THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
INTERVIEW WITH: Lisa Goodman, with her mother Lois Goodman
DATE: July 7, l99l
PLACE: Houston, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Heather Bohannon
HB: You told me before what your ethnic background is. What is this?
LG: I don't know what - it's French, German, or whatever.
Whatever it is now it's the region in between France and Germany, the Alsace region and on both sides. And it alternates. It's French-German.
HB: Your family has always been Catholic, is that right?
LG: Well, we're not really sure of that.
Lois G: I think some family on my grandfather on my mother's side, there might have been some little French.
LG: We're not really sure about Dad's side either because...
Lois G: Yeah, always Catholic.
LG: Well, we didn't know up until....
Lois G: ?
LG: No, no. (laughter). Okay let's just say for as long we - we talked about this before, but as long as we know that.HB: Your family has been in the United States for a long
time. And in the Houston area?
LG: No. Lisa's Dad was a ? His parents were from Wisconsin. His mother was from Michigan, his father was from Detroit, I mean, I'm sorry, from Wisconsin.
My family - my part of the family is from Pennsylvania.
And all of the Mueller part of the family is from Pennsylvania.
HB: And your whole family lived here?
LG: My mother and dad and my two brothers and I moved to Shreveport and then came here in l950. And I married here in and lived here until '57.
Lois G: No, Jim was born here.
LG: '58.
Lois G: Okay. '59 because you were pregnant with Beth.
LG: Yeah, I got pregnant with Beth after and after we moved to ?
(Conversation among themselves trying to agree on the above date. Because of overlapping conversations, it was hard to decipher conversation).
HB: What parish were you in at that time? At what church did you belong to?
LG: When we moved back to Houston in l970 from ? we were in St. Christopher's.
HB: I don't know that area, around Memorial Park?
LG: Over across from Memorial Park.
HB: The one's that's heavily Hispanic?LG: Now. It's very heavily Hispanic.
HB: I'm not familiar with that.
LG: The Memorial area?
HB: No, no, Memorial Park, in the Washington area.
LG: So, again it's just like St. Andrew's, a very strange combination of - very, some wealthy people, some recent immigrants, also a lot of Italian - it's a heavily ethnic parish, very mixed ethnic parish.
HB: Was that the one that was closest to where you were living?
LG: Yeah.
HB: So it wasn't so much a matter of choosing a parish as...
Lois G: No, not so much anymore. But that's usually - you pretty much went to your parish church. I mean, parishes were laid out according to areas and you pretty much were encouraged to go to your parish church.
LG: Also we liked the priest there, too.
Lois G: Technically, I think we belonged to.....
LG: Yeah, I don't think we really did belong to that church but we........
HB: Is there also a pretty mixed ....?
LG: No. It's a "Whitey" church.
HB: It's more Anglo?
LG: Yeah, White.
I think we started to going to St. Theresa's more because we really liked Father - we liked McCarthy and...
Lois G: Yeah, he was very good.LG: And we also got real involved - like we were in the youth group there.
Bear and we really - all of us girls really liked it because comparatively speaking, they were pretty liberal. It was a very liberal church.
?
LG: You know I told you like we had ? in our church, in the courtyard and one of, I think it was McCarthy - he was more moderate. But Father Dennis Letch, he was really.....
HB: Was this at St. Cecilia's church?
LG: Right. No, we never went to St. Cecilia's. At St. Theresa's. I think he was fairly liberal, and very political. He had been a Vietnam War protester and all that.
Lois G: And strangely enough, at that time, two of the assistant priests were, who are now the Archbishop -Archibishop Dranza and McCarthy, I think is kind of interesting...
LG: Oh, that's right.
Lois G: And McCarthy, who I think is kind of interesting.
HB: From that church?
LG: From that church, yeah. And Father heorenza who is Archibishop now and was also very involved in the Civil Rights Movement in the 60's, very much so and still is. And there was a really neat, young Cuban-American, first generation Cuban, who as you said, we liked, that was real young and....
HB: He was more politically aware, then a lot of people just because of their church involvement. I know I didn't know about those things going on.
LG: We also had one of the original
Lois G: Yeah, from out of that parish which was real controversial.
HB: A ?
LG: It started in - I was in high school. So it started happening in '73 or - yeah, it was one of the first ones. Also we had a very - they had one of the first social service offices of any church that I know of. They had a very strong ministry to poor people there, very strong.
HB: So those are the things that you liked about that church, too? I'm always amazed at the community bond in the Catholic Church.
LG: That varies a lot from parish to parish, church to church, too, depending on who the pastor is. The church that I go to now is very "upper" -St. Michael's on Sage Road is a real - pretty conservative parish. I like St. Anne's which is where - this is really the church that the girls prefer to go to which is very mixed again. A lot like St. Theresa's old church.
Lois G: I'd say it's twenty-five percent gay probably - a big gay population. They say ...
like two partners going to church together, lots of Salvadorans, Guadamalans and a lot - yeah, a big ethnic
- but then like really old ? people.
(Too much inter-action to distinguish what is being said)
HB: Where you've been, you know...... what do you feel about some of those other factions?
LB: It's a very active - I mean I've never noticed, in fact, one year I think it was the Easter Service, you know which the eastern always has them. I just happened to notice this really, kind of, you know, rich woman with really like real long fingernails and lots of jewelry - very ostentatious and that sort of thing. And this man came in and sat very close to her with this hat and he was obviously a street person, he was filthy - very filthy. And, you know, really quite you know not all there mentally but it was so interesting because she didn't even flinch, she didn't move. In the beginning of the service the priest always, you know, tell the people to introduce themselves to each other and to welcome each other and she hugged him, you know, and yeah, it was very nice. So I've never gotten the feeling .....especially with, you know, like threatening gay people.
HB: Did you go to a Catholic school when you were growing up?
LG: Twelve years.
HB: Did you get most of your religious training in school
or did you also get that at home.
LG: Very strong Catholic upbringing at home. Very strong. I mean, we never - unless you were very ill, there was no excuse not to go to mass on Sunday. We just did.
HB: Did you talk about that stuff at home too?
LG: We never talked about it but it was just -I mean, it was something you grow up with.
HB: I'm thinking about my mother who read to us from this book called "Little Visits From God" at night. In it where it talks to us about Bible stuff and told us this and that. I was wondering if you got any of that....
