THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
SUBJECT: Tejano/Tejano Historical Association Comments re Tejano Exhibit (Tape 4)
DATE: March 5, l993
PLACE: Institute of Texan Cultures
INTERVIEWERS: Andres Tijerina, Martha Cotera, Jesus de la
Teja, Dennis Medina, Janie Tijerina, Mr. Cotera....., Henry Hauschild, Robert Thonoff,
Rock, .........
..: To ......, the iron work? To bar the windows to the new world. It wasn't as Indians, it was your husband's family. (laughter)
..: What did your grandfather have on those windows?
..: Huh? No, he didn't have..
..: Oh, yes, he did.
..: No, my grandfather had wooden shutters.
..: Well, .......
..: I mean, he had the old-time, you know what, the arch - like gates, on the window. Then he had .........
..: On this, when you go through, for instance, the walls on the right and the left are going to be different?
..: In what area?
..: In all the areas? Or...
..: Oh, through this court, where my shadow is?
..: I got the impression, for example, that it's historical and I was thinking...
..: Yes, there're going to be all different types of period architecture. For instance, this is going to be stone. With stucco. This will be adobe with stucco - where my shadow is - that wall. It's adobe and stucco.
..: Like when you get to the jacal? Is the jacal on both sides or is it going to be on only one side?
..: Stucco?
..: No, the jacal.
..: Only on one side just - it's going to be a cut-away.
..: So it's like an exhibit and it's not like you go through all this...
..: No, it's not real - it's not real ....
..: We were talking about that though.
..: Oh, were you?
..: Yeah, at the last meeting, remember? We were talking about, remember, maybe we're going to move some things and having people walk through the jacal.
..: Yeah.
..: They did that a little bit. We just went through - we went to St. Louis last spring and they did that in CoHokea which works kind of well. You more or less feel like almost you're walking through and that works.
Cotera: If it was realistic, for example, that means the floors and all of them would be different. So that, you know, say you go - let's say to modern and typical, you know, living room, you might have vinyl. I mean there's different kinds of floors yet, you know, that cheap vinyl that people have in the barrios and the boards only. Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: (laughter) You have that, too?
..: Yeah, but see, that way you feel your way through as you go. If that's the case, the comments originally then on the wall over here...I mean, you might want to - one possibility is that as they go in it's like brand new and then after two hundred years, I mean, they walk about ten yards or so you can show the...
..: Show the transition. That's what I was thinking when you originally mentioned that, is somehow to show through like - almost like a rainbow or a spectrum effect how they looked back then and show them eventually starting to weather, and wear and age as you go through the exhibit.
..: You know, this is a comment aside, but the jacal is basically a wattle and daub construction which, I think, you find in all cultures, you know, at that type level. Between LaJolla and Rio Grande there are still a few left. Most of them disappeared. There are some jacales and I don't know if they didn't have, I'm not quite sure if it was - the only place in the world I've ever seen that. There's some jacales out there but instead of having the branch and then stucco, you know, or the mud or whatever ... but they would build up out of branches and things, they would build up like a double wall and then fill it with stone, just rubble.
..: Uh-huh.
..: I've never seen that before!Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: Actually, it brings up an important point and with the jacales particularly - someone mentioned Joe Graham and I know he's done research on how the material of the jacales has changed over time and it reinforces a point that you brought up and that I think David M........... has in his book, that when the technology is available, we use it, you know.
And he goes with, you know, but now they're tin, I mean we all remember the tin shacks. That's just a modern jacal.
..: That's one of the problems we're faced with right now is there is no standard construction, for the jacal.
..: Yeah, but that has to do with when material became available.
..: That's right. And that's why we're trying to decide right now what ....(talk among themselves)
..: Well, you know, the weird thing about the ...... in Del Rio is that they were - the original ones were jacales but they were like underground.
..: The what in Del Rio?
..: ....
..: Where's that?
..: - in ..... that temporary community that Antonio Pablo went to, I mean first went to and the people lived like - a dugout, you know, so I guess that's the Indian. Part of the Indian ,too, maybe. They dug out and then they put a cover.
