THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
SUBJECT: Tejana/Tejano Historical Association
Comments re Tejano Exhibit (Tape 2)
DATE: March 5, 1993
PLACE: Institute of Texan Cultures
SPEAKERS: Andres Tijerina, Martha Cotera, Jesus de la Teja, Dennis Medina, Janie Tijerina, Mr. Cotera, ........ , Henry Hauschild, Robert Thonoff, ... Rock, ........ , Matt ....., Guadalupe San Miguel, Cynthia .....
...: economic ........, particularly after the 1870s in terms of the growing industrialization of the United States, so that's the second large theme.
And the third one would be the Tejano - the reformation of Tejana self-identity coming out of the civilized movement of the sixties and the seventies; again in the context of what native Americans are doing, what Blacks are doing and in - a little bit later what Asian-Americans are doing as well, so those three periods that blend themselves to contectualizing Tejanos.
...: .....
...: Yeah.
Mr. Cotera: I was - see that gives an exhibit by definition has to oversimplify to a great extent because he can't give into nuances and go into detail. And a couple of things that have been said I found real interesting. One is what is exactly a Tejano. Having grown up on the border, there are all types of people, I think. We grew up in - totally ignoring the border. I grew up and several generations grew up that way. The group that, to us, the border did not exist. We crossed when we wished. We went to school on both sides. We had dual citizenship.
An interesting point, is that now for a time it was prohibited in the United States. Now you can have dual citizenship. So I have people in my family that have dual citenship in crossing - they're citizens on both sides.
The whole definition of the border is, to some extent, slowly disappearing. I think the Free Trade Pact and all these things are even going to help erase it a great deal. I think that's probably good in the long run.
But how you get some of these things into the exhibit, I don't know, because.....
..: Carefully.
Martha Cotera: Carefully. I think another thing that, in terms of topics that we should not forget is the leisure, you know, the ..... the social, the music, you know the conjuntos. Boy! If anything has had an impact, I think, on all cultures is, you know, music, for example, has been so important in bridging those gaps between the cultures.
I know in Austin it's been really important. In San Antonio. Everywhere it's been very important. So I think leisure time activities are, you know, a wonderful way of demonstrating, crossing over and demonstrating, impact, and everything. So we mustn't forget that.Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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I have a bias. I would love to see a fandango. I mean, I have read about fandangos all my life, you know, and they were the most critical point in the clash of cultures it almost seems like. I mean, the fandango theme - forget about wars, forget about faminine, forget about everything. Everybody at one time was talking about the erotic, exotic, and bad fandango. I mean as an example of leisure time activity. I would love to see what a fandango dress looked like and fandango clothes that people wore. And fandango music.
ANDRES TIJERINA
AT: We have the music. We have the music. Santos Reyes has the music.
MARTHA COTERA
MC: Yeah. That's really important because everytime you pick up a book, they're saying, you don't want to mix with these people because of, look, they do the fandango. I mean it's, ........... lambada, I mean it's almost like that, you know. ....... (laughter)
...: Well, what was repulsive to them was that they showed their ankles, and they wore lipstick.
..: ..............
MC: Yes. And that they would drop - ....... , but then at strategic points, you know, they would just drop it. I mean, how do you think all these women got married? (laughter) To all these guys? (laughter) Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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...: And also that conspicuous consumption which is always remarked upon by Anglos spectators. You know, that this is a waste of precious resources in the community.
Mr. Cotera: One thing we should remember, or try to remember when you talk about cultures that you mentioned art, that art pictures plays a very important role. .... And as much as possible, I think we need to bring it in, which is an integral part. I think ... somebody once said that we shape our buildings and then the buildings shape us. Does that ...you? In architecture.
MC: Lupe, do you have something to say?
Guadelupe San Miguel: It seems I'm not exactly sure what's going on (laughter).
MC: We're talking about what you'd like to see in a Tejano exhibit.
