THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
FOLKLIFE FESTIVAL
INTERVIEW WITH: Rajee Thyagarajan, India-Asia Ass'n
DATE: August 5, 1989
PLACE:
INTERVIEWER:
18th Annual Texas Folklife Festival
James Patrick McGuire
MCG: Today, Rajee, I'd like to ask you to tell us something
about the India-Asia Association.
T: I'm very happy to be here, Pat. Thanks for calling
me.
India-Asia Association was formed as an informal group
in 1978, by a group of Indians; Indian families who lived in
San Antonio. They found they had a need to get together to
sing our own songs, or have some movies from India, or talk
our language together. It's just a cultural deprivation
they were feeling, wanting to be together and wanting to do
these things that are very special to them.
So they just gathered as a group and then thought it
would be nice to formalize it so that it can be an
Association and we can do more things and show our culture
to the rest of the people in San Antonio.
So they formed the Association as a non-profit
organization in '79 and then we got it approved as a tax
exempt organization in 1982 - '83 and so we are now a
full-fledged tax exempt educational and cultural non-profit
organization.
THYAGARAJAN 2
MCG: Thank you. Approximately how many people from India
and surrounding countries belong to the India-Asian
Association and where in Texas do you find people from South
Asia living today?
T: That's a broad question. Let me try to address it.
Right now we have a membership of about 180. This is
paid membership. But we have about 250 families living in
San Antonio area. This is only from the Indian subcontinent
- from India. There are a lot of people from pakistan, from
Ceylon, from Afghanistan. I wouldn't know the numbers.
Some of those countries have formal organizations. Some of
them don't. This is the reason we wanted to have our
organization as India-Asia. We like to include them until
they, themselves, want to have their own because they are
smaller in number. And most of our cultures are very much -
have very much in common. And we do have a lot of people
taking part with us from some of these other countries. And
we welcome them and this is a good opportunity for them to
be with people with similar cultures and that's the reason
we do want to retain India-Asia Association. And we hope
other - some of these other nations, countries, will join us
more.
As for who - how many are living in Texas, I would say
that Houston has a very big population. I have a feeling it
runs into - I don't know if it's close to a million, but
it's a big number. I don't know the real number, okay?
But Dallas also has. Dallas and vicinity - around
THYAGARAJAN 3
T: Dallas , a lot of Indians. And major cities in this
country have their own associations l ike us. Some of them
have many in the same city, depending on what part of India
they came from.
MeG: Is that right? Tell us more about that.
T: Yes. It's something we are fighting very hard, not to
happen in San Antonio.
Our community is small enough that we are trying not to
break it into smaller groups, like peopl e talking different
ethnic languages.
In India we have - we can call it an enrichment as well
as a disadvantage in the sense we have 14 different major
languages. And this plus several d i alects. So these people
who come from the different states talk entirely different
languages . Their script writing is different, everything is
differ ent . So when there are large numbers of these people
in the city , they tend to congregate together and try to
form their own little associations, like Malayali
Association, those people who talk Malayali.
MeG: Now , you' l l have to spell that.
T: Okay. M-a-l- a-y-a-l-i, Malayali , okay? They're from
Kerala. Now-
MeG: Spell that.
T: K-e-r-a-l-a, a State of India. Now I'm just saying
that as an example. They are not the only people who do
that and for very good reasons because the population gets
too big. Everybody cannot congregate together in one place .
THYAGARAJAN
T: This is a progression that's going to happen in any
city when the population gets to be very big.
4
So what they do, because of commuting problems and
things, people in the same area who speak the same language
tend to congregate together and form their own association
so they can bring artists from India who perform in their
language, or have plays in their language, or want to teach
their children their script and reading, and writing in
their language, so ..
MCG: Religion.
T: religion. Religion is a unifying factor many times
in India because even though we all speak all these
languages that's one remarkable thing about India. Eighty
percent of the people are Hindus. And they're starting from
Karshnea in the north, near the Himalayas to way down Cape
Comeran, which is very close to Ceylon, we are of different
languages - come from different parts of the country. We
have different languages that we speak, but we are all
Hindus, the 80%.
So people from Karshnea will come all the way down to
Cape Comeran in a pilgrimage tour and people from the south
go all the way down to Himlayas to do the same pilgrimage
tour. And so, because of this commmon belief and common
cultural trends, many of our songs, scriptures and the holy
language, if you want to call it holy language, is Sanskrit
- it's just the mother language from which all the other
languages were dialect. Since we have that as our
THYAGARAJAN 5
T: scriptural language, many people have the unifying
factor there. So in spite of all the diversities in
language and regional customs, it is also a common thread
that runs through the fabric, you see. So, many of us who
live in different parts of India still have a lot of things
in common. We enjoy the same kinds of classical music, food
- spicy food is eaten everywhere in India except the degree
of spiciness varies, you know.
