THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
SUBJECT: Fascinating Texans Curriculum Project
INTERVIEW WITH: Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 Tape)
DATE: 27 May 1995
PLACE: Shoney Inn, Kerrville, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Sarah R. Massey
M: Good evening. My name is Sarah Massey. I am a Program Specialist with the Institute of Texan Cultures. I am presently in Kerrville, Texas, at the Shoney Inn, and it is May 27th, 1995. I am here for the purpose of interviewing Mr. Amado Pena, jr. This tape is being made for the purpose of inclusion in the "Fascinating Texans Curriculum Project."
All right. At this time I would like to introduce Mr. Amado Pena, jr. And he's here sitting with me now, and he has been working all day at the Texas State Arts and Craft Fair; showing his images and his paintings. And is now rather tired! But has agreed to make this tape.
And I would like to start with my first question about your income. Seeing the prices of your pictures today and all the people that were around, are you rich?
P: (chuckle) I think you could say that I am rich. I'm rich because I, well, one, I've made a lot of money through the sale of my art work through the years. And when I look back at the first money I ever earned or, say, my first job I ever had and I was making thirty-six dollars a week; and at the time that I was making thirty-six dollars a week; that seemed like a lot of money. And I never really measured wealth. And then when I got my first big job I was making forty-eight hundred dollars a year. And I thought that was a lot of money. And now when I look back and I can make twenty thousand dollars in a day, I can say, probably, that I am rich. If I measure wealth that way, I guess I suppose I can say that I'm rich. I can look around at my worldly possessions and I can say that I have things, that I enjoy, that probably many years ago I would never have thought that I would own. And I guess maybe that's a way of measuring wealth. I am capable of doing things that I probably never thought that I could do, so I guess maybe I could measure my wealth that way. But to me it's kind of like ... I don't ... I don't do what I do every single day, for the long hours that I do, and necessarily think that the reason that I'm doing it is because it's going to make me very wealthy. I've been very lucky that I can make a living; that I can make a very good living with what I do. But I also believe that that kind of wealth comes and goes. You know. So, if I stop to think about what's going to remain with me or what is going to be memorable to me, and probably to the hundreds and thousands of people that I've ... probably have met, the sheer idea of knowing that because of what I do with pictures, has made an impact on me, and as well as a lot of people. That's the other side of wealth that I think I probably remember more often. And I think it stays with me - it makes more of an impact or has made more of an impact in my life. I think about ... I think about the idea that people think of me as a famous person, is a way of ... is wealth in itself. Because I never think of myself that way. And ... but I am constantly reminded of it. And I think the special things that have happened to me as a result of what I do is wealth, but it's not necessarily material.
M: Yes.
P: It's made a big difference in my life. It's changed me. And it's changed how I look about myself and the things around me. And it's changed, from my very early beginnings and where I grew up, and the way I grew up and ....
M: How did you grow up?
P: Very ... in a very, very simple household. Very straight and ... you know ... a very close family; a very traditional family. The idea of respect, the idea of working hard, the idea of ... you know ... things are the way they are because that's the way they are! (laughter) The idea of caring and loving, you know, for those that are close to us. I think that when I look back at our family I think we weren't rich, we were poor actually, when it comes down to monetary ... description of a household, I suppose. We were very poor but we got by. You know. We never ... we never ... you know ... we always had food at our table; we always were adequately clothed. My parents took very much care of us. You know, they believed very strongly in education. Their philosophy was: we don't want you to be what we were; we want you to be better.
M: And what were your parents?
P: Well, my dad was a fireman for many years; my mom was a Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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housewife. And they took care of their families at the same time as they were taking care of themselves. And ...
M: Did your grandparents live with you?
