THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES
ORAL HISTORY PROGRAM
INTERVIEW WITH: Herb Hall
DATE: February 23, 1980
PLACE: At his home in Boerne, Texas
INTERVIEWER: Sterlin Holmesly
SH: Herb, let's talk about your family, about the Hall family,
Reserve, Louisiana.
HH: Of, course. (Laughter).
SH: About how you grew up and how you came to be a musician and
about your brothers •••
HH: Well, I have to •.• just five of us and • •• five of us all total.
Five boys. And ••• my older brother, we just ••• he isn't here now.
He was the first of 'em to start playin', you know, playin' really
good professionally. Then father, then next brother and then the
next brother, then .•. the •.• the fourth brother . I think he •.• I
don't think he ••• I don't think he started until way late, you
know, then I followed that. I was the next to •••
SH: How old were you when you started playin'?
HH: When I started playin' professionally? I was sixteen.
Sixteen years old.
SH: How long had you played before you went professional?
HH: Well, I was, you know •.. I started professionally, let's put
it that way, you know. And I'd practice at home .••
SH: Right.
HH: And that kind of stuff. Since I.... late, you know.
SH: Well, who .•• who taught all of you ••• guys how to play?
HH: Well, most of us, we taught ourselves.
SH: Taught yourselves to read and •••
HALL 2
HH: Yeah. Well, the .•. we had ... had some help along the way,
but ..• we started practicin' the instrument ourselves, you know.
SH: Were your parents musical? Did ..•
HH: Yes, my father was fine at it and ••• on my mother's side, my
uncles were always playin' somethin' ••• guitar or , you know, that
kind of stuff. And one of my uncles plays a brass instrument.
SH: Who were your parents? What were they like?
HH: Hall.
SH: Yeah, I know. But, first name? What was your Dad's
first .•.
HH: Oh, Edward.
SH: Yes. And your Mom's name?
HH: Carolyn.
SH: Carolyn. And your brothers?
HH: Robert, Edmund, Clarence, Edward and me, Herbert.
SH: And all five of you played profes s i onally ••• at one time or
another?
HH: Yes, at one time or another. That's t rue. Yeah.
SH: All right. Where •.• where was your first job when you were
sixteen years old? Where did you play?
HH: I •.• I can't remember that. I was •••
SH: Was it in Reserve?
HH: It was in Reserve with my .•• with my Godfather. My Godfather
had a band and I worked with him.
SH: Was it a dance or a concert?
HH: Yeah, a dance.
SH: Yeah,.
HH: We never did any concerts.
HALL
SH:
HH:
Were you playin ' jazz?
Yeah. Jazz. Yeah.
SH: I see. And •.• did you and your brothers ever get a band
together .•• just the Hall Brothers?
HH: (Laughter). No.
SH: Well, did everybody play, reed? All your brothers?
3
HH: All except ••• all except the one before me, Edward. Edward .••
tried ••• ! think, to base horne •••
SH: Uh huh.
HH: ••• once in a ruther ••• base horne. But I never •••
SH: Professional ...
HH: •.• think he did.
SH: Never heard him play?
HH: Never heard him play. No, I was here at that time. I was i n
San Antonio when he started.
Male Voice:
HH: Huh?
Male Voice:
HH: Yeah, I don't know ••• who taught him or what. When I left
horne he was ••.
Your Godfather taught him.
HH: Oh , my Godfather taught him?
SH: Who's ..• who's the Godfather?
HH: My Godfather? Marshall Lawrence.
SH: Marshall Lawrence •••
HH: Yeah .
SH: In Reserve.
HALL 4
HH: Yeah.
SH: And when ••• when did you leave Reserve? How old were you?
HH: Oh, I can't remember ••• 'cause ••• it's •.• somewhere in the •••
early twenties ••• when I left Reserve and I went to Baton Rouge.
SH: And what did you do?
HH: I worked for the band. I was working with ••• Kid Victor.
Victor's Band. Not a bad place.
SH: New Orleans type jazz band?
HH: Yes. Uh huh.
SH: Were you on clarinet then? Is that what you started with?
Clarinet?
HH: Yes , sir ••• clarinet. But I was ••• ! was also playin'
saxophone then.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: So ••• what ••• wha •• in fact , what happened around that time, he
had begun ••• using (gong from clock marking the hour) larger
groups, you know.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: In fact, the band I was with, they had ••• well, Victor was
a ••• a trumpet player and his brother played violin. We had a
trombone ••• and a saxophone and ••• a piano, you know. Then they
added another saxophone; they had two saxophones. The band was
getting larger, you know. We had a couple of saxophones and •••
SH: Gettin' into sections.
HH: Yeah , gettin' into s e ctions.
SH: Well , did •••
HH: Well, at that time ••• well, at that time I was ••• ! was
l earnin'
/
HALL 5
HH: .•• I was reading a little.
SH: Yeah.
HH: I was playing the alto.
SH: Well , in those days most reed men had to play more than one
reed , didn't they? To get by in the bands? I mean , the bands
went big and you had to d ouble or triple •••
HH: Right. And they had to know how to read because •••
SH: Uh huh.
HH: ••• everybody was playin' music then.
SH: Yeah, everybody •••• every band had a book , I guess.
HH: Yes.
SH: What were the ••• what type of names of tunes did you play
with? With • •• with ••• Baton Rouge? You weren't really the
standard •••
HH: Was •••
SH: ••• New Or leans?
HH: Yes. No. Some ••• some was .•• were there , but ••• but the
majority of tunes we played were .•. were cu~rent •• • popular tunes.
(Clock strikes the half hour).
SH: Uh huh. Did you have an arranger? Or . •• ?
HH: No, just the stock ••• both stock •••
SH: Just by the charts?
HH : No, not the charts. Shee t music .
SH: Oh , sheet music.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
SH: You buy those for .• • for enough pieces?
HH: Well, this •.. well, they had ••• they had all the pieces in this
••• in the •••
HALL
SH:
HH:
SH:
Oh, in one buy?
In one sheet.
Yeah.
6
HH: Yeah. That's how they solo, you know. They had all the
parts. Three saxophones, sometimes four, then it went up to five
sax and •.. three brass and then it went to four brass ••• as ••• as •••
the band improved •••
SH: Uh huh.
HH: And as the music became ••• and then they had special
arrangements, you know. Big sheets.
SH: Well, did you ••• this allow you room for solos? In their •••• ?
HH: Yes.
SH: A little creativity?
HH: Yeah. Uh huh.
SH: How long did you stay in Baton Rouge?
HH: Oh, about two years. Then I went to New Orleans.
SH: Where did you play in New Orleans?
HH: I played with Sidney Desvigne. No, no steady job ••• just ••.
SH: Worked around?
HH: Yeah. Worked around ••• giggin', we call it.
SH: Right. Were you at the same ••• same group in Baton Rouge
those two years? Kid Victor •••.
H: Yes.
SH: Were you with them all the time?
HH: Yeah. All the time. Yes. Yeah.
SH: Who ••• who did you play with when you were giggin• around New
Orleans other than ••• Kid, what was his name?
HALL 7
HH: I worked with ••• Fletchers's A new band was formin' with
D.H. Holmes •.. or was it, ? D.H. Holmes, you see, was a teacher
from ••• from •••
SH: Fletcher?
HH: Fletcher. Yes •••• Yeah. And we rehearsed , but I ... I don't
think we worked a job there from ••. but we were rehearsing for
somethin', but nothin' materialized, so I joined Sidney Desvigne.
He had a band, so ••• ! went with him.
SH: Was it pretty easy to make a livin' or did you have to
scuffle some?
HH: Well ••• (laughter) ••• it wasn't too bad. I was single then, so
it didn't matter, you know.
SH: Th is was what ••• about mid-twenties?
HH: This is ••• well, the latter part of the twenties. 'Cause I
left there in '29. So , I was there about ••• two years before I
left and came here.
SH:
HH:
SH:
HH:
SH :
HH?
SH:
Right.
Came to San Antonio.
So you
Uh huh. Right.
Reserve in about 1925 and two years ••.
In Baton Rouge, and a couple of years in New Orleans.
Right. That is correct.
And ••• why did you come to San Antonio?
HH: Well, Don Albert come down there. He had •. • been here. He
had been working with Troy Floyd's Band •••
SH: Uh huh.
HH: You know. So, he came down there and he worked with Bebe
HALL 8
HH: Ridgeley .•• which ••• they had a job at some hotel in New
Orleans, you know.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: Louis Cottrell and Arthur Derbigny. A bunch of guys. So •..
some agent called down from Dallas and told him, asked him if he
could come to Dallas and do the State Fair, and he'd book him.
