INTERVIEW WITH: PAT THATCHER
INTERVIEWER: Esther MacMillan
DATE: August 1, 1984
PLACE: The Institute of Te xas Cultures (nC)
T: Well, this is how I got here .
M: All right, Pat, it's quite appropriate for you to be putting your
ITC memories on tape today since this is the beginning of your last
month here, the first of August. And here is Boss Lady of the Exhibit
Floor. And I'd like to go back to the beginning.
Dave T.ller, according to Joe Perry, left right after HemisFair
closed. And I have this question: And you came right on, is that right?
And if that is not right, then you were here all along. Is that it?
T: Well, sure, I was here all during HemisFair.
M: All right. How did you get the job during HemisFair in the first
place?
T: It's a very interesting story. Do you want me to tell that story?
t4 : Yes, do.
T: O.K. I had wanted to get something to do with HemisFair. I wanted
to work . It was right after I lost my husband.
M: Oh, it was?
T: And so I watched the papers and I found a blind ad . And it said,
"Hostesses Wanted- -mature women ." So I answered it . I went to the-­I
guess it was the First National Bank downtown--and I was interviewed
out of about two hundred, maybe.
M: Really?
T: So when I wrnt in, the Director of the, whi ch I found out later,
l
THATCHER 2.
T: was Bill Robinson, and I sat across the desk, just like I am sitting
across from you and he said to me--he said this and that and you know,
everything else. And I said, "Vlould you mind just turning over my
application and let me talk. I can talk much better than I can write
what I can do."
M: Oh!
T: So he turned it over and we talked. He still wouldn't tell me what
the position was or anything about it.
M: Oh, you didn't know?
T: Nothing about it, absolutely nothing about it.
N: How did you know it wasn't a hostess in a dance hall?
T: Well, it had to do with something with HemisFair.
I~: Oh, it did?
T: The ad said, "something to do with HemisFair."
I~: Oh, I see. Oh, I didn't know that.
T: And so I talked quite a bit to him and told him what I had done
and all the things that I could do. And so when I got ready to leave,
I said, "I know, don't say, 'We'll call you ... ,
11: Did you?
T: Uh huh. I said, "I know that story."
M: (Laughter)
T: So I left.
And it was that afternoon, I was on my way out to be a Bluebird
out at t·lethodist Hospital; I had my uniform and my shoes in the back of
my car; and on the way out there I happened to thi nk, "If he ca 11 s me at
home, I won't be there." So I stopped at a friend's house and called and
THATCHER
T: th" mi Ilute I Cd 11 ed, the woman that answered the phone. sai d.
"Mrs. Thatcher, don't worry, you have the job."
~I: No kidding! How wonderful. Just like that.
T: So I still didn't know what it was.
M: You didn't? (Laughter) Oh, for heaven's sake.
3.
T: So the first day I came to work was right before the Fair opened.
t~: Yeah.
T: And oh, it was a busy beehive. You can imagine.
r~: I can imagine.
T: And they had the party--cocktail party--out on the stones on the
Fountain. And it was lovely. Just lovely.
M: Here at The Institute.
How did you happen to get here if you didn't know where you were
going?
T: Well, I was told where to report to, you know .
M: At The Institute.
T: Uh huh. And I used to come down here while this building was being
built ; when they built the Skyride; when they built the Hilton Hotel,
I'd come down here every so often and I used to see this wall of earth
around our building and I couldn't imagine-- "What in the world is that
going to be?" I had no idea .
M: No.
T: So an)'l'lay I got the job and bacame a hostess in the art gallery.
M: I don't know what the art gallery is.
T: That was "The Sphere of Art in Texa s." It was a modern art show.
M: Hhere was it?
THATCHER 4.
T: In the basement .
M: In the basement of The Institute?
T: Yes . Oh, it was a beautiful show. Bill Robinson was the Director
and so he had all the different artists over Texas in the d·isplay .
M: Yeah.
T: And it was the most beautiful gallery. They had sculptures,
paintings, everywhere.
M: Really?
T: I have pictures of it.
M: I'd like to see that because Joe tells about The Institute opening
when the basement was full of rubble .
T: Well, it was. But our art show was completed by the time it opened.
11: Well, where was the gall ery then?
T: But the gallery was there. By this time the rubble was only in
what later became offices and the break room. Yeah, the paintings were
hung.
M: In what we call the gallery now?
T: Yeah, all along the walls.
M: And the workmen were still working down there?
T: Yes, but not in the gallery.
M: That must have been a challenge.
T: We had two policemen on duty at all times to protect the pai ntings .
We had vi sitors from allover the world and it was very much a success.
M: Was it?
T: And what used to ti ckl e me was--I 'd see a man and his wife and
children and they'd come down the s tairs and he would invariably stay
THATCHER 5.
T: at the end of the stairs over there and stand there, and I'd go over
to him and I'd say, (spoken very sweetly) "Don't you want to go through
the gallery?" And he'd say (in a kind of whisper), "Ah, 1 don't like
this kind of art. (spoken strongly) 1 don't like this at all."
M: Yeah.
T: And l' d say, "We 11, 1 tell you what . Let me take you around and
show you a few thi ngs and maybe you' 1 1 change your mi nd."
M: Really?
T: So 1 would .
~1: You did!
T: And 1 remember one painting, it was by Casebier (Cecil).
~1 : Yeah .
T: At Trinity .
M: Was he at Trinity then?
T: Yes. And he had a painting almost as big as this wall .
M: Yeah.
T: And when you first looked at it, it looked like a scene of clouds
and mountains, water, so forth and so on. And it ~Ias in acrylics.
M: Yeah.
T: So, 1 'd say to the man, "Now what does that look like to you?"
And he'd say, "Oh, I can tell what that is. That's for real!" And so
when he'd get all through with his conversation, I'd say to him, "Well,
no really, that's not what it is . It' s modern art . " lind he'd say,
"Well, what is it?" And I'd say, "Well, it's a woman lyinl) on a chaise
lounge with a pegnoir on, and the sky and the mountains are her boobs."
M: (Laughter)
THATCHER
T: And he'd say , "Well, I'll be damned!"
M: Was it true, or did you just make that up? It really was true?
T: True.
11: I mean, the picture really was a woman ...
6.
T: Yes. Yes. See, that's what modern art is ... you always see different
things in it. This is what I used to tell the public. When they didn't
like modern art; when you buy what we called in the art gallery at that
time--we called it "Candy Box." If it was a still life, that was candy­box
art. If it's modern, every time you look into that painting, you
ought to be able to find something different. There were several we had,
I could go on and on. But this was the idea. Sometimes I would have as
many as 200 people listening to me talk and tell about these paintings.
