THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Meeting
INTERVIEW WITH: ......... Castillo (Irving, TX),
Jessie Flores (Petersburg, TX),
Fidel Flores (Petersburg, TX),
..... ........ (Lubbock, TX)
DATE: 16 October 1994
PLACE: Lubbock, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Matt Solorio
..: It is Sunday, October 16, my name is Matt Solorio, I work with the Institute of Texan Cultures, we're in Lubbock, Texas, at St. Joseph's Catholic Church and we're here to discuss with the Community Advisory Group, the Tejano exhibit for the Institute of Texan Cultures. And we have with us ... if you all will just state into the recorder your name and where you're from.
Mrs. C.: ........... Castillo, from Irving, Texas.
JF: Jessie Flores from Petersburg, Texas.
FF.: I'm Fidel Flores, from Petersburg, Texas.
..: ........ .........., from Lubbock.
S: I'm just going to go ... I'm going to ask you all a series of questions and be very frank and very candid and very open and as thorough as possible whenever you answer and if you have any really strong feelings on a topic ... just feel free to jump in. Did you react strongly to any of the exhibit ideas on the personal preference that you just filled out? And if so ... which ones? And what were you reactions? You know ... like ... for instance ... you mentioned the ... you wanted to see a professional office space as well as the migrant workers' issues or the industrial workers' issues ... things like that ... things that you saw on that survey sheet that caught you right away. Like the name ... what is Tejano? Things like that. Did anything grab you right off the bat on that sheet that you felt very strongly about?
..: One thing that I remember is having ... you asked about having a room or a house with that ... with an altar ..
S: Uh-huh.
..: ... and I remember that because I ... the way I grew up ... you know ... when I was growing up my grandmother ... my aunt ... my mother ... they all had ... so I have one now. So that's ... that is very important to me. Also the point about the quinceaneras ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... those things ... you know. To me they are very important also. So those things were very ...
S: Very traditional ... very traditional.
..: Yes.
..: I add that the celebration of a baptismos too ... because I think that's a little bit more in common ... than is the quinceanera. I think the quinceanera is celebrated selectively ... but I think baptismos are ....... bigger and does bring the families together.
S: Um.
..: I like the ideas of your 4 breakups .... like the family Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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... community and work ... also.
S: Uh-huh.
..: That probably would be a better way to develop it than do a timeline or a historical or anything like that.
S: Right.
..: But those 4 divisions seem to make a lot of sense.
S: Good. Yeah ... we worked real hard on that over a period of 3 years ... and that seems to be coming up everytime we have one of these meetings. We've had one in Edinburg ... we've had one in El Paso ... and those 4 things ... work ... community ... colonial roots and family life ... they come back up every time ... that's why we broke it out that way. What differences would you find in the Tejano culture in different parts of the state? For example ... between Houston or El Paso? Between Lubbock and San Antonio?
..: And Lubbock. (laughter)
S: And Lubbock. (laughter) Are there any differences that you all have noticed? Or that you all know about? Between the geographical regions and between people of Hispanic background ... are there differences?
Mrs. C.: Well, it's like I said ... here I see more Mexicanos ... Tejanos ...
S: Um.
Mrs. C.: ... in hospitals and offices and ... you know ... Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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just about everywhere ...
S: Professionals.
Mrs. C.: ... you go ... see them working. And in Irving I don't see that many.
S: Is it just 'cause there aren't that many?
Mrs. C.: I think so. ............ gringos ...
S: Uh-huh. Okay.
..: ..........
..: I guess I ... I haven't lived in other parts of Texas ... but as I visit San Antonio ... it's such a different cultural atmosphere from here. And also I think the political developments have been very different in San Antonio where there are representatives there are ...
..: Council members.
..: .........
..: ... council members ... etc ... and here ... it took up until ... well, about 10 years ago ... to have the first Hispanic council woman and also commissioners.
S: Uh-huh.
..: It took that long. However, I'm very conscious that Lubbock is a very young community in comparison to San Antonio. In the '20s is really the development of Lubbock. And basically the Hispanics were cotton pickers who came up here to work and it has only been in recent times ....... reflecting that people Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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are moving into professional jobs. For me it's a little too slow. (laughter) I know I can see more than that.
..: Uh-huh.
..: But because I see too many other kids still dropping out of school. And that ... I think education has to be much more emphasized in the families than it has been.
JF: Yes, and we see that in our little community of Petersburg ... you know. But before ... when we first got there ... we were the minority ... you know ... the minority ... now ... we are the majority ...
..: (laughter)
JF: ... in the schools.
S: Wow. How long have you lived there?
JF: Ah ....
FF: Since 1959.
JF: Well ... 30 ... what? ... 36 years. So ... our son was 2 years old ... he's 38 now. But there has been a big change as far as I'm concerned ... and the ... at the time ... the Mexican-American people that ... out on the farms ... now they are the majority that own their ...
FF: Their own place.
JF: ... their own places ... their own restuarants ... and things ... homes ... and everything ... in the community ... in the town. So ...Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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..: And there's not as much agricultural work then?
JF: Not as much.
FF.: No.
JF: There is ... but ... since the farmers are having so much ... so many problems ... you know ... they don't ... they're not able to pay as many people as they used to.
S: Are there any other unique features about the way of life in the Pan Handle in Northern Texas among Hispanics or Tejanos that you don't think that you might see further South? In say the Valley? Or San Antonio or Laredo? Is there anything unique that you would think?
