THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting
INTERVIEW WITH: Jose Romo, Carmillo Martinez,
Emilio Abeyta (Tape 1 of 2)
DATE: 16 October 1994
PLACE: St. Joseph's Church, Lubbock, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Tom Shelton
S: This is Tom Shelton and I am at St. Joseph's Church in Lubbock and this is October 16, 1994, and I am interviewing ... would you state your name? Could you state your name?
JR: Jose Romo.
S: And you live here in Lubbock?
Jose: Yeah. 104 North .........
S: And you said you said you were born where?
Jose: Elgin, Texas.
S: In Travis County? Or near Austin?
Jose: No, it was in Elgin, Texas. Because Taylor and Elgin they county was Bastrop .......
S: Bastrop County.
Jose: Yeah, in was in Elgin.
S: And then were did you live after ... how many years did you live there?
Jose: I was a little biddy kid here I can tell you. We moved to Taylor which is about ... Taylor 15 miles ... between Taylor and Elgin. And like I tell you ... put in my 11 years out there in Mexico ... 10 years I lived here in Texas.S: Where in Mexico?
Jose: Outside of ... I went to ................ Then we moved there to ................... Coahuila. My wife I married here ... out there in New Mexico. ............ went to have the physical checkup during the second war ... World War ... and ......... have no school. I grow up out there in Mexico.
S: When did you come back to the United States?
Jose: I was already 20 ... 20 years old when I come back to ..........
S: And that was during World War II?
Jose: Yeah. ........ Well, when I really come back to ........ 20 ... when I went to the physical checkup you know ... but I still went back out there ... like I tell you I married my wife ...
S: So you didn't ... you weren't in World War II?
Jose: No I didn't. I did go to the physical checkup you know ... but they told me ........ didn't have no school.
S: Oh, I see.
Jose: It was 96 guys out there on that ............ to San Antonio you know ....... just a bunch of them ... only 2 of them passed the physical checkup.
S: So where did you go ... where did you go after that?
Jose: Well, I went back to Mexico.
S: And then how ... when did you come back?
Jose: And then I come back to here ... back to Texas ... and I went to Tyler, Texas.
S: And when was that?3
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Jose: It's pretty close to ......
S: When was that that you went to Tyler?
Jose: Oh ... in the '30 ... about '34 something like that.
S: 1930 ... and then when did you come here?
Jose: Oh, here to Lubbock? '50 ... well, from there I went to Galveston. I lived out there about 5 years. It was about '52 ... '53 ... no '53 ... ............... I've been living here since then.
S: Where you involved with fishing there in Galveston?
Jose: No, I didn't care about fishing. I had a fishing rod yeah, but I never did care about it.
S: You were just working there?
Jose: I was working at the gas company.
S: At the gas company.
Jose: I worked 5 years there at the gas company. Then I moved here and I stayed about a week over here and I started working over here at the gas company.
S: At the gas company here in Lubbock?
Jose: I put in 10 years out there working with the gas company over here. When I just couldn't get along with my boss I had to quit.
S: Did you see how to do this? Rate those things on the right ... from 1 to 10 according to ... opinion.
Would you state your name and where you're from?4
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CM: Originally from? I'm Carmillo Martinez, I'm originally from Harlingen, Texas.
S: How long did you live there?
CM: 25 years ... no 22 years.
S: And your family was there for a good while?
CM: ..........
S: And then where did you live after that?
CM: All over. I'm a military retiree. I joined the service in '55 ... retired in '76. I'm a retired meteorologist and now I'm a professor here at Texas Tech.
S: Um. And what do you teach at Texas Tech?
CM: I teach the history of the Mexican-Americans ... Tejano history.
S: Do you want to introduce yourself?
EA: My name is Emilio Abeyta, I'm an attorney here in Lubbock, Texas.
S: And were you born here?
EA: I was born in Puerto de Luna, New Mexico. Moved to Littlefield, Texas, which is about 35 ... 40 miles west of west of Lubbock in 1951 ... so I was about 10 years old when we moved to Littlefield. I did part of my high school in Littlefield, Texas, and then went back to finish my high school and college in Santa Fe, New Mexico. After that I moved from Santa Fe ... I went to Columbus, Ohio, to finish my major seminary ... I 5
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became a priest in 1966 ... came back to serve in Lubbock, Texas, from 1966 through 1974. I resigned from the priesthood in 1974 and went to Washington, D.C., for 11 years. 1985 ... August of 1985 ... I returned back to Lubbock and I've been a practicing attorney ever since. And now I'm running for county judge. So I've had a mix-up experience ... the experience of moving into Texas from New Mexico was a shocker. Then growing up for a few years ... my high school years in Littlefield ... coming back to serve the people of Lubbock, Texas, and other areas in West Texas as a priest ... my priesthood included more than just working as a priest. It included serving the people totally. So it inlcuded a lot of social work, political activism, things like that. And after I left in 1974 and went to work in Washington for the Commission on Civil Rights ... did some writing on bilingual education ... education in general ... employment ... national civil rights issues ... political participation in particular ... then I went to work for the Department of Justice for 6 1/2 years as a recruiter to work for Hispanics to work in the federal government. And returned back to Lubbock ... to open my private practice as an attorney. So I've had a unique combination of experiences.
S: Very interesting.
EA: Yeah.
Before I can rate these ... these suggestions like ... 6
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many schoolroom ... contemporary home interiors ... is there something that I missed earlier in your program? I don't quite understand what ...
S: You couldn't see his plan very well ... although he didn't include that in the plan ... but that was an idea of perhaps having a mini-schoolroom ... it would be an escuelita ... I don't know if you experienced escuelitas ... EA: Oh, yeah, I know the ....
S: I don't think .....
EA: I know the concept of escuelitas but ... as ... who's ideas are these or ..... ?
S: It's a combination of people ... some of who are no longer on this committee. Because we are an educational facility there's ... always the schoolroom comes up. Now we do have ...
EA: For a mini-schoolroom at what level? for what groups?
S: I am assuming they're talking about a elementary school ... sort of a one-room school type.
EA: Uh-huh.
S: ......
EA: Now the second one ... a contemporary home interior with a home altar ...
S: There's a problem there ... what group would you chose ... which group in Texas would you chose to display their home? 7
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I mean can you think of an average Tejano home?
EA: I don't think we should talk in terms of averages ... I think we should talk in terms of varieties. We're all ... you know ... ........ group of ....
S: And that's the problem ... and not all are Catholics.
CM: ...... idea that ............. they're going to have a display ... there is an important ...... come into this building ... and there will see a mock-up of an escuelita ... or a mock-up of a home ... and things of that sort that go along with it ... maybe we don't want that to be shown in this display ... and I think that was the gist of what .............
EA: See ... since I missed the first part of the program so it makes it difficult for me to ....
S: Well, he had a plan there of a modern home ... that they'd had a couch inside and then a TV screen that would ... you would sit there on the couch and you would learn about family life and so forth and then it would have ... it would be a Catholic home where there would be an altar there. But how do you feel about that? Is there a better way of teaching people about family life than having a miniature house there?
EA: Let me read through the rest of this since I missed the presentation ......... disadvantage .....
S: Not many of these things were talked about in the presentation.8
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EA: ..........
S: Mr. Romo, there's a thing here about Tejano-owned businesses. For example ... a bakery ... cleaning shop ... a restuarant ... or maybe a pharmacy ... or a botanica ... do you think any of those would be of interest to people?
Jose: They ought to be ... yeah. .........
S: The bakeries? Are there Mexican bakeries here in Lubbock?
Jose: Yeah ... it's one ................
S: Pandulce?
Jose: Yeah ... yeah.
S: What about a botanica?
EA: A what?
S: A botanica ... a drugstore that has ...
..: .........
S: ... the herbs.
..: ...........
S: Another thing is talking about the ... about the celebrations here in Lubbock. What do you celebrate here? Do you have the Diez y Seis ... the Cinco de Mayo?
..: Yeah.
S: What do you do at that?
Jose: Once they did make a parade downtown.
S: A parade ......
..: Yeah ... '60s I think.9
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S: Is there a parade for the Cinco de Mayo?
Jose: Yeah ... they do have parades .........
