BEXAR COUNTY HISTORICAL COMMISSION
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW foliTH: Jerome K. Harris, Sr.
INTERVIEWER: Esther MacMillan
DATE: January 26, 1979
M: Mr. Harris, it seems to me that it is very appropriate that I have
you as my first interviewee on the llernisfair project because from all of
what I have been able to read and understand, you ~ number one as far
as Hernisfair is concerned. In Sue Vicker's book called HEMISFAIR· 1968 ,
she says, "In 1959 Jerome Harris, vice president of Frank Brothers of
San Antonio, wrote a letter to the San Antonio News in regard to a "Fair
of the Americas." His idea was for permanent buildings to be constructed
on the Fair grounds, emphasizing the cultural, scientific and reJ:igious
and industrial development between the United States and Latin America.
But he did not have the influence to get the idea into motion."
H: May I interject? A part of that is correct, but the idea was even back
further than 1959. My original appearance before the Chamber of Commerce,
.
as one of their Directors, was in February of 1958 ••• at a meeting where
I suggested to the proper committee, which was the World Affairs Committee
of the Chamber of Commerce, that we have a Fair in San Antonio •• . a U.S.
Latin America Fair and draw thousands of tourists and others because of
the fame of the Alamo and San Antonio. I said at that time, and this was
reproduced with a picture ... and I'm holding the original .•.
HARRIS
1 M: What is that from?
H: The San Antonian, which is gotten out by the Chamber of Commerce,
dated Thursday, February 6, 1958.
M: This is good to know.
H: I said at that time, "Such a Fair could offset possible cut-backs
in military revenue here. San Antonio needs something of a dramatic
2
nature to spotlight its charms and bring more visitors with the result
of more industry to the city. This committee was named by Mr. Givens
to explore the prospects of such an undertaking. From that day on, it
was called the Harris Plan ."for an Exhibition to include cu1 tural, sci en-tific,
educational and industrial exhibits and entertainment from Latin
American countries . Whether to go slow or to plan big was something the
committee would decide.
M: In other words, you were ten years ahead of 1968.
H: Like many things that the Chamber of Commerce undertakes, they app-ointed
a committee and the committee actually did nothing. It rocked ·
along and a year later ••• I am now holding a copy of the San Antonio News
for Thursday January 29, l959 •• • at which time the editor had written me a
letter to write a column for the paper under the headline: IF I WERE
EDITOR . That's when I really enlarged on the whole idea . There were
several people with their thoughts, various thoughts, included, but mine
had only to do with the idea of having a Hemisfair in San Antonio. This
article is very long and I don't know if you want to quote the whole arti-cle.
But that's the original article and I'm going to stop talking.
M: Maybe I could take notes from this. "Jerome K. Harris, "Let's stop
losing out as Mexico's favorite" you called it.
H: Read the whole thing. You'll be interested.
M: I' 11 do it.
HARRIS
H: This has a bearing on everything else that comes later.
~
M: Can you read it on the tape? Why not, it's there?
3
H: In this article in the News, I said, "San Antonio is losing, and lo-sing
fast, its time-honored position as Mexico's favorite city out of
Mexico. Something must be done, and quickly, or it will soon be too late.
This will take dedicated work and sincere cooperation by all interested
in the welfare of San Antonio, business-wise and otherwise. Mexico has
always been very near and very dear to San Antonio and by the same token,
San Antonio enjoyed the same status with the people of Mexico. For
scores of years, San Antonio was the outpost of most travel from Mexico.
When the people thought of a trip abroad, their first and only thought
was San Antonio. They felt a warmth in coming here; the only city in
the North, to the North of them, with enough of the flavor of Mexico to
appeal to them. A city where they would find thousands of their former
nationals living and working and building a successful place in the affairs
of the community: socially, politically and comercially. With Se Hablo
Espanol on every side, these travelers just felt at home. They found
friends, entertainment, good food, fine hotel accomodations and a wide
selection of quality merchandise in our retail establishments. In
other words, San Antonio was literally their home away from ho~. There
was good rail service directly to San Antonio, an all weather highway
directly -to San Antonio and some airline routing directly to San Antonio.
So the question becomes, isn't this all true today? The answer is deci-dedly
yes and no. The reason is that with better highways in all direc-tions,
with non-stop air service to New York, Los Angeles, Miami, New Orleans,
Houston, Chicago, Dallas, the South American cities and even one-stop to
Paris and all of Europe, San Antonio is fast losing its position as Mexico's
favorite foreign destination. What can San Antonio do to stop the traffic
HARRIS 4
that only passes through or away from it? Many splendid organizations
are working feverishly to strengthen our ties with Mexico and the Mexi-can
people ••• in fact with all Latin Ameri ca. But this is not enough.