LG: I grew up in a family - my grandmother on my Dad's side got up every morning of her entire life and went to Mass at six o'clock. She was off to church, it didn't make any difference what the weather was, I mean that was back when she was without a car. She would - her mother, goes back to her parents started over from Europe and her father, my grandmother's father died at sea and he was buried at sea and she came over here with 8 children.....
HB: After he died?
LG: Came on to America and raised 8 children, one of them died very early, but raised those seven children by herself.
HB: ?
LG: I don't know.
HB: It couldn't have been very easy.
LG: She remarried and her husband had a liquor store and that's how she supported those children.
(Unable to hear tape because of noise)LG: I know it was very difficult.
HB: But wasn't she the one that you all were kinda scared of?
LG: Uh-hum. And put one of those - put her son in - through seminary and my Dad dropped out of college after the second year because someone had to go out and work to help support the family so that the eldest son could stay in seminary.
HB: And that was the big deal.
LG: That was a real big deal.
HB: More exciting than if he'd been studying for anything else.
LG: Absolutely. In fact, he just died about six months ago.
Lois G: Wasn't he like 90 years old?
LG: Very old.
Lois G: He was very elderly.
HB: Do you remember that - they were taking any kind of space at home? An altar space?
LG: Oh, my grandmother, yeah.
HB: Or religious objects, or pictures?
LG: Very - yeah. I think she had a real strong ministry to Sacred Heart and I can remember. I mean, lots of crosses, lots of pictures, lots of statures in her home.
HB: At your house, or in a special place?
LG: All through the house. I mean, she was very, very religious. I don't ever remember hearing her talk about it,but the very fact that....
HB: I guess if you see those things all the time, you don't have to talk about it.
LG: Yes, by her actions.
HB: You're going to have to explain to me because I'm ignorant about what you're talking about when you're talking about the ministry of the Sacred Heart.
LG: It's just - that's what's called the Sacred Heart of Jesus and .....
HB: To me it's an image.
LG: Yeah.
LG: It's depicted, you know, usually with a heart, the crown of thorns, piercing and those things, and it's just like any one of the specific objects or holy figures that people worship. It's just like a part of -instead of specifically worshipping or praying to, like to the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit, but it's - or the Mother of Jesus, or the Virgin Mary -someone with specifically, you know, pray about or pray to the Sacred Heart and it's just that....
Lois G: It's more iconography.
LG: Yeah, it's more - it's hard to - I wouldn't even separate it from just praying to Jesus, but it's kinda like the whole iconography of the Sacred Heart and the sacrifice...
HB: That you can identify with?
LG: Yeah. HB: Did she have like a statue, or....
Lois G: She had a statue in her bedroom, I do remember that.
HB: On her dresser top?
LG: Now my mother's strong ministry is the Blessed Virgin - the rosary. My Mother says the rosary every day of her life. I mean that's her security. And she always had statues of the Blessed Virgin.
I remember, she had those carved - what was it? Not soapstone, but something like that was carved - one of the head. I remember....
Lois G: She likes to think that it was really like, if you were handsome ? and that's the think, "Oh look at those couple"!
Lois G: She still has those in the back bedroom.
LG: Yes, it's always in the same place. And I've seen her put flowers on that, too. But it's just like busts, and they're really beautiful.
Lois G: ? for wedding gifts.
LG: Oh, she really loves those. And then she would put, like, roses from her garden, like in a vase on there. But she always had that always in the same space, and then...
HB: Was this on a tabletop or....
LG: It's on top of the dresser. Actually a chest of drawers. And then I remember her having that white statue of the Virgin.
Lois G: That's a Hummel. Statue of the Blessed Virgin. Shehas that now in the den under a glass.
LG: Oh, yes, that's right.
HB: I remember seeing that.
LG: But, also, I remember her doing things. And I think this is kind of interesting, too. And she really did this. After Grandpa died she made a shrine to him. I mean, she would have ....
HB: A memorial?
LG: Oh, she always - she would have, like, all these things that were his and very specifically on that dresser and she would never, like, move his comb and brush, you remember? Like stuff with his hair in it? And all of his, like, personal, you know, like - not toiletries, but maybe kind of
? or something. His jewelry, all on top of this dresser and I thought she had a Virgin Mary statue up there, also.
Lois G: I think she does have.
LG: A religious statue.
HB: Was this a place where she would never put anything else there?
LG: Uh-uh.
Lois G: It was on top of his chest.
LG: Yeah. No, she would never move it.
HB: It' interesting because I've talked to an awful lot of people who set up a space like that for the first time as a memorial.
LG: Yeah. Because it's something, stuff that wasn't necessarily there, but after he died, 'cause it was stuff he'd keep in the bathroom.
Lois G: And they've always been there. He's been dead 20 years.
HB: So she still has these things...
LG: It speaks - you know, it's the idea behind that to ask for protection for that person, or pray for that person.
Lois G: Not necessarily, I think it makes her feel closer to to him. It keeps her feeling closer to him.
I think she still has - in fact, I know she still has his handkerchiefs, his linen handkerchiefs in the same drawer where he kept them in.
And I think maybe it's an unconscious thing that...
HB: ? if that's his spiritual space, or somebody in the spiritual world but that would be the place you'd put their things.
LG: And I know she still talks to him because we had a talk about that before. So I think she's really, you know, it's practical 'cause Grandma's very practical, but she is comfortable talking about - about really kind of abstract things, because it surprises me. And she's very practical because she's worked hard since she was very young and had a hard life. But she'll talk about very abstract things, like talking to Grandpa even though he's dead. And she really believes that. And we talk - when Will, when her friend died, we talked about that.
She told me that wonderful story about - that Lola had that dream about her husband Ted. She told you that.
Lois G: Uh-huh.
LG: Right before she died and that she, you know, Grandma thought that that made sense because he was coming to get her, to welcome her. But, you know, someone's that ?
story, you'd think - but she doesn't think that's weird at all.
HB: That's what strikes me about a lot of people, especially Catholics, that actually it is practical because how they see it, it's kind of everyday life, so it's not so very abstract when you keep a space, where you say the rosary every single day but then it becomes a practical part of your life.