M: You're kidding . What kind of training did you have to have for that?
T: None.
M: You didn't have any?
T: I have a gift. I have a gift. That's all I can tell you. I don't
know where it comes from .
M: But they didn't have to put you through some long drawn out deal.
You just walked right in and started doing it.
T: Uh huh.
M: We 11, I' 11 be ...
T: And Bill Rob ins on was amazed. When I said to him one day--I sa id to
him in the beginning, I said, "Bill, I'd like to meet these artists."
And he said, "Naw, you don't have to--you don't need to meet the ... "
He said, "Anybody that can talk like you're talking, you don't need to
meet the artists. "
THATCHER
M: Were you a sole--the only one down there?
T: No, we had shifts. Two ladies at a time.
M: Oh, you did.
7.
T: And that's where I met Selma. Selma was on a diffe rent shift than
I was.
M: But she was doing the same thing.
T : No, no, no.
M: Oh.
T: No. They were--the rest of them were just hostesses. They'd go
around and talk to people, you know, about art and show it to them. But
they didn't go into depth because they couldn't do it. They didn't know
how to do it.
M: Oh, I see.
T: So this was why Bill was so--oh, he was just absolutely fascinated.
And so as Mr. Baker and Mr. Shuffler would go around through the gallery
and they would listen to me and watch me, and Mr. Shuffler kept saying
to me, "I want you to write this all down. I want you to write all
this down--what you're telling these people, for posterity."
So I kept saying, "Well, I can't write and blah, blah, blah." So
towards about the last month of the Fair, he got real angry with me.
M: Oh?
T: He said, I don't care what you--how you write it or anything about
it, but I want a record of this."
And so, finally I worked real hard at it and the only time I could
get it so that it was readable, J would put it in the first person,
which J did. And then it flowed. But for me to sit and write, I can't
do it. But J can talk.
THATCHER 8.
M: It's too bad we didn't have a tape recorder then.
T: Uh huh. So anyway when the Fair closed, it was one of the most
beautiful parties that I've ever been to in my life. And everyone that
was anybody in Texas was there.
M: Was it all HemisFair or just The Institute?
T: Just The Institute.
M: Just The Institute.
T: And it was held on the back patio and all around.It was beautiful.
~1: Everybody concerned with The Institute during HemisFair?
T: Oh. everybody was here. Everybody. And that's the night that
John and Nellie Connally were in the receiving line, naturally, and
Mrs. Shuffler was standing next to Nellie. And I had mentioned to
Mr. Shuffler and Mrs. Shuffler that John Connally was so handsome and
he was always so pleasant and always remembered my name. When he'd
come through the gallery, he'd always say. "Hello, Mrs. Thatcher, how
are you today?" And blah, blah, blah, see. And I would know when he
was coming because his aide would come about ten minutes before and I
would just look at the aide and I'd say, "Uh huh," nodding my head, and
he woul d say, "Uh hUh." And I knew he was comi ng. We 11, I thought
John Connally was the best-looking man I had ever seen in my life. And
he was just charming and so was she, just darling . And so , one time
talked to the aide about him personally. And the aide told me a few
stories--he said, "Well, he doe sn 't drink and he doesn't smoke, but he's
a hamburger freak ." He said, "We can 't pass a hamburger place without
stopping and gettin' John a hamburger."
M: Oh, my!
THATCHER 9.
T: So, that night before the party started, 1 mentioned to Mrs.
Shuffler--"You know, 1 don't think 1 can stand to touch him." And so
when 1 got in the receiving line, t1rs. Shuffler introduced me to Nellie,
you know, formal "How de do." And as 1 went by, Mrs. Shuffler said to
me, "You're going to get to touch him." And 1 said, "1 still don't
think 1 can stand it."
M: (Laughter)
T: So when he heard me--he overheard me--so when 1 got to him, he
hugged me.
M: Oh, isn't that beautiful .
T: It was wonderful. Wonderful. So then . ..
M: He really was the king pin in getting the whole HemisFair accom-plished.
T: Oh, yes. Very definitely.
So then, after we closed, ~Jhich was October the sixth, in '68.
And Mr. Shuffler asked to see me . 1 went to see him and he said,
"Where are you going to be?"
At that time they did not know what was going to happen to The
Institute. They had no idea about what they were going to do with it.
M: Oh .
T: Mayor Cockrell, Lila Cockrell, had made the suggestion it would
make a wonderful office building ~Jhich made Mr . Shuffler very angry.
M: Oh, really. 1 didn't know that.
T: And so when 1 talked to him, he said, "Now tell me where you're
going to be ."
And 1 sa id, "I don't know . I'm going to do a little traveling ,"
THATCHER 10 .
T: And he said, "Well, 1 want to be sure to know where you are--where
we can get in touch with you."
He didn't say what . Anything about it . 1 was in Chicago when 1
got the call. Mr. Baker called me.
M: He di d?
T: Uh huh. He called my daughter and my daughter told him where 1 was.
So he said, "When can you be here?" And 1 said, "Well, maybe day after
tomorrow." He said, "No. Can you be here tomorrow?"
M: My word!
T: So 1 got a plane out. Oh, it was 'round six o'clock in the evening.
M: Did you know why? Still didn't know what kind of job they had
planned for you? Good heavens, you've got a lot of faith.
T: So 1 got here and 1 didn't unpack my bags, even. Went to bed.
Got up and was here in the morning and had this interview with t~r. Baker.
And Mr. Baker was a little bit--he did tell me that there would be--
that we would have guides--not like during HemisFair . We would have
actual tours for school children. So 1--1 still didn't--it still didn't
sink in, you know. So finally, 1 reported for work the next day.
M: You were hired but you didn't know what--still didn't know what
for.
T: No, not exactly. So we had a former guide by the name of Esther
who was on the switchboard . And the switchboard was downstairs in the
reception hall. And she was doing switchboard . And so Mr. Baker told
me that one of my duties would be to learn all about the Texas History
of the floor and get ready to talk to the guides and train the guides
as to how to give a tour . Well, that was right up my alley.
THATCHER 11.
M: Sure. · Sure it was.
T: So in the meantime, Mr. Baker told me, he said, "Why don't you learn
the switchboard so that you can relieve the switchboard operator for
lunch or for a break. Which I did.
M: Oh .
T: Now, remember, this was in January.
M: '69.
T: '69 . There was no one here except a skeleton crew--staff. Upstairs
there were the offices and all were manned and everything, but on the
Exh ibit Floor, there was nobody .
M: Weren't the exhibits in place?
T: Oh, yes. The exhibits were in place.