P: I had one grandparent that lived with us, my grandfather on my mother's side. But even my grandparents that did not, my dad always took care of them. My aunt, you know, kind of the extended family, everybody took care of everybody else. So, I guess, you know, I grew up what you would call "The Pena Barrio." But you know when you ... in those days when you're growing up in that kind of an environment, you don't really think of it as being any different. You don't see differences! You see what is there. You don't measure wealth or you don't measure ... you knew that the people on the other side of the ... in our days it was not necessarily the people on the other side of the tracks, but the people in the Heights obviously were rich people. They had green lawns and two cars and whatever. And you were very much aware of that but I don't think I ever really felt like I wanted to be like them. I never really felt like I wanted to be in their neighborhood. It wasn't something I desired, it wasn't something that I looked ... in fact, we didn't even ... friends, when I was growing up in high school, we didn't even date anybody that was of that part of town. Not that we didn't want to, we just didn't know any of them ... anybody in that area. That would be ... we had friends obviously, but not in that sense. So it was, I would say, pretty Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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much what you would expect in that kind of neighborhood environment.
M: I noticed at the fair this morning that your sister was with you.
P: Right.
M: And a cousin?
P: No. Sister and friends.
M: Sister and friends.
P: Right.
M: So you're still carrying the extended family with you?
P: Yes. Very much so. Yeah. My sister has been working with me for quite a long time. Now my neice works with me, a couple of my neices work with me. My father, in fact, after he retired has ... is involved in his own ... in his own ways involved with the art work. Which is, again, you know, one of the things about ... that I spoke about wealth that is not necessarilly measured in monetary. Is the fact that I've seen both my parents become part of my art world, which when I was growing up and I was doing art ... there was probably very little understanding. Of course I was on the outside, I never asked the question, "Well, do you really understand what I'm doing?" (laughter) Because it wasn't a question to be asked. But ... and I think it's because their concern was to make sure that we were taken care of and so the participation was not there, and which was acceptable. Their biggest support is Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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probably the fact that they left me alone to do what I wanted to do, what I liked doing. In fact, when I left teaching and decided that I was going go on my own to do my art work they couldn't understand because I was leaving a job that was very secure. And there was ... I don't think ... they didn't say nothing ... of course I was a grownup obviously, they couldn't tell me not to do it, but I think that they were really concerned that it ... that I was leaving something and going ... something secure and going to something that had no ... uncertainty in the future. But their biggest support is the fact that they didin't get in the way of it. As well as they'd never get in the way when I was doing it as, you know, a ten-year old. You know, or as a high school or whatever.
M: Okay, let's take a little break right now.
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M: Amado, at this point I'd like to ask about when you decided to become a teacher.
P: Well, that was pretty much decided for me, believe it or not. When I told my ... my father believed very strongly in education and he believed that my only inheritance, you know, we were not going to inherit money because, obviously, you know, he was not a rich man. And even at the job that he had he didn't feel like he was ever going to be wealthy, from that standpoint, from monetary-wise. So he felt like our education was going to be our inheritance. And he did two things: One, he pushed Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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us into being good students, making good grades, and our future was to go to college and become a professional. No, so, he ... I was twenty-one years old and I'm still bringing my report card home, so he definitely made an impact on us. And the other thing that he did was the fact that I wanted to be an artist he pretty much decided that there was no future in being an artist but being an art teacher was more realistic. And I had an uncle who was a teacher, so he used him as kind of ... in fact, I went to the same school. Not necessarily because he went there but because it was the only one we could afford to. And so I, you know, I did what, in respect to him, I did what I was supposed to do and I went off to college and received my degree and looked for a teaching job. And I did not know that I wanted to be a teacher, I did it because I, out of respect for him, that's what I was going to do. And, this was back in 1965, and when I started teaching I was very fortunate. The chain of events that kind of probably for some reason happened and it set the foundation for future, my future teaching career. And that is that I, because I didn't want, or I didn't know how I would be as a teacher. I didn't know that I wanted to be a teacher, I just did it because that's what I was going to do. I landed a job in my hometown, in the same high school that I was a student, and teaching in the same art department that I was a student at. And what made it ... what made it ... I guess my ... the very first point of excitement for me Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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in terms of quote - unquote, teaching, was the fact that I had landed an art teaching job in the high school that I graduated from and I was going to be an art teacher in the same classroom that I was ... I had very many happy experiences as a student. And not really knowing how I was going to perform, what happened to me was