JF: Most of the people from Laredo and those areas in South come over here to work. The migrants you know. And we have a lot of migrants in Petersburg ... that come to Petersburg ... and I think all this area ... we still have migrants. And most of them come from the South.
S: So it's still a way ... a big way of life?
JF: Uh-huh.
S: Yeah.
JF: But it's not as prevalent as it used to be.
S: Ah.
JF: It's not as much as it used to be because now we have students staying in school ... they come and look for work ... and they stay until school's out ... then they go somewhere Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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else. But they're in school. And some come and they stay.
..: ......... (laughter)
S: It's such a big place.
..: Yeah. (laughter)
FF.: They go somewhere else then they come back.
JF: Yes. They always come back. (laughter)
..: Well ... I always want to come back home though.
FF: ............ Texas ......... missionaries .......
..: ...............
FF: ..............
..: Close to San Antonio ... it's close to San Antonio.
..: But .........
S: Yeah ... that's right.
..: Close to San Antonio.
FF: .............
JF: ........... Petersburg ... ......... Mexican-Americans ... or Hispanic ... in Lubbock ... the school board ... and in all these areas. ..............
FF: Commissioner.
JF: ... commissioner ...
S; Do you feel that most Tejanos or Hispanics out here vote? or don't? Since we're on politics.
FF: Well ... some of them won't vote because they think that they ..... run for something ... they think ... they're going Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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to run ... go with the Whites ... you know ...
S: Yeah ... just to get into office.
FF: I think now they're changing that.
JF: It's getting much better. We're getting a lot of people that are coming out to vote and that's why we're having more people to win ... you know.
FF: ........ Spanish in the schoolhouse ............
..: I see the younger people ... like our junior high and high school students ... don't seem to have a real sense of rootedness.
..: Uh-huh.
..: And I am very sad about that. That either they are rejecting what parents are saying or parents aren't sharing as much cultural things in the homes. And so they don't have a sense of who they are.
..: I think it's a combination of both.
S: So they don't have that ... that sense of cultural?
..: Pride.
S: Or pride?
..: Don't have a sense of pride ... I may be tainted because I'm a social worker so I may see ...
S: Yeah ... but you'd ...
..: ........
..: I see more of the problems you know ... and we see families Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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with problems ... but a lot of these kids don't have ... you know ... they think to be macho or to be Hispanic means to ... you know ... some other negative things. A lot of our counselors have gotten very, very serious about doing some serious cultural teaching. So that they have a sense of who they are. You know ... really ... recently we got those tapes that have ... like actors ... or sports people ... that are Hispanics ... because many times people don't see that. They see that it's somebody else and don't have any identification.
S: Right.
..: And so we're really trying to build ... almost from scratch ... a sense of identity and a sense of pride ... who we are. But with this focus.
JF: I guess that would be the negative side of what we were talking about ... you know ... that they do get elected and all these things but they lose their identity ... you know ... and culture ...
S: Once they're in office.
JF: Yes.
..: That's what happened to our newer generation ... you know ... like my kids ... okay ... my grandkids that married Anglos ... now my great-grandkids are all half and half ... they don't know which way they're going ... I mean ... they're going ...
S: Uh-huh.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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..: ... one side or to the other ... I mean ... me ... I tried to say something in Spanish ... I don't know what you're talking, Grandma. I can't understand what you're saying.
..: Yeah ... language is a big .......
(mixed conversation)
..: And then the mothers ... some of them ... try to speak Spanish ... try to fix tortillas and chili ... and everything ... you know ... but then the kids ... they won't try.
..: No, they won't.
FF: ....... then the family ... how they teach them in school ... you know.
..: They want to do what their peers do.
FF: ..... teaching English ... that's all.
S: Yeah.
FF: And don't try ... and all ... those people need to speak any Spanish to them ... ........
..: Yeah. That's why ... I think it's been unfortunate in school systems that ... bilingual ...
FF: Uh-huh.
..: ... classes have not continued. What they normally call bilingual are ESL ... English as Second Language ...
..: Yes ... but ...
..: ... rather than a bilingual ... and when I was ... many years ago when I worked in Indiana ... they were really working Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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hard to get kids who were Anglos or Blacks or Hispanic to grow up using both languages. And that would be such a wonderful advantage to everybody. That all of us would learn 2 languages.
..: Uh-huh.
..: At least 2.
S: Yeah.
..: ........ That was one of the hard .......
FF: Not you and me ... we know how to speak English and Spanish?
S: No Spanish.
FF: ........
S: Yeah ... that's right.
FF: You're an Anglo?
S: Mexican.
FF: Mexican.
S: Mexican.
FF: Yeah?
S: Yeah.
FF: What happened ..........
S: I can only guess.
FF: They didn't teach you in school eh?
S: Well ... you're right ... well ... first of all ... I didn't grow up in the Mexican culture ...
FF: ........
..: ......Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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S: See ... because my dad my military and so all our neighborhoods were either Air Force bases or Florida ... you know ... Tampa, Florida ... Cheyenne, Wyoming, ... were predominately Anglo neighborhoods ... so we never had any Mexican ...
FF: They never tried to speak Spanish?
S: They never tried to speak Spanish in the home ... so we lost it.
FF: Yeah.
S: It's one of the things that I'm most regretful about.
FF: ....... want to speak Spanish and English .....
S: Right.
FF: ... and different languages ... you know ... but ...
S: And now especially since I've moved back to San Antonio ... you know ... boy, I can really feel it now. It didn't matter so much when I lived in Dallas or when I lived in Wyoming because nobody spoke it. But now that I've moved back and settled in San Antonio ... it means ...