M: But no people.
T: No. So Mr . Baker started hiring guides . And at that time our hours
were from ten to four weekdays. On Saturdays and Sundays, they were from
Twelve-thirty to six. The guides were all college students. And they
had time to go after work, or before work, to school.
M: Oh.
T: One interesting thing about that was, all the monies that were
collected in the fountain outside and collected from the fountain inside
in the Mexican Culture--that was given as scholarships to the guides.
M: Hum. Really. To the guides.
T: Uh huh . And they were all young peop le .
M: Ah, they were being paid.
T: Oh yes. So can remember going out into the Dome and sitting,
actually sitti ng on the fl oor and crying . "flow long can I do thi s?"
THATCHER 12.
M: Oh, really.
T: "How can I do this?" So after we got the crew of guides together
I started ...
M: About how many did you have?
T: I had twelve re~ulars, using six men-six women.
M: Oh?
T: Then I had two alternates.
M: Oh.
T: So Mr. Baker started hiring all these guides and then the researchers
would all come down and give us the lectures like they do now.
M: Oh.
T: And that's· the way we got started. O.K.
The one thing that was very important was, the guides and I had
to get out a letter to every principal and every superintendent in Texas
schools.
M: Texas! Oh!
T: So I worked on a composition of a letter and all I needed was
Mr. Shuffler's signature that it was all right--a go-ahead. And I can
remember one day, I waited and I waited, and I didn't hear anything.
At that time his secretary's name was P.J. So I was anxious to get going,
you know, because that was a big undertaking.
M: Mercy.
T: And, incidentally, all those letters were hand-addressed.
M: Oh. Oh .
T: Thousands . So I went up to the office and as I walked in the office,
THATCHER 13.
T: in P.J. 's office, Mr. Shuffler was coming out of his and there were
two men standing waiting for him. And he was just putting on his hat.
And I said, "Pardon me, Mr. Shuffler." I said, "All I need is an O.K.
on my little letter. Please, may I have it." And he reared up and he
sa i d, "Mrs. Thatcher, I will have you know that I am a very busy man."
And I said, "Well, I'm busy, too." And I turned around and I walked
out.
Well, by this time I was so disgusted, you know. Here we had all
this work to do and couldn'tget an "0 . K." quickly enough to do it . So
anyway, I want down and sat downstairs and I thought, "Well, you know,
I don't 1 i ke thi s." And I was jus t about ready to walk out.
M: Hmm .
T: I thought, you know, "If they're not going to pay any attention to
what I '01 trying to tell 'em .. . "
M: Sure.
T: In a few minutes P.J. came down and said, "Mrs. Thatcher, please
don't be upset," she said, "because he's one of the most wonderful
people to work for." She said, "I know sometimes he can be very curt,
but. .. ," she said, "he truly, truly is a very wonderful person." And
she said, "You'll learn his dispos ition ." That's the way she put it.
So she left and I'm still a little bit piqued about it . Finally
about half an hour later. he came down and apologized to me .
M: He did?
T: And he threw the letter across the desk and he said. "There's
your letter--now get going . " There was only one little mistake in it .
And I'm sure that that is all in his library . I'm sure all these
THATCHER
T: things that 1 'm telling you .. .
M: Yeah .
14.
T: So anyway, we struggled and we found lots of things that we tried
to do were wrong, but some of the nice things were these ...
The first time we had, let's see, I think there were about 200 came
from the School for the Blind in Austin. Now mind you, none of us had
ever given a tour to the blind. So the only thing I told the guides
was, I said, "Well, we're going to have to get our feet wet, and we are
going to have to learn to do this." And I said, "One thing we know-­that
the blind--if they can touch--they can see."
So that's when I did my little thing with the flag in the intro
area--the big Texas flag. If you turn your back to it, it has something
to do with your hair . And you rub your hand on the steel, and you get
a sensation--well, you can make it hum. So we would do that to the blind
and deaf.
M: Yeah.
T: And they loved it.
M: For goodness ... now the big ...
T: The big electric flag.
M: And you turn your back to it .
T: Uh huh. And you rub it like this up on the top or on the sides, and
it will--we call it--over the years--we've called it our play toy.
M: For goodness sake.
T: So then we taught all the guides how to give tours. Now in the
interim all of these guides--there were l ots of funny things that went
on--there were lots of romances- -
M: Oh, were there?
THATCHER
T: There were lots of weddings . . .
M: Really?
15.
T: Uh huh . And we had a very good time. And one little guide that
I had, Letitia was her name; Letitia came in and when I saw her-- she
was selected as running for the Queen of Fiesta.
M: Oh.
T: And she was so intrigued with the exhibit floor, she asked me, she
said, "How do you get a job working here?" And I said, "Ho, ho, ho,
that's easy, you know." Well, anyway, that's a long story, too.
In getting back to her, when she instituted her way of giving a
tou r- -she was bilingual--she would walk and she would hold her hand
face up, she'd say, "I'm speaking in English ." This way, palm down,
"I'm speaking in Spanish." to the children. It worked beautifully.
M: Ohl
T: And she's the one who started what we did with the fountain in the
Mexican Culture, "The Wishing Fountain." She would have the children
all turn their backs and pitch their penny over their right shoulder
into the fountain--and if you told your wish it didn't come true. And
then, as they pitched their pennies, she would say, "Arriba", which in
Spani sh means, "Up and Away We Go."
M: Oh, cute.
T: And that has been, over the years, we've been doing thi s and still
do it.
M: She was a natural, wa sn 't she?
T: Yes. So many of them were such wonderful young people. They were
lovely .
THATCHER
M: Were they all college students?
T: Uh huh. And one thing that I can remember that was funny, very
funny, was we had a guide, a young man, and even though he was young
he was balding on the top of his head . So one day he said to me,
16.
"Mrs. Thatcher, do you think I'd look good in a wig?" And I said,
"Well, Jay, I imagine . Why not? If you're self-conscious about that
little bald spot. Why not?" So he came in, and at that time you knnw,
all young men wore long hair.
~1: Yeah .
T: This wig was long and it was horrible .
~1: Oh, dear!
T: But anYViay, he got over in the tepee and he was tal ki ng to some
children and he played like he scalped himself .
M: (Laughter)
T: That wig came off and it was a roar!
M: Oh, how funny!
T: And then we had another little girl, Kathy, who was not quite five
feet tall . She was tiny-boned and a tiny young lady . And \~e had a
beautiful chest back in the Italian Culture and it was empty and she
would get in that and she'd raise the lid just enough and she'd say ,
"Help'.' in a soulful voice, "Help" when a tour would go by.