So, he starts huntin' musicians , you know what I mean. So they
asked me, "Would ••• (I) ••• go?" So we •.• I decided I would go with
him. And that's how we got together.
SH: And that was ••• l929.
HH: '29. And that was •••
SH: And you went with him as a ••• as a saxophonist.
HH: Saxophonist.
SH: And Cottrell was on clarinet, I guess.
HH: He was a saxophonist.
SH: Saxophonist.
HH: Both of us were saxophonists .•• Arthur Derbigny, Louis
Cottrell and myself.
SH: How long did you stay with ••• with Don Albert?
HH: I stayed with Don until ••. l940. Yeah, from ••• from '29, let's
see. Yes. Yeah. October 29th •.•
SH: You were with him •••
HH: Well. ••
SH: Steadily •••
HH: No.
SH: Or off and on?
'cause we stayed •••
HH: No. No. Off and on because I ••• I left the band in Pittsburgh .
I worked with the band in Pittsburgh for ••• oh, ••• we worked at a
HALL 9
HH: club through the winter and ••• summer we went to •..
Cincinnati. From Cinci •.• the band broke up and I went to (Cuckoo
from clock) ••• to ••• Columbus? No. Cleveland. Cleveland. And I
worked with a group in Cleveland and then this band I was with in
Pittsburgh came back and we started workin' in a ••• in a club
there, so ••• through the season, through the winter season.
SH: Uh huh. Well, do you remember the ••• the name of the band in
Pittsburgh and Cleveland or the leader? What •••
HH: Jimmy Watson was the leader of the band in ••• in Pittsburgh.
SH: Uh huh. What about Cleveland?
HH: Cleveland ••• I worked with a woman, Shudina Walker, and
she ••• she was a pianist.
SH: Were you playing sax just about all the way through the
30's?
HH: Yeah, sax and then, you know. Rarely I play clarinet
because ••• only I play •••
SH: Yeah.
HH: Clarinet parts.
SH : Yeah. Well, how was it, bein' on the road in the '30's •.•
with the big band?
HH: It was rough. Believe me. It was during The Depression.
SH: Right.
HH: It was really, really tough.
SH: And ••• while you ••• were a black man , you traveled ma inly in
the what ••• south ••• southeast?
HH: Yeah. Most of the •••
SH: Southwest?
HH: Right.
HALL 10
HH: we worked ••• we went to ••. to •.• to the North, you know, played
around New York with Don Albert Band. We doin• Don Albert things.
SH: You traveled quite a bit .
HH: Yeah. All the ••• all up and down the East Coast, Midwest and
then we go to ••• west.
SH: Guess you spent a lot of nights on the bus?
HH: (Laughter).
SH: Sleepin• on the bus?
HH: You better believe it. Yes, we did. Traveling, you know.
SH: Was this because you couldn 1 t afford a hotel or because you
were blacks in the South?
HH: Yes.
SH: Or some of each.
HH: Yes. Yes. Both.
SH: What about food? How did you manage that?
HH: Well , when we get to town sometimes we find a ••• go to places
and just get somethin• to eat. Other than that we just stop at a
grocery store or somethin• along the highway •••• and get a sandwich
or somethin• , get some baloney and bread and what have you, you
know and ••.
SH: Well, didn 1 t that get pretty tiresome for •••
HH: Yeah, but •••
SH: For ten years? Off and on?
HH: Well , yes, but when you•re young, you don•t ••. you don•t
realize those things.
SH: You don•t know any better.
HH: (Laughter).
SH: Well , how was it in New York? You ••• you guys played in •••
HALL ll
SH: where, The Apollo or the ••.
HH: Yeah, we played ••• I'rn tryin' to think •••
SH: Up in some of Harlem's spots •.. The Cotton Club?
HH: No , we didn't play The Apollo Theatre . We played ••• in fact, I
don't think we played in New York [i.e. in Manhattan]. We played
over in Brooklyn.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: We were booked in a theatre in Brooklyn. We were supposed to
drive with ••• oh, Ralph ••• what's Ralph's name? He was a ••• he ••• he
had a show at the ••• at and at different black •••
SH: Was he a promoter?
HH: No, he was only an MC ••• like.
SH: Oh.
HH: Like t hat .
SH: And he took charge of the show , whatever.
HH: Yeah. And he got the acts and everything and we went on a
little t our but they didn't last that much because who ••• we
weren't rnakin' any money. And so we had to ••• had to l eave to come
on back down horne. (Laughter).
SH: Don told me a story about, where was it ••• Rocky Mountain,
North or South Carolina?
HH: North Carolina.
SH: Was that ••. where you .•• the ••• the horne •••
HH: Yeah.
SH: Place of the Ku Klux Klan or •.• where there were a bunch of
robes and hoods and ••• ?
HH: No.
SH: Hangin' out? Do you remember that?
,,
HALL 12
HH: No. No. This was in a ••• this was in ••. well, we · played Rocky
Mount ••• we played a June German dance. That's ... that's an
annual thing they had every year.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: But ••• I'm tryin' to think ..• Paris! Paris, Texas, is where
we ••• where we played with what you is talkin' about .
SH: Oh, that is where the •••
HH: That is where the Klan was.
SH: And they had the hoods and robes •.•
HH: Right. Yeah.
SH: And by-laws and the .••
HH: Right. Yeah.
SH: And that's when you played requests for the f irst time.
(Laughter) •••
HH: (Laughter). Well, you know Donny.
SH: Yeah.
HH: He exaggerates a little. But what happened, you see , we got
in that town early before the dance started and we went into the
hall, a guy let us in the hall, and we saw these things, you
know •••
SH: They were just hangin' in the hall.
HH: Well, the Klan used when they had their meetings.
When they had their meetings. But the hall was closed , you know
what I mean, until we got there in the afternoon. Then •.. then
that ' s when we saw this whole paraphernalia , you know.
SH: All right. You left ••• Albert in 1940 and then were did you
go? How ••• this was •••
HH: San Antonio. I stayed there.
HALL 13
SH: For ••• for how long?
HH: Well, through the ••• the war.
SH: What were you doing? (Clock strikes the half hour). r
HH: I was workin' ••• I was playin' with different groups around. I
was giggin' and ••• workin' at Kelly Field.
SH: What were you ••• what were you doin' at Kelly?
HH: Well, I was just an ordinary lab ••• laborer for about ••• three
months or so, and then ••• they was formin' a band out there called
The Soldier's Civilian Band. And we rehearsed and what have yJo~ ,
and we decided ••• we started playin' the noon ••• lunch-hour ~
\
out •.• for the people who was workin' around the field. \
\
SH: Uh huh.
HH: But when they ••• when we really got into .•• when Pearl Harbor
happened, after Pearl Harbor, they began drafting all these guys
••• the ••• the soldiers. There were no more soldiers, so they had to
get civilians. That was an all- civilian band after that. But, we
still kept the band together. Big band. We had a big band.
SH: You played at noon •••
HH: At noon and we'd play ••• parties for different ••• different
buildings have parties •••
SH: Yeah.
HH: I mean it's •••
SH: Well, wasn't Don working at Kelly then, too?
HH: No.
SH: Was he part of that band?
HH: No. Don ••. Don was not in Kelly's band. Don came real later.
Yeah.
HALL
SH: Who was in that band? Do you remember anybody •.•
HH: No. No. No.
SH: in particular?
14
HH: No. No. I can't remember the names because I •.• after I left
and they weren't too well known musicians at that time.
SH: Well, were there any night clubs you played at?
HH: Yeah. Well, that's what I'm thinkin' to say ••• well, then I
started workin' downtown with the drummer that was with Don and
••• in fact, Don's band, after I left it, they came here.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: And then that's when the band split up and some of the guys
went home and different places and so •••
SH: Sax. Modern. Yes. Your drummer kind of took over.
HH: Yeah. 'Fats' Martin.
SH: Uh huh. He ••• he kinda took over.
HH: Yeah, he and ••• warren Tempe and then Juanita ••• Juanita
because later on I think, they married her as fast ••• but, anyway.
They ••• we started workin' down there at the club on Main Street
called Club Tropic. And I worked there through the war, you know.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: Yeah.
SH: Then •.. after the war?
HH: After the war? New York. (Laughter). I left and went to New
York.
SH: Just picked up and went, huh?