..: .........
..: It hurts.
S: Yeah ... it hurts. What other ... what other things besides language do you think bind the Hispanics together ... the Tejanos together?
..: Love.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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S: That's a good one. I haven't heard that. That's the first time I've heard that.
(mixed conversation)
..: Love for our family. Mexicanos we just ... we're always ... we don't want to let go.
(laughter)
..: That's why you're still here ... right? (laughter)
(mixed conversation and laughter)
..: I understand.
..: ..... get married ...
FF: One thing ........ kids ... sometimes ........ ... and when anybody need help ...
..: Oh ... we're there ... oh, yes.
FF: Oh ... we're there. ........
..: And another thing that we do ... you know ... the Anglos ......... there are 18 hours high school ... ........ has a door ... out you go ... and the Mexicanos ... ......... here's your room ... you can stay as long as you want to.
S: Yes.
(laughter)
FF: And after he goes ... they still try to bring him back.
..: Yes.
..: That close ... closeness of family.
..: Uh-huh.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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..: It is. Yeah.
..: Oh, yes. Very, very ... I had 6 of 'em and I'm still holding on. (laughter)
S: Anything else?
..: Language .......... I think religion ... still is ...
..: Yes.
..: ... I know that even though many Hispanics are not Catholics still they take with them a lot of the roots that they had as Catholics and bring it into some of those smaller evangelical churches ... we see that a lot.
..: Uh-huh.
..: And so I think that a sense of religion and a sense of Godness is a real basic part of our culture.
..: Uh-huh.
..: ....... you know ... like the quinceaneras they used to have them in the church ... in the Catholic church ... now they have them in the other ...
..: Pentecostal .......
S: Oh, yeah.
..: ... other churches too ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... and when we've had some to come and ask us how to do it ... you know ... how did you do this? ... we liked it ... you know ... we we'd like to do it ...Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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FF: ........ those are the ones changing religion ... or change in life ... or change ... quit drinking ... quit ...
..: .........
FF: ... play dominoes ... or something ... I mean poker ... or play dice or something ... they try to change the religion to ................
..: I don't ............ (laughter)
(mixed conversation and laughter)
..: You can do it on your own ... you don't have to change religion ... God made us free and we can do whatever ........
FF: Yeah. Because some people .......... change religion ...........
..: But nowadays kids are born ... Baptist ... Methodist ... Pentecostal ... they're born ... you know ... they're made into the other religions.
FF: Uh-huh.
..: And because I have one that was married in the Pentacostal .......... but all of my ... I don't know how many ... my mother-in-law ... grandfather ... great-grandfather ... I don't know how many ... ancestors back ... they were Catholics ... so ... I mean ... I think I'm going to die a Catholic.
(laughter)
S: It's like my grandmother says ... You can't ... once you're a Catholic you can't not be a Catholic. You can't change Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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religions.
..: ....... (laughter)
..: I don't think so ... you know ... it's like I say ... ........ religion ...... but ... all I've done ... is my first grandchildren were born Pentecostal ... I .......... (laughter) ... I did ... he was so sick ... you know ... sometimes you say ... you baptize them they'll either die or they'll get better ... I mean ...... was real sick ... I didn't ask my son-in-law ... I just I acted like I was a priest (laughter) ...
FF: ......... priest.
(laughter)
..: If he was going to die he's going to die ...
(laughter)
S: A Catholic ...........
..: One of these days you'll have to tell.
(laughter)
S: Is he over it yet?
..: No.
S: (laughter)
(mixed conversation)
FF: ........ read the bible with his grandma ... and his grandma said ... Son, you stay wherever you want ... he say ... my mother and my daddy teach me ... this religion ......... he said ... Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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I really want you to read me the bible. He said the Baptist just read the bible whatever they want ...
..: Uh-huh.
(laughter)
S: Well, I guess we can take a break ... that was Sally ...
..: Okay.
S: She's keeping us all on time ... and we'll just be back here in ... I guess ... I don't know how long they're going to give us ... but if you need to ...
..: 10 minutes? .........
S: I think so ... probably ... but just be back in 10 minutes or whatever ... go have a drink or ...
..: We're going to continue some of this then?
S: For another session ... we'd like to ... if ... we encourage you to come back to continue ... I still have a bunch of questions. So anyway let's take a break.
..: One thing we didn't talk about was the la fiesta ... celebrations.
..: That's right ... we didn't.
..: Because that's another basic .....
..: It is.
S: That's where we'll begin.
..: ...... musica ... (laughter)
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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SIDE 2 -
S: Okay, we're going to get started with session 2 and where we left off before we took our break was ... things that we think bind the Tejano culture and you'd just mentioned fiestas ... celebrations ... okay, continue with those things ... (laughter) ... we lost our momentum. (laughter)
..: Uh-huh.
JF: You mentioned one ... you know the baptism ... celebrations .... people get together and all that.
..: Weddings.
JF: When children are baptized ... more so than quinceaneras.
..: That's right.
JF: Weddings ........ (laughter) ... weddings go on and on ... with the music and the dancing and ...
..: Yeah, I think in spite of the poverty ..... economically, I'm sure, you know, that the Tejanos being born ... do for the most part, in this part of the country, have a lower economic level than the majority of the cultures. And, but in spite of that I think the fiestas are still a big part of it. And fiesta can be as simple as just music and food. It doesn't have to be expensive.