So in bigge r cities what has happened is Gujarats, who
come from Gujarat, which is a ...
MeG: Spell it, please.
T: G-u-j-a-r-a-t, Gujarat, okay. That's the State Mahatma
Ghandi came from, near Bombay, okay. So people from there
speak Gujarati and there is a big population of Gujarats in
major cities, so they have their own Gujarat Association.
So many, many people form associations like this. San
Antonio has been unique. We have all been working together
and enjoying each other's little differences in the region.
I enjoy the north Indian music and north Indian dancing
and food. And they enjoy the special things that I make
from the south. I come from south India, Madras, okay,
Madras. You are all familiar with that name with the
madras, you call it madras from the shirts - shirts that you
all like to wear, cotton.
So I make special foods that other people from the
north enjoy. So there's a lot in interrelated activities
we do together, by exchanging these things. And we've
THYAGARAJAN 6
T: stayed together very well, in San Antonio, as one
association. It is the India-Asia Association, we have
people from allover India and we have some Pakistanians and
we hope that more and more of people from Ceylon and other
countries will join us to •..
MCG: Thank you. Rajee, would you tell us about the food
that's served at the India-Asia Association booth at the
Folklife Festival - why your association wanted to be a part
of the Folklife Festival and describe some of the dances
that are done at the Festival.
T: I'm very glad you asked me why we are taking part in
this Festival. This has been our, I think it's the 9th year
that we are participating. It is a lot of work for 4 days
and money-wise I don't think we make a whole lot of money,
so it is really not for money we do this. But we have a
very good reason, which is cultural and educational. We are
an organization which promotes education of other - of
people in San Antonio with regard to our culture or music,
our art and traditions from India. So we take this as a
very good opportunity to talk to people at large. people
stop at our booth while they are eating our food, they ask
about the spices, they ask about the way it is prepared.
They ask about what it is called, sometimes they ask us the
meaning of the words and they ask us to write it. We do all
kinds of things with people. The interaction that goes on
in the booth with the people who come to eat food and those
of us who serve there is tremendous. It's just not like in
THYAGARAJAN 7
T: the shop. You go and hand the money and take the
food.
Many people stop by and talk to us. And it's
wonderful. We love to do it and we talk to our members.
We, you know, prepare for that and they are vry happy to do
that. So this is primarily an educational and cultural
event for us.
In the cultural area, we also have dances. We have
some very good dancers from various parts of India who do
both classical dances which takes an enormous amount of
training, like your ballet from a very young age and there
are some professionals who are coming all the way from
Houston to participate in this every year. And she dances
very well. One is Rathna Kumar. She's a very wonderful
lady of great professional ... R-a-t-h-n-a, Rathna, Kumar -
K-u-m-a-r. She's a professional and she has a school in
Houston and she comes down every year to perform here one
evening.
And we also have our local group which consists of many
of our members and their children and these members and
their children have started a classical Indian dance school
in town now. It's called Artie's School of Indian Dances.
It is very good, and in fact, we encourage American children
to come and - I mean by American doesn't mean we are not
Americans. It's very hard for us to distinguish. What I
mean is white Americans or Mexican-Americans, or Black
Americans. We want other ethnic group children to come and
THYAGARAJAN 8
T: learn our dancing if they want to. We encourage that
very much.
And just like our children go and learn gymnastics and
ballet and football, and you know, my children learn band -
different instruments in school and they perform very well.
Just like that, we would like the other children to come and
learn that. And we would encourage them to do that. So our
members and children who learn in the school are going to be
performing in Texas Folklife Festival.
MCG: That's wonderful. Let's go back for a moment and talk
about Indian immigration to Texas. Why and when did this
occur? And what types of jobs or occupations are followed
by the Indian-American population in Texas today?
T: The first question you asked me - when did it first
happen, I cannot answer. In fact, we are seriously thinking
about looking into the history or pattern of this and we may
come to you for help for that. We want to find out our
so-called roots in Texas - to find out when the first family
came here and under what circumstances with what profession
in mind. It would be nice to find out.
But, in recent years, by recent I mean about 25 years -
within 25 years, we have had several people here - I came
here in 1974, okay? And some of my friends who came here
before that, came in early '70s or early or mid-60s.
MCG: Was that for University, or ••• ?
T: Exactly. Exactly, very professional reasons. In fact,
the one family who have been here for a long time is Dr. and
THYAGARAJAN 9
T: Mrs. Rao - R-a-o, and they're quite well known in this
town. They do a lot of stuff and he is head of the
Biochemistry Division in southwest Foundation for Education
Research. He's a wonderful person and they have been here
for a long time and their children were raised here. And
then some of us came early seventies. We came for
professional reasons. UTSA was an attracting point. Many
of us came for that. And then Southwest Reserach and there
are many, many doctors in San Antonio.