M: (Laughter)
T: And these were some of the things, you know, young people how they
i nnova te.
M: How wonder ful! But there must have been inspiration from you.
T: Our esprit~~~~!2~ was something else. I only fired three guides
THATCHER
T: in the whole time.
M: How long did this go on?
T: From '69 until the Maguires came in '76.
M: That's seven years. That long? With paid guides.
T: Uh huh.
17.
t1: I asked somebody about that the other day and whoever it was di dn' t
know when the volunteer deal started. Oh, did the Maguires not want that
kind of service? Is that why ... ?
T: The Maguires, when they came, they wanted more community involve­ment.
Which is very fine.
M: Uh huh.
T: So that was w~y they closed down the guide program and instituted
the volunteers.
M: While you still had these guides, these paid guides under your
wing, did you have to train them on historical facts?
T: I trained them this way. I finally figured out that this was the
best way to do it . I found it was the most successful .
We had lectures by the researchers as to facts dlHi figures . And
then I devised a way of dividing the Histowall into three sections and
I would tell the guides, "We are a people place. We are talking about
perso~alities in the nationalities."
M: Oh.
T: "Thi s constitutes a culture. A cult'Jre \0,'( figure is this way. If
it speaks its own language, it is cons idered a culture."
M: Oh?
1: For insta nce, we have the Wend i sh Culture. They come from Germany
THATCHER 18.
T: but they do nct speak German. They speak Wendi sh . So it is con­sidered
a culture.
M: Ah!
T: The Jew may come from anywhere in the world but because he speaks
two languages, it' s considered a culture.
I~: Hebrew and German or Hebrew and Russian or Hebrew and English, is
that what you mean?
T: Hebrew and Yiddish. Yiddish and Hebrew he speaks.
M: Oh .
T: This has always amazed the public. A lot of people when they come
in they don't know what we mean when you say a culture.
~1: No, I suppose not. I never heard it defined that way.
T: You have to explain it. Well, how do you explain to a child that
all these people .. . ?
For in stance, would say at every tour that came in, every school
tour that came in, they were seated and I gave them a little orienta­tion
for maybe ten minutes to let them know what they were going to see-­what
we were all about . To me that was very important .
M: Indeed .
T: Now in the beginning, another thing that was so interesting, we had
only been opened about a year fo r school tours. From allover the State
now--this is not just from San Antonio .
M: No. Uh huh .
T: And nobody would admit to being any part Indian, nobody ...
M: Umm.
T: ... grownups or children. And after we were opened about a year,
THATCHER 19.
T: this is one of the things that The Institute has done which I am
so very proud of; they know now, and they'll say, "My grandmother was
part Indi an." Or, "My grandfather was part Indi an."
M: Oh, really, they're proud of it now .
T: Oh yes, Now. Uh huh .
M: That's interesting, isn't it? Isn't that interesting . Well, now,
who's idea was it to reach out into the community with school children?
Was that your idea?
T: No. This was Mr. and Mrs . Maguire . Oh, you mean school children .
M: I mean the school children coming in. You wrote letters to all the
superintendents throughout Texas.
T: You're right. They didn't know that we were going to have a pro-gram.
You see, after the Fair closed, they didn ' t know what to do, I
guess the Legislature was the one who decided, or the Board of Regents.
M: Yes.
T: Then they decided to keep it going but we had to be an educational
facility. You see. So, therefore, we had to give educational tours .
M: I see. That's where you got your funding.
T: Right.
M: To keep you in business, I see . And during this seven years that
you had charge of the guides, did the attendance increase? Joe spoke of
the awful ending of the HemisFair from one day when it was full of happy
people and the next day, ab so lutely nothing .
T: Well, you see, there was a period from October the 6th until
January--March the 2nd that we were closed. We were closed down .
M: Oh .
THATCHER 20.
T: Had to be. Had to be. HemisFair closed on October the 6th and
then March the 2nd we opened. And before this--this is why I told you
about the letter writing--this was why it was so important to get it out
to the cornnun i ty .
M: Yes. Sure.
T: And it was amazing how they responded. It was amazing!
M: And from then on did you start bringing kids ... ?
T: It grew, it grew, it grew and grew.
M: Did you have a response . .. One of the questions that has come up was,
here's the little Institute of Texan Cultures and 'way off in the back
and all the HemisFair excitement was up in the front and some of the
people who were here then said, "Are we going to be lost?" "Are people
going to forget?"
T: We weren't.
M: But from the very begi nni ng you had people.
T: Uh huh.
~1: Has it always been free to get in?
T: Yes, mam. Yes, mam.
'·1: But the attendance never lagged once you opened again?
T: Oh, no.
M: It didn't?
T: No.
M: By the time you opened again in March, the construction must have
been finished by then? Was it?
T: Oh, yes, way before then.
M: And the planting in?
THATCHER 21.
T: Yeah. The Berm. Now, do you understand why it's a Berm?
M: No, I'd like to have you explain that to me. I've heard it . ..
T: All right. The Berm--it's an architectural term meaning wall of
earth .
M: Yeah, I know that.
T: The reason they designed it this way is so that you didn't get the
full impact as to how large the building was until you were right on it .
M: Oh!
T: It was a "shocki ng" thi ng .
M: Oh, really!
T: Now, the founta in, the way it's des i gned was for a purpose .
M: Oh?
T: Yeah . Each one of those sculptured stones in the fountain repre­sents
one of the cultures that we have on the exhibit floor .
M: Well, I never knew that.
T: The idea was that as the water flowed through the stones, that was
the confluence of the cultures.
~1: Confl uence of the cul tures ...
T: And when the water returned to the large basin--the fountain would
shoot seventy feet--that represented the future of Texas.
M: For heaven's sake!
T: Now that story I told in that art gallery so many times because
everyone would challenge me. I'd say, "It is the largest fountain in
the world." Now, this i s 196B.
The largest fountain in the world at that time was "The Jet" whi ch
was in Switzerl and. And it was ca 11 ed, "The Jet . "
THATCHER 22.
M: Oh, was it?
T: Now, I had people from Chicago that would say, "Oh, no. Our foun­tain
is larger than that."
M: Oh?
T: Everything that was built had a meaning--now the Hall of Mirrors
on the exhibit floor was the Exit .. .
M: Yeah.
T: That was designed so that people were only--they only entered
through the front doors .
M: Uh huh .
T: And when they left, they had to go out the back . And when they
walked through the Hall of Mirrors, the children could look at themselves
and say , "I'm the future of Te xas. I'm the future of Texa s ."
M: Oh, really. That was planned that way.
T: It was planned that way.