that I used my high school art teacher as a kind of - he was like my ghost following me around. And I remembered a lot of the things that I did as a student and the way that he treated us. And so I kind of very unofficially adopted some of his ideas, you know, I remember them because they were so fresh to me. There were a lot of memories on the walls; there were the ribbons that I'd won when I was a student, there were ... And I was going to teach the same things that he taught. And I was going to use the same materials and so that kind of started my ... that was basically the guide that I used. And slowly, before I knew it, I was having a great time with it. I enjoyed it. And I felt like I could be a good teacher. And I felt like, you know, I had qualities that, you know, that made me a little bit different than most, I felt, because my concern was very much the kids. But not just that I was really concerned about art. I was really concerned about how art, how important it was to me and how important it should be. I felt like it was so important to me that it should be important to all of my students! And so I started to build a philosophy around that. That many years later, actually set Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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the foundation for what I consider to be my philosophy now, which ... I've been out of education for fifteen years, but the last seven years that I taught I finally sort of released my ... that ghost that followed me around. And I said - now I am, you know, this is me, and this is my ... what I believe art education should be, what I believe I can contribute to the kids. Even though I had already done that, but somehow it seemed like because I went to a school that was brand-new and it was my department now. And somebody said, "It's your department, you're in charge." And I already had all those other years to set the framework and the last seven years that I taught I feel like I really, you know, set it in stone, to what I believe now.
M: And were you teaching in Crystal City?
P: I taught in Crystal City before I went to Austin. The last seven years that I taught was in Austin, Texas. But prior to that I spent two years in Crystal City as an art supervisor and an art teacher both.
M: And can you tell us something about what was going on in the school at that time?
P: Well, if you're making in reference to the ... the reason I went to Crystal City was ... part of it had to do with a restructuring of the entire system by circumstances that had happened prior to my going there. Which was for the first time a community in the State of Texas actually took charge of their Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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own destiny. And it started out through political means, with education. The community ... it started with the students wanting better education, better ... which became a political issue. And through the politics and the system they were able to, you know, to use that to restructure their ... So the politics had made the changes in their educational ... It so happened that the president of the school board was an old college friend of mine that I went to school with. And when he went to A&I to recruit I was graduating, I was getting my graduate degree, and he was looking for ... to set up an art program in his school system. So I was ... I went over there and applied for the job. Prior to him going there I was already involved in student ... I was a student activist in the art department. (laughter) There was a period prior to my graduation, prior to 1968, well, 1970, between 1969 and 1970, '68, '70, where I returned to school. And in the process of returning to school my work, my art work had started to take a new twist. And it was influenced, as a student it was, that's where it actually began. As an art student I ...it's kind of like ... in 1965 after I graduated from college I set up my first studio. And I continued to paint. And I was doing imagery that was ... I guess you could say it was radical, but not in the sense of a political radical. It was just radical in the sense of art! And I didn't really know, it was just something I really felt very strongly about, imagery and the Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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color and design, so it was pretty abstract for, I guess, as an artist where I was located it was extremely radical. But the struggle within myself was searching for something that had some relevancy to being creative. I knew that I was creative as an artist but I didn't have content that was really ... it wasn't really making the impact that I really wanted, that I was looking for. And so when I went back ... when I went back to school as a grad student, through circumstances in the department and the politics that were going on at the time, the Chicano movement going on, I became involved with some groups and found ... the transition was very natural to politicize the times through the art; record what the Chicano movement was about. The participation in the movement for me was, as an artist, and the artist's role, it's like everybody had a role in the movement; the politicians did the politics, the poets did the poets, the musicians did the music, and the artists did the arts, and it went on and on. The historians did the history. (laughter) And so I kind of became a leader in that sense, because I was one of the few that was in the department at the time. There was a few others. And proceeded to bring out imagery in art, you know, as different mediums to portray what was going on with the movement.
M: Do you ... can you trace your identity and your evolution in terms of your own ethnicity ... through ... and your heritage ... your development, I guess is what I'm looking at, your Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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development as a person and your identification with your ethnic background ... in the evolution of your art?
P: Uh ...
M: I am looking at where you started and the first images to the images, you know, in the Chicano movement, to the images that you have now.