..: They did it in the American Plains also, the Indians ....Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: Yeah, the sod houses. The sod houses.
..: It's a fast and easy way to get settled in and, you know, and be protected.
Yeah, that's very interesting. There is now - some of the jacales I've seen throughout Mexico are wattled off, but a lot of them are not.
..: Many of them are distinct.
..: Right, are distinct. One of the things is the adobe construction, it's very tied to regional conditions, you know. It doesn't work well wet areas, for instance. It's pretty much a desert kind of material.
..: So in Nacogdoches what we saw was stony forts ....
..: Stone.
..: ... stone fort ... that they reconstructed. The Spanish and Mexican period used stone. And so we have to again it comes to the geographic house of depicting Texas, you know, as closely as we can.
..: The old church - the mission in Juarez, were precarious. Was it l690's?
..: No, it's l600 - earlier, earlier.
..: Yeah, early l600's, it's all adobe but the walls are probably 6 or 7 feet thick. Enormous walls, and they have the original beams which are tree trunks still there, all carved. A beautiful place.
If you haven't been to El Paso, they really do have a lot. Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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A lot of good buildings left from the early .......... and throughout ........... they have some good examples.
..: You said you think this ....... brings it all the way through?
..: My feelings that the ........ is how you flow through it, what kind of exhibit you're going to have, I think what you were talking about is whether you look at something or whether you can walk through it. I think how you experience it is very important.
..: And that - I want to also mention ... 'cause that thing through time ...
..: Right.
..: ... and that's a message in itself and you have to ... you know, you have to be careful what the subtle messages are and counteract it if you can. I did in a paper I reviewed ... I reviewed all the reviews of the Quintencenary Exhibition called "The Circle 1492" at the National Gallery of Art, and design had a very subtle effect in that it opened up with Europe and the Renaissance and then it went through Asia and the Orient and then ended with the Americas and now the exhibition was promoted as being multi-cultural. But it had a very subtle effect in that it was always the European perspective that you saw as you navigated, like Columbus and the explorers through this maze, you know, in time. You experienced it not only in terms of their culture but in ....Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: You were seeing it through their eyes.
..: Exactly.
..: Also, what are we going to do here? Whose eyes are we going to see it through?
..: Now, that's the point. When you go through time ...
..: Point of view.
..: Whose point of view.
..: ... and what it says about progression.
..: Uh-huh.
..: I'm not saying that this is bad, it just something that you have to think about.
..: Right.
..: And incorporate.
..: Okay.
..: Into the content, it's how they interact.
..: Something really interesting happened during the conquest is that the Spaniards brought with them a concept of living that was Mediterranean with an interior courtyard and everything facing into that, closing out the outside world, because ...
..: That's right.
..: ... this is something that you could control, that the environment is not good outside, this is ... you enclose you environment you can make that good. The Aztecs had a very similar concept. They did have courtyards, and they had ...
..: Plazas. They had plazas.Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: ... the same concept of closing off. So there was not a clash. They both, I think, look at ... not just the Aztecs, a lot of the Indian cultures around them, and so there was no great clash. And I think that's one of the reason why they adapted to each other so well.
..: But then, when the English came, you know, like for example, Sara Deutsch's study is really interesting because she talks about when the women moved from New Mexico, when they moved from that kind of physical environment, community environment, ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... into the cities of Colorado and had to deal with the grid pattern ... (staccato sounds) ... everybody, you know, vertical pattern like that and nobody had a community place, nobody had this kind of process in the communities. I mean, things went crazy. She claims that a lot of the communication broke down. The typical communication broke down. And of course I say that they developed other means of communicating, the church, the ... , you know, they developed a community outside of their immediate living environment. But they nevertheless developed a community. But that is really important. So what was your point? That that's ... (laughter) important ...
..: No, I was actually ...
..: That that's important to keep this? Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: ... actually the transition ...
..: Oh, yeah.