S: What about the Dia de los Muertos? Do they celebrate that?
Jose: Well we ... not as a celebration ... but we do celebrate because of ... make a mass ..... church ... we pray for them.
S: You go to cemetary?
Jose: Yes. Yeah ... because my father's buried out there and I got a sister out there ... we go out there to the cemetary.
S: You take flowers or ... ?
Jose: Yes, I take flowers.
S: What about at Christmas? what do you do?
Jose: (laughter) Not really did I go out or something like that but I stay until midnight and ............. my kids ....... so we celebrate ...........
S: What do you eat?
Jose: Well, sometimes my wife makes some tamales.
S: They mention here footage of a low-rider gathering ... do they have low-rider gatherings here in Lubbock?
Jose: I don't ................
CM: I've never seen it but I'm sure they have it.
EA: There are a lot of low-riders and I believe the clubs are developing in this ......
CM: ..........10
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S: What about curanderismo? are there curanderos in Lubbock?
..: ..........
S: Curanderos?
Jose: Well I have heard some about it ... but .......
S: They are not common in Lubbock?
Jose: I would rather go to a doctor ....... yeah.
S: I'll ask you some of these questions ... but when you were traveling around the state ... did you notice differences in the Mexican-American culture in different parts of the state?
Jose: Yeah.
S: In what way? the language? their celebrations or what?
Jose: Yeah ... yeah ......
S: Both of those.
Jose: I remember ... you remember ........ I don't know. What's the name of this theater that was over here? downtown? Lindsey.
..: Lindsey.
Jose: Lindsey. I went out there one time ... we had just got in from ... I mean Galveston ... my wife and myself ... had 2 boys and 2 girls ... they were little kids you know ... I went up there and I bought the 2 tickets for me ... my wife ... myself ... well, my wife stayed behind with my 2 little girls and I had my 2 boys with me ... as soon as they see my wife ... they say they don't sell it to Mexicans ... they don't 11
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sell no tickets to Mexicans. They give me my money back.
S: So there was a racial ... there was prejudice to the Mexican-Americans?
Jose: Yeah. They told me they don't sell no tickets to Mexican people. Like I tell you they already had sold it to me ... but they didn't see my wife ... as soon as they see my wife ... they say they don't sell it to Mexicans. They give me my money back. .........
S: Your wife is from Mexico?
Jose: Yeah. She's ...... I married her out there in Mexico. But like I tell you they sell me the tickets to me ... I had my 2 boys with me ... and I bought the 2 tickets ... my wife stayed behind with my 2 girls out there in the car ... and as soon as they see my wife they tell me they don't sell no tickets to Mexican people. They give me my money back ...........
S: Was it an English language film?
Jose: Yeah ... white people ... white people ... yeah.
S: Did you encounter problems like that in other parts of town?
Jose: No ... well out there in ... I don't remember ... close out to Eagle Pass ... there was a ... I don't remember ... a little bitty town ... they sell tickets for people for the upstairs ... theater ... well ... it's the same thing in a restuarant ... they sell you but you have to go over and eat 12
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out there in the kitchen. And that was the only way you can get to eat. And there was a sheriff out there ... pretty nice guy ... and of course the little town had a little Mexican restuarant ... it was a lady you know ... this sheriff went out there to the place ... said Lady she wants to eat something ... he said okay ... and the sheriff went out there ... sat out there on the front ... and the lady went and fixed up lunch and everything ... he went and put it out there in the kitchen and he said that lady called that sheriff to go out there and eat ... her lunch was ready ... she said ... Why don't you bring it over here? Sheriff told the lady ... no you ..... place of Mexican people that put us in the kitchen ... so you're white people ... you're in a Mexican town ... ...........
S: A lot of young people don't know about this. Do you think that's important to let them know about these things in the exhibit?
Jose: ...... Like I tell you I went to another place out there ...... it was a restuarant ... they won't sell it to Mexicans ... I had ....... out there on the front ... and I did went out there ... on the front ... they said ........
EA: I think it's important to the telling of the true history. You cannot tell the history of West Texas and the history of Chicanos or Hispanics without telling the truth ... and the truth is that there were courthouses here up as late as the 13
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'50s ... maybe even early '60s ... that still had water fountains ... in the county courthouses ... that were marked ... White ... Colored ... there were signs ... No Mexicans allowed here ... at certain stores. In Littlfield, Texas, I remember as a young person ... when I was a child ... but I remember that the big trucks would come with the migrants that had come to work in agriculture in Lamb County ... they all parked in a big parking lot right next to the railroad depot and that was their place. The people would then get out of the trucks and would go for one block ... two blocks ... and that was the extent of what they were allowed to go ... or there was either a real or imaginary line ... I don't know ... I was not among them myself ... we lived in Littlefield ... but I know that those are the only stores that were frequented by the Mexican-Americans that were traveling to harvest the crops. You would see these large, large numbers of people that would come for a period of time and then they would leave and go on to someother .......... It's hard for young people today to communicate with somebody like me or Mr. Romo and we say discrimination existed and some of the vestiges of discrimination exists today. We have not overcome that. My own son ... I can't mention discrimination or racism ... because he thinks that I go overboard ... that it just doesn't happen. He goes to school with largely ... an Anglo school ... he didn't 14
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know it ... he didn't feel it ... he didn't see it ... he hasn't
heard about it ... he hasn't even read about it. So if he reads
the history of West Texas and somebody doesn't write this up
or reveal it somehow ... that there were signs that said ...
No Mexicans or Dogs Allowed ... or Whites Only ... he thinks
we're not telling the truth. Somebody needs to tell the truth.
I don't know whether photographs exist or some of that or
whether older people still exist ... I know that the Palace
Theater in Littlefield, Texas, in 1950 ... '52 ... the Blacks
and Hispanics would have ... Blacks and then Mexicans is what
they were called then ... now later on they're called
Mexican-Americans ... later on they're called Chicanos ... but
we knew who we were ... had to go upstairs to the balcony.
That's the only place that you could go if you wanted to watch
the movies. Even though ... I was going to high school ...
my best friends were Anglos ... if I went to that theater ...
they had to go sit downstairs ... I had to go upstairs .........
Of course I made it a point to violate that rule regularly
and they finally gave up and tried to get me to go upstairs.
But that existed ... that's a fact ... that's part of the history
... that's part of where we were born and raised.
CM: We do have some books written on the subject of ... We
have a book by Carey McWilliams and the title is .............
well describes everything that Mr. Abeyta here is mentioning
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... and Mr. Romo also.
..: .......
CM: And there was ..... north of Mexico. Then you have a book ... a master's thesis ... just written for Lubbock County ... about the Mexican-American in Lubbock County by investigating ... a brillant piece of work also. Where he describes about the importance of telling our children ...... this young group ... is that they must be taught that what they're having today is not something that they'd just gave it to them ... someone had to work very, very hard. One of the things that impressed me the most is that you all stated that ... the last date of your exhibit was 1968 ... I believe that was what was said.
..: The last one. ......
CM: The portion of the exhibit they have in San Antonio it was updated in 1968 ... you have to consider though that involving ....... Chicanos starts in 1967.
..: Uh-huh.
CM: And it was not going to be updated ... you need to update our history ... our exhibits ... trials and tribulations ... or whatever ... to update it so that you show the true history. You have to consider the phases that we have gone through. Like I said ... I teach the history of Mexican-Americans. And here at the University I present it this way ... the phase 1 ... the traditional point of view ... where the Anglos are the 16
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only ones that had contributed anything positive to the development of Texas ... period ... up until 1967. And then we have ............ professor ...... from ......... State ... they call him ................ and ............ occupied America ... it is people like that that really started shifting the emphasis where we start showing the contribution of the Mexican-American. It would have been of no value to plant all these cotton fields in Lubbock if you did not have the labor. Sure we need it ... we introduce the emphasis of Lubbock .... Lubbock County ... was the influx of the tractor. And everything was the tractor ... the tractor ... but of what value is a tractor? the tractor all it did was clear land ... but it sure as heck didn't have any facilities for havesting the cotton field ... you needed labor. And ............... and others can make this extremely, extremely valid ... the prejudices that existed. Although today you also have to show ... mind you ... that they also ... you have to ........ themselves ... they had the support groups. They had ... well, let's see ... various social functions ... dancing ... and then many other ways of being able to cope with this discrimination. And that has to be brought up in any exhibit that you present about West Texas. EA: You done?
