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Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, Abernathy, Texas, Part 2, October 16, 1994
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Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, Abernathy, Texas, Part 2, October 16, 1994
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THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Meeting
INTERVIEW WITH: Juan Flores, Juan de Nueva,
Christina Camacho, Michelle Camaco,
Julia de Nueva, Jack Camacho,
Gina (Regina) Lopez, Andre ........
Leonardo Cortez
DATE: 16 October 1994
PLACE: Abernathy, Texas
INTERVIEWERS: Phyllis McKenzie and Lorenzo Galvan, Jr.
Sally Wiskemann
M: This is Phyllis McKenzie of the Institute of Texan Cultures, today is October 16, 1994. We're in Abernathy, Texas, at the John ........... farm for a Community Meeting for the Tejano exhibit. Also posing interview questions will be Lorenzo Galvan, Jr.
We're going to now identify all of the voices on the tape.
JF: My name is Juan Flores.
JN: My name is Juan de Nueva.
CC: My name is Christina Camacho.
MC: My name is Michelle Camacho.
Julia: My name is Julia de Nueva.
JC: I'm Jack Camacho.
LC: And I am Leonardo Cortez.
G: I'm Lorenzo Galvan, Jr.
G: Okay, let met just ask a general question and then ... all of you are from Abernathy or surrounding areas?Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1)
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..: Well, I was born in Robstown, Texas.
G: Okay.
..: Robstown ... but I grew up around here.
G: You grew up around here. What I was going to ... my question that I'm going to pose to you is that ... do you feel that there are certain traditions or certain traits that stay in a certain part of the state? like something that is common up here would not be like from say where you're from ... from Robstown ... or maybe there's something over there that people tend to do a lot more than people here in the northern part of the state? Do you feel like there are any certain things like ... maybe you don't celebrate Dia de los Muertos or quinceaneras or something. You know in some parts of the state that's not heard of. We were in Edinburg back in October of last year and one of the gentlemen that was in one of our groups ... I think he was a school teacher ... wasn't he? ... or ... a doctor ... yeah ... he was a PhD in history or something ... when he got really upset about that because he said that's something that's from Mexico we don't practice that ... you know. Yet in San Antonio it's a very common thing. So we've noticed as we've travelled all over the state that we found people that have these traditions but they tend not to continue doing them ... they don't pass them on to their offspring because of the fact that it's not ... you know ... it's not cool ... Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1)
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don't do that. It's rather more of a ... ......... ... I want you to continue to do ... because it's part of your culture ... you know. Do you guys feel like there's any things like that that tend to keep people together?
..: Yeah ... we've got our traditions mostly the way ...... San Antonio ... Robstown ......... mostly ... some of them ... like we have quinceaneras ... we've got 2 quinceaneras ... we just had one yesterday.
G: Uh-huh.
..: We've got one next week.
M: And are they the same as South Texas?
..: They're the same ... it depends ... you know ... on the deacon priest that comes and celebrates the quinceanera ... actually it means the same.
G: Uh-huh.
..: Most of the traditions that we have ...
G: Baptismos and all that traditions.
..: ... Baptismos are the same. The quineacernos I don't know about in San Antonio or back up that way ... but I think they celebrate from the 10 or 11 ... but here we celebrate it when they are 15 ........
G: 15.
..: ... years old. ...............?
G: Uh-huh ... yeah.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1)
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..: I don't know about back there ... but here ... everything's the same ... around here ... everything's the same.
G: Traditions ... yeah.
M: How about the rest of you? Did you all grow up here?
..: I agree. I grew up here. I've been here all my life. ............ I agree with what Juan said. And I was thinking about this gentleman that you say had never heard of quinceanera ... it's possible that ... see ... quinceaneras ... know that it was religion ...
G: ........
..: ... and it's possible that this gentleman may have been ...
G: Protestant or something.
..: ... yeah ... denomination and sometimes they don't like to accept things like that.
G: That's very true.
..: But most of us being ... you know ... Mexican-American ... from Mexican descent ... follow those traditions.
..: Right.
M: Talk just about the history of the area. When did your family ... your ancestors ... first come to live in this part of Texas?
..: When?
M: Uh-huh. How far back?Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1)
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..: A ... let's see ... my father was born in San Benito, Texas.
..: Down in the Valley?
..: Uh-huh. My mother was born in Mexico. Okay ... and they met somewhere near Robstown ..... (laughter) ... anyway ... to make a story short ... they came during the cotton harvest ... to pick cotton.
G: Up here?
..: Uh-huh. And they would stay and work during the harvest season and then go back to the Valley. And they did this ... you know ... back and forth ......
M: When was this? what year?
..: This was before I was born. Okay ... and then doing that so often they just decided well, why don't we stay here and ... this was in the '40s ... right before I was born.
M: Was there a Mexican community here at that time?
..: Uh ... it was just ....
..: ........
..: ... organizing from the same ...
G: Migrant workers?
..: ... ...... people ... people that would come and work the fields and some decided to stay and then the next year some more would stay and we gradually grew larger. But I was born in 1945. I was born on the farm about 10 miles north of here.
..: Uh-huh.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1)
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..: My dad worked for a farm and ... I was looking at that picture up there ... that brings a lot of memories ... cotton harvest time ... 'cause that's what my parents did. And I remember ... my earliest recollections ... recollections were of being in a car or truck and watching my parents pick cotton.
G: You were still too young to get involved .......
M: Do you still farm today? What do you do now?
..: No. I work for the Metro Gas Company in Lubbock. But my daddy taught me that farming was good but too many hours to work.
..: That's right.
..: And he stressed education. That's one thing.
G: That's something that we've found that's very common amongst the Americano communities ... that the parents instilled this ... you know ... get educated ... you know ... because you don't want to do what I did. It was tough for me and I don't want to see you go through this and then it just keeps getting passed on ... you know.
..: My dad ...
M: Did your parents own the land that they worked?
..: No. Unh-huh. My dad worked ... went to school for ... up to the third grade ... and that was it ... so he really stressed education for us kids. And my mother ... no formal education Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1)
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at all. And up to this day she doesn't speak English.
M: Is that right?
..: She's 73 years old.
M: And did all of your ... you and your siblings get the education that your parents wanted you to have?
..: Most of us.
M: Uh-huh.
G: Just like anything else ... not everybody else follows along.
M: ...... Would the rest of you talk about how your families came to be in this area? Julia, would you talk?
Julia: Well, my dad was born in ... both of my parents were born in Texas. My grandparents were both from Mexico. And they married somewhere around San Antonio ... ............. After marriage they moved to ....... ... Waco area ... and that's where I was born ... .......... ... that's were I was born. And I started school when I was seven ... there. And then when I was ...... we moved to Dallas. It was a big change from the farm. My dad was farming ...... work in the farms with the landlords ... he would .......... ... he said ... I don't know what this means ... he would work on .............
G: Yes, like sharecropping ... uh-huh.
Julia: Sharecropping.
G: Uh-huh ... that's what it is. They pick and then split Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1)
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the profit.
Julia: Yeah. Well, and then my family ... I was next to the youngest ... six of us ... and my older brothers and sisters did all the work ... all I did was take care of the chickens ... and ... you know ... ............
..: Wow. (laughter)
..: Gina.
G: Hi, Gina.
M: We had a new member just join our group and she will say her name for the tape.
RL: My name is Regina Lopez.
M: Hi, Regina.
RL: And I'm 21 ... and ...
M: Pleased to have you. What we're talking about right now is how your families came to live in this part of the state. And we'll have one of the gentlemen here talk about it first and then we'll probably ask you the same question.
G: Excuse me, before you continue, you said your parents were raised around Knippa ... or what was it?
Julia: Yeah, that's were they were. Well, my dad was from Eagle Pass and mom was from Soledad.
G: Oh, okay.
Julia: That's were married. My dad got there somehow ... I guess working.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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G: The reason I'm asking is I travel that Highway 90 quite a bit and I always go through that town and I had never ...
Julia: It's a little bitty town.
G: ... I had never met anyone that would say ... Well, I'm from there. ... or ... I know somebody from there. You know ... it's just ...
Julia: I have some relatives there ........
G: There's a sign that says ... Go ahead and blink ... Knippa's not that little. (laughter)
Julia: Uh-huh. Little bitty.
G: Yeah.
..: What's the name?
Julia: Knippa.
..: It's K-n-i-p-p-a.
..: Yeah.
G: That's the first I've heard .......
..: Really?
..: It's about 20 miles ... 10 miles ... west of ... I mean east of Uvalde.
G: Uvalde ... yeah. Between Uvalde and Hondo.
..: Yeah.
M: Mr. de Nueva ... will you talk ....
JN: Okay. Well, I used to be ... used to be a migrant you know ... until ... I was born in Robstown ... you know ... where Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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that new Interstate goes now ... through ...
G: 37? Yeah.
JN: Yeah. There used to be a farm there ... but there's no farm there no more ... so I was born there ... right in there. And we started going out to the states ... you know ... here and then Wyoming ... Ohio ... and Montana ... other than just working ... in the beets ... sugar beets ... and onions and potatoes ... well ... while we were down there in Robstown ........ reason we used to go back my dad used to work in the yerba ... you know ... ...........?
G: Uh-huh.
JN: ......... radishes and all those vegetables out there ... and we started going out ... coming out here to Lubbock until we finally ... see what made us ... what made ... I think ... what my daddy may change his mind not to go out anymore ... is because we had a wreck ... near Clovis, New Mexico, ... about 1950 something ... and we had a little ... I had a little cousin that died from that wrecking and we just ... he decided that ... no more.
G: Uh-huh.
JN: So we stayed around here and found work and he just ... he's 80 ... he's going to be 80 years old in January ... he's still working on that farm.
M: Is he really? Good for him.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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JN: And ...
..: .........
JN: Uh ... that's about it ... you know ... there's a long story that I had ... that ............. ... but I would like to save it ............... let somebody else ..........
M: Well, I'd just like to ask one more question ... you and your siblings ... are you farmers too or what work do you do?
JN: No ... I am disabled. And the reason I am disabled is that sometimes ... you know ... as a Spanish ... Mexican-American ... Spanish ... we get too proud of each other ... of ourselves ... you know ... and we go to drinking ... we go to this ... and we go to that ... we messed up our lives ... and that's what happened to me. ............. So it disabled me ... ........ I have cirrhosis of the liver ... I'm a diabetic and I ... you name and I have it I guess. So it's a ... you know ... ............. because my dad doesn't drink at all ... I never did see him drink ... once in awhile I seen him drink a beer ... and he never did finish it ... you know ... but ... I just picked it up along the way ... with the little friends ... you know ... that you get mixed up with and sometimes those little friends cost you.
G: That's right.
M: Right. Absolutely. Mr. Flores.
JF: Okay ... my parents were both born in ... around San Antonio Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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... Floresville ... and my father used to do a lot of migrating with his daddy to Arizona ... Michigan ... Indianapolis ... they used to follow ... back then ... and then when he met my mother and they married there in Floresville ... I was born there ... but I was brought up North here to Abernathy. Well, not Abernathy ... but to Rawls ... and Rawls is about 20 miles east of Lubbock ... and I was raised and went to school there ... well ... better part of our lives. He was a farmer and we lived on the farm all our lives. The thing he was always stressing was get your education ... don't do like ... like I am ... you know ... breaking my back ... but ...
M: Is that what happened?
JF: ... what brought him ...
..: Did he really do that?
JF: Yes. We brought him ... what brought him over here was the better pay ... 'cause he was ... especially the gins back then used to pay something like a dollar an hour here and they were making like 25 ... 50 cents an hour in ...
..: Down there?
JF: ... South Texas. And he said work was very scarce and he came down here ... when he came down here he didn't know English ... he had education ... he said he was about 2 weeks education ... that was in Arizona ... and he said he ... he was the biggest guy there ... he was like 10 years old and he Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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was in the first grade ... he said the teacher always made him carry the ... the ...
..: .........
JF: ... the record player ... because they used the record player in the room a lot ... and he said about the only thing she wanted me to do was carry her record player ... so I just quit going.
G: (laughter)
M: Gosh.
JF: And my mother ... she had no education ... but most of us were ... 2 brothers ... 4 sisters ... and all of us graduated at one time or another.
..: ........
JF: High school or GED.
G: All of you still in the same general area or?
JF: Yes ... well ... one ... we're still in the West Texas area ... although I've got a sister in Odessa ... and a brother in Abilene ... the rest of them are right here around the Lubbock area.
G: That's interesting because up ... in my experiences ... I've noticed that the ... the Hispanic people tend to stick close to where they're raised ... you know ... unlike the Anglo and ... I imagine some of the Hispanics now are doing it. They grow up ... they get married ... they get educated ... you got Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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one in Florida ... you got one in California ... and somebody's in Montana ... you know ... they just go on and make their life wherever they want to. I find that very uncommon from the ... my generation of Chi ... Americanos ... like in my family ... one of my sisters who lives the fartherest from my mom's house ... I think she lives like maybe 7 miles ... you know ... I mean ... it's just like everything is real close ... you know. And I talk to friends of mine at work and they ... Yeah, my sister's in Ohio and my brother's in Florida and ... you know ... but they're from the next generation ... you know ... they're younger and I imagine when I hear you talk ... I'm sure your ideas are a lot different ... you know ... but ...
M: ........ would you tell us how your family came to live in this area ... how many generations back ... the first ....
..: Do you know what ... I think probably Leonardo or Juan know more about my parents than I do. (laughter)
M: Why is that? (laughter)
..: Well ... I mean ... you know ... I mean ... you just don't really ... I don't know ... well ... we never really get a chance to talk about it. I know my dad was born in Waco .........
..: Uh-huh.
..: And they pretty much stuck to this area. And my mom was born like in Littlefield and they stayed there for awhile but they went to .......... ... that's where they lived ... you Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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know ... my mom's whole family is down there. And we went ... you know ... I was born down there ... and then my dad brought us back down here. So I've lived all my life .......
M: He brought you back down here to do what? What kind of work was he doing?
..: Well ... I don't think it really had much to do with work ... but I mean ..... family ......
M: He came because of family ties.
..: Uh-huh. And so we pretty much ......... I know that they all used to work in the fields and stuff like that ... cotton ... and so did I ... I grew up in the ........ you know ... since I was 9 years old I was working for the .............. out in the fields ...
..: Wow.
..: ... so ........
M: Just a minute ... we have 3 young ladies in our group ... and I wanted to ask you all ... have you lived here all your lives? Michelle, have you?
MC: We ... (laughter)
..: .........
MC: Okay ... I think I was born in Abernathy ...
M: Abernathy ... alright.
G: Local.
M: Christina?Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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CC: I was born in ..........
M: ........... that's nearby. Didn't get your name ... who are you?
..: Andre.
M: Andre ... yeah ... where we you born?
(mixed conversation)
..: How old are you?
G: I'll be 50 next month. When we were talking about the family ... unlike my sisters ... there's 3 of us ... and my kids ... I don't think there's one that lives within 15 miles of me ... I mean ... the just .... they scattered.
Sally: How far away are they?
G: Uh?
Sally: How far away are they?
G: They're all outside 1604.
M: That's not far.
G: Oh, yeah ... yeah ... that's in San Antonio ... but I mean ... they're not close.
(mixed conversation and laughter)
..: .......... but ....... out there in ... somewhere along Dallas ... Lancaster ... along in there ... and one of them does ... her mother's the one that lives here in Lubbock.
M: Talk to me about your feelings about family. You heard us telling you that we kind of feel family should be one of Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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the themes of the exhibit ... do you agree with that? do you think that is a strong factor.
(mixed conversation)
..: Yes.
..: Uh-huh.
M: What are some samples from your own lives of the strength of family?
..: We have a 20 ... well he was born in '68 ... how old would that make ... would that be 25 ... '68 ... 26 ...
M: 26 ... That's when our museum started.
..: Okay ... that's right ... he turned 26 in June ... he's single ... he still lives at home. He's on his own ... but he's still at home ... ........... but he's still at home. And we're ... we're ... we don't complain that he's at home ... he's welcome there as long as he wants to ... you know. We don't want to pressure him to get married if he's not ready although I think they're getting engaged. And then ... he's our oldest son ... we have another son that's married ... he lives in the same town ... in Abernathy ... he's about 10 blocks away from home ... and then we have a younger son that's a senior in high school. And he's talking about joining the Marine Corps when he gets out of high school.
M: How do you feel about that?
..: Uh ... I feel like the military training is good for a Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1)
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young man starting out. In fact, I'm kind of strong ... I was in the service myself ... and I'm kind of strong on the military ... I think that it ought to be mandatory ...
G: I hear you ... I hear you.
..: ... for ...
G: Everybody.
..: I think that if it were that way for the young men ...
..: We wouldn't be what we have today.
..: Right. We wouldn't have this gang problems and stuff.
..: Yeah.
G: There's a lot of discipline that can be picked up in the first 2 months of basic ... you know ... that's something these kids don't have.
M: Let's not leave the family topic until everyone's ....... talk about that.
Sally: Let me interject for just a minute ... since we don't really have time for a real break ... at any time that you feel that you'd like to go and get some coffee or go to the restroom or something ... please feel ......
M: And I'm a slave-driver ... so you going to have to signal me when you're ready ... (laughter) ... I'll keep you here forever if I can get away with it. But ..... the rest of you can think of things in your own life that showed the family was something strong or important?Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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..: My family was always ... have always had pretty close ties with our parents. I mean as far as that goes ... we always did things together. We got a ... they knew us like the back of our hands ....
G: Uh-huh.
M: What did you do together ... what kinds of things?
..: Oh ... just all kinds of things ... I mean ... as far as family gatherings ... going out ... vacations and all this stuff ... everything was done as a family.
G: Let me ask you ... do you feel that being ... let's say ... from the farm ... does that style differ from the city ...
..: It differs ... yes ... it does ... greatly ...
G: Is it because they have more avenues ... they just scatter a lot faster .....
..: The kids that are raised on the farm seems like they've got a little more respect ...
G: Uh-huh.
..: ... for others. They know the value of a dollar ... they're taught early to work ...
G: Uh-huh.
..: ... and ... I mean ... I was working at the age of 6 and 7 ... I was already working in the fields.
G: Uh-huh.
M: That's one thing I would like to talk about ... those of Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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you who can remember when you were children ... either working in the fields yourselves ... or seeing your parents work ... would you tell us something about the working conditions? .........
..: We had ... our working conditions were fairly good ... I mean ... we had electricity ... we had water ... we didn't have inside toilet ... I mean ... that was beside the point back then ... you were lucky if you had inside toilet ... but I think that we were one of the lucky ones to be ... to work for the people that we did. Because daddy worked for 3 guys ... 3 farmers ... in the time that he was into farming. He worked 8 years for one ... then like 10 for the other one ... and then the rest of them ... we even got ......... ... on that farm we lived 20 years ... and all but 2 got married from there. And they treated us like family.
M: Is that right? So you were very fairly treated.
..: We were fairly treated ... but I'd see the ... some of the other places ... some of the other people ... you know ... that weren't treated as fairly. I mean we didn't make the whole bunch of money ... but I mean ... our conditions were a lot better than others that I could see. Especially ... especially the Blacks back then.
M: They were treated worse than you were?
..: They were treated worse than Hispanics. Hispanics had Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1)
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a house. Blacks used to live ... they might ... you know as well as I do ...
..: Tent or something?
..: Well ... no ... not tents ... I didn't see them live in tents ... but I saw them live in barns ... what we call ........ .
G: Yeah ... just put them all ..........
..: It was a family in there ... it's a one-room ........... ... you know ... we used to keep seed in there ... for the harvest. And they'd clean it out and put them in. And I remember going to school and the bus would stop and it was a barn ... picking up Black kids going to school.
G: Uh-huh.
..: ........ when we used to migrate ... we were migrants you know ... they used to put us ... one time when we were down there ... we were staying at this and we went to work in the onions in Victoria ... Cuero and Port Lavaca ...
G: Uh-huh.
..: ... and there was this big barn and they had stalls and in each stall there was a family.
G: That's what I remember. Yeah.
..: And we were in one of those stalls. And we couldn't get ... when we went to town we had to watch for the stores what we buy because they had signs there that ... No Mexicans ... Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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No Colored. And when we went to the movies they had us a sign there ... No Spanish ... not offending anybody ... you know ... but ...
M: What period of time are we talking about?
..: It was in the '40s and '50s.
M: '40s and '50s.
..: I remember the '50s. ........
..: When we got here to Lubbock there was 3 or 4 ... 2 ... 3 ... 3 ....... there were 3 ........ you know ... they had a sign in there ... No Spanish ... No Mexicans ...
M: Is that right?
..: And in the restuarants ... you know ... ...... going from town to town ... we used to get coffee ... we didn't have any coffee ... my uncle and my dad ... or my grand-daddy ... my grand-daddy was from Mexico and my grandmother was from Mexico too ... but they said they sent them to the back so they could get the coffee ... so they wouldn't be seen ... ............
M: How did you and your parents react to that kind of overt discrimination?
..: We didn't react to it then ... but we reacted ... what hurt us is now that we think back ... see? That's my feeling you know. I ... and I don't have any ... any ... regr ... what I mean is I don't have any ... I forgive what they did to me.
G: You don't hold a grudge or nothing.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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..: I don't hold a grudge against them ... you know. Whatever they did ... you know ... they did .........
G: It was a thing of the times I guess.
..: I think a lot of the ... a lot of this has to do with the Blacks. Back then they were always struggling and fighting against it.
G: Uh-huh.
..: And we ... the Hispanics ... the Mexicans ... just took it in stride.
G: Uh-huh.
..: We didn't raise our voices very often ... we didn't ... we just ... if we were ...
M: Why do you think that was?
..: If we were ......... on one side ... we took it ... you know. Blacks on one side ... Whites on the other ... Hispanics and Blacks on that side ... we just went through that life.
M: Do you know why the difference?
..: I don't know why the difference was ... I mean ... I'd like to know why ...
..: To me it was the way we were brought up.
..: I think it was ....
..: I mean you respect others ... that respect will ...
(mixed conversation)
G: You being the youngest in our group ... have you ... have Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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you been exposed to any of this?
..: See ... you know ... like with my parents I know they had it a lot worse than I did. And now I think the younger generation is kind of losing its little sense of tradition and what their roots. Because I know I did for awhile ........
M: How old are you? Would you mind telling us?
..: 21.
M: 21.
..: 21 and I know I didn't have it as hard but I thought I had it really hard. You know ... I didn't have to go out and work in the fields for 12 hours a day ... I only had to work 8 hours a day. You know ... and I ...
(laughter and mixed conversation)
..: ... I thought I was just ... I thought I was ... I thought I was going to die ... but my parents ... you know ... they were out there younger than I was ...
G: That was sunrise to sunset back then.
..: Oh, yeah.
..: And you know ... I think that my parents also have more respect for their parents than I had for them ... and I think that ... you know ... the way everybody used to work hard it made them more humble and I know that ...
G: So true.