P: I can trace ... right ... I can trace ... through my art work you can trace the ... a start ... a start which has to do with finally understanding who I am. Yeah. You can. Through - and it's kind of flip-flop. The - for example, the first images have to do with the present times that not necessarily affected me directly, but affected all of us that were of Mexican descent. The ... and it was two-fold. And we all did the same thing. It was two things ... two things that the movement was saying: One, is you have to be proud of who you are and your culture; and we can trace our culture to Mexico and we can trace our culture to all of the cultures that have come. So we handpicked. We handpicked the Aztecs. We handpicked ... probably we didn't handpick the Spaniards, but we definitely handpicked the underdogs. We handpicked Zapata, and we handpicked Poncho Villa and we handpicked ...(inaudible)..., we handpicked certain images that, to us, that this is our birth. And then we, at the same time we handpicked Che Guevara, we handpick Corky Gonzalez, and Cesar Chavez and ...(inaudible name)..., and the low-riders and all Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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of those things. And those were things that were happening "now." And so we were integrating or flip-flopping and ... but we were saying the same thing. The whole thing that it did was - we are trying to find ourselves and through the art ... what the artist did through its images is to try to help everybody else identify those images. Identify those things that were ... we saying that the guy sitting down with the sombero and the burro and the catcus was not necessarily us! Or the guy with the big moustache was not necessarily us. There were other symbols that were us as well. And so through those images we identified who we were. You know, we did.
M: And you created new images.
P: We created images that recorded our history; where it hadn't happened before.
M: Uh-huh.
P: I mean, where in any history book did you ever see Zapata being cited out as a hero of Mexican people? Of Mexican-American people for that matter? Or Cesar Chavez for example? Or ... you know, so those were things that we, like I said, we went back and forth. We borrowed and we kept on borrowing. But I think the images that were, the true images were the ones that we in this country had, and we lived with every single day.
M: Uh-huh.
P: So there was a period. That was it. That was the start. Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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That was an identity. That was saying - this is really who I really am. If you want to know, if I want to know about myself, this is really who I am. But it only came ... you know what? ... it only came when issues were to vote ... I didn't do that when I went to bed, I didn't do that when I went to dinner, I didn't do that when I visited with my parents. We only did it when we were with our own peers, we only did it when we were rallying, we only did it when, you know, ....
M: Yeah.
P: And so, you know, that's the way we were. We only did it when we sat around and discussed philosophy.
M: Yeah. There was a time period in all of our lives I think, yeah.
P: Yeah. And so, you know, images were portrayed that way.
M: Uh-huh. All right, let's take another break.
M: Concludes side one of tape one.
END OF SIDE 1, TAPE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.
SIDE 2.
M: After that time period of the Chicano images that you were doing, was there another period? Or did you go right straight into the Indian images that I see you painting now?
P: What happened, because for so many years the intensity of what was going on at the times and my committment to documenting the times and the images that were necessary, I reached the point where I was tired of doing them. I wanted Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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to talk about us, about myself, about our people, and there were other ways of saying those things, of saying good things about our culture or bad things about our culture, that ... not only ... that they weren't ... that blood and guts were not the only thing that were required. You know, it seemed like that was what most of us were dealing with. And so I was tired. I decided that I didn't want to do that anymore. And it took one image, one specific image that really kind of just made me stop. I did a portrait of a little boy that had been shot through the head in Dallas and the image was so powerful that it just made me sick. And I decided that I had enough. I needed to find something else, some other way of talking about ourselves. And so I stopped doing work. And I had made a trip to Mexico and had found through, I just wanted to see art, period. Came across some very simple Indian drawings that people from the Southern part of Mexico were doing, through their craft, recording their everyday events, in a very primitive way and very simple way. And I said, "There it is. Right there. They're talking about themselves, but it's ... there's no blood. I mean, they are telling us about what they do every day. They're telling us about what's in their backyard. They're telling us about, you know, how far they have to walk to get water. And it's a pretty picture." And so I said, "Hey, you know, that part of us we never really took time to talk about." So I