San Antonio must do something dramatic to prove and to re-convince our
good friends from South of the Border that San Antonio still, as always,
is their most friendly and most inviting port of call. We need some bi g
demonstration; something that will show beyond any question that San
Antonio represents the feeling of the entire United States in its affection
for and appreciation of, MexicoJR As an officer and Board member of the
Chamber of Commerce, I submitted a plan which was warmly received by the
Board, by the Press, by many brganizations and individuals. That plan
was to hold a Hemisfair in San Antonio every two or three years. A
planned tract of land with permanent buildings which would represent the
city, state or organization in our nation that cared to participate and
invite Mexico, her individual states, cities, industries and organizations
to do the same. In this manner, there could be an interchange of the
cultural, scientific, religious, industrial and civic developments between
the U.S., Mexico, and eventually all of Latin America~\X This project would
require an organization of civic leaders acting under the Chamber of Co~
erce to develop plans , provide funds, get national and foreign recogni-tion
and participation and see it through to successful r eality. In these
times, when the Vice ?resident of the United States has unfortunate exper-iences
while visiting in our own hemisphere and when communism is a defi-nite
threat to the peace and happiness of some of our Central and South
American neighbors, it is high time for this country, this state and this
most Latin of all U.S. cities, to do something effective to show our posi-tion
and the warmth of our feelings. The great ambassador from Bolivia,
Dr. Victor Andrade, in a speech here in San Antonio, said, "Texas is the
HARRIS
5
HARRIS 6
H: I do, too. -·r
H: This was 1959. Nothing happened in 1960. Finally, our Congressman,
Kilday, resigned to assume another fine position in Washington and Henry
Gonzales was appointed· to become his successor in Congress .. So I was
going to Washington in 1961 and I thought if I could interest Henry in
the idea he, with his clout in Congress, could get something done. So
I laid this article on his desk and it appealed to him immediately. I
was in Washington, New York, and Chicago for about two or three weeks
and when I got back, he had gotten in touch with a few of his old friends
and got the thing organized and started.
M: That fast! In other words, when Mrs. Vickers said you didn't have
the clout to get it started, what she really meant was that it took some­one
on the national scene like Henry Gonzales to get it going.
H: To get the money. Without the help of the backers and the others in
San Antonio who supported the thing, when it was just an idea, it would
never have materialized. Then too, Urban Renewal getting that area cleared
and all.
M: I got into this thing in reading this book and there was a good deal
of hostility about that, wasn't there?
H: Yes . It was through the entire Fair. There was contention, conten­tious
people, all the way through. The first evidence was when they em-
- ~ -~ . .
ployed a man by the name of Dingwall to become the first director. He
would have made a much greater success of it, in my opinion, than it turned
out.
M: You know what I heard why he got fired? Because he didn't go to A and M
(laughter) Is that true?
H: No. He made a few judgments on his own without conferring with some
of the important people on the conmUttee. Let me go back a step and tell
HARRIS 7
you what really madd me think of Hemisfair.
M: I'd like to know.
H: I'm no longer connected with it, having sold that business fifteen
years ago, but I was one of the executive owners of Frank Brothers . It
was a very high class mens' and womens' store in San Antonio.
M: On Alamo Plaza?
H: On Alamo Plaza. Opposite Joske's. And we probably were doing one of
the big businesses with the wealthy people of Mexico. I could see that
we were slowly losing some of that clientele. And when I'd see them I'd
say, "Why haven't you been in our store or in San Antonio?" "Oh, I made
a trip to New York or I made a trip to Los Angeles and we did our $hopping
there." Prior to that, the wealthy Mexican never got further from Mexico
than San Antonio. The train came here; the highway came here for those
who wanted to motor; and there were a few flights. But with the advent
of these long passenger planes that took people anywhere they wanted to
go, at the same length of time that you could drive to San Antonio, we
began hurting business-wise. That's what put me in mind of it .
M: Do you realize that thinking is current right today? I read in the
paper we're losing Mexican business today. The Trade Fair plan didn't
work. It's apparently a continuing problem that San Antonio needs to face.
H: To follow through on. San Antonio needs the key people of the comm-unity.
This is more than a political issue; it's a social issue; economic.
Mexico is one of San Antonio's greatest assets. We're just letting it
slip through our fingers and have been since Hemisfair ended.
M: In one place I read, she didn't come right out and say it, in this
book I'm reading between the lines, she said, "San Antonio has alway!?
been a very conservative city; satisfied with the military and the tourist
trade; not encouraging industry to come in." (You mentioned the social
/
HARRIS 8
aspect and this is the social aspect.) When this idea was presented to
that group, they thought, well, history, tradition and what-not is the
key to San Antonio and Hemi~air won't damage the city any. It would
just bring people an appreciation of the history and tradition . In other
words, this is a very conservative attitude, isn't it?
H: In one sense it was but on the other hand, the Fair had many of the
big industrial displays of America here. We had General Motors, Chrysler,
Ford and many of the big national manufacturers which certainly was an
indication that industry was around and San Antonio should make an effort
to get some of it.