GSM: Yeah. The question I have was in terms of what is allowed in it. I mean what is allowed in an exhibit in general? Because we all seem to have an idea of what might be possible topics or themes. What we're discussing is what historians generally tend to do. How do you periodize the period and what is it that you include in it? And there's a variety of ways. I do think that some of the themes need to be shown, for example. I think the theme of subordination needs to be shown but it can't be all subordination because that hasn't been totally the history of subordination. Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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We have had - people have been in power and have lost power, so it has to be dynamic so that it shows males and females, so that it shows a cotton picker, the urban workers. The urban experience in Houston, Dallas, Ft. Worth is very different from the - San Antonio, Brownsville, Corpus. I think you just have to build in diversity into that exhibit so that it shows the different social classes in the community and the things that come out of it.
So if you talk about leisure, for instance; you mentioned the fandango. Some literary sources say that the upper class participate in the fandangos. But that's not true in the twentieth century. You don't really have the upper class mixing in with the conjunto music. I mean - so you have to show that there's a difference there but the thing is that if you deal with leisure, you have to deal with males and females. It has to show a diversity and an evolution.
But that would be difficult as to how you do it, which period you focus on? It doesn't really matter which period you focus on, but I think that needs to be the case in any period whether it be the Mexican frontier period, the Colonial period, the more recent period - the twentieth century. I think you need to build that in so that you do have the elites, you have subordinated individuals, you have people participating in political activities. You show signs. I think you do need signs. For example, "No Mexicans Allowed", I think, even to have those Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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kinds of signs in the exhibit to indicate the kind of subordination and discrimination that Mexican-Americans experienced. We also need to show the things that we fought for, like maybe, a copy of the Delgado Case, or the Salvatierra Case, indicating the the Chicanos fought discrimination and won in many cases.
But I think that the notion would be to show the diversity of the community at all historical period or different historical periods.
Mr. Cotera: ........... always be impersonated?
MC: Right now it's the whole thing.
..: .............
Mr. Cotera: Right now, ........... man from San Antonio that just did Rodii, mariachi. And that's very important that those things be included.
One other things, Nacogdoches was very important - is very important in our history. And I think it's almost - probably the only place in Texas where they systematically wiped out all traces of the culture, primary the buildings. There's not a single landmark left. And some of it got wiped out within the last 20-30 years.
I think if we can have in the records photographs of some of what was there and it could be very important to put it in.
MC: Anybody have any more comments before we ....Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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..: ..... in our area ......... Spiritu Santo Ranch ... things like that you shouldn't overlook.
... Rock: I have one other idea and .... actually it's somewhat easy to deal with.
There is an exhibition at the National Museum of American History at the moment on ......... of Mexico. It's called American Encounters and in fact, Lonn Tyler, the person behind the ... sort of the coordinator of the curators that worked on the exhibition is talking about it in a panel tomorrow morning here, and I think he's going to talk about how it was conceived and it was made.
The press reaction when it opened in Washington was that, you know, what is this thing doing in a National Museum when it looks like it's, you know, sort of a celebration of New Mexico, it should be somewhere in New Mexico. (laughter)
MC: What was it about?
... Rock: It's about the contact between cultures over time in .... using New Mexico as an example of something larger and also going into depth into the contact between the three cultures in ........ that it gave some idea of the flavor. In that sense though, that exhibition did a very good job of both trying to deal with very different time periods. And also trying to show in some critical depth the complexities and the difficulties that have resulted in the supposed mixing of the three cultures.
And, in fact, ends with a video piece interviewing some Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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30 or 40 different people of all ethnic background, commenting on just how they see the interaction, in this case between the peoples. And you have some very interesting things that came out of that. Some that were very, you know, moving and, you know closing the gap and that we're all living together and it's very nice and harmonious and some saying that, you know, some of the shame and that in fact in real social issues that communities don't really interact even in present day in New Mexico, especially in present day New Mexico.
Anyhow, it has this whole - one might look over their intent also in a way of trying to figure out ways of coming at this complexity without over simplifying it. And thereby either making a mash out of it or leaving out some of these very important things that I think we've all been discussing.
MC: Any more comments?
MC: Well, I think one of the comments we have also is that, of course, the complexity of our being between two countries and where a lot of the history that was made by individuals here was actually history that related very closely to Mexico because of, you know, it took us so long to kind of tear ourselves away psychologically and even physically. So I think that one thing that would be very, very wonderful would be something like photographs that are in that new publication, .... gosh, I forget.
