I wanted to find out who you thought were role models ... what you'd like to say ... does anybody have another thought about what you would not like to see? For example ... you might say ... I would not like to see low-rider ...... Hispanic.
Armando: See there's a misunderstanding about that. You can see the low-riders as ... you know ... that's a type of life style that we live ... you know ... but it's something that can be entertained ... it doesn't necessarily mean they're bad kids.
L: Oh, no.
Armando: You know ... they're not bad kids you know. That's part ... you know ... of our culture ... you know.
L: One of our staffers is very much involved with them. And Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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he's not Hispanic ... he just happens to be in love with kids who are. But they're people who say ... I don't want to see low-riders on board ... .that puts us down. But is there something ... you're saying ... you don't think that's a put-down ... you'd like to see them aboard ... right?
Armando: You know ... explain ... have somebody who actually tells the story ... their story ...
L: But ... as an example ... is there something like that ... I don't want to see X. I don't want to see ... obviously we don't want to see drug dealers because that's not Hispanic ... that's everybody. We don't want to see crooks. We don't want to see politicians who are ... but is there something you don't want to see ... that would bother you? You say ... If I saw that on the wall I would walk out offended. Is there something you can think of that would bother you? That you would like not to see on the wall.
MM: Well ... that Mexican man sitting down there with his hat on ... you know ...
L: Stero-type ... stero-typical.
MM: ... siesta ... (laughter)
L: Yes ... we're trying to get away from that. But that's a good point to make. I'm glad you made it ... at least it will be on the tape ... it needs to be talked about and remember. Is there somebody you would not like to see? Or something Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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you would not like ... a picture?
LC: I would say ... like these young kids that are ... maybe gang memebers or something ... because they ... all Mexicans are not gang members ... there's gang members of every race.
L: Absolutely.
LC: But if they see that ... they feel ... well, yeah, that's a Mexican ... he's a gang member. I would not like to see any pictures of anybody ... even though it's a fact of life that ... you know ... we do have gangs ...
L: My daughter teaches middle school ... she tells me about gangs all the time. No gang members. How about you, sir, is there something that would bother you if you saw it? You're smiling ... you've got something to say. What's that? (laughter)
Antonio: I really ... I really ... well I go for what they say ... at the same time gang members and specifically ... something else ... I had on the top of my head ... I can't think of it ... anyway ... I like to see ... I don't like to see ... I don't like to see violence ... anywhere ... I don't like to see drug dealers ... I don't like to see something like that.
L: Okay. Let me carry you along with that a little bit. One of the things I say ... this is my personal opinion ... not the Institute talking ... this is me ... I think an exhibit like this should be an exhibit ... personal opinion again ... Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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that brings people together ... not something that puts a wall between the two communities and separates brown versus white.
Antonio: Uh-huh.
L: I would like to see ... there are people who've said ... you need to talk about the Texas Rangers ... ............... ... you've got to talk about them because they're bad ... they're evil ... and they were terrible. (Yes, ma'am. ..... sandwiches are ready in 5 minutes? ) They're bad ... they're evil ... they were brutal ... they discriminated ... they beat us ... they whipped us ... they shot us ... they're bad. Uh ... they're bad ... let's talk about them ... let's put it on the board and let's say how bad they were. But then at some of these meetings I've had women in the Valley ... particularly a lady from Edinburg popped up and she said ... It's a bunch of baloney. In the first place they were ... a lot of the Rangers were Mexicans. In the second place they were bad because it was a bad time ... they had to be bad ... they didn't have any other law. In the third place there's as many bad people on the other side of the fence as there are there. But in the fourth place I don't want to talk about confrontation ... I don't want to hide it ... but I don't want to talk about something that ... throw something up there to make both sides mad. If you throw it up and the Mexican side says ... Look at those bad guys in the white Stetsons ... they're picking at us. And Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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before you know it we're not talking about understanding ... we're talking about confrontation. So ... I personally I think an exhibit that brings people together ... rather than something that builds a wall is kind of what I'd like to see. But there's 10 members on the committee and there's a lot of people that we're talking to in the state ... and I'm trying to ask ... What do you think about that? What do you thing about confrontation versus assimilating type of ... that experience?
