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THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
Oral History Office
INTERVIEW WITH: Bonnie Truax
DATE: 16 June 1993
PLACE: The Institute of Texan Cultures, Oral
History Office
INTERVIEWERS: Esther MacMillan
M: This is an interview with Bonnie Truax. The date is
June ... what? .. l6th. The place, the Oral History Office,
and I am Esther MacMillan. What we are talking about today
with Bonnie is the emphasis on education, which has become
so important in the Institute of Texan Cultures. And I want
her to start at the very beginning when, I understand, she
was a volunteer, and how it grew and how she became so
highly respected in her field. O.K., Bonnie.
T: Well, I am an educator - have always been an educator -
and when I moved to San Antonio, I did not go back to
teaching. I thought I was through with that for the rest of
my life. In fact, 1 thought I was not going back to work.
But I got very bored, and one day when I was looking at the
Northside Recorder, there was an article about the Institute
of Texan Cultures and the need for volunteers. I had never
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T: been ... really considered myself a history buff, but it
was in education, and they said they needed people like me.
So I came down, and went through the training program. And
about the second day I realized ... or maybe it was a little
farther into the program ... I realized that this was a 'died
and gone to heaven place' to teach. And I've been saying
that for all these years. It hasn't changed; it's gotten
better. The reason is that this institution, The Institute
of Texan Cultures, gives people an opportunity to be
involved in the learning process with history. The problem
that most people - children, adults - have with history is
that it is not connected to us. We had a hard time with it.
We can't remember i t . And so, what's important about here
is that the questioning that goes on on the Exhibit Floor -
instead of lecturing - the asking of questions and the
ability to handle objects connects the learner with what's
being taught. And I realized what a strong teaching tool
that was.
M: That' s a good point; I don't know that anybody's ever
made it.
T: I just have had a wonderful time with that. Everything
that I have done at the Institute has been based on that -
on that philosophy, on that concept - and that concept was
here when I came. I believe it ... that Marion Martinello and
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Joe Cook are instrumental in a lot of that.
M: Who are they?
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T: They're from UTSA, and they have been part of the
training that ' s done for the docents, from the beginning.
So, they might be somebody you might want t o interview also.
M: Uh huh.
T: But I was so thril led with the training, and I loved
doing the tours. I was giving tours two days a week when I
first started out. And then 1 .. . 1 can ' t remember the man's
name, but he was in charge of the artifact room at that
time , and it was down in the basement . . . and he needed some
help. So, I said, "Fine,", and I came in and I soon
discovered when 1. . . when he said "help", he did not mean
from 10:00 until 2:00. He wanted me there at 8:00, and
wanted me to stay until 5:00.
M: Oh, gee.
T: So, I worked with him . . . let's see, his first name was
Sam ... one day a week I'd come in there and what he had were
cards , and on them were objects that the Institute owned .
Now, the Institute doesn ' t own many objects, but there were
objects that were owned. And the problem was that there was
no way of knowing where they were in this welter of stuff
down there. So, I would go around with my little pen and a
flashlight because there weren't good lights down there,
and ...
M: Oh, gee.
T: . .. and try to find these things. It was a wonderful
job, because I learned so much about artifacts. I learned
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T: so much about the Institute. And my favorite card I
have to tell you about, when I carne to it, said, "Three
boards, old." (Laughter) So, I was running around,
looking. There was one section in the back where we had a
lot of the material that now is on the German wall. At that
time it was just like a narrow little corridor; there were
no lights in it at all. And in order to work in there, I
had to take my flashlight along, and then I'd stand there
and try to find a place to put on the object - to put this
number where it wouldn't be visible. I learned a lot and I
had a great time . While I was doing that, I met the News
and Information people on the exhibit floor somewhere one
day, and they said, "Bonnie," ... I had helped them at the
Folklife Festival while I was, the first year I was a
volunteer ... and they said, "Are you angry with us? You
haven't been helping us." So, I said, "No. I'm not. And
what would you like me to do?" And they said, "Well, we
need to re-do the 'Visit to the Institute' film strip."
And, as so many times at the Institute, I thought to myself,
"I didn't know I could do that". But I said, "Sure", and I
went in and I talked to them, and I started working on that.
And I learned, once again, so much about the Institute. And
now I was working with staff upstairs, with research staff
and with people that I didn't know well, got to know people
well. All this within the first year that I was
volunteering.
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M: In other words, you were going to school.
T: I was. I was learning something as I did. Another
thi ng that I always say, "Every day I learned something at
the Institute. Every day." There wasn't a day that went by
that I didn't learn something. So, finally, my husband said
to me, you know .. . he had asked me to keep track of the days
I went down to the Institute, something to do with income
tax ... and I had been keeping track of it on our calendar.
And, finally, one day he said, "You know, Bonnie, you've
been down to the Institute every day for a month." And I
had realized that; I was just having a wonderful time. So,
he said, you know, "Have you thought about applying for a
job? " And I thought, well, I really hadn't. And so ... but I
have been thinking, ever since training, that Patrick and
the Institute were - Patrick McGuire was the head of
Education - missing the boat by not taking that traveling
trunk that Mary Ellen Macia was taking to nursing homes ...
M: Who was it ... Mary Ellen?
T: Mrs. Macia, and her first name, now, is not corning to
me.
M: M-A-C-I-A?
T: Yes.
M: O.K.
T: At t hat time, she had a huge, heavy trunk, and she was
taking it to nursing homes. The minute I saw it, I thought,
"Oh, they need to do that to schools. We need to take those
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T: kits to schools."
M: Yes.
T: SO, I had been in, bugging Patrick and saying, "We need
to start a Tex-kit, or a program to the schools, and he
would nod and say, "Yes." And so, after Earl [Mr. Truax]
talked to me, I talked to Patrick, and I said, "You really
need, you know ... if you could find a place for me on the
staff, I would be ... I would love to start a Tex-kit program
for you . " And I went through a few other things that I
thought, you know, that I could be helpful wi th. And then I
told him that I'd been down there every day for a month, you
know. (Laughter) And he was understanding. And I think
maybe now is a good time to mention that I had gotten to
know Pat McGuire.
M: Oh.
T: And Pat was ... and I were on the same wave-length. She
understood how .. .
M: Really?
T: ... how I felt about the artifacts and the questioning
way that was being used to teach on the Exhibit Floor.
M: Jack McGuire, her husband, was the Director of the
Institute.
T : Yes. This is ... this is ... Jack McGuire was the
Director, and Pat McGuire had so many titles along the way.
I don't really know what her title was at this time. But I
think that she was also instrumental in talking to Patrick,
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T: and Patrick probably talked to her. And I've never
really found this out for sure, but I think this is true,
that ... So he . .. he came to me then; I met with him; I
actually remember even where it was - on the bench in front
of the restrooms downstairs . We sat down there and he said,
"Bonnie, I think I have a job for you for September." This
was a year and a half after I'd started as a volunteer.
M: Oh, dear.
T: He said ... Oh, I hadn't talked to him until, you know,
at least a year before I even considered thinking about
going back to work, because, as I said, I really wasn't
going to go back to work. And he said , "I think I have a
job for you. I need a half-time Indian at the tepee on the
exhibit floor."
M: (Laughter) Isn't that funny?
T: Esther, I was so surp ... I thought, oh, this was not
what I had in mind. Of course, I had been doing tours and I
had been going . .. doing ... I had done these things. And
they ... So to Patrick this sounded, you know, good, and I
said, "Oh , I don't know, Patrick, whether I want to do it."
Well, he said, "You know, oftentimes, if I get people on
staff, things open up and then I can move them around and
have them become, you know, more what I want." Well, I
thought about it and I ... and I said ... I told him I' d think
about it . And finally I said, "O.K." Now 1... You know, I
did not want to do that because in the first place it was
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T: when Rocky was leaving, and I ... you remember Rocky, who
was at the tepee; everybody loved Rocky. All the years I
worked here , people asked me where Rocky was. And Rocky was
leaving, and I would ... whoever took that tepee was going to
be replacing Rocky. I mean I can't imagine anything more
difficult than that . At any rate, I did tell Patrick,
"O.K." And then ... oh, about a week before September I,
which is when this, of course, was taking place ... he called
me and he said, "I'm restructuring the whole department, and
you won't need to ... " I had told him I wasn't real excited
about this idea. He told me, "I'll have you in the front
office." So, I carne to work, then, on September 1, and ...
M: Nineteen what?
T: Let's see. I've written these down. That was
1978 ... 1979.
M: '79. O.K.
T: This was in September of '79; yes. So, I carne to work
and in that office that now houses the Director of
Educational Programs and her secretary or her administrative
assistant, were housed Patrick, the Director of the
department, plus five other people.
M: What?
T: I mean it was wall-to-wall desks and telephones
and ... it was mad-house in there, just a mad-house . One of
the things that they wanted me to do was to bring the
booking of the tours down to the department, because it was
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T : so hard; they were being booked at the desk upstairs -
telephones ringing, children coming in and visitors. It was
just not a very professional way to do it. So that was the
first thing I did, was bring those down and book those
tours, then I started the Tex-kit program - mainly on my
own. Nobody was as excited about it as I was. I,
basically, was the one that wanted to do ...
M: You started that? That's such a wonderful program.
T: Yeah. I ... I ... because there was no money, and there
never has been, really, any money for the things we've done.
M: That's the story of our lives. (Laughter)
T: I just found artifacts wherever I could. Of course,
you know, an advantage of having worked in the artifacts
rooms and seeing all those artifacts - I knew what was back
there.
M: Sure.
T: I knew what we owned and wasn't being used. Since so
many of the things were things from the artifact room,
things that I could find out in stores, and then in
catalogues. And I started getting a ... finding ways and
places to buy these artifacts. And I got the kits together,
and I took them out myself at first.
a pioneer kit.
M: You did?
I took it out - it was
T: Took it out myself for quite a while. Then ...
M: Did you make the arrangements with the schools, too?
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T: Yes. Yes.
10
In fact, I would - when I got to know some
of the teachers - I would say, you know, "would you be
interested in this - it's a pilot program and we'd like to
try it out." One of the first people who worked with me was
Emily Wofford. And we stored our stuff down in Rocky's old
storeroom, which was very tiny and had all kinds of little
cubi ... it had no place to really store anything. It was just
a place, and it smelled awful! (Laughter)
M: Oh, really? I wonder what it was?
T: He must have had something in the refrigerators; I
don't know, but it smelled just awful. Anyway, you held
your nose, you went in, you tried to find yourself - because
other people were using that thing, too - it was a hoot! It
really was; it was a miracle that the thing ever came across
- came over. We had no script; we did this from our ... our
training on the exhibit floor and what we had learned. And
we'd go out and present the artifacts - and everybody did it
different - and it was so much fun. It was so much fun!
M: Now you say, everybody ... by this time had you other
people ...
T: A few. There were a few other people. Along the way,
now, they've come and they've gone and I ... Esther, I
don't remember, really, who was in that first part.
M: But they were volunteers?
T: They were all volunteers. All volunteers. Yes.
M: Good.
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T: So that was ... I was doing that with my left hand; I was
booking all the tours, and .. . and then Patrick called me in
and said, "You know, we have these traveling trunk ... trunks
that we want to get going." Of course, everybody gets the
two mixed up - the Tex kits and the traveling trunks. The
trunks - traveling trunks - we rent, and so they, basically,
are a product that we try to make a little money on. So,
those are rented out by the month; they go out from
the ... used to go out from the Development Department; I
don't know if they still do. And they're made and stored
down in Production. So, they had a script that Rosemary
Davis had written on Indians Who Lived in Houses. And
Patrick handed these pieces of paper, and he said, "I want
you to do this traveling trunk." Why, I didn't even ... I
don't know whether we even called it that at that time.
1 ... 1 didn't ... no one - none of us knew anything about this.
So, I started, oh, writing to museums and writing ... I
haven't ... just flailing around. I called the Smithsonian
that has a wonderful resource department and told them what
I was trying to do. They gave me a few leads. And it was
really ... it was really wonderful! It was constantly ... I
don't, didn't know that I could do this. I'm a teacher; I'm
a librarian. I didn't know that I could do these programs.
It was wonderful to have . .. be given the opportunity to grow,
t he opportunity to put into, into products my philosophy,
which I had learned here at the T: Institute.