JF: Yes. Usually ... usually somebody in the same family can play guitar or sing and you know ... so ...
S: Yeah.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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JF: ... like you said ... doesn't have to really be expensive, you just find the ...
S: People who'll donate their talents.
JF: ... donate their talents ... yes. (laughter)
S: What about the ... someone made a comment about it earlier ... the way the ... we've organized the material and the themes ... community life ... work ... family life ... does everybody like that kind of an idea?
JF: All that comes to my mind is when I used to work in the fields ... my children were with me.
S: Um.
JF: Even after they were ... right after they were born ... my daughter was ... I was out in the field while I was expecting her ... after she was born I was out in the field hoeing, you know, and I'd have her in the car ... that brings back a lot of memories like that. As soon as they were old enough they were out in the fields hoeing with me. (laughter) So I don't know ... that's the only thing I can think of right now.
S: Was that in Petersburg?
JF: Uh-huh.
FF: ............. my little girl in my station wagon and go to the field ...
JF: Yes.
FF: .......Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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JF: We didn't have .......
FF: Stripping cotton ... I had my daughter in the station wagon.
..: In the car?
JF: In the station wagon.
FF: And I'd go when I had a chance ...........
JF: While I was in the hospital.
FF: She was in the hospital. I'd get out there and take ...............
S: Um.
..: There were no child care centers or anything like that at that time?
JF: Well, if they were ... if they were we weren't aware of it. (laughter) And we lived out in the country where, you know, we wouldn't be driving to child care centers or anything if there were any.
..: See, like now they have now like the Texas ..... Council that goes around and picks up the kids.
JF: Yeah.
..: So that the parents do have the time to just work.
FF: And then .....
JF: In those days we didn't have that, no, we didn't have that.
FF: And also, you know, we didn't have the money to pay ... didn't know about that.
..: Did you all have a large family?Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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JF: No, well, we had 4 children.
FF: Three boys and one girl.
JF: And then we raised 4 grandchildren. (laughter)
FF: One ... three boys and one girl, too.
..: ........... for about 40 years ... helped raise 6 kids.
FF: You're talking about determination ... ...... I think she remembers .......... we ........... cold, and we didn't have blankets and the house wasn't ........ cement on the floor ... and we got our children ... ............
JF: The eldest was 2 years old and Alfred came ....... 3 months old ........
FF: And we don't have no heater. Just the one ..........
JF: It was what we called a hotplate.
FF: Hotplate.
JF: Yes.
..: For cooking and for heating?
JF: Uh-huh.
FF: For heating. And we didn't have nothing to sleep on, you know. She ... I mean ... ........ sleep on the ......... on the cold floor and we put our son in the middle and the other one we covered him up with the clothes in the suitcase.
JF: I covered him up real tight ... the baby, you know, and put him inside the suitcase, so he wouldn't get cold.
FF: And then ... the man ........Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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..: Because it was so much colder than ......
JF: Yes.
FF: And then the man ........
JF: ......... here, you know, that's how we made it.
FF: About 5 degrees.
S: Whew!
FF: You know.
S: Man!
JF: We didn't have any ... all we had was sun clothes ... and that's all we had.
FF: My boss man he ... and then he showed me ... he has a lot of blankets over there ... a lot of blankets ......... used for the braceros ... but he never said ... Here's the blankets if you want to use.
S: Um.
FF: ............
..: Well, ...... Texas ......
FF: That's the reason I ......
..: That happened a lot in Texas ... a lot.
..: ..........
FF: ............
..: So the hard times bind you together?
FF: Yes.
JF: I think so. Because our sons remember the hard times but Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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they don't see them as hard times ... they see them as something very special.
S: Sure.
JF: You know, that kept us together. And we share with them these things that we went through with them. And you know ... the 2 of us ... and they have never been through like this ... like we were ... you know ... because they have everything.
S: Yeah.
JF: And they always come back home just to listen to our stories. (laughter) They really ... as they were growing up they would tell us, you know, how wonderful it was to be a family.
..: There was a lot of discrimination here in Lubbock ... a lot. I remember when my cousin came back from the War in 1941, you know, and he came home, said ... Let's go and eat, let's go to a restuarant and eat. I said ... They wouldn't serve us, we can't go.
FF: Right.
..: He said ... No, but I have a uniform on, they will serve us.
FF: Uh-huh.
..: Him and another cousin .... so I went with him to Ben's Cafe ... I remember it so plainly ...
..: Where was that?
..: Ben's Cafe. It's not there anymore ...... away. And we Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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walked in .......... we were very proud ...... came back from fighting ... and I don't know what all they'd done over there ... and we sat down ... here comes the manager ... I'm sorry, but we don't serve Mexicans.
FF: Yeah .........
..: And this ......... being there 2 or 3 years I remember how ........ ... but anyway, and he said ... Well, ... he starts saying about what ......... talking to ........ but we don't care, we just don't serve Mexicans, you'd better get out of here or we're going to call the police. And they were just being stubborn, his name was ... he passed away about ... what? ... 3 ... 4 weeks ago ... he said ... his name was L.G. Flores, he said ... Well, you just go ahead and call the police. So they called the police. And I mean we was thrown out of that restuarant. They even got one of those sticks ... ...........
FF: ..........
..: Hit him in the head ... put him in jail.
..: Oh, my.
..: And what year? Was that about in the '50s?
..: A '40 ....
FF: .......
..: '45 ... about '45 ...
FF: '45 ... yeah.
..: That was '41 and when it was over ... it lasted about 3 Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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years I think. When they came back ...