CM: Yes.
EA: I'd like to add to that that the history that we're telling 17
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is not just for my son or your children ... not just for the Hispanics to know their own history ... but the Anglo community and my son's classmates need to know that history. Because they're living in a world right now ... and we talk about young ........... and we're beginning recognize that a lot of the names ... even our high schools are named Estacado... Coronado ... Monterey ... and yet they ... there's still such a lack of knowledge ... where do these names come from and why ... and then there's a lack of knowledge that discrimination or racism or distinctions or divisions ever existed. I think the history is not just for our children but for all of the children to know that this did exist and the consequences of all of that carried through for a long, long time. One good example is if somebody were to do a statistical studies of the number of Chicanos that lived and ...... here in Texas ... let's say in 195.. ... how many were in school? how many graduated? I remember when we would count ... you know ... my, gosh, there were 2 Chicanos ... Gomez and ........ graduated. Or you know ... I mean it was a unique occurrence ... you know ... I mean it was a real accomplishment. You know ... why was it that even though there were large numbers of Chicanos living there they were not making ... it was almost a miracle that they made it into high school and a real miracle if they graduated. How many Hispanics were teaching in those schools at that time? 18
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So we're suffering now ... still some of the consequences of
that exclusion from that period of time. You know ... I moved
to Slaton in 1969 I think it was and we still had a Black school
and a class. I mean we're not that far away from it. We're
20 years away ... 25 years away from the Blacks having their
own school and it certainly did not have the equipment ... the
grounds ... or the teachers ... the books ... that the other
elementary school had across Division Street ... that really
was the name of the street that divided the Blacks from the
other side of town. I think that name Division ...........
..: Uh-huh.
CM: Let me add something to .....
EA: So we're suffering ... what we need to know is that some
of where we are now has been accomplished at great price and
great struggle. Like he said we built up defenses and we built
up mechanisms ... how do we deal with this and how do we overcome
it? And we still haven't overcome a lot of this. And it may
carry through to some degree for many, many generations. It's
like mutations of genes in a certain species of animal let's
say ... you know ... it may not be a analogy but if there are
some mutations there's going to be some degrees of that mutation
of genes for many generations. They might be fine or minute
... but there're still some vestiges. Well, the same thing
is true here and if the exclusion was as severe as it was then
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you can imagine in 25 years we've come a long ways ... but there are still a lot of minute vestiges of all of that ....
..: ........
EA: Go ahead Doctor, you were going to add something ....
CM: I was glad to ...... talk about ... we have to make people aware. The first thing that we have to make people aware at the University is that the study of the Mexican-American history is a worthy discipline to be studied. Right? In my Department ... like I said I'm with the History Department ... ...... 100 or so undergraduates ... graduate students ... and most of them are being steered or geared to we're studying the history of the Roman empire ... the history of Greece ... the history of whatever. And I say this to my colleagues ... I said ... To heck with all that. You know we have more Mexican people in the United States than there are Greeks back in Greece. So why ............ We're worthy of this. We have approximately 22.5 million Hispanic people in the United States. And we're increasing in numbers ... just about every ... the University ... I mean the public school system 50 percent plus are Hispanic students. America and Texas must wake up. Who is going to pay the taxes so that the Gringo who's getting older continues to receive Social Security checks? If we don't want to have this continuing recipients of welfare and we contributors ... we're going to have to invest at least 10 thousand dollars ... 20
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and that must be brought up in these displays that you're having in your place in San Antonio.
S: In the exhibit?
CM: Absolutely. Education. Let's show the progression. Let's say a person is taking cotton ... a person may be being discriminated by not being allowed to go into the theater ... the trucks that are waiting ... like in Littlefield ... my father used to be a migrant up to this part of Texas.
EA: We need to find some of those people and record those experiences.
CM: I .....
EA: Living in the barrios.
CM: I have an article that is coming out November in the West Texas Historical Yearbook and the title of the article is ... ................. Where it talks about all this ... the dances ... the discrimination and the numbers and the things of this sort. So that needs to be explored.
S: Let me change the tape.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
Sally: .... emphasized or brought up because ... you're right ... there are any number of people who don't have the foggiest notion of what went before. You know ... who is it that you would like to see? Or what points in the Texas history would 21
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you like to see?
S: This is side 2.
CM: Well ... that's the big problem you know ... and that the people maybe we would like to put it in our history books or whatever ... are even no longer available or they were people that did not know how to read or write ... that very few records ... however they passed their oral conditions or oral histories to their kids. And it is our responsibility now to extract ... we historians we say ... Well, that is a secondary source. My goodness gracious. A secondary source is just as valid.
Sally: Yeah ... oh, yeah ... no ... it's what we're wondering is ... because who is it that ... one of our Gallery Theater is about?
S: Emma Tenayuca?
Sally: Uh-huh ... Emma Tenayuca. There are people like that that most don't know about who were very powerful in Texas and very important. Very important. Who were these people? 'Cause we'd like to know.
EA: In West Texas in particular?
S: Any ...
Sally: Yeah. Within ...... any part of Texas.
CM: Mr. Abeyta mentioned ........ We're not a monolithic society. I think that is a key thing that people must understand. To say ... Well, who were the Mexican-American? 22
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... there's no such thing as a Mexican-American. That's the first thing that you all have to realize. That not every Hispanic is a Catholic ... not every Hispanic speaks Spanish ...
Sally: That's right.
CM: ... not every Hispanic eats tamales ... .............. You look at West Texas ... this is my argument in ... let's say my theory ... West Texas is composed of people ... Hispanics ... just call them Hispanics ... that came from just about every part of Mexico ... from every part of Texas ... from every part of ... in search of employment.
Sally: Right.
EA: They'd been everywhere and kept coming back.
CM: And in the process ... in the process they brought their culture with them. And probably their culture was .......... including etc.
Sally: That's right.
CM: And here they say ......... South Texas used to like to eat ... let's say tamales with ketchsup ... I'm mean here there was no ketsup ... what .......... ... you've got some chile's from New Mexico and make some ketchsup. (laughter) Right? So all he did ... he improvised ... for survival purposes. And what you have done here in this part of the country ... this part of Texas ... again it's a conglomeration mind you 23
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... a mixture of so much of a different culture. There's no ... cabrito for example ... from my part of Texas ... South Texas ... cabrito and tamalitos ... my goodness gracious ... there's no cabrito here ...
EA: You can't eat no ........
CM: No ... (laughter) ... there's .........
EA: They just don't exist.
CM: No. But again ... you improvise ... you improvise again for survival purposes. But again we're not the only ones who have improvised.
EA: That's right.
CM: Let us say that we have ... that we have some Anglos that came to West Texas ... who came from Virginia ... and they were accustomed to living in log houses ... you find me a log here in Lubbock County. So what did he have to do? He had to imitate the Mexican way of living ... you know ... to survive. But he's not given the credit though. Mexico is not given the credit for having contributed to the culture. ......... he said no ... ........ this is one of my teachings also ... and I call it "the cultural ........ school" ... that there were some Anglos that came to West Texas ... supposedly with well intentions ... but they figure ... well, there's no advantage to try to help the Hispanic because the Hispanic is "culturally determined to cling to his backwards culture and therefor his ....... remain 24
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a campesino forever and a day." And this is not true. Who in the world doesn't want to get out of the cotton fields? Or doesn't want to do whatever?
Sally: They've said that about every ethnic group that ever was.
CM: Absolutely. Absolutely. It's not ...... just to us. ...........
EA: And the question was asked ... Why don't they want to leave that? Or why don't they believe in education? Why don't they get better jobs? Why don't they speak better English? As if it was always our fault.
CM: Yes. .......