MeG: What about college students coming for university
education?
T: They do come, yes. But we don't have as many as they
have in Houston or Dallas and other places. Many of our
students who come, come beyond the undergraduate level so
they come for postgaduate work, or further training.
So those, they have to wait to see which university
will be able to afford them some assistance, financial
assistance, so they apply from India, wait for many, many
years patiently until they can get in some place.
And with money tight - money being tight, not many of
them are able to come with that kind of assistance, so it's
kind of spread out allover the country. But many of our
people come for professional reasons. We do have some
businessmen. People who came here as dependents with those
professionals and then got some training here and then
opened their own businesses. We have a lot of people who
have motels, there are some people who have their own
THYAGARAJAN 10
T: convenience store now, and some who have their, you
know, laundromats and things like that which is second step
to the original - original people who came with the
intention of higher education in America, learning more
about what they are doing in their own signs, or you know,
physicians who came for the training.
But I tell you, Texas is an attraction for Indians
because of the weather. (laughter) It's warm and India is
a warm country, so I guess that makes people migrate here.
Many of my friends have lived in Michigan and Cleveland and
other places and they finally migrated down here and now
they say this is our home. We are not leaving.
MCG: That's wonderful. Weather has attracted people from
India to the Sunbelt, as it were.
In San Antonio perhaps not as much, but in Houston and
in other Texas metropolitan areas, do Indian or immigrants
tend to live in the same neighborhoods? You've told us
about the clubs, how do Indian people get work in Texas?
T: Thank you. I was just listening to the radio this
morning which talked about hyper-segregation among Blacks in
major cities which is becoming a big problem for our
country.
Now, again this is bound to happen if people feel
insecure about mingling with the rest of the population.
They don't have the same amount of education. They cannot
hold the same type of jobs with other people and they become
cloistered in little groups in cities and they tend to stay
THYAGARAJAN 11
T: together in the same areas. This has not happened with
the Indians in Texas, so as far as I know because many of
our people come as professionals and so they are already
integrated into the professional network with the medical
schools and being professors in universities and so
economically they are well integrated.
So they are probably found in all neighborhoods. But
in major cities like New York, there is an area in Queens
which is doing just what you described. People tend to
congregate when there's a whole area which is populated by
only Indians, like highrise apartments which are occupied
only by Indians. And I don't know, they probably feel very
much at home coming from a very different culture, coming
here being in that neighborhood. I'm not very much in favor
of it. I feel that the people should mingle and get to know
the other people and be free and comfortable and explain to
them our culture if they don't understand and then learn
from them, but I think it's many times it's because of their
educational handicap or economics situation that is
happening, just like they described about the Blacks, you
know. It's unfortunate but I hope it doesn't happen.
MeG: Let's talk about the immigrant generation which you are
a member of and your children who were born in America and,
or the first American born generation. How are they
retaining their ancestral heritage from India and how are
they adapting in the Texas environment, and coincidentally,
how do you, coming from Madras feel about your children
THYAGARAJAN 12
MCG: marrying someone from another area of India?
T: Well, that's a favorite subject that you just ask me,
the last question. My second daughter has married a white
American, if you want to call him that (laughter) and a
wonderful person. And the second generation, as you asked
me, how well they integrate and how well they feel
comfortable with the white population, or Mexican- American ,
or other ethnic groups.
It depends entirely on how well the parents felt about
it. It ' s definitely, you know, a learned attribute, or
attitude. So our children never felt uncomfortable because
I never, and we encourage them to go and have a good time
and, you know, enjoy school and do things that we never put
a limitation on them. But I can see why some of the other
parents might feel apprehensive because we tend to be a
little bit more traditional in the way we let our children
do certain things at certain ages. Okay. And the little
permissiveness that we see in this society, or any western
society for that matter, frightens us. Okay?
MCG: Does the immigrant generation have the fear that if
their children marry into another ethnic group, like the
Anglo American or others, they will lose their ancestral
religion?
T: This is something that's very hard to predict, whether
they will lose or they will bring the other person into
their fold , or will they retain their own identity, which is
best, I think.