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M: Great. Now, right here, let me interrupt just a
minute. What's the difference between a Tex kit and a
traveling trunk?
T: All right. The Tex kits are ... are boxes that the
docents - volunteers or staff - take out to a school,
present, and bring back. O.K.? They go out and they come
back; they go out and they come back. The traveling ... And
they . . . they ... you don't leave the teacher a script or any of
the artifacts, or anything like that.
M: All right. What's in the box?
T: The ... the ... In the box are the same kinds of things
that you have in the traveling trunks. They are the same
kind of product . ..
M: Oh, they are?
T : They're just handled differently.
M: I see.
T: Because ... like with the traveling trunks, because you
have no person there, you have a script. You have a
teacher's guide - a very comprehensive teacher's guide . . .
M: Oh, oh, I see.
T : . .. which shows you how to use the kit - how best or
how ... helps the teacher; I shouldn't say 'shows how'. But
helps the teacher with ideas on how to use the kit. But
it's all based on the idea of handling the artifacts. And
it ... we now have three - traveling trunks - the one on, the
first one, Texas Indians Who Lived in Houses; the
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T: second one, Cowboys and Cattle Drives; and the third
one was ... 1S Spanish Boy in Early Texas.
M: Spanish what?
T: Spanish Boy in Early Texas . That's ... that's one that
probably needs to be redone. That one was . . .
M: Annette is handling that now.
T: Oh, is that... Who is this?
M: Annette.
T: Oh, really? Oh.
M: She doesn't have the ambassadors anymore.
T: Oh, I see.
M: Sort of, you know, one of those things that happens.
13
T: Yeah, yeah. Everybody gets so confused about the
difference between the traveling trunks and the Tex kits -
staff, here, the business office, everyone. It's so
difficult to separate the two. But the Tex kits go out,
basically, with someone to do the presenting. The traveling
trunks go out on their own, and they also are rented - you
pay a monthly fee, plus the money to get them out to the
schools. So, that was a program, too, that I did all three
of those trunks.
M: I didn't realize that you began those programs . My
word!
T: Well, I don't think most people know how many things
come out of Ed Programs department all the time. You know,
T: it's a .. . a very ... it's a very creative department; it's
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T: a very ... it's ... The wonderful thing, and I know I
keep digressing, but that's part of my personality.
M: That's all right.
T: You'll have to put up with that.
M: Sure.
T: It's ... it's a place - the exhibit floor and the whole
Institute - is a place where a person with any ideas or any
creativity just goes bananas, because you can't possibly
carry out all the wonderful things you can see. As many
years as I was here, I never completed my projects, never.
There were always projects in my mind that I thought, "Oh,
wouldn't that be wonderful to do!" You know.
M: Uh huh.
T: There're just so many ways that this place can be an
educational service to ... to the State of Texas, to anyone
who comes in. It's jus t a wonderful thing.
Now, I know you want me to get to this educational
thing.
M: I'm in no hurry.
T: (Laughter) O.K.
M: We've got lots of time.
T: Well, I was ... I was going along, doing these projects
that I wanted to do and that Patrick wanted me to do, and so
forth. And, along the way, I instituted a program of tours
for preschoolers which I've discovered, through talking to
T: some preschool people in schools, that the Institute
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T: was absolutely the most wonderful place in the world
for preschoolers to corne.
M: Oh?
T : We teach the way they teach preschool. And I worked
with a professor from Trinity on that first preschool
program. It was ... it was wonderful; I enjoyed every minute
of, of these things.
M: Did it keep their attention?
T: Yes. Oh, yes.
M: I had them one day in the library ... one little kid went
sound as leep.
T: Well, they will do ... they will do things. One of the
things I learned was that they are listening to you, even
though they may not look like it. They, you know, they can
be doing somersaults, but if you ask them a question, they
can answer it.
M: Uh huh. Yeah.
T: So , it's .. . we had a wonderful time with that program,
and it was controversial, in that some of the people didn't
t hink that we should let those little, little people ln on
the exhibit floor. But we are an educational institution ...
M: Sure.
T: And I think they benefit so much. And, of course, we
must remember that as an institution like ours, we depend on
our people who corne in the door. If people stop corning in
T: the door, we will then cease to exist.
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M: Uh huh.
T: And these are little kids who are, who if we are
helpful to them when they are little, will become Institute
people and will want to come back, and will want to come
back as adults. And maybe, even as rich adults, give us
some money. Who knows? (Laughter)
M: Hopefully, hopefully.
T: So. As I say, I was going along, working on all these
different projects, and eventually Patrick was elevated to
Program Management, and I became Director of the department.
And that was in ...
M: Director of what department?
T: Of Educational Programs.
M: Education ... But not till then did you have that
title?
T: Well, it was 1981. It was not too long after I had ...
Or, no, it was 19 ...
M: You started in '79 ...
T: '79. Yes. And was about 1981; it was a couple of
year s, but that doesn't seem long to me.
M: Uh huh.
T: And then, of course, I ... I had even more autonomy, and
more of ... Although Patrick, really, was very supportive of
the things that I did. We ... you know, I never had any
problem with him.
M: Did you have any help at this moment ... any ... ?
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T: Well, we had very little. At the time that I became
Director of Educational Programs, we hired Sandra
Merrifield. At that time, she was the person who booked
t o urs; that's when I stopped booking tours.
M: Oh.
17
T: And she took over the Tex kit program. And then I had
all the rest of the responsibility. The ... the wonderful
thing about booking those tours ... What people don't
realize is the way that you say . . . you know, that I did a lot
of things. The reason that I was able to, was that I
started at the very ground level. I booked the tours; as a
result, I talked to teachers every day, all day.
M: Oh, did you?
T: And I discovered what they wanted. And helped them
discover what they wanted, because I was a teacher. And I
was able, then, to learn even more how we could be of
assistance to the schools. One of the things that bothered
me so much was that we were not using the Back 40. I could
see that was the situation ...
M: Oh, it wasn't being used then?
T: Wonderful ... No. And I would talk, be talking, to a
teacher, and I would say, "Would you be interested in the
Back 40?" "What's that?" And I would tell her. Well, if I
d i d that, then I had to plan the program. I had to do it,
and I had to get the volunteers and get them out there, or
T: do it myself. So, you know, I couldn't do it all the
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T: time, but, eventually, after I became head of the
department, eventually, I was able to hire a person - Janet
- for three hours, exactly. She used to drive up to the
Back 40 at 9:00 o'clock, get out of her car, and docents
would be out there, and she did that program for a number of
years. And then when we hired Mary [Burchell], I was able
to get more time for her and, gradually, more time for her,
until finally, she is working even summers now. And the
program has grown; the program out there has grown
gradually. But it has been very difficult because of lack
of ...
M: What is it?
T: Well, lack of money, for staffing. And ...
M: How did this fit in with Folklife Festival?
T: We have never had any problem. Evertime that we do
anything out on the Back 40, we check with Joanne.
M: Uh huh.
T: Because we know that we can't be in her way. We
started doing summer on the Back 40 when I got a grant for
it. And I talked to Joanne [Andera] immediately; we picked
the dates that would be best for her. And I talked to Jerry
Kusenberger, and we worked around ... he worked around us; we
worked around him. If they were working down by the fort
building, we worked up by the schoolhouse ... that kind of
thing.
M: I see.
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T: But I've seen the Back 40 grow, and have struggled and
really worked hard ... I really wanted that log cabin out
there. I was so thrilled that's finally there.
M: It's nice; yes.
T: Because that's part of the experience that's so hard to
teach. What we were trying to do out on the Back 40, which
was help children see how people lived back in other times.
M: Uh huh.
T: It's hard to do that without a house, you know. We
didn't have a house.
M: Absolutely.
T: So that was, that was good.
M: That's a beauty, though.
T: Yeah. And of course, the Back 40 is tied in with the
exhibit floor program, and that's always been the heart of
what the Institute does. When education reform came in,
suddenly I could see that it was ... might be very difficult
for schools to have money to go on tours and to get away
from school to go on tours, because the law was, only five
days of leave like that. So ... and I knew that was going to
be used for athletics; it's pretty obvious. So, that's when
I began working very closely with the schools, on programs
that go out to them. I would ... I spent I don't know how
many hours going to schools, talking to teachers, telling
them about our programs. We did a correlation guide of the
T: Institute of Texan Cultures exhibit floor and other
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T: programs to the new ... well, they're called the
essential elements that must be taught in schools in Texas.
M: Oh?
T: And then I started working more closely with T.E.A.,
Texas Education Association. And serving on some of their
boards and some of their committees and presenting there ...
to make us, as you pointed out as we started, to make ... we
must be an educational institution, if we want to, one, to
get funded by the Legislature, in my opinion, get funded by
the .. .
M: ... exist .. .
T: Because they have closed so many museums, or withdrawn
their money.
M: I know, uh huh.
T: And we must correlate with the schools as they are
being required to do more and more and more. If we're not
helping them; if we're not part of their basic process,
they're not going to come. They are not going to come;
that's all there is to it. And so, I began, then, to ... I
attended many meetings during this ... when education reform
was coming in, when Ross Perot was over here, and different
times ... tried to become more integral to the basic education
that's going on in Texas.
M: on basic, isn't it?
T: Yeah. And, just ... if you don't ... At museum
T: conferences I was asked to speak because so many museum
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T: people were dragging their feet about this. And it was
so, just seemed to me, so painfully clear that if you do not
make yourself part of the process, you're going to be
outside of it. And they are not going to come to your
institution.
M: A very good point, ma'am.
T: You know, they're just not going to come. So, we
worked very hard. I trained the docents in the essential
elements. Oh, I'll never forget that. And ...
M: ....... everything else you were doing.
T: ... and got them atuned to what we were ... But it fit
right in; it fit right in with what we were doing. All they
had to do was see that, really ... see that. And teachers
needed to see that. So, the things that we did were,
basically, basic to education, instead of peripheral. It ...
it used to be that schools could go out and around - and
private schools still can - but any public education now,
they are more and more proscribed about what they can do,
where they can go ...
M: Oh?
T: ... how much time they spend away from their desk. It's
called 'on task', how are the kids ...
M: It's called what?
T: 'On task'. Are they 'on task'?
M: On task. Oh dear.
T: And if you are ... if your program is one that does not
TRUAX 22
T: contribute to what they are learning in school, they
are not 'on task' when they're here.
M: ~.
T: So, what my paperwork - constant paperwork ...
M: I see. I see.
T: ... constant paperwork that they could show to the
principal was showing that we were teaching them what they
were l earning in the c lassroom . That this was not
'enrichment' .
M: I was just going to say ... what about, about the extra
frosting on the cake.
T: That's very hard to justify in the public schools
today. It's very hard, Esther. They just . .. the new ... the
education reform .. .
M: That's too bad .
T: .. . and now, even more so, I think ... I'm not as
engrossed as I was. I've dropped out of all that on
purpose. T.E.A. called me not too long ago and asked me to
serve on a committee, and I told them I wasn't interested.
M: Oh , did you really?
T: But as we get more to the place where we are asking
teachers, asking kids to pass tests to show that they have
learned the material, we will have less and less time fo r
enrichment, because the kids wil l have to be, be drilled,
you know. They'll have to be drilled .
M: Oh, dear.
TRUAX 23
T: And you're dealing with children that are different
now, too. They don't have the same mental attitude that
kids used to have. You don't have the support from home.
Many times.
M: That's what's wrong right now.
T: You don't have the support from home. So the problem
is ... that's probably not germane to what we're talking
about, but I loved being able to ... Because I found this
place ... I loved helping teachers see that this was a
wonderful place. That this was a place where kids could be
turned on to history. You probably have heard the story
about the little boy up on the exhibit floor who, at the
Indian interpretive area, was raising his hand and asking
questions and all these things, and the teachers were,
obviously, so ... their eyes were just wide and they were just
- mouths hanging open. So afterward - I don't remember who
the interpreter was - asked the teacher, you know, your
reaction. And she said that child has never spoken in
school.
M: Really?
T: This turned him on.
M: Turned him on.
T: It turned him on. He saw the connection, you see.
It's just so thrilling to have those things ... I've had
them happen in a classroom when I was doing a Tex kit - when
T: you can see the teacher look and see that a kid whom
TRUAX 24
T: she's got isolated over in the corner who, obviously,
is a terrible kid - pardon the expression - will just
blossom, and ask the best questions, and ... and be, you know,
part of the process.