came back and borrowed their approach Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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to doing that. And I threw away all of my academics, I threw away all of the ... and started looking in my backyard. And started looking at the things that were part of our culture, part of me, part of my children, and started making pictures of them and the things that were so beautiful about us that we never really took time to record. It seemed like politics were the ones that were dominating - the issues. And so I did many, many, many pictures of things that were relevant to our people but not necessarily had to make an impact on anybody else, but a lot of it's on me. And everybody who saw it could see and understand that it was ... it was something that they lived. It was something that they knew, but they never saw it in pictures. So I went through a period of doing that. And I ... I don't remember how long I spent doing that, but I had the opportunity to travel West and as a result of going and doing a show on the road I ended up in New Mexico and I came across ... because all this time when we were doing this whole Chicano movement it seemed like we were so isolated with our part of the world. Texas was very different than California. And Chicanos were different in California. They were different in New Mexico. They were different in Arizona and they were different in Colorado. And we knew that but we never really came in contact with them that much ... or at least I didn't. And when I went to New Mexico, through just being in the right place at the right time, I came across some things Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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that I didn't understand too well. You know. And it was kind of the existent ... the very ... it was kind of like in that place it seemed like the mixture of the cultures was not just there, but it was also alive and moving around. And it made me wonder - are we any different than that? You know. And we're not. But it was a kind of thing to me that I looked at myself, and I looked at who I was, and I looked at - and it seemed like we never really took the time to say - well, you know, if you really look at your blood, I mean I'm not White, I'm not German, or Irish. I've been given this - quote - this name, but some how or other I think that the name is just something that I've accepted. And there's more to it than that. And I had to really say - well, if I'm not, you know, what is? What is a Mexican-American? I mean really take and try to analyze that. What is it? Well, for one it's just a title that somebody gave me. But if I look at my skin or if I look at my blood, if I look back and see how I was created or you know, where this ... if it's blood that we're talking about, then there's something else. And through ... just the oral, because I don't ... see, I didn't grow up in a reservation. I didn't have that. And just through our oral history, you know, I found out that my mother's bloodline came from the Yaqui's and so if in fact that is a source, then, yeah, I can relate to this thing of being mixed. I mean I can relate of that Indian blood being, and I didn't isolate myself. I think Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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all people from ... that have that, who's parents came from that side of the border, or were born here, but who's ancestor ended up being ... I mean, nobody planted a Mexican in Texas! (laughter) You know.
M: They were here!
P: They were - you know, it's kind of like ... but that's where I decided that I ... that because, you know, this was really the truth. This is really the truth. We're mixed. And I, you know, don't have anything documented other than oral. And so I accepted that. And I said, well, maybe there's a start there. You know. I can relate to this mixed, I can relate to the crossover of the cultures. And so I started looking and trying to see where - you know I'm here trying to make pictures out of all of - trying to make sense of this in the sense that I want to make pictures of it. So I start looking at where the two cultures, the Native and - and I use the Spanish for a lack of a better word - as a "mixed" existing in this region. And looking at what - where they have, not necessarily - well, they intermarried obviously, there's the mixed blood - but I'm looking at ... I'm looking for visuals, I'm looking for things that I can make some sense of. And there were ...
M: It sounds like you really identified with the Indian part of the background from Mexico. And it was the simple life in the backyard that you initially saw when you went to Southern Mexico. And then when you came back, you were bringing back, Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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through your mother, the Indian blood of the Yaqui that you identified with. And that there's other images too.
P: Right. And the only place that those became real life ... alive, for some weird reason, was in the Southwest. I mean to me the Southwest is Brownsville, Brownsville, Texas.
M: (laughter)
P: But in New Mexico it became a very, like I said, it became a very, it was alive, this whole idea. I mean you don't see it in Kerrville, Texas, or you don't see it in Laredo, Texas. You don't see it in Brownsville, Texas.
M: (laughter) Yeah. It's vibrant there.
