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BEXAR COUNTY HISTORICAL COMMISSION
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: Maj. Gen. Willi am A. Har ris, Ret.
INTERVI EWER: Mrs. Esther MacMillan
DATE: J anuary 22, 1980
M: You said i n the Trawick interview that you were vice president in charge
of headaches . At one point you said that you came on two weeks e arlier than
planned because so many h eadaches were building up. Tell me, what exactly
was your position i n Hemisfair?
H: I was the assistant comptroller and was supposed t o do anything I could
to help Jack Trawick. And I really ended up being what I call ed humorously,
vice president in charge of all headaches. I had fire, police, gate security,
medical , transport ation (the little e l ectric carts), liability insurance . ..
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all these things and I was s upposed to have come on board the first of
January 1968. But about two weeks before that, Jack called and asked if
I could come in early because preparations were just not being made. So I
came aboard and the first thing he gave me was the police and the fire.
We worked out a good solution here and it was one of the f ew cases that
we had complete coope ration between the city and the Fair people, amicably.
What the city did was t ake their number two policeman, Inspector John Fitch,
and put him over at the Fair full time and the number two fireman and put
him over there. Then the Fair supplemented and gave them extra money over
and above their city pay. It really worked extremely well. We had very,
very few difficulties there.
IIARRIS 2 .
I mentioned the security a t the gates . Inspector Fitch and I had the
·~ seCi!rity at the gates although another office. actually handled the ticket
taking. But whenever they got in trouble they would have to call us. And
the one I mentioned earlier, we always had probl ems wi th the President's
brother, who had a way of getti~g too much to drink , deciding everybody
should go down to the Fair and would suddenly arrive at one of the gates
(I think there were five , but I've really forgotten right now), but he
would arrive with of a crew of fifteen or twenty from his party ~nd demanding
that he was the President's brother and he should get i n free and all his
friends should get in free . The fi.rst time , we resolved it by lots of
discussion and argument in letting him i n, and he compl ained officially
to the Executive Board and somebody on the Executive Board handled it.
But r.,re still had problems once or twice after that. r·1e would not l et him
in at that time but we would take him around to the governor's office and
we would turn it over to them and let them handle it.
M: We ought to say for future genera t ions that the President was Lyndon
B . Johnson. /
H: On the fire, we had very little troubl e there; we did have some fricti on
with individual purveyors of fire equipment who were coming up with all these
little miniature fire engines that they wanted to sell to the Fair; rent
to the Fair . But we worked that all out.
The medical was another problem. I got a retired medical administrative
officer who came in and was our man. That's wh en I found out that you cannot
hire a physician, that a company like the Fair, cannot, so what we had to
do was to completely s taff it and then we had to go to the Bexar County
Medical Society and they would provide from their ranks, doctors . Most of
them were fi ne; they would come down; they would not ask any exorbitant fees;
they would either take nothing, donate t heir time or take the s t andard f ee
llARRIS 3 .
as put out by the rate guide in the regular medical thing. But we had two
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or ~three who apparentl y were not doing v ery good business and they would
continually volunte e r and then would try to grab e very penny and incr ease
the fees. One o f the r-1omen, whose name I fortunately can' t r emember, was
one of the bad one s about it' ~ The only one thing that really s ticks in my
mind i n the medi cal was the one accident we had v1h en one mono rail ran into
another and the p eople were dumped into the lagoon there. I don ' t mean this
exactl y the way it sounds, b ut we got a very good break at the location
because 1-1here the accident occurred was i mmediately by the medical dispen-sary
.
M: Was anybody kill ed in that accident?
H: There was one older woman who died l ater . I think it was more the shock
of the water . But the accide nt occurred, a s you may have read at the time ,
where the young drive r of the second foll ow- on train k'as , frankly , r ead i ng
a comic book and not paying any attention to anythi ng and jus t ran into the
other. The collision happene d to be on a curve and the y just fell over.