M: So, there's just not just only one way to do it.
T: Yes. So ...
M: Just a minute. I've got to turn the tape.
END OF TAPE I, Side 1, 45 Minutes
TAPE I, Side 2
M: Here we go. Side 2.
T: O.K. Let me take a look at my notes. I was afraid I
would forget to tell you about some of these things if I
didn't write them down.
M: I'm glad you did. John did that, too, when I
interviewed him.
T: I have a tendency to get on my ... I have soapboxes ... I
get on those; I've already been on a couple of them. And I
also love to tell stories, so I tend to digress. I'd like
to talk a little bit more about the exhibit floor, because
it was such an integral ... although I got ... my job got me
farther and farther from the exhibit floor, still it was the
basis of everything we did.
M: Oh, it was; that's interesting.
T: Yeah, it is. It is the basis of everything.
M: Do you know what they're doing on that next ... on the
M: Tejano exhibit? My word, I don't know how many ... it's
TRUAX 25
M: just going on forever. The interns this summer are
both assigned to jobs of that, which ...
T: Well, the problem on the exhibit floor is a problem
that all educators and museum people have. And Phyllis and
I - Phyllis McKenzie and I - have worked well together,
because Phyllis is at heart an educator.
M: Uh huh.
T: And she understands that you cannot put research up on
the wall. You can't do that.
M: No.
T: You have to engross ... you have to get your people to be
involved in learning about it. It has to be something they
want to know. If you use too many words ... there are many
research studies that show how few minutes people will spend
reading a wall. So I am concerned about what's going on,
because Phyllis had, I thought, done a lot of good work on
it. But ... That reminds me, do you remember when we did
the Afro-American area? It took, I think, five years.
M: Well, I don't know how long this has been, but I said
one day, "How corne it's taking so long?" And she said ...
T: Yeah. It's a very expensive. Very expensive project.
M: Well, the Indian was so darned successful.
T: Yes.
M: And I think everything was so well done.
T: Yes. The Indian is very well done. I liked it a lot,
T: and if you think about it, it's based on three
TRUAX 26
T: interpretive areas, which, you see - the hands on, the
asking of questions. It's based on people. If you have
people there, or objects there, you will have ... There
aren't as many words ... There are always words for the
people who want to read them, who want to get into that .. .
M: Uh huh.
T: The Indian is very well done. It's a very good
combination of hands-on and question and answer kinds of
things ...
M: Well, pictorially, too, it's good.
T: You know, another thing that I feel strongly about on
the exhibit floor is ... and this is one of the things I want
to talk about . .. some of the exciting things that have
happened for me on the exhibit floor - one of them being
when Patrick came back to research and began to work -
towards the end of the time that he worked here - began to
work on the exhibit floor again. He would come to me and
say, "Well, what can I do for you, Bonnie? What can I do
for Ed Programs?" And, of course, Patrick had lived it so,
it made it very nice. One of the things that he and I did
was t he Lebanese t runk.
M: Oh?
T: We got a grant from the Lebanese ... oh, I'm not going to
be able to remember the name of their association ... but, at
any rate, they gave us the money to get together a
peddler's ... Lebanese peddler's trunk.
TRUAX 27
M: Oh, yeah. Aren't they a wonderful ...
T: It's just ... that turned out to be so good, because that
area was so dead. When you asked the docents, "Where do you
take people?" They never took them in there. There wasn't
anything to it. It was just dead. Now, it's got the trunk;
there's stuff you can touch. And what made me think of it,
particularly, is I have visited a lot of museums, of course,
and I do it as an educator, and I do it as a museum person.
And I have found that the strongest way to get to people, to
connect with them, to make them want to read something, lS
to do quotations, because they know they're real. They know
they were done by the person who we're talking about ...
M: Well, that's an interesting thought ...
T: And you know, the whole Lebanese wall there has
quotations. And I believe that Phyllis is using a lot of
quotations in ...
M: Is she?
T: Yeah, I think so. It's a ... it's a powerful, powerful
way. There's a museum under the arch in Kansas City ... is it
Kansas City that has the arch? ..
M: St. Louis.
T: St. Louis. St. Louis. There's a museum ... you see, up
on top I didn't even go t o, but the one under the arch is a
history museum. Everything written in there - in the museum
part - is a quotation.
M: They're quick and to the point. Is that ...
TRUAX 28
T: Oh! And you get it! You get ... you want to read it,
and it's connected to the artifact that's standing there, or
whatever ...
M: Huh.
T: Oh, Esther, it's just the best little museum. Around
the back, it's the Lewis and Clark expedition, and there
they have quotes from the book. But this ... in the museum,
itself, it was so powerful to me, so powerful; I just loved
it. So 1 ... 1 really loved doing that Lebanese trunk. And
Sue McDonald did the research - some of it had been done,
she picked up on it, and she went out and got the
things ... she worked with the production department and we
got the whole thing going. We trained docents, and so
forth. But it was such a ... that's the kind of thing that's
so much fun to pull off at the Institute. To do something
like that that jazzes up the exhibit floor. Patrick had
worked up a wonderful German area that would be an
interpretive area where we would have volunteers there, like
in the tepee, at the tepee, and at spinning and weaving. I
hope that goes forward, because that would make that back
area much more exciting. So, anyway, those were things
that ... that was still on the burner; we had that ... the ideas
were there but we hadn't finished that up.
you about the puppet theater ...
M: Oh, yes.
I want to tell
T: ... and this, of course, involves Pat McGuire again -
TRUAX 29
T: Jack McGuire's wife. Pat was ... was Patrick's boss, you
know, for many years, and she had, probably was very
instrumental in the kind of interpretation that's done on
the exhibit fl oor . This is something that I have not been
able to track down.
M: Oh?
T : But I think she might have been. You know, the
educational programs department had only been going a little
over a year, or two years, when I became a volunteer. It
t ook me a long time to find that out. So, I don't really
know how things went.
M: It wasn't an ... it wasn't an organized department when
you came on ...
T: Yes. Yes, Patrick was the Director of Educational
Programs.
M: Oh, he was running it.
T; Yes. Uh huh. And I tried to remember on the way down
here, how come I was in Pat McGuire's office, but it ... I
believe it was her birthday, and maybe I just stopped by to
say "Happy Birthday". At any rate, we started talking about
the puppet theater. She loved that puppet theater, and it
was languishing. I was trying very hard, but it was back in
the corner , behind the Afro area ; it was dark back there.
M: Oh.
T: We had to ... there was no security; we had to put all
T: the puppets into the, into an old footlocker and lock
TRUAX
T: them up. It was really a step-child operation.
M: Yeah.
T: And she and I would talk about it, and 1 ... 1 couldn't
get docents to be ... I couldn't blame them, but I
30
couldn't ... I was having a h ard time getting them to do it .
Pat Garland had been doing scripts and she was helping me a
lot - she's a volunteer. All of a sudden, all I remember is
that Pat and I were walking down this hall - her office was,
oh, that was when her office was where Bob Brodeur's
secretary's office is ... We were walking down the hall and
she had a balloon, or more than one, on a string, and you
know, and we were on our way to Phil Hewitt's office,
downstairs - he was head of the exhibit floor artifacts or,
you know, that . . . Well, Phil didn't want to see us, of
course, because what we wanted was a puppet theater. And
Phil didn't .. . he just didn't want to hear this . So, it was
a funny, funny ...
M: I wonder why he didn't want a ...
T: Well, he didn't want us to take up the room. Esther,
many times researchers cannot see where these things .. .
M:
T: They think the words on the wall are what are needed.
I'm sorry, but they really do. And so, you . . . you have these
problems. There's a lways been this problem between Ed
Programs and Research, because of this . Ed Programs are
T: educators; researchers want to put the words on
TRUAX 31
T: the . .. they want to research it and regurgitate it all
on the walls, and I mean ... You know what I mean. They
want everything up there .. .
M: Sure.
T: And I know that doesn't work. And so ... we were always
having these ... So, we got started and, oh gosh, Dave
Garrison was given the project, and I have figured this out
- before I went up there , that ... or before I talked to her -
that we could put it where it is now, in the hall of
mirrors. Well, this is sac ... this is something you don't do
- you do not put anything in the hall of mirrors, so we had
a terrible time. But once I got Pat on my side, it went
fine. And Dave Garrison did a marvelous job with that, just
a wonderful job.
M: Did he make the puppets?
T: No, he did the puppet theater; he designed the puppet
theater. And I told him what we needed - we needed back­stage
room, we needed lights, we needed ... And he took all
my ideas and made them wonderful. I just can't tell you how
thrilled we were with that. In the meantime, Pat was
getting very sick.
M: Oh.
T: And by the time... Of course, you understand, that
years go by before this happens.
M: Uh huh.
T: When we finally opened that puppet theater, Pat was
TRUAX 32
T: very ill . . .
M: Oh.
T: But she came down in her wheelchair and - I have a tape
of that somewhere here at the Institute ...
M: Oh, you do?
T: ... of the ... I asked UTSA to come down and tape it,
because she was so thrilled that it finally happened. But
that puppet theater - what many people don't realize - is
that puppet theater follows this philosophy just like
everything else ...
M: Oh?
T: You ask the kids questions; it's interactive. I don't
know if you've ever sat through one of those puppet shows ...
M: Sure, I have; I've loved it.
T: You ask the kids questions; they answer them. This
way, they get involved in the learning process. This way,
they get involved.
M: They don't just merely sit and and absorb.
T: That's right. They don't sit there and listen, or kick
each other, or whatever.
M: Yeah.
T: It ... it all follows out. Everything on the exhibit
floor that I worked with, carries out this same philosophy
of interaction, of being involved in this process.
M: ~.
T: And it works with adults, too. It works with adults.
TRUAX 33
T: I remember one time we were practicing, ,and two young
men came and stood in the back. And I always had a little
sign I put out that said we were practicing. But they came
and stood in the back. And when we were doing the grandma
puppet show and when the little grandma says, waved and
said ... well, waved or something like that ... they looked at
each other and they looked at me, and they were so
embarrassed. (Laughter)
M: I can just imagine.
T: You just get into it. I also remember when Folklife
Festival ... when we were doing one of the puppet shows that
... well, you sing. I think it was "Texas Our Texas". And
the puppet tells them to stand up and sing. And I just had
this moment of panic, because here they were, you know, all
these people, and we must have been doing it outside,
because they were in chairs. We must have been doing
it . . . there must have been 50 people. I thought, "Oh,
puppet is going to tell these people to stand up ... ".
stood up. There were no children; it was all adults.
stood up, dutifully ...
M: No kidding!
this
They
They
T: ... and stumbled through "Texas Our Texas". It was so
much fun.
M: (Laughter)
T: That's the power . That's the power that you see of
this learning, teaching style. It just is so much fun to
TRUAX 34
T: see this happen. I just loved it .
M: Now, is the ... I haven't been down there. I don't get
around very much because I'm still walking with a cane. But
is the puppet show still going down there? Is it a daily ...
T: As far as I know, it's going down there; yes. It's
always been a problem, getting ... The docents, you know,
like to be outside where they're visible. There are a few
very steady people who come and do the puppet shows, and the
teachers love them. The teachers ... They're wonderful for
those pre-school kids. Most of them teach very well. We
have one on cattle brands that absolutely is top-notch
education.
M: Really?
T: By the time you're through, you know about cattle
brands.
M: I'll be darned.
T: It's just wonderful. I just think it's great. I can't
tell you how, how wonderful it is to know that ... that people
can learn these things while sitting on the floor in that
little puppet theater. It's great. (Laughter)
Another one of the things that I really was thrilled
with on the exhibit floor was getting that hide tepee. I
had wanted ...
M: Oh .. .
T: ... to replace that .. . The first tepee, you know, was
T: not authentic. I t was hard hide. And that was good
TRUAX 35
T: for the kids, because they couldn't destruct it, but
everybody I knew who knew anything would say, "Bonnie, that
tepee is a disaster, you know; it's not authentic." And I
had a professor down from UT Austin, whose name is not ... he
wrote the book on Texas Indians ... Newcombe. He came down.