M: This is wonderful to have this information . These are a lot of
things that I didn't know and I'm sure a lot of other people .. . and in
the future won't know either.
Well, when you--when did you decide to start dressing up as \~omen
in Texas History?
T: After the Maguires came.
tl : After the Maguires came?
T: Yeah . After the Maguires came .
M: Wha t year was that?
T: Oh, by thi s time it is about '77.
M: '77, O.K. Right after Bi centennial.
THATCHER 23.
T: Right. Now, Mrs. Maguire came on the exhibit floor one day and
she said to me, "Pat, I'd like to have you out here on the floor. But
I don't want you stationed any particular place. I want you allover
the floor." She said, "I don't know what we can do."
And I said, "Well, give me a little time to think about it ." And
I certainly didn't want to be in any particular one place. So I went
home and so help me God, this is the truth. I sat down and I started
thinking and I thought, "Hum . How and what could I do? " And just like
a flash out of the blue, it came to me. "Why can't I dress as three
women all at one time? Texas women."
M: All at one time? How would you do that?
T: That's what they call my hysterical "strip tease" that I do .
M: Oh? Tell all about that, I don't know what that is. (Laughter)
T: I got a costumer through my daughter Joyce, who you know , is in the
theatre .
M: Uh huh.
T: And then I got a costumer and she came out to the apartment one
evening and she sat there and talked to me and she thought it was a
terrific idea. I told her, I said, "I want to play three different type
ladies in Texas History . want to be a Pioneer Woman . I want to be a
Southern Lady whom the man always, when he got affluent enough, he'd go
to the South, pick up his lady fair and marry her, bring her back to the
plantation for her to have his children and to teach them." And usually
it was the ladies of the South because they were well educated.
M: Yeah.
T: As Sam Houston went to thp South and picked up his last lady,
THATCHER
T: Margaret Lea.
M: Uh huh.
24.
T: O.K. And then I thought, there's got to be a place in this history
for the Dance Hall Girl. So that's when I became "Lulu Belle," the
Dance Hall Girl.
M: (Laughter)
T: So Margaret Lea Houston is the Southern Belle.
Lulu Belle is the Dance Hall Girl.
And the Pioneer Woman is Inez Rabb.
M: Where did you ... how did you ... where did you find those ladies?
T: Dug. Read. I have read so much that you wouldn't believe. I've
gotten so I don't like to read anything unless is's a--you know--written
about somebody: A biography.
M: Yeah, biographies.
T: So I said to this costumer, I told her what I wanted to do . told
her what kind of colors I wanted to use. And she said, "Well, I'll be
back and I'll draw you some sketches."
She came ba ck and we went over the sketches and I liked them very
much--what she had chosen--so she put them all together . She made them
herself . I paid for all these myself.
M: You did?
T: Yes.
M: Did you?
T: And so I di d my fi rs t "s tri p tease" on the exhi bit fl oar with every­body
upstairs and downstairs on my first go-around .
THATCHER 25.
M: No kidding. How did you layer it?
T: Well, you see Lulu Belle is fluffy; I mean, the skirt is black lace
and taffeta over it--very fancy. And I had the costumer fix the hook on
the back of the dress that I put the band that is sequined and then it
has the plumes, and that hooked on the back. So when I had this costume
on, I cannot--there is no way that I can sit down .
M: (Laughter)
T: O.K. Then the next one that I put on is the Southern Lady's. Now
that is heavy velvet. See, these have to be heavy. These last two, in
order to hold down all this skirt business . So that was very pretty.
Very elaborate. And then this whole deal. I wear a wig, you know, the
curls and the whole bit .
M: Oh!
T: And then the first one that they see me in is the Pioneer Woman.
Well, that costume is a heavy, heavy material. And it's brown and it has
the sunbonnet and it's lined with kind of an eggshell color and the wig
is sticking out . But I'm buttoned up to here and the back of that, you
have to have the tie around the middle to hold you down. You have to pull
it . I can't do it by myself. I just have to have somebody else help me
dress. And it ti es in the back.
M: Uh huh.
T: So when I start this "stripping" then I untie that and l et that--
take that one off and there I am--"The Southern Belle." The back of the
Southern Belle is Velcro ...
M: What's that? Oh, these things that ...
T: That stick--stickum stuff. And, see, I just rip that off, take
I
THATCHER 26.
T: that one off and there I am Lulu Belle. And then I just hold this
from the back, put it on my head, and that's it.
M: Isn't that marvellous.
T: Now, in the meantime while I'm doing this, I'm telling history. I
call it the "Hysterical History." You know, because it is hysterical.
But it's been fun. I've enjoyed every minute of it.
1·1: Are you still doing it? Do you still do that ... ?
T: I haven't done it in a long time.
M: You ought to do it as a farewell ... 1 think something ought to be
added right in here that you were in show business.
T: Yes.
M: So that this didn't---wasn't some new field of endeavor for you.
T: Right.
M: You fit right into the dramatizing and that sort of thing and it is
easy for you.
T: And I have a vivid memory.
M:
T:
M:
Do you?
A vivid memory and a vivid imagination.
They go together real good, don't they?
T: Yeah .
(Laughter)
(Laughter)
M: Over those seven years now, before we go into the volunteer pro­gram,
did you have any outstanding people come to visit that remain in
your mind that were a particular challenge or did you have people who
said, "All this Texas stuff is the bunk ... ?" What kind of response did
you get?
T: Well, there had been so very many, so many, many things that
THATCHER 27.
T: happened. We get very, very few--or we did and we sti ll do not
get many complaints.
11: You don't?
T: Many challenges, no. But once in a while, we 00 .
11: Are you ready for them?
T: Yeah. Uh huh. And when it gets too hard for me to handle on the
floor, I always call John Davis. And bless his heart, he always comes.
Now, you want to know a recent one?
~1: Uh huh.
T: O.K. There was a--this happened, well, I guess it was about five
weeks ago--there was a lady came in with a distinct German accent-­Grandmother
type--and she had two young men, say 23, 25 years old . And
the young men were from Germany. And she told me that they were her
grandsons . And I was talking to her awhile, and I asked her if she
would please sign the guestbook, which she did . So they went on the
tour. And they were out there about an hour and a half, and all of a
sudden, thi s one young man from Germany came up to me and he sa i d, "WHY?
Why would anyone have this expensive a violin in here?" He said, "MY
GOD, and no guard over it?" And I said, "Sir, do you mean you think we
have a Stradivarius?" He said, "No, no, no ." He said,"] think you have
an Italian Carolla." believe that was the name of it. I had never
heard of it before . He said, "He was from Italy and he's one of the
fine st. " He said, "That violin is ~lOrth two million dollars!"