..: ... There are several things, one is that the legal system, the Spanish legal system, is based on Roman law, you know, has it's roots in Roman law. That views ownership of property very differently from English common law. I think that's one of the clashes that happened in the U.S. You don't ... you have, this is my lot, this is your lot ...
..: This is my lot, this is your ... yeah, right.
..: ... this is the street that belongs to .......
..: So put up the walls like Navarro said. (laughter)
..: Right. And I own this lot which means I own from a point in the center of the earth and ..... line up to the property line and all the way out ...
..: ....
..: And that's really basically the English common law. And Roman law basically says, you own the right to live here, you know, for this piece of land on the surface. And in most Hispanic cultures, you don't own the sub-soil, the sub-soil belongs to everybody, the water, the gold, whatever is down there.
..: Uh-huh.
..: Belongs to ...
..: The nation.
..: ... to the community ...Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: The public. Uh-huh.
..: ..... And so, you know, I think what's happened, while you see Hispanics adapting to a concept that's a little foreign to them, but you still see ... when you look at their houses, oh, they've got this lot where the front yard all of a sudden is the important one instead of your enclosed ...... and they started enclosing, you know, and they started .....
..: ......... (laughter)
..: ... their appliances and stuff ...
..: ......... (laughter) ... tires ...
..: They go back to the old sense of place ...
..: Of enclosure, yeah. That's interesting.
..: And the connection, that can be ... 'cause that's what Monte....... talks about how it was when the English ... when Texas became independent or became a State and then you had the American law applied - that allowed the parcelling of land ...
..: Right.
..: ...
..: Before it was held in the ...........'s family and then you would have the things like ......... where, you know, all the relatives hang around but you're responsible, you couldn't sell the land because .....
..: ...... people come in to work.
..: ... it belonged to the family. But then once the Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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individual property came into point, that allowed for plots, people sold their land, they lost the land, and then all of a sudden - then what we had was our labor.
..: Right. That's all we had. Yeah.
..: Yeah, and it ties back to also, the ownership of humans for example. Where the English common law when you owned a slave you owned the slave like property, chattel, property ...
..: .......
..: You could kill 'em, you could do ....
..: Uh-huh.
..: Whatever it ... your property. A lot of the ..... oh, slavery was prohibited very early in Mexico ... but still ... when it was there it was you owned the services only.
..: The services only.
..: And ...
..: Not the person.
..: And the individual was sold like ... so to speak, so that ... the slave could always appeal to the church.
..: That is a difference.
..: ......... there were certain restrictions.
..: Uh-huh.
..: You know short of making ... I'm not sure where we're going with these comments (laughter) One, for example, I was thinking of what perspective do we use and the second is the other ... that we're not showing the more complex realities Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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through this. Unless we deal with them in terms of the exhibits, specific exhibits. But for instance, if we think of whose perspective are we promoting here, I was thinking - if this seems to be houses, at least you mentioned this, you were thinking they wanted this to be a typical Latino house, Tejano house, a jacal is a house. That over there, I assume is a hacienda, you know, that is an elite version and this is a working class version. Now where did the workers live? Did they live in the hacienda? And where did the elite live when people lived in the jacales? I think we need to show the perspectives ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... of the classes within each of these. So that we don't promote one kind of sterotype for one particular period.
..: Uh-huh.
..: But even if we were to do that, you still don't have the basic institutions. For example, you don't have any semblance of the church, ...
..: ....
..: ... the impact of the church, over time, ...
..: Yeah, and that's one of the things that we have discussed in one of our meetings is that we don't have a common thread ...
..: Religious.
..: Well, we don't have a common thread, a common message that we're ... in our subject matter ...Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: .... and the other thing you have to ...
..: ... taking through the entire exhibit so that you feel this ...
..: ... kind of .....
..: And you have to also be careful that it isn't all Catholic.
..: .......
..: Right.
..: And so ... because, of course, ...
..: ..... (laughter) ......
..: ......... It's so funny, I found out our neighborhood, you know, South Austin, a lot it was settled ... there was a split in Austin between Catholics and Protestants, so a lot of the ... South Austin areas were, you know, Methodist or Protestants.