EA: As if it was always our fault. Why don't they believe in education? I mean our ancestors certainly believed in education from way back ... it's when they came into this world ... this enviornment that excluded them that it wasn't that they didn't believe ... is that the opportunities were not there. They were not ... if the opportunities were there they were for somebody else and .......... or not even allowed in. Employment ... why don't they better themselves? ... why don't they have better homes? Well, in order to have a better home you've got to have a better job ... you've got to have a better salary ... you've got to have a better income to be able to build a better home. Well, who doesn't want a better home? 25
Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 1 of 2)
You've got to understand all of the history and all of the factors that make us what we are. It isn't that they don't want these things ... or that they don't care ... or that we don't care ... it's ... My dad died at 74 I guess ... still making an income just from barely minimum wage ... you know. Thank God that the rest of us got a better education and advanced to better salaries. But it wasn't because he didn't care ... he ... and he deserved a much better salary ... but he reached a certain ... a certain level where people said that's all he's worth ... he just a Mexican-American ... he's just a janitor ... he's just a laborer ... and that's where he's going to stay ... because certain opportunities are not going to be offered to him beyond that certain level. I don't know what all that means ... but I know that that is a fact. I know my dad. I know the people that would have preferred to have gone to the city park in Littlefield to have a party but they knew that they were not allowed to. Therefore the only place they had to sit with their family and eat their snowcones and whatever they'd bought at the grocery store was in that barren parking lot by the railroad tracks. Apparently that big old parking lot owned by the Santa Fe probably ... I don't know who owned it ... but it was public land and they weren't going to be run out of there ... they were safe there ... you know. You could not drive your big truck loaded with 5 families across town into City Park and 26
Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 1 of 2)
park there ... you know ... everybody had their place.
S: One of the major themes ... we have 4 major themes here
... Colonial roots ... family ... work and community life ...
which is what you're talking about. How could we talk about
community life for the whole state as a whole ... are there
common ... common threads there ... common traits that bind
Tejanos that you could put in there in that section on community
life?
CM: Nothing. If you're talking about Colonial ... you're
speaking Colonial ... the Spanish Colonial period?
S: Well, the community life would be now.
CM: ....... more or less go back ......
S: More or less go back ... back ...
CM: In the chronologial order ... let's say you have Colonial
...
S: Yes ... so the exhibit as whole is not arranged
chronologically except when you come into the exhibit there
will be this section called Colonial Roots which will talk about
the Spanish-Colonial period just to introduce ...
CM: I honestly believe ... this is my opinion ... that this
Colonial ... the emphasis on this Colonial-Spanish has been
overdone. It is not to say that we should reject our Spanish
or our heritage ... because after all we are Spanish in heritage.
But enough is enough. For many, many years even some of the
27
Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 1 of 2)
Hispanic historians they focus strictly on the Colonial period ... they over emphasized it. Now you take San Antonio ... my God ... you come from there all you have to do is look at the UT ...... ... I mean UT San Antonio. They attract still more students to the Colonial-Latin America ... Colonial-Mexico ... Colonial-Texas ... than what they attract to ... is usually Mexican-American ... not to say that it should not be taught mind you ... but it has been going on since ........
S: Do you think it would be a stronger exhibit to just leave that out entirely?
CM: No ... no. What I was saying is the emphasis should be 1967 to the present. I would not be a professor at Texas Tech University if it had not been for the pachucos that were criticized ... because of the ........... Mr. Abeyta probably would not be a lawyer ... he's now running for judge ... if he had ... if there had not been this radical movement in the '60s ... the civil rights movement ... the Chicano movement ........
EA: And the movements need to be looked at .........
CM: .............
EA: ...... movements of people trying to be all they could be. You know ... we say now ... be all you can be ... well, that's all they were trying to do ... it was not to put down anybody or ...28
Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 1 of 2)
CM: Not at all.
EA: ... or destroy anything ... but just to be themselves and to say ... let us be who we are. You know ... instead of ... who you want to make us to be.
CM: I think it's ... the emphasis should be ...... this is my honest opinion ... the emphasis in the Chicano-Tejano district should be 1967 up to the present. Not to say that we're going to ignore everything else. I know ... I mean ... just gloss through the period ... the Colonial ... 1519 ... 1836 ... and then let's say '45 ... Mexican-Americans ... and things of that sort ... but I think everything focuses ... and all the improvement. ......
EA: Today there's a big ... what would you call it? peak or something? ....
CM: Yes. .......
EA: Yeah ... yeah.
CM: I get ... I wish that I'd met them and I could have some dealings with them of ...
..: Informal.
CM: ... .............. when he was a student here.
EA: He's still here.
CM: ...........
EA: He's still here. ........
CM: Yes. ........... was one of the shakers and movers here 29
Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 1 of 2)
at Texas Tech University mind you. And I say that if it not been for people like ..........
EA: ............
CM: Yes ... I would not be here ... they're the ones that started insisting that there be a history of the Mexican-American ... that they started having a fraternity ... ....... fraternities ... San Antonio is the same way. San Antonio ... you look at the ... ...... project the Spanish influence ... the golf course has a Hispanic name ... but it sure as heck didn't allow any Mexicans to go play golf. And the Paseo Real ... no Mexicans were allowed ... maybe they could be the trimmers or cut the flowers and so on ... so they over emphasized the Colonial period and rejecting all the Mexican influence. And this is what has to be brought up.
S: How do you think it would be most effective in an exhibit? Do you think to focus on individuals who made a difference? on organizations? the stories of particular individuals who were not leaders but were ...?
CM: What ..... story would be complete without ... let's say Hector Garcia ... from Corpus Christi, Texas ... and I'm sure that you already have ... I've been to your place there in San Antonio ...
S: It's a very brief write-up.
Sally: It's breaktime.30
Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 1 of 2)
CM: Yes. Without ... you could not possibly ... ....... in San Antonio ............ people critize him or whatever ... but he broke the ice ... negative publicity ... possibly because when you look at it ... ............ ... there are leaders ... more leaders. I hate to say ... well, I've always hated people who say that ... well, he is your role model ... just like Chavez for example ... I don't need a role model.
EA: They did what they needed to be doing to get done in those circumstances.
CM: Absolutely correct. To focus ....
EA: And they were just a little cog along with whatever else others were doing that also needed to be done.
CM: Absoutely.
EA: It is a combination of these waves ... little ... little waves by supposedly ........ people that were having an impact that built up to a certain peak that made some changes. So ... but to get away from just the big names ... you know ... we need to get down to some of the people that ... you know ... who were the first ... ah ... some of the church leaders for example ... may have had some impact. Some of the ... the first people that first decided to organize a political group ... whatever size it was ... it needed to have been done. We now have an independent committee that is supporting 3 Hispanic candidates for judges ... we never have been before. Well, 31
Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 1 of 2)
that could not have started if Francisco Carillo had not run or some other people that ran and lost and just took horrendous beatings even to not ... I don't mean physical beatings ... but political beatings ... just daring to throw their name out when everybody ..... why are you doing it? you don't have a chance in the world. It was something that needed to be done in order to develop the community to make it be where it needed to be. ...
CM: But now that we have done that ... but now that we have done that ... this morning's paper ... we ... what is it? ... the Republican party chairman ... something ..... criticizing ...
EA: ...... criticizing our committee and implying that we are doing something unethical.
CM: Yes.
EA: And then they say ... But, that's alright, we're not going to do anything about it. Now I guarantee you, if we were doing ... if I were doing something unethical you think my Republican opponent would just say ... Ah, just let him do it?
CM: (laughter) No.
EA: I mean he'd jump on it.
CM: That's correct.
EA: You know that it's not unethical ... but he's implying to the rest of the community that I'm doing something unethical 32
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Tom Shelton (Tape 1 of 2)
but he's going to let me go ... that's OK.
CM: I was just going to say ....
EA: That is baloney ... that is baloney ... because what he's doing is creating an image in the larger community that what I'm doing is unethical. But he doesn't ............. because I'm going to win anyway ... I know that if it were unethical they would have jumped on it 3 weeks ago ... or a month ago or ......
CM: The first time you started.
EA: The first time ... they first time they ...... '94 ... they would have jumped on it. But we investigated it ... we studied what the law is and that independent committee is perfectly legitimate ... I say ... Fine, go ahead and use my name. You know ... if you're going to endorse me ... I need your endorsement and I need your support and you're perfectly legitimate. So there's still some of those vestiges that we cannot overcome. Now we had to come back and respond to that and say ... Come on now, what are you trying to say? In between the lines you're telling the Anglo community that we're doing something unethical. And then you expect us to respect your opinion. By the newspaper ... did not come out and saying ... We spoke to Judges ..... and we spoke to the Republican Party ... but looked at it ourselves and we've studied it. You know ... they're making allegations that it's unethical ... but we 33
Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 1 of 2)
find that it isn't unethical.