Lois G: Well, it's been - it's things that she did during her entire life that's become a part of her life. She says that rosary every day and her prayers, she'll say, "I couldn't sleep, so I got up and said my prayers", I mean, that's just part of her life.
HB: Does she keep a rosary on this table where she....
LG: She keeps her rosary wherever she is. If she's in the den, she keeps the rosary beside her. On the table beside her.
Lois G: I didn't know that. She does?
LG: Oh, yeah. And then when she goes to bed at night, her rosary is on her nightstand. It's just like a part of her.
LG: I didn't know that. She keeps it in that little bag or something?Lois G: She has a sterling silver rosary and she just keeps it beside her wherever she is.
HB: But she doesn't go off someplace private to do the rosary?
LG: Yes, well she never would do it in front of us.
HB: But somehow you know she did it every day.
Lois G: Oh, I know. I know she does. Yeah. I mean, she'll say, "Well, I couldn't sleep last night so I got up and said my prayers".
LG: But she is private about - I mean I've never seen her do the rosary. Well, when I've spent the night with her before, she - I've never seen her do it. How do you know?
Lois G: Say the rosary? She usually does it privately, yeah.
LG: I've never seen her do it.
HB: Do you think she does the rosary, or says her prayers at that space, or different space where she's got some of the objects, or is that kind of independent?
LG: I think she associates saying her prayers, why, I was going to say before she goes to bed at night but
that's not true either because she'll say, "Oh, I was going to lay down and take a nap, but I decided I'd say my prayers first". So there are a set of prayers that she says every day. I mean, ...
HB: They are ritualized prayers.
LG: Yeah. Exactly, independent of her rosary. But that's also something she does every day.HB: That's just so interesting to me because we really had only - a Sunday only kind of religion. But, I think most Protestants tend to have ...... Would you explain about the fasting stuff.
LG: Oh, they really did. As we were growing up during Lent, oh yeah. It was done.
HB: Even about the Holy Communion thing, too. Because we really did not do that.
LG: As we were growing up, in order to receive Holy Communion on Sunday morning, and that was before you could go to Mass on Saturday evening and you had the Masses on Sunday morning. Not Sunday evening - Sunday morning. You had to fast from everything - food, drinking - including water from midnight. And if you went to Mass at 8:00 in the morning, then you fasted until after 8:00. If you went to Mass at ll:00, that meant you did not have a sip of water - and I mean, we would never - we wouldn't even dream about taking a drink of water and then going to Holy Communion.
HB: And just like you were telling when you were on dates and stuff, you had the...
LG: When Bob and I were dating, I mean - and I was in my twenties, if we went dancing or something or if we went to a party, and you wanted to have something to eat, you had to go and eat before midnight. And I mean, we really would not have dreamed of eating after midnight and then going to communion the next morning. That was almost a strict rule to follow but we wouldn't .....HB: And then you fasted also from - tell about the Lenten fast.
LG: Well, during Lent - theoretically, they said that the rule was that you had 2 small meals and then one full meal, but there was no eating between meals and no eating.....
HB: Each day during Lent?
LG: Every day during Lent. And that was a strict fast and we did that.
Lois G: The rules are much more lax now.
HB: You see we didn't eat meat on Friday.
LG: Friday you couldn't meat - any Friday, ever.
HB: Yeah. When we were kids. Never.
LG: I remember people doing that.
Lois G: And when they released us from that rule, my Mother to this day - maybe not strictly, but I mean many, many Fridays she just will not eat meat just as a kind of little sacrifice.
LG: But now they have this thing where they ask you to have one meatless day and give the money to the food bank.
LG: Charity.
Lois G: Yeah. They ask you to have at least one meatless day a week.
HB: Does these things that - now the fasting, that was dictated by the church, or was it more something you knew from home?
LG: No, that was the church law and you followed it.
HB: Including you not eating after midnight which...Lois G: But you learned it from....
LG: Oh, sure, we grew up with that, yeah.
Lois G: It was just something always knowing.
HB: Just like I always remember - I thought no one had meat on Friday. I remember I hated it.
LG: Yeah. That was also like Mom's cleaning day. You couldn't touch anything. Like you hated coming home from school 'cause she'd been cleaning all day, so yo knew, like, you couldn't touch anything in the house.
Lois G: And she had something....
LG: No, unless she had something like, what I really didn't like that much. But Mom was never in a great mood, you know, if you'd been scrubbing the floors all day you'd be...
HB: My students who were fasting for ? were quite shocked to how widespread the students who do Lent - treated it because they gave up things that they didn't want to give up, like they did they didn't care about anyhow and they probably made ...
LG: We used to give up really hard things.
Lois G: Lisa always gives up really hard things.
Yeah. We always did.Tell
HB: Well, then, tell about the Mary altar.
Lois G: Well, May was devoted to the Blessed Virgin. And when we were in school, in elementary school, every classroom had a May altar. And when we were in school, with the nuns, I think it used to be a competition with the nuns. They would see who could make the most elaborate May altars.Some of them were beautiful! I mean, they would buy satin fabric and I'm talking elaborate, beautiful May altars. I don't know that - were they still doing that when you were in school?
LG: We mostly did flowers and we did fabric. We would make things. No it wasn't a big - it wasn't big showy thing.
Lois G: But when we were children, the entire month of May - and in those days most everyone lived within walking distance of school. We would walk home. And we lived in Detroit and flowers in the spring were absolutely beautiful - lilacs - white lilacs, purple lilacs - I mean, spirea, lily-of-the valley, I mean everything - tulips, everything grew wild in the yards and we would come back at noontime just come just ladened down with all these georgeous flowers. Some of these altars were absolutely beautiful.
And then, of course, always every church would have a beautiful May altar. The whole month of May and then the last...
HB: So this had to be replenished ....
LG: And then every child in school would try to outdo the others, to see who could bring the most beautiful flowers.
HB: I bet that was pretty.
LG: It was wonderful.
HB: Did you do that at home? Did you do any special?...
LG: Yeah, everone had May altars at home.
HB: So, in the same space where the holy figures are, the rest of the time you would put flowers?
Lois G: Um-hum. The Blessed Virgin....
LG: We used to put your big white Blessed Virgin....
Lois G: We used to create a little altar.
LG: We'd take up your lace, things and put that on there. You could put vases of flowers. And then we made them at school.