JF: World War II.
..: ... from fighting ... oh, I'll never forget that.
FF: Well, the war ended in '4.........
..: They put him in jail.
..: He'd come back from World War II?
..: Uh-huh.
..: What about the schools? Was .........
..: Here, Guadalupe School, Mrs. Duval, she was the best principal we ever had. I went to the 6th grade. And I had to go 7th grade down to ...... Thompson ... or something like that ... and I said ... Mrs. Duval, but I don't want to go to that school! You know, we were so poor we had to make tortillas, now what they call burritos, (laughter) burritos ... and we would take them for lunch and I would put it under my desk ... like that ... and I would get little pieces and put them in my mouth ... I didn't want anybody to see what I was eating.
S: Yeah.
FF: ..........
..: So while we ... the next year school started and I went back to Guadalupe. She said ... You'd better get yourself back to ....... Thompson ... I don't want you down here! I said ... Mrs. Duval, I don't want to go to that school. She said ... .......... I didn't do any good ... I passed the 7th grade Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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and that was it. I mean, they got us all in one room and you were supposed to go room to room, you know, like junior high school ...
S: Uh-huh.
..: ... no, they kept us all in one room.
..: All the Spanish children together?
FF: All the Spanish?
..: Uh-huh. It was just so ... I quit school. ........
FF: ..... remember ... the ........ used to eat on the back of the restuarant?
JF: Oh, yeah.
FF: They just give us the food on the back.
..: If you wanted a hamburger you had to go to the alley to get it.
FF: Backdoor. Yeah.
JF: Back of the restuarant.
S: Wow!
JF: They couldn't come in ... not even into the kitchen.
..: And that .......... used to be right here on Broadway ...........
JF: And that wasn't real long ago.
S: Yeah. Less than 50 years ago.
..: I was born 1925, I'm 69, I'll be 70 my next birthday.
JF: My husband's too.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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S: You don't look it.
JF: He turned 69 in .......
..: I can show it ... right here .... (laughter)
..: Your wisdom.
S: Yeah.
..: ..........
..: I'll tell the kids ... I said ... Wait a minute, let me turn on the computer, it has to get warmed up, remember that!
(laughter)
FF: Yeah, I remember one time they closed up a restuarant close to .......... the men from San Antone ............ what do you call them? ........... ?
JF: Uh-huh.
..: Why did they call them?
FF: ............
..: Why did they call them?
FF: Because they don't want to ... they don't want to sell us anything to eat. Not even coffee.
JF: I remember.
FF: ...........
..: To who? To who?
FF: Uh?
..: To the ....
FF: .........Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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..: To the Mexican-Americans or ...?
FF: Yeah.
..: Okay.
..: Because they didn't want to sell to the Mexican-Americans?
FF: They didn't want to sell ... no ... they didn't want to sell.
..: So they closed them down?
FF: Yeah.
..: How come that didn't happen here in Lubbock? (laughter)
..: Lubbock had their own laws.
..: Uh-huh.
FF: But they're still going to ........ us .......... Lubbock ... in 1950 ... still ..........
..: Well, we had .........
S: They've advanced more?
..: The ......... have. Oh, yeah, they're way ahead of us.
FF: Oh, yes. Especially with the family.
..: They're way ahead of us.
FF: There's more family ...........
(laughter)
..: You mean they have bigger families?
FF: Oh, yeah.
..: How about the Mexicano? I have 15 brothers and sisters, so, half brothers.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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FF: Um. One in Dilley ........... 2 kids die and the ones ...... there was 20 ... but her husband ...........
S: Wow! That's a .......
..: That's a Mexican-American family! 20.
..: 20?
FF: And they buy a 100 pound sack of flour ....... a 100 pounds ........ you'd buy ...
..: It didn't last very long.
S: It's gone by the end of the day.
JF: And they all went to ... they all went to school ... they all finished school ... and they all went ... most of them went to college.
S: Oh, man!
..: Is that right?
JF: They lived out in the country, you know, with tortillas and .....
..: ...........
JF: Yeah.
..: ...............
(laughter)
S: Oh, yeah.
..: Did that family ... they became professionals?
JF: Yes. ......... 2 of them are doctors, and some are ...
FF: I know one is a doctor.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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JF: ... lawyers ...
..: Well, that's good ... that is wonderful.
JF: But most of them ... well, yeah, all of them finished school. And then all of them went to college. Not all of them went all the way through, but they all went maybe 2 or 3 years. And then the others kept going ...
..: ...... set an example ... like your first children ... if they set an example for the rest of your kids ... I think they will follow in the footsteps.
FF: Yeah.
JF: Yes.
..: But if they are a dropout ... from the first child you have ... the others will ...
FF: Everybody .......
..: .............
JF: And see they didn't have very educated parents as far as having gone to school, you know, academically, they didn't go to school or anything. But that didn't stop them ... that didn't keep them from going.
(mixed conversation)
..: No ....... go to school for us and ...... my grandfather .......... this farmer said ... Garcia, if you stay this year with me and work here, let the kids go to school here and ... of course, every year we'd go and pick cotton for him ... he Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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said ... when the kids came home from school ...... my grandfather would say ... You find the ...... because he would have free housing, lights and water and everything .......... So we got dressed up in our best little clothes that we had and we went to school and registered. Next day we was ready to go to school and we got to the school house it was closed.
S: Um.
..: How come?
..: The didn't want no Mexicans!
..: Oh, they closed it down because of that.
