BEXAR COUNTY HISTORICAL COMMISSION
ORAL HI STORY PROGRAM
I NTERVIEP! WI TH: Mr s . Fred Irby
I NTERVIEWER: Mrs . Esther MacMillan
DATE : October 25 , 1979
PLACE: The Oral History Office at the Institute of Texan Cultures
M: Doris, I would like to have you start with . . . how did all this begin,
the idea of a Woman ' s Pavilion?
I : The idea of a Woman's Pavilion was initiated by the Federated Womens '
Club of San Antonio . This was , of course , after the beautiful idea of
a World ' s Fair, celebrating 1968 and the 250th anniversary of San Antonio ' s
founding . It came about throu~h this qroup of women wishin~ to celebrate
fi!OMAN in some manner. They developed the idea and the city of San Antonio
appointed a committee to follow through on these ideas and plans . Mrs .
fvin.field Scott Hamlin vras a member of the city'·s appointed committee and in
the organizational processes, Mrs . Henry Metler was elected t he first presi ­dent
. She served ahout a gear. And was succeeded by Mrs . P.linfield Scott
Hamlin , who met the challenge and carried the dream of the Woman's Pavilion
to its successful accomplishment.
The idea of a Woman ' s Pavilion took hold almost immediately in San
Antonio . There was a qreat deal of publicity for it and women seemed to
come out of the woodwork.
M: You mean publicitt1 in the newspapers ? Television, and things like that?
IRBY 2.
I: Right. And of course, it was a challenge to women . They answered the
call to join and become charter members in fairly large numbers. I think
there were several hundred charter members •• . almost over night.
Then there were coffees organized by charter members who would invite
other women to come in and would tell them about the Woman 's Pavilion.
Under Mrs . Hamlin, it was very shortly organized into a tight little unit.
The honorary members were Mrs. Henry B. Gonzalez, Mrs. Walter W.
McAllister, Sr. , Mrs . Marshall Steves, Mrs. H.B. Zachry, Mrs. Inez Jose
Cano, Mrs. S.E. Cockrell, Jr., Mrs. James c. Nelson, Mrs . Paul Howell,
Mrs. Joaquin S. Gonzalez, and Mrs. John H. White. They constituted the
Roll of honorary members.
The Executive Committee was Mrs . Winfield S. Hamlin, who was presi­dent
and principal executive officer, when I became involved; Mrs. E. Lee
Ozbirn of Ft. Worth was general chairman for national and international
events; Mrs . Mike Passur was first vice president and chairman of special
gifts; Mrs. Louis Bishop was vice president and chairman of finance; Mrs.
W.W. Altgelt, Jr. was vice president and chairman of membership; Mrs.
Arthur S. Bennett was vice president and chairman of publicity; Mrs. Samuel
H. Morrow was vice president and chairman of architectural and exhibit
planning; Mrs. James F. Hutchins was vice president and chairman of Texas
participation; Mrs. David Mead was vice president and program chairman;
Mrs . Payton Butler was vice president and chairman of registration; Mrs.
James Q. Barnes was recording secretary ; Mrs. Florence Jorrie was treasurer;
Mrs. Henry Shaper was Parliamentarian.
The Board of Directors consisted of Mrs. John Armitage, Mrs. G.M.
Canales, Mrs . Preston Dial, Mrs . Bertie Duff, Mrs. Middleton English,
Mrs. Erna Galbreath, Mrs . Frank Galusha, Mrs. Manfred Gerhard, Mrs. Ethel
Wilson Harris, Mrs. harry H. Meyer, Mrs. Mike Passur, Mrs. Fred M. White,
IRBY 3.
Mrs. T.H. Wu, Mrs . Joe Bernal, Mrs. Reagan Houston III, Mrs . G.P . Inge,
Mrs . Fred B. Irby, Mrs. Louella S . McClain, Mrs. James McKay, Jr., Mrs .
Edward w. Penshorn , Mrs. Joe A. Potts , Mrs . Jose San Martin, Mrs. F.P.