CM: And then when we complain ...
EA: But they didn't say that ... that last line is missing.
CM: That would be the thing on tomorrow's lecture in my class. Alright. Keeping track of everything that's going on. The students need to be aware of what is happening there.
EA: The implication of being Latin.
CM: Uh-huh. And I ........ tomorrow morning at my 10 o'clock class ... bingo! ...
S: She wants us to take a break.
Sally: You've only got a few more minutes to breaktime ... so if you want to .....
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting
INTERVIEW WITH: Jose Romo, Carmillo Martinez,
Emilio Abeyta (Tape 2 of 2)
DATE: 16 October 1994
PLACE: St. Joseph's Church, Lubbock, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Tom Shelton
EA: ... some essential points in the history.
S: Of course there will be the audio-visuals and tapes so the people can listen to voices. And I think a lot of things can only be done that way. But it's important to be able to lead people to get their attention so that they will listen to the voices.
EA: I think something interesting is happening now ... ....... the large following of Chicano writers that are getting pushed ... the talent was alway there ... you know ... and the ability was always there. Howcome they didn't write? howcome they didn't get published? It's part of this development or ability to come out from ... I don't want to use the word oppression ... but that's what it was ...
S: Uh-huh.
CM: There is such ......
EA: ... there were other factors that were keeping these things down ... it's to the point now where they can't keep us down. Candidates ... you know ... hey, we don't have the money that they have ... but they can't keep us quiet anymore and they can't keep us out of the process. Now we may not win but we're making tremendous inroads into the process. And it's ... that's the same thing that's been happening ... like the Doctor was saying ... since late '50s ... '60s ... '70s ... 'cause ....
S: Uh-huh.
CM: There is a historian who says that history has been used to oppress people. And this ... indicating American society. And only through historical awareness can one be liberated. And this is a step in the right direction. What you all are trying to do out there. Whether we are boxed in ... whether ........... we're moving in the right direction.
S: Yeah ... it has to be done in the right way. Because we don't want to end up like the situation in Ireland ... where you end up with 2 camps hating each other. And a lot of that is based on history. And continually reading the history of way back there and the anger that comes out of that. So ... it has to be done in the right way.
CM: That's the reason for the input you're requesting. And I think it's also very, very positive. Because in the past though how many times were any of the parties even consulted? What would you like to see in a display in a museum or a place such as yours? Very seldom were we consulted. And this is another step in the right direction. Well, what do you think? ........ El Paso ... Edinburg ... San Antonio to say the least is not here.
S: Uh-huh.
EA: I was trying to tell somebody the other day ... Do you Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
3
know what it's like to live in a set of barracks where 12 ... 14 families lived ... and shared a common bathroom ... shower room ...? ............ ... you know ... I mean ... the impact ... the consequences of that experience have to be tremendous ... emotionally ... socially ... psychologically ... I don't know what they are ... but I know that they are real. And how do we depict that and say ... These people went through that experience? You haven't ... you need to know that they went through that experience and that has to affect who they are ... and how they are ... and why they are ... the way they are.
S: And these were barracks out here in the ... for the farm workers?
EA: ..... Out there for the farm workers and these were not for farm workers ... these were the barracks for the Union Compress and Warehouse Company right downtown Littlefield ... you know. Where the big Union Compress was. They haven't been gone for maybe 12 years ... 13 years maybe? They were still there up til 15 years ago. They need some photographs of it.
CM: .... highly recommend besides this 1967 up to the present ... just by seeing the last couple of minutes on your tape ... on your video ... on labels ... if you look at the different opinions that different people had regarding Mexican-Americans ...... and really none of them had it correct ....... ... you Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
4
need ... I heard someone say ... Well, I've gone back to the word Chicano ... or things of that sort ... but if you take into account that Chicano is the only label that we as Hispanics have given ourselves ... no one gave it to us ...
EA: Uh-huh.
CM: ... right? ... everyone knows that ....... by the State of Texas ... Tejanos ... was either given to us by the Census Bureau ... Mexican-American ... Latin-American ... or a thing of that sort ... or given to us at the junior high ... elementary school ... or whatever level ... Chicano is the only label that this group ...... People that we asked for something different ... gave one themselves ... and you look at what the label Chicano implies ... I must say I never liked the word ... at my age ... but now after studying and so on in this specialty ... there's a professor who says that a Chicano is an Hispanic ... a Latino ... a Mexican-American ... one who has made it in society socially ... economically ... politically ... has not forgotten his roots. He continues to work for the betterment of his people. And in the long run the entire population will benefit. What a beautiful definition. And he ..... make aware ... or make people aware of the definition of a Chicano ... I would suggest to you that all people ... all Hispanics would proudly accept the label.
S: And you would like that for the label?Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
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CM: The evolution of the labels ...we worked through this Tejano ... then went to ... for many years regardless whether we were Mexican-Americans ... Latinos ... Mexicanos ... well, we were always Mexicans ... maybe we didn't cut it ... okay? And up until I say December 7, 1941, when they attacked Pearl Harbor, everything changes ... all of a sudden they loved us.
EA: We're Americans.
CM: We were Americans. The war is over we were back. By 1967 it was ... Hey, enough is enough. We have to show the evolution. The origin of let's say the LULAC groups ... there were many cases where they tried to reject the Hispanic culture. They would try to assimilate ... that only through the English language ... maybe so ... maybe only through the English language can we get ahead ... rejecting our Hispanic culture. So again this has to be brought up. We went from again .... in Texas ... Tejano ... Mexican-American in '45 ... .........
EA: It doesn't mean ......
CM: ... Latin-American ... it's a ......... again ... we have to show the progression ... the chronological order in which the label was used by certain people. You take for example ... why Mexican-American? ... what is most important to the people ... the Mexican-American people? ... is it culture? ... or nationality? ... one prizes culture over nationality. Now let us say ... I use this as an example ... here in the classroom Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
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we have a big chain of grocery stores here or supermarkets ... now one ..... flies this gigantic American flag and they happen to sell the best tortillas in town ... when the Chicano gets out of his car to go buy some tortillas ... does he get out of the car and say ... Look, the flag. ... or does he run and get his tortillas and forget the flag? The primary focus is the tortillas because of his culture ... not that he's going to forget the flag ... but ......... But again ... you have to show what is important. And you can do that with television ... you push a button and we'll have up there the chronology of the events of how ........ ... how the Census Bureau used different labels ... how they determined who was an Hispanic ... and bring it up to the present. Today it was not mentioned there on the video. Or somehow or another they're saying that the most important label for us to use is Latinos ... again .. the Latino community. That implies language. We ........... But again it is so encompassing ... that it does not fit the Mexican-American. But first we're going to have to decide who we are ourselves before we can ask the Anglo to ... to ask him to identify us or to accept the label.
S: Do you think at the introduction to this exhibit it might be good to have what you just told us?
CM: Oh, absolutely. 1967 ... start with 1967 ... ....... and along with that sort of digress. Okay ... the evolution Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
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of who we are.
S: Of the different terms. What ... our exhibits at the Institute have large signs above them ... you come in and there's Belgian ... Irish ... Swiss ... what sign would you see above this particular area?
CM: A big question mark. A big question mark.
S: So ...
CM: It will ... actually ... I tell my classes this way ... this being a Chicano class ... these are Mexican-Americans ... and I said I'll tell you the first week of the semester ... Who are you? or what are you? I don't ask what is your ethnic composition? Who are they ethnically? I say ... Who are you? And people will identify themselves by the Chicano or whatever. I said I didn't ask you what your nationality or what your ethnicity was ... I could say ... I am the professor ... I am a husband ... I am daughter ... or whatever. So we always have that label ... big question mark. This is ... it attracts ... and they do that in the classroom. They ........ students. But I also have to modify it. I came from A&M ... I was teaching in Texas A&M ... this was before Dr. ..... Carazo ... president of Texas Tech ... before he left ... to revive the interest on the history ... at that time it was labelled or titled The History of the Chicano ... very few students wanted to take the class ... because of the name of the course itself. I ran Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
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a survey and that was the biggest objection. I changed the name of the course from Chicano History to The History of the Mexican-American ... (snaps fingers) ... sky rocketed ... standing room only. So again ... it's just a matter of being able to identify ourselves. Who are we? And by letting people know ... now once I have them in the classroom I've got to call them all Chicanos ... they may not like it ... but now I can identify them and give them a definition and reason ... or the basis for the label.