..: Well, the Methodist did a lot of missionary ...
..: Oh, ...... a lot of work.
..: In fact, my family converted in 1910.
..: A lot of work.
..: When they crossed the river they not oly crossed the physical boundary, they crossed .......
..: They converted, yeah.
..: ... they crossed the religious. And then there's a lot of people have done work on ....... I mean, look at now, most of the Salvadorians who come over belong to Fundementalist Protestant churches.Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: Yeah, 'cause they are very supportive and they have a lot of social services ...
..: Right.
..: But it's .....
..: ..... part of the work of the Inquisition was to stamp out the Protestant Reformation, including in Spain where there were movements, in France the Huguenots and there were Huguenots in Spain, they were fairly successful.
..: So what were you saying? Is there going ... the problemos is .............?
..: Uh-huh.
..: "To find the ....... connecting thread."
..: .....
..: So we make this a social history exhibit.
..: .......
..: Pretend it's a social history project.
..: Yeah, but how do you deal with .....
..: That's what we're trying to do.
.. Uh-huh.
..: One of things that you can do with a shell, you can use materials, you can use forms and you can use ... just to ...
..: As symbols.
..: As symbols, you know, in that sense I think you need to stay fairly historical.
..: Uh-huh.Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: You need to be accurate. But how you transition from this to this I'm not quite sure and that's ..... I think the exhibits could help it.
..: I think that's ....
..: But how the form does, that's not easy.
..: The form, I think, is going to play a secondary role in terms of how it transitions. The form is ... well, it's going to play a secondary role but at the same time, hopefully it will comment ... or compliment the information in such a way that when they are both put together you will be able to feel that, that transition.
..: Yeah.
..: Whereas, one or the other by itself would never be able to do it.
..: You don't have any thoughts here at all that are like churches, right?
..: This one right here.
..: This right here. And my ... at this point, in my opinion is that since we have limited space in terms of what we choose to identify as historically significant, I personally would like to see instead of the church, like a mock schoolroom but which could also deal with religious education. Within that ... and I don't know ... that's the way I would like to go with it ... make it a mock ...
..: That's true, but for example, again, religion was important Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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in that period ...
..: Right.
..: ... especially, you know, for the slaves ...
..: Right.
..: ... for the Indians ...
..: Right.
..: If you just promote it here again for people that don't know the history the only thing ... they'll think it was for this period.
..: Uh-huh.
..: Yeah, right.
..: You could use icons because they were very important.
..: Yeah, I see, because religion was also education for the natives and ... which brings us to another issue - that a lot of Americanos were native Texans, native American Texans.
..: Uh-huh.
..: And somewhere right there in that early history we have to address that issue. They ... you know, all they did ... like whatever they did in Mexico ... they just put a pair of Western pants on and a shirt and then they became Mexicans.
..: Oh, you didn't mean like Native-Americans in the ...
..: Yeah, I mean Indians.
..: ...........
..: Oh, yeah. .........., Karankaws, ..........., I mean ......Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: But you see, I think we view that a lot differently in that in Mexico - who isn't part Indian? - everybody is, right?
..: Yeah.
..: But it's not ...
..: Not full Indian ....
..: Yeah, some of 'em .... many are full Indian ... that's a point. That the assimilation process was just a matter of what clothes you put on a lot of times.
..: Sure.
..: And so in that respect the Missions played a very important religious and educational role for the Native-Americans that became the Mexicanos of Texas. That might have never seen Mexican soil ...
..: ... and again, what we're talking about is in terms of how you divide, what - 500 - 600 years of history and what is to be emphasized. I don't think we're going to be able to decide. Whoever makes this is going to decide for us if we don't decide. But one possible of way of viewing it is to pick - let's say the major periods you want to cover - the Colonial, the Mexican, Early American and 20th Century - that's the way I would do it.
..: Uh-huh.
..: And then within each period pick maybe the three major kinds of activities so that you would have - let's say you have a 20 yard exhibit on that period.Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: Uh-huh.