Scherrer, Mrs. William Spice, Mrs. R.R. Tamez, Mrs. Harold Vexler, Mrs.
R.N. White , Mrs. C. A. Whittier, Mrs . Lanette Glasscock, Legal Counsel,
and I think, Virginia Flack .
M: Goodness ! There were a lot of people.
I: Well , a lot of people were needed. This Woman ' s Pavilion intended
to reach out through Texas, through the nation, and internationally, if
possible. This was done by a Board of Speakers. We traveled in groups
throughout different segments of Texas. We gave talks.
M: You were one of them, weren ' t you?
I: I was one of them. i"We spoke on Hemisfair '68 and gave a background • . •
sort of combined our efforts for the Hemisfair in general and for Woman ' s
Pavilion. We spoke to Womens ' clubs and organizations and groups through­out
Texas .
It was a beautiful idea and it was very easy to inflame women with the
enthusiasm of what it was all going to be about. I happened to be one of
those idealists who loved the idea; who loved the fact that first of all
San Antonio was having a 250th birthday. And that I was a part of it and
that women were going to be celebrated in a very special way.
I understand that Mr . H. B. Zachry was very excited about the idea
of a Woman ' s Pavilion. Without his encouragement, his help, financial
backing and • . • we might have faltered along the way, but as it happened,
it did become a glowing reality. We felt that it really was the dedication
and determination of a few women and the interested support of growing
numbers that brought the Woman's Pavilion of Hemisfair '68 to national
arid international attention.
IRBY
We women working on the Woman's Pavilion really thought t that it was
going to be the most perfect jewel in this setting of Hemisfair '68. It
was set among some tall trees, sunlight filtering through the branches;
4.
it was a very charming building. We felt it was a tribute to the inspi­ration
and the joint planning of the women who conceived it and the archi­tects
whose drawing boards produced it. It was beautifully proportioned.
It was a building with courtyards and broken lines along the exterior
walls; it had interest and character; it was a multi- level building; in
fact, it is still on Hemisfair grounds. It's a ·treat to go through it.
It had many natural sky lights that were designed to catch the sunlight
and the s hadows effectively on the interior. It was meant to be an explo­sion
of color and textures and sunlight. We felt that it was a building
worthy of its purpose. A testimony to the uni queness , the graciousness,
and the stamina of women everywhere. And most of all, we wanted it to
be an expression of woman's contribution to man ' s cultures.
The theme of the Woman ' s Pavilion was to pay homage to woman, the
eternal.
M: May I interrupt right here? My reference is Sue Vicker ' s book • .. have
you seen it? She did this book for her Master's degree. When she is
dealing with the Woman's Pavilion , she says the theme was the Changing
Role of Women in a Changing World. Have you got that?
I: Yes. I developed that thought. I thought that she was many things and
in talking to other people , in making talks to promote it, if you thought
that somebody had used the phrase before you, you tried to coin your own
feelings and your own expressions about it. It really was ...
M: So that was your idea! That particular phrase.
I: No, not necessarily mine. In fact, I don't know where ..• you mean a
changing role in a changing world?
IRBY 5.
M: She says the Changing Role of Women in a Changing World.
I: Oh yes. That was definitely the thought behind it. I called it an
exppession of womens' contribution to man's culture. The theme that would
pay homage to woman, the eternal, even while it explored and exPl ained
the enigma of woman today . We expected approximately 7,000,000 visitors.
M: Actually, basically, the Woman's Pavilion was intended to present
woman's role in a changing world.
I: Probably because of my own imaginative nature, and the fact that I
was speaking to groups of women, I developed that theme in my talks in a
way to captivate my audience. With as many little embellishments as I could.
As I said, it would pay homage to woman, the eternal, while it explored
and explained the inexplicable. Which is the enigma of modern woman.
I suppose I felt, if I were talking to a luncheon group who had full
tummies and was there ••. sort of a captive audience ••• , I was going to have
to woo them with words and kepp them awake . And not go on saying the same
thing.