S: And you never used Tejano in your classes?
CM: I never do.
EA: I think it's really important that it doesn't matter what label you use everybody is going to have their own image or interpretation of what that label is. Even that older man that said ... I am ....... Tejano. My feeling was that gentleman even by adopting the term Tejano implies some Mexican pride in him.
CM: ....... pride.
EA: Because otherwise he would have said ... By God, I'm Texan. He'd talk like he got something in his mouth ... now that's Texan. Texan is not Tejano. Tejano is not Texan. By any means. Okay? So there's a difference saying I'm Mexican-American ... from saying ... soy Mexican for Americano ... you know ... you'll say Americano ... but I'm not American. Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
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Yo soy Mexicano ... yes ... but I'm not Mexican ... you know. But it takes a tremendous effort to define ... what do you mean by the term "American." Does that mean you have to be born here? Does that mean you have to ... that you are totally, totally assimilated into whatever American culture may be? That gentleman was certainly not totally assimilated into Texan culture ... he was very much Mexicano ... he can't help but be Mexicano. But yet because he thought the term Mexican-American may have some kind of connotations ... he didn't like that ... Chicano certainly had connotations ... he may not like that ... he thought Tejano expresses who I am. But that may mean something to him that is entirely different from what you mean by Tejano Exhibit. So labels ... labels are always going to be a problem.
S: Uh-huh.
EA: Anytime we use a label we may have to do what Doctor Martinez was saying here awhile ago ... put a parenthesis and define it ... what you mean by Chicano.
CM: Even in the questionaire that you were having out there ... we had the same thing ourselves ... in the Census Bureau ... in this "other."
EA: And Other.
S: And Other.
CM: That's a ... ........ are you comfortable with that? Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
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.........
S: What ... Did you look at the ... did you get a chance to look at the ... the plan of the exhibit upclose ... during the break?
CM: Yes. .......... I did ... I was sitting pretty close to the coffee and the gentleman was showing it to us.
EA: Interestingly enough what you said was ... you know ... the over emphasis on the Colonial ... if this is going to be a Tejano exhibit ... you know ... the over emphasis on Colonial takes away from what is really Tejano history and that's at a certain point in Texas-Mexican-American history in this area.
S: And you think we've given too much space to the Spanish-Colonial?
EA: In proportion.
CM: Yes, sir.
EA: I'd like to see a lot more space given to everything ... but from what you have proportionately it's clearly too much for Colonial because the Colonial history is a much more ... you can correct me on this ... but it's a much more fixed history as opposed to what we're trying to clarify here that has not been written. Colonial history has been more precisely written up in the history books. Even though there's some problems and some gaps. But there's a lot more lack of history and lack of understanding of the other period ... so I think the emphasis Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
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is wrong in the way it's drawn proportionally, myself.
S: The other themes being family, work, community life ... what do you think about those? Now those are more or less contemporary ... the three of those. Do you think ... do you have that ...
EA: I thought family and work and community life were much more important than the contemporary home with an altar. I mean people's lives certainly through what I experienced in the '50s and '60s and '70s revolved around the work and their family. And their families always travelled with them to the work site. And from the work site the whole family moved their whole ... they may have a base somewhere but too many of our families moved with their whole family and all their belongings to another work site ... so ... you know ... so much of our history is intertwined with the jobs that we have had to do. I think that certainly is a major, major part of the exhibit. Much more so than a home with an altar. Now that may exist somewhere in some of the well-established homes in San Antonio or in the Valley ... but not for West Texas Chicanos.
CM: ....... migrants they were coming here.
EA: Certainly ........... They may have carried their santos with them or crucifix ...
CM: Yeah.
EA: ... or some religious symbol because they never ceased Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
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being religious people. And they never ceased being working people. And they never ceased being family. But it was a ... it was always a motion kind of thing ... you know ... they were here for awhile and then on to ... you know ... Colorado and then from there where ever the migrant patterns were.
S: Are there things in community life that you would definitely include?
CM: You ...... there are some of the social functions.
EA: Revolving around family.
CM: Around family ... absolutely.
S: Like Mr. Romo was mentioning the Diez y Seis ...
CM: Diez y Seis.
EA: Yeah. That was never forgotten no matter where they were.
CM: But it was more than just celebration though. It was also bringing people together. I'm sure that the background ... the ideas ... let's say the pride in the Mexican independence movement. But the main factor is bringing people together. There's a reason for the baptisimos and compadres and all of that good stuff ...
EA: Right.
CM: .........
EA: That's what I mean ... they certainly knew how to celebrate the great events in people's lives ... birth of a child ... Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
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the baptism of a child ... the first communion of a child ... the wedding of children ... the birth of grandchildren ... the death of someone ... and even if they were not blood-related ... if they were part of that so-called community ... that may have been travelling together ... they all joined in these celebrations ... because they were family ... in a much broader sense of the word ... that was their community is those folks that were around them. I don't think that the people that I remember seeing move in to Littlefield over a period of time ... let's say from the period around ... I would say August through February ... I mean hundreds of trucks moved in to the community of Littlefield ... they did not become part of the community of Littlefield by any means ...
S: Even in the churches? Did they go to the church there?
EA: Ha. That's another story. They did participate to some degree but the priest was no more helpful in allowing them to be part because there were some vestiges of discrimination ... in my opinion ... I saw it myself ... I mean I could name names of priests that were not ...
CM: And also the fact ......
EA: ... properly .......
CM: They would be transients ... you don't don't worry so much about ....
EA: You don't owe them any ...Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
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CM: That's right.
EA: ... any service.
CM: This is what makes West Texas unique.
EA: Uh-huh.
CM: That ... you had many families ... let's say some came from San Antonio ... from extreme South Texas ... and they had a young man ... this family had a young son ... this had a young daughter ... and here they'd meet.
EA: Uh-huh.
CM: So now instead of breaking up a family ........ also they'd .......... ... but now they decided ... Well, let's stay ... no sense in losing our daughter ... losing our son ... they would just stay here. They started establishing roots in the community. And it is after they had established roots that they had churches like this that started catering to the people that now are staying here. But even with all the churches there still was the church ... the Mexicans had a town ... maybe on the other side of town. I did some research ... I was one year history ...
EA: We still have it.
CM: Yes.
EA: Still have it the same.
CM: I was a visiting professor in Corpus Christi State University ... one of my colleagues ... he was a professor there Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
Tom Shelton (Tape 2 of 2)
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... he was from New York ... some place in New York ... upper New York state ... and he claimed to have been a Catholic back in New York state ... well, when he came to Corpus Christi there were just too many Mexicans worshipping in the the Catholic church so he decided that he did not want his family to worship there so he became an Episcopalian. The closest thing that he could find. Even again within that ... the same thing applies to the Protestant churches here in town ... we want to proselytize ... you know ... this concept of evangelical Protestantism ... we want to make you this here ... bla ... bla ... bla ... or you worship there ... you worship here. Even today mind you ... you take a look at some of the churches ... some of the big Protestant churches here in town ... they have the Spanish Department. And once the Spanish Department becomes too big and seems to be threatening the establishment they buy you a little building up here on the North Side of town ....
EA: They give you your own ......
CM: ... ....... there you go ... absolutely correct. They give you ................ and they go out there and build themselves ................. And this is a standard pattern here in West Texas.
EA: And it holds true with Catholic churches who still have ...Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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CM: Yes.
EA: ... Sacred Heart ... ............ You have ....... Guadalupe and St. Joseph's in Slaton. And you have ... even here in Lubbock you still have churches that are identified as "the Mexican church" as opposed to ... you know ... ........... Even though there is innovation taking place ... what I'm saying is ... that separation started 'way back when the inclusion was far from being complete.