And there was some question about some of the artifacts we
were using in the . .. on the exhibit floor and in the Tex kit
program. So, I called him and asked him if he would come
down, take a look and tell me, so I could get rid of
anything that was not authentic. And, also, could he speak
to my docents? He did, and the first thing he said was,
"The tepee's gotta go." And 1 ... 1 had told him on the phone
that I knew that, but he ... he said, "The tepee's gotta go."
There were a couple of other things that I had to just
quietly, just get rid of. All the Tex kit stuff was O.K. I
was pleased with that .
He spoke to my docents, and this is really off the
record, but I loved it, because he ... he said, "You have been
trained in Texas Indians, so I don't need to ... to teach you
about Texas Indians," and he said, "Besides, if I do, you
won't read my book." So, he said, "Read the book. Listen
to the people here at the Institute who know about Indians."
But what he talked about with them was not to portray the
Indian as the fierce Redskin, you know, and he pointed out
that these people were living here when people came and took
T: their land, which they felt belonged to everyone, or
TRUAX 36
T: belonged to God. And so, he said, you have to
understand what we have is a clash of culture. What are
they going to do? It's a very primitive community. They
have to kill to get their food. So, naturally, they try to
defend their culture. They try to do ... " And I thought it
was the most wonderful speech, because so many of us had
been brought up on the old Indians, and cowboys and Indians,
and the marauding Indian, and all that. So, it was a
wonderful lesson for us to have, so that we could be careful
what we said on the exhibit floor. I was very pleased with
him. But, at any rate, then we went to the canvas tepees
and they were authentic, but at a later time-frame. And, in
the meantime, in my artifacts search, I'd found this man up
in South Dakota who was raising buffalo and tanning - brain
tanning - their hides, the old-fashioned way.
M: Oh.
T: And found out he did tepees for $12,000, $14,000. I
finally got that money, Esther; I finally got it!
M: Oh, did you.
T: I was so thrilled when I finally got that. And he made
the tepee. It took him, oh, six months, nine months,
something like that, to make it ...
M:
T: . . . came down and installed it and talked to the
volunteers. But those are the things that people don't know
T: - how long you work on, how much you ... grief you've
TRUAX
T: gone through trying to get them done. And how much
grief you go through getting them done. (Laughter) And
that's such a joyous moment when it finally happens, you
know ...
M: Oh, gosh.
37
T: ... when you get it done. So, I'd found him because in
One of the things I felt strongly about and In my
visits to museums, I saw how kids want to touch fur. And I
realized, you know, they see pictures of buffalo, but they
have no idea what they feel like ...
M: ~.
T: ... and the sense of feel is so important. So, I found
out that he had these scraps left over from his brain­tanning.
And so I have . . .
M: What kind of tanning?
T: It's brain-tanning, which is what the Indians used when
they . ..
M: What does that mean, brain-tanning?
T: Well, they take a combination of the brain of the
buffalo, urine, and some manure. It's really a nasty
mixture. And tan ... take the hide off ... take the fur off
with that.
M: Take the fur off.
T: Now, with the brain-tanning that I had done, they just
do the inside and get rid of all the stuff that was attached
to the animal. Because I wanted the fur left on the
TRUAX 38
T: outs ide, so they brain-tanned the inside, what was next
to the body . But that 's the way they do it. And that ' s the
old-fashioned way, and hardly anybody is doing that, as you
can imagine. So , I was thrilled to find him. He teaches
school up in Hot Springs, South Dakota - teaches h igh
school ... just a very shy person . Found out his wife was a
Wend, one day when I was talking to her.
M: Really?
T: She's very quiet and I'd usually get her because her
husband was teaching, and then he would call me back. Or I
would tell her what I wanted. And she said, "You know, we
thought we might like to come to Texas one day." I said,
"Oh, really?". She said, "You know, I'm a Wend. Do you
know what they are?"
M: What?
T: And I said, "Well, yeah, probably not too many people
do, but I do know what you mean." And she didn't know about
the book, so I sent the book, of course. [Wendish Texans) I
mean, they were wonderful people. The ... the artifacts
search was one of the, the things that I spent a great deal
of time on. I ... it was difficult but it was fun, and
finding these artisans who could make things for you . ..
I'll tell you one more story about an artisan. Jo Ann has a
man who comes to the Folk Life Festival who makes beautiful
wood ... wood-carved bowls, and all this kind of thing. I
went out and talked to him. And I said, "I'm going to ask
TRUAX 39
T: you to do ... if you can do something for me that you're
just gonna think is crazy, but I'm gonna ask you anyway." I
said, "I want bowls that are very crude." [for the Pioneer
Tex Kit] And then 1 told him, "1 want a bowl that 1, when
1 hold it up, I can say, 'What would you do if your bowl
broke?', and the kids will say, 'Well, you'd have to make
another bowl, because you couldn't go buy one.' And so I
want a bowl that Dad, who is not a wood-carver, might have
been able to carve." He loved the idea, and he's been
making those bowls for me ever since.
M: Oh, really?
(Laughter)
T: Very crude. Small bowls. You know, just something to
show the kids, and to teach them ... I'm on my soapbox
again ... but to teach them that you ... the way the pioneers
survived was by making-do, by doing it themselves, by
finding a way to solve their problems. Nobody else came in
and solved them for them. You couldn't go to Walmart and
buy it, you know.
M: Dh hm.
T: So, finding artifacts has become ... that's part of what
it has been, of just finding someone who can make a ... a
gourd dipper, something like that. 1 couldn't find gourd
dippers. 1 finally put ... had little ads in weekly
newspapers ...
M: Did you?
T : . .. asking if someone was doing them. It's hard to do
TRUAX
T: them here in Texas because of the humidity - I found
that out.
M: Hrnrnrn.
40
T: But I won't get into the stories about the people who
did gourd dippers for me, but it is a constant keeping your
eyes open and thinking in terms of what will help children
understand history. What will help them connect between
today and yesterday.
M: Yesterday.
T: Yesterday. That's ... that's what the whole thing is all
about. And it's so much fun. And Sandra [Merrifield] has
had so much fun doing Tex Kits. When she took over, there
were only two or three, I suppose maybe cowboy and
Indian and pioneer. Maybe not that many. And she has
developed and got all this big long list of Tex Kits that
she does. It's fantastic. And many times, the scripts are
written by volunteers, you know, because we didn't have time
to write them. I never did write a script. Well, that's
not true; I wrote one in later times, but at training time,
when I was doing the Tex Kit program, it was all corning out
of the head - along with everyone who went with me - because
I didn't have time to sit down and write a script. I just
didn't. And also, I truly felt, and still feel, everybody
has their own way of presenting. If you give someone a box,
or a bag, with stuff and then tell them how that stuff was
made, how it was used, then they can string it together into
TRUAX 41
T: their own story. And then it's their story, and I
think it gets to be a better story.
M: Yeah. Good point.
T: But not everybody likes to do that, so it's good to
have a script. It's good to have a script. But I think
Sandra's still training them that if you want to - as long
as you stick with the facts, you know - you can string your
script together however you want. So ...
M: It depends on how inventive the person lS.
T: Some people are very good at stringing up a story that
will help the kids understand, and other people feel very
uncomfortable with that. Am I telling you the kinds of
things that you want to know?
M: Urn hm. Absolutely.
T: Another thing . .. part of that Tex Kit program that you
might be interested in is, one o f the things, of course,
that we have tried to do is ... One of the problems we had
that we've discussed interminably and had a hard time with,
is how do we in San Antonio be a state-wide organization,
which I always told everybody we were . The Ambassador
program, of course , under John [McGiffert) was ... has
burgeoned and become much more important. It was in
existence for a long time, but wasn't really much, but with
helping Jo Ann. It was basically helping Folk Life
Festival.
M: Was it? You know, when I started this Small-town
TRUAX 42
M: Texas, that drew the Ambassadors in . And it was
enormously successful for them to do, because they were a
part of the program.
T: Yes, yes. Yes. Absolutely . One of the things that
John and I were talking about. You know , how can we get
this into the schools - the Ambassadors? How can we .. . how
can they help the schools? And I listened to this so many
times. And finally one day I said, "Well, John, you know, I
know how this . .. I know how to do this, but it's a lot of
work and I'll do it if you want me to - and that is, have
Tex Kit Ambassadors. Get some of these Ambassadors in here,
train them to use Tex Kits, find money to give them Tex Kits
to take back with them to their home, and have them go into
schools . " Well, of course, John loved it, you know.
M: Sure.
T: So, I started the Tex Kit program then [for
Ambassadors 1 ••.
M: (Laughter) ...
T: When I left, I suppose I had about thirty people doing
Tex Kits in schools.
M: You did?
T: It was a terrible program to try to administer, and I
didn't administer it well, because I didn't have time .
M: This was thirty throughout the whol e state?
T: Yes . And they would take .. . they all had Tex Kits, and
they would take them into the schools and give
TRUAX 43
T: presentations. Some of them, people who had no
background in education and no idea ... just loved the idea of
the Institute and the way we did things. I used to go up to
the ... Annet~~in the Advancement department)
-.---------=~::. .
~gs, you know, and 1
./
there and present my Tex Kits, / to get people interested.
And"-they'd corne uP_t-e~~· say, "Well, I think I could do
that." And of course, the teachers would corne up and say,
"Oh boy!", you know. Teachers immediately can do it, but I
trained ... and the training was skimpy. They were mainly,
basically, out on their own. It's one of those wonderful
programs that just ... just hit, hit a nerve. It hit ... I knew
it would ... it was just ... I didn't want to talk to John about
it because I knew how much work it was gonna be, and how
difficult it was gonna be to keep it going. But,
fortunately, the people in that Ambassador program just
kinda keep things going on their own, you know. They
just ... and I would constantly say, "Well, if you have any
problems, call me." But they, basically, just ... keep on
gOlng ...
M: They were wonderful to work with.
T: Oh, yes. Just great ...
M: I didn't have a bad one in the whole bunch.
T: Oh yes, I enjoyed working with them. I still think of
them fondly - many of them I got to know. And for me,
making contacts was one of the most important parts of my
TRUAX 44
T: job, because then when I needed an artifact, needed
something, needed a contact with a school, I had someone to
call . ..
M: Yeah.
T: El Paso is a perfect example.
M: Oh?
T: Barbara Dent became one of our Ambassadors.
M: Barbara who?
T: Dent. D-E-N-T.
M: D-E-N-T, O.K.
T: And when we took our 'Teach the Teachers' to El Paso,
she was just wonderful help for me. And also ... the other
Barbara; I'm sorry, her last name is just not corning to me
right now ... but she was also in El Paso at that time. So.
Maybe now would be a good time to talk a little bit
about the teacher training.
M: Yeah. Wait a minute . . . I may have to get another tape.
T: O.K.
M: Wait a minute, now.
the 'Teach the Teachers' .
T: That's it. Yeah.
I was gonna ask you to talk about
M: I didn't find out until just recently that they had
cancelled that. I'm just having a fit.
T: Yes.
M: For money .
T: I know. And it was such a little, stinkey bit of money
TRUAX 45
T: that it took to run it, really. And so discouraging
that you cannot get funding for a program that does so much
good.
M: Oh, that was such a good program.
T: One of the . .. one of the days that I recall was the day
that I heard from the Hearst Company, that they were going
to fund the second 'Teach the Teachers'. I was so excited!
I was so pleased. It was my first big grant that I'd
gotten . And I was so thrilled and . .. and encouraged,
thinking, "Oh well, we can get this thing funded, after
all." But it turned out that it probably ... Hearst funded it
because they knew me , and they knew Earl - personal
contacts.
M: Oh . That counts often.
T: So when I wrote to Frank Bennack and asked for the
money, they ... it just, you know .. . it's easier if they know
you.
M: But what happened to it this year? What ...
T: There just wasn't money, and the ... John always found a
way, but he had told us that the money just wasn't gonna be
there. And so, I tried. I tried very hard before I left,
to get it funded for the year before, the year that I left.
I contacted ... I don't know how many grant requests I
made . .. and the problem is the teacher training is not sexey .
You know, it's just not sexy ... it's not like other kinds of
training. And I had determined that I was going to have to
TRUAX 46
T: revamp the whole teacher training thing, to try to find
a way to make it more palatable to granting agencies.
M: Oh . That's too bad.