P: It's been buried. But here is a place where it is facing you every single day. And every single day you come in contact with it. And I was very fortunate to have been taken ... my adopted grandfather was a Medicine Man from San Ildephonso, who could relate to what I was trying to find out about myself. And this is nothing mystical, this was just conversations about ... well, I have a Spanish, you know, grandfather too! (laughter) And I'm a Tigua [Tiguex] too, I'm trying to .... I said, well, okay, so how do we relate? I mean we speak two languages. He spoke three: he spoke Tigua, Spanish and English. You know, his name was this but yet he carried Pena on the other side of it, you know. He was ... he had his Indian religion and then he went to church on Sundays. You know, so there was two ...Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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M: (laughter)
P: ... kind of like. But what I said, here was this idea of two bloods, but they were alive and walking. And it made sense to me. I believe that. I believe ... and that's where I use the term "mestizo," extensively, because to me if I were to identify myself, truly, that's what I am. I've been given a label of "Mexican-American," I've been given the label of - or I've used the label of "Chicano." But in true, in reality we're of mixed.
M: Uh-huh.
P: I know in my blood that I'm not Irish, I'm not English, I'm not German, I'm not ... so somewhere it had to come. And really, if we look at our neighbor, if we look at our ancestors, no matter ... there was ... the Mexican people of today are not English or Irish, they're mixed! Somewhere they were created, either they were full-bloods or they're mixed from somewhere!
M: (laughter) Somebody asked me today what I was, and I said well, if you really want to know it's a European mongrel. You know. I mean what can I say.
P: But that's what we are.
M: Yeah.
P: We are of that. We just happen to be so ... and I'm not a crusader. All I'm saying is that for me I accept, you know, this is to me what the truth of it is, to me this is who I am. Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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And if I have to fill out the blank, and I've been capable of filling out the blank and I've written in there "mestizo." But ... and that's where I began to see images and I began to use these images and I began to ... See, I tell people, I really don't paint Indians. When you think Indians with feathers and war bonnets and war shields and riding horses and bows and arrows, I don't. I do the mixture. I do the things that influences and what to me the both cultures have shared. You know we shared many similar philosophies, the Circle of Life we share. We have it in different ways, but we believe the same thing. We share that which is, you know, respect. I mean when my grandfather said "respect the land," that means if he took care of it he was going to plant corn and he was going to grow corn. I mean that's no different ... he was doing that in my backyard in Laredo, Texas. And I saw him take care of the land, you know. Like Native people do. You know. So it's nothing that has to do with such a spiritual, philosophical kind of thing. It has to do with understanding that this is the way it is. And it has to do with doing that.
M: I think it also has to do, I mean this is just a personal thing is, but I think it has to do with values and what you believe in too. The importance in family, the role of the extended family, the responsibility for all.
P: Right!
M: The sense of not destroying that which you touch. Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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P: And because of the art I can ... I have been able to do that. If I was an attorney, if I was a banker, if I was a shoe salesman, I could not do that. But because of the art I do that. Because it allows me to seek those images. So if I don't do that, then I short-change what I'm supposed to do, my role, what I believe I should do. I really feel like I will cheat that, being that artist, being able to put it into pictures.
M: I'd like to take one more little break and then I have one final question I'd like to ask you.
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M: Many of the Indians, that I'm familiar with, talk about the dilemma and the difficulty of living in two worlds, the Indian world and the White world. And I see you trying to juggle three worlds. Has that been any difficult ... has there been any problem in that for you?
P: I think that if it - probably if I had thought of it in terms of how difficult is it going to be for me, it probably would have been. What I have been probably blessed with is the fact that before I realized how hard it was going to be, I was already in it.