..: They closed down the school and Mr. Greer ... he said ... Gosh, don't go to ........... and you know my grandfather ... No, I wouldn't let those kids back to school in Lubbock.
..: So Lubbock was a liberal ...... ? (laughter)
..: No ... not ......... was. Guadalupe was. Guadalupe was. (laughter) Not that part of town.
..: So this was the only school that was ....... ?
..: In the barrio ... uh-huh.
..: ............ Guadalupe?
..: Uh-huh. And my husband .............
S: So you did grow up around ...?
..: Uh-huh ... uh-huh ... uh-huh.
S: And you moved ...
..: Yeah, my last child graduated from Lubbock Hi ... went Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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to Texas Tech. Then we went over there and she went to ... oh, I don't know ... 2 or 3 junior colleges over there in Dallas. And we stayed. The kids are ... they've got their own little companies of construction, they do concrete work. And at that time they ........ lot of work, so we stayed. Well, now, I want to come back home. (laughter) But they don't want to come back.
FF: ..........
..: ..........
S: Well, what Hispanic men or women leaders or even ordinary people do you admire? Or feel are important to the history of the Tejano culture.
..: Henry Cisneros. But he got into trouble.
S: Oh yeah ... into trouble.
..: Mexicano.
(laughter)
(mixed conversation)
S: How could he do that?
..: How could he do that? (laughter)
..: But he's a wonderful man ... I mean.
S: Yeah, despite ... his humaness.
(mixed conversation and laughter)
FF: Sometimes you say ...... some men .......... doesn't mean men ... because when he dies ... Oh, he was a nice ... nice Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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man.
(laughter)
..: What about Cavazos from here? Wasn't he something for Texas Tech? Mr. .... ?
..: President.
..: Uh-huh.
FF: Yeah, and then Gonzales was in the Congress.
..: ............
(mixed conversation)
S: Yeah, he's never going to quit. He's going to go down fighting.
..: Long term.
S: Take him out in the back field and finally shoot him. (laughter)
..: Wasn't he in the news ..... too long ago ... something about how long he'd been there?
..: .........
..: They think it's home.
..: The White House.
S: Oh, yeah.
(laughter)
..: ......... thank him for the stamps.
..: I guess to me when I think of the people that came to this area and the hardships that they had to endure ... the ordinary Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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woman and man ... you know ... are uppermost in my mind. Because to be able to survive.
..: Uh-huh.
..: And you think of the ... like even now in the wintertime when you have a wind blowing and ...... but it's so much more buildings and everything here ... but in the early days ... how cold that was.
JF: Yes, I remember!
..: Even when you came ... and the hardships that you had to endure and you did and you're still here. And have positive contributions ... that to me is ... that's very good.
..: I saw a sign where ......... what is his name? ... Ramon .......?
..: Gallegos?
..: ... Gallegos ... you know ... they're from New Mexico ... those people came from New Mexico. And they were a big family and there was ....
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Tejano Community Meeting
INTERVIEW WITH: ......... Castillo (Irving, TX),
Jessie Flores (Petersburg, TX),
Fidel Flores (Petersburg, TX),
..... ........ (Lubbock, TX)
Session 2 (Tape 2 of 2)
DATE: 16 October 1994
PLACE: Lubbock, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Matt Solorio
..: .......
..: Well, I think that ... I mean ... Ramon ....... is from the barrio ... .......... because here we had 2 barrios. This barrio here and .............. ... I don't know if you've heard of it but .........
..: Where is that?
..: Right there where that flea market's at.
..: Uh-huh.
..: Uh-huh.
..: ......... in this neighborhood?
..: .......... no .. on the ..................
..: On the ........... ...
..: Uh-huh ... uh-huh.
..: What are you calling the .............?
..: I don't know why they call it the ....... ... but it's a long story ... you won't tape all of that. (laughter)
This man used to clean ... first supermarket ... he would have a little wagon with horses and he would go out there and he would clean and you know ... many years ago ... menudo and tripas ...
..: Oh, yeah.
..: ... ...... throw it away ...
..: Throw them away, yeah.
..: ............ and all of that ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... so he would come home and bring all this ...
..: ..........
..: ... yes, and people would go over there to see what he had brought from the first ...
..: .........
..: ... ........ so they didn't waste ... okay?
..: Oh. (laughter)
S: That's the short version. (laughter) ........
..: ..........
..: I think they used to throw the menudo too.
..: Yes ... .......... oh, yes. ......
(mixed conversation)
..: And now we eat everything.
S: Now it's almost a delicacy.
..: Yes.
..: .............
(laughter)
S: Well, that one ... what about events? What are important events in Tejano history that you all feel like we should Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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include? You all know about the Alamo of course. That's been done to death but you know. Other things Diez y Seis ... Next!
..: ...........
S: Just important historical events that have made an impact on the history of the Tejano culture.
..: Well ... I think education ... that made a lot of difference. I mean the advances that we have nowadays.
S: Desegregation of the schools?
..: We're still fighting that. (laughter)
S: Yeah.
(mixed conversation)
..: And ........ ........ what is that name?
..: Oh, .......... yeah.
S: I don't ......
..: And the housing.
..: Yeah ...housing.
S: Oh yes.
..: What did she say we're still fighting?
S: What we're trying to do in the new exhibit that we didn't do in the old one is in updating the techniques for displaying a lot of the information in the exhibit is to use a lot of high-tech type of equipment ... computers ... computer program software where you can actually sit at a keyboard station and access or summon types of information on different subjects Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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or different topics. How do you all feel about that? High-tech approach. Rather than ... you know ... just pictures or text on a wall?