And then also, because you all did this, too, you would get picked. Somebody would get picked who was always a girl - gets a crown. The Blessed Virgin. That's a big deal.
And we would make them a crown, you know, out of flowers, and stuff and we'd sing the same song.
HB: Do they still do that?
LG: I'm sure they still do.
HB: Oh, that sounds wonderful.
Lois G: It was a lovely practice because it was spring and the flowers were all beautiful and it was just a...
LG: And we also had, you know, we had church devotionals to Mary.
Lois G: Well, I asked my friend Francie about it. But Francie - she lives out by the Hobby Airport and was also raised Catholic and she immediately started up singing songs to me. One girl to crown the Blessed Virgin. It was a wonderful experience.
LG: It was a big deal.
Lois G: Because everyone wore their most beautiful dress and we had processions and there was always one in the church.
Lois G: Yeah. Yeah.
Lois G: And whoever got the Crown for the Blessed Virgin to the Church was a big deal.
HB: So this was a big public...
LG: Oh, yeah.
Lois G: And then we had a big mass and they'd sing all the Mary songs - a big, long, you know, a processional. Each class would make something and carry it in and put it on the altar. And by that time, I mean, the altar would be huge because there was a big, huge stature of Mary. That church was Mary, our Queen. So that was all devoted to Mary.
There was this huge Mary altar and stature up front. It was a beautiful, beautiful stature of Mary.
But, then you know, by the time each class would come up and bring their stuff - I mean it was like tons of stuff - it was beautiful. And flowers - and sometimes we did things for - I remember we bought stuff for poor people sometimes, like.....
HB: Since you grew up with that kind of stuff did you, then, when you got married clear a space in your house.....?
Lois G: Um-huh. There's some at my house.
HB: And did you have one the rest of the year, or just....
LG: Usually just in May. Because that's the month that the church devotes to. Special devotion to the Blessed Virgin.
But I grew up with those special devotions to the Blessed Virgin. I guess because my Mother.....
HB: You carry that through, too, don't you?
LG: Well, I have an altar, but I was just telling Mom tonight about what my - I think my altar is a little bit different, too, because I, you know, put a lot - I put objects or things that remind me of people. You know, like Dad.
HB: I'm thinking about other things you have through your house. Because you have a lot of Mary stuff in various places like by your bed, and in your bathroom and in other places, and in little things, but not so much your big public altar.
LG: Yeah, I do, that's right.
HB: Kathy has some, too, doesn't she?
Lois G: Yeah. Kathy does have some stuff, too. Because she's got, I guess her whole apartment is sort of a memorabilia.
HB: Memorabilia to everybody that she's ever crossed paths with. It was really astounding. I'd love to talk to her about stuff she's got in there. Do you people carry through from family traditions and what they're doing?
Lois G: A lot, yeah.
My devotion to the Blessed Mother are definitely a carry-over from my Mother. It was interceeding - Mary's intercession, you know, to God. My Mother always felt very strongly that. If you really needed something to pray to the Blessed Virgin, she would intercede for you.LG: The woman's touch.
Lois G: Yeah, and also when a Mother and....
HB: It's very odd because there are very beautiful prayers to her and ...
Lois G: And also I think also that that is the thing that people have the hardest time with But I've had more people ask me that ....They don't understand the concept of the Blessed Virgin at all.
And I don't understand what is so weird about it. You know, the whole Immaculate Conception thing. I don't think it's that odd. Then maybe it's just because, you know, it's just from the very first you kind of accept it.
I remember when I was little. Of course, before you even have any kind of sexual understanding at all, you know, you don't really question that part. But when you get older you start thinking, "Now, how could that happen again?" (laughter). I don't know, but then the older you get, the more that you understand, you know, abstract - become a theory - I don't think it's weird at all now. Because it's just a different sort of power.
HB: I think that your life , and that's the thing people have the most trouble with that they....
Lois G: Oh, it is! Yeah, God just came down here - but it's just like anything else that God's love or any kind of any abstraction, you can't explain it away. And I guess, really too, it's faith rather more anything else. If you believe that, you know, that it really was possible. But I think that's where a lot of people have a lot of problems with,
with the Catholic Church and then people will get into talking about idolatry and worshipping things and...
HB: Yes, because we were just fed all that stuff. When we were little, too. So much of that you just accept.
Second.
Lois G: I don't go to church a lot. I go whenever I need to, I'm not really........
HB: It took me a long time to realize that you really were
religious and wanted to work that ? because I haven't had that sort of focus in my own life,
Lois G: I think it's a comination, too, because I would say that my spirituality is really important to me and I don't really ever think of myself as being religious but I guess in a way I am. I mean I really do believe, I have any problems with the Catholic Church but it's mostly hierachery and a lot of stuff but, I mean, I feel very torn about what I believe and the good things that I've got from - the social conscience that I've got from there as opposed to the stupid rules that I see, so I have a real hard time sometimes.
At least I think, you know, I will get up and leave if there's a sermon about abortion, as a lot of other women - a lot of other people do. So.. Yeah, I've left before and if it ever happens again, my.....That Church, St. Ann's does really not do that. The other thing they do..
HB: ? angry a few times.Lois G: It's only a couple times a year. And I don't know if they do this on purpose, but when they're going to talk about it they always put it in the bulletin. And I'm sure it's because, you know, they have now - there's probably half of their, they call them ucharist ministers , are people that lay people give communion now and they're Catholic and half of them are women. There's a lot of women involved in the service and, I mean, I've sat through it before and just been livid, just furious. And have seen people leave and then just finally stop coming.
And also there's a lot of people that get very angry and I know where their anger at the Catholic Church comes in because I think that it's because they don't separate politics from religion, and they don't.
HB: And so that's what you're able to do in order to..
Lois G: What I do, I think, is that my beliefs coincide with their beliefs 90% of the time. That's the big issue for me is the whole issue of reproductive life. And that - and a lot of people are like that. I really think -and Mother doesn't agree - but I think that the Church will eventually split up.
HB: But basically the church is....
Lois G: The American Catholic Church is very different. And pretty much, unless you do something totally outrageous, which I can't imagine what it would be, each church is run the way they want to, pretty much. So it is widely - they're very different. Very different, and you can go to -Annunciation downtown still has Latin Mass, there's Spanish Mass....