HH: Yeah. Just decided ••• well, my brother, my brother Ed was in
/
,/
I
HALL 15
HH: New York. So, you know, I wasn't a stranger. I'd been there
before so it was no strange ••• but I had to, you know ••• ! didn't
••• I knew the guys by name, but I never worked with any of those
guys around New York.
SH: Did you have any trouble findin' a ••• ?
HH: Not too much.
SH: Did you have to gig around?
HH: Yeah. I gigged awhile. For oh, for about, I would say for
three months or so. Then I got a steady job down ••• down in the
Village playin' a little club, just four men .
SH: What was the name of the club?
HH: I guess it was ••• yeah. Four. (Pause). Cinderella.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: And .•• I'm at the •••
SH: Uh huh.
HH: Yeah. with that strip dancin', what have you , you
know. We had a nice little band. I'll tell you ••• Sonny White. You
remember Sonny White, the piano player?
SH: I've heard the name. I'm really not that familiar with him.
HH: He ••• he was the ••• Billie Holliday's first •••
SH: Uh huh.
HH: First piano player ever recorded with Billie Holliday. So he
was with the band, and myself and ••• Harley Davis, the trumpet
player, was the leader of the band and ••• me a nd the drummer, you
know. He's a
alto sax.
man. And I was playin' clarinet, tenor sax and
SH: And how ••• how long were you there?
HH: Well. ••
SH: At the Cinderella?
/
HALL
HH:
SH:
Oh, about three years or something.
Well, about '45 ••• '48?
16
HH: I think we started around '47, somewhere around '47 •.• '48.
Somewhere around that time, and we played through ••• the '50's •••
somewhere in the 50's ••• because I left ••• when I left there I
gigged around and I went to ••• went to Eu~ope with Sammy Price.
That was in '56. I remember that. That ••• that was a year after,
well ••• couple months afte~ Edmund left and went with Louis.
SH: Uh huh. Right.
HH: And they had been ove~ there.
SH: Yeah, the two •••
HH: And came back here and I missed them. We were goin' over when
they were comin' back. And then ••• that's when they did the movie
'High Society'.
SH: Yeah, right.
HH: So I was over there with Sammy Price and'Pops' Foster and ••.
and Berry, and, you know.
SH: How ••• did you just move there? Or were you on a tour?
HH: On a tou~.
SH: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. We were wo~king for F~e nch organization, so •••
you know, that organization that promotes ••• they're a
cultural organization •••
SH: Uh huh.
HH : ••• that promotes things for the kids, to the multiple
children, children, youngsters.
SH: Were you all billed as Le Jazz Hot or ••• American Jazz or ••• ?
HALL 17
HH: (Laughter) I don't know.
SH: Where did you tour? Just •.• France, primarily?
HH: No. We played France. We played ••• we went to North Africa.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: And ••• well, we played France for that organization but after
that tour was over, then we went to Belgium and Holland and what
have you. We stayed over there ••• we were over there about six
months. Yeah. All total. Yeah.
SH: Did ••• did you enjoy it?
HH: Oh, yeah. It's nice. Yeah.
SH: Did Annie go with you?
HH: Yes. She was with me the later part of the ••• tour. Yeah.
SH: And then you went, what ••• back to New York?
HH: We carne back to New York. Yes. And I worked around, you know,
gigged around, and then I got with Eddie Condon, Condon group.
SH: You played ••• you played with Condon for quite awhile, didn't
you?
HH: Uh huh. I joined Condon in '58 •.• the beginning of '58, the
later part of '57, early '58.
SH: And how long did you play with Eddie [Condon]?
HH: I played with Eddie till the club closed, you know.
SH: Which was .•• when?
HH: Which was ••• I'rn tryin' to think ••• three years.
That's when they moved from downtown and they really should've
moved uptown.
SH: Uh huh.
HALL
HH:
SH:
HH:
SH:
HH:
SH:
HH:
SH:
HH:
SH:
HH:
But the ..•
Well, it's ••• it's been open again for quite awhile now.
Well, that's ••• that's under another ••.
Yeah.
name.
But they still use •••
They used to call it The
Still use Condon's name?
Yes, yes.
Right next to Ryan's •••
18
Right. They moved. You see, when they moved from the Village
uptown ••• in fact, the property that they were usin' down there
really actually belonged to New York University •••
SH: Uh huh.
HH: for their campus. So they ••. they decided they're gonna build
a medical school down there of some type. So they ••• tore down all
those buildings and reclaimed their property. And so they had to
kinda move uptown to East 56th Street. Right off of First Avenue.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: And that's where ••. that's where the club was, ya' know.
Sutton Hotel. And we stayed there until ••. well, just before they
closed. And ••• well, it's hard, I don't know exactly what
happened, but from what I can understand ••• to bad management.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: For awhile, you know. And the business began goin' down and
they changed the policies somewhat and they moved to •.• they put a
dance floor in front of the band which made the commercial type of
thing, you know. Quit being a jazz spot, you know, one of those
sorts of things.
HALL 19
SH: Uh huh. Who all played with you at Condon's, other than
Condon?
HH: Oh, James Schrader was the pianisti George Whettling , drummer
for awhile. Uh, 'Cutty' Cuttshall, trombone, Rex Stewart
[trumpet], and myself, and Condon [guitar], and uh, Leonard Gaskin
was the bass player.
SH: He was •••
HH: That was until, well, you know, some guys left during the
time we were there. James Schrader went to work, uh, with a group
from New Orleans and was travelin' ••• and more or less •••
SH: Dukes of •••
HH: Dukes of Dixie. Yeah.
SH: Dukes of Dixieland.
HH: For awhile ••• then George Whettling, had to get rid of him
'cause •• .
SH: Uh huh.
HH: he was, you know, he was hittin' that booze a little too
heavy and he was •.• (Laughter).
SH: Couldn't keep the beat, huh? (Laughter).
HH: (Laughter). And ••• Rex left and then we started usin '
different trumpet players and that, you know, and so on.
SH: Well, did this make for kind of a ••• an unstable band or were
you able to ••• were you satisfied with the music •••
HH: Oh, yes.
SH: even with all the changes?
HALL 20
HH: Oh 1 yes.
SH: Everybody who came in could play?
HH: Yes, eve~ybody ••• well, everybody that came in knew what was
go1. n ' on •••
SH: Yeah.
HH: You know, we all played the same .•• lived in the same dream •••
the music was bein' played.
SH: Was it basically New Orleans-Chicago?
HH: What do they call it? They called it Chicago style.
SH: Yeah. (Pause). Well, what about Condon, I ••• I hear different
opinions about him as a musician. What did you think of him as a
player?
HH: Condon was ••• was a pretty nice guitar, rhythm guitar player.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: Yeah. He was a pretty nice , but he wasn't a solo man.
[i.e. E.C. did not improvise solos].
SH: Yeah.
HH: Yeah. But my impression was that he was more of an entre •••
more of a ••• is what, entrepreneu~?
SH: Uh huh.
HH: Is that the word?
SH: Right.
HH: Like the guy that gets out and talks to people and promotes
things •••
SH: Yeah, a promoter. Yeah.
HALL 21
HH: Yes, Yes.
SH: More that than a musician?
HH: Oh, yeah.
SH: He could fill in.
HH: Oh, yes.
SH: He could hold his own.
HH: But thanks to Condon for ••• for jazz •••
SH: Yeah.
HH: for this type of jazz. He brought it back.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: He's resp ••. he's one of the major causes of its bein' back
because during the war when ••. when Nick's was the only place that
had jazz in New York at that time. And Eddie was workin' then, and
he, when the band had an intermission, and Eddie was talkin' to
people, and, uh, they would always have to call him to play
because he was tryin' to promote this jazz. So finally he stopped
promotin' this type of jazz in Carnegie Hall and places like t hat,
then Boston and others. Then he ••• then after the war, they started
bringin' in guys from New Orleans, Chicago, these old timers
and ••• and you know, that's when being' ••• gettin ' popular. The New
Orleans got on the bandwagon, you know.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: (Laughter). Because, believe me, New Orleans did nothin' for
jazz. Nothin'.
SH: After ••• after it left there, you mean, or ••• ?
HALL 21A
HH: That's right. Well, when it was there, I mean, the ••• the •••
the guys, you know, people liked what was happening but, I
mean, they never did publicize, made nothin' out of it, you know.
SH: Well, Condon was f rom Chicago, wasn't he? Didn't he play with
Bud Freeman and that bunch?
HH: Yes. Uh huh.
SH: In Chicago?
HH: He and Bud Freeman, George Whettling, a group of guys, you
know.
SH: McPartland?