M: But they weren't settlin~ in here; with factories or anything like that.
H: They still aren't, to any major degree:
M: But don't you see an improvement?
H: Yes. There's a little different thinking today; I think San Antonio
realizes that you can't live eternally on the army: the military . There's
a tendency to play it down; to minimize it; to have less men and more
machinery.
M: When we came over here from Houston in 1956, my husband found, busi­nes~-
wise, that the ruling clique in San Antonio, wanted it to stay just
the way it was.
H: They wanted no smoke on the horizon .
. --. ~
M: Now there's a younger bunch in the Chamber; they're more aggressive,
aren't they? You see an improvement.
H: San Antonio lacked in a number of things from that standpoint. They
have never made any concessions toward industry. I bTought the President
of the HartE6rd* Luggage Company here, which is a big concern, does a great
business; they have two or three subsidiary firms. They were in Racine,
Wisconsin; union problems had gotten out of hand there and they wanted to
HARRIS 9
move; get a new home'. I was very friendly with the President of it; I
brought him down here and had a luncheon for him; with all the heads of
the banks, the prominent people of the community, hoping that they would
have some sort of an idea or saying to him, "we'll help you get located"
"give you interest-free money" or whatever it took or "buy you a piece
of land" or "give you a long-term low-rent lease on.~ a piece of land.''
No suggestions were made whatsoever; he went back to Racine very unhappy
and finally settled in the Southeast somewhere, the Carolinas.
M: You said *Hartford; did you mean Hartman?
H: Yes. At that time, it was the finest. I don't know if it still is.
Here's an interesting side light that I just ran across in looking through
this. I hope I'm not boring you.
M: You sure aren't. I'm fascinated. I loved Hemisfair.
H: You heard the article I read. There's where I wrote it: scribbled
it out in longhand. This is the original manuscript.
M: You write very well, Mr. Harris.
H: Can you imagine that?
M: That's the way I do things and it comes out just fine. Did it take
you a long time to do it?
H: About a couple of hours. I handed it to my secretary, had it typed,
and sent it over to the newspaper .
.... --~ -
M: This is Sue Vicker's book. You asked me what book I was using. She
did "HEMISFAIR 1968" for her Master's thesis. She gave a copy to the
Bexar County Historical Commdssion. I am using it. That's where I am
getting my material. I'm not very far into it yet but I wanted to get
as far as where she talks about Mr. Jerome K. Harris. You mentioned .Henry
B. getting the ball rolling and then following Henry B. Gonzales the next
man that's mentioned is Bill Sinkin.
HARRIS 10
H: Bill Sinkin was .1Henry 's appointee. Henry had a number of political
associates down here, one of which was Bill Sinkin, another was Bob Saw-telle
another was John Daniel. They were his three friends politically,
and probably otherwise, I don't know because I wasn't closely associated
with them. Those three got the ball rollling, locally, for Henry. It
was Henry encourag~ them to do it and I don't take any of the credit
away from anybody that worked on it because everybody contributed but ..•
M: But you planted the seed.
H: The idea for it, the name for it and all was mine. So far as the
mechanics of it, I did go out and help raise some of the money, not big
amounts, but some.
M: Somewhere it says that Sinkin got a bunch of men together for lunch
one day. Were you at that luncheon?
H: I was out of town. I was still on that trip.
M: Oh, you were? That fast! Well, anyway he had this meeting and pre-sented
this to some of the wheelers and dealers around town. Of course,
the first thing is always money. He said, ~Let's start off right by paying
for our ot-m 1 unch." So each man paid for his own 1 unch. But then the
banks went in, guaranteeing certain people's credit. But the search for
money went on . I clipped an article November 19, 1978 in the San Antonio
Light: Ed Castillo quotes something that's kind of interesting, "United
States Representative Henry B. Gonzales, suggested a major fair for San
Antonio (this is 10 years later now) something like a mini-World's Fair
to celebrate an annive rsary. But a lot of people say it can't be done.
Banker Bill Sinkin is for it and San Antonio business man Marshall Steves
is enthusiastic over the idea but the general populace is skeptical.
Another local leader comes up with the fantastic idea of a theme structure:
a needle-like to~.,er with a revolving restaurant atop the column. Many
HARRIS 11
local citizens laugh and say this is pie in the sky and a nutty dream.
One live-wire suggested the state of Texas come into it with some sort
of a museum. More laughs from local taxpayers. Then Jerome Harris,
another business man comes up with a name . Why not call it Hemis~ir
'68, he says and gets another avalanche of cold shoulders. The year was
1960 and San Antonio had big hopes, big dreams and those hopes and dreams
became a reality with the production of an outstanding World's Fair that
turned our town around." I thought that was good because everybody I have
talked to who was there then and now says that it really did turn San
Antonio around.