11: 11y word!
T: So, my mind automatically flashed back to the Greek Husic Room,
thinking that that was what he was talking about . And he said, "No. "
THATCHER 28.
T: And I said, "Well, show me . Show me." So he took me over and in
the Ranger case, in the Anglo Culture, there is a violin. It's been
there since day one . And I--it's been there so long ago, you know, you
can forget.
M: Sure.
T: So I looked at it and I said, "You think this violin may be worth
two million dollars?" He said, "Look down."
You know on a violin the "5" for the sounding board ...
~1: Uh huh.
T: I looked down in there and he said, "1645." "~1ade by Corolla"--
whatever his name is--"in Ital y ."
r~: Wow.
T: And the young man said something to me, too. He said, "I am into
music very much in Gennany and I know my instruments." And he said, "If
you have something that valuable here, I really am surprised." So I
called John Davis. John never says, "What do you need?" or anything .
When say," I need you on the exhi bit fl oor," he comes. So he came down.
So I had no one with me at the desk at the time and I couldn't leave the
desk to listen to his--and they were over in the Anglo Culture--and I had
no one to leave at the desk.
M: Uh huh. Yeah .
T: So I had to wait until after it was allover and John explained it
to me. He said that when they started The Institute and they started
collecting artifacts that they found that a Texas Ranger did have a
Corolla violin--that they were priceless at that time . But Mr. Shuffler
didn't want it in here beca use of the insurance and because of the risk
- .i;
THATCHER 29.
T: that we would be tak i ng.
M: Oh.
T: A lot of peop le don't understand that we're highly ins ured with
everything that comes in and everything that goes out has to be in per ­fect
co ndition . And there are some t hi ngs that are more hi ghly insured
than others. So he told me; he sa iel Mr. Shuffler said to him, "O.K.,
we'll find a fake."
t1: Oh.
T: So, supposedly , that is a fake.
M: Isn't that i nterest ing .
T: Still don ' t know ,
1'1: You still don 't know. Oh, I 'm going down and look at it.
T: Oh, by al l mea ns . It's there in black and white.
M: In the Anglo-American. , .! 'l l be darned.
T: Now , anotller thing that harpened not long ago was NOI'man Fink, that
works in the store, ...
1·1: Yeah.
T: The little short gentleman, that ' s such a gentleman. And Norman
has some of the mos t in teresting guests visit him from allover the world.
M: Oh , does he?
T: And he usually ente r ta ins them and so forth and so on. So thi s one
day they go t here about nine o'c lock in the mo rning , j ust as we opened.
And he had this elegant lady wi th him. Oh, she was elegant. She was
whi tehaired and dressed beautiful ly and j us t as ! say , just an elegant
lady. And one th ing that I noticed about her from the beginn i ng ~Ias the
pearls she had around her neck , which hung down to her bellybutton and
THATCHER 30.
they were baroque pearls. And each one of them was the size of a robin's
egg.
M: Golly.
T: And then it had a beautiful diamond clasp here at the side. So
Norman introduced me to her and he said, "She's from South Africa." And
1 said, "Well, by all means, will you sign the Guest Book?" And she was
signing the Guest Book and she sa id to me, "1 wonder if 1 could leave my
purse here?" She said, "1 don't want to carry it around while Norman
shows me around." So 1 said, "Oh, I'll be happy to keep it for you,"
thinking nothing about it. So as I reached for it, she twisted toward
me and she said, "It has two million dollars in it . " And 1 said, "Under
those circumstances, no thank you . " And I was being facetious and she
didn't pay any attention to me--she still handed me the purse and I put
it with my purse and I guarded it with my 1 ife. I backed up to it and
sat on it .
M: Gracious heavens!
T: And I didn't say a word to anybody because I was afraid to.
thought, "Well, now if it is--how could she ha ve two million dollars in
that purse?"
M: Yes.
T: It wasn't a very large purse. Just an average size. Bea utiful,
i nci denta lly.
M: Oh. (Laughter) Oh, gosh!
T: So they were out there a good long time and so when they came ba ck
to the desk, I said, "Norman ." Of course I whispered to him, I said,
"Norman, would you tpll me how? Travpller's chpck s? How?" He said,
THATCHER 31.
T: "Well, Pat, don't you know that you can't take any money out of
South Africa now? They are not allowed to take any money out of South
Africa." And he said, "Doesn't every lady carry two million dollars when
she travels?"
~1: (Laughter)
T: Well, I was intrigued. So I called Frost Bank.
M: You did.
T: I called and I said, "What's the largest denomination of bills now?"
And the lady told me, she said, "A hundred dollar bill is the largest
denomination." I said, "You mean there's no more ten thousand dollar
bills?"
END OF TAPE I
Side 1 45 mi nutes
BEGINNING OF TAPE I
Side 1 20 minutes
M: (About 45 minutes a side.) All right. The highest! And you said,
"Don't you have ten thousand anymore . "
T: And they said, "No, the highest bill nO~1 is the hundred dollar bill."
Which I was really surprised ... Everybody is. When I ... because I certainly
didn't think that.
M: Well, I'm surprised. I thought there would be at least a thousand
or five hundred. No? How could you get two million . . . ?
T: So I couldn't wait until. .. Norman usually comes on Thursday. So the
following Thursday, the minute he hit the door, I had him, you know .
said, "Come on now, Norman." I said, "J know that she's a lady of means.
I could tell that." But I said, "What kind of business is she in?"
THATCHER 32.
T: And he said, "Diamonds." So I said, "Well, maybe she could have
had two million dollars worth of diamonds in her purse. Or, was she
kidding me?" I'll never know. It was all I could do to keep from open­ing
that purse to look into it, but I didn't.
~1: You never got the answer.
T: But that was the biggest temptation that I've had for a long time.
M: Two million dollars! Isn't that marvellous. Well now, you had this-­this
thing was going along beautifully--apparently you got it well-organi­zed;
you had good guides; you had wonderful response, interesting people-­then
the Maguires come along and they don't want this kind of service
anymore.
T: No. They, as I say, they wanted to reach out into the community,
which they can with Docents--volunteers.
M: So was it--who's idea was it? The docent program? Was it Jack
t1agui re' s?
T: I don't know.
t1: When did Selma come on, then?
T: Well, Selma's been with me all the time. As I told you, she worked
a different shift in the art gallery with me.
M: Yes, I know . But did she ... ?