LG: They seem to advertise the Latin Mass in the phone book.
Lois G: You see, that's ? as to do that.
HB: How much do you think that the ethnic diversity, or ethnic makeup of a particular parish dictates.
Lois G: A lot.
HB: The differences.
Lois G: Because, for instance St. Theresa's is one of the most diverse. There's a lot of people that you think of as being, oh, it's a real blue collar kind of church mostly. And it's got a very large ethnic diversity with Italians, Czechs, Polish people - lots of different.... And they tend to be members of labor unions, you know, blue collar workers, that dictates a lot. Oh you know I could go around a lot of Catholic Churches in this Town and tell you like which is Republican, which is Democrat. Yeah, even that part. So it's very different. And it does to a certain extent baecause also they tend to incorporate - like a Holy Rosary, has a Vietnamese priest, a Vietnemese...
HB: There's a whole coalition of Vietnamese churches, about 6 I believe. I was reading about the ethnic groups in Houston the other night and it talks about the Vietnames Catholic Churches....
Lois G: And they tend to be very conservative. Just like the Hispanic Churches are more conservative. HB: I want to ask you - first of all if there's anything on ? in what your Mother said you wanted to comment on. Or that you remember it differently than what she was saying?
Lois G: Um-hum.
HB: Or don't remember that she talked about.
Lois G: Well, for one thing, I think probably the only thing - just like her, I don't remember of her really talking to us about religion but it was just part of her life. And...
HB: But she didn't -your Mother didn't keep an altar space.
Lois G: She did. She always kept a Mary. She always had a little table where she had her stature. She's had this white stature of the Blessed Virgin as long as I can remember.
HB: How big is it? Do you know where she got it?
Lois G: She got it when she got married.
HB: As a wedding gift?
Lois G: Um-huh.
HB: From family member?
Lois G: Maybe from her parents because this is exactly like..
HB: I thought it was interesting because she was saying that she thought that your Grandmother's figures were a wedding present, too, and it would have to have been from a family member, too, don't you think?
Lois G: Yeah. Probably. She didn't really talk anything about her - my Grandmother's side of the family, but I kind of thought she was talking about her grandmother because, I mean, her mother's mother because I remember of her being very religious, too, but also and to my Grandfather's mother was like - I was very surprised she talked of her because she was like, a really scary figure in my Mother's life. We were terrified of her. She was real tall and real stark, very stark.
HB: It's interesting that she thinks of her when she thinks about religion because she must be associating it to...
Lois G: And, well, I think also because my Grandfather's side of the family, they're like this big clan. They were really never had - so many - they have this huge family, you know, they had 8 children and they all have lots of children and they all kind of lived around each other. She's, the mother is like this real strong figure. My Grandmother you can say ?
and she was real mean to her. Forever, until she died. She never was nice to her.
HB: You think she relates sterness with religion.
Lois G: Well, I don't know. But she had 6 sons. She had a hard life, too. And she had 6 sons and she was this matriarch with all these sons. And very - she never really liked to meet her daughter-in-laws and she wasn't that nice to them. And my Mother always was scared of her. Whereas her other Grandmother, her Mother's Mother was also very religious but she was just -like very outgoing, she was a maid. She was always real cooperative. My great Grandfather was a major drunk, and she always - my Grandmother's mother. She died when I was about 5. She had real long waist length hair. She wore braids wrapped around her head. She was real, like real outgoing and sweet and very generous even though she was really poor her whole life. She worked as a maid for a man who was a jeweler. I mean, she never really had anything, but she had - he gave her a rings pieces of jewelry which she'd always give away. When my Mother turned l6 she gave her this beautiful ring. And there was this woman that was just so poor. But she always gave away everything she had. She was real, like she made bread and she was real...
HB: Do you think she passed on religious traditions?
Lois G: Um-huh. Oh yeah because she was....I don't really remember her.
HB: What traditions in your family do you think of are traditions that really have more to do with - religious traditions that really have more to do with your family than with what the Church dictated. It sounded like a lot of things that your Mother was saying she thinks of as being dictated by the Church but the adherence to them would be more of a family thing, like the fasting, you probably would have like it but really didn't do that.
Lois G: I think probably that Lent was the big thing because that was always - we talked about that a lot. And I also remember that my Mother would talk to us about doing something positive, but doing something that was more interior than exterior, you know, your kids just always give up candy or something. She would always talk to us about doing something that no one would know about. Because there's a story in the Bible about how hypocritical it was to fast and let everyone know it and she would talk to us about doing things that no one would know about. Private or, you know, things really more working on behavior or doing something...
HB: So that it becomes a bit personal.
Lois G: And also we have this thing that we'd do in school sometimes where the nuns would have us - we always wrote our names on a piece of paper and we'd pick somebody's name and nobody would know - it's a secret. So that would be like a secret pal, all during Lent you would do things for that but they would never know who it was, so she talked to us about that a lot and then, so that was a big thing.
G: One of the - a home altar space is a very personal thing. Because what you put on it is what you decide. Just the whole idea of having - keeping the Sacred Heart or Mary, whatever it is you choose to have, she called it, "The
Relistrey", is that what she called it?
Lois G: Yeah, I remember.....
HB: You said something about home Sunday recently when you were talking about wrapping - was it a crucifix?
Lois G: Uh-huh. I've always done it and my Mother did it, too, when you get, you know Palm Sunday when you get palms you know, to represent...
HB: In church?
Lois G: Uh-huh. They have a huge pile of palms and they're blessed and prayed over and they burn incense around the palms. It's a big ceremony and usually the way they do it is they have like lots and lots of priests, like ten or twelve, priests that dress in like cloaks, or something.
Sometimes they wear burlap, you know, real plain.
LG: And they do a procession that's supposed to be symbolic of Jesus coming into the City. And so, then they do this ceremony where they bless all these palms and then they pass them out in the church and they do various things. But we always wrapped ours around the bottle.
End of Tape l, Side l, 45 minutes.
Continuation of Tape l.
Interview with Lisa and Lois Goodman - July 7, l99l
Interviewer: Heataher Bohannon
Side 2:
B: So that you have to - does that mean you have to strip them?
LG: No. We would get them in strips. In big, long, long strips.
B: So they were already torn into strips?Lois G: Usually they're two parts...