THYAGARAJAN 13
T: We tend to teach our religious practice, or whatever we
believe in, to our children. Not so much that we want them
to be so rigid as to force it on anybody else. We don't
believe in that. In fact, Hindu religion dos not promote
proselytization. It is against the Hindu religion to do
that. Religion is something that a person has to develop as
an individual relationship with God. That is the - as you
grow up and whatever we knew we teach the children. In
fact, I tell my - I used to tell my children when they were
very, very young they used to - when they're very young they
don't understand what we are doing. They just enjoy the
process and in Hindu religion makes it very enjoyable for
children. With a lot of sensitive things going, you know,
beautiful music and flowers and colorful decorations and
incense and so many things. In fact, it's one of the best
ways, I think, children can be captivated. They knew the
education part of it very well. So, they learned it just
like an experience and then later on they asked questions
because they should, you know, as they grow older like
P i ~ ~ ?~
Piashea explained how our reasoning power increases as they
ask questions and then we need to ask them - to answer them,
or tell them that this is what I know, but I want you to go
find more. And if you find something more that is
satisfying to you, go ahead and embrace it. That's what I
told my children because I can only teach you what I believe
in and what I learned.
MeG: Rajee, how do you and other parents react to the
THYAGARAJAN 14
MCG: prejudices you find coming from the American
population? For example, there are Protestant sects who
will preach against your re ligion because it is foreign to
them. How do you deal with this?
T: We are very old hands in dealing with this. Let me
tell you what happened. In India, missionaries came as
early as several centuries ago from Belgium and Dutch people
and allover the western world have come to our country.
They've taken advantage of the poor conditions of the people
and actually made their economic situation better. In
return , they wanted them to be Christians. Can you blieve
anybody wanting to - turn somebody into a Christian
overnight just because they are - make their life a little
more comfortable? People did that because they thought
proselytization is the way. They were asked to do - to
teach their religion. They just could, you know. I'm not
against it at all. Each religion has to do what they
believe in. Okay. If you take the real aspect of every
major religion in this world, all of them teach only the
basic good things to people. Okay. Essence of it is all
the same. The way they pracice it is going to be different
because we are all from various parts of the world. It's
not ever going to be the same. What we believed in was if
they want to do what they want to do, that's fine, we will
do what we want to do but we shall respect each other, which
is very important.
MCG: That's important and so when you find that there are
THYAGARAJAN 15
MCG: people who actively oppose or critize then you as a
parent have to be able to explain to your child how to deal
with it.
T: What we try to do is explain our religion the way we
can and then we tell them that you should not expect other
people to understand it unless they have learned the
religion as you have learned it.
people don't know much about our religion. Just like
you don't know much about their religion, so we don't
educate them to criticize other people's religion either.
That's important. When you tell that to their children, you
know, until you know more about what they are doing, you
have no right to criticize what they are doing. The same
way goes both ways, okay. So we tell them, "Tell them what
we do, explain what we teach you, and then if they have more
questions, ask them to come talk to us." This communication
is very important, Patrick.
MCG: And it seems to me that your children will be better
adjusted because they have approached this from a very
intelligent point of view whereas other people unthinkingly
can be critical.
I'd like to move on to our last question today. Your
beautiful Indian dress called the sari. It's delightful to
see that our immigrants are retaining their native beautiful
dresses.
Are their children and grandchildren going to do this?
T: This is a concern for all of us. I do want my children
THYAGARAJAN 16
T: to wear ethnic clothes. My daughter has many of these
saris and she wears them sometimes when she goes in the
evening someplace, you know, having a good time going to
eat, or going to a function. But they don't feel totally
comfortable wearing it all the time, which I don't either
now because I must admit I wear western professional clothes
when I go to teach. I'm a teacher and I find that working
in the lab as I do - I'm teaching science - it's very
cumbersome. It's not suited for that type of activity so we
have all grown to understand that we should be able to be
flexible to adjust to our situation, but still be proud of
what we can and do with our ethnic clothes so I wear it
whenever I can so I can feel like my ownself.
MCG: And the last question. Is it cooler to wear a sari to
the Folklife Festival?
T: It's cooler, depending on what type of sari you wear -
the material. If it is a nice cool cotton like the one I'm
wearing, it is very cool. In fact, it is designed to be
cool, it's not the tight fitting garment . It's loosely
wrapped around you so there is a lot of air circulation.
And nothing is oppressing you or pressing you down so it's
very cool. In fact, it's meant to be cool. But you have to
choose the right material, like cotton to be able to be
cool.
But I tell you with the amount of activity we have
there, it's sometimes a little cumbersome.
MCG: Rajee, we've had a wonderful talk today and I want to
THYAGARAJAN 17
MCG: thank you for corning in for the interview. We could
obviously explore many, many other topics because you're
very , very knowledgeable and express yourself so
beautifully. We hope that we will meet you again and that
we at the Institute can pursue, with you, an exploration of
the roots of the Indian community from South Asia in Texas.
Thank you very much.
T: Thank you, Pat, I really appreciate your calling us and
your offer to help us would be greatly appreciated and we
will all cooperate any way we can and we hope to continue to
have this relationship with the Institute of Texan Cultures
every year during Folklife Festival.
END OF TAPE I, SIDE 1, ABOUT 25 MINUTES.