We expected about 2,000,000 visitors into the building. We planned,
and they did, come through a courtyard on the west side. It took possibly
about 40 minutes to proceed through the pavilion and participate in the
exhibit areas. These four areas that we explored were the beauty, the
heart, the mind arid the hands of woman.
In the area of beauty there were presentations of fabrics, clothes,
costumes, fragrances and works of art. Or what makes woman beautiful.
There were sections of woman~s mind that told of her education, her
reasoning, her frustrations, with trips through woman's memories, you might
say.
The portion of woman's heart was intended, and I considered it did,
to show her love for God, family and country.
IRBY 6.
The exhibit on woman's hands presented works of art made by woman and
the actual theme of the pavili on in many ways was carried out in photographic
essays with pictures, f l ats, screen and film as interchanging components.
We intended it to be, and I think it was, a j oyous expression of what
women really are. Not a commercial message, although acknowledgement had
to be made to industrial sponsors. What we felt was the fact that ... what
we were very proud of .•. was the fact that the Woman's Pavi lion was to be
a permanent building after the Fair was over. We at first thought it was
going to be a part of the inter-American educational thing to be known as
the Inter-American Institute. That did not actually develop. It has now
become the headquarters of the South Texas Health Education Center. In
that vein it does conti nue in the tradition of womankind, to play a vital
part in meeting the knowledge explosion going on in the world today. That's
exactly what we intended to do tho we didn't know that the headquarters
of the South Texas Health Education Center would be that vehicle.
M: She (Vickers) mentions in the book of the intention of the building as
approved by the City: Interamerican Educational Center to be used for research
and development of education. What Happened to that plan? It just fell through?
I: I really don't know. There was an effort to reach that immediately following
the Fair. As everybody knows now, it was most worthwhile; it certainly brought
revenue into the city : but as a financial venture of its own, it c ost its
sponsors a great deal of money . Those sponsors knew, when they underwrote
it, that if the 7 million visitors didn't appear and if it was not a finan-cial
success, they stood to lose. Yes, they lost a lot. I have yet to
hear any one of them beef about it. I think it was the most beautiful
gesture on the part of our local business men. Now, I've heard a lot of
beefing but it didn't come from the fellows whose hands were in their
pockets shelling out the money. It came from the bystanders • .. all the
lamenting and that sort of thing.
IRBY 7.
nut as far as the Woman's Pavilion, it wasn't a financial success.
We had money worries and money r<'oes hanging over us .for a long time to
come but I will say that -through the generosity of contractors and the
helpfulness and diligence of Mr . Zachry, it .finally came to a very happy
end . None of us dug into our own personal pockets. The indebtedness was
either excused or paid off.
Getting back to the Woman's Pavilion 'de felt that we had to do this
ourselves; it was a woman ' s pavilion and we shouldn ' t farm it out. We
told the women we were trying to get to join us in our enthusiasm for the
v.roman 's pavilion that women would actually be doinq this . Women . That
it would be you, tha-t it would be I, saying, "Here I am" ... your wife, your
mother, your daughter, your friend , your next-door neighbor . .• a leader,
a follower, I'm your customer , your compe-titor, I'm all kinds of things.
I am many things . And I am more importatnt today than ever before in the
history of man . I am WOMAN!" That's 1-.rhat it r-.ras goinq -to say. When you
stop and think that that was eleven qears ago, who knows , maybe it was
part of the big womens' movement. I wasn'-t in it intending that; I was
just in it because I was proud of being a woman. I'm not a liber ated
woman; but I was a woman and I was proud of it and I wanted to join the
motion that •.•
M: You know that marvelous sonq: "I am r.voman" "I am strong, I am . .• "
I: That just turned me on . Well, that was my role in it. I'm trying
to give qou a cross section, a feeling , of ,.,hat the r•Joman 's Pavilion really
was . Not just what old imaginative, emotional Doris Irby qot out of it.
But I think it truly did for a great many people what it did for me.
And I felt this 'VIalJ about it; and I tried to "turn on" the people
with whom I was in contact with this little story: It isn ' t original
entirely with me. The young lady, whose name I have some place, turned
me on with it. fvhen I heard her, I thought, "r.,ell ..• " She didn't tell it
IRBY 8.
exactly like this, but more or less. So I used it throughout my talks .