..: Okay. Ten yards would be devoted to political activities, ten yards to economic activities, and ten yards to social activities.
..: Uh-huh.
..: Now, out of those social activities, for example, you could have like an altar, or an icon, ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... a picture of a church, a facade of a church, ...
..: ........
..: Yeah, ........ or even early Protestant ...
..: Okay.
..: You see, you would have more flexibility than knowing that you would have that, pictures of the family, ...
..: Okay.
..: In terms of economics you would have the occupations, so that, you know, that would be reflected in terms of those that are at the very bottom of the economy at different points in time, and those that are at the very top. And if you had that kind of model for each period, then you would have to look for specific things under each period.
..: Uh-huh.
..: And it would be sort of creative ... you might not be able to find for each period for example, you might not really find something on the Catholic church for each period.Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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(background conversation)
..: And the only problem there, I mean, that's ... the only problem there is that you ... unless you go many times or you're a very smart exhibit-goer you loose that transition or could loose the transition. You know, like ....... to freight companies. That's the only problem.
(another conversation in the background.)
..: Yeah, you would loose that.
..: Unless you reference the exhibits, unless you documented ... like you would say ... you know, "continuation." (laughter) Refer people to another ......... If they wanted to follow through.
(another conversation int he background.)
..: That's the only problem ... I'm sure you thought about
it that way, no?
..: A couple of years from now they can always change ...
..: Change something ...
..: Which is winning?
..: Which way?
..: Approach.
..: Which approach is winning?
..: It's not clear.
..: It's .......
..: I'm talking to a contractor out of Houston right now ...... You mean for the rock wall?Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: Yeah, for all of it, I guess. Plasterer ...
..: No .....
(conversation in background)
..: This area right here is not real clear I think right now but it is - I think right now I think there's supposed to be a jacal in it and it's not real clear what else.
..: Out of nowhere or was it ............ religious thing?
..: I don't know, I don't know. I think this is supposed to be like domestic labor ... it's just not real clear .... here's 20th century but what time frame is not real clear yet.
..: Right now are they thinking in terms of doing that, doing representative stuff for different periods? Is that the way they're approaching it right now?
..: Well, it's hard to say.
..: Or representative activities and then all kinds of periods with representative activities?
..: You want to answer that?
..: Yeah.
..: Sorry ......
..: No, no, I said the approaches ... the approaches is difficult in the representative periods and then activities within the periods and then you loose the transition or representative activities ....
..: This is what we .....
..: .........Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: This has been a real issue and we've been trying to iron it out and the solution that keeps coming back time after time is to pick certain categories ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... religion, family life, recreation ...
..: Occupations.
..: Yeah.
..: Occupations. And take those categories ...
..: And community building.
..: ... and address them in each one of the periods.
..: Yeah, okay.
..: Uh-huh.
..: So that you've got this comparison.
..: Right.
..: And that, to me, is the only thing, the only way ... that's just my opinion ...
..: Yeah.
..: ... the only way that this exhibit is going to really mean something as a whole.
..: Instead of doing areas, instead of doing the other.
..: Oh, I don't know ...
..: Well, no, .......
(mixed conversation)
..: And have representative activities in each areas? Yeah? That's what you were saying.Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: ....... categories of things, you set up a set of categories and you represent them in each historical period.
..: What, what, what? Representative activities?
..: Representative categories ..
..: Areas? Okay.
..: ... like he was saying and in then in each historical period you show all the range of categories.
..: Now I've seen it done that way with references.
..: Uh-huh.
..: You know, if there's, I think, ........ did that and I haven't been to the very best, but .......... did that fairly well, where you could follow it up in another exhibit and they referenced you to another exhibit. So that if you wanted to follow a trend you could follow it throughout the exhibit.
..: That's a good idea.
..: I found that extremely ... Like one of the things that they had and this is a Native-American Mounds ... showing the Missouri Cultures, but one of the things that I found really great is like they had a whole section on ......., you know, sports and that's where I saw those ... the lacross sticks, you know, lacross has hit Texas very big. Well, of course, this was a Native-American game. I didn't realize it was also of Great Lakes area. No, this is way down in the Mississippi ...