H: It did. Without Hemisfair San Antonio would never have had the Con­vention
Center, the Theater for the Performing Arts, the Tower of the
Americas, and the ensuing building that went on. San Antonio came of age
with Hemisfair .
M: That's what everybody says.
H: Up until Hemisfair, San Antonio was a sprawling child. Hemisfair made
San Antonio grow up to manhood and become a major force in the community
of the United States.
M: The interesting thing is that •..
H: To me, one of the strong men responsible for the success of Hemisfair
was Walter McAllister because without ~val ter McAllister's persistence, we
would not have had the Convention Center. We would not have had the Tower
of the Americas. He was very much a major part of it. Another man who
has never received the amount of credit he deserves is Mr. Zachary.
Pat Zachary was most useful. He anticipated long in advance many of the
pitfalls that the Falr would encounter. He built this wonderful hotel
right across the street that made the Fair accessible to a lot of people.
John Conally, our governox, was an important asset to the Fair. Senator
HARRIS 12
John Tower was an important factor in getting our funds through the Senate.
M: How do you feel about Yarborough? Was the Fair in his District at
that time?
H: The Representative from the 21st District who retired a few years
back, o.c. Fisher, he was very useful. Yarborough, no, but he was one
of our Senators. Yarborough almost threw a monkey wrench into the plans.
M: ···That's why I asked you that question. (laugh) I tossed you that to
see what your reaction was. I just heard about that. He was mad at
somebody, wasn't he and he was retaliating?
H: I don't know what his f eelings were but we almost lost the Federal
contribution.
M: ~las Walter UcAllister mayor during these years?
H: Yes, he was . He was at all of the meetings; supported strongly the
major buildings; permanent buildings.
M: Was Johnson President?
H: Yes. Lyndon Johnson was President.
M: I remember he came to the Fair several times and Lady Bird came seve­ral
times. There was a great fuss.
H: I think Lady Bird gave the dedicatory speech when Hemisfair opened,
as I recall. She was the main attendant that day at the Fai r .
M: As I read Mrs. Vickers, as she develops the plan: first there was
the money---the search for money and what-not. Then there was the site,
where were they going to put it? She says the first suggestion was over
by Lackland, which was turned down . Then out by Lone Star Brewery, which
was turned down. Whoever was involved in the site selection, that group,
decided it must be right downtown. She says that Urban Renewal had been,
since 1960, looking at this piece of land because it was a fast deterio­rating
neighborhood. So that they had already done some surveying and
were familiar with this piece of property. The Fair people had said,
HARRIS 13
"we need a hundred a·'Cres. '' And if I'm remembering correctly, this was
90 some.
H: It was 96.
M: Even as late as Bicentennial, as Heritage chairman, I got letters,
still, from disgruntled people who had lived on Hemisfair , still complain­ing
about being "thrown off of Ilemisfair." How did they handle that?
It said they put them in "nicer" houses but you can seE: you wouldn't want
to leave your neighborhood.
H: I think that was limited to a very few people. It was more for the
press than anything else. The media blew that all out of proportion.
I think there were one or two' people '-rho objected; one woman said they
would have to literally "carry me away." i don't think they did.
M: I remember that : an old lady who had lived there all her life.
H: I can't imagine what that area would have been today without that
beautiful Convention Center and the Theater for the Performing Arts and
the Arena. We wouldn't have had this fabulous basketball team that is
getting us more publicity nationally than anything that ever happened
in San Antonio. Except Hemisfair.
M: Did you stay on as sort of the Father; did you stay active?
H: I stayed as active as they would allow me to stay . They kept me sub­dued.
M: They did?
(Ponton: who is they?)
H: This coterie of people who .••
M: Didn't they want to share the credit with you?
H: No. I got no recognition whatever at any point during Hemisfair,
or since, except such as the Press gave me; other publications .
M: She's given you some. (Mrs. Vickers) She opens the story with you.
H: But you see, politics is a very powerful thing . Even today Sinkin
HARRIS 14
and Gonzales are strongly allied politicians.
M: Are they? I heard that Bill Sinkin really got his start as a result
of Hemisfair. In the banking business.
H: I would think so. Of course, I don't know the facts . He became ident­ified
with certain important people ••• in that direction. He was in the
apparel business up 'til then. He was a manufacturer of childrens' wear
or something, I don't know.
M: He had a department store over on the West Side, didn't he?
H: Yes, he did have a department store.
M: There was a bond election. It says Henry B. Gonzales and McAllister
were co-chairmen of Hemisfair· at this point.
H: They were.
M: So there was McAllister. And then there was talk about "first we've
got to get the city wired." Then we've got to get the State involved
because the Federal government won't move unless the State is in. Then
the State agreed to do something. There was a bond issue here. Then the
Federal government. Then they had to go to the International. They
couldn't go until they had the State and the Federal .