T: Because, I mean, unfortunately ... either that or find
yourself a 'sugar daddy' who says, "Yes." One time, you
know, the Stefans paid for it.
M: The who?
T: Rhoda Stefan and her husband were on our board, and
after we had one of our development meetings ... and I had
talked about Teach the Teachers and how important it was ...
she came up and said that they would fund it. Bless her
heart! Just ... just, you know, it's so hard when you don't
have the money. I know this is something that John grieves
about, too, is that so many wonderful projects didn't get
off the ground, because there just wasn't money. And he and
I talked about this so much.
END OF TAPE I, Side 2
TAPE II, Side 1
T: Teach the Teachers started ... maybe it would be good to
say it's forma l name is "Institute of Texas History and
Culture" . .. "Institute Q1! Texas History and Culture". But
because that's such a long title, it became known as "Teach
the Teachers". And eventually, I even told the teachers
that that's what it was called, because, I said, "If any of
our staf f or volunteers or anybody start s talking to you,
TRUAX
T: you won't know what we're talking about." But at any
rate, the teachers didn't seem to mind. I didn't
47
think ... probably they might not like that, but they . . . they
didn't seem to mind. How it started, OK, was back with the
same thing when we ... when we determined that there was going
to be educational reform, and knew essential elements that
were required to be taught. Suddenly 4th grade teachers
were having to teach Texas history. They had never taught
it in the past.
M: Oh, they hadn't?
T: There were no textbooks. There were no materials at
their grade level. They were just absolutely crying to me.
I got telephone calls and I found out later that T.E.A. -
Texas Education Association - was referring them to me. And
T.S.H.A. - Texas State Historical Association - was
referring them to me.
M: Really?
T: So from all around the state, I was getting cal ls, "How
can we do ... ? Help us!" I did the best I could for each of
them, which wasn't much, because we didn't have much written
down. And then I said, "OK. We need to do some teacher
training right now!" And that's when we ... l talked to John,
and he agreed. And I talked to Allan Kownslar from Trinity,
Amy Jo Baker from S . A.l.S.D., and Barbara Stanush, and
myself. OK. We got together and we came up with this first
plan. It was funded by Hunts Mark from UTSA .
TRUAX
M:
48
T: Yes. We didn't know how we were going to pay for it,
and he had ... at one time ... was ... had some monies available
T: to the different components, and . .. but they had to be
research-oriented. So, I wrote up something that made this
more research-oriented, and got the money immediately, which
was wonderful. We could go then ... go ahead.
M: Yes.
T: So, that was the first year. We had one session for
4th and 7th grade teachers, because, of course, they
continue to teach Texas history at 7th grade - 4th and 7th.
M: They skip 5th and 6th?
T: Yeah. Their regular .. . they have . .. history progresses -
4th grade is Texas history, 5th grade is United States
history , 6th grade is world history.
M: I see. Then they corne back ...
T: Then they corne back to Texas history, and then American
history, and so forth. So this thing was so successful,
even though when I look back on it now, I think, "Oh, my
gosh," because we have improved it so much, over the years.
But it was ... the teachers loved it, because it was based on
hands-on, inquiry process .. .
M: Sure.
T: ... and Allan Kownslar from Trinity is an absolute gem,
just a gem. John would agree with me on that, I know.
M: Allan ... How do you spell his last name?
TRUAX 49
T: K-O-W-N-S-L-A-R. He's a history professor at Trinity.
And he also believes in this inquiry process, and that's the
way he teaches history at Trinity!
M: I'll be darned.
T : He's one of the most popular teachers over there
because ...
M: Oh, is he?
T: . . . Oh, well, they l ove it - the students love it. They
learn. They learn history . So that was the first year.
Then we realized it was very difficult to deal with, because
we were asking for the lesson plan to deal with 4th grade
and 7th grade together, because the requirements were
different. So the next year, we then went to two separate
sessions, so that meant one two-week session for 4th grade
and then one two-week session for 7th grade.
M: So that's the way they ...
T: That was the year that Hearst gave us money for it.
M: ~.
T: And each year, we would sit down, after the workshop,
and see how we felt that it might be improved. We would
see, maybe ... I don't want to say 'problems', because the
evaluations always were absolutely wonderful. The teachers
thought they were terrific. But we, as the presenters, as
the people in charge , constantly improved and improved,
unti l, I feel . .. the session, the fifth session - and we did
eight - the fifth session, we came up with, probably, the
TRUAX
T: strongest teacher training. Allan Kownslar says it's
the best teacher training he's ever seen .
M: Good .
50
T: He says .. . he says this workshop, and the other things
that we have done in teachers' training, are the ... he really
feels they are. He said they are just the tightest, least
time - lost, but most fun for the teacher. Because we realize
that if you're going to keep teachers for two weeks - all
day, every day - you .. . you cannot just, you know, you have
to lighten it up some .
M: Um hm.
T: And they loved it . We've had no problems with Teach
the Teachers.
M: I've never heard anything but just wild enthusiasm
about the program.
T: And it made ... what was in the little editorial in the
paper was so true. It made a lasting difference in the way
they taught. And to have something like that not go on,
hurts .
M: I can't believe it!
T: Because there are so few things that really are done to
help teachers really improve. Many letters in my files that
say, "Bonnie, I always knew that I wasn't doing the right
kind of teaching, and now that I've had the class, I am!
And it's made all the difference in the world to me and to
my students. I love teaching again ... ", which is important,
TRUAX 51
T: too.
M: Yes.
T: The teachers like to teach that way, once they have
been shown how to do it. So it's ... it's a very wonderful
thing.
We took it to El Paso, which was a tremendous lot of
work, because here we've got the Back-40, we have the
exhibit floor, we have all the Tex kits, we have all the
traveling trunks, all these marvelous hands-on materials.
And Lynn Highley and I, and Allan Kownslar took it to El
Paso. It was the hardest thing, the most difficult thing
I've ever done in my entire life.
M: Why did you go to El Paso?
T: John ... and this was part of this trying to be part of
the whole state.
M: Oh .
T : See, in order not to become a San Antonio museum ... this
is what John and I talked about ... in order for that not to
happen, we had to become state-wide .
different ways of trying to do that.
We discussed so many
But one of the ways
John felt strongly about was , Teach the Teachers was so
strong, let's take it out. Oh, we worked and worked and
worked on that.
M: Um hm.
T: And, finally, took it to El Paso. It was very, very
expensive. It was very successful. We had the same kind
TRUAX 52
T : of .. .
M: It was successful?
T: Yeah, they .. . they ... the evaluations - and I still have
people that I run into who say, "Oh, I'm still teaching your
way." So, it worked. It worked. But it was ... you know,
there are some projects that are just really doomed not to
be done, because of the combination of money involved, which
was substantial, and the staff. It just, really, tore up,
it was so much work and so difficult, being away from
the ... you're not in your own building, you don't have your
own people - there's no Theresa to turn to. There 's no Dan
Christian, the people that I know I could get on the phone
and say, "Help!" And they'd be there. When you're not at
home, those people aren't there. And you really realize,
then, how much the staff, here, backs up all your program.
So, it was ... it was worthwhile; I'm glad we did it. Allan
and I were joking about it the other day. You know, he
agrees. It was ... he said, "Those are two weeks I don't ever
want to do again ." An unfamiliar library, the materials
were not there that we needed, you know. It was ... the whole
thing was just ...
M: You probably should have them allover the state.
T: Yeah. Absolutely. One of the things that John and I
talked about that - you know, should the ship come in -
would be to have educational departments in major
metropolitan areas or throughout the state, like up in
TRUAX 53
T: Dallas, Houston, EI Paso, down in the Valley, maybe at
Laredo State or someplace, where you could keep Tex kits and
traveling trunks, and keep educators ... could do teacher
training, Tex kits, the whole thing. That would make the
Institute a state-wide organization.
M: Could you ever .. . did you ever consider taking it into
the higher-education places - universities, col l eges around
the state?
T: Yes, I've done some of that.
M: Have you?
T: Yes . Uh huh. And it's . .. when ... when you go there,
it's very well received, just as it is . . .
M: I should think it would be.
T : ... anyplace else. The . . . we did the one in EI Paso
through the University of Texas at EI Paso .
M: Oh .
T: Another reason that we were going out with Teach the
Teachers was that Hans Mark wanted us to . He wanted this .
Hans Mark was a wonderful backer of the Institute. I don't
know if people realize ...
M: I don't think so, because there was so much criticism
of .. . you know, criticism at the beginning. And they were
never followed up.
T: He . . . he supported my programs completely .
M: Did he?
T : I can remember a time when I was doing a Tex kit in
TRUAX 54
T: the ... during Folklife Festival, and he and his wife
were there. He just loved .. . just absolutely was taken by
the presenting of artifacts, as was she. But he and I ended
up on our knees, on the floor, with me explaining to him ~n
the midst of all these people, having a cocktail party. I'm
down on my knees with Hans Mark, explaining these artifacts.
People don't realize that about him.
M: No.
T: He wanted the Institute to become what we wanted it to
become - a state-wide educational institution. And he
backed ... it was because of him that we went the extra mile
on trying to get this Teach the Teachers out into the
different universities.
M: Oh.
T: The programs that I took to universities, on a much
smaller scale, they were fine. Universities are very
bureaucratic.
M: Yeah.
T: You probably know that.
M: Yes, I do.
T: Probably worse than anything I know. Very, very
bureaucratic. And very difficult to get any new ideas in.
This might be a good time to talk about UTSA and the
work I did with them, because before we were part of UTSA,
even as just one of the components of the UT system, I was
working with all the education departments, or with anyone
TRUAX 55
T: who wanted to work with me, at the different
universities. And, of course, UTSA was the most prominent.
M: John talked quite a bit about that in this area ... he
didn't like it.
T: Yeah. I t was very important, and the ... my work with
them was fine. John was different. He had different
experiences from mine . I was working with Marian Martinello
and the Education Department, people whom I had called on to
do parts of my Teach the Teachers, parts of my other
training. They had helped me and from that department,
many, many of those people. I was ... served on a lot of their
committees. I was on a committee - what did they call that
program? We went out to Gardendale Elementary and ... I can't
remember what they called it - but at any rate, I had served
with them on that committee, had gone out there and we were
trying to help Gardendale, deep on the southwest side. They,
through this project, began to teach a class down here at
the Institute called Conceptual Approaches to Teaching in
the Elementary School. And it was wonderful. Marian and I
got together and discussed it, and then I got my
interpretive staff and some docents - some volunteers. She
brought her teachers - her teacher candidates, people who
are training to be teachers - down to the Institute. They
chose one of the areas, and they came down here and taught
in that area, just like my interpreters were doing.
M: Oh, really?
TRUAX 56
T: Gave them hands-on practice that was invaluable in
getting them to teach in school the way we teach.
M: ~.
T: Marian is very committed to this. And it was just ...
it was marvelous. We did it for years, and I'll bet you
didn't know about it. I'll bet many people here didn't know
about it. It was a very direct contact with UTSA and was
very good for both of us - very good for us and very good
for ... gave UTSA a place to ... for their students to practice
teaching ...
M: Teaching?
T: ... within the real environment.
M: ... wonderful, yeah.
T: So, it worked. And also, along the way, other little
things. They have always, from them first that I came, UTSA
education professors have brought their education history
students down to the Institute for a presentation. And mine
had changed over the years from talking about our products
and our exhibit floor to talking about our philosophy, and I
had beefed it up quite a bit, trying to ... Marian and Jo
got a kick out of it, because they said that I'd gone from
being a helper to being ... trying to take their jobs and
teach their two students how to teach, because I thought,
oh, you know, they're going out in the classroom.
M: Sure.
T: So, they liked it. We always ... I've always had a
TRUAX 57
T: wonderful relationship with the people at UTSA in the
education ... all people! I haven't had any problems with
anyone at UTSA. But I haven't had to deal with some of the
other things that have gone on that have been very
difficult ...
M: Yeah.
T: ... for the Institute and very detrimental to the
Institute. So ...
M: That's too bad, too.
T: So ... but at any rate, we did have these direct links,
and then also, with them, I did Upward Bound, which was ...
M: Like ...
T: ... still going on. I don't know if you knew about
Upward Bound.
M:
T: Upward Bound - working with school, high school
students?
M: No, I guess not.