..: ... and also ... you know ... I kind of wish that I would Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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have gotten to grow up in that time era ... because I mean everything's just so ... you know ... everybody's so entwined together and everything ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... and now the younger generation now has this idea where I'm not going to be worth anything unless I go to school ... and if I make something of myself ... and so they put off making this family ... you know ... making a family. But my dad ... like this summer I have like a 4 hour chemistry class and I came home a little late ... you know ... and he said ... I want you to just quit school ... get married ... and give me grandbabies.
(laughter)
G: I've got news for you, dad.
..: But you know I don't think that that is so bad ... you know ... that's like my main goal now ... you know ... like I've kind of been out there ... and been around ... I met ... I came back home ... you know ... because it's really hard to make it and I know that my family's alway there ... I mean ... I've got a big family ... (laughter)
M: What I'm hearing from things various ones of you are saying is that ... the respect and family and hard work and education are values that are running through for most all of you ... is that ... ?Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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..: Yeah ... education is ........... God first and then the education ................ that's what we think.
..: Uh-huh.
M: Religion ... played a very big role in your life?
..: Religion.
M: And in your culture could we say?
..: ......... respect ... you know ... the respect that ............ when I was growing up ... you know. I still have this ... this tradition that I go and kiss the hands of the old ladies ... I ........ my daddy ... my momma ... everytime I see them ... you know ... I live about 3 or 4 blocks from them where I live ... everytime I go out there I kiss their hands.
..: He goes about 3 or 4 times a day.
..: And some ladies that are ... those old ladies ... you know ... in their 70s and 60s ... I go and kiss their hands ..........
G: It's a form of respect.
..: Yeah.
..: I know my ....... does that ... my brothers ... my brothers are ready to go off ...... my younger brother wants to go to UT ... (laughter) ... you know ... and I'm just ... M: Sign of the times.
..: English .............
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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SIDE 2.
M: This is side 2 of the Abernathy Community Meeting, October 16th, 1994, this is the session that Phyllis McKenzie and Lorenzo Galvan Jr are facilitating.
G: What were we talking about?
M: You remember what you were talking about, Mr. de Nueva?
..: A little respect and ....
..: ..........
..: What?
..: Religion being a strong force in the tradition of the .......
..: And religion .......... tradition that you know who kiss the hands of the ladies there at the church ... and everybody ... you know ... the old ladies I have that respect ... and religion plays a very important part in our lives ... you know ... because even though we weren't that religious but we still ... we still you know ....... (Spanish) ........ Guadalupe is the one ... to me ... it's a tradition that ...
..: Represents the poor.
..: ... well ......
M: In the exhibit itself ... would the Virgin of Guadalupe be appropriate?
..: I think so.
..: Yes.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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..: I think ....
..: It would be .......
..: What I was thinking is ...........
..: There's a bank in Lubbock ... I don't know the name ... but they have ... when you go in ... as you go in to the main lobby ... there's a big replica of the ................... ... but when you go into a place where there's a picture of the Virgin of Guadalupe ... you feel like you're home.
G: Uh-huh.
..: I do.
..: It used to be Lubbock National Bank right there downtown.
..: ...........
M: But that really represents your heritage and your culture to you ... alright. One thing that's very different for us talking to all of you ... you're the first group we've talked to in a Community Meeting who really come from farm-working background. How could we represent that part of your heritage in an exhibit? What would be appropriate things?
G: For the working ....
M: For the farm workers ... the fact that that's been a big part of Tejanos.
G: We had ... we had an idea that we tossed around in that area where we're going to put the working part ... of having Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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like maybe ... in the backgroud maybe a mural depicting a field ...
..: Uh-huh.
G: ... and then maybe the back of a pickup truck or something ... you know ... that kind of sticks out like from the wall but like its ... you're looking at it from the back of the pickup ... you know ... and then having pictures or maybe manikins or something ...
M: Or maybe real people ...
G: People.
M: ... who would simply tell the kind of stories people would share ...
G: See we have docents that go around ...
M: ... at night in the labor camps ... or songs ... if you could tell us anything like this from your own childhood or your memories.
..: I think that because like he said ... you know ... especially those replicas that they ........... pickup ... and then show some ...... (Spanish) ...........
G: Yeah.
..: Si. And then have somebody there to explain ... live ... explain the pictures of .........
G: Well ... one of our ideas that we're trying to do is to use tapes where you go up there and you've got the picture ... Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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you see what's there ... and let's say ... I want to see what that lady ... what she's doing ... and you push this button ...
..: Oh, yeah.
G: ... it's labeled and then you hear her voice ... you know ... like what is she doing ... I'm preparing the lunch for the workers ... ............ or do you want to hear the kids ... you know ... like you were saying you used to be in the truck watching ... when you were too young ...
..: Okay ... what brings to mind ... to me ... during the harvest ... the working season ... is the cotton fields ... like they appear in that picture ... which you see a lot of now ... the cotton ready to be harvested ... and a trailer ... a big old trailer full of cotton and a sack ...
..: Somebody with a sack trying to weigh .......
..; Our parents ... that's ... that's how they make their living ... cotton ... picking cotton. And ... you know ... these long ...
G: Sacks?
..: ... ....... you probably don't know what I'm talking about ... I mean ...
G: Sacks? Oh, I know what you're talking about.
(mixed conversation and laughter)
..: Yeah.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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..: Where the scales .......
..: You know you could have something like that if you wanted to ..........
..: Sure.
..: ....... making a cotton sack full ... hung on the scale ... with a ............
..: Yeah.
..: The thing about ....
G: When we took our break I was in there ...... water ......
..: That was the way our parents made their living ... hoeing and .......
G: There was a lady talking about she remembered the big trucks ... you know ... those big trucks with the canvas cover ...
..: Yeah.
G: ... it was full of people.
(mixed conversation)
G: That was what she was talking about.
(mixed conversation)
..: Lubbock used to be full of those things during the harvest season ... I mean ... downtown ... the downtown area ... Broadway ...
..: Oh ... you couldn't walk in that ...... in the '40s and '50s ... you couldn't walk ...
..: Even the small towns.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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..: ... you couldn't walk in there.
..: I was raised in Rawls and Rawls had 2 theaters ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... for a small town ... I mean ... that was a lot. And you had to stand in line to get into the theaters. There was so much people from out of town.
..: ...... harvest ... yeah.
..: ............ group of the Conjuntos come in ..........
M: Tell us about the ...... (laughter) ... tell us what you did for entertainment.
G: That's another thing we're going to touch on is ... music. And the idea was brought up when we went to ... when we had our meeting in Edinburg. One of the gentlemen in my group said that would be something for the younger generation ... like have some ... the inside of a truck or car ... you know ... and then have a tape of music from the different time periods. And ... you know ... you can ...
M: Or a radio station ... you could turn it on in the cabin ........
G: Yeah. Whatever time period you were from.
M: ... here ... Spanish language radio.
G: Pick up the music and you get the music from that era.
M: But we need the memories ... we need from you all what ... what things you remember.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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..: The way I see it ... you know ... I mean ... it started out with migrants ...
G: Uh-huh.
..: ... you know ... migrating year after year ...
G: Right.
..: ... but you get to West Texas and this is where they started stopping off ...
M: Settling.
..: ... from here they became farmers ... farm-hands .... you know ... and then this is where their education ...... picked up.
G: Uh-huh.
..: That's the way I see it ... in my view ... you know. Because migrating stopped a few years back ... oh, yeah ... you still see every now and then ... not that many. You know it just stops and the farmers pick up.
M: Stops when? What time period would you say the change took place?
..: Oh, I'd say ...
G: '70s maybe?
..: ... about the '70s ... it finally started slowing down.
M: Mr. Cortez.
LC: I was going to say regarding ... you asked a question about living conditions and the way we were treated and our parents Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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were treated back then ... and I think that our parents saw how they were treated and how it was not right and unjust and all this and therefore that made our parents instill in us more ... more values in the way of being ... of acting more respect for fellow man and not be discriminating ...........
M: Did you try to pass those same values on to your own children? Do you see ....
LC: I think so ... yeah.
M: ... connecting link between generations?
LC: I can remember going into the Hale County Seat ... ........... ... and seeing fountains ... drinking fountains that said ... you know ... Whites only ... and then Colored ... and going into ... trying to get a haircut in a barbershop and being turned down because of being Mexican-American.
M: Should we put something in the exhibit like that? Should we put a "No Mexicans Allowed" or something that would show overt discrimination ... would that be appropriate?
..: Well, I think one of the questions was something like that ... wasn't it?
..: Uh-huh.
..: And I would feel like ... yeah, because it happened and ....
G: See, there was a lady in El Paso that was in my group ... she's got a PhD in ... she's got a PhD in history ... and Hispanic Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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... no, Mexican culture and she was ... when that topic was brought up because there was another gentleman with me that was from ... I think he was originally from the Valley ... but he was raised in El Paso ... he was telling us that his grandparents ... his grandparents used to tell him about all the ... the way the Texas Rangers used to treat the Americanos ... you know ... especially along the borders. And when that came up ... you know ... this lady was ... phew ... she just blew her stack ... she said you don't want to address that because that's ... you know ... that's what starts problems. I said ... well, that's history though.
..: Yeah ...
..: Part of history.
..: How do you feel?
..: I feel like it might ... you know ...
G: Offend people you think?
..: ... well, it didn't offend me ... you know ... then at the time because that's what I was used to.
G: Well ... see, that's what we were talking about ... you know ... because it's history ... but then again it's going to bring back bad memories ...
..: Right.
G: ... and you know ...
..: That's how I feel ... you know ... I think that probably Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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we need to ...
G: Bring back .......
..: ... keep it alive ... you know ... for that reason.
..: That's something that needs to be ........
G: Forgotten?
M: I'd actually like to hear ....
..: We'll never forget it.
M: ... everyone how you would answer this question ... because this is an important thing that we've talked a lot among ourselves about and haven't reached agreement ... should things like this ....
..: Also ...... it might again ...
M: ... that might be inflamatory ... but ...
..: ... be worst in places than in other places.
M: ... but that did take place.
..: It should be ........
..: Very definitely ......
..: I was in fifth grade ... it happened to us.
M: ...........
G: Uh-huh.
..: Of course, we'd drink with White ... we were Mexican-Americans ... you know ... and the Colored would dring ........ ... but I think ... you know ... I'll never forget it.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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G: Yeah.
..: I don't want to have my kids and my grandchildren ...
G: Going through this.
..: ... keep it up ... you know ... I mean ... we want to be one with all races.
M: Do you feel they should know this existed though?
..: But I think if ...
..: ....... they should know ... yeah.
..: ... it's done in a positive ... I mean ... .......... we're Mexicans ... you know ... and then see where some of these offices are being taken ... you know ... high offices were ...
G: By Hispanics leaders you mean?
..: ... by Hispanic leaders ... yeah ... I think that would ... you know ... show something ...
G: Uh-huh.
..: ... as a positive. It wouldn't show the negative part so much ... but it would show the positive.
M: It would show the change. Have all the problems been solved though ... right ... do some still remain? Should the exhibit acknowledge that? What still remains?
..: I don't know ... because there's still some prejudices ..... of course in a little town.
..: There will always be.
..: There will always be ...........Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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..: ............ Texas Rangers or the Border Patrol?
G: No ... Texas Rangers.
M: We can talk about the Border Patrol too. If you feel that's appropriate.
..: That's my experiences .... with the Border Patrol.
G: Yeah. Well, this was in the past ... you know ... and they ... this lady was very adamant about it ... she said ... No, you don't want to address that because ... this and that. She had her reasons ... you know ... but there again ... on the other side of the coin this other person was saying ... Yeah, but it happened. People suffered because of this ... you know ... and that's why we've come where we are now ... because we overcame that ... but I feel it should be addressed. I said ... Well, this is what we're here for you know ... so we had everybody give us an opinion on that. What you were saying about being combined with the Whites ... if you weren't Black you were considered part of the White ... right? ... because there was no problems for Mexicans ... right?
..: ...........
G: Brings us an interesting story ... when I was bringing up my kids ... when they were little ... I guess my son was about her age ... and my two oldest daughters were about their age ... and we were sitting around ... having dinner and my oldest daughter started making fun of my little boy ... David's Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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got a girl friend. I said ... You got a girl friend, Boy? He says ... Yeah. He's kind of bashful and I said ... Well, what's her name? He says ... Her name's Pearl. And where we lived is predominately Black neighborhood ... right? So I said ... Pearl? What kind of name is that? I said ... Is she Black or what? No, she's White like me. (laughter) I wanted to laugh you know ... I said ... Boy, I've got to talk to you ... there's 3 different kinds here. (laughter) But it's just that innocent humor ... you know ... they don't see the difference. And ...
..: ...... beautiful.
G: That's what me ... I said ... I love this. Because they don't see no difference in color.
(mixed conversation)
..: That's the way the Lord wants you to be.
M: It's real important for just one to talk at a time or we'll get a tape that will be garbled. So ... I'll try to get everyone a turn. Did we just called ... 5 ...
G: Yeah ... 5 minutes.
Sally: 5 minutes ...... attack you.
M: Gosh.
..: Do you know what ... I don't think anybody ever held any grudges. I know I remember my dad telling my me how he and ....... Joe got beat up by White people because they were Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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Mexicans. But they don't hold grudges or anything like that. And then ... you know ... I remember going out ... like to Lubbock and stuff like that ... and these little White girls picking on me and throwing my ........ saying ... You're ugle and you're Mexican ... and ........
G: See ... and she's 21.
..: I know it still exists.
M: Right.
..: It still exists but I don't hold any grudges. And I think that Mexicans have always been real welcoming to other races. Because in my family we have Black people ... we have White people ... Mexican ... it's no big deal.
..: I know when I used to go to school ... because I didn't talk English ... and every time that teacher would hear me talk Spanish ... she got me up and put me in the corner because I couldn't talk English. (laughter)
G: ...... that's your job ... teach me, lady.
..: Well, see in the first grade ... when I started school ... in the first grade ... they would put all the Mexican kids in the same room ... the Mexican-American kids would be in one room ... separate from the ... all the other first graders.
..: Yeah.
..: But in a way I guess that was good ... because ... you know ... our parents not having an education and all ... it Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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wasn't then like it is today ... where little kids ...
G: Are mixed with other races?
..: ... except ... no ... they pick up English from the TV ...
G: Oh, yeah.
..: ... and they grow up ... by the time the get to be in the first grade ... well ... they can communicate.
..: Yeah.
..: Well, it was difference with us ... see ... we spoke Spanish all the time ... so ... in a way it was good ... but they would do that ... separate all the Mexican-American kids ...
..: Just like ......
..: ... by the second grade we would be integrated with the rest.
M: ..........
G: When I was coming up in school ... which was in the '50s ... it was all Mexicans. I didn't have a ... another ethnic group in my class ... I think ... til I was in the 7th grade.
..: Yeah.
..: Well, see, for us it was different becuase like John was saying ... all of us migrated ... our parents migrated and there were only a few Mexican-American families in a White ...
..: Environment.
..: Yeah.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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..: ... environment ... so it was really ........
M: Did you feel singled out then because of it?
..: See when I was in school ... I started school ... I was the oldest ... my parents didn't know English ... okay ... they couldn't help me with my homework. I mean I had to struggle and struggle and do it on my own. Okay ... my sisters came along ... my brother ... we started talking English among ourselves ... that what we studied in school ... and the thing about it was ... our parents got mad at us.
M: Really?
..: Can't you speak Spanish? ..........
G; Uh-huh.
..: You know. You speak your own language. I don't want you to speak in English in this house. Well, gradually it started turning around ... you know ... and they started learning the English ... I mean ... they know enough to communicate ... they don't know it ... real good ... but it's enough to communicate.
G: They picked it up from you.
..: Yes. They picked it up from us.
G: From you and the kids ... yeah.
..: And then ... now they talk to the kids in English ... because the kids can't speak Spanish.
M: Yeah.
G: That's the thing ... that's what we were talking about Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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earlier.
..: And they can't speak the Spanish ... they understand it ... my kids understand all of it ... they just can't speak it.
G: Uh-huh.
..: ................
..: It is.
G: Yes, it is.
..: I'm having to struggle to learn how to speak Spanish ... you know ... I took Spanish in junior high ... when I was in school down here ... and ... you know ... what they tried to teach you was correct ...
G: Right ... Castilian Spanish.
..: ... and ......
M: The kind I tried to learn ... it's not as functional as ....
..: I got in trouble ... you know ... at school 'cause she asked ... Well, how do you say "to get?" And I said ... ........... And she said ... That's not a word. And I said ... Yes, it is, my grandma uses it all the time.
G: And if she uses it ... it's a word. (laughter)
..: So I got in trouble ... you know ... but that's the Spanish that I had heard ... you know ... it's not like the what ... you know ... and I thought ... Well, she's White anyway. So ...Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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G: What is she? (laughter)
M: Let me say one thing real quick ... there's a lot of questions we're supposed to ask and we haven't ... one really important one ... I hope we can all say a few words before Sally does indeed jerk me away with a cane ... (laughter) ... what should the message of the exhibit be? What should a visitor go away from the exhibit feeling or thinking as a result of having see it? That's the most important thing you can tell us. And would each of you try to say something to that.
..: I thought ... like ... I can tell you everything our family is all about. Number one is God and religion, number two is family, three is hard work, number four definitely music in my family.
M: Very well put!
G: You know ... out of those four ... three are them are section that we wanted ...
Sally: And the music is .......
G: ... and the music is part of it.
..: Part of it.
G: And in every part of it it's involved.
M: Yeah.
G: There's music involved with religion ... there's music ... the family music ... what you remember ... you know ... at home ... and then at work ... you know everybody's got radios Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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.......
M: Mr. Cortez, what would you say is the important thing that the exhibit should say?
LC: I would say ... I agree with Regina ... it has been a struggle ... I would say that the exhibit needs to show that ... in this part of Texas ... for the Mexican-American in this part of Texas ... has been a struggle ... but it has been overcome. A struggle has been overcome and it's paid off and we're proud ... we're a proud people ...
M: Alright.
LC: ... because these four things ...
M: Those four.
LC: ... has kept us together and put us where we are now.
M: Alright. Mr. de Nueva? I'm sorry ... we'll all have a turn.
..: What I remember as a little girl was that my mother ... we lived on a farm and we couldn't make it to church ... you know ... as often as we were supposed to ... but she would teach us prayers at night ... ........... and then family because we were all together and we had to work ... ........ the farm is hard work ... all of it ... we had to work to eat ... and as togetherness ... you know ... after everybody left home ... you know ... we try to get together as often as we could ... as often as possible ... and after she passed away ... well, Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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it was still togetherness ... teaching us ... my dad had the same ... he said ... You need to learn how to work ... don't waste your time ... do the best that you can ... and when you work no matter what kind of work it is ... because ... he said ... I'm going to die and I don't have a million dollars to leave you. So all I'm going to leave you is the knowledge of ... you know ... to know how to work. So that was a very strong point with him. And he said I don't care what kind of work you do ... do the best you can. You know ... don't waste your time. Of course that was ........ how to work hard.
M: Well said ... thank you ... than you. Mr. de Neuva?
JN: ...... this all this thing has been happening ... .......... ... you know ... it's in the past now ... my only concern is that to just love one another.
M: Thank you. Mr. Flores?
JF: I agree pretty much ... you know ... like Regina was saying ... you know ... God, family values, and what was the other one? ...
G: Work.
JF: ... work ... work together. In my opinion education is where it's getting us now.
M: That that is important as well.
JF: Uh-huh.
M: And you three young ladies ... what would you like to see Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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our exhibit say or have in it? Would you tell us your ages as you each talk? Because we haven't interviewed young people before and yet people your age will be coming to see the exhibit ... so we really do appreciate what you have to say. Christina, how old are you?
CC: Ten.
M: Ten. What would you like to see in an exhibit about Hispanics ... about Mexican-Americans? It's hard to think I know. Michelle, do you have an idea? Julia?
..: ..............
M: If you think of ideas you drop us a note because we sure want to hear from you all. Is there anything that anyone here has badly wanted to say and simply hasn't gotten a chance because the conversation moved off of it?
..: Could I ask you something about the work exhibit?
M: Uh-huh.
..: Are you all going to put kids in there? See ... because I grew up ... even when I wasn't working ... I grew up on the field ... I grew up playing with the dirt and stuff like that ...
G: Sure ... stayed in the shade. (laughter)
..: My brother was in a little carrier and I say ... I stood there and I took care of my brother when I was ... you know ... before I started ...Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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G: That's been addressed ... yeah.
M: That's a good thought too. Because people have told us before about taking small children to work with them.
..: My mom would make us a little shade and we'd just ...
G: Spend the day ... yeah.
..: I saw ............. (laughter)
M: Great idea. Sorry, I didn't ... didn't catch ...
..: I saw her put dirt on his head when he was little. (laughter)
G: She was .....
..: And ... you know ... like my sisters ... you know ... my little sister, Brenda ... you know ... when I started working she'd be walking right behind me with the ........... ... it was too big for her to carry ...
M: She was how old?
..: ... walking out there with us ... you know ...
M: When she was how old?
..: Uh ... she must have been ... I'd say she was at least like 5 maybe ... we were all like that ... we'd follow my parents with the ............. ... you know ... and if we weren't playing ... you know ... (laughter)
G: Do you ... as a young lady ... do you ..... in your community ... do you have or do kids nowadays ... do they have role models ... Hispanic role models that they look up to? They had ... Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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I posed this question to some kids in El Paso ... high school kids ... and I was pretty much taken for a loop when ... because I was expecting them to give me like Madonna or something ... you know ... some modern person ... and you know ... we had two young ladies ... from Mexico but they had been in the United States ... and both of them ... they said their role model was their mothers. Okay. She had instilled in them that nothing was impossible ... there's nothing so difficult if you put your mind to it you could do ... you know. And when she said ... my mom ... ..: I think it's my ......... ... I say ......... ... but she's my grandma ... but because she had to work hard ... she raised a lot of kids and I know they had it hard and everything ... and especially now she's the backbone of our family. ........... gone you know ... he left ... you know ... but she's the backbone of that family ... and she's the one that holds us together.
G: And you know ....
M: Sally's bringing the whole crowd out here to force us to stop. (laughter) I'm really sorry we didn't get to more ... but I want to thank you all. This has been extremely informative.
G: If you think of something that you want to ...
..: How can you possibly get all that ...?
M: We can't ... now way.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas
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..: ....................
G: It's impossible ... you know ... once we get back to San Antonio what we'll do ... we'll transcribe those and put them on paper and ....
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTESTHE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Meetings
INTERVIEW WITH: Pete Perez-Montalvo, Joe Carrillo,
Mrs. ...... Bernal, Lucy Garcia,
Father .... Rameriz
DATE: 16 October 1994
PLACE: Lubbock, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Phyllis McKenzie
M: ..... Phyllis McKenzie of the Institute of Texan Cultures, today is October 16, 1994, we're at St. Joseph's Church in Lubbock, Texas, for a Community Meeting about the Tejano exhibit. You'll now here the voice of the people who will be interviewed on this tape.