M: My neighbor across the street was on it when it fell down and fortunately
wasn ' t hurt.
H: Another thing i n the medical we did have was that we had over-planned
the number of ambulances we needed . We made a contract and when we t r ied to
cut down on the contract, the contractor tried to hold the Fair up. We e ven-tually
took the bull by the horns and would only accept a certain number of
ambulances. He kept billing us and we wouldn't pay hi m except for the ones
we used . Actually, he later on sued and that suit was not settled really
until 1979. It went on that long . We had to have depositions and all this
kind of business but he finally l ost the suit. He n e v er got it.
M: Did you have a doctor on the grounds all the time or when there was an
emergency?
HARRIS 4.
H: Yes, all the time the Fair was open . ...
M: ' :ll.nd I suppose nurses and things like that.
H: Nurses we could get.
M: They were no problem. But you had t o have somebody on the site all
the time? Did you have very many catastrophes? Physically, speaking.
H: No . I mentioned o ne of t he other headaches was l iability insurance.
We had the insuran ce group there , rvoody Al tgel t was the h e ad of it, I
think it was the Gul f Group, but we had somebody e lse down there and they
we r e very good. The only probl em there , which ;.;e never really s olved, was
who owned the l and i n front of the Institute of Te xan Cultures? Where the
flag poles were. Fortunately we never had a case that came up b ut we were
always worried if s omebody fell and broke an ankle or something there in the
disputed area , would they sue t he State or would they sue Hemisfair? It
never came up.
M: This is s omething you thought of ahe ad of time , "what if", that sort
of a thing.
H: Another of my problems was parking. I'll mention one humorous s ide
and t hen the real problem. On the humorous side, the first h eadache tha t
Jack tossed to me whe n I arrived, was the dispute over who was going to
use the area between t he Arena and the Theater for the Performing Arts .
There was one group plus some members of the Executive Commi t tee that wanted
to make it an English garden a fo rmal English garden . Jerry Henckel, the
city manager at the time , wanted it for his private parking lot. And the
competing one , which won out for the initial part of the Fair was that we
had already signed a contract with the big Barnum and Bailey Circus and
that 's where the elephants were supposed to be. So the elephants won out
but when the c i rcus l eft , t h en the battle started again. And at this time
the city manager won out and it was made a parking lot, which was controlled
llllRJJIS 5.
by the city . This caus ed problem after problem because it was the choice
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parking lot for t he Fair where you could go in and go to 'the the ater , the
Arena, and on to the Fair grounds. So everybody was always sne aking in,
getting by the guard or giving the guard a story that wasn't true and time
and again the city manager would come in and find s omebody parked in his
parking place and then all hell would break loose again .
The one incident I r emember: I nspector Fitch came by the door and
said, "vle ' ve got problems out in the parking lot." So I went out with him
and he t old me the city man ager had come in and found somebody in his parking
lot so he had ra dioed for a wr ecker to come and get it. And he s ent t.;ord
to us to go supervise it, which we did . When we got out there, the wrecker
had arrived and had al ready lifted and was taking off the city manager's
car . I thought this was wonderful and tri ed to get Inspector Fitch to let
it go but he said "no, I 've got to work with t he city after the Fair is
ove r . "
M: How many cars did that parking area hold? It was fairly small, wasn't
it?
H: Yes, quite small.
M: Who used it? Staff, executive committee and people like that?
H: No, it was city and you remember the city staff and the Fair staff did
not speak to each other.
M: They didn't? Why?
H: I've never known why . Actually that was the real reason we had no post-
Fair plan .
M: Who was mayor a t the time?
H: Mayor McAllister and he was the only one, he was on the Executive Committee.
M: He didn ' t give any trouble about it, did he?
H: Oh no . There were people on the Executive Committee who thought that
lfA,RRIS 6.
the Fair was their private little cocktail party and they were always igno-
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ring the city staff and causing a lot of trouble.
M: Reall y?