T: Well, it's a ... it's a national program, and UTSA
had ... had applied for and had received a grant. And they
felt that it was going to be pretty boring for the kids. So
they carne to me and said, you know, "Can we work out
something where we do this at the Institute?" And I worked
that out with Jim. Jim and I worked on it in the beginning.
And then, finally, it fell to me. John was very interested
in it. And the idea was that these were students
TRUAX 58
T: who ... from ... who had ... The rules are, neither parent
must have graduated, or had gone to college.
M: Oh, mercy.
T: They must be from very low income families, and
students who were not the top-notch students, because
they're probably gonna go on to college anyway. These are
the ones who, with a little bit of help and encouragement,
would probably go on to college. And that's what this is
all about. Now, I'm sold ... I believe in this to my core,
and worked very hard on that program, Esther. I really did.
We got docents and staff, every year, to take some of those
students, work with them. They'd corne down here to the
library and they would do a project. It was great. It was
a lot of work. It was Saturdays. And probably ...
M: Why did one parents have to be college-educated. I
don't understand that.
T: No. No parent. The parents couldn't ... what we were
looking for ... What the rule is, is that parents ... the kids
who probably won't go to college ...
M: Yeah.
T: ... unless you give them encouragement.
M: I see.
T: And so, that's why they want kids who ... who probably . ..
And I can relate to that, because my parents were farming
people, and when I was in high school ... when I was a senior
in high school ... one of my teachers said to me, "You know,
TRUAX 59
T: you ought to go to college." And, Esther, I had never
even thought about it.
M: You hadn't?
T: No. I just was not part of that kind of a background.
M: Urn hm.
T: You . . . your parents didn't go to college . No one in my
family - extended family - had gone to college. And so ...
M: Did you have brothers?
T: An older sister and a younger sister .
M: One of my volunteers had two brothers, and her .. . her
parents didn't think the girl should be educated - only the
boys.
T: Well, I didn't have that problem. My . .. my problem was
because my father, although he himself had gone away from
home for a couple years to school, I don't think it was
college; I really think it was high school . .. He was the
old- fashioned parent - Scandinavian parent - who .. . who
didn't think you should leave home , and who thought you
ought to get married and have babies, you know .
M: Yeah.
T : So, that was . . . But I could relate to these kids,
because they were not going to go to college unless somebody
helped them to see that they could.
M: If they were willing to take the extra step . . .
T : Yeah . So, they ... they wouldn't ... they . . . This was
just part of it. At UTSA they were being given training in
TRUAX 60
T: reading, if they needed help in reading, in math, if
they needed help in math. They were being given help in
study skills. So many times, they have no study skills.
M: My gosh!
T: And so those kids are being prepared to go to college,
and they will help them get help - financial help - when
they .. .
M: And you were in on that. My word, what a ...
T: So .. .
M: ... varied life you led.
T: It was very exciting. And we changed that program
every year, too, to make it ... what we felt would be, would
be better. All kinds of people have helped ...
M: Are those the kids that came every Saturday?
T: Yes. Yes. High school kids.
M: Oh, I was in that for a brief time. I remember that.
T: Yeah, yeah.
M: Anything you can do, to get those kids started, is
worth anything.
T: Oh, yes. And, you know, when we ... we're so used to
working with, at the most, 7th grade. Most of the time, 4th
grade, 7th. So, you know ... those ... And you go into Upward
Bound, and here are all these big kids, and you .. . I'm
trained in high school education, so it wasn't such a shock
to me, because 1 . .. 1 could ... I have taught in high school.
But Nancy [McNaulj was not, and it was a little bit more
TRUAX 61
T: difficult for her to adjust to these big ... big boys,
you know.
M: Is it going on today?
T: Yes. It went on last year. I don't know beyond that,
but I do know it went on last year. So. It's a wonderful
program .
things.
And it's a lot of work, just like these other
And I think maybe the thing is, Esther, that we
don't do anything half-way. I am a perfectionist, as far as
programs go, and so is Nancy and she was my main helper on
these things. And we don't ... we can't do it . . . we aren't
comfortable with it if it isn't done right. So, it takes an
immense amount of work. And when we say, "done right," we
mean that they learn. That's it. We don't care about the
rest of it. It has to be ... it has to have an end result of
being educational or it doesn't help us ...
M: Also, you have to inject some enthusiasm in there, too.
T: Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
M: Or else they're not going to go on.
T: That is absolutely right.
M: I'm sure you've been very successful with it .
T: So, t hat was . .. that, also, we did with UTSA, and, as I
say, I've had a great relationship with the people out
there. And I've . . . probably Barbara Harp knows about a lot
of these things that we've done.
M:
T: I ... see my little notes here and see if there's
TRUAX 62
T: something else that we haven't. Yeah, there is a very
important thing we haven't talked about.
M: What?
T: And that's publ i c programming.
M: Public programming?
T : Yeah. During the ...
M: What is that?
T: Well, that's Pioneer Sunday, and ...
M: Oh .. .
T: ... those days. When I carne, and I don't really
remember all of this back in the background. I don't
remember how these things started, except they were from my
enthusiasm. 1 ... 1 know that I was always looking for ways
to relate to the community. I felt it was very important.
I've always felt the Institute did not relate well to the
community until the last four or five years that I was here.
But there was a time when we almost pushed the community
back, you know ; we didn 't really ... I was always trying to
find ways to relate. And I remember Mary Ann Broney was
doing something around the Canary Islanders. I did a little
Canary Island ... I did a tortulia, she called it, here at the
Institute . And that went on for a while, and I think,
probably that encouraged me to think that maybe I could do
this. It's another one of these things that I didn't know I
could do, so ...
M: Urn hm.
TRUAX 63
T: But I found I wanted to spread this word more, you
know. It all was, "Let's get people here; let's let them
know about the Institute." Pioneer Sunday was started for
that exact reason. People were not using the Back 40.
People didn't know about the Institute. Let's get 'em down
here someway or another. So, we had Pioneer Sunday. I just
loved that program, and did that for many, many years. In
fact, I remember one year when I was out there on the Back
40 with Pioneer Sunday, and the man who was running the
Edwards Aquifer District at the time, asked who was in
charge and came up and talked to me, and he said, "You know,
pioneers were so dependent on water," and he said, "I don't
see anything here about water.' And I said, "No, that's
right. There really isn't anything." And he said, "Well,
I'd be glad to work with you and maybe we could work
something out so that you could begin to teach about the
importance of water." And that's how we got the windmill.
M: Oh, really?
T: This man came to Pioneer Sunday and talked to me.
M: I'll be darned.
T: So, those little things happen, you know ...
M: Urn hm.
T: ... and you look back ten years later and you say, "Oh
yeah, that's how that happened." Takes a long time, of
course. It was years and years and years before we had any
end product of that. But Halloween - the Halloween thing we
TRUAX 64
T: did - started the same way ... let's get some people in
the Institute; let's have some fun and get some kids in
here; do things for families. I had taken a course or a
little seminar at the Smithsonian on families in museums ...
M: Oh?
T: ... and learned a lot from that. That helped me a lot,
along the way. In fact, I was very fortunate that there
were two seminars that I went to. I'd been here about two
or three years, long enough to have had some experience and
still be really dumb about museums, you know. I just really
didn't know too much about museums. I knew a lot more about
education.
M: That's what you should know ...
T: I went to an AA ... I can't remember the initials of
this ...
M: AAUW?
T : No. It wasn't that; I started to say that. But I
don't think I have that written down here. It was a
conference at Williamsburg - Colonial Williamsburg. And it
was the American Association for State and Local History
that ran it.
M: Oh.
T: It was for a week, and we lived there on the grounds,
and I learned so much from that, about museums, which as I
said, I knew nothing about. And, really, not many people
here did. There were no experts here on museums. And
TRUAX 65
T: so ... and then I made all these contacts with other
people. And because it was Williamsburg, where they do
hands-on program, I think that drew a lot of other people
who do hands-on programs. I have contacts that I called,
back and forth, but it came just at the right time for me.
I learned a lot . And it was ... it was good. The other one
was the following year, and learned a lot from that one,
too. So, those were good things that happened to me that I
was fortunate that the McGuires and Patrick backed me up on
that, and sent me off to go and learn from them.
M: You could have had people who were just absolutely at
odds with you.
T: Oh yeah.
M: You were so lucky.
T: I've been ... I have had backing. I just ... you know,
the ... my supervisor has ... I've always had excellent
backing. There have been difficulties, but they haven't
been with the ... that the supervisor wasn't backing me.
M: Yeah.
T: The main problems we've had is the problem that
educators often have, and that is, that many people do not
feel that it's important - that education is important.
And, to me, it is ... it's the life blood, you know. I just
feel that if we don't ...
M: Oh, sure.
T: .. . educate, we're lost. Well, I was trying to talk
TRUAX 66
T: about, and forgetting all about talking about, the
public programming. We ... we went along doing public
programming by the skin of our teeth - no money - just doing
it, you know. Finding, you know, people donating, and so
forth.
M: As mother used to say, hand to mouth.
T: Yeah. And then we went to ... we closed the exhibit
floor, remember, for carpeting .. .
M: You what?
T: Remember when we closed the exhibit floor for
carpeting?
M: Yeah.
T: Well, I told John, when he said he was going to do it,
I said, "You realize that people will think we have gone
away forever." Oh well, he didn't ... I ... I. .. Years later,
I had people say, "Why, I thought the Institute closed.",
you know.
M: Yeah.
T: They just ... people just get this idea ...
M: Urn hm.
T: So, I said, "We gotta have something really glitzy, to
open. We gotta do something really great." And he said,
"OK." And so, I asked if I could plan it. And that's when
we did Celebrate Texans, which was probably the ... one of the
most successful things we did.
M: Oh?
TRUAX 67
T: But at the same time that we were gonna do that, I
said, "You know, I think we need to have a more planned way
to do this public programming, because," I said, "I'm just
doing them when I can, and they are too important to leave
to that ... I'd like to start a committee, to tell me."
Because I don't . .. you know, I was getting more and more
responsibilities and less and less time.
Public Programming Committee.
M: Oh, you did?
So, I started the
T: Yes. And it ... it was wonderful, because we ... The
first meeting, we met down in the auditorium, divided the
black-board up into months and we said, "We gotta have
something every month."
M: Oh, my!
T: Oh, Esther, it was so much fun. People ... the only
requirement I had for people to be on the committee was that
they have an open mind, that they be able to discuss
anything , that no idea was too silly or too weird or too
anything, and that they be enthusiastic. And I was blessed
with a committee that just was that way. And then, in
addition to doing more public programming of our own - which
we did and, as you know, I even had a staff person ... Now
there's a staff person who does public programming. We ... I
would go to Jim and say, "We need a seminar," you know, "We
need something from Research; we can't just have these
things that I'm doing that are for families. We need things
TRUAX
T: for researchers , for historians and things like
that ... "
M: Urn hIn.
68
T: So, because someone was goading and pushing, more
things got done. And it ... I think it's been one of the best
things that I did for the Institute.
M: Do you, really?
T: Yeah. I really do.
M: John talked a lot about that.
T: Yeah . John feels my s trongest point is my programming
ability. He really does. He feels that that is one of the
things that I do best, is think up and carry through on
way ... on programming, on different , all different ... not just
my own, not just the ones that I was responsible for, but
for ... And it's because I think it's so important, you
know? I just feel that these things ... and I'm so dreadfully
afraid that they're being dropped, you know. It's so
important that these things continue, like the Children's ...
This was another very exciting thing for me, was the
Chi ldren's Festival. Jo Ann Andera and Jo Ann's
assistant . .. what's her name? .. and Nancy went to a
Children's Festival on the east coast. I don't recall
exactly where it was ...
M: Oh, did they?
T: They came back all excited. And when they told me
about it, I was so excited. I thought, "Oh, this is what
TRUAX 69
T: the I nstitu t e needs. This is what we need . " And as I
thought about it, I realized that I fe l t it needed to be
part of Fiesta .
M: Fiesta . uh huh.
T : Because we had never really .. .