P: I'm Pete Perez-Montalvo from Lubbock. I'm involved in the Texas State Museum with the Spanish ... Hispanic ... Mexican ... Spanish-Mexican Compound ... in a permanent Hispanic Gallery.
C: I'm Joe Carrillo. I'm from St. Joseph's Parish here in Lubbock.
..: My name is ........... Bernal ..... St. Joseph's Parish also ............ Altar Society ........
G: I'm Lucy C Garcia. And I belong to St. Jospeh's Church since 1926.
R: And I'm Father Rameriz, pastor of St. Joseph's.
M: Mr. Carrillo, a minute ago before we started the tape, you were talking to us about the different terms and names that have been used for your culture ... for your group ... would you repeat something of what you were saying just a minute ago.
C: ..... What I was saying that I think there's a confusion ..... I guess in Texa ... you know we've been considered different type of names ... you know. First we were ... what? ... Mexicans ... and then Latins ... then Latin-Americans ... then Chicanos ... and now we're ... what else was it? ... Hispanics ... and now we're Tejanos. You know we get all this type of names. And like I said ... if ... I think this is a confused type of ... I guess ... ........ or .......... ... since we're talking about culture. Now you have in other countries ... like here we are considered to be foreigners if we know 2 languages ... or 3. Any other part of the world they're considered to be somebody that really ... the educational ......... ... part of ... you know ... of the culture. But here they regard us as you know ... foreigners ... because you know languages ... you know ... you don't speak 2 languages here in this country ... you speak American. Well, what is American you know? Somebody mentioned ... Let's all go back to what is American. You know ... Indian ... you know ... just because it's English ... it could have been German.
M: What word would each of you use to describe your ethnic or cultural heritage? Mr. Carrillo mentioned several ... which one would one would you each use if I asked you what's the right one for you personally?
P: Mexican-American.
M: Mexican-American.
C: I would prefer Mexican-American ... you know ... from Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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Mexican parents. Mine was from Mexico and moved to New Mexico ... so I'd really be Mexican.
M: Mrs. Bernal?
B: The same ......
M: Mexican-American.
G: Mexican-American.
M: Alright.
R: I think that with all the changes that have come around ... like among the Colored people ... before they used to hate to be called Blacks ... and now they say Black is Beautiful and they're proud of being Black. And I think we have also identified ourselves with that and we don't mind being called Mexicans ... we're kind of proud to be called that. Or to say that we are. But I think the younger generation prefers to be called Mexican-Americans.
P: It bothers me when I hear the menu for the school children on television in the mornings and they say ... We're going to have enchilladas, beans and Spanish rice ... it is not Spanish rice ... it is Mexican rice ... paella is Spanish rice.
M: Uh-huh. We were talking a little bit ... a minute ago I was saying that things are different in the Pan Handle ... than in South Texas ... or in San Antonio where we all are from ... what differences do you all notice ... do you feel is differnt here from Tejano culture in other parts of the state? Or do Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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you feel that there are differences?
P: When I travel to other parts of the state the Hispanics ... the Mexican-Americans ........ are more mono-lingual ... more apt to watch English television or listen to English radio than the Mexican-Americans in this region. Here there is a closer affinity to the old culture than there is even in San Antonio ... Austin ... Houston.
M: Why is that?
P: I think it might be a reaction to some of the injustices and cultural isolation that was experienced by the Hispanic community when it first settled in this area. Where in those other parts of the state the Mexican-American has become acculturarized and become a part of the greater-American scene. You know ... a lot earlier time than what this happened in Lubbock.
M: Uh-huh. Would anyone else like to comment on that?
C: I think like you were saying ... I think ........ you had to learn Spanish ... instead of you know vice a versa ... ............ you know ... but most .......... know Spanish ... whether they were Germans ... Jews ... or whatever ... Blacks you know ... well, they know the Spanish here ... they look at you as ... the difference between the ......... ... they look at you as a foreigner if you know 2 languages ... and I think Lubbock's one of the biggest ... to me ... and I've been Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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here all my life ... one of the biggest bigotry and racist town in the state. And you know ..... I think it should be .....
M: That's how you feel?
C: .......... That's how I feel. And yes ... that's how it is.
M: Well ... that's ...
C: They just hide it.
M: Well ... we're here to look ...
C: ......... it wasn't in the open way back here at ... I've been here all my life and it wasn't in the open then but now they've closed it down ... it's still there.
M: Uh-huh.
C: Still there. It's just having trouble with jobs ... good jobs ... most of the kids are educated and leave town because of the ... well ... you can't get a half a decent job ... you do the ... any little old thing that you do wrong they're going to fire you ... and this is part of ........ culture here ........ Very well qualified people here ........ culture ... but because of this ... they just retire.
M: Mr. Perez-Montalvo was mentioning there's more isolation here and a different history ... it wasn't settled as early in time as South Texas ... I'd be interested in ... in the personal background for each of you ... when did your family first come to this area? how many generations ago? have you Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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each lived here all your life? or not? So Mrs. Garcia, would you tell me first?
G: I came in Lubbock since 1920.
M: 1920.
G: With my mother and my dad. I ...
M: Where did they come from?
G: They came from ... we came from Roswell, New Mexico.
M: And why did your family come?
G: Why?
M: Uh-huh.
G: I don't know ... I was ... I was a small child then ... I don't know why they moved to Texas.
M: Was it for work?
G: Yeah ... they came out here to pull bolls ... or cotton ... whatever. And it was 3 families. It was my grandmother ... my mother's mother ... and my uncle ...............
M: Uh-huh.
G: They came in 1919. And then we came in 1920. They were here before we did so they tried to bring us over.
M: Uh-huh.
G: So that's the reason we came over.
M: So family connection was here.
G: Yeah. Three families was here ... the Carmonas ... ....... and Castillanos. ........Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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M: Mrs. Bernal?
B: We came in the early '50s over here because my mom was sick with asthma and we took her ... the doctors told her that we needed a better climate for her ... this was ...
M: Where did you come from?
B: Houston, Texas. And I never knew any discrimination until I came here.
M: Is that right? What was different here than in Houston?
B: Yes. Over here ...
M: What specifically did you encounter here?
B: Well ... we went into a restuarant after school to drink Cokes and they wouldn't serve us. And I had never experienced that before ... it was a shock to me.
M: Father Rameriz?
R: We came here ... we began coming to this area in 1937 and that's when ... my dad had died and my mother and brothers and sisters used to migrate from the Central part of Texas and we came to this area and then we used to come to the park there ... ......... Park that's there now ... and there used to be a barn there ... where all the migrants used to gather. And then the Anglo would come to hire the people and take them to their own farms to pick cotton. So we landed in Abernathy. And we began to come there with the Harrisons up until the '50s Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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when I left for the Seminary. And we came there every year to pick cotton. When the harvest was done we went back home and we missed from September to December going to school. Because of the migration and having to work. So every year that we went back to school we started in January which used to put us back every year. And then in 1950 in this area this was the only church ... besides St. Elizabeth ... but this was THE Mexican church and there was no other churches around in the area ... so we used to come to mass here to St. Jose every Sunday and then the Palentine Fathers came here in 1950 and then I joined them in '54 and went to study in Ireland for 13 years and then I was sent home to be ordained here in this church. I have served in Texas since 1967 and I am back in San Jose as pastor for 10 years. Now, in the meantime we also underwent a lot of discrimination. Since we were migrants.
M: Uh-huh.
R: And I remember distinctly one restuarant that was down on Broadway ... and there was a sign on it that said ... No Mexicans or Dogs Allowed.
M: Is that right?
(mixed conversation)
R: That really hurt ...
G: Yeah.
R: ... really hurt.Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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M: Can understand that.
R: It wasn't until lately that that restuarant was closed. Just lately.
M: The sign had come down hadn't it?
R: It finally closed ... but the man moved to 4th Street ... he's there across from Gilbert's ... around there.
And so this is some of the experience that we went through. We were only allowed to walk as far as Texas Avenue and from there back that way is where all the Mexicans used to buy their food ... buy their clothes ... but we couldn't go beyond Texas.
M: What happened if you ...?
R: Because that was for the Anglos and from there ... from Texas down that was ... east ... was for the Mexican people.
M: If you did venture beyond Texas Avenue what happened?
R: Well, it was ... they didn't throw you out ... but they let you know you weren't welcome there. And this was the kind of feeling that was there. Now ... we are proud and being a priest now ... a few years ago I had an Anglo priest here with me ... and we've always had 3 masses on Sunday ... one in English and 2 in Spanish and Saturday night in Spanish ... so he ... we wanted to see if the people wanted to have 2 English masses and 2 Spanish. And so we took a survey for 2 weekends and we were really surprised that the Mexican people said no ... we want our Spanish masses as they are and we only want one Anglo Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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mass and that's it. And the only reason why we come to the Anglo mass it's for convenience's sake and no other reason. And it was because it wasn't too late or too early. So that's going back to what you said I think. That we're proud of our culture ... even though we live in an enviornment of ... where English is spoken and even our youth speak more English now than Spanish yet the culture and our costumbres and whatever ... we still have them and I think we're still very proud of them.
M: I wanted to talk a lot more to all of you about the conditions you remember from the past. I want to make sure our other 2 gentlemen have a chance to tell us how their family came to be in this area. So let's talk about that and then we'll move to other ... Mr. Perez-Montalvo?
P: My family came from Monterrey, Mexico, in February of 1964. We lived in Eagle Pass for a few months where I attended school in the 4th grade. Just before the end of the school we became migrant workers. And we went to work in the fields in Colorado and we stayed there for most of the summer. Sometime in early August of '54 we came back to Lubbock. We found out we were not cut out to be farmers. My father was a construction foreman in Mexico and Lubbock was experiencing a building boom at that time. So we stayed in Lubbock where we did very well in construction and in educating us. I, like Father Rameriz, I Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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also experienced some discrimination early on. We lived about 2 blocks from here and a church ... man came up and asked if I would take part in the Christmas parade ... downtown Lubbock ... and I said ... my mother said yes ... she consented. And they had myself, a Black child and a Vietnamese lady from the University ... I remember her because of her costume ... which I later became quite familiar with when I was in Vietnam. We sat on the flatbed truck looking at a world and the bible open in front of it and ... on a very cold day we paraded through downtown Lubbock. At the end ... this was an Anglo church ... I believe it's the First Christian Church ... it's on ... about 2 blocks east of University Avenue on Broadway ... it's the very first church ... big church that was there. They took us to a restuarant on Broad ... on Main and Avenue X to treat us and they took us through the front door ... it was an Anglo minister and 3 minority children ... and they wouldn't serve us. And so they took us around the back of the restuarant and we sat outside ... on a very cold December day ... on produce crates and there they brought us our food. And that's where we ate.
M: How did an incident like that make you feel?
P: If ... it's galvanized ... it's in my mind ... no matter what else is said or done ... no matter who my friends are ... I don't mistrust Anglos ... but I know that this is a part of Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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our past and I deal with it. It doesn't bother me. I'm very proud that I experienced it because now I can deal on a different level with ..... people. I benefited from it personally.
M: Really? You have not felt embittered from it?
P: Both of my ex-wives are Anglos and my children are half and half and I deal very well in both cultures. And also with the Black community so it expanded my knowledge of the world.
M: That says a lot for your own character too I think. Mr. Carrillo, will you tell us how your family came to be here.
C: Well, I guess just like the rest of them I just migrated here because of the work. I did work in the fields, cotton fields ... I think dad was mostly ... well, ..... generally took people to the fields ... kind of foreman type of ... truckero they used to call them ... they ... they ........ mesquites ... they used to hire people to dig them out ... .......... I think they used to call it at the time ... you've heard it? ........... used to do a lot of his work here ... that's when they took all those mesquites out of the fields ....... cotton fields out of them ... I, in fact, I remember Reese up here ... before they ...... airport base ... they did that job in that area ... and I just like the rest of them ... they came in and say ... you know ... talk to the railroaders here ... some of them came from the ranches you know ... cattle ... cowboys Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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and what have you ... and then they came in to the railroad ... ....... cotton fields ....... ... mostly migration ... for work.
M: Uh-huh. It sounds to me like most of you have had some background on the migrant trail and I'd be very interested in some details of that life ... what did you eat ... how many hours a day did you work ... how did you feel about the people that you were working for ... were they treating you fairly ... or unfairly ... what did you do in the evenings ... what did yo do for entertainment ... did you have enough money to buy necessities ... any and all of these topics ... if you could fill in some details ... you're the first groups of people we've talked to in the whole state who've really had an agricultural background and in order to represent this in the exhibit we sure could use help from just what details do you all remember as being significant.
P: ....... role in 1954 we worked la ........... ... that's cleaning out the cotton and getting the weeds out.
M: Uh-huh.
P: And we worked for 40 cents an hour. I was a big 10 year old. At that time it was 40 cents an hour ... 10 hours a day ... half an hour off for lunch. There was water at the end of the row ... by the truck ... there were no toilets of course ... we brought our lunches from home. In the morning ... early Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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on a truckero would come by and pick us up ... and sometimes it would still be dark ... we'd go and drive ... they brought us out to the fields somewhere ... quite a ways from the city sometimes. At the end of the day there was not a whole lot of energy left for anything even though you were a youngster you were beat by the sun ... you were beat by the sun. And on week-ends we were off Saturday and Sunday and we would go to the movies downtown ... those that allowed Hispanics to go in. And again they were all on the ... to east of Texas Avenue. And like Father Rameriz said, the streets were wall to wall with farm workers who came in on Saturday to buy their supplies and clothing and anything else that they needed. And ultimately it was that power of the money that opened up the rest of the businesses as far as allowing Hispanics to come in.
M: Who else?
R: Basically that's exactly what we did. Only we weren't with a truckero, we were privately working for one particular person. But we used to come to Lubbock every ... every week-end. And buy the groceries for the whole week. And maybe take in a movie if we could stand in line for hours before we could get in. And then we used to come to confession and go home and then Sunday come back and go to mass and then go back home. And as Pete says after a long day's work there wasn't much that we could do except rest and prepare for the following day.Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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M: What were the living conditions like? What type of dwellings?
(laughter and mixed conversation)
R: The living conditions ... it depended ... I guess we were very lucky ... because we were hired by this particular family and there was no other family there but just us. So we had a pretty good house and the conditions were good. Of course the toilet was outside and but otherwise it was okay. But other people who worked for truckeroes really had it bad. I mean ... their conditions ...
M: Bad in what way? What did they have?
R: ... were really bad. Because ....
M: Tell me what they were like.
R: Maybe Pete might be able to enlarge on that.
P: Well, the houses that we lived in ... the very first house that we lived in was out here 104 North Avenue M and it had holes in the walls ... holes in the floor ... if it rained it leaked ... broken windows. It was the only place where we could afford at the time ...
M: You were renting it?
P: Of course, yes. We moved away from there ...
..: Joe, tell ........
P: ... and we rented another house in another part of town ... not very far from there.Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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..: He said ..........
P: Again the toilet was outside. There was water in the kitchen ... very ... very ... rudimentary kitchen ... nothing like what we know now you know ... the sink was not ... there was no sink. It was a very primitive living. Winter-time ... around here it's a lot colder than it is in South Texas. My dad would make sure that ... in bed he would come over and cover us up at night ... make sure that we didn't freeze during the night ... because it was possible I suppose under the conditions that we were living we could freeze.
M: Did entire families work the fields? Did children and women?
P: By that time my dad was working in construction. I had a sister who was 15 and my parents sent me along with her to work in the fields ... kind of keep an eye on her ... I guess I was her chaperone ... it was quite common for then to have a ... for a younger brother or an older brother to be assigned ......... ... so that's what my duties were and of course I worked alongside too .... ... but yes, there were whole families that would come out there and work.
C: I think it was some of the clan-type of deal though ... grandpa ... grandma ... you know ... and the uncles and aunts and the whole ... you know ... they ...... it was just a clan-type of a ... families that keep together ... took a farm over ... Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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they would probably be together anyway ... ....... ... most of the ... back then ... I was talking to a gentleman ... and he said ... I liked it then. ... you know ... because of the closeness of the family. I said ... ........... you know ... poppa's not there ... both of them are working ... and grandpa's not there anymore ... you know ... family's elsewhere ... just ........ divided ... then it used to be a little clan-like deal ... grandpa was there ... the respect was there ... everybody was watching everybody ... and I think that was part of ........
M: You feel families were closer knit ...
C: Were closer knit.
M: ... in the generation ago than now?
C: Than they are now ... sure.
M: Do the rest of you feel that as well?
G: Yeah. That's ......
M: What has caused the change?
G: I don't know. Everybody takes their own home ... their own place you know ... and that's why they split out. Like me ... I'm just home ... me and my husband. Our kids own their own homes and out of the family.
M: Some people have told us they think the family unit is stronger in Hispanic culture than in society as a whole ... than among Anglo people ... how do you feel about that?
G: Well, our family was pretty close 'way back ... not anymore Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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... we've ...
M: Not so much anymore?
S: How far away do your children live?
G: They live here now! (laugher)
M: Sally, would you identify yourself, please?
S: I'm Sally Wiskeman and I've just had a similar conversation elsewhere and the gentleman said ... My children have moved away. Well, where are they? Well, in San Antonio, they're outside of 1604 ... which means you're about 10 miles away. My children ... I have one in Florida and one in Houston ...
G: I've got my mother in California ... 5 brothers and sisters in California. So our family is just spread out.
S: But your children ......
G: My sons and daughters are here.
S: That's wonderful.
G: But they sometimes don't even have a chance to call me and say ... Good morning, mother, how are you?
S: (laughter)
R: I think a lot has to do with our religion ... our Catholic upbringing. That keep us together even though we may be far away yet we keep within the family unity on the faith that we have ... brings us together once a year whereby we can visit with each other and share with each other the experience of the past year. And if we keep that tradition within the Mexican Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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people. And I know that we as a family ... there was 11 of us ... so we still ... even though we are scattered all over ... we still try to meet once a year to see each other and to see the children's children growing up. So I think that our faith has a lot to do with ......... ... the unity that keeps us there.
M: That's one of the ties that ...
R: And the traditions ... how tight-knit ... ......... ... even though we live in a different enviornment with ... ....... in a world that's so different from our ... from where we came from ... that even though we're still part of it and yet we're still a part of our own culture.
M: Thinking in terms of the exhibit ... how could we represent ... for instance ... the importance of religion? ... for that's part of what's tied your culture together and represented continuity? What could we put in the exhibit to show that? What would be appropriate?
P: Well, the family cohesiveness is related to the religion. The ... in this particular region ... the ... again the cultural isolation.... forced on the Mexican-Americans by the exterior community ... forced it to turn to itself.
M: Uh-huh.
P: Our families to turn into ourselves ... and whatever was ... whatever method is chosen ... whether it's a diorama or Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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an exhibit ... those 3 components represent people of this region's culture.
M: Which 3 components?
P: The church ... the family ... and the isolation forced upon us. Where we came here to work and develop the land and the industries and so forth ... but we were not allowed to become an integrated part of the whole culture ... so that brought us together and that is what has given us cohesiveness and the strength. And whatever the exhibit has has to incorporate those 3 factors ... to be representive of West Texas Mexicano.
M: That's interesting that you say that ... people in other regions have mentioned at least 2 of those things too. They've said family and religion. That perhaps all across the state that is something important. Our question is how can we best represent it in the exhibit? Perhaps one suggestion that we hear is make sure have a Virgen de Guadalupe. Some people say a home altar ... if there's either an altar in their home today or they remember there was one in their parent's home. Has that been your experience? How many have an altar in their home today? One, 2, 3 ... did your ... did your parents have altars?
C: I don't .........
M: What was on them?
(laughter and conversation)Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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P: ............ ... la Virgen ...
C: Guadalupe ...
G: Have la Virgen de Guadalupe ... and Jesus ....... ... you know ... that statue ... out of ceramic or whatever it's made out. And I've had that stutue since ... oh ... about 30 ... 35 years. And you know how much I paid for that statue?
M: Tell me.
G: Fifty cents a week.
M: Fifty cents a week.
G: .............. and it's a man .........
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
M: This is side 2 of the Lubbock Community Meeting for the Tejano exhibit, today is October 16, 1992 ... 1994. This is Phyllis McKenzie facilitating.
Right before break we were talking a little bit about home interiors ... and home altars and what sort of things were on home altars and some people were talking to me about that there were a lot of pictures in their home ... of family members ... could we talk a little bit about that? Where ... one idea we have is to try to re-create the interior of a living room and if we did that ... we've got 2 problems ... one is of what date? ... of today? ... of 20 years ago? ... 40 years ago? Whatever date we pick to represent ... the next question is then ... Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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what goes in it? ... what is appropriate? So I'm kind of asking you for your ... your memories ... and what you think would best represent the culture? First of all ... should it have a home altar? Is that appropriate?
P: Is representative of something prior to 1950 I would think ... yes.
M: Uh-huh.
P: Maybe even after 1950. A lot of times we still have.
M: Thoughts from other people?
C: ........ typical ........ Mexican home ... what you see is each other's pictures ... you know ... the grandkids and all this ... when you go in the house that's what you see ... it's a pride in family ... you know ... even though they're a 100 miles away ... 2,000 miles away ... you walk into a typical ........ home I guess you could ......... ... the pride of the Mexican home would be ........ you'd see pictures all over the place. I'm talking about a ... Christ would be one ... Virgen de Guadalupe ... ....... ... the pride of the education part of the ... graduation pictures you know ... and you'd have ... well, the .......... ... it goes back to ... kind of a story if you will ... you know ... that you go through those pictures ... what is this? ... and there's a story behind every picture on the wall.
M: What about a picture of a person in the military service? Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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a son or a husband? Is that ... would that be something they would put on the wall and be proud of?
P: Uh-huh. Very much.
M: You all feel that.
R: Yeah, I think ............. is very true. In my experience as a priest whatever home I go into there's always the history of the family there before you ... in photos. The whole family as it grew and as it was at one time and then how it began to branch off and the whole story is there in photos. How one particular daughter or son got married and the day they got married and so ... and then their children and so forth and so on. And so if the family is a family of 10 the whole sitting room is full of photographs.
M: Lots of pictures.
R: All the children and all their children's children and grandma and grandfather ... it's something beautiful. And that is part of the heritage that we belong to ... the culture and the beauty of being part of that Mexican family. And of course Our Lady of Guadalupe right in the middle of it.
P: Something that I noticed a lot of after the ... President Kennedy was assassinated ... is that in many homes that had the altar ... along side somewhere there in a prominent position ... near the crucifix and the picture of the Virgen de Guadalupe ... you also find Kennedy ... a picture of John Kennedy. He Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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was very admired ... very much admired by the Mexican-Americans you know ... the camposinos ... the lower income people ... they admired him a lot.
M: Do you still find pictures of him in homes today? Or was that more true 10 ... 20 years ago?