H: Yes .
M: I don't see how you could operate without the cooperation of the City
Council. You did, obviousl y.
H: rve did but i t 1·1as almos t independ ently except for a few areas I've
mentioned ... the police and the fire ... there lvas complete cooperation. That's
the r eal r eason we had no post-Fair plan.
M: Why do you say that?
H: Because the period before the Fair and during the Fair, we should have
had a complete plan and when, actually when we built the Fair, we should
have known what each building was going to be after the Fair and we nev e r
did it.
M: How can you blame that on the City Council?
H: I don ' t blame it on the city council, I bl ame it on the fact tha t the
Fair people and city/council would not sit down and tackle the problem
jointly because t he Fai r wasn't going to have anything to do with it after
they left and the city would. Unless the two of them had meshed together,
and established joint planning committees, we weren't going to have any
post Hemisfair plan and we didn't.
M: Eve rybody I have interviewed about Hemisfair I have asked about post-
Fair plans and time and time again, there have been plans, there were plans;
people were considering it at the time.
H: Tha t' s right, but nobody did anything about it.
M: Nobody did anything about it.
H: The only one, you remember the one I told you about, Mr. Zachry. I
think he told about it in his •.• did he tell you about it in his post-Hemisfair
HAJ\RIS 7.
pl ans? ...
M: I haven't interviewed him yet, you know, but I have a'll of his material.
H: Well , l e t me tell you a little bi t about it; what he had told me. About
two years be fore the Fair, or, I've forgotten, but just before the Fair ,
Pr esiden t Johnson had invited the President of Mexico to visit him at his
ranch. There was a terrible storm, rain and what-not, and for a while the
fa rm h'as i solated . In the middl e of the night the Presi den t called Mr .
Zachry and s aid, "Can you help me out?" Mr . Zachry , like he alr-1ays does ,
delivered . Actually , he had equipmen t moving that night before dayl ight
after the President cal led him. He rushed help t o the Presi dent s o tha t
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the Presiden t could have.., official visit .
M: He t·1as isol ated at the ranch?
H: He couldn't get this entourage , I think it was the Pre sident of f.fexico
was coming over to visit him and i t was a question of clearing the r oads.
I' ve forgotten the exact de tai ls but Pat did it.
When thanking Mr. Zachry for this , the President said, "If there i s
anything you ever wapt, come to me." Mr. Pa t did have this idea and shortly
thereafter did contact the President and gave him his idea which was ... Now
remember this was , I t hi nk , two years befor e t he Fair opened. But his
pos t-Hemisfair plan was to take the Hemisfair area .• . and you've got to
think back to the climate at that time in the Uni ted States . At that parti-c
ul ar time there was a movement on foot to decentralize out of Washington
as much of t he f ederal government as it could and there were some things
that actually were moved out to Denver, Chicago and other places. To get
it out of Washington , I suppose, from the point of view of making it such
a target place in case of war .
At any rate, Mr . Pat went up to the President and said, "In this
climate of decentralizat ion out of Washington, why don ' t we look at Hemisfair
HARRIS 8.
in San Antonio as being the connecting link , co~~uni ca ti on link, everything,
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with Central and South America. And you direct your Cabinet t o l ook at
all those things: trade , financial, cultural, everything, tha t can be
decentralized out of r-.rashington and make San Antonio and use the llemisfair
grounds where you would have an i nterna tional bank thing , all this." And
the President told him, "I think this is a wonderful idea but I am a prac-t
ical politician. And before I und ertake thi s, I have got to have the
support of both your S enators. " At that time Tower and Yarborough . Un-fotunately
at just that time, some people on the Fxecutive Committee de-cided
to kick. Mr. Yarborough in the teeth. I ' ve forgotten the details but
they would not accept on the Executive Committee a couple of people that
Ya r borough wanted on there.
M: In return for something in lia shington , he wanted his peopl e on .
H: Yes. So he wouldn 't support it and that went out.