END OF TAPE II, Side 1
TAPE II , Side 2
T: To me, it needed to be in the Spring. It was one of
the times of year that we , as a committee, had been
struggling with, And so, I p l anned it . . . and we had Vivis on
the staff at that time .. . and vivis and I talked about it and
a gal from UTSA ... gosh, can't remember; her husband's one of
the Vice Pres i dents out there; this is awful ... At any
rate, she was working with us on it . Money was the big
problem. So , vivis wrote the most marvelous paper . Vivis
Lemmons was an absolute gem on that computer and at getting
grants .
M: Was she? I'll bet . . .
T: She ... yeah . .. she wrote the most marvelous grant
application, and we went out to USAA and presented it, and
we got the money ! I was so thrilled .. . because thi s is ... ten
years you think about something, and you think, "How can I
pull this off? I don ' t know how to pull it off. I don't
have the staff and I don't have the money and I don't have
the backing here in the Institute ...
M: Um hm .
TRUAX 70
T: ... you know, all this kind of things. But we got it
done, and of course, this was the second year, and 1 .. . 1
really think it will continue. I think that that's one of
the things that will go on. So, that was very exciting for
me, because that Children's Festival is done just the way we
do everthing else - it's that same educational philosophy.
And it's ... it's neat, it's wonderful to work with something
that meets with instantaneous success - not because of
having done it yourself. I don't pat myself on the back.
It's because the concept is perfect. It's just that people
learn that way ...
M: Sure.
T: ... people recognize it right away. Children just take
to it. It's just a marvelous, marvelous thing. So, I've
been blessed with that, that I've had - the time I've been
here - the concept was always there. How many ways do you
spin o ff from that concept? There is no end to it, you
know, you just ... And a different person will come along,
and they'll have a new idea. vivis was full of ideas, full
of ideas. One of the things that I wish I'd had time to do
before we talked, was to sit down and think how things have
changed in this philosophy, from the time I came to the time
I left. I've done something about it, and I cannot really
come up with anything substantive.
M: Oh?
T: All I can come up with is a little off-shoot. When you
TRUAX 71
T: really pin it down, it comes back to what was always
being done. So, I don't know that there has been a change;
I need to do some more serious thinking about it. But, you
know, you're too busy working, to think. That's one of the
things I've noticed since I retired, is that I have time to
think now. And I'm able to reflect on some of the things
that happened and come to more conclusions about them that I
wasn't even ... I just had to throw them out. I
couldn't think about it anymore.
M: I know exactly ...
T: There just isn't time. So ...
M: Did you ... All this time you were ... you were
innovating and doing all these wonderful things, you didn't
have an awful lot of help, did you?
T: Well, when John [McGiffertl took over ... and I don't
really know what year that was ... I'm sorry that didn't go
back and do that. When Jack left and John really,
basically, took over, the ... he saw, immediately, that I
needed a secretary or an administrative assistant. At the
time, it was office help.
M: Oh?
T: And that's when I got Jean Browning. And then Jean
t ook over the tours ...
M: Oh.
T: And she, now, is an ... that position is an
administrative assistant. So she is able to do a lot of
TRUAX 72
T: the ... of the financial work and things like that -
gradual. There's been more help come along. But still,
I've had ... I've leaned on, of course, that person. But that
person is booking tours, so that person cannot do just an
awful lot of things for you. Getting Nancy, getting the
assistant, which was the ...
M: What is Nancy's last name?
T: McNaul. M-c, Capital N-a-u-l. And she was hired as my
assistant, but also as the person who was going to worry
about Teach the Teachers and other teacher training. In
addition to that, she has done ... taken over some of the
public programming , a lthough she's now trying to get rid of
that, too. But having Jean, helped me tremendously, because
of course, that released Sandra to do Tex Kits full time,
which she desperately needed, to get out from under that
desk and those tour bookings - takes a tremendous amount of
time. Then, getting Nancy helped me, because I had never,
really, had anyone to talk to about teacher training and
those things.
M: You were always in meetings.
T: I was alone. I was ginning it up alone, and it was
wonderful for me to be able to call Nancy in and say, "What
do you think?" or "Help me write this letter." - that kind
of thing. Because I hadn't had anybody like that. And I
didn't realize how wonderful it was, 'til I had her, and
then I . .. I thought, "How did I get along all these years?
TRUAX 73
T : How did I do all this?" I have never thought that
writing was my strong suit. I guess maybe I'm wrong,
because Barbara Stanush, who I treasure, feels that I write
well. Writing was always very difficult for me, very time­consuming,
and I did SO much writing. I did SO much
writing ...
M: I'll bet you did.
T: ... that . .. that was always one of the things that I
found very time- c onsuming and one of the reasons that I
worked early and late and weekends and things like that,
trying to get things done. One of the things I did in order
to get work done . .. and maybe it's important that I talk
about my administrative style ... and that is, because this lS
the way I like to be treated. I would give someone a
project, or they would come to me and say, "I would like
to . .. " Let's take Ginna Frnka as an example. Ginna came to
me and said , "I would like to do a Back 40 camp program
during the summer." And I said, "Well, Ginna, we've tried
that kind of thing, and we haven't been very successful. We
tried a summer school program, and it really bombed, but if
you want to try, I'm going to have to ask you before we
invest any real money into it, to come to me with a really
firm idea of what you want to do." Which she did.
M: Urn hm.
T: She came to me, and then it was her project. And the
T: only time that she checked back with me was when .. . to
TRUAX 74
T: tell me how she was doing, which of course, I want to
know. But if she had any problems or couldn't get something
done and needed some help getting something done. And
that's the way I've always . . . that saved me a lot of time,
because if ... I always felt that my staff was capable of
doing great things. So, I gave them a project, and they
only came to me to let me know how it was going, for advice
and counsel, for help. But I never, ever told them how to
do it. Never. I do not believe in that.
M: That's a good administrator.
T: I just will not tell anyone how to do a project. And
I've had one staff person who was very uncomfortable with
that.
M: Oh?
T: And she had to leave, eventually, because she wanted to
be told exactly what to do. I thought she'd grow into the
job. She's a wonderful person. But she never, ever was
comfortable with that. Most people love it. They may find
it difficult in the beginning, but they love it after they
get used to it.
M: I should think so.
T: But that is ... And we had weekly staff meetings when
people would report on how their projects were going, so
that the whole department knew what was going on. And I
also had an open door policy which really was open. If you
T: want to come in and just say, "Hi", you know, " Here's
TRUAX 75
T: pictures of my baby.", that's fine. Same way with the
docents. That was fine with me. I wanted them to feel that
I was there to talk to about their problems, about their fun
times, and about their work - all those things.
That ... that's one thing that freed me up. That style , I
realized eventually, freed me up to get more done, because I
was not constantly checking on people or ... I gave
them ... they would have to prove to me that they were not
worthy of my trust before I would do that.
M: Yeah ...
T: Another thing that we haven't talked about and that's
so important - I could not have done this without my
volunteers. I depended on those volunteers from the day I
arrived. From the day I arrived, I knew I could call Mary
Alice Macia - that was her name - and say, "Mary Alice, I've
got a group of fourth graders coming out to the Back 40.
Could you come and do the schoolhouse?" She was so
wonderful in that schoolhouse. She had been a school
teacher, and she loved doing that schoolhouse presentation.
It was a little , tiny schoolhouse we had .
M: Um hm.
T: And I could call her and if she coul d, she would turn
the world over to come out there and do that for me. There
have always been volunteers who would come through for you
when you needed help, whether it was for teacher training or
T: for Elderhostel. We haven't talked about Elderhostel -
TRUAX
T: vivis and I worked on that. That was a
wonderful ... that's something, also, the Institute needs to
continue doing.
M: That's going on to this very day.
T: Yeah. Those are things that the volunteers do such a
marvelous ... 1 can't think of anything I did that I didn't
depend on volunteers.
M: Oh, I couldn't have done my job without them ... I
couldn't begin ...
76
T: Absolutely. When I think of the way that Tex Kit
program started and the way those volunteers went into that
stinky room and picked up those ... that stuff, put it in
their car, went out to schools without ... I just ... You
know, it's amazing. It's amazing. Emily Wofford has done
so many things for me, 1 ... 1 would be hard-put to figure out
how many or to make a list. But Emily carne into me one time
and told me, she said, "You know, Bonnie, I used to be shy,
but," she said, "every s ince I met you, I'm real noisy now."
[Laughter]
M: That's a good remark, isn't it?
T : She had ... she had had an opportunity to find out. And
I said, I know what she means because she had an opportunity
to find out that she could do things that she didn't know
that she could do.
M: Sure. Like you did.
T: Yes. And so, it was just .. . that was it. It was so
TRUAX 77
T: rewarding. It has been a very .. . it 's a very rewarding
p lace to work, a very frustrating place to work.
M: Yeah.
T: I don't ... I cannot imagine ... and I haven't worked a lot
o f places, but I have worked ... I've worked in department
stores , I have worked in schools, I've been around
universities. I have never seen a place that had such
talent. Such brains!
M: Yeah.
So much intelligence ...
T: ... as the Institute. And I'm talking not where you
expect it, but I mean down in Production and in Buildings
and Grounds - people who just amaze you with what they can
do with their talent and at their loving, their giving
attitude when .. . when you have a project that they can
believe in.
M: Urn hm.
T: You know. I found that I could go to anybody in this
building and if I caught them where they felt the importance
of something, they would turn over heaven and earth to get
done for you what you wanted.
M: Well, an awful lot goes back to how theY're approached,
who's doing the approaching.
T: I imagine ... yeah, I imagine that's right. The .. . Dan
Christian is a person who I could depend on, always. And
Dan . .. Dan would just do marvelous work for me. What I liked
about Dan, particularly, was he's very intelligent. I don't
TRUAX 78
T: know if people know how intelligent Dan is. Very
intelligent. And he is a self-starter.
M: Oh .
T: Dan does not come to you and ask you five thousand
questions. Dan sees the problem. Dan solves the problem.
M: Does he?
T: That's wonderful. When you're running a Pioneer
Sunday, you do not want somebody to have to come and find
you and say, "Would it be alright if I moved this tent peg
five inches so people won't stumble over it?" You want
somebody who'll move it, you know.
M: Sure.
T: And he will. I mean, Dan is ... and that's just a small
example of what Dan does, but . .. One time when we were
having Pioneer Sunday and it was pouring down rain, and I
drove down and I could hardly see ... I got here, parked on
the hill, the guard came out in his little covered cart and
got me, took me down to the Institute, and there was Dan.
And I said, "Oh God, Dan, what are we gonna do?" He said,
"Well, I have ... " And he had moved some of the stuff up on
the patio; he had already done this. Because .. ,now that was
in our rain plan. I mean, it's not like we had not talked
about it. But most people would have waited for me to come,
and it would have been too late.
M: Sure .
T: It would have been too late. So. I was waiting at
TRUAX 79
T: home, trying to decide, is it going to quit raining?
What's it going to do? Dan took care of it. I mean, he's
just saved my bacon so many times.
M: You know ...
T: Dave Garrison - wonderful, wonderful, talented person.
M: Urn hm.
T: Just ... the one room schoolhouse he designed, the puppet
theater he designed, and he's wonderful. There's so many
people whose names I don't remember who worked on the
traveling trunks, who did a marvelous job of it, of
designing that cowboy traveling trunk and the Indian
traveling trunk, and finding ways to do ... I didn't know
how to do anything. All I could do was tell them what I
wanted as an end result. And, by that I don't mean I want a
piece of hide on the back, that when you lift it up it says,
"please touch." Al l I could say was, somewhere I want them
to get the idea - the teacher and the kids - the idea that
you're to touch all this stuff. And who that was? Who
designed that - someone down in production came up with this
marvelous hide that catches your eye the minute you open it
up - piece of h i de, and on it is stamped this, you know,
marvelous thing about, "Please touch." That kind of thing,
you know, that is so helpful to a person who ... who is just
groping, like I was.
M: But, my lord, you were so busy and so involved ...
T: It was so much fun .
TRUAX
M:
T:
M:
T:
~or so many years you ... What year did you retire?
I retired in 1992 - January 31st, 1992.
Have you missed us an awful lot?
1 miss the people. I miss the people so much. I do
not miss the work.
M: You don't?
T: I ... No, I must have been burned out, because ...
M: You got it all out of your system ...
80
T: ... 1 just ... I have no, no desire to plunge back in. I
want somebody else to do it. I do. I don't want it to
quit, but... I'll tell you what I tell the volunteers ... I
run into them - they are everywhere, four hundred of 'em,
let's face it!