B: I was thinking of the whole family.
LG: No, no, no. They're torn into strips - these long strips. Usually they're like two parts and they're joined at the ends. They're very, very long.
B: So then it was like wrapping a ribbon around?
Lois G: Yeah.
B: Okay. That makes sense.
LG: Then they wrap it and tie it around the bottle.
HB: Did you do this on the home crucifix?
So you had one that was pretty big?
Lois G: Yeah, we had a big one and that again....that was again a wedding gift of ? .
HB: Then where did it hang?
Lois G: That always hung in the hallway. Always in the same place.
HB: So it would be just that - for that one day?
Lois G: No. For the whole - well, until after Easter.
HG: Were there other times that you decorated the crucifix?
One way or another?
Lois G: No. That's the only time.
HG: So the rest of the emphasis was on Mary? At home?
Lois G: Yeah, pretty much. On Jesus.
HB: How did your Dad feel about that stuff, do you remember?
Lois G: I have no idea because he ....
HB: Or your grandfather in your Mother's family?Was this something that was done mostly by the women?
Lois G: Definitely. I've no idea because my Father was, I don't remember much about that at all. He did not go to church...
HB: And that's kind of been the pattern in your family, hasn't it? The women go to church and do all this stuff?
Lois G: My grandfather always went to church but I've no idea what he thought about it.
LG: I'd guess he was religious, in a way.
Lois G: I don't really remember because he also - I was just l3 when he died and I don't have those kind of memories of him.
LG: Your father went to Catholic school, he never went to church. He never went with us.
Lois G: I mean, that if he had been there if he'd have gone with us. He never did go. He always wore a St. Christopher medal.
HB: Which if for protection, right?
Lois G: Yeah, he always wore that, but I don't know what he thought about it, really.
HB: Your Mom brought up the holy cards and prayer book, so I'll have to ask you about that.
Lois G: The holy cards..
HB: Did you get those in school?
Lois G: Um-hum. We always got them in school.
HB: And they have a saint on one side and a prayer on the back?LG: Um-huh. Yes. Saints on them or they have lots of different depictions of Jesus on them. I think that's a Sacred Heart one - lots of different one- all the different Virgins. They had a prayer on the back and also when someone dies, they always have a holy card either like the ? which is to a patron saint and their names after them. Or just anything that's special to them.
And then with the date of their death and special - a special prayer.
HB: And those were passed out?
Lois G: At the funeral.
LG: Usually if someone has a rosary. ?
Lois G: Usually at the rosary. At every funeral I've ever been to, at least Catholic, the rosary is the night before.
Lois G: And then they pass them out then. And it's just - I guess it's just something...
HB: The rosary - is that the all night....?
Lois G: No. The rosary is just... everyone says the rosary together. That's very traditional. Often the night before. Usually a couple of days before the funeral or the night before. Then, I don't - people do this as much, but like when my Mother was little, it was traditional and my Grandmother, they always did this. Somebody had to sit with the body. Just like I told you when my father died my Grandmother was horrified because my Mother went to the funeral home and noone was there with the body, for, you know..HB: ?
Lois G: Or whatever. Well, you know, probably because my Father was still estranged from him family. And by that time his Father died when he was in high school and his Mother had died, and his sister had died. He had one sister who did not come to his funeral.
So, you know....
HB: But that's traditional to stay up with the body?
HB: Were there uses for the holy cards? Did you read them at home, what did you do with them?
Lois G: Read them, and look at them and if you get them like, nuns like to get Holy Cards. You know like on your Patron Saint Day you get a Holy Card with your patron saints name, like this saint is supposed to be watching out for you, or you know, you pray....
HB: But that's only....
Lois G: Oh, I mean, everbody had, yeah everybody had a Saint.
HB: Christmas ?
Lois G: Yeah, but that is the deriviative Elizabeth, so that was...
LG: Or as my Saint.
HB: What did she do?
Lois G: Elizabeth of Hungary, that's my Saint. She was a noble woman who gave up all her possessions to serve the poor. And she's depicted with this purple cloak, she would ride around on this horse. And she gave, like all of her jewels and her possessions so that she could minister to the poor.
HB: She's a good Saint for you.
Lois G: Yeah. So I don't really know...
HB: Where did you keep your Holy Cards?
LG: I think probably she had like an album of - where she put them in.
Lois G: Yeah. Something like a little prayer book. Actually like if you were going to church, that's what I did when I was little....
HB: A story cards?
Lois G: Yeah, it's like stories. And sometimes they would have something about the Saint on the back of them. But they were just devotional.
HB: I just checked out a copy at the lives of the saints this week. It's facinating to look through that.
Each of you have your own prayer book - true? It was a gift?
Lois G: Yeah, you get them when you made your first communion.
HB: How old were you when you made that?
Lois G: Seven or eight. Yeah, about seven.
HB: Yeah, that's a little different, too. We had to go through confirmation before we could take communion when we were l5 or so.
LG: And we got confirmed when we were about l5.
HB: Did you take your prayer book with you when you went tomass? Each time you went to mass?
Lois G: Uh-hum. Yes, my Mother used hers a lot. I don't remember using it that much.
HB: Does she still take her own prayer book?
Lois G: No, she doesn't any more. Also, too, because when we first got ours, that's still when the Mass was in Latin, so probably a lot people took it, you know, because they didn't understand what was going on...
HB: Oh, so it was in addition to Prayer Book?
Lois G: Yeah. And Latin, too, being ? So you could follow in that way....but then when they changed everything, really each church has their own books that are in the church, so you can follow like that.
HB: Some of those Prayer Book are really beautiful, don't they?
Lois G: Yeah. Yeah.
HB: Because we used to sell them at the bookstore - special order them although we'd mostly did Episcopal ones. But they were beautiful.
Lois G: Yeah, and I know they use prayer books a lot.
LG: They're ?Psalms that way.
Lois G: They would just have the mass and the prayers...
HB: You have a crucifix, don't you, that you have hanging...
Lois G: It's in my bathroom.
HB: Is that a gift from someone in your family?
Lois G: A gift from my Mother.HB: But you don't wear that, do you?
Lois G: Oh, you mean a hanging?
HB: Yeah.
Lois G: Oh, no, I've got my crucifix on the wall. Yeah, I wear it sometimes. Yeah. I do. I don't wear it a lot because I don't like to wear things around my neck.