HH: McPartland ••• Yeah.
(Pause in the tape).
HH: I ••• • I saw an article. I think this Milton Hinton gave me an
article that was written in The [New Orleans) Times-Picayune in
somewhere in 1919. And they were criticizing jazz. And I don't
know what happened to that article. I had it, you know.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: ••• you lose things.
SH: Well, jazz was among a lot of people, they felt, you know, it
was bad music •••
HH: Yes. Right.
SH: Dirty music or whatever.
HALL 22
HH : Right. Well, you know, people . .. people are funny. The
American people are very funny wh en it comes to their culture.
They're . .. they're .. . they're to me, they're sort of backwards, at
least, that's how it seems to me. I mean, it's ... it's one of the
few, if not the only culture, that we have in thi s country a nd ...
and, you know. Up until recently, up until what I'd say is the last
fou r presidents, three or four pres idents ... it's a long time the y had
anything pertaining to their own cul tu re in Washington.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: And this is the only country in the world that ... a ll other
countrie s . .. they had their own culture whenever they have anything
pertaining to their government.
SII: And the government ... our government has just gotten into that.
HH: Right.
SH: Well, The National Endowment for th e Arts has ... has helped
some on that and . ..
HH: Right.
SH: Of course, there's some help even i n San Antonio with the lo cal ...
HH: Right.
SH: city government bein' involved ... brown bag days and ja zz .
HH: Right.
SH: and different types of music. But that's ... that's one of the
few cities that's involved in it.
HH: Yup . And another thing is ... ja zz as I said b e for e, is ... it's
not the ONLY culture that we have here that's ori gi nal.
HALL 23
HH: It's ONE of the ••• cultures. One of the few cultures that we
have ••• that's the reason I'rn .•• and what I can't understand , we
lost so many good musicians during the Depression and since the
Depression because as soon as the musician gettin' married, you
have children and then you have to stay horne. You have to get
down to business and find a job, find sornethin' else to do. We
lost many good musicians that way. See. But, if we would
subsidize jazz that could DO symphony music, which is not music at
all ••• !
SH: Uh huh.
HH: See. (Laughter). That's not our culture. That's .•. that's
European culture.
SH: Right.
HH: If you subsidize jazz, which is our culture, then we, you
know, things would be much better for the musicians. We'd have
better musicians than we have today, possibly. 'Cause a lot of
them just have to quit.
SH: Well, the San Antonio Symphony last year had subsidies of
over $300,000.
HH: There you go. (Laughter). Now, that's just one orchestra.
SH: Right. That was both city and Federal subsidies. But, I
rnean, ••• you ••• you obviously regard jazz as an art form ••• ?
HH: Oh, sure.
SH: cultural art f orm?
HH: Oh, sure it is.
SH: How would you define jazz •••
HH: Oh .••
SH: in a sentence of two? Can that be done?
HALL 24
HH: (Laughter). No, it's very hard ... it's very hard to define it.
It's ... it ' s more than reading, reading music and interpreting
your own, not tryin' to imitate somebody else or ... or tryin' to
... tryin' to feel what the conductor wants you to do. You do ...
you . .. you interpret your own fee l ings you get. (Clock strikes
the hour) . But it's the solo work ...
SH: Solo work ... .
HH: in jazz. Yes.
SH: within th e framework of what the band is playin'.
HH: Right. Right.
SH: Th e limitations of the chords or whatever.
HH: There you go. (Laughter).
SH: How do you, when you 're so lo in', what goes through your mind?
How do you get it from your heart and your head through your fingers
and out the end of the c l arinet?
HH: (Laughter).
SH: You know how that works?
HH: Well , it's .. .
SH: Is it con s cious?
HH: Oh, yes. Yes . You're conscious of wha t you're doin' but you
have to . .. you have to create as you go along.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: Just like what I've . .. what I've said to you half an hour ago,
I've forgotten what I've said oh, fifteen minutes ago ...
SH: Uh huh.
HH: I've forgotten. It's the same when you're playin'
jazz. You're interpreting. You ' re playing' to . .. to the melody.
You're playing . .. sometimes you'll play the melody, but yo u .. . you
HALL
HH:
SH:
HH:
SH:
HH:
SH:
so~t of embellish the melody with your thoughts •..
Uh huh.
with you ideas.
And you never play it again exactly the same?
No , you can't. Yeah.
But you ••• obviously you have to have control of your
instrument?
HH: Oh, you have to. Yeah.
25
SH: And you're still practicing ••• what, how many hours? Two or
three?
HH: Oh, sometimes. Yes. Yes.
SH: And that way you can play it without having any doubt about
being able •••
HH: Right.
SH: to do what you want to do.
HH: Right. Yes. Whatever comes to your mind. A lot of times
that's what those you can ••• you can do it.
SH: And you've practiced what, regularly since you were sixteen?
HH: (Laughter). When I had time, let's put it that way. When I
wasn't runnin' all over the country ••• tryin' to make a dollar.
(Laughter).
SH: Yeah. (Pause). Well, how do you ••• here you've been in the
music business more that 50 years?
HH: Yes. That's right.
SH: You're in good shape. You're healthy. How do you explain
that? I've ••• I've know a lot of musicians who didn't ••• weren't in
nearly as good shape at 30 as you are a what ••• 72 ••• or 3?
HALL 26
HH: (Laughter). 72. Well, I really took care of myself, I would
say. Yeah. I never came up ••• I never was a fast ••• I was never a
drinke~, number one, and nobody in my family was a drinker.
That•s ••• that's a big plus. And ••• I smoked for awhile, then after
awhile I find, oh, what's the use, you know •••
SH: Uh huh.
HH: I'm not gettin' anythin' out of it. So I just ••• quit
smoking. And ••• I started thinkin' about health then, you know.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: So I got into Yoga, meditation, that kind of stuff.
And ••• health foods and •••
SH: Well, I would regard you as one of the most •••
HH: ercercising.
SH: disciplined people I know.
HH: Thank you. (Laughter).
SH: We ••• as far as yourself, you •.• you seem to have a lot of
self-discipline, willpower, control •••
HH: Right.
SH: over who you are and what you want to do and how you want to
do it. And if I may say so, that's a ra~ity.
HH: (laughter).
SH: And I admire you fo~ it.
HH: Thank you.
END OF TAPE I, SIDE 1, 45 Minutes.
SIDE 2.
SH: What would you advise a young person now who wanted to make a
living as a jazz player? What would you tell him or her to do?
HALL 27
HH: We ll, they have ... tha t I . . . I think they have better oppo .. .
opportunity now t han we had when we were kids because we had . . . we
came up the hard way. Now they have schools just startin' in the
primary schools teachin ' if you wa n t to play some i n strument , and
your parents have to give a litt l e money for the instrument, I
imagine , the school and the pract icin ' and they have teachers
and what have you until you become . . . you get out of high school and
col l ege. A lot of guys ... a lot of kids come out of college, I
mean, right into the big bands. ' Cause that' s what 's happenin'
now wi t h a lot of figures l ike Basie and Woody Herman and these
people's big bands because . . ..
SH: They go by North Texas Stat e and . ..
HH: Right.
SH : hire a sect i on every so often.
HH: Right. Yeah. And tho se . .. those ... those kids are well trained
today because they have all, oh, everything to work with, all the
facilities, the best teachers and what have you .
SH: Do you . . . do you think they hav e the oppor t unity , though, to
develop the creat ivity .. . (Clock strikes the hour of 3) ...
HH:
SH:
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
They have that, but ... but it's in the p erson.
HH: Somethin' in the individual wh en it comes to creat i vi t y .
SH: You have it, well, then so much the better . . .
HH : That's right.
SH: That ' s so much the better for the wr i ting.
HH: Writing. Right. Because you . . . you .. . you have it. When you
have all the faci lities to do whatever comes to your mind, if anything
HALL 28
comes ther e at a ll, you know ... creative ideas ... you have the
facilities to do it, if you ... and that 1 s ... that 1 s an advantage
they have over what we had.
SH: Did ... did you ever play professionally with ... with any of your
brothers? With Robert here, or ... Edmund, or .. . ?
HH: No. We never ...
SH: Never?
HH: Never played together.
SH: Never worked ....
HH: No. No . Yeah .
SH: a single night tog ether?
HH: (Laughter).
SH: That 1 s kind of unusual, wouldn 1 t you ... I me an, considerin 1 the
odds?
HH: We 11 . ..
SH: Well, all five of you were professionals.
HH: Well, what happened was .. . we started at different times, even
when Robert started.