M: (laughter)
P: And sort of missed the preparation and through, and I think because of my work, and because of what I believe I should be doing with my work, and it crosses everything from being a Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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teacher to ... as a teacher I never let any obstacles get in the way. And what I could apply in the White man's world as a ... with my teaching philosophy, crossed all barriers. Because I didn't care who was going to get in the way. My focus was the kids and to do whatever I needed to do to have them experience the ... have the best experience that they've ever had, through art. So when I focused on that I didn't care who got ... who ... what obstacles were going to be there. So I ... I just was so focused that nothing got in the way. What I think helped was because we were successful that they said ... they didn't create problems ... because we were successful, the kids were successful at what they started out to do, they proved to everyone that art was important and that they believed in it and they ... you know. So that cleared a lot away. I think with my work as it crosses ... it's crossed so many barriers, so many. I mean, it's amazing. It overwhelms me. I still to this day cannot ever envisioned, because I remember when I was doing images that were very political and very strong, again I was focused. It didn't matter who came in contact with them and how it impacted them, how it affected them, plus or minus. What I was focused on was that they get done, and that they be seen, and that ... I wasn't concerned about acceptability. And I pretty much did the same thing all the way through and because people were not ready for them, they didn't know how to deal with them so it was so easy to say, Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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"Yeah, I like it. I really ... it's new, it's fresh, it's whatever." And before you know it, everybody was familiar with it. Before you know it, everybody liked it. Before you know it, everybody wanted one. Before you know it, through all of the many different processes it was reaching an immense audience. And very few people actually maybe had time to make choices as far as - this is not acceptable. Everybody, Native people, local people, foreign people, something about what was in the pictures ...
M: Spoke to everyone.
P: ... spoke to everybody. And because that was what I was focused on I just didn't ... wasn't concerned. First, I wasn't concerned whether it was acceptable or not. I wasn't concerned whether it was the right size, the wrong size, the wrong ... I wasn't concerned with that. I was concerned with ... this is what I know, this is what I've learned and this is how I want to make pictures of this. And it became through ... I mean I know I worked really hard, but it ... a lot of different ... like somebody's been watching over me and got 'em going in the right direction, the right places, the right audiences and I never had to measure it. And so that made it easy to cross over and say, I can be anywhere and I can speak of this and whether you accept it or not it doesn't matter, because it's going to talk to all people. It concerns all people. It's meant for all people. It's not meant for just one side Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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of the community, you know. For one group of people, for Native people, for brown people, for ... no, it's meant for everybody, because it speaks of ... it speaks of a people and when you do that ... I say this about, for example, I say this about what you need, because when people try to classify my work, all I can say is if you are going to try and classify it and I have to come up with a classification, it's not Indian art, it's not Western art, it's not Cowboy art, and it's ... it's a little bit contemporary, I can actually say that it is contemporary, it's not an objective ... it's none of those things. So if we're going to say ... I'd have to say that it impacts a regional part of our world. It has to do with the people from the region. But one of the things I can say about all of those things, about Native art, about Cowboy art, about Western art, about Southwest art, that's where I fall in, because if it's regional, that where it is because this is where I am. Is the fact that the art form ... where it starts is with the heart and soul of the people. That's where it starts. If you don't understand that, if you don't understand what it means, not what it looks like, but what it means, then you cannot make pictures, I cannot make pictures of this. And so it starts with that. Now, ...
M: ......... hold a thought in your hand, that you made from the earth.
P: That's exactly right. And when that, to me, there's a Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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gift that transcends and translates that through what I'm able to do with it. That's ... that when people see it ... like I said ... it crosses over. Everybody has something to touch and something to smell and something to really sense about that that makes an impact on them. And the only source that I can think of is that it comes from the heart of the people, the soul of the people, and what they're all about. That's where it comes from. And that's why it reaches everybody. And I don't care how I interpret it, I don't care if it is a ten-foot painting or a little postcard, it don't matter! But it's that. And it's amazing, it's amazing how ... And I know, again, I know and I don't stop to think about it, I don't stop to analyze it, I know it's there and it's coming and I understand it and I'm focused and I let it ... just do it. I don't see it until somebody comes up and says something to me. I don't see it until somebody says, "You know, if this picture hadn't been in my room I would have had no will to live."
M: That's powerful.
P: That's ... yeah ... whew! And I don't know of any other source other than that it's because it comes from the people. From having ... And because I do art it's given me the time to soak all of this up.
M: You are a very, very fortunate and lucky man.
P: I am. I am a very wealthy man because of that.
M: Yes, you are, you are. In much more than money.Amado M. Pena, jr. (1 tape)
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P: (laughter) That's right.
M: Amado, thank you.
P: Thank you.
END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.