...: Hispanic TexasTejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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MC: Right. Right. That new publication, there's a lot of photographs there. The other thing would be, you know, things like if we could find a uniform or some artifacts from all the women along the border that worked in the Cruz Verde and Cruz Azul movement to help, you know, Mexico which, you know, they went to help Mexico but in the process, of course, raised their consciousness, you know, right here to face activities here. And those kinds of things. So we have to interface with Mexico and then interface with U.S. history - Civil War, etc. So let's not forget, you know, that Mexican connection. Or Ignacio Zaragoza, of course, is a prime example.
Henry Hauschild: ....... heroes in our lives too, and you want the ordinary and the extraordinary.
M. Cotera: And that Mexico, continuous U.S. - Mexico relation.
..: Okay.
MC: Oh ....
MATT
M.: Two things I'd like to say, right off the bat before any comments are made. Number l: Don't think that any of you'alls opinions or comments were done in vain. This model is in no way cut in stone. In fact, it's right now in the process of being modified and your comments will, of course, be considered with a great degree of importance.
The second thing is this is not the exhibit, this is the shell that's going to house the artifacts and the actual Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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information. The cases, the presentation ... the walls which your're going to have, the photographs, the maps, the texts, the things like that. So this actually is just the shell for the exhibit.
The exhibit actually starts here at the entrance with these two walls here in front being two large painted murals depicting either subjects that are happening throughout the exhibit or some vision that ... that the artist that we choose may have, depending on who we choose, we're going to have people submit different proposals and choose from those.
Once you're inside the area, this area over here that looks like graham cracker cookies - those are actually walls, stone walls, stucco walls, in a state of ruin so that you can feel a sense of time. This is actually the colonial area. And what we do is start there and in a counterclock-wise direction around the area, go from Colonial period to l8th, l9th Centuries into the modern day which is over here. And what we try to do is take elements from each one of these areas and try and relate these architect-tonic pieces back to the information that's going to be stored in the exhibit.
The stone walls are in a state of disrepair because I took a trip down to the Valley a couple months ago and noticed that almost all of the period architecture - the older architecture was that way. It was either weathered or the walls were half fallen down and it really gave you a sense of time, more so Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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than if they were the way would have been back when they were built.
Cotera: Restored.
Matt: Sort of like the feeling that you would get if you went to see the Aztec Temples or the Pyramids. And so that way, to both give the visitor a sense of time as well as a sense of what period he's in. There's this big area right here which is the plaza area which takes up most of the exhibit floor. And that's given special weight because I think that's probably the one element in the Tejano culture which has transcended time. I mean, it began back in the Colonial period and I think we're still using them today. So that kind of links both of these areas together.
Number one - number two it can be used for temporary exhibits that may come in and out of the exhibit. We have a jacal back here. Which Andreas will be happy to hear. We have two large diaramas which depict village life back in the l8th century. We have a niche back here which will be a friar manikin talking to two small children. We have a niche over here in this corner which will be a vaquero and his girl dressed in nice clothing getting ready to go to a fandango.
Cotera: Oh, wonderful.
Matt: At least that's what we're thinking about right now. Cotera: Make sure you get fandango clothes. I want to see it.Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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Matt: Yes. We'll try and get as authentic as possible. The researchers will anyway. That's another thing I want to tell you. I'm not a researcher. I'm not a historical expert and I'm not an expert on the Tejano culture so ...
Cotera: One thing that - it's kind of hard to do comparisons but I was thinking on the jacal business. When that happens, it might be a good way, you know, of having some comparative photography. Okay, because when I opened up my textbook - and Divine has done a good job on the History l textbooks, by the way, and History 2 textbooks. But when I open that textbook and I showed all my students and I said, "Look at what the Plains people lived in." And there were no brown faces, these were Anglo people that came and lived in whatever they could put together. And that's what they were. And so they were like - "... and everybody thinks that only Mexicans lived in jacals."
And so I think we need to do - if you can dig up King's photograph of the jacal he lived in, then people can see the comparative contrast.
Mr. Cotera: You know it's ... Cortez arrived in l520, more or less, right? Within - by l530-l530 something there were some incredible, very European-type buildings already. And, of course, there were jacals. You know there were all kind of stratifications of classes, some people were rich some people were poor. Public buildings tend to be quite wealthy and handsome and others not. And I think you need to show all of Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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it. I agree with it. I don't have any problems at all.