S H : What ? H o 1 d it .
Robert was
HH: He ... he and Clarence worked together one time.
SH: Uh huh. (Pause). But you never played with any of those four
brothers?
HH: No. Not in a ... not in a band.
SH: But you ... they taught your or you taught the younger ones and ...
HH: Yeah , we .. .
SH: Everybody worked together on that.
HH: Yeah.
HALL 29
SH: Who would you choose as your favorite jazz musician •••
HH: Oh, that's ••• that's •••
SH: that you've worked with?
HH: Oh, that's a tough question. I can't ••• ! can't pinpoint
anybody ••• so many good ones, you know. So, that's hard to say
which one I ••• and ••• (Gong strikes the hour of 3) •••
SH: Well ••.
HH: instruments, you know.
SH: Well, just ••• maybe review some of the people you've worked
with .••
HH: Uh huh.
SH: and what you've thought of 'em and •••
HH: (Laughter).
SH: the good ones , you know. Say •••
HH: Some ••• some of 'em, I ••• I ••• it all depends what you like in a
person's playin'.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: You know. Some guys ••• ! like the execution, other guys , I
like their feeling ••• on certain tunes. And others, I like 'em
on .•• on the other • You see,
SH: Uh huh.
HH: when you come to playin', jazz or ••. or imp~ovising, you ••. you
go by what you ••• what you feel, what you think.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: Now, you're supposed to express that through your instrument
or whatever, you know, whatever you're doin'. Now, that's •••
that's how I judge .•• a ••• a good playe~. I mean, a creative
music ian. Now, you take some guys in .•• who can project
or ••• or ••• or that feeling just happens. (Clock strikes the hour
of 3 ). Other guys, what we call
HALL 30
soul, then you have to ... then you' re gain ' to select naturally,
a guy that plays h appy ... and if you like a guy that plays feeling
... . if you ... whatever you fee l in a guy's playing, that's the guy
you prefer. And th at 's how . .. that's how I ... I tell . .. mys e lf.
That's how I . . . I.
SH: Do you .. .
HH : See how I like certain musicians?
SH: Do person a lities enter into s ay, how well a band play s , whether
the people lik e each other, di s like each other, or do you se t all
that aside when you go to work?
HH: Oh, I put all that a s ide .
SH: Just for ge t it?
HH: Oh, yeah .
SH : Until after the ...
HH: Because this ... this ... thi s is th e big o n e . Th is mu . ..
SH : Yeah .
HH: music is my bu si ne ss. You see , when I go . .. wh e n I go on a
job, I go ah ead and work ... to produce and I ' 11 never forget that wh e n ­ever
I 'm playin', I ' m a l ways .. . always on stage 'cause you never can
t ell . .. who is listening to you.
SH: Right.
HH: You see. And . .. and . . . you ... I got ... we get so much work from
indivi dual p e opl e comin ' to th e club , you're waitin'
God, he' s gr eat, you know. Next thing you know, you get a let ter
from him, h e wants you to come somew here and do a concert or ... or
record sessi on or s om ething lik e ... l ike ... you know.
HALL 31
SH: We .. . we s traye d a little bit from you r career whe n ... Condo n
c lo sed . Wher e did you go fr om there? You stayed in New York?
HH: I stayed in New York and I just gigged around , you know ,
work ed her e and th ere. Well, a t .. . at that time , I had built a
reputation by bein' at Condon' s, you know.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: Had don e some r eco rding an d what have you. So, I did quite
a bit o f movin' around with diffe r ent gro ups. We would get a gig
here and there, goe s ... go to Washington or go to Ph iladelphia or
somep lace a nd work at n ight a n d that kind of stuff. Maybe a week,
someplace , two weeks someplac e , then back in New York ... until . .. until
. . . I start ed workin g at this ... the n ew Condon Club.
I n fact , I worked there until I l eft and came here.
SH: You all moved h ere, wh en , in ' 70?
HH: I 77 .
SH:
HH:
Early ' 77 .
Yeah. Mid . I think i t was . . . J un e. Early June.
SH : But you a ll ... you .. . I rem ember you had been down in advance ...
HH: Oh, yes. Well, we ' d come by, you know .
SH: Yeah. I remember seein g you in the Landing . . .
HH : Ri ght.
SH: in ' 76 , I think.
HH: Right.
SH: But . .. you ' re not real l y retired, yo u kn ow .
HH: No . No . Not f ully.
SH: pre tt y busy ... ?
HH: I ' m semi-retired. (Laughter) .
You ' v e been .. .
HALL
Well, you know, tell us about your schedule last year .
you were on the ro ... road with Bob Green for awhile.
SH : You were in Scandinavia for.
HH: The Scandinavian countries. Yes.
SH: What, for three weeks? Three ... four weeks?
HH: Yes , three to four weeks. Yeah.
32
You know,
SH: And who were you playin' with when you went to Scandinav i a?
HH: Well, when I went over ther e ... Doc Cheatham, Johnny Williams
and myself went over there as guests of a group over there ...
SH: Uh huh.
HH: We were ... we were guest artists over there and ... so, we did a
little tour . We played . .. Scandinavian countries ... different pla ces ,
you know .
SH : Then, you were . . .
HH: No. No. Steady work, you know .
SH: The Bob Green tour with the recreation of Jelly Roll Morton ... ?
HH: Right.
SH : ... Red Hot Peppers? That was what, a month?
HH: That was a bout a month. Yeah.
SH: Last fall?
HH: Last fall.
SH: And then you played ... Los Angeles?
HH: Yeah, I did a party there.
SH: And Mi n neapolis.
HH: Minneapolis ... very beautiful over there.
SH: Toronto?
HH: Toro nto. I went up there and did a . .. a television s how, and . . .
things like this.
SH: And you . .. work ed Kerrville ... some?
HALL 33
HH: Yes.
SH : And at the Landing some?
HH: At the Landing some.
SH: Brown bag days ...
HH: Right.
SH: in the parks.
HH: Ye s. Uh huh.
SH: So you're not . .. I don't think semi-retired is ... accurate ...
HH : (Laughter)
SH: I don' think you've quite made it that far yet . .. (laughter)
... with a ll that work!
HH: Well, you know ... what I'm sayin', when you're sayin' somethin g
like that, I'm not looking for a regular, ste a dy ...
SH: Right.
HH: steady work th a t I want to play with bec a use .. .
SI-I: You want ...
1-IH: l ike that, the Pl aza Nac ional . .. for
awhile and .. .
SH: For six ... months?
HI-I: Yeah. But ... that . . . that ... that .. . that didn't int erfere with my
outside work because I a l ways had s omebody r ep lacing me , you know.
SH: Uh huh .
HH: Tha t was . .. that was my agreemen t wh en I accepted ...
SH: Ri ght.
HH: the job .
SH : Yeah. I You were th ere, what, April to October ? Pla za Na cional?
HALL 34
HH: I think it was, somethin' like th at . Yeah.
SH: You're n o t lo oking for anoth e r steady job right now like that,
are you?
HH: No. No. Because I have ... I have quite a f ew commitment s and, you
know . ..
SH: What are your commitments? What . .. you goin' to New Orleans
Monday?
HH: Goin' to New Orleans. Yes.
SH: Make a record with them.
HH: With ... Clyde Wilson . Clyde Wilson, Jeannette Kemplem an, Don
.. . whole lot o ' guy s go nna be on it, you kno w. at differ ent tim es.
It's not one record. We're gonna do a series of records . .. for abo ut
four days ... four or five days .. . r ecord i n g .
SH: What's the theme of t h e r ecord? Do you know?
HH: No , I don 't. I don ' t know .
SH : J u s t find out wh en you ge t th ere.
HH: Uh huh. Ye s.
SH : And th en what? Aft e r New Orl ean s ?
HH: Good couple of gigs around here ... unti l. .. un ti l April. But I'll
be with Bob Green again in April. (Me t a l bucket agains t sink sounds)
SH: You gonna hav e The Bob . .. . ?
HH: Yeah, in April. (Fema le voice in bac kground : One of these days .. . )
SH : For how long ?
HH: I think this'n a bout five or six weeks.
SH : Wow.
HH: Uh huh .
SH: That band must be quite a hit!
HALL
HI-I: Oh, yes. Everywhere we go, there's a standing ovation.
SH: Well, now ...
HH: you know.
35
SH: you know, that's a (female voice in background: The doctor's
comin' . .. ) RCA Reco rds ... comes out about '74.
HH: Well, that was the ... that was the ...
SH: That was your first tour?