M: Yeah.
T: I run into them allover, and they say, "Oh, Bonnie,
it's not the same since you left." Almost all of them say
the same thing. And I always tell them, "It won't be the
same. It will be different, but that's not bad."
M: No.
T: That's not bad, at all. As long as what the Institute
does continues to be done, and continues to be done well ...
M: Yeah.
T: ... it doesn't have to be done the same way. And you
don't need one person to do it. You just need the
enthusiasm to continue. And I think that can happen. I
think that ... 1 think ... Another theory I have, is that the
TRUAX 81
T: Institute will be very hard to hurt, desperately,
because it's so wonderful, and so many people know that it
is, that no matter what mistakes are made, that I think the
Institute will still survive.
M: Do you?
T: I think it will. It will take a while to come back,
but I think it will survive. I've always felt that way.
Now, that might be my optimism speaking. I wouldn't want to
say that it wasn't. But I do feel that when you have
something like this that is so unique, I have never found
any place, anywhere else that is anything like it.
M: Uh huh.
T : There just isn't any place. When you have something
that unique, that is so successful when it reaches people,
so successful that it is ... it's got to survive in some way.
M: The thing that troubles me, now, is they've hired this
woman, and she doesn't show up. Month after month. Where
the heck is she?
T: I guess ...
M: I can't get any kind of an answer out of, out of
anybody. She was hired. Everybody ... I didn't happen to be
there the morning they interviewed, but everybody was fond
of her, thought she was wonderful. Her husband has a job at
Trinity. Everything is all set. Where is she?
T: I don't know.
M: And nobody ... nobody can tell me where she is.
TRUAX 82
T: I really don't k now.
M: But we need .. . we need somebody over ... somebody running
this place.
T: Everything is drifting. It's so terribly unfair to
Nancy, who is running my desk and hers .
M: She doesn't want it, either .
T: No. And she .. .
M: She's made it very ...
T: ... was given the opportunity to compete for the job,
and she does not want to do it. She ... that's not Nancy's .. .
I was glad, because that's not Nancy's strong point. Nancy
is a wonderful, wonderful worker. And she does tremendous
work for the Institute, but she would be unhappy in that
job. And I was glad that she decided not to do it. But
this is unfair .. .
M: Uh huh.
T: ... for her, to have to try to do what I was doing which
was full-tilt, straight-ahead . ..
M: Sure.
T: ... a ll the time, busy ...
M: And creative ...
T: ... and do her own things, which was shoring up, and,
you know, helping me with my stuff, plus some projects of
her own . I t's just been ... what has ... it is a gradual
deterioration of programs , is what is going to happen. And
no initiation of new programs , which also will tell on the
TRUAX 83
T: Institute .
M: That's bad. That's a bad ...
T: Yeah.
M: I just ... I can't get over the Teach the Teachers
failing this year. It just breaks my heart ... Now,
somebody told me that the teachers paid $100.00 Did they?
M: I didn't know they paid anything.
T: Yeah. They paid $100.00.
M: Well, then, it said you had to have $400.00 for each
one of them?
T: Yeah. And from the beginning, I had told them that
there ... that would not work. I knew the teachers would not
do that. And John, because he trusted me , knew that I was
probably telling the truth, you know. So, he always said,
IIOK, we'll just have to find the money somewhere." Because,
to him, it had to go. That was John's feeling - we have to
do this. And he would find the money, so, then they
decided, well, that ... to try - the $400.00. They only got
one application.
M: Dang.
T: So, teachers just cannot afford that. They just . .. it's
two weeks away from home, to begin with. Some of them are
having to pay baby sitters and everything else, you know.
M: Yeah.
T: Their husbands are not too happy, if they're married,
and on top of that, we're going to say $400.00, when we're a
TRUAX 84
T: state tax-supported institution? They're not going to
do it. It ... it's too bad, but all things come to an end, so
it will be reincarnated in some new form. Education has
changed so much, Esther, in the last few years, that I was
getting very worried. We were having year-round schools,
we're having all kinds of different starting and ending
times, and it was getting very difficult to find a time when
you could have four weeks of ... in June, before July 4th. At
the Institute we can't do it after that, because of Folklife
Festival.
M: That's right.
T: So, we were having a lot of problems, and Nancy and I
had talked about it, and we had said, "Well, maybe we have
4th grade in June and 7th grade ... " Well, you know. Then
we started talking about all different things, and I think
probably we were on the verge of trying to think up
something new. And, that's what will probably happen.
M: Was there any idea, any way of moving it out to either
university?
T: I don't think there was any interest in that.
M: Wasn't there?
T: I don't think so.
M: I just feel so keenly about the loss of that. I think
it's terrible. One of the things I wanted to ask you ... I'd
better not quote who ... but somebody, one of the executives,
said the training could be better.
TRUAX
T: The docent training?
M: uh huh. I have always vowed I was going to take that
training, and I never had the time.
85
T: I imagine, like anything else, that the training could
be better.
M: I was kinda surprised. I wish I could tell you who
said it, because you'd have more ... you'd be more impressed
with it, but I was surprised, because I thought that
training was super duper.
T: The docents feel that it certainly is more than
adequate, and obviously, the teachers are happy with what
they get. I don't know if that person was talking about
the ... the historical background ...
M: He just said the training. That's all he said - the
training could be better.
T: Uh huh. Probably that person, if they were from
Research was talking about the historical background. And
that's always something that ... that Sally struggles with, is
getting the right people who will allow us to give the kinds
of tours that we are going to give. Probably some of what
is said, and has been said in the past, and some that I've
discussed with ... with Research people, is that once again
they do not really agree with the way we do our tours, or
with ... They would like the expository - lecture to them
till they drop .. .
M: Yeah.
TRUAX 86
T: .. . which we , I hope, never do here at the Institute, ...
M: That's right. It's boring.
T: ... because the strength of the Institute is ... is the
kind of tours we give. So, we may be dealing, here, with
just that ... that argument between two different schools of
thought. The other thing might be , if the person has a
certain interest in a certain segment of history or, in our
case, a certain ethnic group, maybe they felt that person
was being . .. that ethnic group ... was being not given enough
time. And that, too, is a problem, when you have only so
much time ...
M: Yeah.
T: ... you have to .. . And our method is so important to us
that we integrate the . .. the facts into the method. And
that's something that's very difficult, also, for people who
deal with the written word, to understand. So, that's
possible. I think the training is excellent. Like anything
else, it probably, you know, needs improving now and then,
but I don't think that there's any problem with it. I don't
think there's a problem with it.
M: Any ... anybody that you talk to will agree that this is
the best program in town.
T: Oh, yes. And the ... the simple fact that we have 400
docents and the fact that they man that exhibit floor ...
Right now, Ed Programs has been down two people on the
exhibit floor, and I imagine it's gone along just fine in
TRUAX 87
T: the spring. They haven't had any trouble, because the
docents take up the slack .
M: Yeah.
T: One of the things that I worked hard at, on the exhibit
floor, was getting docents into those interpretive areas, so
that we could have them manned more of the time. That
worried me a lot - when we were not having people there,
when staff would be out, or when, you know ... I felt ... I
feel strongly the people on the exhibit floor are very
important. I think the training is very good. I think the
training manual leaves a lot to be desired.
M: Oh?
T: That's ... that's my feeling. I might go along with that
- that the training manual, the history part of it, is not
strong.
M: This was not a research person that said that.
T: Isn' t that interesting?
M: Uh huh.
T: Well, everybody has a right to .. . to their . ..
What ... what .. . they didn't elucidate at all?
M: No. They just said, " ... which could be better", just
in a conversation, just in passing. " The training - the
docent training - which could be better ... ", that was all
that was said then. I didn't stop him; I didn't say a
thing. Just let it go on.
T: Yeah, yeah.
TRUAX
M: But I was curious, and I've always wanted to take the
course, but ...
88
T: Well, you ought to try it, but I know it takes time.
M: Matter of time. I'm gonna do it, but I'm slowing down
now.
T: I think that with the docent training - the docent
manual - not the part in the back which talks how to do it,
but the historical end ... and Jim would agree with me
completely on this ... The historical information in the
beginning, that is not .. .
M: Needs ... needs improvement.
T: Yeah . It's never been really, really good.
M: Was Sally in on that?
T: Yeah. And she's been working at it, but she doesn't
have time and there's no one in research who has time, and,
you know, who's gonna write it? Who's gonna really do it?
M: Well, why couldn't Jim do that? He hasn't got much to
do right now.
T: I don't know. Maybe he doesn't want to.
M: Maybe . I wonder if he writes well or not.
T: Oh, Jim's a wonderful writer. You mean Jim McNutt?
M: Yeah.
T: One of his strong suits is writing.
M: Oh, really?
T: Oh, he wrote Plan ... what do they call that? .. 1 ... 1
was jus t thrilled with that. He is a marvelous writer.
TRUAX 89
M: I didn't realize that.
T: He writes ... I don't know how he writes, as far as
professional stuff ... that I really don't know. But I would
presume that he would be able to do that. But this was
something where you talk about the Institute and its
projects, and ... and the goals of the Institute - the seven
year plan - whatever that thing is called. And I was
thrilled, because I was worried about it, and ...
M: Really? Good.
T: ... because, you know, as you know, he had and I had
different ideas about where t he Institute goes, and I was
surprised that he was able to ... to write a document that
would please me. I really was. He did a marvelous job.
M: He ... he's getting better all the time, that kid. But
I'm sorry he feels the way he does.
Bonnie, I just am so grateful to you for doing this.
It's been wonderful.
T: Well, it's been ... Listen, I love to talk, you know.
M: This is what ... this is what we need, and ... and you ... I
knew you had ... My lord, how much you accomplished. Don't
you feel good in your soul ?
T: Yes. Yes, I do. I do feel good.
M: You really should.
T: I do feel good. And, you know, I meet people -
teachers - and they say they miss me. Teachers!
M: Yeah.
TRUAX 90
T: And I think, you know, I didn't know until I won that
TSHA award for excellence in education ...
M: Urn hum .
T : I really did not know that I had as much impact in the
State of Texas as I had had.
M: Of course, you were so busy, you didn't have time to
sit down and think, did you?
T: And I'm not ... I'm not that kind of an egotist. I have
a good, strong, healthy ego, and I worked hard, and I'll
fight like a cat for what I'm after. But it's not personal,
so much, as it is the project , you know.
M: Uh huh.
T: I mean, I just really feel strongly about what I'm
doing and so it was fun. It was interesting.
M: I hope this woman that they've hired is gonna be good.
T: She'll be an entirely different type of person, I would
think. And another thing that I talked to John about one
time - and he might not even remember it - was that I was a
woman who came along ... a person, not a woman ... a person who
came along right at the time that that person was needed.
M: Absolutely.
T: And I ran with it. And I was allowed to run with it ...
M: Yeah.
T: ... which is most unusual. It wouldn't happen now.
M: Wouldn't it?
T: Huh uh. Everything's done by committees, see. Esther,
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T: I went down to my desk and did it! I didn't talk to
anybody. I just did it.
M: And it got done.
T: We'd have a staff meeting, and I would say, "Well, I'm
working on this, and I'm working on that", and John would
vaguely remember that we had talked about it.
M: Patrick, of course, was a ... he was good to work with,
and he was full of ideas, too, wasn't he?
T: Yes.
M: Everybody I've interviewed lately has spoken so highly
of him.
T: Patrick was ... Patrick was very happy up in research.
He was not so happy when he was trying to manage people.
That was not his strongest suit.
M: John said that he didn't have that quality.
T: Yeah. He ... it was very frustrating to him that he
didn't have it.
M: Uh huh.
T: And he was much happier when he ... During the time
that I worked under Patrick, he spent a lot of time on his
last book. And I, basically, was just so ............ , and I
was just doing ... Sometimes he would come into my office,
he'd say, "What's this I hear?" And I'd say, "Well, I told
you about that." And I wrote him a weekly report - every
week.
M: Oh, did you really?
TRUAX
T: Oh, yes. I always did.
92
Well, he was my boss. I felt
strongly ... I did with John, too; I felt strongly. John
knew that he could depend on me to tell him what I was doing
and to tell him if I thought there were going to be any
problems ...
END OF TAPE II, Side 2, 45 Minutes