..: Yeah, lacross is .......Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: Mississippi Valley. I didn't realize it was that far down. But they played lacross and there's a little lacross stick, you know, that they used. So they did that pretty well, I liked that.
..: You could use the ... even this part to elaborate on some of the themes so that one month might be ... let's say family ... and you would do an evolution of the family over 300 years inside.
..: Right.
..: Uh-huh.
..: It's ....
..: That's the wonderful thing about the ....
..: The plaza.
..: That's the nice thing about that area is it allows for that type of ....
..: So you can do that.
..: ... exhibits that are only there temporary, for a short period of time can be easily removed and replaced.
..: Right.
..: So it would be historic period and then the activities within. You like that concept?
..: Well, it's not real clear to me, the whole thing is not real clear in my mind yet, in terms of continuity and change.
..: That is a problem.
..: It just needs to evolve over time.Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: Yeah.
..: No matter what you do ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... the first time you do it, there's going ... probably everything's going to be wrong with it. (laughter)
..: Yeah, you know, ...
..: You need to let it ......
..: I think it's like you said, the important thing is to do it, get it done.
..: Right.
..: You know, one thing that we might do, if that is an area - is to be careful, I mean to be sure that we address the political arena, .... in a way that it's like a community building or ...
..: The only place that's, right now, and it's right here and it's, I think there's some agreement that it's marginal.
..: Yeah.
..: Because here we have a home which is yet at this point ahistorical in terms of defining what it is. Here we have church, which has also not been defined in term of change in time. Here we have a business section which is also not well defined and over here we have have culture.
..: Culture. And then we don't have a community building.
..: That would be .....
..: That is this little section, but that is supposed cover Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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everything for the 20th century. That little section right there.
..: And see, what I'm thinking is you know, the issues, the issues that are very basic to our history in this state and to the role that we're taking in this state and that is the State building, you know, place building, State building and then Nation building, but State building. For example, the comments they were making about Navarro, you know, and the comments that Seguin made when he was a Representative to the State. I mean, having something that shows a progression of participation of Americanos or non-participation ...
..: Uh-huh.
..: ... I mean it is extremely important, so that, if you had that and you had like tapes and stuff, so that you could hear the speech ...
..: Yeah, yeah.
..: ... that you know, where Seguin says, "Look how you are treating us." you know, da-da-da- and then what they propose and when he fought the English only.
..: Uh-huh.
..: You know, resolutions and the State House.
..: Okay.
..: That is ... I mean, ... and we don't know those things.
..: Okay.
..: And this is something our children ... you would be pleased Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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to have your daughter, of any age, listen to that.
..: Uh-huh.
..: That's another question. What are ... do you have a handle on the demographics on who comes to see this? Is it lots of kids?
..: Oh?
..: It's mostly kids.
..: Thousands of children.
..: Great.
..: It's mostly kids that you've got to deal with it ......
..: Great.
..: ... the written text through this thing is going to have to ...
..: Oh, yeah.
..: Right. Very simple.
..: ... appeal to these people in someway that Mom or Dad can explain it.
..: Exactly.
..: You can't ... that's always a problem ... physical presentation ...
..: That's why I said that ... 'cause I took my daughter to ............. about two years ago, it was real difficult to explain anything that was there.
..: I have a daughter that's 13 that doesn't understand much better ....Tejana/Tejano Historical Ass'n (Tape 4)
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..: Or ... LBJ is the pits for children.
..: Sure. You look at the sword that was presented to him as a presidential gift and that's what they get out of it.
..: Yeah, and who the hell cares?
..: Yeah, totally. (laughter)
..: Right.
..: A jeweled sword, this is ....
..: ......
..: I mean why, you know, why, why .....
..: Uh-huh.
..: And I think ... but I think there are things that can be broken down ... especially if you have depictions, you know, like ... oh, one of the nicest things that I saw in Mexico was ... la ... the lady that comes to plead for the life of her boyfriend, you know, she comes to ....
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2. - BLANK.