CM: ....... It's still there.
EA: But the migrancy certainly complicated any kind of service the community could provide to these families ... or any kind of services the churches could provide to these families. But I remember moving from New Mexico where we were active in church and did not know that there were two churches ... or two sides ... and you sat in the back ... and you sat on this side ...
S: Was it a Spanish language church in New Mexico?
EA: Uh ... I think it was probably mixed. New Mexico is a much ......... ... you know ... we speak half a sentence in English and the other half ........ in Espanol ... you know. That's just the way it was ... we were pretty ....... both languages ... my parents were pretty ....... both languages ... and all our neighbors were. But you come to Littlefield and we say ... Oh, here's ...... ... that's where we're going to to. We didn't ask ... Are we allowed? ... we just knew it Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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was our church ... if there was a Catholic church ... by gosh it was our church. And we were going to go. But there was not the welcome that should have been for any Catholic ... that should be welcome in any Catholic church. Migrants on the other hand who had had worser experiences than I had had would come and say ... the first thing was ... Would they let us? ... Will they let us go to this church? Now it's a question that should never have been asked ... if things were alright ... obviously they were not alright. Because they had to ask ... Is it okay for me to ... you know ... go past this certain block? ... or Is it okay for me to go into that church? Obviously even our church .........
S: How well were they received even in the Spanish language churches?
EA: I'm not sure that I could speak to that ... I don't know that there were Spanish language churches at that time. CM: You're talking about Catholic or Protestant?
S: Catholic. I mean the sermons ... I assume that the sermons were in Spanish.
EA: ....... you might know more about that ......... (Spanish) ..........
Jose: .............
EA: But this was St. Joseph's ...........
Jose: I really didn't ... colored people ..... big weddings Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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...
EA: ... of a Hispanic identifiable people ...
Jose: ... white people ........
CM: ........... West Texas.
S: Uh-huh.
CM: But it's still very much around though. I always make a joke here about the ... racist still very much alive ... where you have the school ........ surrounding area ... and you drive into where you would to get a cup of coffee ... the Dairy Queen ... ....... ... and you should see the people watching ... you wonder ... Should I go into there?
S: Even today?
CM: Even today. Even today mind you.
EA: I think even ... I'm sorry ...
CM: But you try to do that to ...... condition those people are in ... you try to do that to one of my kids ... ..... walk in ... they don't even look at ..... ... they don't even notice it. And some of them was to ever tell them something .......... because again the difference in age ... the difference in the ...... ... the awareness let us say ... awareness. .......... very, very much alive.
EA: An interesting point in this area that you're talking about ... go to ... now I can tell Dr. Martinez ... go to 72nd ... 79th and Frankfort ... 79th and Schley ... and he can fly right Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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over there and know exactly where it is. But tell somebody in South West Lubbock ... say ... Come over to North 1st and Gary ... or North 1st and Detroit ... they wouldn't know how to get into this community. I dare say ...
CM: Of course ...
EA: ... a large, large percentage ...
CM: The first time I came to this ...
EA: ... have never been here ... never been to ....... ... never been to ............
CM: Never.
EA: You know ... you ask somebody ... Go ... let's meet at Mt. Gilead Church ... you know ... I don't know what percentage ... but it's a very high percentage has no idea where Mt. Gilead might be. Or even St. Joseph's ... that is one of the oldest churches in town ... if it hadn't been for the tornado in 1960 ... even a greater percentage wouldn't know where St. Joseph's Church is ... the tornado helped bring some people over here to see what had happened to one part of our town ... that they didn't know even existed up 'til then.
CM: But you know ...
EA: So it's a ... it's still an unknown area because there has been that kind of division. And it's that division that started from way back when ... that's part of the history of this town.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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CM: This is very ... even ... this is what? ... the second time I've been here ... and again I had to refresh my memory ... I had to look at the map ... It's a hundred percent correct. ............ now where would that be? ... very, very traumatic. I never though about ............ anybody tell you ... go out there from 82nd ....... no sweat.
EA: Now these folks over here can go over there a lot easier that those folks can come over here and find this community.
CM: That's right.
EA: Or even harder to find some Parkway or Cherry Point or Manhattan Heights or ... it's got a beautiful name but I dare say 99 percent of the people in South West Lubbock couldn't find Manhattan Heights even after you'd given them ... because that's the kind of divisions that still exist. And that's the history that we're still living. And so if you're talking about Tejano history ... where did we come from and what caused those divisions and those differences? ... we're still living some of those. And that's why ... what the professor says ... that we have to start with the '60s and carry it forward ... maybe for another 20 years or so from today.
S: Well, Dr. Martinez, have you studied the 19th century much? the land situation?
CM: Here?
S: Well, in South Texas. Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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CM: Oh, in South Texas ... yes.
S: Do you think that should be included ... the ...
CM: You're talking all the way ....
S: ... the way ... Hispanic families losing their land in the 19th century?
CM: I don't think that that should be ...
S: How much of a ....
CM: ... the loss of land in South Texas ... or in Texas period ... the basis for the arguing that the Mexican-American people ... or the Mexican people ... Tejanos ... had some claims to land was based on the Treaty of 1848. ....... the Treaty one of the provisions of the Treaty that ended the Mexican War was the respect and allowing to continue owning your land. But the Mexican-American people here in Texas had become Mexican-Americans prior to 1848 and therefore they were not covered by the Treaty of Guadalupe de Hildago. So this ... I don't think that this should be the emphasis. In South Texas the emphasis should be ... ........... ... the area from ... let's say what we call the Rio Grande Valley. My manuscripts .......... We have people that moved in. They saw the potential of the citrus industry. But if it had not been for the Mexican Revolution that will displace thousands of Mexican people into that Valley ... the citrus industry would have never taken off ... as fast as it did. The pioneers ... my ... I Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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wrote my family history because of that ... my family came from the city of .......... and my grandfather passed away ... he was 96 years of age ... and I wrote a real pretty story for the newspaper ... the Early Morning Star ... it was not printed. On the obituary they focused that ......... was 96 years old ... had come from .......... ... had so many children ... grandchildren and great-great grandchildren ... see ... the only thing he was able to do ... mind you ... and knew how to do ... was make babies ... that was the emphasis. About 2 ... a week later or so the headline lines ... Early Morning Star ... Harlingen, Texas ... Valley pioneer dies ... that he had done this in the Valley for the citrus industry. My grandfather and my uncles happened to make this guy the wealthy man that he happened to be. All the citrus trees that this guy claimed ......... were grafted ... from my uncles ... so the pioneers ... not to say that these people didn't have the foresight and the money ... but the labor was provided by the Mexican people. So again ... they have to be given credit. And you went to Edinburg ... I taught there at the Pan American University also ... on one occasion ... my God ... what a beautiful history they have there ... and this is what you have to focus. And then you look at the area from Raymondville north up to ... oh, let's say just past Corpus Christi ... the history changes for the Hispanic community. The migrants that are coming in Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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from South Texas to harvest up towards Corpus Christi ... Nueces
County ... places of this sort ... the area where they were
hijacking ... they were hijacking Mexicans from the trucks
......... you had these truckloads of Mexicans who go from one
place to another ... they need the workers for the citrus
industry in the Valley at the same time the crop is maturing
here in West Texas. So as the trucks are coming there's a guy
out there ... an Anglo ... with a big shotgun who says ... You
can't go. They had curfews for people. You had to have like
a passport. Then it changes ... the complexion changes again
...
EA: They owned something .........
CM: Absolutely. Then you moved from Corpus Christi towards
the College Station/Bryan area ... the bottoms they called it.
And the cotton matures there ... sometimes they ....
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
CM: ...... just go to the countryside around Lubbock County
and look at the cotton fields ... cotton is about yeah-high
mind you ... but look at how much the people had to bend down
to harvest the cotton. Eh? And not only that but look at when
the harvest is ready ... I mean ... the cotton is ready for
harvest here ... it's already cold. Imagine people up there
with snow on the ground ... before the cotton machines ... sure
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they say ... Well, my God, ....... my God ... you have to bend down ... lean forward ...... because ....... what do they call it? ... ............
Jose: .........