It ' s a little bit on the melodramatic side, but so am I, so what? I told
them "where men have hewn a path through the wilderness, to push our fron­tiers
forward, their women have followed or been at their side. As this
little story expresses it, the woman of the covered wagon who wrapped her
silver bowl in a flannel nightgown and cherished it through the Indian raids
and the prairie storms has in essence placed her treasured heirlooms in
our hands. The Woman ' s Pavilion is our silver bowl; our opportunity to
give a woman's touch to Hemisfair ' 68. The rvoman ' s Pavilion challenges
the innate need of all women to make their contribution to man's culture."
So, that usually put their hands in their wallets, believe me.
M: You were getting money at these meetings?
I: We were getting memberships. We weren't saying .•. you know, we weren't
passing the plate and saying, "help us" ... we were getting $5.00 memberships.
M: Oh, you were?
I: Oh, yes. We gauged our success as a speaker by the number of member­ships
that we could turn up.
M: Under the financing, it says, "membership .•. " Then it's, "donations."
Did people give nice little sums?
I: Membership was a donation ... a donation for their membership. I don't
think we just sold ..•
M: That was $5.00 . Did people give you, say a thousand dollars?
I: Oh yes, people did do that.
M: Then it says, "special gifts" ..• did they give you things for exhibit,
things like that?
I: Yes. Maybe they gave planting for the courtyard ..• things like that.
M: And then it says, "underwriting by industry."
I: Right. And I have here someplace for you •.. the ones who were the most
IRBY 9.
outstanding .in their . • . here's some: Conrad Hilton •.• there were acknowledge­ments
in the building . .• RCA ... better scratch that. I don't know whether
we were seeking that or whether we really got that. Pillsbury, I think
General Electric, but I wouldn't be sure. We did have some industrial~
commerical sponsorship.
M: Any cosmetic people? You started out with beauty.
I: I don't remember. I can tell you this: We did have 12,000 members in
all; membexs from throughout the United States and several countries.
M: What did the $5. 00 entitle them to? Besides having their name on list.
I: They had their name on a roster.
MK: Could they get in free?
I: Yes, they got in free; their names on a roster; and they had the honor
of being one of t he builders, making a contribution to the Woman's Pavilion
of Hemisfair '68; this great expression of woman's participation in this Fair
that spotlighted her role in the world. The fact that it was eleven years
ago, means a lot to me; looking back on it now, it's almost like a prophecy.
We were asking the women of Texas and the women of the world, wherever
we were reaching them to add their support, their interest , their enthusaism,
to the confluence of civilizations gathering on our door step. And as you
probably know from other sources, that was the Hemisfair theme, the conf~uence
of civilizations.
We stressed that it was woman's nature and obligation to be there. Our
Woman's Pavilion was to be financed by industrial sponsorship, charter mem­bership,
and a 100% club participation, as well as by gifts from donors.
I think that answers your earlier question. As concerns industrial sponsor­ship,
several important non-competitive companies indicated their active
interest in active sponsorship. I don ' t think I have here, other than what
I just told you, the names of them.
IRBY 10.
Charter membership, $5.00 each; student membership, $1.00. Dona­tions
were welcome in any amount. Gifts to the Woman's Pavilion were
to be recognized in a special way: A thousand dollars and up, a name
on bronze or metal plaque in the pavilion; two hundred dollars up to a
thousand, the name permanently inscribed someplace in the building; donors
of less than two hundred dollars had their name in an honor roll book ..•
so that would be the membership group. "All charter members will have
their names permanently recorded in the Woman's Pavilion ." Gifts could
be made in honor of an individual woman, minimum of five hundred dollars.
Such gifts were to be recognized by recording the honorees name in the
library or in the garden. Clubs having a hundred percent membership were
presented a handsome, hand painted scroll, bearing the Woman's Pavilion
emblem and seal and had recognition in the garden of the Woman's Pavilion.
M: I didn't know the Woman's Pavilion had a special seal. Did they?