HH: That was the first concert we did. No t ... not the first, no,
the second concert we did ...
Female voice in Background:
SH: Uh huh .
What did you think ... poor baby ...
HH: you know. Since that, we've done two others in New York.
first one in New York, th e second one was in New York ...
Female voice: ... last year ...
SH : Where is y ... ?
HH: two other sinc e then.
Female voice in background c on tinues ... unintelligible.
SH: Wh ere is your tour this year?
The
HH : Around mid-America ... from south of Chicago on down 'bout to
Mobile, Alabama ... and then be around Dallas for two, three days working
different colleges or Civic Centers and .. . \~h at have you. That's al l
we played ...
SH: Ah huh.
HH: everything ... concerts.
SH: And th e youn g peop l e dig ?
HH: Oh, yes. (Laughter). Yes. Well, it's .. . it ' s more like a ...
it's not just music, you kno\-.r , it's ... it's a story, too.
HALL
Female voice continues in background : unintelligible.
SH: Uh huh. Yeah.
HH: Bob narrates his life.
SH: Uh huh. Yeah.
HH: Well, you .•• you have the record.
SH: Right.
36
HH: Yeah. And it's ••• (Female voice ••• unintelligible) ••• it's a
little different from ••• from the regular jazz c oncerts ••• there's
somethin' ••• (Female voice: And when I'm havin' a tough time ••• I
hate
SH:
HH:
SH:
HH:
SH:
it ••• ) ••• else happenin'.
Yeah. Does it get a little tedious d o in' the same tunes?
Yeah. (Female voice: And ••• )
in the afternoon?
Yeah. It gets monotonous at times.
and ••• (Female voice: ••. she said ••• ) ••• you're with Bob
Green's band and you mainly play the som ·~ ••• (Female voice: ••• she
decided .•• ) ••• Orner Simeon-type clarinet or the •••
HH: Well. ••
SH: Simeon, I mean, you're not imitating him, but that's the •••
HH: Yeah.
SH: Albert system, l ow register •••
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
SH: the New Orleans-type •••
HH: Yes.
SH: c larinet?
HH: Uh huh. Uh huh. Yeah .
SH: And you have some reading in there, don't you? (Dishes clash
in background) .
HH: Oh, yes. Quite a bit of reading. Quite a bit. In fact,
HALL 37
everything is . .. is ...
SH: Not much l eeway. Yeah.
HH: Yeah. Got ... oh, pretty ...
Female voice: unint elligi ble
SH: Wit hin the solo s or some of th e oth e r . . . ?
HH: Well, I tell you, I tell you why I do that. I'm not the on l y
one ... (Female vo ice: So , I'm gonna mak e
one .. . I made ... a whole ... ) .. . thi ng s . You see, those . .. those r ecords,
I mean, those are copies , the arr an gement i s copied from the records.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: And . .. all,it's used for guidelines. I don ' t play the solo
(di shes clack in b ackgro und) like it is writt en .
SH: It's jus t kind of a loos e roadmap ... (dishes clack in back ground ) .
HH: Righ t. That ' s right . That ' s right . And most . . . (dishes clack)
of the guys understand that because . ..
SH: Yeah.
HH: it ' s impossib l e for you to attack and .. . . th e same t hing ... (dishes
c l ack) ... th e s ame way the other guy did it.
SH:
HH:
SH:
HH:
SH:
HH:
SH:
Yeah.
You can' t do it.
Wh a t, sixty years ago?
(Laughter). Right.
Longer t h an that.
Right. Yes.
Almost ...
Sixty-fi ve years ago !
Some of those record i ngs \-Jere ... ( di s he s clack i n background) .. .
'2 6 ... ' 27 b ecause I have some of ' em. (Dishes clack ) And after you
do the Bob Gr een Tour, that ge t s you what . . . int o J uly ?
HH: Uh huh.
HALL 38
SH: June?
HH: May ... (Female voice in background .. . unintelligible) ... I mean,
April . .. May.
SH: May. Yeah .
HH: Yeah, April and ... No , we ' ll be in ... no, the later ... it's
longer ... (Dog barks) ... first or second week in May we'll be through.
SH: Oh. Ok.
HH: We do ...
SH: . . a month of April ... and ear l y part of May. Right.
HH: Th i s ... this one we ... we've been busier than a ny of the others
because we've been doin', accordin' ... (female voice in background:
unintelligible) ... to the ... to the coordinating center, we've been
doin' s i x ni ghts a week. (Female voice: And they had some . . . .
dog barks) And th at ' s .. . that's ...
SH : Well, how does bein' on the road with Bob Green compare to
being on the road with Don Albert back in the ' 30's?
HH:
SH :
HH:
SH:
HH;
Ho .. . ho . . . ho ... (laughter) ...
Have things improved?
Oh, ho . .. ho ... ho! You'd better believe it! (Laugh ter) . And how!
You don't have to s l eep in the bus, yes? (Clock strikes half hour).
Right! (Laughter). And ... everything . .. we have our program all
set. We've go t the i t iner ary of where we ' re gain ' ...
SH: Uh huh.
HH: t he telephone number of t h e . .. the place we ' re working a n d wh o's
promoting . .. their telephone number s so we can use it with our wives or
anything happened they can get in touch with us any day, you know.
(Dishes c l ack in background) And, what time we start work, what ' s the
name of t h e place and the whole thing . Wh a t town we go to ... the
HALL 39
SH: That is, comp ared with . . . with Don Albert?
HH: You never knew where you were gain' next with .. . ( Laugh ter).
SH: Just . .. ju s t scuffl in ' , the wh o le band ...
HH : Sure .
SH: was scuff lin'.
HH:
SH:
HH:
SH:
Right.
Right?
Uh huh .
HH:
What , day to day?
Right. Oh, ye ah. Day to d ay . Day to d ay is right. We don't
know where we we r e gonna stay .
so met i mes we goin' to Au sti n .
We l eave he re. We gai n ' to ...
We don't know where we .. . we ' re go nna
stop . We get in Aust in, and go in th e b l ack n eighborhood and ask
( so unds l ike a pop top can that is be i ng opened) question ... you get
... room s or get a hotel or mote l , what ever, you know. Th a t' s the
way it was with Don. But h e . . . Bo b Green. I h ave . . . I know where
I 'm gain ' t o be ... what hotel we ' re s to ppin ' at , you kn ow ... tel ephon e
number ...
SH:
HH:
SH :
HH:
SH:
HH:
can tell you how much yo u' re go nn a ge t paid and wh en or . ..
Right. (Laugh ter).
You didn't know THAT .. . ?
(Lau gh ter) .
in the '30's !
( La u ght er). No . Nope . Yup . And we weren ' t the only ban d, you
know. Count Ba . .. Basi e ba sica ll y di d t h e same thing .
if h e ' d ge t paid. And Bobby ...
He d i dn' t know
HALL 40
SH: Right.
Hll : the other big bands didn ' t know.
SH: Yeah, I think Don was t e llin ' me about havin ' to h elp Basie
get out of Little Ro ck once.
HH : Yeah . It I s .. .
SH: It went bust and s t randed and le ft you all ge ttin '
where was it .. . Kansas City or ... someplace?
HH:
SH:
HH:
No . Okl a homa .
Ok l ahoma City?
Ye ah. ( Pause)
Oklahoma.
You exp ect e d that , man, it . . .
s trand ed,
SH: You think the musici ans of today coul d put up with t hose
c ir cums t a nces . . . to ma k e a 1 i vin ' . .. li k e you did way back i n th e ' 30 ' s?
HH: I doubt it .
SH : You don't t h ink ...
HH: I don't think th ey wou l d . I don ' t think they wou ld .
SH: We ll, do you think t hose circumstances drove a lo t of musicians
out of the bus i nes s as we ll as .. .
l!H: Yes.
SH: get tin' mar ri ed and settlin ' down?
HH: Rig h t .
SH: It was just.
HH: Oh, yes .
SH: tough.
HH: It was tough. Yeah.
SH: And .. . t h e s ur vivi ors were ... maybe th e bes t on es t o
because they were willing to p u t up with whatever .
HH: Yes . Yes .
s urv i ve , t hou gh ,
HALL 41
SH: to mak e a livin' ?
HH: Then, t oo ... then, too, you see , in t his .. . in t his . .. busine ss
even ... even today, before you es tabli sh yourself. If you ge t married ,
then you're s unk, you know , be cause ... because you have to be h ome
if yo u ... esp ecia l ly if they h ave a ch ild. You can 't run all over
the world, I mean, how you gonna support yourfamily ... or your wife
and your kid s, you kn ow , I mean .. . ' cau se . . . a l o t of tim e s when
your wife ain ' t work i n', she have children. If she have two, then
th at ' s for th e worse , you know .