..: Well, I think that's what's coming. You know that's the future for us ... all this new computers and 'cause even little children ... I mean ... they use those ...
S: Uh-huh.
..: So I think that's going to be what everybody's going to be using.
..: ............. computer language. (language)
..: .........
..: ....... 3 and 4 year olds.
S: .........
..: Uh-huh.
..: Even though we don't know how to use them but I think it would be ... I won't be around too long so I guess kids ......... (laughter)
S: Well, we're not going to ... that's not going to be the only thing that we're going to use ... we're going to have the traditional ... we're also going to use traditional techniques like manikins and scenes and photographs and text but .......... interactive ... software. What do you think .....
..: Yeah. I think the visuals have to be still be very big because if you think of the number of people that are not literate Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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...
S: Yes.
..: ... that also can learn and would learn a lot from other .........
S: Right.
..: You can't forget those people.
..: Uh-huh.
S: Precisely.
..: Another thing on this ... it seems to me ... I don't know in comparison to all the other exhibits that you have ... that it ... I know that when we were there a year ago or so ... that each display was given so much space I guess ...
S: Uh-huh.
..: ... and if the Tejano area is going to be just an ordinary space as compared to the Polish or the Slavics etc ... I don't know that that's real kosher ... (laughter) ... or real good because I think Tejanos ... as we've come to define it ... are so .......... ... you know the percentage in the population ...
S: Uh-huh.
..: ... and so I think that that should be taken into account so that you don't try to squeeze so much into the same amount of space as the Polish population or others because Tejanos ... percentagewise we have a lot more.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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S: Good point. That is ... Right now the Tejano area is the second largest space on the floor.
..: But the other largest is ........
S: Native American area.
..: Indios.
S: Indios. That's the largest by about 3 or 4 hundred square feet more. But ... yes ... that is a good point. It's one of the reasons why it's going to ... we're focusing on this area first before we move to other areas too ... because it is such a large representative. What do you think the message of the exhibit should be? What would you like to come away from the exhibit feeling like you learned? ..: That there is progress from being here to look where we are. You know. And we're still going. Like you said awhile ago ... we're still fighting ... we're still ... and we're not going to stop fighting for things that are best for our culture ... for our families ... for ... for all of us.
..: In other words we're still too far behind.
(laughter)
..: No ... we're not that far behind but ...
S: Still behind the Afro-Americans.
(laughter)
..: I think a sense of ... if I've gone through some of that I would want to come away with a strenghtened pride and a sense Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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of identity of who I am. Also I think a sense of struggle but celebration ... a kind of ...... things together.
S: Do you think this exhibit will have a different effect on Tejano and non-Tejano audiences? Do you think that there should be a different effect between the way that the Tejano ... Tejanos view the exhibit and the way non-Tejanos or Anglos or ... African-Americans view the exhibit?
..: Tejanos would identify with it ... ....... learn from it.
S: Uh-huh. That's ... could you say that again?
..: I said we as Tejanos would identify with it whereas others would just learn from it.
(laughter and mixed conversation)
S: What about ... oh, well ... one of the things that we were thinking about when we developed the concept for the exhibit was making it bilingual ... both in English and in Spanish. Do you think that's necessary? Do you think that's important? And if so why?
..: I would say it was important because our viewers would I think would understand it better ... some would understand it in English ... maybe that would be a .......... Whereas like for us here you know ... we would identify with it more in Spanish ... so to me it would have to be in both languages.
..: ...........
..: ...........Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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..: I think ... I would like it in both languages. Because I think that that's one way the culture's conveyed is by language. Once you forget the language ... that culture's dead and so that's why it makes me very concerned when we don't keep up the Spanish. So both ... and also I think if we could have more audio than ... like when you go down to Carlsbad they have those things that ...
S: Uh-huh.
..: ... you can hear instead of having to read as much ... I think that's a real good way to learn from it. Because many more people will be able to hear than to read.
S: Read. Okay. That's true ... everyone knows how to speak or understand English but not many ... or less know how to actually read the language.
..: Right. Either English or Spanish.
..: Uh-huh.
..: ...... when my sons calls ... calls for me from his carphone when he's going off somewhere ... and he says ... Today I'm flying to Tennessee, Mom. I say ... Howcome you have to go way over there? Because we need ... a Mexicano like me that can speak English and Spanish! (laughter) And so he calls and he says ... Thank you, daddy, thank you so much. (laughter) For having taught us both languages. So that makes us really proud for him to say .........Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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..: Uh-huh. Thank you.
..: When they sent him to Mexico City he said that another Mexicano from Austin ... ....... speak Spanish ....
..: He went to people down there and that both of them were Mexican-Americans and they sent them down there, but he was the only one that could do it because the other one couldn't speak Spanish.
S: What does he do?
..: He works for Fleming Foods and he trains people for them ... all over the United States and also ..... Mexico City ......
S: Uh-huh. Customer service ...
..: Yes. Marketing
S: Technician. Marketing, yes. That's it. My wife does something like that for Federal Express.
..: Yes ... hers is more ... his is ... he's a marketing specialist. At least that's what he said.
..: ............
S: Well, what do you think you all want people to know about Tejano history and about the culture? What's a most important thing? Is it the religion or the struggle?
..: I think ..... that we don't have to ...... that the sense of family and togetherness I think is ... is a sense of .......... that we've talked quite a bit about.
..: Uh-huh.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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..: That's an overriding theme. Plus work.