I: Oh yes. I have one of my little plaque of appreciation.
M: Do you remember who designed it?
I: I wish I did.
M: You mentioned the library. You hadn't mentioned that before. Was
that part of the permanent exhibit for the six months?
I: No. It was a part inside the Woman's Pavilion ..• a little area . You
understand my notes and my speeches were before the actual fruition; before
what we actually did.
M: I seem to remember going one time and there were a lot of cookbooks
which, of course, interested me.
I: Another thing, Esther, the actual design inside, actually the physical
setting up of the thing, was done by this exhibit and design specialist
from Neiman Marcus ••. I can't find his name at the moment. Under our womens '
chairmanship, (Alvin Colt)
IRBY 11.
M: Alvin Colt. She makes fun of the fact that it was a pavilion for
women but you had to turn to a man for the design.
I: I want to be honest about it. I sort of resented that, personally,
when it came about. But I suppose there was a time element in there and
to have a specialist ••. he worked under the direction of the chairman.
M: The book says, "Alvin Colt, a famous male exhibit designer from New
York, who had worked with Neiman Marcus in Dallas. He used his associates
Bill Reed and Horst Rosenberg to help fabricate the exhibit. However,
the theme consultant was a woman, Mrs. Elizabeth Ruggier."
M: People keep asking me "what was the name of the English woman who
had a lot to do with that?" Do you know what they're talking about, do
you know?
I: She was sort of a business manager, while it was open. That's why
they associate her with it so vividly. She was Mrs. Morrow. I mentioned
her on the Board of Directors.
M: She was an English woman?
I: She was the supervisor of the actual business part of it; in the act­ual
operation at that time. At the time that it was opened, all the Board
of Directors, the officers, were all there. Mrs. Hamlin had her office
in the building •.• but Ren~ Ren~Morrow, Mrs. Sam Morrow, was like a busi­ness
office supervisor. She was very prominent; she was before the public
in that capacity. And she worked along, shoulder to shoulder, with every
body else.
The exhibits would have been hard-put to come up to my expectations
with my type of imagination. It filled its role very well, I think.
M: May I interrupt here for a moment? I told Ethel Harris that I was
going to interview you this week and she said that she had urged and urged
you people to let her bring in people from all over the Western Hemisphere.
IRBY 12.
Women from South America and Mexico to do their weaving, to make their
bowls, to make whatever they did with their hands. She thought it would
have been much more interesting and much more germane to women to have
women working with their hands. And change them from time to time. She
wanted me to put this in.
I: She has told me that, too, and frankly I agree with her. My part
in that was that I was not so much in that phase, I was interested, but
my contribution was in wooing the membership.
M: You were in the preliminary works, weren't you?
I: I was a docent, a guide. The costumes for the docents, the guides;
were uniquely attractive they were pink and pumpkin~ We had one group
of the Junior Leaguers who were docents. I was a hostess. All of the
women who were on the Board of Directors, were in on the early stages
of planning and they were hostesses. And we had special days that we
came and spent there; maybe two days a week. We followed it through to
the end of Hemisfair .
M: Did you keep track of your attendance? Did you reach your two million?
Projected attendance?
I: I really don't know. That would have been something that would have
been in the office files; and our files I understand were sent to Trinity
University.
M: They're still sitting out there in cardboard boxes. They have some
Hemisfair material over at the DRT but pretty small ... one box. Something
really should be done about all those boxes out at Trinity. It's a shame.
I: I think so, too.
M: It was an historic event in San Antonio. That's why I was asked to
do this Hemisfair project.
I seem to remember that the exhibits changed from time to time.
IRBY 13.
I: They did. I can't remember at this point what •..
M: I remember there was a man, doing jewelry, up in the front. I can
still see him, making this fine, lovely, delicate jewelry. I don't remem­ber
any other special things.
I: I remember pictorial essays on women in history • . . big, beautiful pic­tures.
I remember there was a little mov~e that you went into and viewed
the show. Most of all I remember that the building was unique itself,
architecturally, it was a very •.•
M: It was a handsome building.