CM: My God, the backbreaking work that our people did. And then you try to come to town ... here in Lubbock ... on a Saturday to go shopping and they would not allow you to go into the ........... ... you could not go to the restuarants ... but yet they would take your money. And every store would allow in between 2 ... I think it was between 2 and 4 Mexicans at a time.
EA: Uh-huh.
CM: But the prices had gone up accordingly mind you ... the price of the goods. Where the truckero would bring in the people to certain stores and he would be given a commission. The exploitation ....
EA: And if they gave Green Stamps they gave you the Farmers Market .........
CM: ........ the exploitation of the people now ... so that has to be clarified ... this is a unique area.
EA: Part of what we talk about now ... being a welfare program ... and these people haven't contributed anything to the system ... you know ... it wasn't that the people weren't working and earning their social security and their benefits in Government Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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and contributing to Government ... it's that their employers were not properly paying their share of social security ... so ... you know ... again you must give credit to the people for what they actually did and at the same time point to the other side of the story. It's going to be forgotten unless somebody records it and saves it for posterity. I have a problem with the one question that asks about ... you know ... which individuals who made a difference ... because I keep think about your grandfather ... ...... he was no Cesar Chavez ...
CM: That's right.
EA: ... no Henry Gonzales ... or any of those big names that obviously have made a difference ... but these other folks is ... are the ones who made the history.
CM: ........ ... the micro-history.
EA: So ... the micro-history ... yeah ... so to the degree that we can make people aware ... sure we had big names that made big impacts ... but the micro-history was really the real people and the real history that they lived and the real lives that they ...........
S: So it's simplistic just to focus on a few people like that.
EA: It's very simplistic ... because you could never cover this story by naming any of these big names.
CM: ........
EA: Would never cover the history ... the story of ........Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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CM: ...... there is a book that is being very used now by museums and places such as yours ... dealing with Hispanic people ... but without mentioning the author ... he talks ... he's a good friend of mine ... but he talks about ... Well, you ignoring the fact that the Hispanic have labor leaders ... labor union leaders ... .......... while you were more interested in surviving ... the name of the game is survival ... so you're going to write a story about a labor union leader ... Hispanic ... he would be an isolated incidence. Because that other poor slob out there gave ...... more concerned with providing for himself and family than trying to go to a labor union because he knew that if he joined he was going to be fired ... he's going to have to pay dues and things of that sort.
EA: Uh-huh.
CM: And his primary focus in life is in surviving. So you cannot focus ... again ... on the impact on the individual. But rather the mass. Look at the ... many people have written stories about those truckeroes. Those truckeroes ... even those Hispanic truckeroes ... mind you ... they were just as corrupt as some of the Anglo truckeroes. They were taking their cut ... they were fixing the scales so as to ... in the cotton ... but the conditions of the cotton pickers also ... people would load up their cotton sacks with rocks or dirt or whatever. ....... there was always this ....Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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EA: To get even.
CM: To get even. To get even. The one thing that the Mexican was not ... mind you ... he was not as passive as what people have said he was. Or as fatalista ......... This guy was just as intelligent ... he took his intelligence for granted.
EA: Perhaps more so.
CM: Or more so ... absolutely.
EA: Part of the exhibit could be just on the names of the trucks that the truckeroes ... you know ... the names that they gave their vehicles ...
CM: Oh ... oh ... I ....... yes.
EA: Yeah. I think that would be very interesting because it would speak to the mentality of ... you know ... what they were thinking about. I know my wife could give you a list of ... you know ... 10 names because she lived through this and ...
S: Each truck had a different name?
EA: Name ... oh ...
CM: .........
EA: ... and they were proud of their truck and they would name it ... ah ... golly, I'm blank right now ... but it's ... but they all had the name painted on their truck. But their name had a message ... there was a message to their name ... you know ... nick-names and things ...
CM: ....... truckeroes .........?Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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Jose: ......
CM: Truckeroes?
Jose: La Pachuca. I remember my wife talking about one of their trucks was named La Pachuca ... but you know ... I remember seeing all those names on all those trucks .....
CM: You guys have completely forgotten something.
EA: Yeah.
CM: Where they had the sun visors ... remember when they had ....
EA: All across the front ... yeah.
CM: ....... Artwork I think was their names.
EA: Yeah.
CM: .........
EA: But there's a message to some of those names that identified the kind of people that they were and I think some of them had very positive ... like ... We're moving on. ... I can't give you that ... but somebody needs to look into that area. Because you're talking about putting the migrant worker's truck ... I mean a video or even a poster ... a written poster with all the names and what they implied ... you know ... maybe some fatalism but I think the professor is exactly right ... it was not fatalistic ... they lived in a real world and it took some real talent for a ... for example ... for a 10 year old to stay home and take care of 7 other kids ... you know. I mean ... Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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nowadays ... you left a 10 year old in charge of 5 kids in a home ... I mean you'd get charged with abuse of children or something you know. But those children grew up quickly and the mother ... because she had to go out and work ... had to teach this 10 year old how to take care of these ... within their means ... within their circumstances. So it's much more complicated than an exhibit but at the same time I guess the exhibit will perhaps leave powerful messages ... as much as you ............
S: Since we only have a few more words ... a few more minutes ... do you have anything to wrap up ... that you would ..... ?
CM: Whatever you do do not ignore the role of the Mexican. For many, many years ... even today 1994 ... mind you ... the labor ... imposed by the cotton-picking ... working in canning companies ... ......... nut-meats out ... canning ... HEB canning and HEB fritos ... you know about HEB? ... they have played a very, very positive role ... and it is more so the female ... my wife says why don't we practice what we preach? ... mind you ... but this a ....... ... right? ... I admire the women of this period ... look at the way they've kept the families together. The husband could have very easily have gone up here to West Texas ... pick cotton all week long ... come Saturday ... he goes out with the boys ... bootlegging Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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whiskey ... you know ... or buying bootleg whiskey ... and the wife is back at the work site ... getting ready to pick cotton Monday morning. And women just busted their behinds ... they took care of the children ... took care of the husbands ... took care of everything ... education ... the prayers ... they assured that the child knew his catechism ... they assured that ... while they were not maybe ...... digressing .... about the importance of education ... the one thing the kids were taught ... during ... as they worked in the cotton ... in the camp ... as they'd called it ... the campo ... they were taught mathematics. And the reason for the mathematics is that they would not be taken advantage of when they were weighing the cotton ... to assure that they were getting their fair wages when it came time for payday ... you pick so many pounds ... And they knew their multiplication tables ... after they said their Hail Marys and the ......... and all that ... alright ... ........... ............. That was part of the wife's responsibility. And you cannot ignore the role of the female when you're talking about West Texas ... more so than any other place in the state of Texas. They were .............
S: Do you have any ... ?
EA: I think the effort ... also the effort to instill pride and dignity and respect in themselves and in their occupation and their family ... despite the limitations within which they Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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lived. I think there was always a focus and effort to teach respect or pride. And it doesn't come out. Because what we hear is ... This is a large family ... low-wage earners ... and look at the trashy truck that they have ... and they're not stable ... and they don't go to school ... and they don't plant their roots somewhere ... they're migrants. This is the image of the Tejano that went through ... the Mexican-American that went through West Texas. It was ... they missed all this other because they ... because we didn't live among them and we didn't know what they were going through ... so you know when people talk about them being people without respect ... wait a minute ... you didn't live with them ... you didn't know what they were taught ... they were taught respect and pride and self-esteem. So it ... for us on the outside looking at ... for those of us who lived in a stable home somewhere in Littlefield and looked at these folks ... you know ... our images and our stero-types are all wet ... I mean ... totally, totally wrong. Only somebody who lived with them knows that ... that they did believe in education ... and in math ... and in dignity ... and in hard work. But to rise above themselves ... above their circumstances ... was saying that it took superhuman effort and some of them overcame it ... some of us ... my wife's family ........
S: We are always asked to go out and find the Mexican-American Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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heroines and we ask kids who they are and usually they say their mothers.
EA: Uh-huh.
CM: Always are.
S: So ... thank you very much.
CM: We thank you.
EA: Interesting ... good job.
S: This concludes tape number 2, St. Joseph's church, October 16, 1994. Tom Shelton.
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.