(mixed conversation)
..: Work, work, work.
..: Work oriented.
..: The nicest thing that my son said ... Thank you, daddy, for teaching me to work and to be proud of it. (laughter) Even though he was out in the field. (laughter)
S: Well, we only have about 5 minutes left ... but is there anything that we haven't discussed that's been on anybody's mind ... or that you think is important and you want to talk about? That you would like to see in the exhibit or you wouldn't like to see in the exhibit?
..: Well, I'll be going to San Antonio and I'll go visit.
(laughter)
S: Please do.
..: .....
S: Please.
..: ........ the connection and rootedness on to Mexico? Do you think that should be .........?
..: I think so. I think so because ...
S: Um.
..: I don't we've said much about that.
..: In my ... in my ... my grandmother from my daddy's side was from Mexico and my grandmother from mother's ... my mother's Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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mother was from Mexico ... my grandfather was from Spain ... Spanish ... but it is ... you know ... there is a need to identify with being from there also.
..: We all love Mexico because that's where we came from.
..: My mother's daddy was from Spain. He came to Mexico .......... that's the reason I've got the crazy lesson.
..: What's the crazy lesson?
..: ..........
..: What is it?
..: .............
..: .............
..: Can you .............?
..: He was born in Mexico. He's from ........
S: How do you spell?
..: ............?
S: Uh-huh.
..: Let me see ... Carache.
S: Okay.
..: ............
(mixed conversation and laughter)
S: Did you ever look that name up in the phone book to see how many others?
..: I didn't find it.
S: You didn't find?Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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..: Never ... he's always looked everywhere he's gone and he never ... not anywhere. At least not in the places he's looked.
..: My father was from Mexico also so I have a little ......... my grandfather ... my great-grandfather ... from New Mexico.
S: Uh-huh.
..: But my cousin traced our ... what is it called? ... ancestors from the last ... ?
..: Genealogy?
..: ... the Garcias ... up to 1500 ... when the Spanish ..... Mexico ... brought the Garcias to New Mexico.
S: I think that was before Texas.
..: That was New Mexico ....
..: They're oldest ....... is 1500s.
..: That's when this ... people from Spain ... Spanish ... landed in Mexico.
S: I don't even think it was Mexico then was it?
..: I don't know what it was but they ... we traced that back.
..: You mean New Mexico wasn't ...
..: No ... Mexico.
..: Oh, Mexico.
..: Spain ... it was called New Spain.
S: I think it was New Spain.
..: Yeah. ........ took over from ...Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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S: Couldn't do it.
..: And the Mexicans said ... let's move.
(laughter)
(mixed conversation)
..: I remember when I was ... oh about 3 years old ... they tried to burn and ............ churches ... they didn't want any Catholic churches there ... and then the President ............ took everybody out ... from the churches ... because they had some horses inside the church ... guns ... and then the President .............
..: Was that the beginning of the Revolution?
..: No ... that's when President ............ ........ in '27 I think.
S: And you remember that when you where 3 years old?
..: Oh, yeah.
..: I don't know how but he does. (laughter) He remembers a lot.
S: Anything else?
..: You know when you talked about the events ... one of the recent events that made a big difference is the amensty ... that really legalized so many people ... people were able to be legalized under that ... ............... when so many people that have been in the country with a sense of fear ...
S: Oh ...Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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..: ... when they finally .......... and have a sense of freedom about being in this country even though they had been here forever and ever ...
S: But ....
..: ... had never had papers. And I think that's an important event ...
..: Yes.
..: ... that even in our day ... 10 years ago ... what a difference it's made to so many people.
S: That's interesting ... that's the first time anyone's mentioned that ... that amnesty issue.
..: Since like over here our office legalized like 25 thousand or so people that went through that ... and that's still continuing. But these were people that were already here ... they're not people that came from Mexico recently.
S: No.
..: It's just that they never had a chance to bring forth they're documentation and then get ... like quote unquote ... by the United States. But can you think of ... you know ... a worse way to live than to be always in fear of being deported? That is a tremendous brunt and a tremendous burden to have to live with ... forever and ever. And I think that this really helped a lot of people ... to feel that they are a part of this country.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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S: Yeah.
..: Uh-huh.
S: That is a good point.
..: I still have an uncle that ..... change when he was a baby from Mexico ... and he even served his country ... and he didn't have his papers from being a citizen.
S: That's interesting.
..: I know.
..: So he's never been able to ...
..: No ... no.
..: ... get his papers?
..: He's about 85 or something like that ... he lives in Austin. He even served his country. I mean the United States.
S: Yeah.
..: He served in the government? .........
..: I don't they required citizenship ... they require a residency. But he didn't have residency?
..: I don't think so. I don't think he had .... ........ never did want to go back to Mexico ... .......... I had 3 uncles and 1 aunt that never did want to go back because they didn't have no papers.
S: Well I'll be.
..: One thing about it for me ... something ... me ... when I come to the United States I didn't know I needed papers.Tejano Community Meetings - Lubbock, Texas
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(laughter) (mixed conversation)
..: I don't know why I needed papers when ............
what do I need papers for? ........ United States.
..: There's food ... you're keeping them from ........
S: ....... discussion.
..: I know ... I know ... really these groups were wonderful.
S: Yes.
..: We were very fortunate today ... this afternoon was especially good.
S: Okay.
..: So now you're going to have us eat?
..: Please, please, would you please let them eat.
S: This meeting is adjourned. Thank you all.
END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2 - BLANK.