H: They went to the Bureau of International Expositions, BIE. And got
their approval as a recognized World's Fair.
M: Somebody I interviewed recently said it never did get recognized.
~ ... . -
I said I was sure it did but he said, "No, it never was recognized as
a World's Fair."
H: It was recognized by the BIE who designates a World's Fair per se.
They have certain limitations. A World's Fair under their auspices can
only run a certain number of days. Our Fair ran 184 days. From April 6
to October 6. I was chairman of the committee that fixed the dates. You
have to have their recognition before you can get any foreign participa­tion
and we had many European countries. As well as countries from the
HARRIS 15
Orient here.
M: And there can only be one at any one time. Is that right?
H: There can only be one and they can't be too close together. I don't
know whether Seattle was a recognized Fair or not . That had been the
Fair prior and we were running practically following the Fair in Montreal.
I think we were right in that •. •
M: That's right • . It mentions Dingwall being hired. It says he had been
very successful in the Seattle Fair.
H: Yes, he came out of the Seattle Fair with it showing a profit. Pecu­liarly,
the Fair in Seattle is still very vital and vibrant today. The
Needle out there is attracting people day by day---many, many o f them.
M: Why, when all this planning was going ~n (and finally it all got
settled), why do you think that nobody had the perspicacity so say, "What
are we going to do with this stuff after it's over?"
H: rvithout trying to use the first person singular, but soon after t~e
Fair was over, I sent a letter to Walter McAllister and J erry Henkel, who
was the city manager at that time and I think to the President of the Cham­ber
of Commerce with this suggestion: San Antonio has probably more ethnic
groups living here than any other city in America. We ought to take that
96 acres and give each one of those groups, the Chinese, the Japanese,
the Germans, the French, the Isrealites, the Greeks, a small parcel of
ground that -they can build their own facility on and serve their own food
and have their own entertainment and make it a show place for tourists.
As well as for the localites . I said there's nothing there for San Antonians
to come down to see now. There's very little for · the tourists. And there
still isn't. But supposing they had given each one of these ethnic groups
an acre, or whatever it took, to put up a . • .
M: Wouldn't that have been fun! Or use the existing historic buildings.
H: It was at a time when San Antonio received its first wind-fall from
HARRIS 16
the government. When the government first began giving money to the cities.
I said San Antonio has fallen heir to these millions of dollars. Use that
and let it be the money for these different groups to start their own.
I mentioned the fact that during Fiesta there was a section of the parade
called Parade of Nations? Remember that? Where there was always a French
float, a German float, etc. Can you visualize Hemisfair with a little area
with a building where you could go if you wanted German food, another build­ing
where you could get good French food?
M: It would be so marvelous!
H: Or where you could go if you wanted Chinese food,---sort of like the
Los Angeles Farmer's Market . · That certainly attracts plenty of people.
Or it could have been like the gardens over in Europe.
M: Copenhagen ••• Denmark. Well, they didn't accept that, obviously.
What do you think at this time, 1979, about it? There's now get another
feasibility plan in the works .
H: I still think there should be something there besides a Federal build­ing.
I think the Institute of Texan Cultures is probably the most valu­able
thing there. I think the Mexican University is of some importance.
Except for the Institute of Texan Cultures, I don't think there is anything
there that would draw a tourist . Certainly not a Federal building, where
court is in session.
M: And the parking is so limited. I office at the Institute so I'm over
there all the time. Depending on how much time I have and need the walk,
I go way down to the Phillipine restaurant at the other end.
H: That's quite a long walk.
M: It's a good walk and good for me.
H: But you're alone, aren't you? You don't see many people.
M: No. There are just a few people looking lost. I see tourists come
HARRIS 17
to the Institute. I see them leave the Institute and wander down through
Hemisfair, kind of looking around. On a cold day in the winter time, when
it's kind of drizzley, it's a pretty unwelcoming place.
H: There's one addi tional thing down there that ' s interesting. The Witte
Museum Automobile exhibit.
M: Transportation Museum.
H: Which has an interest for a certain number of people. I don't know
if it attracts everybody . I still think there's enough area in Hemisfair
for a nucleus of a certain ethnic colony in there.
M: It would be just marvelous. The thing that concerns me is those historic
buildings because when you dd research on buildings, you get so you think
you own them ••• you're their mama. So I see these buildings going to pieces.
Some are standing empty; the man who does the Phillipine restaurant, poor
man, he's just ignored. He ' s been there a long time.
H: Since the Fair.
M: He bought it from the Phillipine people. I ate lunch there last Monday
and there was nobody there .• • absolutely nobody there but me. I was late
to be sure. I've gone in there when people were waiting to get in at
lunch time. I don't know; he must make some money or he wouldn't be there.