SH: Right.
HH: If . .. if she does, she go t to pay somebody to take care of t h e
kid s f or h er. Th en you hav e to get a home or a partment or what have
you and th at runs to r ent . And a man has to be workin ' , has to be
mak i n' money .
you know.
And h e can' t run a l l ove r t he count r y like that,
SH: You know Dan ' s . .. Don Albert ' s neighbor , Mr. MacNeil , is tha t
his n ame? He had a band, j azz band in San Antonio in the ' 20 ' s .
Hear of any of ' em? He's in his eighties now .
HH: Yeah.
SH: And h e had a band and he go t marr i ed a nd hi s wi fe mad e him quit .
He just fold ed up th e band righ t then and went to work.
HH: Yeah . That ' s ri ght. He ll, yeah.
SH: I think he kinda regrets it sometimes.
HH : ( Laught e r) . Ai n't that a lway s .. . when yo u h av e c h ildren , espec i a l ly .
Yeah.
SH : I'm gonna ta l k with him because . . .
HH: Because ... because a lot of ' em, a l ot of musicians i n New York
HALL 42
had to do the same thing, you know. There was nothin' happenin'
and that ' s the only way they could half way make a de cent livin'
was to run, go ... go from town to town.
SH: Yeah, even New York doesn ' t support many jazz mu ... musicians,
do es it?
HH : We 1 1 , now t h e y d o . But , I me an , then . . . you . . .
SH: Yeah. There have been quite a few new jazz joints ...
HH : Yeah .
SH: open . .. like Crawdaddy ' s and some ... some others .
/
HH: That's r ight. But they had mor e places to work in New York ...
like dance halls and clubs and what have you ...
SH: Uh huh.
HH:
man,
You see. And the c l ub work, th e guy that's workin ' in a club ,
it ... it was hard. You worked from eight a t night ' til four
in th e morn i ng.
SH: Uh huh.
HH:
SH:
And had three s h ows a ni ght to do, you know.
This i s kind of a .. .
(Unintelligible).
HH: And thi s was . .. this wasn't a ... just a couple of acts , man.
This was a whol e production.
SH: This is a show band!
HH:
SH:
Show band!
Yeah.
Yeah.
HH: No, th e dance bands did, . . did th e show and ev e ryt h ing else.
SH: Uh huh .
HH : One band did the whole thing.
..... -
(.-
HALL 43
SH: Yeah , not much break time in there then.
HH : No. No.
SH: Eight so lid hours?
HH: That ' s right. And that was s . . . s . . . some six or seven nights
a week ... over there.
SH: We ll, how did th e . .. you and Anne were marri e d in when , 192 ... ' 7 1 ?
HH: 1931.
SH: '31 . OK, so you were married , a n d on th e road t here for eigh t
or nine year s.
some?
HH: Right.
SH: or .. . ?
Did that mak e it d i fficult? Did sh e travel with y ou
HH : No , it didn 't ... i t . .. it . . . i t was difficult in a way , but we
were bot h . .. we didn ' t h a ve any c hildr en, I mean, and she was workin '
. . . and I was work i n', so weren ' t de penden t , as far as money was
concerned, on each other, you know. She didn 't depend on me for
any h e lp . And . . . of course, you know, it . .. it . .. it was rough, you know .
SH: Uh huh .
HH: Had to be away from your wi fe .
SH: Right. How did you and Anne meet?
HH: My sister introduced me to her, you know. I k n ew her sister .
Her sister was ma rr ied t o, at that time s he was marrie d to a mortician .
SH: Did Anne live ... did s h e live in New Orleans, th en?
HH: No , she was he re i n Texas.
SH: Right here in San Anton io .
HH: No , I met her here.
SH: In San Anto n io?
HALL 44
HH: in San Antonio. Yes, I met he r here in San Antonio. I n fact,
this is her home.
SH: Yeah. Boerne.
HH: This is her home.
SH: Yeah.
HH: It gave me some time to listen to my ••• that's what made it
rough , you know.
SH: Those were the good ole' days.
HH: (Laughter). That's what they call it, but I ••• not to me,
man.
SH: You much prefer to •••
HH: Those were rough days.
SH: Yeah. Well, people i n the '30's didn't have that much spare
money to spend •••
HH: I know it.
SH: on entertainment •••
HH: I know it. I know it.
SH: did they?
HH: I know it.
SH: So, I guess you •• you all were lucky to make ANY kind of
livin' out of it?
HH: Well, what we were doin', you see, our group was a
cooperative group in a way, you see. We were a bunch of little
kids but we had enough sense t o know that's
where ••• we had to live and we had to travel. You 're goin ' to
work. You were gonna have to have money to •••
SH: You bought a bus?
HH: Oh, I forgot to tell you the story about the bus. We was
livin ' at Shadowland •••
HALL 45
SH: That was in San Antonio?
HH: Yeah .
SH: Uh huh.
HH: And ••• where was I? I was in San Antonio then.
SH: Yeah.
HH: And we were at least, oh , at least two years, a
long ••. and as ••• how am I goin' to say this because •••
(laughter) •••
SH: No, go ahead and say it.
HH: They •• • they ••• they. All right.
SH: Tell it the way it was.
HH : You know, they were gamblin' •••
SH : Oh, yeah.
HH: and they had a lot of ••• they had one ••• i n Galveston and
places like that. They were gamblin' so the guy would go into the
back and win him a little money , come up and give us a tip, you
know what I mean ••• the band ••• play this, play that, play that.
Well, we had ••• have enough money to buy an old used bus. And so
we ••. that's what we did. We bought ••• we bought the bus.
SH: The band bought the bus.
HH: Uh huh.
SH: And that's h ow we'd travel. Well, whenever we'd do a job,
like if you come into San Antonio t o do a job we'd ••• the
guys ••• it was so much taken out of ••• that money for transportation
for the bus •••
SH: Uh huh.
HH: That taken care of first, so we can get to the next town.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: And what's left, then we divide it.
HALL 46
SH: And everybody got the same pay.
HH: Yeah. Yeah. That's how we did it .
SH: Whatever .. .
HH: That's ... that's why we were fortunate, you know what I me a n, we
v.Jere lucky. That' s ... a lot of bands, I mean like, get s tranded on
the road. We never did get stranded ... not to the point that we didn't
have somethin' to eat or couldn't move.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: You see.
SH: What was a good night's pay for you, say, mid- 1 30's?
HH: A good night's pay was ... would be about ten ... fifteen dollars
a nigh t.
SH : And a bad night wou l d be, what, i f you ... say , if you ... ?
HH: A dollar and a half ... two dollar s , maybe .
SH: And that was s hared around equally ...
HH: Yeah .
SH: whatever '~as ma de ... in c ludin' th e le a d er ... ?
HH : Includin' Don .
SH: Right.
HH: At that time , we ha d . .. we had a very b i g band and ... from thirt een
up to s event een men, you know. We were carryin' two singers , too .
SH: Now, with th at band you played alto and baritone?
HH: Yeah . Alto, baritone c l arinet, soprano sax . I had a ll those
instrument s . (Laught er ).
SH: I didn't know you played with ... ? (Laughter)
HH: ( La u ghter) . Well, that was ... at one time , you know, th at were ...
three s opranos in th e b and, I mean, wh en th ey had three sax, of c ourse,
HALL 47
HH: the family had four sax. Yeah.
SH: Who did your band's arrangements ••• the Don Albert Band?
HH: Lloyd Glen. You remember Lloyd Glen ?
SH: No, I never met him.
HH: He was in California. Well, he made ••• he made some things
for small groups including rock n' roll, rhythm n ' blues type
things.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: He made a couple of ••• good things out there, you know. But
he ••• he did the arrangin'. He and Jay Golsen and ••• I probably
got ••• I did a little thing myself. Not too much.
SH: You didn't do much writing?
HH: No. I ••• I didn't have the training to do writing, but I had
the ideas. So, what I'd do, I'd write down a melody.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: And do this, you know, like ••• like playin' ••• and the piano
player would predict changes and write the parts f or the other
guys.
SH: Yeah. You'd do the charts themselves, but you would do the
central idea.
HH: Right. Right.
SH: Who were some of th other musicians in the band? Alberts'
Band? Cottrell?