R: Yeah ... still some ... I have seen him in several homes ... John Kennedy ........ And I think the very fact that he was a Catholic had a lot to do with it ... the first president ever in the America being Catholic and of a large family. I think we associated ourselves with him a lot and admired him for what he was. And when his life was taken it really hurt the Mexicanos a lot because we became so attached to him and depended on him for .......... ... that we could trust and then when he was gone then ... just broken hearts.
M: What other heroes or people that you've admired? In either past or present. Do you think would be typical?
R: I think that the other person that took his place was Cesar Chavez?
..: Cesar .......
M: Do you see pictures of him in homes?
R: He was the one that kind of followed in his footsteps and we kind of went with him after that.
P: I've been advocating among the people in the community ... I would like to see Avenue Q re-named Cesar Chaevz Blvd.Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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M: Is there support for that idea?
P: Among the Anglos there is dismay. (laughter) Among the Hispanics ... the Mexican-Americans ... they say ... ..... What a great idea! It's not an original idea of course. But other cities ... Austin already has a Cesar Chavez Avenue so this is where I got the idea. But around here it's either yes or my, gosh, why?
C: ...... Mexican name on the ...........
M: When you were each children ... who were your role models? Where they famous people like for instance President Kennedy ... were they your own family members? ... your father? ... your mother? ... or an older brother? Who did you look to for guidance?
P: There's a sport figure I looked up to ... ....... Avilar ... he was a major league baseball player ... I don't think he was Mexican. I think he was Venzuelan. But the name ... you know ... I used to like baseball a lot ... and so any name that was Hispanic ... you know ... I always assumed that they were Mexicans.
M: You felt a link to. Uh-huh. Mr. Carrillo?
C: I didn't have a role model all the time. I can't remember .....
M: No models?
C: I just had to know enough about them to even consider them. Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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B: I think mine was my aunt ... she was very Catholic and she had ...........
M: Uh-huh. What were the qualities you admired about your her?
B: Well, she was very loving and she always ... you know ... she always was worrying about us being ... to mass ... and she cared a lot about our faith you know ... for us to grow up in our church and stuff like that. And she would always make sure that we would be there. More than my parents.
M: More than your parents?
B: Yes. I remember that ...........
M: Father Rameriz?
R: I guess I would owe my vocation to my mom and dad. The deep religion that they instilled in all of us. And the respect that they used to have towards the priest. And they kind of ... I guess in a way ... when you look at it nowadays ... they had him up on a pedestal ... and it was just that they admired the man ... they respected the person ... for what he represented ... and you just were never allowed to say anything but nice things about him. And look towards him as something different from us ... somebody ... And I think that instilled in me the vocation that I have now.
M: I was just going to ask ... when did you start thinking that you would like to be a priest?Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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R: Be one of them ... yeah.
M: When you were a child you already thought of that vocation?
R: Yeah ... I think I grew up in that enviornment and that kind of pushed me on to being what I am today.
M: When Mrs. Bernal was talking about her aunt I thought that one thing I'd like to ask and perhaps you should be the one to tell us first is ... what role do women play in preserving your culture and heritage?
B: I think they were very important because I think the ... mostly the mother was the backbone ... I guess you could say ... of the family ... in trying to ... you know ... make sure that they were going in the right way. Usually the father was busy working and sometimes ... you know ... .......... maybe ..... compadres ........
M: Could you men each tell me too what you remember of your mother or whoever were the significant women in your family when you were young? What was she like? What was her role in sharing the work of the family and passing on values and raising the children? Like ... I'd like for each of you to address this.
C: I personally ... mother has always said work ... you know ... she said work was ... you know ... was one of the main things that a person ... especially a man should do ... but yet I agree with ... because the woman was instrumental way back there and Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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even more than now ... 'cause she was home all day long ... she was doing the home chores ... she was a lady-of-the-house ... she was the backbone of the family at the time ... whatever she said ... until he comes in ... well, that was it. And if you didn't like what she said you were ... ......... and you was going to get it ... one way or the other ... you'd get it.
M: Mr. Perez-Montalvo?
P: It was the same way at our house. Mom kept everything going. She cooked ... she shopped ... she put us ... she insisted on us going to school ... she made sure we had the school. She told us stories about the ... the role models you asked about awhile ago ... I mean ... our family they were men and ... generally men ... like my grandfather ... great-uncles. We repeat names in our family. We get ... I was named after my dad's Uncle Pedrocero and so on and so forth ... my son is the same way ... and so they would tell us stories ... ................. heroic things that he did ... kind things that he did ... kind things that my grandfather did ... this was done by my mom.
M: She was passing on family history.
P: Right. Yeah. And along with that ... creating role models for us. We ... like yourself ... I didn't have any great role models in the community other than just Bobby ....... Avila ... the baseball player ... So I guess maybe my mom was Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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substituting those role models by giving us family history that we could emulate.
M: Uh-huh.
P: Mom kept it pretty much running ... she's the ... she's the one that did it all. Dad provided ... but she may all the day-to-day decisions.
M: Father Rameriz?
R: We used to ... we used to look up to dad as the provider ... the one that went out ... had to .... ... sometimes when you think about it it seems to me like he was the bird that left the nest and went for the worm and brought it home to mom and all the children. So mom was really the real important person in that home. She carried the load and everybody obeyed her. And she was the one that had everything ready for you when the time came ... whether it was a meal ... ironed clothes or washed clothes or whatever ... she was there. And she was the one that used to stay up at night until all her children came home. And even though sometimes we used to take off our shoes and tiptoe into our room ... mom would hear us come in ... and she would say ... Is that you, Julian? ... or ... Is that you so-and-so? And the son would answer ... Yes, mother. And she would say ... Go to bed. That was all. So she would be the ... I think she would be the role model that we had in those days. We didn't have leaders but we had a great mother. Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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And I was one person that ... that I really loved that woman. And I had a funny way of showing it ... because if she was cooking I used to go and grab her by the back and just squeeze her to death until she got tired and got loose and whatever she had in her hand she threw at me. I used to go and pull her hair or take off her apron ... but that was my way of saying I love you ... I appreciate you ... and I just admire you for who you are and who you represent. We all have different ways of showing our love and respect and this is how I showed mine.
M: I suspect she appreciated those big bear hugs.
P: She did.
M: I'm a mother of 4 so I would like that.
P: And you know when she died then sure we missed her ... I did. But then I was glad that I was able to express all that love when she was alive. When she could feel how I felt about her ... when she could see me ... and I used to express that love and gratitude ... when we used to meet eye-to-eye. And I think that's the way it should be done. And that's the way I did it. And I'm very happy I did. And not wait until she was gone and then ... oh ...
M: You bet. One thing that's been mentioned briefly a couple of times ... today it's been education ... those of you who were on the migrant trail mentioned that you started school late and people have told us in other meetings that their family Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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... their parents ... stressed the importance of getting an education so that you ... the children ... can have a better life than the parents did ... was that the experience that you all had? And what education where you able to get?
R: Well, us being a family of 11 it was ... it was pretty tough. And they ... mom and dad had to sacrifice a lot. Of course I became a Missionary priest ... there was no experience involved in that ... but then my other brothers would stay home ... and sisters ... for instance ... one way or another they were educated ... they reached goals ... they were qualified ... they are qualified in their own capacity ... and it was a great sacrifice. But we got there. And I think we owe it all to the dedication and sacrifices that mom and dad had to make. And the commitment that they had to continue encouraging us to go ahead ... that it could become possible. And so we owe it all to them.
M: What was the experience of other people?
B: Myself ... my father became ill and he had to go to a Veteran's Hospital ... so that's where he was most of the time I was growing up. And ... but my mother stayed here and she worked and she sent us to school. And the one thing that she never, never wanted us was to be on welfare or anything like that. She just worked hard. And she .......... And I guess she ... she just worked hard ... and we worked hard too ... Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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you know ... after school ........ But then I got married and I finished my education ... high school ........
C: At the time I was growing up ... and I never did graduate from high school ... like I think it was simply because most of the kids ahead of me that was graduating was at the fields about the same time that I was ... not as young ... they wasn't even ... .......... graduation when I'd go in the fields ... and ........ graduate to be in the fields like they were .......... ............. So this is some of experience that we had with the education part of it. Of course God ... you know ... perseveres ... myself .............. I'm not a ... you know ... a graduate ... but I'm ... family all graduated ... that's one thing about it ... they all came out ... I had 6 of them ... they all graduated ... because I didn't I was sure that they would.
M: Alright.
C: So this is part of the education.
M: Sure be a source of pride.
C: ......... and I think is what would happen ... and I think this is kind of discouraging ... me and a lot of the others about the same age ... ........ a couple of years and just going into the fields like the rest of them ... ........ ... and I think ... I don't know whether it was done intentionally or not but that's the way it was.Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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M: Uh-huh.
P: There were 4 before me in our family who did not graduate ... I was the first one to go through high school and finish high school and go on to college. My parents always emphasized the fact that it was necessary and I'm very glad that they did. I look now back and am very grateful that my life has turned out as it has because I did go to school. It's something that I encourage the young people nowadays to do. And knowing the dropout rate that the Mexican-American children have and the needs of high-tech industries ... it appalls me that we have such a high rate of dropouts.
M: The schools that you all went to when you were children ... tell me a little bit what they were like ... were you the minority or where they mostly Spanish speaking children? Were you allowed to speak Spanish? How were you treated?
P: I attended ... the very first school that I attended in the United States was Stephen F. Austin Elementary School in Eagle Pass. I was a fourth grader in Mexico in a parochial school so they put me in the fourth grade in American school. I couldn't speak English but I was far ahead of my contemporaries in math and in science ... spelling and language and all of that I didn't know anything about. In the playground I didn't know the rules because they had been explained to me in English but I was talking in Spanish to another kid and all Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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of sudden something hit me on the head and it was a big University of Texas graduation ring that a man teacher had ... he came back and hit me ... real hard ... I cried ... I cried ... I was a very small fourth grader I guess ... just a very timid fourth grader ... and that was my first experience with discipline because I spoke Spanish in the playground. In the local school system ... I went to Sanders Elementary which was ... early Mexicano's at that time ... there were a few Anglos ... no Blacks ... and it was a very rough school ... a lot of older kids who should have been maybe in junior high or even in high school still attended as 5th graders and 6th graders ... so there were a lot of fights after school. There was a lot of intimidation going on. Of course mom would come and meet us right outside the school and we'd walk home with her. After that we moved to another part of town where I was a minority in terms of the rest of the kids being Anglo and that's when I really began excelling in academic work and learning more English. And after that I went to a junior high that was primarily ... I was ... for 2 years I was the only Mexicano ... by the 9th grade there were others but not very many of us. I graduated from Monterrey High School in 1963. Monterrey is again ... at that time was all Anglo ... my graduating class there were 2 Mexicanos and maybe 714 ... I would say ............ Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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M: Who else ... talk about their school days?
B: ..... I think in my school ... I went to Hunts Elementary ... and there was a mixture of Whites and Mexican-Americans ... there were no Blacks there that I can remember. But we got along well and I had a lot of Anglo friends. And I remember they were happy times ...........
M: Did ... did the Mexican-Americans speak Spanish? Were they allowed to?
B: No ... you were not allowed to speak Spanish ........
R: We didn't know any other language but Spanish. 'Cause my mother and dad were from Mexico. So when we started school ... I mean ... we started from scratch ... and we didn't know English so ... and we weren't allowed to speak Spanish. And I remember distinctly when ... because we used to live out on the farm and ride a bus and mother used to make tacos for us and torillas ... not ........... ... but tortillas with beans and then wrap them up and roll them up and when lunch time around we were so ashamed to bring out the tortilla and eat it because everybody else ... the Anglo children had sandwiches and all that ... and we had ... there we were with our tortilla eating ... and that was our experience in the school. And of course not being able to speak when we wanted to ... our own language and ... I guess we were forced to learn English ... and that's how we came to learn it ...............Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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P: .......... just reminded me of a similar experience ... my mom would prepare my lunches and I felt very awkward ... again like yourself ... eating a tortilla in the lunchroom and the other kids were buying their lunches or would bring sandwiches ... so I had my mom ... to avoid the embarrassment ... make me sandwiches but it was with food that would ordinarly go in a taco ... you know ... papas con chorrizos ... or papas con ... whatever it was that she put in it ... but it would be in a sandwich form. (laughter)
M: Quite a compromise.
C: Talking about school a little bit ... you'd think that ... looking at it back now ... you know ... that you go off and look ......... ... I don't think we had as much ... to me ... it seems like now that I look back ... qualified teachers teaching us the language. Even now ...... we check them out ... you know ... schools ... the Black schools ....... ... and the public schools are not getting qualified teachers ... the best teachers are in other parts of the well-to-do districts. And I think this ... I remember back there that ... yeah, we had a quilt-man for a principal ... you know ... somebody that sells quilts on the streets ... and his name was Mr. ................ And you know ... this type of deal. And I look back and see that we had a quilt-man for a principal ... is this right? ... you know. And I think since then ... well Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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... ...... grown up and the kids were going to school ... I attended a lot of PTAs. You know ... I think that's one of the main things ... that you need to pay attention when the kids are going to school ... that you must be there in order to see that the things .......... and I think ... you know ... but it is ... I don't think we're getting the right teachers ... you know ... in our schools. .............. now ... like you say ... you learn more in Southwest Lubbock you would in any other part of town. Because they do ............. qualified teachers. Teachers are teachers and they work hard ... ...... problems in our areas because of the ... culture's different. But if they are smart enough .... as a teacher they can overcome the barriers if they want to. You know ... I think that's ... I remember here awhile back in ....... order to have a teacher ........... she had to retire at what? ... 65 ... something like that ... she had to retired once from a school ........ retired from this other one. Now this lady's too old to be teaching ... you know ... some of the young ... I ............ so this is a ............
M: One exhibit idea I meant to ask you all about and we're practically out of time and I see I'd forgotten was ... we're thinking of putting a truck ... maybe just the truckbed ... with the cab looking like it's fading into a painting or maybe a whole truck with the cab that would play Spanish radio from Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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different periods ... but the truck itself ... a migrant laborer's truck taking them to the fields. This idea has had some very ferocious reaction from some people. They have said that would be a stero-type ... a put-down ... and that should not be in the exhibit. Since some of you do indeed have migrant-laborer backgrounds ... tell us how you feel about that and if we should do it ... what's the correct way to go about it ... what should be included?
P: I have an opinion on that because I've experienced some of this opposition you're speaking about ... in talking with different people several years ago about what I would like to see in a museum as part of the exhibit ... part of it was that I'd like to memorialize the efforts that the Mexicano made to the economy of this area ... the farmworker for instance ... that's the basis for this ... the wealth in this empire ... .......... And I suggested a saca ... a sack where we put the cotton ... and people opposed that. Well, to me that's very much a part of our background and part of what we need to pass on. And likewise I think maybe the radio music program may not be appropriate ... but some form that gives the youngsters nowadays a historical perspective of what it was like back then and what we did and what our grandparents did and what the people that came before us and why they came ... and so I ... while I respect peoples' opinion about it ... I Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church -
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personally feel it's very much a part of our background and we need to recognize it.
M: I'd like to change the tape before anyone else talks ... I'm nearly at the end again and I want to make sure I get all or your comments.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Meetings
INTERVIEW WITH: Pete Perez-Montalvo, Joe Carrillo,
Mrs. ..... Bernal, Lucy Garcia,
Father ..... Rameriz (Tape 2 of 2)
DATE: 16 October 1994
PLACE: St. Joseph's Church, Lubbock, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Phyllis McKenzie
M: This is tape 2 , side 1, of the Lubbock Community Meeting, Phyllis McKenzie facilitating, today's date is October 16, 1994.
We were just talking about the possibility of having a migrant-laborer truck in the Tejano exhibit and I was asking you all your reactions to this. We thought it could possibility even be a story telling area where a live actor could tell some of the stories that we've all been talking about now ... about the background ... about what conditions were like. How do you feel about this as an exhibit element?
R: I think that the mural that we have down there in the park is a very clear expression of the history of the Mexicano here in West Texas. The part of it ... not all of it ... the Mexicans picking the cotton ... the trailer ... or truck there full of cotton ... and then the church ... Our Lady of Guadalupe ... all that ... I think those 3 things they express very much our history in this part of Texas. Don't you think so Pete?
P: Very much. The people that settled this area ... whether they were Anglos or whether they were Hispanic ... Mexican-American pioneers ... whatever their background ... Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church -
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now ... they met a very hostile enviornment ... this is a very cold area ... the weather is very hostile ... whether it's in the winter or the summer ... and so those were adverse ... adversaries that we ... our people had to overcome ... just like everybody else. But in addition to those elements that everybody had in common our people also had the hostile envionment of the rest of the community. And so the work that we did needs to be emphasized.
M: ........?
C: I think that the talking ... what we're discussing right now ... the young people now say like ... ......... they don't relate to any of this ... you know ... they never had to work. I mean ... you know ... they'll go to ......... they don't even touch cotton. I mean ... even though we've got thousands of acres they don't even go out there and touch the cotton anymore. Or they never have. So there's no relation between our past and the future as far as ... you know ... they're just stories like ... you know ... the war stories ... or whatever it is. And I think this is why ..... just a story about cotton picking and what is cotton picking? And I'm glad the machinery came in when it did. (laughter) I think it helped us a ..... 100 percent ... I'm glad it came in when it did. All this machinery. Even though it hurt a lot people ... I think it helped us a 100 percent ..... education part .......Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church -
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M: Yeah. Everyone who has actually picked cotton has mentioned what exhausting work it is.
C: Oh ......... you know ... you're constantly ...
R: It was a way of living. It was a way of .....
C: Yeah ... it was ... you know ...
R: It was the only thing that we could do without being discriminated. And so we went for it. And we enjoyed it and we lived up to it. I have nothing to be ashamed of.
C: Well ... this machinery ... what I was saying that the ... yeah, the work itself was a back-killer. I don't care ... somebody has worked in those fields ... ....... killed you. ............. if not it gets your backbone out of whack ... so ...
M: Sally just gave us the 5 minute signal and one question I haven't asked is extremely important so I hope we can fit this in a little bit of time we have left and that you all will give me your ideas. What should the message of the exhibit be? What should a visitor leave the exhibit thinking or feeling? And maybe another way to phrase the question is ... just what are the most important things about your culture? That you would like to communicate. Would each one of you take a turn wrestling with this question?
P: I like the fact ... I would like to leave a visitor feeling good about the fact that we are different but we are Americans. Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church -
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We're slightly different because of the ... well, for many reasons ... whatever they might be ... and that will be addressed in the exhibit. But the contributions that we've made ... the development of the land are many ... contributions that we've made in time of war are many ... we have defended very faithfully the flag, the Stars and Stripes. Our origins were of conflict and we had an opportunity in this region ... in this state ... to become ........ and fight among ourselves and continue as they have done in parts of the world ... in the Middle East ... I mean Eastern Europe ... and in other parts ... we don't do that here. And that's a great pity ... not only to the Mexican but to the Anglo that we've dealt with. And basically I guess my message would be ... Hey, respect us and give us a chance to do ... continue to be Americans.
M: Thank you. Mr. Carrillo? What should the message of the exhibit be?
C: I think it should be something between the past and the present and future. I don't know exactly what but I think it should be ... .............
M: Talking about the fact that there was a continuity from the past to now and will continue.
C: ............ we must get educated ........ I think that's one of the things ........ educated ... you know ... if you succeed in this country ... in this time and age ... not only Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church -
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in this country anywhere in the world.
M: And what else is continued through time as far as the value to your culture?
C: .........
M: Mrs. Bernal?
B: The faith and the unity in the family.
M: Faith and family unity. Real good. Father Rameriz?
R: I think we're just as much Americans as any Americans and we're just as much Mexicanos as we ever will be. And so we're proud of being ... of 2 ... being part of 2 nationalities and yet being unique in our own. That we can ... we have contributed a lot to this nation as a race of Mexicanos. And we deserve to be treated equally in every level of society. And ... but still we are unique and separated because we are Mexicanos.
M: Okay. Thank you all. One thing that's arisen more than once today are some of negative experiences you've all had ... the discrimination or the conditions that you've been forced to live in ... or being punished for speaking Spanish ... which of these should we include in the exhibit? How should be include them? Or should we include in? Some people have said that would make the exhibit negative and other people have said that that's part of the experience ... that that is part of the truth ... and it should be there. And many other things that we haven't talked about but the fact that the Texas Rangers Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church -
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sometimes dispossessed people of their land ... some of the negative and abusive things of the past ... how should we address this?
P: Joe.
C: Well, ... life was tough.
P: If you don't address the past you're going to make the same mistakes and so they need to be addressed. The ...... Museum ... I think there's another one that just opened in New York ... Washington that deals with the Holocaust ...
M: The Holocaust Museum ... uh-huh.
P: Those things ... while the indignities that our people suffered are not as great on the level of what was done to the Jewish people in Germany ... they do need to be included. I think that they need to be addressed. The format ... how it's going to be done ... you don't have time to address ... I'm not the person to address either ... but I strongly feel that they need to be recognized ... they need to be recognized ... and even talked about ...........
M: That was obviously the signal from Sally that I'm imprisoning you all here (laughter) ... but if any of the rest of you would like to say something on that topic I'd sure like to hear it before I shut it off ... about how do we address and talk about ....
C: I think it should be tape ... I think a tape ... if anybody Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church -
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wants to hear ... you know ... don't you think?
P: Yeah ... maybe that .......
M: One possibility ... let me tell you ... if our tape is clear enough there's a possibility that we'll take some excerpts of what you all said today.
C: You have a tape ......
M: It let's visitors hear that.
C: ... it's automation ... and just want to hear the story ... story-teller from ... you know ... .............. ... you don't have to ...... pictures ... you just hear the stories like the radio ... used to hear the radio ... you remember that radio we used to have 'way there ... with one light and ....... radio ... What was it ... what was the show 'way back then ... ? (laughter) ...
R: I don't know of any way ...
C: The Shadow I think was the ....
M: Thank you all ... and I apologize for being a slave-driver. You probably realize some of the other groups were .....
C: I enjoyed it .........
M: ... getting an easier time of it. But thank you all so much for talking to me. I've really learned a lot. Appreciate it a lot for you all taking the time to talk.
P: Thank you for the opportunity.
M: There is a light supper being served and just mingle Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church -
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informally with anyone out there.
R: Make sure you ......
C: Oh, for supper I'll ... we'll stay.
(laughter)
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1.
SIDE 2 - BLANK.