I: I don't know how well it lends itself to other uses but for an exhi­bit,
it was very impressive.
M: It was very chic.
I: The Board of Directors, those of us who felt deeply involved ,in this
creation have our hand prints on the back wall.
M: I'm glad you mentioned that. Ethel mentioned it .
I: Ethel made them. We all went out to Ethel's house and put our hands
down ana • ••
M: You know the thing I regret about that? I have two regrets. Ethel
has talked a lot about it. She wants it to be known more. One , the hand
prints are on the back of the building where nobody on earth knows about
them. Why is it on the back of the building?
I: Because, in the progress, during the women's exposition and all, you
followed a line ... you went up and you saw this; and you went down to another
viewing area; you exited through the back to the garden and right past
the hand prints.
M: Well, that explains it. Ethel couldn't explain to me why it was back
there.
I: The docents, the hostesses greeted you and kept you g6ing in the right
IRBY 14.
direction. The docents led you to that door ana right on out.
M: That's perfectl y logical. She's talking about asking somebody to put
a sign out to say, "See the hands of women." I occasionally walk over
on Hemisfair for lunch and I have walked back there to see who is back
there. The average visitor, and they are sparse, would have no idea those
hands are back there. The other thing, I wondered why she did them in
white because they are not very dramatic. Wouldn't it have been better
in terra cotta? She didn't know if she bad been invited to do them in white
or the material was available.
I: My husband was disappointed in my bands. Here is the name of bhe
lady • .• I never like to steal someone else!.;s thunder. Here is the young
woman, she was very beautiful, who worked on the Hemisfair staff for quite
a while. Her name was Sherry Clough~ey. She came to a meeting, a Con­servation
Society general meeting, and talked to us about the Woman's
Pavilion and she is the one who t~ld the little story about the silver bowl.
And that really turned me on. So in my notes it says, "in the words of
Sherry Cloughley." I felt it was such a nice way to say it. Then I did
have in my notes about the silver bowl .•• one of my wind-ups ••• I have "add
this" •.• for the young or the mod groups •.• "~f you become a charter member
of the Woman's Pavilion not only will your name be recorded in the pavi­lion,
but more important you will be holding the silver bowl of woman's
contribution to culture high for all to see and share its worth." In my
notes here, (you'd like this Esther) for the young or mod groups I spoke
to, I'd say, "Or if silver bowls are not so meaningful to you, you may
hold in your heart's eye, a copper candle stick, a wrought iron epergne
from Laredo, a scroll, a tapestry, the Holy Bible, anything, you want to.
When you support the Woman's Pavilion of Hemisfair ' 68 you~re standing
and being counted as a twentieth century woman, sharing in the responsi-
IRBY 15.
bility and the promise of this whole age.
M: You really did a marvelous job! When you went out, did you go as far
as Dallas in your perigrinations?
I: I went northwest. I went with a friend of mmne; she and I became
inseparable friends over having made these trips together.
M: Who paid for these trips?
I: The Woman's Pavilion.
M: They did have funds for that?
I: Yes. I think they did. I really can't remember. Let's, see, if it
was a day trip where you went out and came back, I think they would pay
for your gas but most of us didn't ask for it. We felt it was just a
contribution we made. If we were out three or four nights, I think the
bill was paid. I may have stayed out three nights.
M: You did go that far afield?
I: We went through Boerne, that way, up to Lubbock.
M: You did! This is terribly interesting to me because ••• I've done a
lot of Hemisfair interviews now and the pieces are beginning to come toget­her
nicely. Always, in every interview, the regret comes that the publi­city
was not good enough; that it didn't spread itself far enough. Seve­ral
people have said this to me, "People in Texas didn't know we were
having the Hemisfair." If you were out there, you, at lease, were spreading
the word.
I: More than half of my notes tell about Hemisfair and really lay it on.