I quit ~going there in the summer because by the time the cool water gets
to him, it's hot upstairs where I like to eat. You can't bear it, it's
-.. ·--
like eating in the attic. The city is neglecting him; they wouldn't come
and prune his bushes so he went one day and just hacked them off. I told
him he shouldn't have done that. He said he just couldn't wait any longer,
they were growing way up .
H: I think the Tower is still getting quite a business.
M: I don't know. We take out-of-town visitors there sometimes for dinner.
So they can see the city at night.
HARRIS 18
H: Are there crowds up there anymore? Sometimes during conventions, some­one
told me they're busy.
M: The last time we were there, we took some people from Idaho and there
was only a fair crowd . They were fascinated by the Tower turning around
and seeing the city at night. I went up for lunch with a friend about a
year ago; the food is ju~t ordinary but it's terribly expensive for lunch.
H: Incidentally I was a little disappointed---Jim Gaines was a very good
friend of mine---when he took that position as major domo of the Hemis­fair,
that he didn't come up with some ideas. I went to Jim and gave him
the same idea.
M: I worked with him closely· after the Fair because I wanted to get the
markers up on the historic buildings so the tourists could see when the
house was built; who it belonged to; and a little bit of its life history.
So I worked with Jim and I had some ideas and I kept saying, "why don't
you do this?" He said, "They don't allow me any authority at all."
H: I know that .
M: So it probably wasn't his fault.
H: I think they threw him a bone. There was one fabulous guy. I just
don't understand what happened to Jim Gaines . When I knew him first, he
was head of WOAI, doing a magnificent job; he was President of the Chamber
of Commerce and did great work for the City; then he became General Manager
of Hemisfair and that was his undoing.
M: Too much pressure ?
H: He had a conflict with someone. He had gone to Washington with a
group and coming back on the plane, he made some statements that did him
in.
M: Really? He was such a nice person .
H: That's when he was relieved of his job.
HARRIS 19
M: There's one thing I wanted to ask you. Someone resigned ••. who was
that---did Zachary resign as chairman, president, whatever; Marshall
Steves was vice president and he then took over.
H: Bill Sinkin resigned.
M: Oh, it was Sinkin.
H: There was a lot of contention about Sinkin being President of Remis-fair.
So they made Marshall Steves President and I think they gave Bill
the honorary title of Chairman of the Board.
M: In other words, he was pushed upstairs. This was interesting: it
said that when Marshall took over the job, he named seven vice presidents,
each with his own specified r~sponsibilities. That seems like a good
idea. Did that work?
H: In some capacities it did, and in some it didn't. I think the Fair,
without a doubt, had the worst publicity of anything that ever was.
M: It was just shocking.
H: We should have, in my opinion, been r eally capable of doing great things
with the amount of money they had to spend for publicity; we got very little
publicity.
M: Who was the PR guy, Hanupelli?
H: No, no , Manupelli did a good job.
M: I have done PR on a national scale and know a little something about
it and I was just shocked.
.
H: You would have been shocked at some of the fees we paid some of those
national orgm1izations to handle it; the poor job they did for us. We
just wasted money.
M: People 150 miles away didn't know anything about the Fair.
H: That's right.
M: Our own State didn't know about it. You'd meet people who'd say,
HARRIS 20
"Is this a World's Fair?" "Yes it is," "Pvell, we didn't bear anything about
·1
it." Hard to understand.
H: The best kept secret in history.
M: It really was. It was such a chaiming, small, cozy kind of a Fair that
it's just a sin that thing didn't get advertised.
H: Someone said it was going to be a sort of a jewel box type of affair
and it was. It had the worst publicity and public relations and press
of anything that I ever heard of. And we spent vast amounts of money
employing public relations firms in New York, and advertising agencies.
M: I suppose they thought we were just a little hick piace.
Ponton: Do you lay the blame on anyone in particular?
H: I don't lay the blame, I just think it was---the whole Executive
Committee, of which I was a member, didn't realize what was going on. I
dust think we didn't have the right contacts.
M: We weren't sophisticated. Because I am so interested in Hemisfair
and because I "live" (office) over there, this is one thing I keep hearing:
the University's Continuing Education program is occupying buildings on
Hemisfair. The present plan that I hear about now is that they're talking
about making a downtown university out of Hemisfair. A downtown univer-sity
campus. The man that is running the Continuing Education program is
very successful. Apparently, doing a very good job. (General Lindley.) I
have heard---there are classes being held at the Institute of Texan Cultures
several times a week. I understand he woula like to have no classes at
the Institute but have everything over on the Hemisfair grounds. Do you
think that a downtown university campus would be an answer?
H: You mean in addition to UTSA that is operating?
M: Yes.
H: No, I don't think we need two. If you have the facilities for special
HARRIS
classes at the Institute and it's practical to have them there, that's
~
fine. But to turn that area into a University •••
M: That would of no interest to tourists, would it?
H: · Not a bit in the world.