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Description
| Title | Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, Abernathy, Texas, Part 2, October 16, 1994 |
| Interviewee |
Flores, Juan de Nueva, Juan Camacho, Christina Camaco, Michelle de Nueva, Julia Camacho, Jack Lopez, Regina |
| Interviewer |
McKenzie, Phyllis Galvan, Lorenzo Wiskemann, Sally |
| Description | Transcripts of community meetings conducted by the Institute of Texan Cultures as part of the Tejano Community Advisory Group. |
| Date-Original | 1994-10-16 |
| Subject | Mexican Americans--Texas--Biography. |
| Collection | University of Texas at San Antonio Institute of Texan Cultures Curator of Exhibits Records |
| Local Subject |
Activism/Activists Education/Educators Mexican Americans Texas History |
| Publisher | University of Texas at San Antonio |
| Type | text |
| Format | |
| Digitization Specifications | 24 bit, 200 dpi |
| Source | Tejano Community Advisory Committee meeting, Abernathy, Texas, Part 2, October 16, 1994: University of Texas at San Antonio Institute of Texan Cultures Curator of Exhibits Records |
| Language | eng |
| Finding Aid | http://www.lib.utexas.edu/taro/utsa/00258/utsa-00258.html |
| Rights | http://lib.utsa.edu/SpecialCollections/services_copyright.html |
| Full Text | THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES Tejano Community Meeting INTERVIEW WITH: Juan Flores, Juan de Nueva, Christina Camacho, Michelle Camaco, Julia de Nueva, Jack Camacho, Gina (Regina) Lopez, Andre ........ Leonardo Cortez DATE: 16 October 1994 PLACE: Abernathy, Texas INTERVIEWERS: Phyllis McKenzie and Lorenzo Galvan, Jr. Sally Wiskemann M: This is Phyllis McKenzie of the Institute of Texan Cultures, today is October 16, 1994. We're in Abernathy, Texas, at the John ........... farm for a Community Meeting for the Tejano exhibit. Also posing interview questions will be Lorenzo Galvan, Jr. We're going to now identify all of the voices on the tape. JF: My name is Juan Flores. JN: My name is Juan de Nueva. CC: My name is Christina Camacho. MC: My name is Michelle Camacho. Julia: My name is Julia de Nueva. JC: I'm Jack Camacho. LC: And I am Leonardo Cortez. G: I'm Lorenzo Galvan, Jr. G: Okay, let met just ask a general question and then ... all of you are from Abernathy or surrounding areas?Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 2 ..: Well, I was born in Robstown, Texas. G: Okay. ..: Robstown ... but I grew up around here. G: You grew up around here. What I was going to ... my question that I'm going to pose to you is that ... do you feel that there are certain traditions or certain traits that stay in a certain part of the state? like something that is common up here would not be like from say where you're from ... from Robstown ... or maybe there's something over there that people tend to do a lot more than people here in the northern part of the state? Do you feel like there are any certain things like ... maybe you don't celebrate Dia de los Muertos or quinceaneras or something. You know in some parts of the state that's not heard of. We were in Edinburg back in October of last year and one of the gentlemen that was in one of our groups ... I think he was a school teacher ... wasn't he? ... or ... a doctor ... yeah ... he was a PhD in history or something ... when he got really upset about that because he said that's something that's from Mexico we don't practice that ... you know. Yet in San Antonio it's a very common thing. So we've noticed as we've travelled all over the state that we found people that have these traditions but they tend not to continue doing them ... they don't pass them on to their offspring because of the fact that it's not ... you know ... it's not cool ... Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 3 don't do that. It's rather more of a ... ......... ... I want you to continue to do ... because it's part of your culture ... you know. Do you guys feel like there's any things like that that tend to keep people together? ..: Yeah ... we've got our traditions mostly the way ...... San Antonio ... Robstown ......... mostly ... some of them ... like we have quinceaneras ... we've got 2 quinceaneras ... we just had one yesterday. G: Uh-huh. ..: We've got one next week. M: And are they the same as South Texas? ..: They're the same ... it depends ... you know ... on the deacon priest that comes and celebrates the quinceanera ... actually it means the same. G: Uh-huh. ..: Most of the traditions that we have ... G: Baptismos and all that traditions. ..: ... Baptismos are the same. The quineacernos I don't know about in San Antonio or back up that way ... but I think they celebrate from the 10 or 11 ... but here we celebrate it when they are 15 ........ G: 15. ..: ... years old. ...............? G: Uh-huh ... yeah.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 4 ..: I don't know about back there ... but here ... everything's the same ... around here ... everything's the same. G: Traditions ... yeah. M: How about the rest of you? Did you all grow up here? ..: I agree. I grew up here. I've been here all my life. ............ I agree with what Juan said. And I was thinking about this gentleman that you say had never heard of quinceanera ... it's possible that ... see ... quinceaneras ... know that it was religion ... G: ........ ..: ... and it's possible that this gentleman may have been ... G: Protestant or something. ..: ... yeah ... denomination and sometimes they don't like to accept things like that. G: That's very true. ..: But most of us being ... you know ... Mexican-American ... from Mexican descent ... follow those traditions. ..: Right. M: Talk just about the history of the area. When did your family ... your ancestors ... first come to live in this part of Texas? ..: When? M: Uh-huh. How far back?Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 5 ..: A ... let's see ... my father was born in San Benito, Texas. ..: Down in the Valley? ..: Uh-huh. My mother was born in Mexico. Okay ... and they met somewhere near Robstown ..... (laughter) ... anyway ... to make a story short ... they came during the cotton harvest ... to pick cotton. G: Up here? ..: Uh-huh. And they would stay and work during the harvest season and then go back to the Valley. And they did this ... you know ... back and forth ...... M: When was this? what year? ..: This was before I was born. Okay ... and then doing that so often they just decided well, why don't we stay here and ... this was in the '40s ... right before I was born. M: Was there a Mexican community here at that time? ..: Uh ... it was just .... ..: ........ ..: ... organizing from the same ... G: Migrant workers? ..: ... ...... people ... people that would come and work the fields and some decided to stay and then the next year some more would stay and we gradually grew larger. But I was born in 1945. I was born on the farm about 10 miles north of here. ..: Uh-huh.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 6 ..: My dad worked for a farm and ... I was looking at that picture up there ... that brings a lot of memories ... cotton harvest time ... 'cause that's what my parents did. And I remember ... my earliest recollections ... recollections were of being in a car or truck and watching my parents pick cotton. G: You were still too young to get involved ....... M: Do you still farm today? What do you do now? ..: No. I work for the Metro Gas Company in Lubbock. But my daddy taught me that farming was good but too many hours to work. ..: That's right. ..: And he stressed education. That's one thing. G: That's something that we've found that's very common amongst the Americano communities ... that the parents instilled this ... you know ... get educated ... you know ... because you don't want to do what I did. It was tough for me and I don't want to see you go through this and then it just keeps getting passed on ... you know. ..: My dad ... M: Did your parents own the land that they worked? ..: No. Unh-huh. My dad worked ... went to school for ... up to the third grade ... and that was it ... so he really stressed education for us kids. And my mother ... no formal education Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 7 at all. And up to this day she doesn't speak English. M: Is that right? ..: She's 73 years old. M: And did all of your ... you and your siblings get the education that your parents wanted you to have? ..: Most of us. M: Uh-huh. G: Just like anything else ... not everybody else follows along. M: ...... Would the rest of you talk about how your families came to be in this area? Julia, would you talk? Julia: Well, my dad was born in ... both of my parents were born in Texas. My grandparents were both from Mexico. And they married somewhere around San Antonio ... ............. After marriage they moved to ....... ... Waco area ... and that's where I was born ... .......... ... that's were I was born. And I started school when I was seven ... there. And then when I was ...... we moved to Dallas. It was a big change from the farm. My dad was farming ...... work in the farms with the landlords ... he would .......... ... he said ... I don't know what this means ... he would work on ............. G: Yes, like sharecropping ... uh-huh. Julia: Sharecropping. G: Uh-huh ... that's what it is. They pick and then split Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 8 the profit. Julia: Yeah. Well, and then my family ... I was next to the youngest ... six of us ... and my older brothers and sisters did all the work ... all I did was take care of the chickens ... and ... you know ... ............ ..: Wow. (laughter) ..: Gina. G: Hi, Gina. M: We had a new member just join our group and she will say her name for the tape. RL: My name is Regina Lopez. M: Hi, Regina. RL: And I'm 21 ... and ... M: Pleased to have you. What we're talking about right now is how your families came to live in this part of the state. And we'll have one of the gentlemen here talk about it first and then we'll probably ask you the same question. G: Excuse me, before you continue, you said your parents were raised around Knippa ... or what was it? Julia: Yeah, that's were they were. Well, my dad was from Eagle Pass and mom was from Soledad. G: Oh, okay. Julia: That's were married. My dad got there somehow ... I guess working.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 9 G: The reason I'm asking is I travel that Highway 90 quite a bit and I always go through that town and I had never ... Julia: It's a little bitty town. G: ... I had never met anyone that would say ... Well, I'm from there. ... or ... I know somebody from there. You know ... it's just ... Julia: I have some relatives there ........ G: There's a sign that says ... Go ahead and blink ... Knippa's not that little. (laughter) Julia: Uh-huh. Little bitty. G: Yeah. ..: What's the name? Julia: Knippa. ..: It's K-n-i-p-p-a. ..: Yeah. G: That's the first I've heard ....... ..: Really? ..: It's about 20 miles ... 10 miles ... west of ... I mean east of Uvalde. G: Uvalde ... yeah. Between Uvalde and Hondo. ..: Yeah. M: Mr. de Nueva ... will you talk .... JN: Okay. Well, I used to be ... used to be a migrant you know ... until ... I was born in Robstown ... you know ... where Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 10 that new Interstate goes now ... through ... G: 37? Yeah. JN: Yeah. There used to be a farm there ... but there's no farm there no more ... so I was born there ... right in there. And we started going out to the states ... you know ... here and then Wyoming ... Ohio ... and Montana ... other than just working ... in the beets ... sugar beets ... and onions and potatoes ... well ... while we were down there in Robstown ........ reason we used to go back my dad used to work in the yerba ... you know ... ...........? G: Uh-huh. JN: ......... radishes and all those vegetables out there ... and we started going out ... coming out here to Lubbock until we finally ... see what made us ... what made ... I think ... what my daddy may change his mind not to go out anymore ... is because we had a wreck ... near Clovis, New Mexico, ... about 1950 something ... and we had a little ... I had a little cousin that died from that wrecking and we just ... he decided that ... no more. G: Uh-huh. JN: So we stayed around here and found work and he just ... he's 80 ... he's going to be 80 years old in January ... he's still working on that farm. M: Is he really? Good for him.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 11 JN: And ... ..: ......... JN: Uh ... that's about it ... you know ... there's a long story that I had ... that ............. ... but I would like to save it ............... let somebody else .......... M: Well, I'd just like to ask one more question ... you and your siblings ... are you farmers too or what work do you do? JN: No ... I am disabled. And the reason I am disabled is that sometimes ... you know ... as a Spanish ... Mexican-American ... Spanish ... we get too proud of each other ... of ourselves ... you know ... and we go to drinking ... we go to this ... and we go to that ... we messed up our lives ... and that's what happened to me. ............. So it disabled me ... ........ I have cirrhosis of the liver ... I'm a diabetic and I ... you name and I have it I guess. So it's a ... you know ... ............. because my dad doesn't drink at all ... I never did see him drink ... once in awhile I seen him drink a beer ... and he never did finish it ... you know ... but ... I just picked it up along the way ... with the little friends ... you know ... that you get mixed up with and sometimes those little friends cost you. G: That's right. M: Right. Absolutely. Mr. Flores. JF: Okay ... my parents were both born in ... around San Antonio Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 12 ... Floresville ... and my father used to do a lot of migrating with his daddy to Arizona ... Michigan ... Indianapolis ... they used to follow ... back then ... and then when he met my mother and they married there in Floresville ... I was born there ... but I was brought up North here to Abernathy. Well, not Abernathy ... but to Rawls ... and Rawls is about 20 miles east of Lubbock ... and I was raised and went to school there ... well ... better part of our lives. He was a farmer and we lived on the farm all our lives. The thing he was always stressing was get your education ... don't do like ... like I am ... you know ... breaking my back ... but ... M: Is that what happened? JF: ... what brought him ... ..: Did he really do that? JF: Yes. We brought him ... what brought him over here was the better pay ... 'cause he was ... especially the gins back then used to pay something like a dollar an hour here and they were making like 25 ... 50 cents an hour in ... ..: Down there? JF: ... South Texas. And he said work was very scarce and he came down here ... when he came down here he didn't know English ... he had education ... he said he was about 2 weeks education ... that was in Arizona ... and he said he ... he was the biggest guy there ... he was like 10 years old and he Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 13 was in the first grade ... he said the teacher always made him carry the ... the ... ..: ......... JF: ... the record player ... because they used the record player in the room a lot ... and he said about the only thing she wanted me to do was carry her record player ... so I just quit going. G: (laughter) M: Gosh. JF: And my mother ... she had no education ... but most of us were ... 2 brothers ... 4 sisters ... and all of us graduated at one time or another. ..: ........ JF: High school or GED. G: All of you still in the same general area or? JF: Yes ... well ... one ... we're still in the West Texas area ... although I've got a sister in Odessa ... and a brother in Abilene ... the rest of them are right here around the Lubbock area. G: That's interesting because up ... in my experiences ... I've noticed that the ... the Hispanic people tend to stick close to where they're raised ... you know ... unlike the Anglo and ... I imagine some of the Hispanics now are doing it. They grow up ... they get married ... they get educated ... you got Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 14 one in Florida ... you got one in California ... and somebody's in Montana ... you know ... they just go on and make their life wherever they want to. I find that very uncommon from the ... my generation of Chi ... Americanos ... like in my family ... one of my sisters who lives the fartherest from my mom's house ... I think she lives like maybe 7 miles ... you know ... I mean ... it's just like everything is real close ... you know. And I talk to friends of mine at work and they ... Yeah, my sister's in Ohio and my brother's in Florida and ... you know ... but they're from the next generation ... you know ... they're younger and I imagine when I hear you talk ... I'm sure your ideas are a lot different ... you know ... but ... M: ........ would you tell us how your family came to live in this area ... how many generations back ... the first .... ..: Do you know what ... I think probably Leonardo or Juan know more about my parents than I do. (laughter) M: Why is that? (laughter) ..: Well ... I mean ... you know ... I mean ... you just don't really ... I don't know ... well ... we never really get a chance to talk about it. I know my dad was born in Waco ......... ..: Uh-huh. ..: And they pretty much stuck to this area. And my mom was born like in Littlefield and they stayed there for awhile but they went to .......... ... that's where they lived ... you Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 15 know ... my mom's whole family is down there. And we went ... you know ... I was born down there ... and then my dad brought us back down here. So I've lived all my life ....... M: He brought you back down here to do what? What kind of work was he doing? ..: Well ... I don't think it really had much to do with work ... but I mean ..... family ...... M: He came because of family ties. ..: Uh-huh. And so we pretty much ......... I know that they all used to work in the fields and stuff like that ... cotton ... and so did I ... I grew up in the ........ you know ... since I was 9 years old I was working for the .............. out in the fields ... ..: Wow. ..: ... so ........ M: Just a minute ... we have 3 young ladies in our group ... and I wanted to ask you all ... have you lived here all your lives? Michelle, have you? MC: We ... (laughter) ..: ......... MC: Okay ... I think I was born in Abernathy ... M: Abernathy ... alright. G: Local. M: Christina?Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 16 CC: I was born in .......... M: ........... that's nearby. Didn't get your name ... who are you? ..: Andre. M: Andre ... yeah ... where we you born? (mixed conversation) ..: How old are you? G: I'll be 50 next month. When we were talking about the family ... unlike my sisters ... there's 3 of us ... and my kids ... I don't think there's one that lives within 15 miles of me ... I mean ... the just .... they scattered. Sally: How far away are they? G: Uh? Sally: How far away are they? G: They're all outside 1604. M: That's not far. G: Oh, yeah ... yeah ... that's in San Antonio ... but I mean ... they're not close. (mixed conversation and laughter) ..: .......... but ....... out there in ... somewhere along Dallas ... Lancaster ... along in there ... and one of them does ... her mother's the one that lives here in Lubbock. M: Talk to me about your feelings about family. You heard us telling you that we kind of feel family should be one of Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 17 the themes of the exhibit ... do you agree with that? do you think that is a strong factor. (mixed conversation) ..: Yes. ..: Uh-huh. M: What are some samples from your own lives of the strength of family? ..: We have a 20 ... well he was born in '68 ... how old would that make ... would that be 25 ... '68 ... 26 ... M: 26 ... That's when our museum started. ..: Okay ... that's right ... he turned 26 in June ... he's single ... he still lives at home. He's on his own ... but he's still at home ... ........... but he's still at home. And we're ... we're ... we don't complain that he's at home ... he's welcome there as long as he wants to ... you know. We don't want to pressure him to get married if he's not ready although I think they're getting engaged. And then ... he's our oldest son ... we have another son that's married ... he lives in the same town ... in Abernathy ... he's about 10 blocks away from home ... and then we have a younger son that's a senior in high school. And he's talking about joining the Marine Corps when he gets out of high school. M: How do you feel about that? ..: Uh ... I feel like the military training is good for a Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 18 young man starting out. In fact, I'm kind of strong ... I was in the service myself ... and I'm kind of strong on the military ... I think that it ought to be mandatory ... G: I hear you ... I hear you. ..: ... for ... G: Everybody. ..: I think that if it were that way for the young men ... ..: We wouldn't be what we have today. ..: Right. We wouldn't have this gang problems and stuff. ..: Yeah. G: There's a lot of discipline that can be picked up in the first 2 months of basic ... you know ... that's something these kids don't have. M: Let's not leave the family topic until everyone's ....... talk about that. Sally: Let me interject for just a minute ... since we don't really have time for a real break ... at any time that you feel that you'd like to go and get some coffee or go to the restroom or something ... please feel ...... M: And I'm a slave-driver ... so you going to have to signal me when you're ready ... (laughter) ... I'll keep you here forever if I can get away with it. But ..... the rest of you can think of things in your own life that showed the family was something strong or important?Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 19 ..: My family was always ... have always had pretty close ties with our parents. I mean as far as that goes ... we always did things together. We got a ... they knew us like the back of our hands .... G: Uh-huh. M: What did you do together ... what kinds of things? ..: Oh ... just all kinds of things ... I mean ... as far as family gatherings ... going out ... vacations and all this stuff ... everything was done as a family. G: Let me ask you ... do you feel that being ... let's say ... from the farm ... does that style differ from the city ... ..: It differs ... yes ... it does ... greatly ... G: Is it because they have more avenues ... they just scatter a lot faster ..... ..: The kids that are raised on the farm seems like they've got a little more respect ... G: Uh-huh. ..: ... for others. They know the value of a dollar ... they're taught early to work ... G: Uh-huh. ..: ... and ... I mean ... I was working at the age of 6 and 7 ... I was already working in the fields. G: Uh-huh. M: That's one thing I would like to talk about ... those of Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 20 you who can remember when you were children ... either working in the fields yourselves ... or seeing your parents work ... would you tell us something about the working conditions? ......... ..: We had ... our working conditions were fairly good ... I mean ... we had electricity ... we had water ... we didn't have inside toilet ... I mean ... that was beside the point back then ... you were lucky if you had inside toilet ... but I think that we were one of the lucky ones to be ... to work for the people that we did. Because daddy worked for 3 guys ... 3 farmers ... in the time that he was into farming. He worked 8 years for one ... then like 10 for the other one ... and then the rest of them ... we even got ......... ... on that farm we lived 20 years ... and all but 2 got married from there. And they treated us like family. M: Is that right? So you were very fairly treated. ..: We were fairly treated ... but I'd see the ... some of the other places ... some of the other people ... you know ... that weren't treated as fairly. I mean we didn't make the whole bunch of money ... but I mean ... our conditions were a lot better than others that I could see. Especially ... especially the Blacks back then. M: They were treated worse than you were? ..: They were treated worse than Hispanics. Hispanics had Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 21 a house. Blacks used to live ... they might ... you know as well as I do ... ..: Tent or something? ..: Well ... no ... not tents ... I didn't see them live in tents ... but I saw them live in barns ... what we call ........ . G: Yeah ... just put them all .......... ..: It was a family in there ... it's a one-room ........... ... you know ... we used to keep seed in there ... for the harvest. And they'd clean it out and put them in. And I remember going to school and the bus would stop and it was a barn ... picking up Black kids going to school. G: Uh-huh. ..: ........ when we used to migrate ... we were migrants you know ... they used to put us ... one time when we were down there ... we were staying at this and we went to work in the onions in Victoria ... Cuero and Port Lavaca ... G: Uh-huh. ..: ... and there was this big barn and they had stalls and in each stall there was a family. G: That's what I remember. Yeah. ..: And we were in one of those stalls. And we couldn't get ... when we went to town we had to watch for the stores what we buy because they had signs there that ... No Mexicans ... Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 22 No Colored. And when we went to the movies they had us a sign there ... No Spanish ... not offending anybody ... you know ... but ... M: What period of time are we talking about? ..: It was in the '40s and '50s. M: '40s and '50s. ..: I remember the '50s. ........ ..: When we got here to Lubbock there was 3 or 4 ... 2 ... 3 ... 3 ....... there were 3 ........ you know ... they had a sign in there ... No Spanish ... No Mexicans ... M: Is that right? ..: And in the restuarants ... you know ... ...... going from town to town ... we used to get coffee ... we didn't have any coffee ... my uncle and my dad ... or my grand-daddy ... my grand-daddy was from Mexico and my grandmother was from Mexico too ... but they said they sent them to the back so they could get the coffee ... so they wouldn't be seen ... ............ M: How did you and your parents react to that kind of overt discrimination? ..: We didn't react to it then ... but we reacted ... what hurt us is now that we think back ... see? That's my feeling you know. I ... and I don't have any ... any ... regr ... what I mean is I don't have any ... I forgive what they did to me. G: You don't hold a grudge or nothing.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 23 ..: I don't hold a grudge against them ... you know. Whatever they did ... you know ... they did ......... G: It was a thing of the times I guess. ..: I think a lot of the ... a lot of this has to do with the Blacks. Back then they were always struggling and fighting against it. G: Uh-huh. ..: And we ... the Hispanics ... the Mexicans ... just took it in stride. G: Uh-huh. ..: We didn't raise our voices very often ... we didn't ... we just ... if we were ... M: Why do you think that was? ..: If we were ......... on one side ... we took it ... you know. Blacks on one side ... Whites on the other ... Hispanics and Blacks on that side ... we just went through that life. M: Do you know why the difference? ..: I don't know why the difference was ... I mean ... I'd like to know why ... ..: To me it was the way we were brought up. ..: I think it was .... ..: I mean you respect others ... that respect will ... (mixed conversation) G: You being the youngest in our group ... have you ... have Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 24 you been exposed to any of this? ..: See ... you know ... like with my parents I know they had it a lot worse than I did. And now I think the younger generation is kind of losing its little sense of tradition and what their roots. Because I know I did for awhile ........ M: How old are you? Would you mind telling us? ..: 21. M: 21. ..: 21 and I know I didn't have it as hard but I thought I had it really hard. You know ... I didn't have to go out and work in the fields for 12 hours a day ... I only had to work 8 hours a day. You know ... and I ... (laughter and mixed conversation) ..: ... I thought I was just ... I thought I was ... I thought I was going to die ... but my parents ... you know ... they were out there younger than I was ... G: That was sunrise to sunset back then. ..: Oh, yeah. ..: And you know ... I think that my parents also have more respect for their parents than I had for them ... and I think that ... you know ... the way everybody used to work hard it made them more humble and I know that ... G: So true. ..: ... and also ... you know ... I kind of wish that I would Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 25 have gotten to grow up in that time era ... because I mean everything's just so ... you know ... everybody's so entwined together and everything ... ..: Yeah. ..: ... and now the younger generation now has this idea where I'm not going to be worth anything unless I go to school ... and if I make something of myself ... and so they put off making this family ... you know ... making a family. But my dad ... like this summer I have like a 4 hour chemistry class and I came home a little late ... you know ... and he said ... I want you to just quit school ... get married ... and give me grandbabies. (laughter) G: I've got news for you, dad. ..: But you know I don't think that that is so bad ... you know ... that's like my main goal now ... you know ... like I've kind of been out there ... and been around ... I met ... I came back home ... you know ... because it's really hard to make it and I know that my family's alway there ... I mean ... I've got a big family ... (laughter) M: What I'm hearing from things various ones of you are saying is that ... the respect and family and hard work and education are values that are running through for most all of you ... is that ... ?Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 26 ..: Yeah ... education is ........... God first and then the education ................ that's what we think. ..: Uh-huh. M: Religion ... played a very big role in your life? ..: Religion. M: And in your culture could we say? ..: ......... respect ... you know ... the respect that ............ when I was growing up ... you know. I still have this ... this tradition that I go and kiss the hands of the old ladies ... I ........ my daddy ... my momma ... everytime I see them ... you know ... I live about 3 or 4 blocks from them where I live ... everytime I go out there I kiss their hands. ..: He goes about 3 or 4 times a day. ..: And some ladies that are ... those old ladies ... you know ... in their 70s and 60s ... I go and kiss their hands .......... G: It's a form of respect. ..: Yeah. ..: I know my ....... does that ... my brothers ... my brothers are ready to go off ...... my younger brother wants to go to UT ... (laughter) ... you know ... and I'm just ... M: Sign of the times. ..: English ............. END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 27 SIDE 2. M: This is side 2 of the Abernathy Community Meeting, October 16th, 1994, this is the session that Phyllis McKenzie and Lorenzo Galvan Jr are facilitating. G: What were we talking about? M: You remember what you were talking about, Mr. de Nueva? ..: A little respect and .... ..: .......... ..: What? ..: Religion being a strong force in the tradition of the ....... ..: And religion .......... tradition that you know who kiss the hands of the ladies there at the church ... and everybody ... you know ... the old ladies I have that respect ... and religion plays a very important part in our lives ... you know ... because even though we weren't that religious but we still ... we still you know ....... (Spanish) ........ Guadalupe is the one ... to me ... it's a tradition that ... ..: Represents the poor. ..: ... well ...... M: In the exhibit itself ... would the Virgin of Guadalupe be appropriate? ..: I think so. ..: Yes.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 28 ..: I think .... ..: It would be ....... ..: What I was thinking is ........... ..: There's a bank in Lubbock ... I don't know the name ... but they have ... when you go in ... as you go in to the main lobby ... there's a big replica of the ................... ... but when you go into a place where there's a picture of the Virgin of Guadalupe ... you feel like you're home. G: Uh-huh. ..: I do. ..: It used to be Lubbock National Bank right there downtown. ..: ........... M: But that really represents your heritage and your culture to you ... alright. One thing that's very different for us talking to all of you ... you're the first group we've talked to in a Community Meeting who really come from farm-working background. How could we represent that part of your heritage in an exhibit? What would be appropriate things? G: For the working .... M: For the farm workers ... the fact that that's been a big part of Tejanos. G: We had ... we had an idea that we tossed around in that area where we're going to put the working part ... of having Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 29 like maybe ... in the backgroud maybe a mural depicting a field ... ..: Uh-huh. G: ... and then maybe the back of a pickup truck or something ... you know ... that kind of sticks out like from the wall but like its ... you're looking at it from the back of the pickup ... you know ... and then having pictures or maybe manikins or something ... M: Or maybe real people ... G: People. M: ... who would simply tell the kind of stories people would share ... G: See we have docents that go around ... M: ... at night in the labor camps ... or songs ... if you could tell us anything like this from your own childhood or your memories. ..: I think that because like he said ... you know ... especially those replicas that they ........... pickup ... and then show some ...... (Spanish) ........... G: Yeah. ..: Si. And then have somebody there to explain ... live ... explain the pictures of ......... G: Well ... one of our ideas that we're trying to do is to use tapes where you go up there and you've got the picture ... Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 30 you see what's there ... and let's say ... I want to see what that lady ... what she's doing ... and you push this button ... ..: Oh, yeah. G: ... it's labeled and then you hear her voice ... you know ... like what is she doing ... I'm preparing the lunch for the workers ... ............ or do you want to hear the kids ... you know ... like you were saying you used to be in the truck watching ... when you were too young ... ..: Okay ... what brings to mind ... to me ... during the harvest ... the working season ... is the cotton fields ... like they appear in that picture ... which you see a lot of now ... the cotton ready to be harvested ... and a trailer ... a big old trailer full of cotton and a sack ... ..: Somebody with a sack trying to weigh ....... ..; Our parents ... that's ... that's how they make their living ... cotton ... picking cotton. And ... you know ... these long ... G: Sacks? ..: ... ....... you probably don't know what I'm talking about ... I mean ... G: Sacks? Oh, I know what you're talking about. (mixed conversation and laughter) ..: Yeah.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 31 ..: Where the scales ....... ..: You know you could have something like that if you wanted to .......... ..: Sure. ..: ....... making a cotton sack full ... hung on the scale ... with a ............ ..: Yeah. ..: The thing about .... G: When we took our break I was in there ...... water ...... ..: That was the way our parents made their living ... hoeing and ....... G: There was a lady talking about she remembered the big trucks ... you know ... those big trucks with the canvas cover ... ..: Yeah. G: ... it was full of people. (mixed conversation) G: That was what she was talking about. (mixed conversation) ..: Lubbock used to be full of those things during the harvest season ... I mean ... downtown ... the downtown area ... Broadway ... ..: Oh ... you couldn't walk in that ...... in the '40s and '50s ... you couldn't walk ... ..: Even the small towns.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 32 ..: ... you couldn't walk in there. ..: I was raised in Rawls and Rawls had 2 theaters ... ..: Yeah. ..: ... for a small town ... I mean ... that was a lot. And you had to stand in line to get into the theaters. There was so much people from out of town. ..: ...... harvest ... yeah. ..: ............ group of the Conjuntos come in .......... M: Tell us about the ...... (laughter) ... tell us what you did for entertainment. G: That's another thing we're going to touch on is ... music. And the idea was brought up when we went to ... when we had our meeting in Edinburg. One of the gentlemen in my group said that would be something for the younger generation ... like have some ... the inside of a truck or car ... you know ... and then have a tape of music from the different time periods. And ... you know ... you can ... M: Or a radio station ... you could turn it on in the cabin ........ G: Yeah. Whatever time period you were from. M: ... here ... Spanish language radio. G: Pick up the music and you get the music from that era. M: But we need the memories ... we need from you all what ... what things you remember.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 33 ..: The way I see it ... you know ... I mean ... it started out with migrants ... G: Uh-huh. ..: ... you know ... migrating year after year ... G: Right. ..: ... but you get to West Texas and this is where they started stopping off ... M: Settling. ..: ... from here they became farmers ... farm-hands .... you know ... and then this is where their education ...... picked up. G: Uh-huh. ..: That's the way I see it ... in my view ... you know. Because migrating stopped a few years back ... oh, yeah ... you still see every now and then ... not that many. You know it just stops and the farmers pick up. M: Stops when? What time period would you say the change took place? ..: Oh, I'd say ... G: '70s maybe? ..: ... about the '70s ... it finally started slowing down. M: Mr. Cortez. LC: I was going to say regarding ... you asked a question about living conditions and the way we were treated and our parents Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 34 were treated back then ... and I think that our parents saw how they were treated and how it was not right and unjust and all this and therefore that made our parents instill in us more ... more values in the way of being ... of acting more respect for fellow man and not be discriminating ........... M: Did you try to pass those same values on to your own children? Do you see .... LC: I think so ... yeah. M: ... connecting link between generations? LC: I can remember going into the Hale County Seat ... ........... ... and seeing fountains ... drinking fountains that said ... you know ... Whites only ... and then Colored ... and going into ... trying to get a haircut in a barbershop and being turned down because of being Mexican-American. M: Should we put something in the exhibit like that? Should we put a "No Mexicans Allowed" or something that would show overt discrimination ... would that be appropriate? ..: Well, I think one of the questions was something like that ... wasn't it? ..: Uh-huh. ..: And I would feel like ... yeah, because it happened and .... G: See, there was a lady in El Paso that was in my group ... she's got a PhD in ... she's got a PhD in history ... and Hispanic Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 35 ... no, Mexican culture and she was ... when that topic was brought up because there was another gentleman with me that was from ... I think he was originally from the Valley ... but he was raised in El Paso ... he was telling us that his grandparents ... his grandparents used to tell him about all the ... the way the Texas Rangers used to treat the Americanos ... you know ... especially along the borders. And when that came up ... you know ... this lady was ... phew ... she just blew her stack ... she said you don't want to address that because that's ... you know ... that's what starts problems. I said ... well, that's history though. ..: Yeah ... ..: Part of history. ..: How do you feel? ..: I feel like it might ... you know ... G: Offend people you think? ..: ... well, it didn't offend me ... you know ... then at the time because that's what I was used to. G: Well ... see, that's what we were talking about ... you know ... because it's history ... but then again it's going to bring back bad memories ... ..: Right. G: ... and you know ... ..: That's how I feel ... you know ... I think that probably Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 36 we need to ... G: Bring back ....... ..: ... keep it alive ... you know ... for that reason. ..: That's something that needs to be ........ G: Forgotten? M: I'd actually like to hear .... ..: We'll never forget it. M: ... everyone how you would answer this question ... because this is an important thing that we've talked a lot among ourselves about and haven't reached agreement ... should things like this .... ..: Also ...... it might again ... M: ... that might be inflamatory ... but ... ..: ... be worst in places than in other places. M: ... but that did take place. ..: It should be ........ ..: Very definitely ...... ..: I was in fifth grade ... it happened to us. M: ........... G: Uh-huh. ..: Of course, we'd drink with White ... we were Mexican-Americans ... you know ... and the Colored would dring ........ ... but I think ... you know ... I'll never forget it.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 37 G: Yeah. ..: I don't want to have my kids and my grandchildren ... G: Going through this. ..: ... keep it up ... you know ... I mean ... we want to be one with all races. M: Do you feel they should know this existed though? ..: But I think if ... ..: ....... they should know ... yeah. ..: ... it's done in a positive ... I mean ... .......... we're Mexicans ... you know ... and then see where some of these offices are being taken ... you know ... high offices were ... G: By Hispanics leaders you mean? ..: ... by Hispanic leaders ... yeah ... I think that would ... you know ... show something ... G: Uh-huh. ..: ... as a positive. It wouldn't show the negative part so much ... but it would show the positive. M: It would show the change. Have all the problems been solved though ... right ... do some still remain? Should the exhibit acknowledge that? What still remains? ..: I don't know ... because there's still some prejudices ..... of course in a little town. ..: There will always be. ..: There will always be ...........Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 38 ..: ............ Texas Rangers or the Border Patrol? G: No ... Texas Rangers. M: We can talk about the Border Patrol too. If you feel that's appropriate. ..: That's my experiences .... with the Border Patrol. G: Yeah. Well, this was in the past ... you know ... and they ... this lady was very adamant about it ... she said ... No, you don't want to address that because ... this and that. She had her reasons ... you know ... but there again ... on the other side of the coin this other person was saying ... Yeah, but it happened. People suffered because of this ... you know ... and that's why we've come where we are now ... because we overcame that ... but I feel it should be addressed. I said ... Well, this is what we're here for you know ... so we had everybody give us an opinion on that. What you were saying about being combined with the Whites ... if you weren't Black you were considered part of the White ... right? ... because there was no problems for Mexicans ... right? ..: ........... G: Brings us an interesting story ... when I was bringing up my kids ... when they were little ... I guess my son was about her age ... and my two oldest daughters were about their age ... and we were sitting around ... having dinner and my oldest daughter started making fun of my little boy ... David's Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 39 got a girl friend. I said ... You got a girl friend, Boy? He says ... Yeah. He's kind of bashful and I said ... Well, what's her name? He says ... Her name's Pearl. And where we lived is predominately Black neighborhood ... right? So I said ... Pearl? What kind of name is that? I said ... Is she Black or what? No, she's White like me. (laughter) I wanted to laugh you know ... I said ... Boy, I've got to talk to you ... there's 3 different kinds here. (laughter) But it's just that innocent humor ... you know ... they don't see the difference. And ... ..: ...... beautiful. G: That's what me ... I said ... I love this. Because they don't see no difference in color. (mixed conversation) ..: That's the way the Lord wants you to be. M: It's real important for just one to talk at a time or we'll get a tape that will be garbled. So ... I'll try to get everyone a turn. Did we just called ... 5 ... G: Yeah ... 5 minutes. Sally: 5 minutes ...... attack you. M: Gosh. ..: Do you know what ... I don't think anybody ever held any grudges. I know I remember my dad telling my me how he and ....... Joe got beat up by White people because they were Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 40 Mexicans. But they don't hold grudges or anything like that. And then ... you know ... I remember going out ... like to Lubbock and stuff like that ... and these little White girls picking on me and throwing my ........ saying ... You're ugle and you're Mexican ... and ........ G: See ... and she's 21. ..: I know it still exists. M: Right. ..: It still exists but I don't hold any grudges. And I think that Mexicans have always been real welcoming to other races. Because in my family we have Black people ... we have White people ... Mexican ... it's no big deal. ..: I know when I used to go to school ... because I didn't talk English ... and every time that teacher would hear me talk Spanish ... she got me up and put me in the corner because I couldn't talk English. (laughter) G: ...... that's your job ... teach me, lady. ..: Well, see in the first grade ... when I started school ... in the first grade ... they would put all the Mexican kids in the same room ... the Mexican-American kids would be in one room ... separate from the ... all the other first graders. ..: Yeah. ..: But in a way I guess that was good ... because ... you know ... our parents not having an education and all ... it Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 41 wasn't then like it is today ... where little kids ... G: Are mixed with other races? ..: ... except ... no ... they pick up English from the TV ... G: Oh, yeah. ..: ... and they grow up ... by the time the get to be in the first grade ... well ... they can communicate. ..: Yeah. ..: Well, it was difference with us ... see ... we spoke Spanish all the time ... so ... in a way it was good ... but they would do that ... separate all the Mexican-American kids ... ..: Just like ...... ..: ... by the second grade we would be integrated with the rest. M: .......... G: When I was coming up in school ... which was in the '50s ... it was all Mexicans. I didn't have a ... another ethnic group in my class ... I think ... til I was in the 7th grade. ..: Yeah. ..: Well, see, for us it was different becuase like John was saying ... all of us migrated ... our parents migrated and there were only a few Mexican-American families in a White ... ..: Environment. ..: Yeah.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 42 ..: ... environment ... so it was really ........ M: Did you feel singled out then because of it? ..: See when I was in school ... I started school ... I was the oldest ... my parents didn't know English ... okay ... they couldn't help me with my homework. I mean I had to struggle and struggle and do it on my own. Okay ... my sisters came along ... my brother ... we started talking English among ourselves ... that what we studied in school ... and the thing about it was ... our parents got mad at us. M: Really? ..: Can't you speak Spanish? .......... G; Uh-huh. ..: You know. You speak your own language. I don't want you to speak in English in this house. Well, gradually it started turning around ... you know ... and they started learning the English ... I mean ... they know enough to communicate ... they don't know it ... real good ... but it's enough to communicate. G: They picked it up from you. ..: Yes. They picked it up from us. G: From you and the kids ... yeah. ..: And then ... now they talk to the kids in English ... because the kids can't speak Spanish. M: Yeah. G: That's the thing ... that's what we were talking about Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 43 earlier. ..: And they can't speak the Spanish ... they understand it ... my kids understand all of it ... they just can't speak it. G: Uh-huh. ..: ................ ..: It is. G: Yes, it is. ..: I'm having to struggle to learn how to speak Spanish ... you know ... I took Spanish in junior high ... when I was in school down here ... and ... you know ... what they tried to teach you was correct ... G: Right ... Castilian Spanish. ..: ... and ...... M: The kind I tried to learn ... it's not as functional as .... ..: I got in trouble ... you know ... at school 'cause she asked ... Well, how do you say "to get?" And I said ... ........... And she said ... That's not a word. And I said ... Yes, it is, my grandma uses it all the time. G: And if she uses it ... it's a word. (laughter) ..: So I got in trouble ... you know ... but that's the Spanish that I had heard ... you know ... it's not like the what ... you know ... and I thought ... Well, she's White anyway. So ...Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 44 G: What is she? (laughter) M: Let me say one thing real quick ... there's a lot of questions we're supposed to ask and we haven't ... one really important one ... I hope we can all say a few words before Sally does indeed jerk me away with a cane ... (laughter) ... what should the message of the exhibit be? What should a visitor go away from the exhibit feeling or thinking as a result of having see it? That's the most important thing you can tell us. And would each of you try to say something to that. ..: I thought ... like ... I can tell you everything our family is all about. Number one is God and religion, number two is family, three is hard work, number four definitely music in my family. M: Very well put! G: You know ... out of those four ... three are them are section that we wanted ... Sally: And the music is ....... G: ... and the music is part of it. ..: Part of it. G: And in every part of it it's involved. M: Yeah. G: There's music involved with religion ... there's music ... the family music ... what you remember ... you know ... at home ... and then at work ... you know everybody's got radios Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 45 ....... M: Mr. Cortez, what would you say is the important thing that the exhibit should say? LC: I would say ... I agree with Regina ... it has been a struggle ... I would say that the exhibit needs to show that ... in this part of Texas ... for the Mexican-American in this part of Texas ... has been a struggle ... but it has been overcome. A struggle has been overcome and it's paid off and we're proud ... we're a proud people ... M: Alright. LC: ... because these four things ... M: Those four. LC: ... has kept us together and put us where we are now. M: Alright. Mr. de Nueva? I'm sorry ... we'll all have a turn. ..: What I remember as a little girl was that my mother ... we lived on a farm and we couldn't make it to church ... you know ... as often as we were supposed to ... but she would teach us prayers at night ... ........... and then family because we were all together and we had to work ... ........ the farm is hard work ... all of it ... we had to work to eat ... and as togetherness ... you know ... after everybody left home ... you know ... we try to get together as often as we could ... as often as possible ... and after she passed away ... well, Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 46 it was still togetherness ... teaching us ... my dad had the same ... he said ... You need to learn how to work ... don't waste your time ... do the best that you can ... and when you work no matter what kind of work it is ... because ... he said ... I'm going to die and I don't have a million dollars to leave you. So all I'm going to leave you is the knowledge of ... you know ... to know how to work. So that was a very strong point with him. And he said I don't care what kind of work you do ... do the best you can. You know ... don't waste your time. Of course that was ........ how to work hard. M: Well said ... thank you ... than you. Mr. de Neuva? JN: ...... this all this thing has been happening ... .......... ... you know ... it's in the past now ... my only concern is that to just love one another. M: Thank you. Mr. Flores? JF: I agree pretty much ... you know ... like Regina was saying ... you know ... God, family values, and what was the other one? ... G: Work. JF: ... work ... work together. In my opinion education is where it's getting us now. M: That that is important as well. JF: Uh-huh. M: And you three young ladies ... what would you like to see Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 47 our exhibit say or have in it? Would you tell us your ages as you each talk? Because we haven't interviewed young people before and yet people your age will be coming to see the exhibit ... so we really do appreciate what you have to say. Christina, how old are you? CC: Ten. M: Ten. What would you like to see in an exhibit about Hispanics ... about Mexican-Americans? It's hard to think I know. Michelle, do you have an idea? Julia? ..: .............. M: If you think of ideas you drop us a note because we sure want to hear from you all. Is there anything that anyone here has badly wanted to say and simply hasn't gotten a chance because the conversation moved off of it? ..: Could I ask you something about the work exhibit? M: Uh-huh. ..: Are you all going to put kids in there? See ... because I grew up ... even when I wasn't working ... I grew up on the field ... I grew up playing with the dirt and stuff like that ... G: Sure ... stayed in the shade. (laughter) ..: My brother was in a little carrier and I say ... I stood there and I took care of my brother when I was ... you know ... before I started ...Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 48 G: That's been addressed ... yeah. M: That's a good thought too. Because people have told us before about taking small children to work with them. ..: My mom would make us a little shade and we'd just ... G: Spend the day ... yeah. ..: I saw ............. (laughter) M: Great idea. Sorry, I didn't ... didn't catch ... ..: I saw her put dirt on his head when he was little. (laughter) G: She was ..... ..: And ... you know ... like my sisters ... you know ... my little sister, Brenda ... you know ... when I started working she'd be walking right behind me with the ........... ... it was too big for her to carry ... M: She was how old? ..: ... walking out there with us ... you know ... M: When she was how old? ..: Uh ... she must have been ... I'd say she was at least like 5 maybe ... we were all like that ... we'd follow my parents with the ............. ... you know ... and if we weren't playing ... you know ... (laughter) G: Do you ... as a young lady ... do you ..... in your community ... do you have or do kids nowadays ... do they have role models ... Hispanic role models that they look up to? They had ... Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 49 I posed this question to some kids in El Paso ... high school kids ... and I was pretty much taken for a loop when ... because I was expecting them to give me like Madonna or something ... you know ... some modern person ... and you know ... we had two young ladies ... from Mexico but they had been in the United States ... and both of them ... they said their role model was their mothers. Okay. She had instilled in them that nothing was impossible ... there's nothing so difficult if you put your mind to it you could do ... you know. And when she said ... my mom ... ..: I think it's my ......... ... I say ......... ... but she's my grandma ... but because she had to work hard ... she raised a lot of kids and I know they had it hard and everything ... and especially now she's the backbone of our family. ........... gone you know ... he left ... you know ... but she's the backbone of that family ... and she's the one that holds us together. G: And you know .... M: Sally's bringing the whole crowd out here to force us to stop. (laughter) I'm really sorry we didn't get to more ... but I want to thank you all. This has been extremely informative. G: If you think of something that you want to ... ..: How can you possibly get all that ...? M: We can't ... now way.Tejano Community Meetings - Abernathy, Texas Phyllis McKenzie & L Galvan (Tape 1 of 1) 50 ..: .................... G: It's impossible ... you know ... once we get back to San Antonio what we'll do ... we'll transcribe those and put them on paper and .... END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTESTHE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES Tejano Community Meetings INTERVIEW WITH: Pete Perez-Montalvo, Joe Carrillo, Mrs. ...... Bernal, Lucy Garcia, Father .... Rameriz DATE: 16 October 1994 PLACE: Lubbock, Texas INTERVIEWER: Phyllis McKenzie M: ..... Phyllis McKenzie of the Institute of Texan Cultures, today is October 16, 1994, we're at St. Joseph's Church in Lubbock, Texas, for a Community Meeting about the Tejano exhibit. You'll now here the voice of the people who will be interviewed on this tape. P: I'm Pete Perez-Montalvo from Lubbock. I'm involved in the Texas State Museum with the Spanish ... Hispanic ... Mexican ... Spanish-Mexican Compound ... in a permanent Hispanic Gallery. C: I'm Joe Carrillo. I'm from St. Joseph's Parish here in Lubbock. ..: My name is ........... Bernal ..... St. Joseph's Parish also ............ Altar Society ........ G: I'm Lucy C Garcia. And I belong to St. Jospeh's Church since 1926. R: And I'm Father Rameriz, pastor of St. Joseph's. M: Mr. Carrillo, a minute ago before we started the tape, you were talking to us about the different terms and names that have been used for your culture ... for your group ... would you repeat something of what you were saying just a minute ago. C: ..... What I was saying that I think there's a confusion ..... I guess in Texa ... you know we've been considered different type of names ... you know. First we were ... what? ... Mexicans ... and then Latins ... then Latin-Americans ... then Chicanos ... and now we're ... what else was it? ... Hispanics ... and now we're Tejanos. You know we get all this type of names. And like I said ... if ... I think this is a confused type of ... I guess ... ........ or .......... ... since we're talking about culture. Now you have in other countries ... like here we are considered to be foreigners if we know 2 languages ... or 3. Any other part of the world they're considered to be somebody that really ... the educational ......... ... part of ... you know ... of the culture. But here they regard us as you know ... foreigners ... because you know languages ... you know ... you don't speak 2 languages here in this country ... you speak American. Well, what is American you know? Somebody mentioned ... Let's all go back to what is American. You know ... Indian ... you know ... just because it's English ... it could have been German. M: What word would each of you use to describe your ethnic or cultural heritage? Mr. Carrillo mentioned several ... which one would one would you each use if I asked you what's the right one for you personally? P: Mexican-American. M: Mexican-American. C: I would prefer Mexican-American ... you know ... from Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 3 Mexican parents. Mine was from Mexico and moved to New Mexico ... so I'd really be Mexican. M: Mrs. Bernal? B: The same ...... M: Mexican-American. G: Mexican-American. M: Alright. R: I think that with all the changes that have come around ... like among the Colored people ... before they used to hate to be called Blacks ... and now they say Black is Beautiful and they're proud of being Black. And I think we have also identified ourselves with that and we don't mind being called Mexicans ... we're kind of proud to be called that. Or to say that we are. But I think the younger generation prefers to be called Mexican-Americans. P: It bothers me when I hear the menu for the school children on television in the mornings and they say ... We're going to have enchilladas, beans and Spanish rice ... it is not Spanish rice ... it is Mexican rice ... paella is Spanish rice. M: Uh-huh. We were talking a little bit ... a minute ago I was saying that things are different in the Pan Handle ... than in South Texas ... or in San Antonio where we all are from ... what differences do you all notice ... do you feel is differnt here from Tejano culture in other parts of the state? Or do Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 4 you feel that there are differences? P: When I travel to other parts of the state the Hispanics ... the Mexican-Americans ........ are more mono-lingual ... more apt to watch English television or listen to English radio than the Mexican-Americans in this region. Here there is a closer affinity to the old culture than there is even in San Antonio ... Austin ... Houston. M: Why is that? P: I think it might be a reaction to some of the injustices and cultural isolation that was experienced by the Hispanic community when it first settled in this area. Where in those other parts of the state the Mexican-American has become acculturarized and become a part of the greater-American scene. You know ... a lot earlier time than what this happened in Lubbock. M: Uh-huh. Would anyone else like to comment on that? C: I think like you were saying ... I think ........ you had to learn Spanish ... instead of you know vice a versa ... ............ you know ... but most .......... know Spanish ... whether they were Germans ... Jews ... or whatever ... Blacks you know ... well, they know the Spanish here ... they look at you as ... the difference between the ......... ... they look at you as a foreigner if you know 2 languages ... and I think Lubbock's one of the biggest ... to me ... and I've been Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 5 here all my life ... one of the biggest bigotry and racist town in the state. And you know ..... I think it should be ..... M: That's how you feel? C: .......... That's how I feel. And yes ... that's how it is. M: Well ... that's ... C: They just hide it. M: Well ... we're here to look ... C: ......... it wasn't in the open way back here at ... I've been here all my life and it wasn't in the open then but now they've closed it down ... it's still there. M: Uh-huh. C: Still there. It's just having trouble with jobs ... good jobs ... most of the kids are educated and leave town because of the ... well ... you can't get a half a decent job ... you do the ... any little old thing that you do wrong they're going to fire you ... and this is part of ........ culture here ........ Very well qualified people here ........ culture ... but because of this ... they just retire. M: Mr. Perez-Montalvo was mentioning there's more isolation here and a different history ... it wasn't settled as early in time as South Texas ... I'd be interested in ... in the personal background for each of you ... when did your family first come to this area? how many generations ago? have you Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 6 each lived here all your life? or not? So Mrs. Garcia, would you tell me first? G: I came in Lubbock since 1920. M: 1920. G: With my mother and my dad. I ... M: Where did they come from? G: They came from ... we came from Roswell, New Mexico. M: And why did your family come? G: Why? M: Uh-huh. G: I don't know ... I was ... I was a small child then ... I don't know why they moved to Texas. M: Was it for work? G: Yeah ... they came out here to pull bolls ... or cotton ... whatever. And it was 3 families. It was my grandmother ... my mother's mother ... and my uncle ............... M: Uh-huh. G: They came in 1919. And then we came in 1920. They were here before we did so they tried to bring us over. M: Uh-huh. G: So that's the reason we came over. M: So family connection was here. G: Yeah. Three families was here ... the Carmonas ... ....... and Castillanos. ........Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 7 M: Mrs. Bernal? B: We came in the early '50s over here because my mom was sick with asthma and we took her ... the doctors told her that we needed a better climate for her ... this was ... M: Where did you come from? B: Houston, Texas. And I never knew any discrimination until I came here. M: Is that right? What was different here than in Houston? B: Yes. Over here ... M: What specifically did you encounter here? B: Well ... we went into a restuarant after school to drink Cokes and they wouldn't serve us. And I had never experienced that before ... it was a shock to me. M: Father Rameriz? R: We came here ... we began coming to this area in 1937 and that's when ... my dad had died and my mother and brothers and sisters used to migrate from the Central part of Texas and we came to this area and then we used to come to the park there ... ......... Park that's there now ... and there used to be a barn there ... where all the migrants used to gather. And then the Anglo would come to hire the people and take them to their own farms to pick cotton. So we landed in Abernathy. And we began to come there with the Harrisons up until the '50s Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 8 when I left for the Seminary. And we came there every year to pick cotton. When the harvest was done we went back home and we missed from September to December going to school. Because of the migration and having to work. So every year that we went back to school we started in January which used to put us back every year. And then in 1950 in this area this was the only church ... besides St. Elizabeth ... but this was THE Mexican church and there was no other churches around in the area ... so we used to come to mass here to St. Jose every Sunday and then the Palentine Fathers came here in 1950 and then I joined them in '54 and went to study in Ireland for 13 years and then I was sent home to be ordained here in this church. I have served in Texas since 1967 and I am back in San Jose as pastor for 10 years. Now, in the meantime we also underwent a lot of discrimination. Since we were migrants. M: Uh-huh. R: And I remember distinctly one restuarant that was down on Broadway ... and there was a sign on it that said ... No Mexicans or Dogs Allowed. M: Is that right? (mixed conversation) R: That really hurt ... G: Yeah. R: ... really hurt.Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 9 M: Can understand that. R: It wasn't until lately that that restuarant was closed. Just lately. M: The sign had come down hadn't it? R: It finally closed ... but the man moved to 4th Street ... he's there across from Gilbert's ... around there. And so this is some of the experience that we went through. We were only allowed to walk as far as Texas Avenue and from there back that way is where all the Mexicans used to buy their food ... buy their clothes ... but we couldn't go beyond Texas. M: What happened if you ...? R: Because that was for the Anglos and from there ... from Texas down that was ... east ... was for the Mexican people. M: If you did venture beyond Texas Avenue what happened? R: Well, it was ... they didn't throw you out ... but they let you know you weren't welcome there. And this was the kind of feeling that was there. Now ... we are proud and being a priest now ... a few years ago I had an Anglo priest here with me ... and we've always had 3 masses on Sunday ... one in English and 2 in Spanish and Saturday night in Spanish ... so he ... we wanted to see if the people wanted to have 2 English masses and 2 Spanish. And so we took a survey for 2 weekends and we were really surprised that the Mexican people said no ... we want our Spanish masses as they are and we only want one Anglo Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 10 mass and that's it. And the only reason why we come to the Anglo mass it's for convenience's sake and no other reason. And it was because it wasn't too late or too early. So that's going back to what you said I think. That we're proud of our culture ... even though we live in an enviornment of ... where English is spoken and even our youth speak more English now than Spanish yet the culture and our costumbres and whatever ... we still have them and I think we're still very proud of them. M: I wanted to talk a lot more to all of you about the conditions you remember from the past. I want to make sure our other 2 gentlemen have a chance to tell us how their family came to be in this area. So let's talk about that and then we'll move to other ... Mr. Perez-Montalvo? P: My family came from Monterrey, Mexico, in February of 1964. We lived in Eagle Pass for a few months where I attended school in the 4th grade. Just before the end of the school we became migrant workers. And we went to work in the fields in Colorado and we stayed there for most of the summer. Sometime in early August of '54 we came back to Lubbock. We found out we were not cut out to be farmers. My father was a construction foreman in Mexico and Lubbock was experiencing a building boom at that time. So we stayed in Lubbock where we did very well in construction and in educating us. I, like Father Rameriz, I Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 11 also experienced some discrimination early on. We lived about 2 blocks from here and a church ... man came up and asked if I would take part in the Christmas parade ... downtown Lubbock ... and I said ... my mother said yes ... she consented. And they had myself, a Black child and a Vietnamese lady from the University ... I remember her because of her costume ... which I later became quite familiar with when I was in Vietnam. We sat on the flatbed truck looking at a world and the bible open in front of it and ... on a very cold day we paraded through downtown Lubbock. At the end ... this was an Anglo church ... I believe it's the First Christian Church ... it's on ... about 2 blocks east of University Avenue on Broadway ... it's the very first church ... big church that was there. They took us to a restuarant on Broad ... on Main and Avenue X to treat us and they took us through the front door ... it was an Anglo minister and 3 minority children ... and they wouldn't serve us. And so they took us around the back of the restuarant and we sat outside ... on a very cold December day ... on produce crates and there they brought us our food. And that's where we ate. M: How did an incident like that make you feel? P: If ... it's galvanized ... it's in my mind ... no matter what else is said or done ... no matter who my friends are ... I don't mistrust Anglos ... but I know that this is a part of Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 12 our past and I deal with it. It doesn't bother me. I'm very proud that I experienced it because now I can deal on a different level with ..... people. I benefited from it personally. M: Really? You have not felt embittered from it? P: Both of my ex-wives are Anglos and my children are half and half and I deal very well in both cultures. And also with the Black community so it expanded my knowledge of the world. M: That says a lot for your own character too I think. Mr. Carrillo, will you tell us how your family came to be here. C: Well, I guess just like the rest of them I just migrated here because of the work. I did work in the fields, cotton fields ... I think dad was mostly ... well, ..... generally took people to the fields ... kind of foreman type of ... truckero they used to call them ... they ... they ........ mesquites ... they used to hire people to dig them out ... .......... I think they used to call it at the time ... you've heard it? ........... used to do a lot of his work here ... that's when they took all those mesquites out of the fields ....... cotton fields out of them ... I, in fact, I remember Reese up here ... before they ...... airport base ... they did that job in that area ... and I just like the rest of them ... they came in and say ... you know ... talk to the railroaders here ... some of them came from the ranches you know ... cattle ... cowboys Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 13 and what have you ... and then they came in to the railroad ... ....... cotton fields ....... ... mostly migration ... for work. M: Uh-huh. It sounds to me like most of you have had some background on the migrant trail and I'd be very interested in some details of that life ... what did you eat ... how many hours a day did you work ... how did you feel about the people that you were working for ... were they treating you fairly ... or unfairly ... what did you do in the evenings ... what did yo do for entertainment ... did you have enough money to buy necessities ... any and all of these topics ... if you could fill in some details ... you're the first groups of people we've talked to in the whole state who've really had an agricultural background and in order to represent this in the exhibit we sure could use help from just what details do you all remember as being significant. P: ....... role in 1954 we worked la ........... ... that's cleaning out the cotton and getting the weeds out. M: Uh-huh. P: And we worked for 40 cents an hour. I was a big 10 year old. At that time it was 40 cents an hour ... 10 hours a day ... half an hour off for lunch. There was water at the end of the row ... by the truck ... there were no toilets of course ... we brought our lunches from home. In the morning ... early Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 14 on a truckero would come by and pick us up ... and sometimes it would still be dark ... we'd go and drive ... they brought us out to the fields somewhere ... quite a ways from the city sometimes. At the end of the day there was not a whole lot of energy left for anything even though you were a youngster you were beat by the sun ... you were beat by the sun. And on week-ends we were off Saturday and Sunday and we would go to the movies downtown ... those that allowed Hispanics to go in. And again they were all on the ... to east of Texas Avenue. And like Father Rameriz said, the streets were wall to wall with farm workers who came in on Saturday to buy their supplies and clothing and anything else that they needed. And ultimately it was that power of the money that opened up the rest of the businesses as far as allowing Hispanics to come in. M: Who else? R: Basically that's exactly what we did. Only we weren't with a truckero, we were privately working for one particular person. But we used to come to Lubbock every ... every week-end. And buy the groceries for the whole week. And maybe take in a movie if we could stand in line for hours before we could get in. And then we used to come to confession and go home and then Sunday come back and go to mass and then go back home. And as Pete says after a long day's work there wasn't much that we could do except rest and prepare for the following day.Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 15 M: What were the living conditions like? What type of dwellings? (laughter and mixed conversation) R: The living conditions ... it depended ... I guess we were very lucky ... because we were hired by this particular family and there was no other family there but just us. So we had a pretty good house and the conditions were good. Of course the toilet was outside and but otherwise it was okay. But other people who worked for truckeroes really had it bad. I mean ... their conditions ... M: Bad in what way? What did they have? R: ... were really bad. Because .... M: Tell me what they were like. R: Maybe Pete might be able to enlarge on that. P: Well, the houses that we lived in ... the very first house that we lived in was out here 104 North Avenue M and it had holes in the walls ... holes in the floor ... if it rained it leaked ... broken windows. It was the only place where we could afford at the time ... M: You were renting it? P: Of course, yes. We moved away from there ... ..: Joe, tell ........ P: ... and we rented another house in another part of town ... not very far from there.Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 16 ..: He said .......... P: Again the toilet was outside. There was water in the kitchen ... very ... very ... rudimentary kitchen ... nothing like what we know now you know ... the sink was not ... there was no sink. It was a very primitive living. Winter-time ... around here it's a lot colder than it is in South Texas. My dad would make sure that ... in bed he would come over and cover us up at night ... make sure that we didn't freeze during the night ... because it was possible I suppose under the conditions that we were living we could freeze. M: Did entire families work the fields? Did children and women? P: By that time my dad was working in construction. I had a sister who was 15 and my parents sent me along with her to work in the fields ... kind of keep an eye on her ... I guess I was her chaperone ... it was quite common for then to have a ... for a younger brother or an older brother to be assigned ......... ... so that's what my duties were and of course I worked alongside too .... ... but yes, there were whole families that would come out there and work. C: I think it was some of the clan-type of deal though ... grandpa ... grandma ... you know ... and the uncles and aunts and the whole ... you know ... they ...... it was just a clan-type of a ... families that keep together ... took a farm over ... Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 17 they would probably be together anyway ... ....... ... most of the ... back then ... I was talking to a gentleman ... and he said ... I liked it then. ... you know ... because of the closeness of the family. I said ... ........... you know ... poppa's not there ... both of them are working ... and grandpa's not there anymore ... you know ... family's elsewhere ... just ........ divided ... then it used to be a little clan-like deal ... grandpa was there ... the respect was there ... everybody was watching everybody ... and I think that was part of ........ M: You feel families were closer knit ... C: Were closer knit. M: ... in the generation ago than now? C: Than they are now ... sure. M: Do the rest of you feel that as well? G: Yeah. That's ...... M: What has caused the change? G: I don't know. Everybody takes their own home ... their own place you know ... and that's why they split out. Like me ... I'm just home ... me and my husband. Our kids own their own homes and out of the family. M: Some people have told us they think the family unit is stronger in Hispanic culture than in society as a whole ... than among Anglo people ... how do you feel about that? G: Well, our family was pretty close 'way back ... not anymore Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 18 ... we've ... M: Not so much anymore? S: How far away do your children live? G: They live here now! (laugher) M: Sally, would you identify yourself, please? S: I'm Sally Wiskeman and I've just had a similar conversation elsewhere and the gentleman said ... My children have moved away. Well, where are they? Well, in San Antonio, they're outside of 1604 ... which means you're about 10 miles away. My children ... I have one in Florida and one in Houston ... G: I've got my mother in California ... 5 brothers and sisters in California. So our family is just spread out. S: But your children ...... G: My sons and daughters are here. S: That's wonderful. G: But they sometimes don't even have a chance to call me and say ... Good morning, mother, how are you? S: (laughter) R: I think a lot has to do with our religion ... our Catholic upbringing. That keep us together even though we may be far away yet we keep within the family unity on the faith that we have ... brings us together once a year whereby we can visit with each other and share with each other the experience of the past year. And if we keep that tradition within the Mexican Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 19 people. And I know that we as a family ... there was 11 of us ... so we still ... even though we are scattered all over ... we still try to meet once a year to see each other and to see the children's children growing up. So I think that our faith has a lot to do with ......... ... the unity that keeps us there. M: That's one of the ties that ... R: And the traditions ... how tight-knit ... ......... ... even though we live in a different enviornment with ... ....... in a world that's so different from our ... from where we came from ... that even though we're still part of it and yet we're still a part of our own culture. M: Thinking in terms of the exhibit ... how could we represent ... for instance ... the importance of religion? ... for that's part of what's tied your culture together and represented continuity? What could we put in the exhibit to show that? What would be appropriate? P: Well, the family cohesiveness is related to the religion. The ... in this particular region ... the ... again the cultural isolation.... forced on the Mexican-Americans by the exterior community ... forced it to turn to itself. M: Uh-huh. P: Our families to turn into ourselves ... and whatever was ... whatever method is chosen ... whether it's a diorama or Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 20 an exhibit ... those 3 components represent people of this region's culture. M: Which 3 components? P: The church ... the family ... and the isolation forced upon us. Where we came here to work and develop the land and the industries and so forth ... but we were not allowed to become an integrated part of the whole culture ... so that brought us together and that is what has given us cohesiveness and the strength. And whatever the exhibit has has to incorporate those 3 factors ... to be representive of West Texas Mexicano. M: That's interesting that you say that ... people in other regions have mentioned at least 2 of those things too. They've said family and religion. That perhaps all across the state that is something important. Our question is how can we best represent it in the exhibit? Perhaps one suggestion that we hear is make sure have a Virgen de Guadalupe. Some people say a home altar ... if there's either an altar in their home today or they remember there was one in their parent's home. Has that been your experience? How many have an altar in their home today? One, 2, 3 ... did your ... did your parents have altars? C: I don't ......... M: What was on them? (laughter and conversation)Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 21 P: ............ ... la Virgen ... C: Guadalupe ... G: Have la Virgen de Guadalupe ... and Jesus ....... ... you know ... that statue ... out of ceramic or whatever it's made out. And I've had that stutue since ... oh ... about 30 ... 35 years. And you know how much I paid for that statue? M: Tell me. G: Fifty cents a week. M: Fifty cents a week. G: .............. and it's a man ......... END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES. SIDE 2. M: This is side 2 of the Lubbock Community Meeting for the Tejano exhibit, today is October 16, 1992 ... 1994. This is Phyllis McKenzie facilitating. Right before break we were talking a little bit about home interiors ... and home altars and what sort of things were on home altars and some people were talking to me about that there were a lot of pictures in their home ... of family members ... could we talk a little bit about that? Where ... one idea we have is to try to re-create the interior of a living room and if we did that ... we've got 2 problems ... one is of what date? ... of today? ... of 20 years ago? ... 40 years ago? Whatever date we pick to represent ... the next question is then ... Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 22 what goes in it? ... what is appropriate? So I'm kind of asking you for your ... your memories ... and what you think would best represent the culture? First of all ... should it have a home altar? Is that appropriate? P: Is representative of something prior to 1950 I would think ... yes. M: Uh-huh. P: Maybe even after 1950. A lot of times we still have. M: Thoughts from other people? C: ........ typical ........ Mexican home ... what you see is each other's pictures ... you know ... the grandkids and all this ... when you go in the house that's what you see ... it's a pride in family ... you know ... even though they're a 100 miles away ... 2,000 miles away ... you walk into a typical ........ home I guess you could ......... ... the pride of the Mexican home would be ........ you'd see pictures all over the place. I'm talking about a ... Christ would be one ... Virgen de Guadalupe ... ....... ... the pride of the education part of the ... graduation pictures you know ... and you'd have ... well, the .......... ... it goes back to ... kind of a story if you will ... you know ... that you go through those pictures ... what is this? ... and there's a story behind every picture on the wall. M: What about a picture of a person in the military service? Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 23 a son or a husband? Is that ... would that be something they would put on the wall and be proud of? P: Uh-huh. Very much. M: You all feel that. R: Yeah, I think ............. is very true. In my experience as a priest whatever home I go into there's always the history of the family there before you ... in photos. The whole family as it grew and as it was at one time and then how it began to branch off and the whole story is there in photos. How one particular daughter or son got married and the day they got married and so ... and then their children and so forth and so on. And so if the family is a family of 10 the whole sitting room is full of photographs. M: Lots of pictures. R: All the children and all their children's children and grandma and grandfather ... it's something beautiful. And that is part of the heritage that we belong to ... the culture and the beauty of being part of that Mexican family. And of course Our Lady of Guadalupe right in the middle of it. P: Something that I noticed a lot of after the ... President Kennedy was assassinated ... is that in many homes that had the altar ... along side somewhere there in a prominent position ... near the crucifix and the picture of the Virgen de Guadalupe ... you also find Kennedy ... a picture of John Kennedy. He Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 24 was very admired ... very much admired by the Mexican-Americans you know ... the camposinos ... the lower income people ... they admired him a lot. M: Do you still find pictures of him in homes today? Or was that more true 10 ... 20 years ago? R: Yeah ... still some ... I have seen him in several homes ... John Kennedy ........ And I think the very fact that he was a Catholic had a lot to do with it ... the first president ever in the America being Catholic and of a large family. I think we associated ourselves with him a lot and admired him for what he was. And when his life was taken it really hurt the Mexicanos a lot because we became so attached to him and depended on him for .......... ... that we could trust and then when he was gone then ... just broken hearts. M: What other heroes or people that you've admired? In either past or present. Do you think would be typical? R: I think that the other person that took his place was Cesar Chavez? ..: Cesar ....... M: Do you see pictures of him in homes? R: He was the one that kind of followed in his footsteps and we kind of went with him after that. P: I've been advocating among the people in the community ... I would like to see Avenue Q re-named Cesar Chaevz Blvd.Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 25 M: Is there support for that idea? P: Among the Anglos there is dismay. (laughter) Among the Hispanics ... the Mexican-Americans ... they say ... ..... What a great idea! It's not an original idea of course. But other cities ... Austin already has a Cesar Chavez Avenue so this is where I got the idea. But around here it's either yes or my, gosh, why? C: ...... Mexican name on the ........... M: When you were each children ... who were your role models? Where they famous people like for instance President Kennedy ... were they your own family members? ... your father? ... your mother? ... or an older brother? Who did you look to for guidance? P: There's a sport figure I looked up to ... ....... Avilar ... he was a major league baseball player ... I don't think he was Mexican. I think he was Venzuelan. But the name ... you know ... I used to like baseball a lot ... and so any name that was Hispanic ... you know ... I always assumed that they were Mexicans. M: You felt a link to. Uh-huh. Mr. Carrillo? C: I didn't have a role model all the time. I can't remember ..... M: No models? C: I just had to know enough about them to even consider them. Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 26 B: I think mine was my aunt ... she was very Catholic and she had ........... M: Uh-huh. What were the qualities you admired about your her? B: Well, she was very loving and she always ... you know ... she always was worrying about us being ... to mass ... and she cared a lot about our faith you know ... for us to grow up in our church and stuff like that. And she would always make sure that we would be there. More than my parents. M: More than your parents? B: Yes. I remember that ........... M: Father Rameriz? R: I guess I would owe my vocation to my mom and dad. The deep religion that they instilled in all of us. And the respect that they used to have towards the priest. And they kind of ... I guess in a way ... when you look at it nowadays ... they had him up on a pedestal ... and it was just that they admired the man ... they respected the person ... for what he represented ... and you just were never allowed to say anything but nice things about him. And look towards him as something different from us ... somebody ... And I think that instilled in me the vocation that I have now. M: I was just going to ask ... when did you start thinking that you would like to be a priest?Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 27 R: Be one of them ... yeah. M: When you were a child you already thought of that vocation? R: Yeah ... I think I grew up in that enviornment and that kind of pushed me on to being what I am today. M: When Mrs. Bernal was talking about her aunt I thought that one thing I'd like to ask and perhaps you should be the one to tell us first is ... what role do women play in preserving your culture and heritage? B: I think they were very important because I think the ... mostly the mother was the backbone ... I guess you could say ... of the family ... in trying to ... you know ... make sure that they were going in the right way. Usually the father was busy working and sometimes ... you know ... .......... maybe ..... compadres ........ M: Could you men each tell me too what you remember of your mother or whoever were the significant women in your family when you were young? What was she like? What was her role in sharing the work of the family and passing on values and raising the children? Like ... I'd like for each of you to address this. C: I personally ... mother has always said work ... you know ... she said work was ... you know ... was one of the main things that a person ... especially a man should do ... but yet I agree with ... because the woman was instrumental way back there and Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 28 even more than now ... 'cause she was home all day long ... she was doing the home chores ... she was a lady-of-the-house ... she was the backbone of the family at the time ... whatever she said ... until he comes in ... well, that was it. And if you didn't like what she said you were ... ......... and you was going to get it ... one way or the other ... you'd get it. M: Mr. Perez-Montalvo? P: It was the same way at our house. Mom kept everything going. She cooked ... she shopped ... she put us ... she insisted on us going to school ... she made sure we had the school. She told us stories about the ... the role models you asked about awhile ago ... I mean ... our family they were men and ... generally men ... like my grandfather ... great-uncles. We repeat names in our family. We get ... I was named after my dad's Uncle Pedrocero and so on and so forth ... my son is the same way ... and so they would tell us stories ... ................. heroic things that he did ... kind things that he did ... kind things that my grandfather did ... this was done by my mom. M: She was passing on family history. P: Right. Yeah. And along with that ... creating role models for us. We ... like yourself ... I didn't have any great role models in the community other than just Bobby ....... Avila ... the baseball player ... So I guess maybe my mom was Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 29 substituting those role models by giving us family history that we could emulate. M: Uh-huh. P: Mom kept it pretty much running ... she's the ... she's the one that did it all. Dad provided ... but she may all the day-to-day decisions. M: Father Rameriz? R: We used to ... we used to look up to dad as the provider ... the one that went out ... had to .... ... sometimes when you think about it it seems to me like he was the bird that left the nest and went for the worm and brought it home to mom and all the children. So mom was really the real important person in that home. She carried the load and everybody obeyed her. And she was the one that had everything ready for you when the time came ... whether it was a meal ... ironed clothes or washed clothes or whatever ... she was there. And she was the one that used to stay up at night until all her children came home. And even though sometimes we used to take off our shoes and tiptoe into our room ... mom would hear us come in ... and she would say ... Is that you, Julian? ... or ... Is that you so-and-so? And the son would answer ... Yes, mother. And she would say ... Go to bed. That was all. So she would be the ... I think she would be the role model that we had in those days. We didn't have leaders but we had a great mother. Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 30 And I was one person that ... that I really loved that woman. And I had a funny way of showing it ... because if she was cooking I used to go and grab her by the back and just squeeze her to death until she got tired and got loose and whatever she had in her hand she threw at me. I used to go and pull her hair or take off her apron ... but that was my way of saying I love you ... I appreciate you ... and I just admire you for who you are and who you represent. We all have different ways of showing our love and respect and this is how I showed mine. M: I suspect she appreciated those big bear hugs. P: She did. M: I'm a mother of 4 so I would like that. P: And you know when she died then sure we missed her ... I did. But then I was glad that I was able to express all that love when she was alive. When she could feel how I felt about her ... when she could see me ... and I used to express that love and gratitude ... when we used to meet eye-to-eye. And I think that's the way it should be done. And that's the way I did it. And I'm very happy I did. And not wait until she was gone and then ... oh ... M: You bet. One thing that's been mentioned briefly a couple of times ... today it's been education ... those of you who were on the migrant trail mentioned that you started school late and people have told us in other meetings that their family Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 31 ... their parents ... stressed the importance of getting an education so that you ... the children ... can have a better life than the parents did ... was that the experience that you all had? And what education where you able to get? R: Well, us being a family of 11 it was ... it was pretty tough. And they ... mom and dad had to sacrifice a lot. Of course I became a Missionary priest ... there was no experience involved in that ... but then my other brothers would stay home ... and sisters ... for instance ... one way or another they were educated ... they reached goals ... they were qualified ... they are qualified in their own capacity ... and it was a great sacrifice. But we got there. And I think we owe it all to the dedication and sacrifices that mom and dad had to make. And the commitment that they had to continue encouraging us to go ahead ... that it could become possible. And so we owe it all to them. M: What was the experience of other people? B: Myself ... my father became ill and he had to go to a Veteran's Hospital ... so that's where he was most of the time I was growing up. And ... but my mother stayed here and she worked and she sent us to school. And the one thing that she never, never wanted us was to be on welfare or anything like that. She just worked hard. And she .......... And I guess she ... she just worked hard ... and we worked hard too ... Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 32 you know ... after school ........ But then I got married and I finished my education ... high school ........ C: At the time I was growing up ... and I never did graduate from high school ... like I think it was simply because most of the kids ahead of me that was graduating was at the fields about the same time that I was ... not as young ... they wasn't even ... .......... graduation when I'd go in the fields ... and ........ graduate to be in the fields like they were .......... ............. So this is some of experience that we had with the education part of it. Of course God ... you know ... perseveres ... myself .............. I'm not a ... you know ... a graduate ... but I'm ... family all graduated ... that's one thing about it ... they all came out ... I had 6 of them ... they all graduated ... because I didn't I was sure that they would. M: Alright. C: So this is part of the education. M: Sure be a source of pride. C: ......... and I think is what would happen ... and I think this is kind of discouraging ... me and a lot of the others about the same age ... ........ a couple of years and just going into the fields like the rest of them ... ........ ... and I think ... I don't know whether it was done intentionally or not but that's the way it was.Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 33 M: Uh-huh. P: There were 4 before me in our family who did not graduate ... I was the first one to go through high school and finish high school and go on to college. My parents always emphasized the fact that it was necessary and I'm very glad that they did. I look now back and am very grateful that my life has turned out as it has because I did go to school. It's something that I encourage the young people nowadays to do. And knowing the dropout rate that the Mexican-American children have and the needs of high-tech industries ... it appalls me that we have such a high rate of dropouts. M: The schools that you all went to when you were children ... tell me a little bit what they were like ... were you the minority or where they mostly Spanish speaking children? Were you allowed to speak Spanish? How were you treated? P: I attended ... the very first school that I attended in the United States was Stephen F. Austin Elementary School in Eagle Pass. I was a fourth grader in Mexico in a parochial school so they put me in the fourth grade in American school. I couldn't speak English but I was far ahead of my contemporaries in math and in science ... spelling and language and all of that I didn't know anything about. In the playground I didn't know the rules because they had been explained to me in English but I was talking in Spanish to another kid and all Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 34 of sudden something hit me on the head and it was a big University of Texas graduation ring that a man teacher had ... he came back and hit me ... real hard ... I cried ... I cried ... I was a very small fourth grader I guess ... just a very timid fourth grader ... and that was my first experience with discipline because I spoke Spanish in the playground. In the local school system ... I went to Sanders Elementary which was ... early Mexicano's at that time ... there were a few Anglos ... no Blacks ... and it was a very rough school ... a lot of older kids who should have been maybe in junior high or even in high school still attended as 5th graders and 6th graders ... so there were a lot of fights after school. There was a lot of intimidation going on. Of course mom would come and meet us right outside the school and we'd walk home with her. After that we moved to another part of town where I was a minority in terms of the rest of the kids being Anglo and that's when I really began excelling in academic work and learning more English. And after that I went to a junior high that was primarily ... I was ... for 2 years I was the only Mexicano ... by the 9th grade there were others but not very many of us. I graduated from Monterrey High School in 1963. Monterrey is again ... at that time was all Anglo ... my graduating class there were 2 Mexicanos and maybe 714 ... I would say ............ Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 35 M: Who else ... talk about their school days? B: ..... I think in my school ... I went to Hunts Elementary ... and there was a mixture of Whites and Mexican-Americans ... there were no Blacks there that I can remember. But we got along well and I had a lot of Anglo friends. And I remember they were happy times ........... M: Did ... did the Mexican-Americans speak Spanish? Were they allowed to? B: No ... you were not allowed to speak Spanish ........ R: We didn't know any other language but Spanish. 'Cause my mother and dad were from Mexico. So when we started school ... I mean ... we started from scratch ... and we didn't know English so ... and we weren't allowed to speak Spanish. And I remember distinctly when ... because we used to live out on the farm and ride a bus and mother used to make tacos for us and torillas ... not ........... ... but tortillas with beans and then wrap them up and roll them up and when lunch time around we were so ashamed to bring out the tortilla and eat it because everybody else ... the Anglo children had sandwiches and all that ... and we had ... there we were with our tortilla eating ... and that was our experience in the school. And of course not being able to speak when we wanted to ... our own language and ... I guess we were forced to learn English ... and that's how we came to learn it ...............Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 36 P: .......... just reminded me of a similar experience ... my mom would prepare my lunches and I felt very awkward ... again like yourself ... eating a tortilla in the lunchroom and the other kids were buying their lunches or would bring sandwiches ... so I had my mom ... to avoid the embarrassment ... make me sandwiches but it was with food that would ordinarly go in a taco ... you know ... papas con chorrizos ... or papas con ... whatever it was that she put in it ... but it would be in a sandwich form. (laughter) M: Quite a compromise. C: Talking about school a little bit ... you'd think that ... looking at it back now ... you know ... that you go off and look ......... ... I don't think we had as much ... to me ... it seems like now that I look back ... qualified teachers teaching us the language. Even now ...... we check them out ... you know ... schools ... the Black schools ....... ... and the public schools are not getting qualified teachers ... the best teachers are in other parts of the well-to-do districts. And I think this ... I remember back there that ... yeah, we had a quilt-man for a principal ... you know ... somebody that sells quilts on the streets ... and his name was Mr. ................ And you know ... this type of deal. And I look back and see that we had a quilt-man for a principal ... is this right? ... you know. And I think since then ... well Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 37 ... ...... grown up and the kids were going to school ... I attended a lot of PTAs. You know ... I think that's one of the main things ... that you need to pay attention when the kids are going to school ... that you must be there in order to see that the things .......... and I think ... you know ... but it is ... I don't think we're getting the right teachers ... you know ... in our schools. .............. now ... like you say ... you learn more in Southwest Lubbock you would in any other part of town. Because they do ............. qualified teachers. Teachers are teachers and they work hard ... ...... problems in our areas because of the ... culture's different. But if they are smart enough .... as a teacher they can overcome the barriers if they want to. You know ... I think that's ... I remember here awhile back in ....... order to have a teacher ........... she had to retire at what? ... 65 ... something like that ... she had to retired once from a school ........ retired from this other one. Now this lady's too old to be teaching ... you know ... some of the young ... I ............ so this is a ............ M: One exhibit idea I meant to ask you all about and we're practically out of time and I see I'd forgotten was ... we're thinking of putting a truck ... maybe just the truckbed ... with the cab looking like it's fading into a painting or maybe a whole truck with the cab that would play Spanish radio from Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 38 different periods ... but the truck itself ... a migrant laborer's truck taking them to the fields. This idea has had some very ferocious reaction from some people. They have said that would be a stero-type ... a put-down ... and that should not be in the exhibit. Since some of you do indeed have migrant-laborer backgrounds ... tell us how you feel about that and if we should do it ... what's the correct way to go about it ... what should be included? P: I have an opinion on that because I've experienced some of this opposition you're speaking about ... in talking with different people several years ago about what I would like to see in a museum as part of the exhibit ... part of it was that I'd like to memorialize the efforts that the Mexicano made to the economy of this area ... the farmworker for instance ... that's the basis for this ... the wealth in this empire ... .......... And I suggested a saca ... a sack where we put the cotton ... and people opposed that. Well, to me that's very much a part of our background and part of what we need to pass on. And likewise I think maybe the radio music program may not be appropriate ... but some form that gives the youngsters nowadays a historical perspective of what it was like back then and what we did and what our grandparents did and what the people that came before us and why they came ... and so I ... while I respect peoples' opinion about it ... I Tejano Community Meetings - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 1 of 2) 39 personally feel it's very much a part of our background and we need to recognize it. M: I'd like to change the tape before anyone else talks ... I'm nearly at the end again and I want to make sure I get all or your comments. END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES Tejano Community Meetings INTERVIEW WITH: Pete Perez-Montalvo, Joe Carrillo, Mrs. ..... Bernal, Lucy Garcia, Father ..... Rameriz (Tape 2 of 2) DATE: 16 October 1994 PLACE: St. Joseph's Church, Lubbock, Texas INTERVIEWER: Phyllis McKenzie M: This is tape 2 , side 1, of the Lubbock Community Meeting, Phyllis McKenzie facilitating, today's date is October 16, 1994. We were just talking about the possibility of having a migrant-laborer truck in the Tejano exhibit and I was asking you all your reactions to this. We thought it could possibility even be a story telling area where a live actor could tell some of the stories that we've all been talking about now ... about the background ... about what conditions were like. How do you feel about this as an exhibit element? R: I think that the mural that we have down there in the park is a very clear expression of the history of the Mexicano here in West Texas. The part of it ... not all of it ... the Mexicans picking the cotton ... the trailer ... or truck there full of cotton ... and then the church ... Our Lady of Guadalupe ... all that ... I think those 3 things they express very much our history in this part of Texas. Don't you think so Pete? P: Very much. The people that settled this area ... whether they were Anglos or whether they were Hispanic ... Mexican-American pioneers ... whatever their background ... Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 2 of 2) 2 now ... they met a very hostile enviornment ... this is a very cold area ... the weather is very hostile ... whether it's in the winter or the summer ... and so those were adverse ... adversaries that we ... our people had to overcome ... just like everybody else. But in addition to those elements that everybody had in common our people also had the hostile envionment of the rest of the community. And so the work that we did needs to be emphasized. M: ........? C: I think that the talking ... what we're discussing right now ... the young people now say like ... ......... they don't relate to any of this ... you know ... they never had to work. I mean ... you know ... they'll go to ......... they don't even touch cotton. I mean ... even though we've got thousands of acres they don't even go out there and touch the cotton anymore. Or they never have. So there's no relation between our past and the future as far as ... you know ... they're just stories like ... you know ... the war stories ... or whatever it is. And I think this is why ..... just a story about cotton picking and what is cotton picking? And I'm glad the machinery came in when it did. (laughter) I think it helped us a ..... 100 percent ... I'm glad it came in when it did. All this machinery. Even though it hurt a lot people ... I think it helped us a 100 percent ..... education part .......Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 2 of 2) 3 M: Yeah. Everyone who has actually picked cotton has mentioned what exhausting work it is. C: Oh ......... you know ... you're constantly ... R: It was a way of living. It was a way of ..... C: Yeah ... it was ... you know ... R: It was the only thing that we could do without being discriminated. And so we went for it. And we enjoyed it and we lived up to it. I have nothing to be ashamed of. C: Well ... this machinery ... what I was saying that the ... yeah, the work itself was a back-killer. I don't care ... somebody has worked in those fields ... ....... killed you. ............. if not it gets your backbone out of whack ... so ... M: Sally just gave us the 5 minute signal and one question I haven't asked is extremely important so I hope we can fit this in a little bit of time we have left and that you all will give me your ideas. What should the message of the exhibit be? What should a visitor leave the exhibit thinking or feeling? And maybe another way to phrase the question is ... just what are the most important things about your culture? That you would like to communicate. Would each one of you take a turn wrestling with this question? P: I like the fact ... I would like to leave a visitor feeling good about the fact that we are different but we are Americans. Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 2 of 2) 4 We're slightly different because of the ... well, for many reasons ... whatever they might be ... and that will be addressed in the exhibit. But the contributions that we've made ... the development of the land are many ... contributions that we've made in time of war are many ... we have defended very faithfully the flag, the Stars and Stripes. Our origins were of conflict and we had an opportunity in this region ... in this state ... to become ........ and fight among ourselves and continue as they have done in parts of the world ... in the Middle East ... I mean Eastern Europe ... and in other parts ... we don't do that here. And that's a great pity ... not only to the Mexican but to the Anglo that we've dealt with. And basically I guess my message would be ... Hey, respect us and give us a chance to do ... continue to be Americans. M: Thank you. Mr. Carrillo? What should the message of the exhibit be? C: I think it should be something between the past and the present and future. I don't know exactly what but I think it should be ... ............. M: Talking about the fact that there was a continuity from the past to now and will continue. C: ............ we must get educated ........ I think that's one of the things ........ educated ... you know ... if you succeed in this country ... in this time and age ... not only Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 2 of 2) 5 in this country anywhere in the world. M: And what else is continued through time as far as the value to your culture? C: ......... M: Mrs. Bernal? B: The faith and the unity in the family. M: Faith and family unity. Real good. Father Rameriz? R: I think we're just as much Americans as any Americans and we're just as much Mexicanos as we ever will be. And so we're proud of being ... of 2 ... being part of 2 nationalities and yet being unique in our own. That we can ... we have contributed a lot to this nation as a race of Mexicanos. And we deserve to be treated equally in every level of society. And ... but still we are unique and separated because we are Mexicanos. M: Okay. Thank you all. One thing that's arisen more than once today are some of negative experiences you've all had ... the discrimination or the conditions that you've been forced to live in ... or being punished for speaking Spanish ... which of these should we include in the exhibit? How should be include them? Or should we include in? Some people have said that would make the exhibit negative and other people have said that that's part of the experience ... that that is part of the truth ... and it should be there. And many other things that we haven't talked about but the fact that the Texas Rangers Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 2 of 2) 6 sometimes dispossessed people of their land ... some of the negative and abusive things of the past ... how should we address this? P: Joe. C: Well, ... life was tough. P: If you don't address the past you're going to make the same mistakes and so they need to be addressed. The ...... Museum ... I think there's another one that just opened in New York ... Washington that deals with the Holocaust ... M: The Holocaust Museum ... uh-huh. P: Those things ... while the indignities that our people suffered are not as great on the level of what was done to the Jewish people in Germany ... they do need to be included. I think that they need to be addressed. The format ... how it's going to be done ... you don't have time to address ... I'm not the person to address either ... but I strongly feel that they need to be recognized ... they need to be recognized ... and even talked about ........... M: That was obviously the signal from Sally that I'm imprisoning you all here (laughter) ... but if any of the rest of you would like to say something on that topic I'd sure like to hear it before I shut it off ... about how do we address and talk about .... C: I think it should be tape ... I think a tape ... if anybody Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 2 of 2) 7 wants to hear ... you know ... don't you think? P: Yeah ... maybe that ....... M: One possibility ... let me tell you ... if our tape is clear enough there's a possibility that we'll take some excerpts of what you all said today. C: You have a tape ...... M: It let's visitors hear that. C: ... it's automation ... and just want to hear the story ... story-teller from ... you know ... .............. ... you don't have to ...... pictures ... you just hear the stories like the radio ... used to hear the radio ... you remember that radio we used to have 'way there ... with one light and ....... radio ... What was it ... what was the show 'way back then ... ? (laughter) ... R: I don't know of any way ... C: The Shadow I think was the .... M: Thank you all ... and I apologize for being a slave-driver. You probably realize some of the other groups were ..... C: I enjoyed it ......... M: ... getting an easier time of it. But thank you all so much for talking to me. I've really learned a lot. Appreciate it a lot for you all taking the time to talk. P: Thank you for the opportunity. M: There is a light supper being served and just mingle Tejano Community Meeting - St. Joseph's Church - Lubbock, Texas / Phyllis McKenzie (Tape 2 of 2) 8 informally with anyone out there. R: Make sure you ...... C: Oh, for supper I'll ... we'll stay. (laughter) END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1. SIDE 2 - BLANK. |
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