HB: Your Mother was wearing one today. Was that one that she wears all the time?
Lois G: She wears it a lot.
HB: I thought it was interesting that she was handling it the whole time she was talking.
Lois G: Yeah.
HB: I don't know whether it was nerves but it was appropriate.
Lois G: Yeah, she wears it a lot. And then my Grandmother always - she has some with little medals and she always wears them inside of her clothing and she'll wear them.....
LG: I think - I don't wear them mostly because....
HB: I've seen ....of the Virgin.
Lois G: Yes, my Grandmother has those, real tiny ones. She wears those a lot. And a lot of people, a lot of older men - like my Grandfather always wore St. Cristopher medals.
HB: It's interesting that the men, you know, are likely to wear the St. Christopher medals.
Lois G: Yeah. I know...
HB: Do you think that's become a standard?
Lois G: Well, this is kind of - I've thought about that before - I think that started because men travel outside the home the way they did and St. Christopher is a protector when you travel. My Father always had one in his car. Men would also put them on the dashboard and I think's probably like that started.
HB: So people still do that even though St. Christopher is sort of.....
Lois G: Yeah, because really a lot of people don't like that. Oh yeah, I'm sure where in James Avery, that's one of their big sellers. Everybody wears a St. Christopher.
HB: Do you think generally people that have saints figures have been more likely to - you know, like you and your Mother's - we'll say in your family, the Sacred Heart and Mary. I'm wondering if you think it's more outside the mainstream Catholicism that people like where you pray to individual saints, like, you know, the real standard Mexican-American traditions, you know Cuban and some of the others...
Lois G: No, I don't think so. I think it depends on sort of family tradition and...
HB: ?
Lois G: Yes, and I know that's something I got from my Mother and Grandmother because that praying to St. Jude, you lost something or in times of great distress because he is the saint that watches over and helps people in times of real trouble.
HB: How do you know that your Mother did that?Lois G: Because she would tell us. She had something, I guess she had Holy - St. Jude holy card. She would carry with her a lot. And that's just a tradition that people talk about a lot.
HB: So that's one of the uses of the holy cards to carry a particular saint with you if you were petitioning that saint?
Lois G: Um-huh. Like if you would lose something, then my Grandmother would say, "Oh you can make a novena to St. Jude". And you'd pray to them and if you find it, or when it's resolved, then you're supposed to do special prayer devotional to them. It's just a ritual of prayer that follows this pattern that's actually written down and you do it for a number of days. And actually if you notice, people put them in the paper. That's another thing, but when your prayer is answered you're supposed to put a little thing in the paper...
HB: In the regular newspaper?
Lois G: Yeah. They're still in there all the time.
HB: Sort of a formal thank you?
Lois G: Um-hum, that St. Jude helped me or
Lois G: Um-hum, that St. Jude helped me and now we will devote this time to him. Yeah.
HB: And what would you... you would then do another ritual prayer as a thank you?Lois G: Uh-hum, for a certain number of days.
HB: I think ...because that's another way you were saying you didn't talk about religion but it was another way that it entered your daily life. If there was a crisis, you were automatically told to deal with it in that way.
Lois G: Um-huh. And I guess it's hard to remember if we talked about it because, you know, whether you just did it or whether....she must have talked to us about it.
HB: Did you light candles, or is that something that you picked up from Mexican-American stuff?
LG:; No, we lit candles. Candle lighting was a very big deal in church and still is. Every church we ever went to there was always a specific altar devoted to Mary or maybe there would be a big stature of Mary and there's usually a St. Joseph's altar also. And then there's just the regular altars - side altars and there were always candles in front so you would go and say a special prayer and light a candle for, you know, some specific kind of attention.
HB: Did you do that at home much, though?
Lois G: Well, we had candles on the Mary altar.
HB: During the month of May.
Lois G: Um-huh. And the Advent wreath thing was ...
HB: Yes, that's the other thing I want to ask. What did your Advent wreath look like?
Lois G: It was always pretty big and it was a ring of greenery...
HB: Did you make it?Lois G: Yeah, we made - sometimes they would make 'em like some, you know, the Altar Society or someone at church would make them. Then you could buy those.
HB: Ours were styrofoam with greenery...
Lois G: We always had, you know, when you have the three purple candles in ...and then a rose candle.
HB: That's completely different from ours.
Lois G: And - because they divide the Sundays in Lent up into - I mean Advent, they're divided into sort of themeatic like each Sunday deal with the different sort of theme and all of it is preparation for preparing yourself....
HB: So there's one for each of the four weeks.
Lois G: Um-huh. And the rose candle is to symbolize the different Sunday and that Sunday they always talk about the love, that is symbolic of the love that God has for each individual. You know, so much love that he sent his Son to help us. But that was always a different - and the priest wears purple vestment all through Advent but on that Sunday it was a rose-colored robe.
HB: You don't have a special candle for Christmas day.
Lois G: No.
HB: We had four white ones and a red one.
Lois G: No, no because we never lit a candle on Christmas Day.
HB: When would you light the ones at home? First of all, where did you keep the wreath?
Lois G: The wreath would be on a little table in the livingroom.
HB: By itself?
Lois G: Um-huh.
HB: And when would you light the candles?
Lois G: We'd light the candles usually on Sunday night.
HB: Everybody together?
Lois G: Um-hum. Before we ate.
HB: And who would light them?
Lois G: We would take turns. We also always had an Advent calendar. We'd always take turns .....
HB: Opening the doors?
Lois G: Yeah, opening the doors. I guess, when we were little my mother did it because we weren't allowed to touch matches.
HB: But it...
Lois G: Yeah and then you would just say a prayer. We each would take turns, because there were four of us.
HB: So each of you had one week to say....
Lois G: Uh-huh. And then also I also remember doing it sometimes during the week, too. I don't know why.
HB: But probably the candle that you had lit for that week?
Lois G: Right, right that would be the candle that you would always light.
HB: And then you'd do that before you ate?
Did you guys say grace when you ate?
Lois G: Um-hum. We always did.
HB: Did you read them or say them?Lois G: No, we always made them up, we still do when we're all together. You make it up.