21
M: This is an answer to why they shouldn't have put the UTSA out there
where it is. It should have been downtown in the first place.
H: It should have been closer in.
M: It's a "street" University.
Ponton: It was a political • • .
M: You bet it was ••.
H: It's there now •.• it's too late now. It's a r eality.
M: But this is kind of a trailing along answer to catch the people down-town.
H: I don't think we need a second university .•. a branch .
M: Do you think your idea of an ethnic---sort of a foreign colony, is
still viable?
H: Beryl (Ponton), did you hear my explanation? What do you think of
that?
Ponton: I think it would be great. I think, to back up, one emphasis
that's not been clarified: Hemisfair was Urban Renewal, number 1. On
a national level. I think what the city has here for ethnic uses would
be an advantage . I saw in the paper that A and M was negotiating for space
down there for some of their extension courses but I notice they have
gotten some property southwest part of town. I do think that ethnic use
would be great. As an active member of the Institute of Texan Cultures,
there are twenty-six original ethnic groups when Texas was put together.
Twenty-six cultures. And most of them still have quite active organiza-tions.
H: A vital part of the community.
HARRIS 22
M: That's what Mr. Harris is saying.
H: I don't know if this has been done recently but in the Flambeau Parade
my great interest was a section was called Parade of Nations. There was
a float from Japan, a float from China, a float from Germany, and from
all of the groups. Now, in a sense, that is what I would like to see
Hemisfair Plaza turn into. An ethnic community of interesting spots deve­loped,
created by people of those origins. I think it would be a fabu­lous
tourist attraction.
Ponton: I agree with you whole heartedly.
H: I haven't been on Hemisfair Plaza for seven or eight years.
Ponton: I'll take you down there. (laughter)
H: I have nothing to go there for. The only time I go to Hemisfair---oh,
I take it back: I go . to basketball games at the Arena. But I mean the
Plaza per se.
M: It's pretty deserted.
H: I go '~ to the Tower of the Americas if I have someone who has come to
visit and has never been in San Antonio before, I want to show them the
panorama. With the new hotels that are being built downtown, with the in­flux
of conventions---say we have a convention that brings ten or fifteen
thousand people here, and they attend their meetings all day. They are
turned loose at night and they are here for four days. They're not going
to want to .go back to that river every night for four nights.
Ponton: I think you're turning full circle which I think is great in
that your original concept was a place for national and international
visitors and older pepple, like me, and not necessarily a World's Fair.
Not a six month's shot.
H: My original concept was to have permanent buildings. And they're still
trying to develop this Mexican Trade Fair, which has been successful until
now. But if we had permanent buildings, that would be maintained not
HARRIS 23
only for Mexico but for Brazil, Columbia, for all of the •.•
Ponton: What's your feeling about the Arsenal? I'm getting into the
Trade Center versus the Hemisfair. What's your feeling about the Arsenal?
H: I think the Arsenal isn't as good because it doesn't have the attrac­tions
around it.
M: It's a little out of the way.
H: And it's in a very unattractive part of the town. Unless you come in
from the back door; come down King William Street and come around that
way. But everybody that goes to the Arsenal will be going down South
Flores Street.
M: I wondered about that when it started. It just didn't sound like
it was going to work. (a Trade Fair on the Arsenal grounds.)
H: It might detract from El Mercado which is pretty close to it.
M: That's certainly a successful operation.
H: If Hemisfair Plaza were developed so that you, as a visitor here ' from
Chicago at a convention, could go over there and spend an afternoon or a
night or both. Then the next night go to the river and have dinner in
one of those places or one of those amusement spots; the next night to
the Market Square. Your convention period would be used up and you'd see
San Antonio. This way, you come here and, "Oh, let's go to Kangaroo Court
tonight" Well, where do you go tomorrow night? You don't want to go to
an adjoining restaurant.
M: You want to be able to walk if you're in a downtown hotel.
H: We do have this Mexican Mercado , which I think :.is delightful. It
would augment Hemisfair Plaza and give tourists a sort of blue print of
what to do when they come to San Antonio. Spend one night on the river;
one night down in the Mercado; one night on Hemisfair Plaza. Getting
back to the Arsenal, I grew up as a boy on South Flores Street, right in
HARRIS
that area. Even before the Katy railroad station was ever built. My
q
family home was where the Katy railroad built their station.
Ponton: What was your business?
H: Frank Brothers.
Ponton: I know your business was.
24
H: My family's business was, too. It was in my family for over a hun-dred
years. It was founded in 1868. We maintained and retained it until
1965, I think, when we sold it . I was in the store fifty years.
M: Why was it called Frank instead of Harris?
H: ·It has had a number of names. It's always been family. It started
out-~My father's brother, Sam. Harris , was president of Frank Brothers
for about ten years but they never changed xhe name. It had been called
Frank Brothers but he was the head of it.
M: Everybody knew it as that.