Armando: I don't think we should put anything that kind of ... you know ... makes the two sides mad at each other. I think ...... do that. You know ... a lot of times ... you know ... like if you put a gang member up there that's kind of like saying ... Okay ... you know ... that's bad ... you know ... but then again ... you know ... we can also love them. And like a lot of Mexican people who will go out and get drunk and stuff like that ... you know ... in a way ... ....... I don't want to be that part. You know you can kind of turn the other way around ...
L: You can learn from bad experiences.
Armando: Yeah ... you can learn from bad you know. ......... deal with .............
L: But it's a thought we need to keep back here while we're doing all this stuff.
Armando: You know ... it's not just an exhibit you just put Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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up ... ........... ... it's going to take explanation ... because a lot of the things that ... that we as Hispanics ... you know ... ......... it's just been a lot of misunderstanding ........... everything's not clear.
L: We talked about our goals ... the committee ........ ... for two weeks ... for about two hours a day for two weeks ... one of the words we ......... ... understandings ... communications ... or lack of that ... has been the cause of many, many ... The Ballard of Gregorio Cortez ... that book ... what's the doctor's name? ... ........... ...
Armando: This man is here?
L: No ... he's a retired professor at UT-Austin ... and he wrote several books ... he's a very good scholar ... aye ... I can't think of his name ... but ... anyway ... he did a book called The Ballard of Gregorio Cortez ... have you heard that story?
Armando: Yeah. ...........
L: Go back to the very beginning of that and find out what caused him to shot the sheriff or whoever it was ... and it was a misunderstanding. It was a language difference. One guy thought he said this and one guy thought he said that ... and the guns started ... I trace all that back and I say ... Look ... all that started from a simple lack of communication. We're not talking to each other.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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Armando: It's just like with the League of Latin Americans Citizens that started in Corpus Christi because of the discrimination that was going on ...
L: Yes.
Armando: And a lot of people thought they were just rebels ... because they just turned against .........
L: A lot of people did, yes.
Armando: Yeah ... because they were defending themselves ...
L: Yes.
Armando: ... you know ... defending our rights ... that's what they were doing. You know ... just because ... okay ... .......... trouble-makers ... you know ... but that's not true ... you know ... we have to stand up and defend ourselves.
L: Do you all recognize the name ... oh, it's not here ... I'm sorry ... Ernesto Cortez? He's not a state-wide hero ... he's not known very much is he?
LC: Did he write a book or something?
L: There's a book written about him ... yes. Have you heard about COPS in San Antonio that .........?
Antonio: Yeah ... I heard about COPS.
L: Okay. COPS ... when I was working for the Air Force ... COPS was all the news. They were like the LULAC ... trouble makers ... rabble-rousers ... trouble ... trouble ... trouble. Ernesto Cortez was the guy who ... was the strategist for them Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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... he didn't come out in the papers ... he grew the music ... he'd teach leaders ... how to organize ... how to be effective ...... And he'd go out and do things like ... whenever ... if a bank was picking on Hispanics or was not being fair ... he couldn't get them to discuss it ... he'd have hundreds of people line up at the bank ... at the windows ... and they'd want change for a dollar in pennies ... and then they'd get out of line ... go to the back ... come up ... they'd want a dollar for the pennies ... they tied up windows at the bank for a whole day and the banker would pull his hair out ... he finally decided they were just making a big ... he finally said he said he'd better talk to them ... you know ... those communications ... and that's what Cortez was going for ... he was going for understanding and diaglogue and talking. And he's still around ... he was at the meeting in San Antonio now ... he lives in Austin. Brilliant man ... there's a book about him ... he's one of my heroes.