When I think back now, the opportunity that San Antonio had to be
the focal point , the communication link, everything financial, trade, bet-ween
Central and So uth America it would have just made San Antonio. The
Hemisfair grounds would have been ideal for a thing like that . Jus t imagine!
M: That ' s a shame , isn ' t it?
H: Yes.
M: You were on during the whole duration of the Fair? From beginning to
end.
Did you feel that in spite of the money problems , in spite of the
lower-than-anticipated attendance, that it was a wonderful Fair? Successful?
ov
H: I thought it was~marvelous little Fair. It's really a crime that
it wasn 't better publicized. By a curious choice of names, we hurt our-selves;
though a lot of people think Hemisfair was a wonderful word, and
HARRIS 9.
it is a catchy word, but adopting the word Hemisfair, nobody, outside of a
very f ew, knew that it was a World ' s Fair.
M: It really wasn't a world's fair, was it?
H: It t<1as a rvor ld' s fair.
M: I thought it was called a something International Exhibition.
H: No, it was an officially r ecognized tvorld' s fair . That ' s why we had to
have only six months. We were directly approved by the ...
M: I thought that because of the size it was sort of a world's fair but
something else.
H: No .
M: It was a full world's fair? This came up i n Mr. Trawick's interview.
Mr . Harris, v.'hen he first suggested the name, never dreamed of it being a
world's fair. He vias just simpl y thinking of this hemisphere.
H: It was approved by the organization in Belgium that approves fairs.
M: It was too late to change the name, I s uppose .
H: I don't think people r eali zed it until the Fair was almost over that
they had hurt themselves. So it was a lack of proper publicity, in my
opinion . But it is a shame because , in my opinion , it was a beautiful
little Fair .
M: It's been called a little jewel box and it certainly was. You wish
you could do it all over again, don't you? That's one of the things about
these interviews. If somebody is thinking of a world's fair, he could come
over and look at these interviews and say , "That ' s where they made a mistake.
We won't do that."
H: The minute you start planning a Fair, you' ve got to start planning
a post-Fair. Other wise you 'll find yourself in exactly the position San
Antonio is in now.
M: I heard recently that New Orleans is thinking of doing a world ' s fair.
i-i11RRIS 10 .
They ' re close; they could easily come over here and s tudy these things.
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H: ~ Dallas is trying to get a Worl d' s Fair organized for the Sesquicentennial.
Whether the Sesquicentennial Committee will agree to it or let them apply
t o the Belgian organization for a fair, I don't know.
M: Do you feel that the present s ituation .• . you spoke of it i n Trawick's
interview a little bi~someone has said that the use of the Fair grounds
by the University for a campus , a downtown campus , is well and good but
it does not bring people . Do you agree with that? Do you agree with the
l atest idea (of how many, I don 't know ,) to open a street and then have
private people , boutiques, restaurants , etc . occupying the main part o f
Hemisfair.
H: No, I t ake an entirely different view. I have always felt that the city
should l ook on it not as a money-making thing but as a people thing and
should make a peopl e ' s park. I' ve always felt they could pattern i t after
Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen . This has been suggested. Actually one of the
studies the Chamber paid for, made by the Southwest Research Institute ,
came up with that kivd of a thing. I've read the study. I had a terrible
time to find a copy for Mr . Zachry .
M: They sent Carlos Freymann to Denmark twice to study it.
H: I'm talking about a people place. I still think it could be made that.
Every time the city starts thinking about plann i ng, they want it to be self-supporting,
financially. I don ' t think you can do that and have a people
place .
M: If you made it into a sort of a park, I worry about those historic
houses that are being allowed to go to pot. They really n eed to be used
for something.
H: They could be used.
M: For restaurants, little shops , thi ngs like that?
HARRIS 11 .