H: I think Frank Brothers started out as Bloomberg and Frank; and then
it became the Solomon Deutsch Company. Then it became Frank Brothers and
it is still Frank Brothers. But it was all family. Many businesses go
through that. Just like Straus Frank at one time was L. Frank Saddlery
Company. Then it became Straus Frank. Now it's Strafco.
Ponton: Is there any connection between Frank Brothers and Straus Frank?
H: Not at all. There never was. There was an A.B. Frank here, too, a
big wholesaler house. There was no relationship. And there's a Sol Frank
store here--no relationship.
M: Do you, finally, this upgrading of Alamo Plaza and all the lovely plans
that are taking shape; is that going to, for instance your family business ,
Frank Brothers, is that going to help that business? I should think it
would.
H: I can't see where it will hurt.it but of course I have no interest
in it. It was sold.
HARRIS 25
M: I'm interested ~n downtown.
H: I'm interested in downtown becoming a place where people are not afraid
to go. And something to go down there for. The only thing in the world--is
this thing still on?
M: Yes, we're just visiting.
H: The only thing I allow my wife to go downtown for is number one, -to
go to the bank; number two, to go to the doctor's. The building is the
Nix; she can park in that building. Or to go to a store on Houston street
in which there is a parking lot adjacent or across the street. I wouldn't
allow her ·to walk from Alamo Plaza to Houston Street.
M: You wouldn ' t?
H: No .
M: In the daytime?
H: One of the difficult things today is to cross Houston Street at Navarro.
If you're going from the St. Anthony Hotel to the Nix building, for example .
There is a bus stop there and it's congested. They won't let you through;
it's just miserable.
M: This morning's paper had an article saying that the way has finally
been cleared for the city to start acquiring property for the new Mariott
Hotel there on the river and Crockett. It takes so long to do anything!
The plan to develop Alamo Plaza; the Conservation Society with Tommy Wright,
is doing the Reuter building on the corner; it's high time, too. This has
grown out of.Bicentennial here. This is another thing: we had a lot of
fine effects from Hemisfair; we're having some things from Bicentennial,
too. It seems when they get the fronts, the facades, of some of those
terrible plastic buildings on Alamo Plaza fixed, we're going to have a
prettier town. These were some of the people I've been told were involved
with Hemisfair and I'd .like your opinion on should I interview them. Did
HARRIS 26
they play an important part, in your opinion? O.T. Eaker---I've got a fine
;
interview with him on Folklife Festival. Did he have the connection just
with the Folklife Festival?
H: It could be. I don't recall.
M: Do you remember David Black?
H: Was he part of the architectural group?
M: I think he was Public Relations. He works over at Southwest Research.
What about---I don't suppose I'll ever get a chance to interview John
Connally now that he's announced for President.
H: I think he will. I think you'd have more of a chance now than you
would before .
M: O'Neil Ford, of course, What about Ca~los Freyman?
H: He had a lot to do with it.
M! I don't know these people, Elinor and David Johnson? Does that mean
anything to you?
H: Yes. She worked for the llemisfair but I don't recall what.
M: I'm going to interview Nancy Negley. I've been told she was the one ,
that she was really responsible for saving the number of historical houses
that were saved. Do you know anything about that?
M! I've talked to Jack Newman. I'm going to interview him.
H: He is very fine.
M: He had something to do with publicity, didn't he? Public Relations?
H: He had more to do with the foreign exhibits as I recall.
M: Harold Robbins?
H: Yes. He's still around, I think. He worked for Hemisfair . I can ' t
remember their capacities. Jack Traj{wick, is his name on there? He's
with Straus Frank Company. He handled the financial end of it.
M: Billy (Harris ) was going over this the other day. He told me that I
HARRIS 27
would probably get mpre straight facts from Trry{wick, who was controller,
than almost anybody else.
H: You might tell him that I said that, too.
M: I'll do it. Allison Perry; he added that on.
H: He was the architect.
l )
M: Along with Neil; but Neil got fired along in there somewhere, didn't
he?
H: I think he had some differences on account of the Tower, which he
designed, incidentally.
M: I'm going to interview Bob Winn next week. He did that marvelous
Mexican Folkart Exhibit (Girard collection).
H: He's a very capable person.
M: Pat Zach~ry---I should certainly get him.
H: I should say so.
M: Billy was not sure he would talk to me. I've met him socially but
I don't know him.
·n: You might say that you interviewed me in reference to Hemisfair and
that I said he was one of the strong forces of Hemisfair.
M: We've lost Jim Gaines; we've lost lrv Weinman.
H: He was the publicity man.
M: He was P.R. according to the information I have. Jim Gaines was called
--..__ .,_ -
Executive Vice President.
H: That's what all the managers were called. And finally Zachpry took
that job over himself to complete Hemisfair.
M: Do you think I should interview f<linston 11artin?
END OF SIDE II.