HB: That's something I really regret having given up. But it was imposed on us and I hated it but now ? We'd always hold hands and then we'd have a moment of silence before we'd eat. Which I think is really neat.
Lois G: We always do that. And we just never, if somebody has something they want to pray about or if we're at my Grandmother's we always - because she never ?
She doesn't like to do that.
HB: She doesn't like to say it or she doesn't like to be involved in it?
Lois G: She doesn't like to - I guess she's shy about it. She hardly ever says grace. Sometimes she'll say something but usually one of us girls - she'll ask one of us to say grace.
HB: She still likes it to be done?
Lois G: Oh, yeah.
HG: Do you remember that being done when the men were around? Did they ever say the grace?
Lois G: Um-huh. But they never made it up. I remember my Dad made it up one time. I couldn't believe it. It was during the time he was sick. He made it up one time because he cried. Something was going on, something was wrong. And he cried when he said it.
We always, yeah, we always do. When we're together.
HB: I think that's a real special thing to do. Well, I can't think of anything else to ask you right now. I'm sure I'll think of everything as soon as I start writing all this down. And I took some pictures of your altar. I might take a couple more today. I just learned this morning how to operate the camera.
And I've taken some pictures of your altar, I might take a couple more today.
But you think of that as your altar, up there, right? I was just wondering....
Lois G: Well, yeah, but I find myself I do make other spaces.
HB: Do you have on in the little niche in the hallway back there.
Lois G: I always have ? on my front door.
HB: That was something I also wanted to ask you about. Tell me about this one here.
Lois G: That one....
HB: Is that the corn doll thing that I brought you from Guadalajara?
Lois G: Yeah, and I've always had - I've had one of those for years and years and they get...
HB: Is this an image of the chapel?
Lois G: Brought it out, uh-huh...
HB: We were talking more about it this morning.
Lois G: That is because we always had - and my Grandmother usually has some things, too, like in front of, not in front of the door but right by the door. Which is sort of to blessthe house.
HB: That's in a lot of religions.
Lois G: Uh-huh.
HB: Like the Jewish tradition of putting - is it ?
by the door?
Lois G: Uh-hum. And we always had something right by the door.
HB: And what does your Grandmother have?
Lois G: She has a little, like one of those little wooden things that open - the Holy Family, I can't remember the word for it. The little wooden bark-like thing that would open.
HB: Like the little Peruvian things?
Lois G: Yeah. Kind of like that. That would open up. We always had those, too. I don't know where those came from.
They weren't like that, they were - I've got one somewhere. They were always really decorated with gold on the outside they were just wooden-like book and they opened.
HB: And what did they have on the inside?
Lois G: An image of the Blessed Virgin, or of Jesus and sometimes a prayer on the other side.
HB: Huh! Because the only kinds I've ever seen of Him was
Latin American.
Lois G: They have a - Italians have those, too. They make them in Italy a lot. They are wooden - and they're just jointed in the middle like a book.
HB: Okay. Have you looked at my altar? I have a little trip-tick. That's what you're talking about and it's got two sides that close up. And it has an image of the Virgin and Child on the inside. A friend of mine brought it to me from Italy.
Lois G: Yeah, they use more of them because they used to have altar pieces like that. That's what altars - they'd be
behind an altar. So that's where they ....
HB: Like History l0l huh?
Lois G: Yeah. That's where it came from.
HB: But, Holy Water, we talked about that, too. Because aren't there special holders for Holy Water?
I'm trying to picture them. I know I've seen them before.
Lois G: They're usually - actually what they are is little tiny baptismal font. That's what they sort of look like. And ...
HB: But people have them in their houses, don't they?
Sometimes?
Lois G: Yeah, sometimes people do.
HB: I think some people keep them by the door.
Lois G: Um-huh. Yeah, I've seen that.
HB: Did your Grandmother ever keep Holy Water at home?
Lois G: No, I've never had that.
HB: Your other spaces through the house - do you think of those differently than you do this one out here? Because this has got your political stuff and you've got your memorial to your Father and things about your friends.Lois G: Well, I think it's almost like I find myself making these little spaces and I don't know why although I know they're each sort of for a different purpose. It's almost unconscious like I'll put things there that I wouldn't put in another space.
HB: To me it's almost like they get successively private.
Going back into your more personal rooms... and this is sort of your public altar that you have these.
Well, even in your space in your bathroom you have pictures of your friends. Seems like it's more private than this and there are things you keep by your bed are your very religious objects like your crucifix. Those are things that are more traditional.
Lois G: Uh-huh. That's probably true.
HB: And I don't know about that space in the hall, but that's a little different.
Lois G: I don't know what that is.
HB: It looks like one of the Netros.
Lois G: You know, like I had in there things that, like I've got something of Brandy's, Brandy Neis? that died. I don't know what that is.
HB: How does your Mother feel about your altars?
Lois G: Well, she mad about that one at first, because you know I told you she' ? She couldn't believe I made a shrine to her father, or something. She was mad about that.
But now that I've kind of explained it to her, she likes it.
HB: It's so interesting that your Grandmother has done that. How about your Grandfather? Because you never told me about that before? It's still got hair in it?
Lois G: Um-hum. My Mother used to think that was ? Everything she has ? teeth up there.
HB: His false teeth? Sitting out?
Lois G: No, ?
HB: The stuff he left behind.
Lois G: Um-huh. She would not even take care of his ?
HB: That's kind of interesting that your Mother would respond to this negatively when it's kind of the same thing.
Lois G: Yeah, it is, in a way. Yeah, but also if you - she really worshipped her Father. ? You know when I explained to her, you know, it wasn't - I mean it was a shrine in a way, but it wasn't - you know, it's my way of keeping a connection to him and also am still thinking about and talking to him and also praying for him even though...
HB: What about Linda and Beth? Have they done creative spaces, or done any of the things that you have done and I think....
Lois G: No. Linda is much more - Linda is very traditional in her religious beliefs. And Beth is so private I doubt she would ever have anything like that. She's probably the most private - I doubt she would ever have anything like that. She's probably the most private of all of us and the most interior kind of person.
HB: A lot of people set those things up late in their lives so it's kind of hard to say.Lois G: Yeah. But she's very private. I think that's just more of her character. She's a very private kind of a person and she's very much ? cancer and they're all ?
END OF TAPE l, Side 2, about 25 minutes.