In my style, you know, about the Tower, all of the exhibits, the buildings,
the entertainment for the children; and the uniqueness of our Fair; and
the fact that it was a walking Fair; the Sky ride; the waterways; all that
sort of thing. But I do believe at the last the promoters of the Fair
realized that they needed a concerted effort because they then called ••• (we
IRBY 16.
were going out on our own from the Woman's Pavilion) ••• on Woman's Pavilion
speakers to join with them in their group. I went out a couple of times
with Chuck Snyder. He had slides and I gave the talks.
M: I intend to interview Chuck, and Joanne Winnik, who worked with him.
I jotted this down from Vicker's book: She speaks of the City Council
having to O.K. this building because they were building ibton city-owned
land and because it was to be permanent, as so many buildings on Hemisfair
were not, they had to have permission. She begins with that.
I: We deeded the building to the city. It reverted to the city.
M: So they now own it. And then ••. three sectors of this theme, Women in
a Changing World, as she explains it, historical development, from pre­Columbian
to the present day. For that they used geographical displays.
Do you remember anything about that?
I: I do. I can't remember definitely. I think there were •.• perhaps
that was in the little cases. As you walked in, there were glass cases.
M: It says, with a geographic background and it goes on to say, "the
great mountain range from the Rockies to the Andes was reproduced in tex­tured
material with the use of different planes and colors against addark
fabric sky. Suspended from the ceiling was symbolic sun of plastic which
illuminated by light within it. On this background the locale and way
of life of women was shown by using historical objects where possible
or paper sculpture and reproductions. Each area was lighted individually
and a rotation system for dimming lights in part of the display was used
to emphasize other parts of it." Do you remember anything more about that?
I: That probably didn't impress me as much as it should have. I remember
that as you walked in on your right from the front door and you went around
to your right along the wall, that took place. I would never have thought
to describe it in just those terms. There were glass cases that held some
IRBY
of that. Depicted it; it had figures in it. Clay figures.
M: It says "hiscorical objects where possible."
17.
I: I don't remember whether they were early tools or stones, or pots.
M: Utensils? That may have been where Ethel got her idea .. . people coming
from the Western Hemisphere.
And then under Achievements, it says, "A symposium in all fields of
endeavor such as home, family, religion, sports, business and government
was presented in which a commentary gave answers, often controversial,
to the role of women in the confluence of civilizations in America."
Remember anything about those symposiums?
I: I don't remember the details of it but I remember it was there. I
believe Amelia Erheart-now that's where some of the pictorial presentations
came in •.. large pictures of many figures. I can ' t think who many of
them were at this time but probably Madame Curie, Amelia Erheart ••. you
jump from sports to science. There were no color lihes in the Woman 's
Pavilion. We had black women on our Board, we had, Latins on it; to me
that was very beautiful and very stimulating. I still have my black friends;
one of them lost her husband• ·not long ago and several of us from the Woman..l:s
Pavilion went to the funeral services. In fact, she called and asked
us to come. We were all there.
M: The third sector, as she calls it, was The Force of Fashion; it covered
the entire field: apparel, jewelry , accessories, cosmetics, and perfumes.
A nine by twelve foot mirrored box was used to show •.•
I: I remember that.
M: the evolution of fashion. And another portion showed the use of paper
in fashion throw-away containers for make-up, cardboard furniture, paper
clothes, etc." That's kind of faded, hasn't it? "The feature of the
exhibit was a film made about fashion and the technique
END OF SIDE I
IRBYn 18.
SIDE 2.
was used of superimposing the film over colorful background scenery with
musical recordings playing."
I: It seemed to me the space was about a fourth of this room (Oral Hist0ry
office). As you entered it, it sort of reminded you of a carnival where
you go in through a house of mirrors, or you go into a scarey house of
horrors ••• you circled a little bit and it had black walls so that light
would be excluded. You sat down in a small area ••. actua11y it was probably
bigger than I remember it . •. and watched the film unfold.
M: I remember the whole building as small, in my memory.
I: Actually when it's empty ... (I want to go back again •.• I haven't been
in a long time,) it's very large. I think it must be to house all that
it had in it. All those levels and everything.
I have to realize that my imagination carries me far beyond reality
a lot of times. I expected the exhibit to be more satisfying. There
were parts• 6f it I was delighted with. Parts that I had the same feeling
that Ethel had, I don't know if we should have let a man do all of this.