H: Tivoli Gardens is surrounded by restaurants. That 's the r-;a y you get
•• into~ it • . . well, the r e is a gate, but usually what you do is go in t o a r est-aurant
and part of your meal give s you entrance and so you go in and go
out the other side. The y have r estaurants from one end t o the o t her . . .
the hot- dog type to the mos t expen sive gourmet t ype. So you just pick o ut
the one you want ... or the one your pocket book suits.
M: That 's intere sting. I suppose t he shortage of money ... e v erybody is
talking about money now ... but tha t t-.rould sort of t¥ork i n with t his net.·est
Lance, Lahourcade study : private means t hey could support (the y're getting
s o many restaurants in tot-.rn now) ... but l·;ouldn't it be great t o have a whol e
bunch of restaurants o ver there; get those fountains going again . .. that ' s
wha t worrie s me .
H: I'm talking about a well-lit, nice place where p eople could just sit.
M: Children could play.
H: I think it used to cost five cents to get in t o Tivoli Gardens . The
people of Copenhagen, all of the people of Denmark , the y think they own it
and they do . Do you,know that that Fair has never gone in the red?
M: What fair?
H: I mean Tivoli Gardens. Even during the War, it has never gone in the
red .
M: What pays for it? The r e staurants, taxes?
H: Concessions , what they pay to be on the Fair grounds. It's a regular
corporation.
M: Do they have shops as well as restaurants? Things to buy?
H: No , I don 't t hink so. I'm going way, way back. I only went there
once and that was 1963 I think.
M: Now look , Denmark has a much colder climate than we have. Does Tivoli
Garden run in winter?
Hll.RRIS 12.
H: No. I' ve forgotten wha t their season is .
. ,.
M: " ':sut not the year around. rve could probably do it year around, here
in San Antonio.
Looks kind of hope l ess , doesn 't it?
H: They h ave all kinds of entertainment you know. All free , once you get
on the grounds. Symphonies, circus, this type of t h i ng.
M: Have they got a lot more space than tve have?
H: No.
M: Can you think of anything e l s e I haven't thought to ask you? Did you
meet ·any interesting people?
H: I remember one interesting thing. You remember Ambassador Cl ark was
our U.S. man . On the opening da y , with all the entourages going from place
to place; Ambassador Clark tvas understandably with Lady Bird. And I ended
up with Mrs. Clark. But I had to ride the last ve hicl e so we were having all
kinds of tro uble there .because she was getting excluded at the l ast minute
and she was getting madde r and madder. Finally, when we were going to the
very last thing for the forma l opening of the U.S . Pavilion, on this cart
she was on, the battery died and she had to get out and walk with this
small group . When they got in, the policeman wouldn't let her in. For-tunately
I came along in time and was able to straighten it out but it was .•.
I've seen irate women in my day .. . I didn't blame her . .. but .•.
M: I bet you had a lot of things like that: ego problems . Clark was
Ambassador to Australia. Was he still Ambassador?
H: No.
M: He was through and back in this countr y .
H: But they still call him Ambassador.
M: We had royalty here. Did you have any problems with royalty here?
Protocol and all that fancy stuff?
IIARRIS 13.
H: No, Jack Newman and Henry Guerra and those people always handled that
...
th1.rig.
M: You d.idn ' t have t o fool with that.
H: We j ust h ad t o provide the police and things like t hat .
M: Was there an awful lot of e n tertaining?
H: Yes. To be cri tical, there was a group that considered Hemisfair as
thei r private six months cocktail party. And a lot of people who would
have been helpful had they been included, tvere not. There were a lot of
f eelings hurt . I think this was part of the problem with the city staff.
M: There ' s one other question I want t o ask you . It has come up in another
interview I've done, I can't rememb e r with whom, it was the first time in
the history of S an Antonio tha t two groups had worked together, though no t
as well as it should have , but the Mexican Americans and the Anglos did
cooperate.
H: I don ' t r ecall tha t a t all .
M: Thanks so very much for talking about your part i n Hemisfair.
END OF TAPE I , SIDE 1.