Guadalupe: I just have two comments for that having gone through the rest, but - well, I agree with you if you go now you might see that weathered look on buildings. I wouldn't like to have that in there because I think we need to have the authentic - not authentic in today's prospective. Authentic in the prospective of that year.
Everything - everytime you see a picture where it's weathered it's because there was no maintenance and upkeep because the lands had been sold. The land had been distributed, or stolen, or whatever it was. So, under one way of looking at that is that that's the result of the ...
Cotera: Shift.
Guadalupe: Yeah, that's the shift and portraying that at this particular point for somebody that doesn't know, they would assume that's how the buildings were at the time.
..: Yeah. I see what you're saying.
Matt: Perhaps we could ....
..: ...
Matt: If we could compliment the actual architect-tonic structures with photographs of what they may ... what they looked like back then or renderings or drawings of what they actually looked like back then.
Mr. Cotera: I missed what your training was in, in sorry, I didn't ...Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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..: Architecture.
Matt: I have a degree in architecture.
Mr. Cotera: Okay.
MC: He's also in architect.
Mr. Cotera: Yeah. I was just saying I think - I don't have a great deal of problem with what the shell is you were saying. But I think in itself it does need to reflect fairly accurately the hisory processes - all of that.
In that sense, I don't think I have a lot of problem showing some things that are in ruins and and some things that are not. As long as there's a kind of a logic to it, you know, and as long as it's explained. El Paso has at least two buildings, I think, probably more from what the seventeen hundred - early seventeen hundreds, late sixteen hundreds? They're in perfect shape, you know, very well preserved.
And, of course, San Antonio has them too. The Valley is - for some reason the Valley has not ever paid much attention to historic architectures, they don't have either Anglo or Mexican buildings that that have been maintained. There doesn't seem to be a lot of value put preservation.
Matt: Well, Brownsville has some things.
Mr. Cotera: San Benito has a couple of buildings that are not bad, but you know in general they used to have a lot.
Matt: Yeah, Yeah.
Guadalupe: I would prefer to have it the other way. For Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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example you do it the way the Spaniards did it. And then have a picture of how it is now.
Matt: Yeah.
MC: ....... the way it was done isn't the way it is now.
Henry Hauschild: North of the Rio Grande, all of this is supposed to be north of the Rio Grande, is that right?
Guadalupe: Yeah. Because I was able - it would be real difficult to take my daughter, for example, to through that exhibit and then try to explain to her that that's not the way it was. Because she's five years old.
If you have a picture of the way it was, which she's going to see the walls and that's how they lived. Whereas if you show it the way it was ... this is how it was when they built it ... now you have a picture showing the ruins because people have not maintained it.
Matt: Okay.
Guadalupe: I think that would be much better in terms of being able to teach people that are going through that area as to what happened.
Matt: That's a good point. No, this model was done by a gentleman in our wood shop by the name of Sam Baird. He does models professionaly as well.
...: ?
Matt: Yeah. You would exclude, well let me think.
Guadalupe: Well, that's just a comment I have about it.Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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Matt: That's a good point.
Mr. Cotera: One point, would it be possible to - right now we have - really what this is, it's a kind of a Colonial period more in central Mexico and this a Colonial period more in Texas, you know because we didn't have the resources that you have in Mexico. But, what about some of the ........ stuff and some of the modern architecture. It could be in the exhibits, it doesn't have to be part of this. Basically it is a little bit frozen historically.
I wonder ....
Matt: We haven't even gotten ...
How do you make a transition to ( inter-talk among people, can't decipher)
MC: ... Maybe something temporary Tejano. I mean, I'm not pushing ....... Please, please, please. But I'm thinking something contemporary. I mean, it sounds that you have post modernists or whatever the Tejano architects, right now. Or Tejano architecture, you know what I mean?
Mr. Cotera: There's a modern Mexican that's very specific, in ........... probably the best exponent.
Matt: Yeah.
Mr. Cotera: And I think it's very important because it's not post-modern, it's not ...
MC: It's modern.