T: When the Fair closed, after I was here, after Mr. Baker called me
here, and I was sitting on the switchboard one day relieving Esther and
Selma was doing some volunteer work up at KLRN, she came through to say,
"Hello ." And said, "Selma, tk. Baker said to me the other day, he
said, "You're going to need a secretary." And I said, "No, I don't
think I'll need a secretary. What I think 1'11 need is someone to help
THATCHER 33.
T: me--an ass is tant. And so I sa i d, "Go down to Mr. Baker ri ght now
and talk to him about it. Tell him that I sent you down there." And
he hired her right on the spot .
M: Was that when you still had paid ... guides?
T: Oh, yeah! This was from the beginning .
11: Oh, Selma was with you from the beginning?
T: From the beginning. That's how I met Selma, it was in the art gallery .
M: Ah! So you two worked together those seven years. Oh, you did!
T: Then Selma, when we went to the Docent Program or the Volunteer
Program, Selma was the first one to go out and recruit docents.
'·1: What do you mean, go out?
T: She went to meetings and .all gatherings of people.
M: Oh, did she?
T: Yes, she certainly did . Bless her heart . She started the Docent
Program.
11: knew she did . Well, then ... But the Docent Program does a lot more
things than work on the floor.
T: Oh. Yeah. Yeah.
M: But when was it? Was O.T. Baker still here deciding those things?
T: He was here after the Maguires came, he was here not quite a year .
And then he decided to retire.
M: Oh. But the Maguires were interested in the Docent Program.
T: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It was their idea, I'm sure.
M: Uh huh . Wel l, then--when you then--you had to certainly switch from
a well -e stablished professional, really, guide program to an amateur,
actually, volunteer program.
THATCHER
T: No, no. I've never been a volunteer.
M: I know you haven't--but managing them.
T: Oh, yeah.
34.
M: You had to manage professionally trained people and then all of a
sudden you had to--you came to ...
T: Well, I still helped the Docents.
M: Was that trouble? Was that any hard hurdle for you to make?
T: No. Not at all.
M: It was an easy transition?
T: I enjoyed the Docents very much. Made a lot of fri ends.
M: I'm sure you have. But are they as efficient and good as the other,
the ones you ... ?
T: Now, Esther, that's not a fair question.
~,: I shouldn't have asked that. O.K., I take it back. I won't. But
you do feel that the program as it is organized now is a good one, don't
you?
T: Oh, yes. Very definitely.
M: And you've loved every minute of it.
T: Every minute of it. Every minute.
M: You've made good friends.
T: I've 1 ea rned ...
M: You must be a storehouse of information--Texas History and ...
incidents.
T: This is why I'm gOing to try to write a book.
M: Are you?
THATCHER 35.
T: I'm going to try.
~1: Why not?
T: There's been so many things that 1 will recall and when 1 do, hope­fully,
1 can record them and then have someone help me write it--put it
in sequence, and you know.
M: That's a very good idea. You know why this series of interviews
began, did 1 tell you, is because General McGiffert wanted something
all in one place.
T: No.
M: As a newcomer, he was asked to do a speech.
T: Uh huh.
M: And he felt the need of having--sure, scattered allover this place
there are minutes of all the meetings~ there are records of expenditures,
all that stuff; there is a scrapbook somewhere--but it is not in one
place--and 1 think that's why he asked me to catch all of you people who
were here right at the beginning. So it's like putting the pieces toget­her
like a mosaic.
T: Exactly, exactly.
M: And when we get through, we'll have the peo ple's memories . ..
T: Right.
M: .. . of the oldest ... One of the things that 1 like about you is that
you--there are two thing s- -you're going to laugh about this-- but you
said one time--and 1 just love this--you said. "I set the tabl e every
night and 1 cook myself a decen t meal." Now th at's --you're my kind of
gi rl .
T: Well, tha t 's wh at I do . That's what 1 do .
THATCHER 36 .
M: And, another thing that I love about you is that when you leave the
end of this month, you don't want a lot of folderol.
T: No.
~1: I feel exactly the salre . ..
T: Emotionally and personally, my life for sixteen years had been in
this Institute. I was here from the beginning . I love it dearly . I
love it for what it has done.
r~: Uh huh .
T: If you only knew. If you could only be on that exhibit floor and
hear the accolades.
One lady this morning was from New York. And she said, "I've never
seen anything like this. It's positively marvellous."
M: Oh, really.
T: And she kept going on and on. And, of course, I love to hear those
things. But sometimes they are harder to answer than the criticisms,
you know.
M: Yeah.
T: You get your adrenalin going a little bit. Because we have had
people who challenge us on certain things .
M: Oh, I'm sure, there have always got to be people like that .
T: 1 can remember another i nstance. You want to hear this one?
M: Sure.
T: Now this was when we had the guide s . Now the guide's duty at about
3:30--we closed at 4:00 -- about 3:30 they would go out and they had to
take the flags down, both the boys and the girl s. And this particular
day, there was a lreeting downsta irs. Now I don't know what it was all
THATCHER 37.
T: about, I can't remember. But I do remember that Henry B. Gonzalez
was the speaker. So the guides were out taking down the flags and there
was a little Hexican man and his wife and they came from the meeting and
they crossed the bridge and they got out to the flagpoles and I could see
that there was some confusion out there. And all of a sudden, the man
turns around and he comes back in and he runs up to me and he said, "What
is the name of that young man that just stepped and wiped his feet on the
Mexican flag ?"
M: My word.
T: I said, "Sir, what do you mean he stepped on the flag and wiped his
feet?" And he said, "Well, he just did. And I have my wife to verify it."
M: Mercy.
T: And I said, "Well, sir, I just can't imagine that." And I pointed
to the one that he had pointed to and I said, "That young man is a Viet
Nam veteran . I'm sure he wouldn't do anything like that." And so I went
out and I talked to the guide and he told me. He said, "When the flag
was coming down," he said, "I knew it was going to get to the ground.
It was going to hit the ground." And he said, "I was trying to step out
of the way and I may have stepped on it, but I assure you that I did not
wi pe my feet and step on it purposely . "
M: Of course not.
T: By this time , Henry B. is coming across the bridge.
up to me and he said, "Pat," he said, "What's the matter?"
him.
I~: Is the Mexican man still there?
T: Oh, yeah, raising Cain.
And he walked
We 11, I to 1 d
THATCHER 38.
M: Hum!
T: Henry said to me, "Pat, go back in there and let me handle this ."
M: Oh, really?
T: So he talked to the man. And everything from inside, and I'm look­ing
out, seemed to be fine. They left and everything, you know. So the
next day, the man called me. And he said, "I want the name and address
of that young man . " I said, "Sir, I am not allowed to give you that . 1
thought that we had it all understood that it was strictly an accident ."
lie said, "Oh, no . " He said, "I'm getting a corrrnittee and we're going to
the Governor."
r~: Ny word.