Antonio: ...... Mexican culture ..........
L: There's a .....
MM: Mexican-American .......
L: Mexican-American Folklore Center in Austin ... yes.
Armando: Mexican-American Cultural Center there.
L: There's a Mexican-American Cultural Center in San Antonio near us.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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Armando: Yeah ... in San Antonio ... yeah.
L: There's .......... University near us.
Antonio: You're talking about organization COPS ...
L: Yes.
Antonio: ... we went out there to a little ......... they mentioned something like you did ... and they called the attention in that community ...
..: Yes.
Antonio: ... called the attention ...
L: How do you get somebody to listen to you? First you've got to ... if you have a problem ... first I have to listen to you ... then I have to understand it.
Antonio: Yes.
L: And then I have to want to work with you to solve.
Antonio: Right.
L: And these guys ... Cortez ... I read a book about him ... I can't think of the name of it now ... Cold Anger is the name of the book ... Cold Anger ... and it's written by a lady who's one of Ann Richard's lieutenants ... she was like Assistant Treasurer ........... when Ann was Treasurer ... she wrote the book because she was impressed with Cortez. And I read the book because I went to Cortez' home one time in Austin on an errand on something else and I met his wife who is a librarian by the way ... and I was impressed ... the man has got to be Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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a genius ... so I bought the book and read it. And he has become one of my personal heroes. And you don't see his name on boards ... on bulletin boards ... rarely in newspapers ... there's a program coming out ... there's a Hispanic seminar in San Antonio that comes up next month ... it costs $300 to go so I won't be going ... but he's one of the speakers .......... Okay, we're wrapping it up now ...
Armando: We don't want to see ....
L: We're wrapping it up.
Armando: We don't want to see any Hispanic people ... you know ... with beer bottles ... in their hands ... (laughter)
L: Okay. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? (laughter)
Antonio: Yeah. Kidding. (laughter)
L: Before we leave is there one last thing you'd like to say? Seriously. Anything you'd like to say about that woman ... you opinion? I like ... I don't like.
Armando: I'd just like the idea ... the thing that they used ........... just people think that we're just a ... they put different labels on us ....
L: Okay. The labeling is bad. I can certainly understand that .......
Armando: That we should be just one ........ ... one group ... Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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L: The center ... we decided that there's no difference in us ... the center ....... can make more progress ... I think ... that's what you're saying. Quit labeling ... quit dividing us ... and .............. Is there something you'd like to say, sir, before we go? Last shot.
Antonio: I don't see no difference in the name ... in the naming of the Mexican-American ... whatever. We're kind of used to it.
L: It doesn't ... but you need to understand it ...
Antonio: Yeah ... I understand it ... yeah ... I understand it.
L: And if you understand it and she understands and I understand it ... then we're talking the same language ... we're okay ... we're communicating.
Antonio: Yeah ... Tejanos ... like I said before ... you know ... it's a new wording for me ... but it ... I still don't mind it ... if the people ... the other people understand it ... ........
L: You know ... a lot of those scholars ... the Hispanic scholars are writing right now and a lot of the Anglo scholars are writing about this are beginning to use the word ... it's showing up in literature ... so it's getting popular. But reading San Antonio papers from 200 years ago they used it then ... when it was still Spanish territory they used it ... Tejano Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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was a word then ... Tejano was a word then ... Mexicano was a word then. Okay ... we're closing up ... anything you'd like to say before we leave ... your opinions ... your likes or dislikes?
LC: No ... I don't think so ... ....... think of ....... I stated what I like and what I dislike.
L: Okay. Do you have any last words for us then?
MM: Well ... I think a positive exhibit so people walk away with a more positive understanding of Mexican-Americans ... their culture and ....
L: I'm sure glad you said that too. Did you hear that tape? (laughter) Okay ... let's close it with this ... let's close it with ....
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.