Mr. Cotera: ... the International ...Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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Matt: It's a very unique style.
Mr. Cotera: Very unique. Very Mexican and it's very important. He's shaped a lot of us.
MC: Maybe looking at some of the - ... said, it takes some of us, maybe looking at some representative Tejano architecture today, you know, whatever you can find in the Valley, whatever you can find in Austin and other places where architects are. ..... You know, to finish the ....
Mr. Cotera: ........
MC: This one? Right here?
Matt: Actually this right here was copied directly from a storefront that I saw in Brownsville and the same with this one right here. Now they look a little stark right now because they don't have the materials to go inside the windows and they don't have the signage and things like that that .... The colors and the elements that make up the facade are almost taken literally - and this actually is the modern part. The religious area which is going to be this area back here, this little catty-cornered room is going to have an old neo-Gothic facade. That's going to change incidentally. We're going to try to open up that area a little bit more so I have do something with that as well.
These storefronts are taken from the Mexican commercial district in Brownsville and it's very typical of what I saw down there. The cultural area which is right here will contain Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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art - artifacts, paintings, histories on the different Tejano artists and things like that.
This area right here will lend - right here in the middle which is also going to change, will lend itself very well to de-romanticizing the whole Tejano experience by - we're going to put in a lot of the organizations - the Mexican-American organizations through history that have made an impact on Texas history.
MC: I was going to say that one way that we can handle the "frozen in time" feeling. I mean, I can see what you're saying ....
Mr. Cotera: I think where you're going is correct.
MC: Right.
Mr. Cotera: Yeah, so long as you have some of the new and the old. I'm real glad you got that screen. I think it's a very important part, it's like a wooden screen back there.
Matt: Yeah. Those were were actual large timber gates that we have. They are stored in our artifact room right now. They've been there for, oh, years and years and years and we've never used them. They're from - they're called the Herrera Gates. And we're going to try and incorporate them in the new exhibit.
Mr. Cotera: Yes. The ......... screen. The screen is a very important element in Spanish architecture and was brought over into Mexico and all that. And the word for screen in Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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architecture in Mexico is ........... the word ........ comes from from .......
MC: ............. jealousy ...
Mr. Cotera: .... jealousy, because ..... screening the women .....
MC: Oh, my gosh! ...
Matt: (laughter)
MC: Well one thing - one way I was thinking that you know, that one in individual exhibits can get away from this "locked in time" thing. Perhaps would be, if there's room, like to have a contemporary .........
..: Metate.
MC: Metate, well, no, the metate is the ....
..: Molcajete.
MC: Molcajete. For example, if instead of choosing. If you had an old one, but then you had one a contemporary Tejano so that people would see , hey! this is an artifact. This is something that has been useful from cave people's time to the present. But you go ahead and do your thing, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to intrude.
Matt: I'm finished.
Guadalupe: What's this area back here, and is there a video?
Matt: That area is still a bone of contention with a lot of people. Originally it was intended to be a set that was supposed to depict a typical Latino living room. And we said, "Well, Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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what is a typical living room," you know.
So we just don't know yet. We don't know what that area is going to contain yet.
Mr. Cotera: You talked about traveling exhibits now and I think that's very important. ............ you have a lot of traveling exhibits. Something like this needs to change, you know, the time period. But I think the ability for the fixed - the shell to change over time also is something that's very important and should be looked at.
Because things are - I think the best thing about this is that we can go in that we can go ahead in that direction is going to get built. But if you build it and then immediately somebody's going to say, "We should have done this differently". I think we should allow for that to change slowly.
MC: One thing that I know - one issue that I know is going to come up and I'm so glad that you're there. I hate the historical association for not having you there, but I'm glad you're there and that is the whole women's issue. And I for one would like to see so much representation of women throughout - and women's culture and women's artifacts in addition to whatever, so that you don't have to have a woman's exhibit. Are you in agreement with me?
...: Yes. Right.
MC: Okay. And I think between the two of us we can certainly defend that. Because I think that if you have a fifty percent Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 2)
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representation which we can achieve with no problem. I mean no problem. From the .............. and by the way, we're not going to forget carpas. The carpas would be so wonderful under the leisure ...........
END OF TAPE 2, Side l. 45 minutes.