T: And I said, "Well, sir, that's your privilege. "
So the minute I hung up, I went up to Mr. Shuffler and told him wh at
had happened. He said, "Why didn't you call me?" And I said, "Well, at
that particular time I was so upset and everything and Henry B., you
know, coming in and helping me , I thought everything was going to be fine. "
So he told me, he said, "Don't worry." He said, "We 'll take care of it ."
So he called the Governor's office and talked to the Governor. And they
never did go to him.
M: Isn't that funny how people get upset like that .
T: Oh, these things happen all the time.
M: You're deal ing with peopl e all the time .
T: Now another time, we had a group of high schoo l students from
Houston and they were all bla ck. And they came in with their radios
blast ing and when they di d t his, I always say to them, "You'll have to
leave your radio here at the desk with me, beca use we can ' t have that
THATCHER 39.
T: noise out on the floor." And so they went out on the--they left
their radios--they went out into the Dome and they sat around on the floor
and they were loud. Oh, they were loud. So I went out and I said, "Hey,
please, you'll have to quiet down or I'll have to ask you to leave . "
So I didn't say anything more; they quieted down. And so that was on
about a Friday . So Monday, I'm at home and the telephone rings and it's
Mr. Shuffler. "Well, you've made the papers!" And I said, "I've made
the papers? What are you talking about?" He said, "Well," he said,
"you're in Don Politico's column." I said, "What?" He said, "Let me
read it to you."
M: My word.
T: They called me a bigot . I had put the black students out.
N: My.
T: And all of the'se ugly things that they said.
M: Oh.
T: So I~r. Shuffler said, "Don't worry about it." And from then on he
always used to call me "bigot" when he'd come on the exhibit floor.
M: You got along well with him, didn't you?
T: Yes.
M: You had a great rapport with him.
T: So he sent the newspaper a letter and they printed a retraction.
N: They did?
T: Uh huh . And they have never said anything--they've never ... Ah.
N: Isn't that ridiculous?
T: Everybody knows that I'm the biggest champion for the ethnic groups.
Ny land, J have no feeling at all about any of them other than what
THATCHER 40 .
T: they've done and what they 've ...
M: Sure. After all, you were just treating them as you would treat
any group ...
T: Exactly . Exactly .
1'1: ... for doing the things they weren't supposed to do.
T: Exa ctly. If they don't. ..
So you see, those are some of the things that have happened over
the years which--I'm very grateful that I can hold my composure and
handle it.
1'1: Yes, I was going to say ... you're very calm ...
T: Because, this is very important on that exhibit floor.
~1: Yes , indeed. Now I've noticed, the few times I get down on that
floor, you always have somebody there with you now, don't you?
T: Well, I'm supposed to have a docent--morning and night, in the
afternoon. Yeah. Because, you see, if I have to leave the desk--you
can't leave that desk unmanned.
M: You can't?
T: No . No, you have to have someone there all the time.
11 : Why?
T: And the guards ... Well, one thing is there's a panic button there.
In case of an emergency, there's a pani c button that I have to hit . And
wh en I hit it, the guards , everybody comes to my res cue . You don't knol-l
what it's going to be.
M: Oh.
T: You know we 've had bOr.lb scares . You know we've had fi res .
I~: Yea h.
THATCHER
T: And you cannot, especially when you have a floor full of school
children, you can't panic them. You have to have control or it's--­think
of the things that could happen.
41.
t~: Pandemonium. Yeah. Well, if you press it ... Have you ever had to
press it?
T: Uh huh.
M: Have you? Does that ring downstairs? In Security?
T: Down at Security, it lights up.
H: We have a wonderful bunch of Security people. Aren't they nice?
T: Oh, they .. . I ~Iant to tell you they have he 1 ped me over the yea rs.
You just wouldn't believe how they've helped me. They're ~lOnderful ...
to help me.
t~: Yes, they really are. There's always somebody down there by you,
isn't there?
T: Uh huh. Should be.
r~: To protect the exhibit or you, or both.
T: Well, like I say, in case of an emergency.
M: They're there. There are so many details. Somebody coming into
The Institute ...
T: Uh huh. They have no idea.
H: They have no idea.
T: No one has any idea unti 1 they s it there and work that desk.
M: Yeah .
T: Or they work the exhibit floor.
11: Yeah. I can believe it. Do you feel--one of the things I have
wond ered about the exhibit floor--do you feel tha t they keep it alive,
THATCHER 42.
M: that they keep changing it often enough, so that it doesn't ever
get stale?
T: Right. Uh huh.
r~: Do you think they do it fast enough?
T: They're trying very hard.
r~: Are they--to keep it--to keep it "today" as an exhi bi t. .. ?
T: Well, you see automatically it's going to change because we own
nothing.
M: I know.
T: Everything's on loan. And when something has to go back to its
owner, it's automatically--you have to have something to replace it. So,
therefore, it keeps it alive.
r~: Does it?
T: Uh huh. That's wh¥ we're so different as a museum. We're entire­ly
di fferent.
r~: Yeah, because you're not static down there at all.
T: Exactly .
M: It's a wonderful thing. Pat, do you think of anything else that you
want on this tape as your last words.
T: Only one thing. The Institute saved my life after I lost my hus­band.
And I had to go to work .
M: Uh huh.
T: He was eight months at Methodist Hospital, so you can imagine my
bi 11 s .
~1: Oh, mercy.
THATCHER 43.
T: So I had to go to work and I think it was God's will that sent me
here be ca use it saved my life. It pitched me into doing things that I
never thought I was capable of doing. And as I've said before, I love
The Institute. I always will love it.
fl : Is it going to be hard for you to leave?
T: Very hard. Very hard .
M: Is it? Because one day I asked you and you said, "Well." And we
used a cliche that we both use: "One doo r closes, another one opens . "
T: Right.
M: And I really believe that.
T: Well, I'm hoping. don't know exactly vlhat I'm goi ng to do other
than I'm going to try to write . I'm going to try to remember all the
things that have happened over the years and try to put it in sequence.
There 's been some funny--tragic--lots of tragi c things, too .
M: Have there?
T: Uh huh.
t1: Well, you know, if you start thinking about it and putting notes
down, or talking into a recorder, your mind will start flowing, throwing
those things up, probably from the sub consc ious--they ' ll probably start
comi ng out.
T: I hope. hope.
M: Pat, thank you very much.
T: You're so very, very welcome . It' s been nice to knovi you, Es ther.
t1 : Thank you.
END OF TAPE I
Si de 2 45 minutes