By and large, the interior designers had an enormous role to fill. I
suppose they did it as well as anybody could have. Needless to say, the
Woman ' s Pavilion in my opinion was a success. And it was a wonderful
experience.
M: Sure it was. I regret I didn't have anything to do with it. I was
teaching school. After it was over, then I did the markers on the historic
buildings •.. much too late, of course. The only contribution I made.
Interviewing all the people who had an important part to play, it ' s
becoming more and more interesting to me more and more a picture of a whole.
I: Looking at my notes, Mrs. Morrow was the vice president and chairman
of architectural exhibits. That was her role and she probably worked
IRBY 19.
with the designers; that's why she succeeded, I think, into the role of
sort of a business manager of the place when it actually opened.
M: Was she the one who went back to South America and Ethel went down to
visit?
Somebody from the Pavilion and Ethel went down to Peru expecting to
stay with her and it didn't work out. Somebody connected with Hemisfair.
I: No, I don't think so.
M: Do you have any remembrance of who the architect or architects were?
I: Cy Wagner, I think, was the architect of the building.
M: And Sherry ... he married that Sherry somebody.
I: He did? Cloyghil:eg?
M: Cy Wagner has such good taste. He has helped the Conservation Society
in many ways.
I want to pick up anything that Sue Vickers has said in her book
that we haven't got in here. Here it says, "A closed circuit television
and color video tape was used in the building during the Fair to display
the names of Charter Members on television monitors. A continuously moving
list in alphabetical order of the names was shown, interspersed with
scenes of the Fair. After the Fair, the Inter-American Educational Center
would get the equipment."
I; It had the unhappy faculty of breaking down. I think we kept it going
because that fulfilled our promise in our advance talks getting members ...
that their names would be displayed in the building. It wasn't a fact
that it didn't work; but it was a fact we had technicians in the building
constantly. Before we'd open in the morning, it was usually the case to
hear, "Get that thing working."
M: I can remember going back at one point and the admission had been raised
from fifty cents to a dollar. Eleven years ago, a dollar was a lot and
IRBY 20.
I can remember people complaining about that. Did you have a lot of
overt complaints?
I: I don't think so. It didn't come to may ears, anyway. I remember
feeling reluctant about.iit.
M: Mr. Zachry insisted upon that.
I: I believe he did. You can understand why. He was holding the bag.
Unfortunately, as you say, an empty bag. I think he was entitled to put
the pressure on.
M: Everybody realized that but I know there was a good deal of ••. there
was something in the paper.
I: I had a lot of second thoughts. I thought it was a lot.
M: Today we wouldn't think a thing about it; but eleven years ago, a
dollar was really a lot of money. For instance, you could go into the
Girard Exhibit for nothing; it was so beautiful.
Can you think of anything I haven't covered or that you haven't
covered that we need to add to this tape?
I: I think we should know who the founders were; who the people were
that brought it to fruition; I do think that Vivian Hamlin played a very
remarkable role; it isn't easy to keep that large a group of women, with
their varied and different backgrounds, as cohesive as she did and bring
it from a dream into a reality. Of course, Mrs. Meyers is a very dynamic,
very effective woman and has held major offices in the city .•• woman's
club ..• but she was president only for one year.
M: Did she come out of the Women's Club, is that where she originated?
I: I don't know. She's still inthe San Antonio Women's Club.
M: Since they originated the idea.
I: In all fairness, Esther, Vivian Hamlin kept the fires burning, kept
that group together and brought it through good times and bad; stayed
IRBY 21.
with it after the Fair was over and the bills were not paid and that
sort of thing. We really had developed into a kind of fraternity. For
many years we kept up with one another. It's been maybe three years •••
since we've met together for a Dutch luncheon someplace and talked about
it.
M: A parallel to that is Bi centennial and some of us got so close to
each other and have such a fondness for each other.
Doris, I appreciate so much your giving your time and your energies
and your talents to this interview. It's a very important one.
END OF TAPE I, SIDE 2