HH: Cottrell, , Ferdinand , he was a banjo player •••
Albert, Fats Martin, that's the one that was workin' down at
the •.• at The Trop i cs , you know.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: During the war •••
SH: he was the drummer.
HALL 48
HH: Yeah, he was the drummer. Lloyd Lynn was the pianist at one
time, and other times it was Jay Golsen, at the first piano, we
had a he came down there, New Orleans, and ••• from what I can
understand, he got stranded down there. He was in one of the
shows, you know what I mean, and he stayed there, and he worked.
Good piano player, too. Good musician. And that's •• • the first
piano ••• the first piano player we had. And myself •.• and we had
Joe Tiller, saxaphone player out of Little Rock. We had •••
James •.• Dink, we called him, Dink Taylor, another saxaphone
player. We had a couple boys out of, I'm tryin' t o think •••
Patterson ••• Gus Patterson, out of Beaumont. At different times,
we had different guys, you know.
SH: Yeah. Well, did the band change quite a bit off and on
or ••. ?
HH: Oh, yeah. We had Jimmy
and ••• Alvin Alacorn, trumpet.
SH: He's still in New Orleans?
at one time. Tenor saxaphone
HH: Yes. He's still playin'. Billy Douglas was one of the
trumpet players. He ••• came ••• we ••• we picked him up some
afternoon. He's one of the Carolina things or ••• and, you
know, just a bunch of guys, you know.
SH: Well, is this ••• then cooperative band, is ••. everybody, you
know, you're on the bus t ogether all the time, you slept in the
bus, you spent an enormous amount of time together. Did ••• did you
get pretty tired of the other people or ••• how did that personality
aspect of it work out?
HH: Well, it worked out ••• it was pretty good for a bunch of
youngsters, you know, because we ••• we were .•• at that time,
musicians were more dedicated than they are today, you know.
Because •.. well, it was
HA LL 49
more like ... it was more like a fami ly, then.
SH: Uh huh.
HH: All th e bands were togeth er. It was hard to . .. b e cause Basie
... Basie want ed me to come with him on . . . on bar iton e sax when he was
in ... first went t o New York I wouldn 't le ave Don.
(Laughter) . And that h appene d to a lot of other guys .
SH: You didn 't lik e change in fami lies?
HH: No . Yeah. (Laught er)
SH: Did you a ll ever have any battles with the band? Say, you
and Basie bein' in th e same t own or have any jam sessions or cut tin'
c onte s ts or ... ?
HH: I don't rememb er No, I don't thin k we eve r did th a t.
Yeah . Because, you know , l ike . . . you h ave to have a l ot of money,
I mean, to ... had ... t'wa sn't enough people dancin' and I was . ..
SH: Uh huh .
HH: you know, pay that kind of money. The only p l ace that probab l y
it cou l d have happ e n e d , I ... I though t was th at paid more money than
anyplace was West Vir gini a . All the b ands were gain ' through West
Virginia because you see th e coa l min es wer e in operat i on and every-body
SH:
HH:
was you know ... h ard.
Uh huh. There was money there .
Money there. Yeah . And you won ' t beli eve i t , bu t we were
gettin ' like t wo ... two dollars and eight y cent s .. . a couple which was
a lot of money then.
SH: Wow. Just for . .. dance?
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
SH: And yo u a ll .. . the band would sp l it wi t h the club or the sponso r
or .. . ?
HALL 50
HH: Yeah, the sponsor ••. club, you know. We made an agreement
with whoever sponsored the dance at •.•
SH: Uh huh.
HH: whatever town and we'd get a percentage of whatever comes in
the hall and we ••• we just, you know • We sent ••• we used to
have our own placards for advertising. And make a date and •••
where it was and we just ••. let's see, partly •••
SH: Uh huh.
HH: it was made out as Don Albert's Band and all you had to
put ••. what time the dance was strtin' and ••• you know, put that •••
and put 'ern out.
SH: What type of music did that band play? How would you
surnrnar. tze ••..?
HH: The big bands type.
SH: Big band ••. Ellington, Basie •••
HH: Yeah. All that.
SH: Lunceford ••• ?
HH: Yeah. Yeah. Sornethin', well it (Clock strikes half hour)
wasn't exactly that same style, but, I mean, it was a lot o f
things we'd ••• we'd copy, you know, sornethin' we'd copy and
sornethin' we have out own •••
SH: Right.
HH: tunes, you know.
SH: Well, all bands would borrow from •••
HH: Yeah ••• borrow from each other .
SH: each other.
HH: Yeah. Yeah.
SH : Which was ••• rnight take somebody else's idea and improve on it
or •••
HALL 51
HH: Right.
SH: change it or whatever. (Pause) If there's anything you had
to ... to do over, what would you do? Would you change any thin g?
HH: No.
SH: Satisfied?
HH: Satisfied with my life. Yes. Yeah.
SH: That's good. That ' s ...
HH: That's happiness , you know. That's doin' the things in life
th at ... that you want to do and are happy doin', nothin's more
rewarding than that, even if you 're not maki n ' any money.
SH: Right. Well, money is ...
HH: Isn't everything, be l ieve me when I tell you . ..
SH: It ' s not as ....
(Laughter)
HH: It helps, but I mean, it ' s .. . it's not doin ' .. . you can be makin '
all the money in t h e world, you know, that doesn't help you.
SH: I th ink you .. . you've done an admirable job of doin' what you want
to do and doing it your way.
HH: Uh huh.
SH: Not many people.
HH: I know that.
SH: are strong enough to do it .
HH: I know that. Yeah. So many very un h appy p eople ... th ere ' s a lot
of peop l e come ... come up to the bandstand sometime wh ere we ' d be play in'
and thc .. they 'd say, "If yo u can't really enjoy what you ' re doin' . . . "
and you say, "I wish I could feel l ike that" .. . and t his guy want ed
to be a millionaire. you know.
SH: Yeah.
HALL 5 2
HH: He'd rath e r be in your shoes than in his shoes because he's
got all this money, but h e ' s ... but he' s unhappy.
SH: Yeah, h e doesn't know it him s elf.
HH: No.
SH: Or ... or maybe what h e want s to do.
HH: That 's it.
SH: But you knew early on wha t you wanted to do?
HH: Oh, yes . Oh, yes.
SH: Be fore you went profess ional, yo u knew ?
HH: Right.
SH: You decided, you and Robert . ...
HH : We ll, Rob e rt and I, Robert got marr ied early and he, you know ...
had c hildr e n. He h ad to g i ve it up.
SH : Were you a nd Edmund the only ones who stayed professional?
HH: Right .
... he' s
Right. And ... Robe r t h ad to g i ve up hi s mus ic and h e ' s
to tears and ... (laughter) ...
SH:
HH:
SH:
Yeah. When did h e ... when did h e stop?
Oh, Rob ert stopped i n hi s 30 ' s
Yeah . Wh at'd he do?
, Yeah.
HH: He worked at ... h e worked at the Post Office for a whil e , and
th e n h e was a cabinet -maker, and h e ' s . .. h e 's a carpenter and he' s
done . .. very h andy.
SH: Yeah.
HH:
SH: Do es h e play at a ll ? I mean, wh e n h e qui t, he just quit?
HH: J ust quit. Yeah.
SH: Th at ' s too bad . That ' s sad.
HALL 53
HH: Wel l , t hat ' s what happen ed to a lot of musicians .. . they had to do
that, you know .... a lot of musician s .
SH: Did you ever play with say, Louis or
HH: I recorded with . .. in Europe .
SH: Oh. When was that ?
HH: When I wa s there with Sammy Price in '50 .. . 195 6 .
SH:
HH:
Th a t was when
Yeah .
was livin' in Paris ?
or . .. ?
SH: Wel l , that was not too long before he died? Didn 't h e die in
the late ' SO' s? Early ' 6 0 's ?
HH: I would imagine it wasn ' t long after ... I don ' t t hink it was too
long after that.
SH: What did you think o f h im? Did you have a chance t o know hi m?
HH: No . Not t oo much. I n eve r . .. it ' s the first time I ever .. . I . .. I
had met him b efore , you know, I mean . . ..
Sh: Uh huh,
HH : I mean, but he was ... h e was well , like he ' s ... what h e was doin ',
man, it was well d one. Ye ah.
SH: He ' s ... a pretty forceful personality ...
HH: I liked him. I liked him .
SH: He 1 s .. .
HH: Very .. . yeah.
SH: Wasn 't h e ?
Throughout t h e tape, on both si des, there is a co ns is t ent back ground
of c la cki n g dishes and two female voices.
E:.Y\J. 0~ 'S: J ~..,_ -